@@debater452that’s like saying something like the Red wedding wouldn’t have worked. They easily could’ve put in another child or even a doll in and there was no reason to cut the Sophie’s choice. The narrative choice to frame it from B&Cs instead of Heleana is also pure insanity and clearly only done to make her pain seem less.
@@sofiasz2915 The Red wedding didn't kill a child on screen that is a huge difference. How on earth can you include a toddler in a scene like this and not traumatice it for life. A doll would be super uncovincing. Some scenes just aren't meant to be adapted
@@debater452nonsense as the aged down all the children they could’ve made Maelor a baby- and all babies so far have been dolls. They could’ve used the one for Bealon and Joffrey. It really wouldn’t have made that much different especially as you don’t see the child actors for most of the scene. The focus should’ve been on Heleana anyway. Also no reason to cut out her offering her life. This is so clearly done to downplay the event- which is what they do for the rest of the season.
@@sofiasz2915 Heleana not offering her life makes sence in the scene. She knows that wouldn't work so she tries to bribe them instaed. Also it's heavily implied Heleana kne this would happen. None of the babies have had the relevance of Malor and none of the screen time and focus so you really can't do this with a doll. Major actually has a role unlike Bealon
After the blood and cheese incident, Helena went about her day as if she didnt lose a child. Same with alicent. She literally lost a grand child, and shes acting like nothing happened. They beheaded your child/grandchild, the silent sisters had to sew the severed head back to the body for the funeral.
To be honest what for me is the biggest issue is the fact that they decided to put Alicent riding Criston at the end of it. Not only does it kill every tension the scene has (and why would you want to do that as a writer?!) it turns the entire event into a joke. It’s also incredibly tasteless. It feels like they directly did that to make B&C less and to blame the Greens for it by making them hypocrites and pretending they are more to blame than the Blacks for the event. The worst thing about this is that the Alicole affair makes very little sense for either character especially so soon after Viserys died. The writers admit to this basically by not showing how their affair started- because frankly they don’t know either. The insistance to only concentrate on the sexual part of it is another way to further discredit any green sympathy people could have. Funnily enough with their obsession in making the Greens not only evil but incompetent like they clearly wanted they did not manage to build the Blacks up- but make them look even more incompetent. All of their victories are served to them and they basically manage to do nothing. This season was absolutely shamefully bad. Clearly the writers wanted to write their own story instead the one they were paid to adopt
Why was alicent sleeping with criston Cole? To paint her as bad. The writers are too damn baised. They hate the greens so much and always potray them as evil.
I think they definitely wanted to tone things down and make the black side less evil. But I think a big part of the problem is not the scene itself. The deliberate murder of a child is a pretty big deal and so even the toned down version of the show has some heft. It is the follow up that fails. For the most part you could remove blood and cheese from the show and it would be almost no different. The estrangement with Daemon is easy to engineer for many reasons. The assassination plan for the Cargylls can easily happen another way. Plot wise this event meant nothing. And even worse for the story it does not impact the characters at all. Aegon is hurt yes, but his injuries overtake that plot massively. Alice my though? She doesn’t care. The people? They forget it within a couple of episodes. Helaena? Who knows. The crimes of the Blackwoods had more impact on the characters and plot then the murder of this child. In early GOT events had ripples that continued to affect things. Not this show. That is my big problem. Tl:dr the problem is the story is the same whether B+C happens or not!
What if the mad king forced Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen at the tourney at harrenhall to piss off the Starks the Baratheons and the Lannisters (as Cersei and Tywin wanted to marry into the royal family)
This scene was purposefully downgraded for their bs Rhaenicent meeting/betrayal in 2x08. Do you honestly think that Alicent would have had anything to do with Rhaenyra if she was present to her grandson’s death like she was in the book (read: real) version?
