When Gordon said he took a “risk” by promoting Montoya, I guess I interpreted that to mean that she had a reputation in Gotham as being by-the-book and incorruptible. And in a seedy cesspool like Gotham, that’s probably more of a liability than being gay or a minority could ever be. Also, I do kind of like how they keep explicit racism, sexism, and sexual orientation discrimination out of it. It helps to kind of “normalize” the idea of seeing a diverse community. Like yeah, it’s got the aesthetics of the 40’s, but there’s a very diverse cast that covers the entire morality spectrum. Like you pointed out, when Harley and Montoya kissed in the restaurant, it wasn’t played as this big controversial or even “empowering” moment. It was just a moment of intimacy between 2 adults, and wasn’t treated as anymore substantial or significant than if they had been a straight couple. It was seen in- and (hopefully) out-of-universe as relatively “normal”, and it should be. Also, this “lack of overt discrimination” (that’s the best way I can describe it) makes a lot of the stories about people’s struggles and potential falls from grace much more personal since the writers can’t just say, “Well, this character is queer and/or a minority, so they’ve had a hard life and this is why they’re bad.”
Thank you. Someone said it. It's kinda like the Sonic Boom joke with Knuckles about pointing out the undermining of social issues by pointing them out. If you need to make a big scene, one way or another, then you don't help your case or you just make it seem like you want to draw attention for one reason or another.
I think the "risk" actually was one of the rare references to discrimination (well, aside from everything with Gentleman Ghost), specifically her gender.
@@Compucles well this is set in 1939, in the days before Wonder Woman showed up...of course women in these roles would be a huge risk...and only six months before Robin shows up...as soon as the calendar changes from 1939 to 1940...you'll see a bird. The plane's already in Metropolis.
I really liked this version of Renee Montoya. She felt very similar to her original animated portral. A hard working, stoic cop who cares for her city, people and co workers. They also made her extra thicc so bonus pounts. She's amazing!
With her size she actually looks like a tough cop who could actually beat a Bullock if they actually came down to a fight with strength alone without having to use flying roundhouse kicks.
I think Montoya's admiration for Gordon is best summed up when she tells Harley that "He's been more of a father to me than mine ever was." It shows that she respects him not just as an officer of the law but also as a person, plus it gives us a hint into her family history that I hope will be explored more in season 2.
THANK YOU! As a queer person we don't want all our representation to be realistic, I want to see hate and slurs I just log on twitter, this world has so much fantastical that a little acceptance should be mundane I like this version of Montoya, I hope there is a redeemed Bullock who can partner with her (And maybe Kathy/Kate Kane)
@@SerumLake I agree this one is pretty irredeemable, but maybe time with Montoya? I guess I’m just used to Bullock being fundamentally good, if a slovenly asshole
@@SerumLake I think they could, I mean, don't get me wrong he's a terrible person, but I think they've done it in a way where it's clear most of that comes from Flass' influence on him, I bet he really could come to realize just how far he's fallen, and at least try to be better, eventually.
@@SerumLake i dont think we could see him completely redeemed within the next season but i would like to see him partnered with montoya and have him start on the path of redemption as though he does some awful things they are usually not his plan and he is doing what flass is telling him to do (although just following someone else's orders is certainly no excuse)
9:11. You man are spitting facts. Caped Crusader does not deserve all the hate. We get it, Penguin's a woman, Bullock is corrupt, Harley Quinn is somewhat creepy, Batman nearly shot a guy. And "My Adventures with Superman" gave us a Luthor with hair. This is an age of redesigns. Personally, I loved Caped Crusader. It's no BTAS, but I love the fact that this is close to the show Bruce Timm wanted to make. I love the fact that it's more edgy. And I love the fact that underutilized characters like Montoya, Papa Midnite and Onomatopoeia are given more time to shine. Although, I would love if they tackle serious issues in the future like racism and homophobia.
I think the people who hate a lot of that stuff are a vocal minority who aren't very big comic fans as they would be used to constant new universe = new interpretation by now. And I have to agree it's a missed opportunity for them to handle adversity with the characters as DC animated shows have historically had really good moments Of handling stuff like this sometimes with just a very powerful line. Like when cyborg was talking to Starfire in teen Titans about being different or that one Justice League episode with the old-timey superhero says "You're a credit to your people son to Jon Stewart". And that's not even going to mention all the countless great moments from static shock. Even the live action Watchmen show had this factor into it. I really like this version of Batman but I get a lot of the fan frustration. They were told it was going to be a more mature show set in the noir post ww2 1940s But what's the point of making a bar diverse cast in a show set in the '40s? If you're just going to use it as set dressing, they might as well have said it in the 2040s And have a noir cyberpunk show. It feels like they're trying to be so unoffensive that they're looping around to actually being offensive by pretending like these weren't issues in the 1940s And whitewashing historical issues of the time. I know it's not the Creator's intention to try and pretend like this wasn't an issue at the time And maybe Amazon gave them a hard and firm 'no' to showing this stuff, but I think it would have helped show the character's strength that guys like Bullock, Bruce, Wayne and Harvey dent are playing on easy mode compared to Renee Montoya, Barbara Gordon and even Flass. Like can you imagine next season Flass finally gets caught And Gordon says something like "Damn it Flass. I hope you know you've put our public image and relations behind by years." "Well Don't worry, the police can do some charity and get that all back Gordon" " I wasn't talking about the police Flass" Then detective Flass has a look of realization and shame on his face as he just looks down and he's being taken away by other officers.
I'm sure they will tackle those issues but at the same time Caped Crusader is bringing back the escapism people generally tune into fiction for. While the corruption is one thing, it's nice also seeing things like Renee Montoya and Harleen just being to just be and not have hate come their way. They're just two people on a date and that's really nice.
I don't know about you, but I'm tired of the self-loathing lesbian stereotype. There are a thousand stories about that. It's nice to see them just be themselves.
5:11 Maybe it's because everyone is holding their breath and basically expecting her to break under the pressure of her new Gotham role and promotion and either become corrupt, crazy, or depressed and self-loathing because she's stuck in a position under a corrupt authority that wishes nothing more than to break her down and make her their puppet and wield the Anti-Batman Campaign like a Hammer to a Bat-shaped nail. However, we both know if it takes a lot to break Barbara Gordon, then we know it'll take a ton to break Renée Montoya, and she WILL prevail and potentially even rise above and beyond Gordon's initial hopes and expectations.
"He's in every episode, he resolves most of the situations,and when other characters are on screen, they are mostly talking about him." ...Poochie the Dog?
I really love this take on Montoya, not only taken some elements from the Comic like her Saxuality but I do like the idea of making her a bigger woman, I Think its great having Characters who aren't the same copy and paste body-type we're used to seeing in Comic book Media for the last half Decade up until the 90s where the idea was being explored more.
And honestly? With her build it actually makes it look like her punches could legitimately hurt. There was a scene in the video where she threw one and it felt kinda believably powerful. I would struggle to imagine the same scene working animation-wise if she was pencil-thin. (I'm sure they could do it, and it's not like the show is ultra-realistic. It just felt more believable in motion, y'know? Something like that.)
Caped Crusader's Montoya (and most other characters from the show, take a look on Nocturna) seems right out of a page from "Love & Rockets", by the great Jaime Hernandez, specially its mid 80's era. Has anybody else noticed?
I’m in agreement with not leaning in on bigotry for her character. It has been done and we can be spared. I also like the ambiguity of her “chance”, since it has a lot of different meanings. I feel like this is a more fleshed out version of Renee that BTAS didn’t get around to, and yet gives her the BTAS treatment; stripping her character of things it doesn’t need so it is authentic and new. I’m looking forward to her character development, her continued relationship with Harley Q and how she will overcome her challenges, plus her relationship with Batman. The latter is leaning into season 2 of The Batman. I just hope it isn’t the basis for a Riddler introduction.
As you pointed out in an earlier video, this series takes place in the modern day and only has the Aesthetics of the 1930s, so the people up in arms about “historical inaccuracy” don’t have a leg to stand on.
I don't think this is set in modern day. Like Timm and Dini trying to make a "timeless" Batman with BTAS, I think this is meant to be ambiguous. But it really does just feel like 1940 because almost every single thing about it presents as 1940, EXCEPT for prejudice. And I can't fault people for wanting to just get away from that psychologically oppressive theme. Is it just a stylistic choice? Yes. Could they have made that clearer? Also yes. I personally wish they'd taken just a few more cues from other decades to really make it feels a smidge more anachronistic. Yeah, there's a few things like Batman's car phone and Selina's taser-knuckles, but it's a superhero story. There's always a few fantastical things thrown in. I mean, look at explicitly modern stories featuring giant robots and freeze rays. Superhero fiction is loaded with preposterous sci-fi. That element is almost non-existent in CC. BTAS did this really well, feeling like 7 decades smashed together. But this is still fine. That WW2-era has its own charm.
@@CapnAlces serum lake mentions in an earlier video that it’s taking place in the modern day, and that this modern day Gotham just has the Aesthetics of the 1930s, and he got that from an interview Bruce Timm did.
@@matthewterlaga3022 That still makes the use and lack of use of various kinds of technology rather weird. It's like most of the tech is from the 1950s, aside from a few things here and there from later periods but almost nothing beyond the early '90s.
In season 2 it would be interesting to see Montoya and Bullock partnered together after Flask gets pinned for Dents murder, and this change of partnership gives Bullock a chance to start to come around as a better cop after the 2 buttheads for the first half of the season. Once again much like how Bullock was placed as Gordan's partner in the comics and made to come around that way.
Hm... I've been very offput by ideas of a Bullock reform, but that's actually a great idea. Even if it doesn't work out, I'd like to see that partnership and watch the gears in his head start turning.
This is such a breath of fresh air. The vitriol flung at this show for being a bit different is so genuinely confusing, as if people watched a completely different show than I did.
They were watching a different show. They were watching "this isn't what I watched when I was young", which is almost the same, except you can only see things you think are bad.
I kinda felt that there was an almost fatherly relationship between Gordon and Montoya. Almost. something aboout how she addresses Barbra Gordon. there was a ting of jealousy or envy about where Barbra grew up and her life. Maybe she wanted JIm to be her farther. I mean shes fallowing in his footsteps more than some public attorney
I wouldn't say they reworked Montoya from her comics counterpart as much as I'd say they restored her closer to her origins on "Batman: The Animated Series" while bumping her status up to that of a secondary character.