What went wrong is tye same thing that seems to be going wrong with a few things on the show, they are afraid to make the queen look bad. George writes grey characters you know like real humans. She supposed to be angry vengeful and the driving force behind her army instead daemon and cole are the ones forcing war on everyone. It makes her a much less interesting and probably contrary to what they were trying a weak and less likable character. Plus its less believable, are you more likely to be angry and vengeful at someone who stole your birth right and murdered your son, or are you going to sneak in hold hands and try to talk calmly
What went wrong with the red wedding? I mean the north wasn't cowering in fear, survivors of the starks, and the death of the Frey family, that's an excellent example of this is what happens when you side with the Lannisters . I know "technically" the red wedding did its job short term but look at the long term ramifications of this, it doesn't benefit the Lannisters
@@professorsassafras it did if you really think about it. The issue was however that the long term effects never came into play as Tywin died and Tyrion escaped. First the north and the riverlands had a bunch of infighting they needed tontake care of as they intially gave those regions to the Freys and the Boltons they had to solve those issues. In that time thisnregionndue to infighting is no concern so the Lannisters can take care of Stannis. Also it very much was the plan to take the North back. Tywin probably betted that the North would be bleed dry at some point with so many infightings which gives him the chance to sweep in an put a “real” stark in Winterfell. The kid of Sansa and Tywin. Clearly what Tywin had planned for the North was not done he just died before he could do most of the stuff
I just can't find a single word that I don't agree with. Especially the part about everything happens by accident and the characters are just there to witness it without truly enacting anything.
I couldnt care less about Blood and Chese ,if they weren't at all it would had been far better Give us dragons , battles ,castles and good dialogue , not two old weirdos walking trow corridors and staring at a child Who thinks the show should had been animated ( Blood of zeus style) let me know down below
Meh I am fine with how the scene was done. It was still quite emotionaly effective and it did it's job. The thing I hated was how abnoux the fanbase has been about it. During this season discussion was misserable and afful The season was a mix bag over all, but people are acting like if the changes killed their cat or something
While I do agree that the discussion around season 2 was toxic and people often overreacted to small changes, this one is just so disappointing to watch if you have read the books. It's a brutal scene but I literally had to laugh and just felt disappointed when the whole "which one is the boy?" Shit came up... The relativ disappointing is one thing. Another is the lack of logic (the which one is the boy conflict makes no sense as they could just check) and biggest issue is the resulting lack of impact. They changed the overall story so much that this scene goes from igniting a war of annihilation with the Tagaryian family, with no quarter given on either side to... Well being forgotten by episode 3 and having next to no impact on the overall story. It's crazy to me how you can write a story with a scene like this and then pretend like it didn't happen for the test of your story when it should be one of the main drivers of conflict within your story. That's also why it had to be not just good but great. The scene is so pivotal to the story as a whole that it being mediocre diminishes so many things that are still to come. I could mention Daemon not being allowed to be evil here (taking vengeance would have fit his character and would have made him a more interesting character overall. Evil but with some good parts about him and enough charisma to still have us wanting for him to be good). Alison not being part of it (this I personally wouldn't mind if the scene overall was better) B&C being utterly incompetent and many smaller details.
True, these pussies are so fragile. They find shit to cry about when they are die hard fans and will be throwing a house party for s3 e1. And after they'll go on social media and bitch cry and complain because whining is fun for these sensitive nerds
While i agree that scene does break the tone i think the reveal that Cole was "Busy" is partly the reason this whole assassination could happen in the first place.
@@joshthomasmoorenew but that’s not the case in the book though. That is also another issue I have with the scene instead of acknowlediging what a tragedy this event is they are quick to push blame to the greens so the Blacks look better (while dumbing them down because the plan now looks idiotic and only worked due to incompetency on the greens side). The whole scene at the end breaks the tension of the scene (which is a terrible creative decision because you would want the scene to hit as a writer) and even makes it look less serious. So obvioulsy done to strip the impact from the event. Which they after like two episodes pretend never happened.
Even if RHaenyra wouldn't be willing to kill her children, Daemon definitely would ... he killed her grandchild after all and Rhaenyra was his puppet and way of accessing the throne. But Rhaenyra did asked for a literally child to be "sharply questioned" (tortured) and arranged for the death of an innocent peasant so she could marry her uncle. She aligned with Daemon and rhaenys, who killed countless innocents in the dragon pit. Rhaenyra could be more willing to kill than people realize. And even if not, Allicent would be gambling on a person who betrayed her trust repeatedly.
Barring Maelor's absence, how the show did Blood and Cheese... is fine. There's one thing that a lot of book purists are forgetting/choosing to ignore when it comes to Fire and Blood... it's not the DEFINITIVE truth of the events it depicts. It's being written over 150 years AFTER the Dance, it only has three historical sources to draw all its info from, ALL of them are going to be biased, and ALL of them are going to miss context other sources might have, hell, there are going to be events that all three know about, for which none were present, thus, NOBODY has the full context of them.
Well, I generally disagree with the changes I understand why they had to happen. The rules for child actors have changed dramatically for a good reason. And they did explain why those changes were made. The following episode 2 season 2 was awesome. Episode 8 of season 2 is undefendable.