I haven't seen much of Montoya in the comics but I'm very familiar with her in BTAS where she's quite stoic, by-the-book and very competent; the CC version is very similar in that regard and felt very in-character to me.
The one thing I find odd (which is not even a problem, I think its funny) its the width of her shoulders, or rather the her shoulder width compared to her body. Again I have no trouble with it, it just stand out a lot to me for no particular reason.
This seems to be a popular idea, and it's warming me over to the potential of a Bullock redemption. Or maybe atonement would be a better word here, IDK?
I honestly wasn't too sure of this show after the first episode. But when I saw Montoya take charge and do some actual detective work, it really helped shift my view, and I knew that this was going to be something worth paying attention to.
I like this iteration hell I like many iterations of Montoya. But I have to ask this, Harley and her were paired if only briefly are they going to do the same thing with mainline Harley who will very much likely end up with Ivy at some point and have a moment that has Montaya have to decide between her feelings and her duty were she would arrest Harley which may I add will likely lead to Ivy intervening? Am I crazy for thinking that?
Was expecting the DCAU iteration's cut "P.O.V." backstory to be expressed here. 3:13: Did they have a kid? If so, they could be Project Batman Beyond material. 3:17: Wait, what? How? 3:25: WHAT?!? 3:48: But not Hartman Hips. 6:20: In a different universe, the one ticked off by the attempted bribe would be Harvey Bullock. 6:43: Any chance the show will lampshade the fact that she looks fat with her trenchcoat on? Anywho, she's still no Amanda Waller. 8:53: And then there's the Marstons, the polygamous folk who MADE Wonder Woman. For realism, Caped Crusader need not have aliens, even if Green Lantern Alan Scott can be a thing. Duty over Love: that's gonna be how Renee will most likely confront Harley when they reunite. But, I wonder, will there also be loathsome Death? 9:38: And also the basis for parodies like that diner on The Tick cartoon. Anyways, not into Gordon x Essen. The former shouldn't be an adulterer, while the latter should just be a platonic wingwoman.
That's like having Imperial warlordess Nataasi Daala becoming the Galactic Federation of Free Alliance's Chief of State in an apocryphal part of Star Wars Legends.
According to Bruce Timm: “Yvonne Frances gets her name from actress Frances Drake and the character she played in the classic 1935 shocker MAD LOVE, Yvonne Orlac.”
I heard that in BTAS, the writers originally wanted Montoya to be attracted to women. Too bad that idea was scrapped. I am glad Bruce Timm and all the other writers got a second chance in this show. They actually gave Renee more depth and character here. In BTAS, I only remembered her as the "lady cop".
Some of the stuff the mayor says to Jim Gordon makes me think that racism is not solved in this universe and as you said, some of what Flask and Bullock say, along with Gordon's commwnt could be race, gender or sexual persuasion. And a qay that is nice. It is up to the audience to figure out what they think is the "problem." But they do kind of need to realize there is an issue and that it is a multiple choice question where none of the above is NOT an option. And I don't think Brucie Timm's women didn't have hips. They lacked a waist. Yeahbthey had ine, but not one that was likely anatomically possible.
I think Caped Crusader is on course to introduce a second costumed hero for Batman to contend with in the next season, and Montoya as The Question i think would be perfect for it. I imagine going the angle of "GCPD's Batman", a vigilante that actually works with the police and plays by the book
Say, if you're interested would you consider checking out La'ron Readus' analysis video on Reene Montoya, Harley Quinn and Barbara Gordon from Batman: Cape Crusader ? He does mention that Renee Montoya was definitely up for the job and lists very fascinating reasons why these interpretations of the characters work so well.
Nitpick about her design (it is just a nitpick). Either she needed to wear a longer skirt, or a shorter coat or pants instead of a skirt or something to make it clear she is wearing SOMETHING under her coat. She looks like a flasher 90% of the time.
I would love to see if any of that change to the pd happens in this version. Time will tell of course. I liked the updates, didn't detract from the superhero exploits/growth arc at all, for me.
We really need an animated Montoya spin off series similar to the Gotham central series but not like the live action Gotham series. If anyone knows what I’m saying.
I just want to say thank you for these videos, because only one other person I know likes CC. The people i showed it to, didnt like it 😅 they all said "nothing happens" in the show (two fell asleep during the Clayface ep), but i heartily disagree
1 - This Gotham doesn't need racism and homophobia as problems - it has every other one. 2 - I got kind of annoyed with Comics' Montoya when they had her, as Police Commissioner, denounce Gordon. This was both on the basis of suddenly resenting someone she had always shown at least basic respect to, and that 'suddenly Gotham doesn't trust Batman because of Joker's annual mega-scheme' BS. 3 - Kind of ironic that they had her chafe under the self-loathing lesbian stereotype cliche for so long, only to have her ousted as Commish by an even bigger comic book cliche - "YOU MEAN THAT SUPER-VILLAIN IS RUNNING THE SHOW?' 4 - To be strictly fair, it now seems like nobody in comics is allowed to have a happy, stable relationship.
@@SerumLake I can just imagine him telling stories of him over the years as water cooler talk 😭 Just wait till he talks about his time as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar (although he often claims to have killed Caesar instead), Genghis Khan, Blackbeard, Vlad the Impaler, and Jack the Ripper. Or when he helped out Hitler and aides in the destruction of Atlantis!