The thing is the scene can easily be done while keeping your childactors safe. Think about the scene they gave us. How much did you see of those two kids? Barely anything because they were sleeping and that's how you can have the original murder scene as well without traumatising your actors. Have them sleep. Give us a close up of them at some point and simply use dolls for the parts where they make the mother choose (so they don't even have to hear the conversation). When it comes to the murder you just have blood walk over to the bed sword drawn. Close up of the actual kid sleeping, then cut to blood from a wife angle again decapitating a doll in the bed/stabbing it (doesn't really matter). You can even cut away right before the strike hits and give us reaction shots of the characters in the room. I'm no director but if I can figure out a low budget and damned easy way to shoot this scene without the child actors even in the room for any of the nasty bits then these guys being paid a tonne of money sure can.
6:33 I will always hate the “it’s too gruesome” argument. Season 1 Episode 1 bran was pushed from a tower, The red wedding starts with an over the top kill of a pregnant woman, Heck even golden Jon Snow HUNG a boy “younger than bran”… Shireen was burnt and unlike Varys we weren’t spared her screams.
They def toned it down because they toned down the actions of the Blacks. Daemon is literally forgiven by Rhaenyra after a few weeks for killing a young child who was her NEPHEW.
They toned it down cause they don't want their darling rhaenyra to look bad in the eyes of the viewers.
Or meaby because the original scene might not really work on a tv show that is trying to reach a massive audience
@@debater452that’s like saying something like the Red wedding wouldn’t have worked. They easily could’ve put in another child or even a doll in and there was no reason to cut the Sophie’s choice.
The narrative choice to frame it from B&Cs instead of Heleana is also pure insanity and clearly only done to make her pain seem less.
@@sofiasz2915 The Red wedding didn't kill a child on screen that is a huge difference. How on earth can you include a toddler in a scene like this and not traumatice it for life. A doll would be super uncovincing. Some scenes just aren't meant to be adapted
@@debater452nonsense as the aged down all the children they could’ve made Maelor a baby- and all babies so far have been dolls. They could’ve used the one for Bealon and Joffrey.
It really wouldn’t have made that much different especially as you don’t see the child actors for most of the scene. The focus should’ve been on Heleana anyway.
Also no reason to cut out her offering her life. This is so clearly done to downplay the event- which is what they do for the rest of the season.
@@sofiasz2915 Heleana not offering her life makes sence in the scene. She knows that wouldn't work so she tries to bribe them instaed. Also it's heavily implied Heleana kne this would happen. None of the babies have had the relevance of Malor and none of the screen time and focus so you really can't do this with a doll. Major actually has a role unlike Bealon
After the blood and cheese incident, Helena went about her day as if she didnt lose a child.
Same with alicent. She literally lost a grand child, and shes acting like nothing happened.
They beheaded your child/grandchild, the silent sisters had to sew the severed head back to the body for the funeral.
yea heleana shoudlve been locked in her bed chamber crying hysterically for the rest of the season but she acted like it wasnt even that big of a deal
@@singstreetcar5881 they acted same way the showrunner felt
To be honest what for me is the biggest issue is the fact that they decided to put Alicent riding Criston at the end of it. Not only does it kill every tension the scene has (and why would you want to do that as a writer?!) it turns the entire event into a joke. It’s also incredibly tasteless.
It feels like they directly did that to make B&C less and to blame the Greens for it by making them hypocrites and pretending they are more to blame than the Blacks for the event.
The worst thing about this is that the Alicole affair makes very little sense for either character especially so soon after Viserys died. The writers admit to this basically by not showing how their affair started- because frankly they don’t know either.
The insistance to only concentrate on the sexual part of it is another way to further discredit any green sympathy people could have.
Funnily enough with their obsession in making the Greens not only evil but incompetent like they clearly wanted they did not manage to build the Blacks up- but make them look even more incompetent. All of their victories are served to them and they basically manage to do nothing.
This season was absolutely shamefully bad. Clearly the writers wanted to write their own story instead the one they were paid to adopt
Instead of a grisly child murderer, they chose to assault our eyeballs with Daemon committing sweet-home-Alabama on his mom's ghost.
I think we can all agree the biggest thing wrong with this whole scene is the kicking of the dog
Why was alicent sleeping with criston Cole? To paint her as bad.
The writers are too damn baised. They hate the greens so much and always potray them as evil.
I gotta say, Thom, you have a great voice for narration.