I find it weird to pick a 1940s time period and do nothing much with it. Sure the technology is limited (but mostly whenever the script needs it), and yet 95% of these stories would have happened in an almost same way if it took place in the 60s or the 90s (in my opinion).
@jordanloux3883 BTAS is more atemporal and was the first of its kind. There, they picked an time period that they probably wanted for a reason, but it's hard to know why.
BTAS took place in modern times, the 1990s Caped Crusader is during the 1940s You want to see the Batman fight MILLIONS of KKK fanatics EVERY EPISODE!?!
@christiandauz3742 It's more about the fact that most of the characters don't feel like they're in the 40s. Same goes for the technology/costumes used by some. In my opinion, most of the stories would happen similarly no matter when the story takes place so why pick the 1940s? BTAS already had tommy guns and fedoras.
@@julienbrethiot6537 I don't want a show that has the N word every 5 seconds and lynchins every 15 minutes The Real 1940s is too fucked up. Only the Punisher can 'fix it' by k*ll*ng A LOT of White People Some of CC's tech is much more advanced than 1940s The corruption and brutality of the cops is accurate to both the 1940s and today so... BTAS was during the 1990s to 2000s as reinforced by Justice League and Static Shock. Tommy guns are up to modern standards of firepower
One of the things I'm really enjoying is that this new Batman series is like a combonation of B:TAS and police drama television like Hill Street Blues. Additionally, I'm very pleased with the inclusion and equity of minorities in this universe. It's nice to watch a show where everyone can just exist and be, without that being a contention expressed by a character in the show. In most other TV shows, even if it's progressive, there's always that one jerk making a misogynist remark. I have yet to see that happen in this show, and I hope it never happens. I'm finally getting into something that doesn't have casual bigotry (so far).
The male equivelent of her suit is a green tie, this was code allowing gay men to recognise each other without risking harm in the 1930s At least i think it was a thing, i may be miss remembering things..
I thought she was great but I didn’t like her and Harley Quinn together and I really didn’t like Harley Quinn’s design in this show I did think she was a cool villain tho
I haven't seen the series, and I'll admit a kneejerk reaction due to appearances, until I looked up the cast of the series, and saw that the Underwear on the Outside brigade was by and large restricted down to Batman, and that her taking up the role of The Question wasn't in the feel that the series was going with. Also, I really need to watch this series.
Hard disagree on the overlooking queerphobia bit. It's great that she's not drinking and is damn good at her job, but it does a disservice to queer struggles. Still a good vid tho.
@@NoMoreSuperHero you realize that doesn't help your point. Having it so queer character can't exist without homophobia in their stories isn't a step up. It's like saying every story about Jews has to be about the Holocaust.
When Gordon said he took a “risk” by promoting Montoya, I guess I interpreted that to mean that she had a reputation in Gotham as being by-the-book and incorruptible. And in a seedy cesspool like Gotham, that’s probably more of a liability than being gay or a minority could ever be.
Also, I do kind of like how they keep explicit racism, sexism, and sexual orientation discrimination out of it. It helps to kind of “normalize” the idea of seeing a diverse community. Like yeah, it’s got the aesthetics of the 40’s, but there’s a very diverse cast that covers the entire morality spectrum. Like you pointed out, when Harley and Montoya kissed in the restaurant, it wasn’t played as this big controversial or even “empowering” moment. It was just a moment of intimacy between 2 adults, and wasn’t treated as anymore substantial or significant than if they had been a straight couple. It was seen in- and (hopefully) out-of-universe as relatively “normal”, and it should be. Also, this “lack of overt discrimination” (that’s the best way I can describe it) makes a lot of the stories about people’s struggles and potential falls from grace much more personal since the writers can’t just say, “Well, this character is queer and/or a minority, so they’ve had a hard life and this is why they’re bad.”
That's because DC has always presented a more "socially ahead" earth even back then.
Thank you. Someone said it. It's kinda like the Sonic Boom joke with Knuckles about pointing out the undermining of social issues by pointing them out.
If you need to make a big scene, one way or another, then you don't help your case or you just make it seem like you want to draw attention for one reason or another.
I think the "risk" actually was one of the rare references to discrimination (well, aside from everything with Gentleman Ghost), specifically her gender.
@@Compucles well this is set in 1939, in the days before Wonder Woman showed up...of course women in these roles would be a huge risk...and only six months before Robin shows up...as soon as the calendar changes from 1939 to 1940...you'll see a bird. The plane's already in Metropolis.
It also isn’t explicitly mentioned to be the 1940s. Heavily borrowed the aesthetic, but not confirmed
I really liked this version of Renee Montoya. She felt very similar to her original animated portral. A hard working, stoic cop who cares for her city, people and co workers. They also made her extra thicc so bonus pounts. She's amazing!
Confident, good hearted cop, lgbt AND plus size representation?
Awesome character!
She making me act up
With her size she actually looks like a tough cop who could actually beat a Bullock if they actually came down to a fight with strength alone without having to use flying roundhouse kicks.
Yeah, she honestly doesn't feel much different--only that she doesn't seem as paired with Harvey.
@@klaykid117 Okay that might be a bit of an exaggeration, I mean Bullock is built like a brick house!
I think Montoya's admiration for Gordon is best summed up when she tells Harley that "He's been more of a father to me than mine ever was." It shows that she respects him not just as an officer of the law but also as a person, plus it gives us a hint into her family history that I hope will be explored more in season 2.
THANK YOU! As a queer person we don't want all our representation to be realistic, I want to see hate and slurs I just log on twitter, this world has so much fantastical that a little acceptance should be mundane
I like this version of Montoya, I hope there is a redeemed Bullock who can partner with her (And maybe Kathy/Kate Kane)
You know, I’m not sure how they could redeem Bullock after all the terrible things he has done…
@@SerumLake I agree this one is pretty irredeemable, but maybe time with Montoya? I guess I’m just used to Bullock being fundamentally good, if a slovenly asshole
The Internet 🛜 has way too much hate than it needs.
@@SerumLake I think they could, I mean, don't get me wrong he's a terrible person, but I think they've done it in a way where it's clear most of that comes from Flass' influence on him, I bet he really could come to realize just how far he's fallen, and at least try to be better, eventually.
@@SerumLake i dont think we could see him completely redeemed within the next season but i would like to see him partnered with montoya and have him start on the path of redemption as though he does some awful things they are usually not his plan and he is doing what flass is telling him to do (although just following someone else's orders is certainly no excuse)
9:11. You man are spitting facts. Caped Crusader does not deserve all the hate. We get it, Penguin's a woman, Bullock is corrupt, Harley Quinn is somewhat creepy, Batman nearly shot a guy. And "My Adventures with Superman" gave us a Luthor with hair. This is an age of redesigns. Personally, I loved Caped Crusader. It's no BTAS, but I love the fact that this is close to the show Bruce Timm wanted to make. I love the fact that it's more edgy. And I love the fact that underutilized characters like Montoya, Papa Midnite and Onomatopoeia are given more time to shine.
Although, I would love if they tackle serious issues in the future like racism and homophobia.
Given how nobody in the restaurant reacted to Harley kissing her, I don’t think they’ll tackle those topics
@@uria3679 The show is not over yet. Maybe they'll discuss heavy topics later on.
Here Here!!!🥂🍻
I think the people who hate a lot of that stuff are a vocal minority who aren't very big comic fans as they would be used to constant new universe = new interpretation by now. And I have to agree it's a missed opportunity for them to handle adversity with the characters as DC animated shows have historically had really good moments Of handling stuff like this sometimes with just a very powerful line. Like when cyborg was talking to Starfire in teen Titans about being different or that one Justice League episode with the old-timey superhero says "You're a credit to your people son to Jon Stewart". And that's not even going to mention all the countless great moments from static shock. Even the live action Watchmen show had this factor into it.
I really like this version of Batman but I get a lot of the fan frustration. They were told it was going to be a more mature show set in the noir post ww2 1940s But what's the point of making a bar diverse cast in a show set in the '40s? If you're just going to use it as set dressing, they might as well have said it in the 2040s And have a noir cyberpunk show. It feels like they're trying to be so unoffensive that they're looping around to actually being offensive by pretending like these weren't issues in the 1940s And whitewashing historical issues of the time.
I know it's not the Creator's intention to try and pretend like this wasn't an issue at the time And maybe Amazon gave them a hard and firm 'no' to showing this stuff, but I think it would have helped show the character's strength that guys like Bullock, Bruce, Wayne and Harvey dent are playing on easy mode compared to Renee Montoya, Barbara Gordon and even Flass.
Like can you imagine next season Flass finally gets caught And Gordon says something like
"Damn it Flass. I hope you know you've put our public image and relations behind by years."
"Well Don't worry, the police can do some charity and get that all back Gordon"
" I wasn't talking about the police Flass"
Then detective Flass has a look of realization and shame on his face as he just looks down and he's being taken away by other officers.
I'm sure they will tackle those issues but at the same time Caped Crusader is bringing back the escapism people generally tune into fiction for. While the corruption is one thing, it's nice also seeing things like Renee Montoya and Harleen just being to just be and not have hate come their way. They're just two people on a date and that's really nice.
Renee montoya deserves the recognition.
I don't know about you, but I'm tired of the self-loathing lesbian stereotype.
There are a thousand stories about that. It's nice to see them just be themselves.
5:11 Maybe it's because everyone is holding their breath and basically expecting her to break under the pressure of her new Gotham role and promotion and either become corrupt, crazy, or depressed and self-loathing because she's stuck in a position under a corrupt authority that wishes nothing more than to break her down and make her their puppet and wield the Anti-Batman Campaign like a Hammer to a Bat-shaped nail.
However, we both know if it takes a lot to break Barbara Gordon, then we know it'll take a ton to break Renée Montoya, and she WILL prevail and potentially even rise above and beyond Gordon's initial hopes and expectations.
"He's in every episode, he resolves most of the situations,and when other characters are on screen, they are mostly talking about him."
...Poochie the Dog?
You forgot to mention the Renee Montoya in the Telltale Batman games. Those are pretty good Batman games.
I really love this take on Montoya, not only taken some elements from the Comic like her Saxuality but I do like the idea of making her a bigger woman, I Think its great having Characters who aren't the same copy and paste body-type we're used to seeing in Comic book Media for the last half Decade up until the 90s where the idea was being explored more.
And honestly? With her build it actually makes it look like her punches could legitimately hurt. There was a scene in the video where she threw one and it felt kinda believably powerful. I would struggle to imagine the same scene working animation-wise if she was pencil-thin. (I'm sure they could do it, and it's not like the show is ultra-realistic. It just felt more believable in motion, y'know? Something like that.)