I think they definitely wanted to tone things down and make the black side less evil. But I think a big part of the problem is not the scene itself. The deliberate murder of a child is a pretty big deal and so even the toned down version of the show has some heft.
It is the follow up that fails.
For the most part you could remove blood and cheese from the show and it would be almost no different. The estrangement with Daemon is easy to engineer for many reasons. The assassination plan for the Cargylls can easily happen another way. Plot wise this event meant nothing.
And even worse for the story it does not impact the characters at all. Aegon is hurt yes, but his injuries overtake that plot massively. Alice my though? She doesn’t care. The people? They forget it within a couple of episodes. Helaena? Who knows. The crimes of the Blackwoods had more impact on the characters and plot then the murder of this child.
In early GOT events had ripples that continued to affect things. Not this show. That is my big problem.
Tl:dr the problem is the story is the same whether B+C happens or not!
Oh look, Thom is back 😊
This will be a never ending series if the writers keep doing what their doing
What if the mad king forced Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen at the tourney at harrenhall to piss off the Starks the Baratheons and the Lannisters (as Cersei and Tywin wanted to marry into the royal family)
What if Apollyon from For Honor was in Game of Thrones?
This scene was purposefully downgraded for their bs Rhaenicent meeting/betrayal in 2x08. Do you honestly think that Alicent would have had anything to do with Rhaenyra if she was present to her grandson’s death like she was in the book (read: real) version?
Ah, lovely. A reminder of one of the most horrific moments of the show. Thanks for that ^^;
Thom we love you!
What went wrong is tye same thing that seems to be going wrong with a few things on the show, they are afraid to make the queen look bad. George writes grey characters you know like real humans. She supposed to be angry vengeful and the driving force behind her army instead daemon and cole are the ones forcing war on everyone. It makes her a much less interesting and probably contrary to what they were trying a weak and less likable character. Plus its less believable, are you more likely to be angry and vengeful at someone who stole your birth right and murdered your son, or are you going to sneak in hold hands and try to talk calmly
I don't know how Daemon thought that Blood and Cheese were going to kill Aemond.
Wild right! I preferred how book versions just took what they could get or seemingly targeted the younger princes from the off - Thom
2nd video asking for best armies of GOT or even from the entire ASOIAF.
Comment for the algorithm God
A lot went wrong
What went wrong with the red wedding? I mean the north wasn't cowering in fear, survivors of the starks, and the death of the Frey family, that's an excellent example of this is what happens when you side with the Lannisters . I know "technically" the red wedding did its job short term but look at the long term ramifications of this, it doesn't benefit the Lannisters
@@professorsassafras it did if you really think about it. The issue was however that the long term effects never came into play as Tywin died and Tyrion escaped.
First the north and the riverlands had a bunch of infighting they needed tontake care of as they intially gave those regions to the Freys and the Boltons they had to solve those issues. In that time thisnregionndue to infighting is no concern so the Lannisters can take care of Stannis.
Also it very much was the plan to take the North back. Tywin probably betted that the North would be bleed dry at some point with so many infightings which gives him the chance to sweep in an put a “real” stark in Winterfell. The kid of Sansa and Tywin. Clearly what Tywin had planned for the North was not done he just died before he could do most of the stuff
@@sofiasz2915 ahh so he did actually have a plan for that. I apologize Tywin
I just can't find a single word that I don't agree with. Especially the part about everything happens by accident and the characters are just there to witness it without truly enacting anything.
I’m trying to be civil in the comments…. I’m trying!!!
Maegor/Maelor whatever his name is was the worst mistake according to George but he seems more hung up on the Sheepstealer debacle
I couldnt care less about Blood and Chese ,if they weren't at all it would had been far better
Give us dragons , battles ,castles and good dialogue , not two old weirdos walking trow corridors and staring at a child
Who thinks the show should had been animated ( Blood of zeus style) let me know down below
Im done with HoTD tbh, season 1 was fine, but season 2 feels very much like they cba with the books and are just gonna do whatever they want
Meh I am fine with how the scene was done. It was still quite emotionaly effective and it did it's job. The thing I hated was how abnoux the fanbase has been about it. During this season discussion was misserable and afful The season was a mix bag over all, but people are acting like if the changes killed their cat or something
While I do agree that the discussion around season 2 was toxic and people often overreacted to small changes, this one is just so disappointing to watch if you have read the books. It's a brutal scene but I literally had to laugh and just felt disappointed when the whole "which one is the boy?" Shit came up...