Long time first time caller: Yes Trench Coats are awesome and Montoya is rocking it well!
Caped Crusader's Montoya (and most other characters from the show, take a look on Nocturna) seems right out of a page from "Love & Rockets", by the great Jaime Hernandez, specially its mid 80's era. Has anybody else noticed?
I hadn’t noticed, so thanks for sharing that observation!
Woah! How did I not notice this? You nailed it!
I’m in agreement with not leaning in on bigotry for her character. It has been done and we can be spared. I also like the ambiguity of her “chance”, since it has a lot of different meanings.
I feel like this is a more fleshed out version of Renee that BTAS didn’t get around to, and yet gives her the BTAS treatment; stripping her character of things it doesn’t need so it is authentic and new. I’m looking forward to her character development, her continued relationship with Harley Q and how she will overcome her challenges, plus her relationship with Batman. The latter is leaning into season 2 of The Batman. I just hope it isn’t the basis for a Riddler introduction.
As you pointed out in an earlier video, this series takes place in the modern day and only has the Aesthetics of the 1930s, so the people up in arms about “historical inaccuracy” don’t have a leg to stand on.
I don't think this is set in modern day. Like Timm and Dini trying to make a "timeless" Batman with BTAS, I think this is meant to be ambiguous. But it really does just feel like 1940 because almost every single thing about it presents as 1940, EXCEPT for prejudice. And I can't fault people for wanting to just get away from that psychologically oppressive theme. Is it just a stylistic choice? Yes. Could they have made that clearer? Also yes. I personally wish they'd taken just a few more cues from other decades to really make it feels a smidge more anachronistic.
Yeah, there's a few things like Batman's car phone and Selina's taser-knuckles, but it's a superhero story. There's always a few fantastical things thrown in. I mean, look at explicitly modern stories featuring giant robots and freeze rays. Superhero fiction is loaded with preposterous sci-fi. That element is almost non-existent in CC. BTAS did this really well, feeling like 7 decades smashed together. But this is still fine. That WW2-era has its own charm.
Good lord I talk too much
@@CapnAlces serum lake mentions in an earlier video that it’s taking place in the modern day, and that this modern day Gotham just has the Aesthetics of the 1930s, and he got that from an interview Bruce Timm did.
@@matthewterlaga3022 That still makes the use and lack of use of various kinds of technology rather weird. It's like most of the tech is from the 1950s, aside from a few things here and there from later periods but almost nothing beyond the early '90s.
In season 2 it would be interesting to see Montoya and Bullock partnered together after Flask gets pinned for Dents murder, and this change of partnership gives Bullock a chance to start to come around as a better cop after the 2 buttheads for the first half of the season. Once again much like how Bullock was placed as Gordan's partner in the comics and made to come around that way.
Hm... I've been very offput by ideas of a Bullock reform, but that's actually a great idea. Even if it doesn't work out, I'd like to see that partnership and watch the gears in his head start turning.
Watching the show Renee was probably one of my favorite characters, hope caped crusader gets a season 2 and we see much more of her
Good news, Season Two is in production right now!
This is such a breath of fresh air. The vitriol flung at this show for being a bit different is so genuinely confusing, as if people watched a completely different show than I did.
I think you're bold to assume they watched it.
They were watching a different show. They were watching "this isn't what I watched when I was young", which is almost the same, except you can only see things you think are bad.
Those roasts were so good they toasted my marshmallows.
I kinda felt that there was an almost fatherly relationship between Gordon and Montoya. Almost. something aboout how she addresses Barbra Gordon. there was a ting of jealousy or envy about where Barbra grew up and her life. Maybe she wanted JIm to be her farther. I mean shes fallowing in his footsteps more than some public attorney
I really like how you did this episode! The background music helps give off a tone that I can’t quite place, but it definitely feels right.
It was a bit eerie when I noticed it, so I froze for a second cuz I was alone in the dark 😂 😅
Your coverage on these topics is impressive
9:00 THANK YOU! Some of us are tired of "realism" and just want some damn escapism in our entertainment!
It's true. I'd love to see those topics explored... but why can't we just enjoy representation AND fedoras?
@CapnAlces Because of stupid people, I'd assume.
It's a 40s of the future, tech-wise, it can be socially more ahead too. I don't see why not.
To be fair the police corruption and brutality is still there. American style politics/lobbying is still in CC
I wouldn't say they reworked Montoya from her comics counterpart as much as I'd say they restored her closer to her origins on "Batman: The Animated Series" while bumping her status up to that of a secondary character.
I haven't seen much of Montoya in the comics but I'm very familiar with her in BTAS where she's quite stoic, by-the-book and very competent; the CC version is very similar in that regard and felt very in-character to me.
Yeah I loved this version of Renee Montoya as well. I also like you admired her build. Its a nice change of pace. Same with Harley's.
I love Renee Montoya’s design in this. Her being a little bit more broad as a bigger woman than her other designs is really cool.
I liked this version and thought her representation was great
I really like this character that I discover in this series
No cape crusader is a pretty ideal example of what i wish media did with lgbt characters and thats not make a big deal about the fact that they are
The one thing I find odd (which is not even a problem, I think its funny) its the width of her shoulders, or rather the her shoulder width compared to her body.