The relativ disappointing is one thing. Another is the lack of logic (the which one is the boy conflict makes no sense as they could just check) and biggest issue is the resulting lack of impact.
They changed the overall story so much that this scene goes from igniting a war of annihilation with the Tagaryian family, with no quarter given on either side to... Well being forgotten by episode 3 and having next to no impact on the overall story.
It's crazy to me how you can write a story with a scene like this and then pretend like it didn't happen for the test of your story when it should be one of the main drivers of conflict within your story.
That's also why it had to be not just good but great. The scene is so pivotal to the story as a whole that it being mediocre diminishes so many things that are still to come.
I could mention Daemon not being allowed to be evil here (taking vengeance would have fit his character and would have made him a more interesting character overall. Evil but with some good parts about him and enough charisma to still have us wanting for him to be good).
Alison not being part of it (this I personally wouldn't mind if the scene overall was better)
B&C being utterly incompetent and many smaller details.
True, these pussies are so fragile. They find shit to cry about when they are die hard fans and will be throwing a house party for s3 e1. And after they'll go on social media and bitch cry and complain because whining is fun for these sensitive nerds
ALOT
While i agree that scene does break the tone i think the reveal that Cole was "Busy" is partly the reason this whole assassination could happen in the first place.
@@joshthomasmoorenew but that’s not the case in the book though. That is also another issue I have with the scene instead of acknowlediging what a tragedy this event is they are quick to push blame to the greens so the Blacks look better (while dumbing them down because the plan now looks idiotic and only worked due to incompetency on the greens side).
The whole scene at the end breaks the tension of the scene (which is a terrible creative decision because you would want the scene to hit as a writer) and even makes it look less serious. So obvioulsy done to strip the impact from the event. Which they after like two episodes pretend never happened.
If alicent hadn’t of put aegon on the throne, they could of died anyway and no aegon is the rightful king
Even if RHaenyra wouldn't be willing to kill her children, Daemon definitely would ... he killed her grandchild after all and Rhaenyra was his puppet and way of accessing the throne. But Rhaenyra did asked for a literally child to be "sharply questioned" (tortured) and arranged for the death of an innocent peasant so she could marry her uncle. She aligned with Daemon and rhaenys, who killed countless innocents in the dragon pit.
Rhaenyra could be more willing to kill than people realize. And even if not, Allicent would be gambling on a person who betrayed her trust repeatedly.
Barring Maelor's absence, how the show did Blood and Cheese... is fine. There's one thing that a lot of book purists are forgetting/choosing to ignore when it comes to Fire and Blood... it's not the DEFINITIVE truth of the events it depicts. It's being written over 150 years AFTER the Dance, it only has three historical sources to draw all its info from, ALL of them are going to be biased, and ALL of them are going to miss context other sources might have, hell, there are going to be events that all three know about, for which none were present, thus, NOBODY has the full context of them.
Well, I generally disagree with the changes I understand why they had to happen. The rules for child actors have changed dramatically for a good reason. And they did explain why those changes were made. The following episode 2 season 2 was awesome. Episode 8 of season 2 is undefendable.
The thing is the scene can easily be done while keeping your childactors safe.
Think about the scene they gave us. How much did you see of those two kids?
Barely anything because they were sleeping and that's how you can have the original murder scene as well without traumatising your actors.
Have them sleep. Give us a close up of them at some point and simply use dolls for the parts where they make the mother choose (so they don't even have to hear the conversation).
When it comes to the murder you just have blood walk over to the bed sword drawn. Close up of the actual kid sleeping, then cut to blood from a wife angle again decapitating a doll in the bed/stabbing it (doesn't really matter).
You can even cut away right before the strike hits and give us reaction shots of the characters in the room.
I'm no director but if I can figure out a low budget and damned easy way to shoot this scene without the child actors even in the room for any of the nasty bits then these guys being paid a tonne of money sure can.
I hate that guys voice bring back the other guy it’s not entertaining the previous one makes the video
Don’t worry Karim. We’re never going to make that Star Wars video now. :)
P.s the other guy is called Liam ;)
-Thom
6:33 I will always hate the “it’s too gruesome” argument. Season 1 Episode 1 bran was pushed from a tower, The red wedding starts with an over the top kill of a pregnant woman, Heck even golden Jon Snow HUNG a boy “younger than bran”… Shireen was burnt and unlike Varys we weren’t spared her screams.
They def toned it down because they toned down the actions of the Blacks. Daemon is literally forgiven by Rhaenyra after a few weeks for killing a young child who was her NEPHEW.
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