Again I have no trouble with it, it just stand out a lot to me for no particular reason.
Maybe she wears padded shoulders to try and intimidate Bullock and Flask, I can see them being intimidated by a strong woman
@KingNerdius that... makes perfect sense
I wonder if in Season 2, will Renee be a positive influence on Bullock? Make him have a change of heart.
This seems to be a popular idea, and it's warming me over to the potential of a Bullock redemption. Or maybe atonement would be a better word here, IDK?
I honestly wasn't too sure of this show after the first episode. But when I saw Montoya take charge and do some actual detective work, it really helped shift my view, and I knew that this was going to be something worth paying attention to.
I don't know who decided Montoya needed to be thicc but it's worth it.
James Tucker designed her, so I have to assume it was him
Indeed. 😊
Epic video ❤❤❤❤ thanks for sharing 🎉🎉🎉 my hero 🦸♀️
I love your videos. 😊
Thanks, Karlos!
I like this iteration hell I like many iterations of Montoya. But I have to ask this, Harley and her were paired if only briefly are they going to do the same thing with mainline Harley who will very much likely end up with Ivy at some point and have a moment that has Montaya have to decide between her feelings and her duty were she would arrest Harley which may I add will likely lead to Ivy intervening? Am I crazy for thinking that?
Was expecting the DCAU iteration's cut "P.O.V." backstory to be expressed here.
3:13: Did they have a kid? If so, they could be Project Batman Beyond material.
3:17: Wait, what? How?
3:25: WHAT?!?
3:48: But not Hartman Hips.
6:20: In a different universe, the one ticked off by the attempted bribe would be Harvey Bullock.
6:43: Any chance the show will lampshade the fact that she looks fat with her trenchcoat on? Anywho, she's still no Amanda Waller.
8:53: And then there's the Marstons, the polygamous folk who MADE Wonder Woman.
For realism, Caped Crusader need not have aliens, even if Green Lantern Alan Scott can be a thing.
Duty over Love: that's gonna be how Renee will most likely confront Harley when they reunite. But, I wonder, will there also be loathsome Death?
9:38: And also the basis for parodies like that diner on The Tick cartoon.
Anyways, not into Gordon x Essen. The former shouldn't be an adulterer, while the latter should just be a platonic wingwoman.
Awesome!👏
Vandal Savage became commissioner?! 🫢 😮 😱
I liked this version of Montoya.
A bit of a tanger but, the fuck do you mean the GCPD is now under Vandal Savage??
I mean you can't deny the guy has a very, VERY thorough resume
The Court of Owls had Montoya removed and Vandal Savage put in that position after he moved to Gotham and bought Wayne Manor...
That's like having Imperial warlordess Nataasi Daala becoming the Galactic Federation of Free Alliance's Chief of State in an apocryphal part of Star Wars Legends.
Yeah, my eyebrows piqued at that too!
5:54 Was Yvonne named after the 66 series' Batgirl?
According to Bruce Timm:
“Yvonne Frances gets her name from actress Frances Drake and the character she played in the classic 1935 shocker MAD LOVE, Yvonne Orlac.”
I kinda like the idea of it they decide to redeem Bullock in the show they facilitate it by having him on probation and assigned to work with Montoya
I heard that in BTAS, the writers originally wanted Montoya to be attracted to women. Too bad that idea was scrapped. I am glad Bruce Timm and all the other writers got a second chance in this show. They actually gave Renee more depth and character here. In BTAS, I only remembered her as the "lady cop".
Some of the stuff the mayor says to Jim Gordon makes me think that racism is not solved in this universe and as you said, some of what Flask and Bullock say, along with Gordon's commwnt could be race, gender or sexual persuasion.
And a qay that is nice. It is up to the audience to figure out what they think is the "problem." But they do kind of need to realize there is an issue and that it is a multiple choice question where none of the above is NOT an option.
And I don't think Brucie Timm's women didn't have hips. They lacked a waist. Yeahbthey had ine, but not one that was likely anatomically possible.
I love the question. Now I gotta see her obsessing over ice cream flavors and satellite tracking tooth paste
I think Caped Crusader is on course to introduce a second costumed hero for Batman to contend with in the next season, and Montoya as The Question i think would be perfect for it.
I imagine going the angle of "GCPD's Batman", a vigilante that actually works with the police and plays by the book
Say, if you're interested would you consider checking out La'ron Readus' analysis video on Reene Montoya, Harley Quinn and Barbara Gordon from Batman: Cape Crusader ?
He does mention that Renee Montoya was definitely up for the job and lists very fascinating reasons why these interpretations of the characters work so well.
If I ever have any free time I'll consider it (up to my neck in videos that need editing right now!)
@@SerumLakeOk, fair enough. Have a good evening. 😊☮️
Nitpick about her design (it is just a nitpick). Either she needed to wear a longer skirt, or a shorter coat or pants instead of a skirt or something to make it clear she is wearing SOMETHING under her coat. She looks like a flasher 90% of the time.
I would love to see if any of that change to the pd happens in this version. Time will tell of course.
I liked the updates, didn't detract from the superhero exploits/growth arc at all, for me.
We really need an animated Montoya spin off series similar to the Gotham central series but not like the live action Gotham series. If anyone knows what I’m saying.
She deserves a spin off more than Alfred
Ironic that Montoya didn’t get a major role in the comics until the very story that Harley was added to the main universe
I just want to say thank you for these videos, because only one other person I know likes CC. The people i showed it to, didnt like it 😅 they all said "nothing happens" in the show (two fell asleep during the Clayface ep), but i heartily disagree
I just hope we get the question
1 - This Gotham doesn't need racism and homophobia as problems - it has every other one.
2 - I got kind of annoyed with Comics' Montoya when they had her, as Police Commissioner, denounce Gordon. This was both on the basis of suddenly resenting someone she had always shown at least basic respect to, and that 'suddenly Gotham doesn't trust Batman because of Joker's annual mega-scheme' BS.
3 - Kind of ironic that they had her chafe under the self-loathing lesbian stereotype cliche for so long, only to have her ousted as Commish by an even bigger comic book cliche - "YOU MEAN THAT SUPER-VILLAIN IS RUNNING THE SHOW?'
4 - To be strictly fair, it now seems like nobody in comics is allowed to have a happy, stable relationship.
CC isn't sexist but hates the poor
I’m so mad at myself for looking at my phone when they kissed
Ah yes the only Dominican superhero character I ever grew up with in comics/TV, better than nothing lmao🇩🇴🇩🇴🇩🇴
Gordan and two face working together? Was the Harley Quinn show making a reference to the no man lands story?
I didn't know Greta Garbo was bisexual. All I know is that she was famous for her big feet.
3:33 WAIT WHAT?!
Yep!
@@SerumLake I can just imagine him telling stories of him over the years as water cooler talk 😭
Just wait till he talks about his time as Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar (although he often claims to have killed Caesar instead), Genghis Khan, Blackbeard, Vlad the Impaler, and Jack the Ripper. Or when he helped out Hitler and aides in the destruction of Atlantis!
8:59 read them for filth. thank you!!
I find it weird to pick a 1940s time period and do nothing much with it. Sure the technology is limited (but mostly whenever the script needs it), and yet 95% of these stories would have happened in an almost same way if it took place in the 60s or the 90s (in my opinion).
You mean like BTAS and the Adam West show?
@jordanloux3883 BTAS is more atemporal and was the first of its kind. There, they picked an time period that they probably wanted for a reason, but it's hard to know why.
BTAS took place in modern times, the 1990s
Caped Crusader is during the 1940s
You want to see the Batman fight MILLIONS of KKK fanatics EVERY EPISODE!?!
@christiandauz3742 It's more about the fact that most of the characters don't feel like they're in the 40s. Same goes for the technology/costumes used by some. In my opinion, most of the stories would happen similarly no matter when the story takes place so why pick the 1940s? BTAS already had tommy guns and fedoras.
@@julienbrethiot6537
I don't want a show that has the N word every 5 seconds and lynchins every 15 minutes
The Real 1940s is too fucked up. Only the Punisher can 'fix it' by k*ll*ng A LOT of White People
Some of CC's tech is much more advanced than 1940s
The corruption and brutality of the cops is accurate to both the 1940s and today so...
BTAS was during the 1990s to 2000s as reinforced by Justice League and Static Shock. Tommy guns are up to modern standards of firepower
One of the things I'm really enjoying is that this new Batman series is like a combonation of B:TAS and police drama television like Hill Street Blues.
Additionally, I'm very pleased with the inclusion and equity of minorities in this universe. It's nice to watch a show where everyone can just exist and be, without that being a contention expressed by a character in the show. In most other TV shows, even if it's progressive, there's always that one jerk making a misogynist remark. I have yet to see that happen in this show, and I hope it never happens. I'm finally getting into something that doesn't have casual bigotry (so far).
TV 📺new 🦇batman 👨 tv 📺episode analysis ?!
The male equivelent of her suit is a green tie, this was code allowing gay men to recognise each other without risking harm in the 1930s
At least i think it was a thing, i may be miss remembering things..
Speaking of Clayface has anyone read Batman Resurrection?
I thought she was great but I didn’t like her and Harley Quinn together and I really didn’t like Harley Quinn’s design in this show I did think she was a cool villain tho
... I liked Renee in the comics up to a point... This one ? Eh, she's alright...
a yes every one knows that lage bat's and croc's are totally real
Yeahh
I haven't seen the series, and I'll admit a kneejerk reaction due to appearances, until I looked up the cast of the series, and saw that the Underwear on the Outside brigade was by and large restricted down to Batman, and that her taking up the role of The Question wasn't in the feel that the series was going with.
Also, I really need to watch this series.
Very interesting 🤨?
Curvy woman! Mmmhhh!
Hard disagree on the overlooking queerphobia bit. It's great that she's not drinking and is damn good at her job, but it does a disservice to queer struggles. Still a good vid tho.
You know what else is a disservice? Queer characters being nothing more than pools of suffering and victims of homophobia.
Depicting all gay people as alcoholics doesn’t help with homophobia so what are you trying to imply
@@jordanloux3883 Who said she'd have to suffer, it could've easily given her the opportunity to knockout a bigot.
@@KingNerdius Ummmm what?
@@NoMoreSuperHero you realize that doesn't help your point. Having it so queer character can't exist without homophobia in their stories isn't a step up. It's like saying every story about Jews has to be about the Holocaust.
Well of course, they're not allowed to give characters like her serious flaws lmao