Digging your cycling room. Looks so clean. Unfortunately I am not going to have a room that looks like that for a long while. Great review. I think you are getting better and better, but I know it takes a lot of time in post edit to mash all of the videos/audios together. Fantastic job. I am still learning the ropes in the UA-cam world.
Great Video, really helped! BTW. I just set up my Climber with my KICKR. The rise and drop of the Climber in Zwift Watopia was spot on. I did not feel a lag.
Great video/explanation again Lama. I just got this and really like it. The benefit I'm getting is the diverse set of body position that helps for longer hours of indoor riding.
Yet another well shot, well produced, informative review, Shane. Great to see the different camera angles and overlays. It really adds to the overall experience. Keep it up!
Thorough stuff Shane, really good insight into set up and how the unit performs. Yet to work my way up to even a Kickr yet, though it's firmly on the wish list (probably a Wahoo refurbished gen 1 mind), but perhaps one day I too can play with up and down buttons while riding my bike...
15 years ago when Computrainer was the hot setup we raced on NetAthlon. (Think 8 bit avatars!) Someone had invented & patented a climbing device that worked with the CTrainer. It was $800 at the time.......I almost bought it.....
Shane, you are a legend. The screen shot at 12:46 allowed me to solve the lack of comms from Zwift to the climb. I was using BT but not getting a response. Tried ANT as shown (looked for the FE value) and I'm all hooked up. Your videos have been instrumental in getting me up and cycling with my wahooligan set up. Cheers
at 13:44 we see the MAMIL in his artificial environment react to the new toy with a spontaneous, genuine, happy-smile going on :D ...now I can't wait 'til mine gets delivered to my LBS!!! I'll be up there before they can hang up the phone when they call to tell me it's arrived. Great vid, Shane; you're always perfectly thorough. Thanks!
Thanks Motti Pikelny! We’re lucky to have a few old bikes to put on a trainer. They have 10-speed drive trains, have short cage derailleurs, and small cassettes. I wanted to replicate 15%+ grades without slipping to
Well done Video!! I am looking forward to the rocker and Climb together.. I think if the rockers become more popular, hopefully The smart trainer manufactures will get smart and build there own rockers..
academyrulz ,integration faces at least one hurdle, that being the US patent owned by Kinetic for the Rock and Roll trainer. Maybe there are ways around it, but I think that patent is one reason we haven't already seen integrated rockers from other trainer builders.
Chad McNeese Kinetic only have a patent.on.their design.of rocker not a rocker trainer perse because a bicycle mount trainer is not a new concept or invention. Look at it like Sram.and WiFi or Shimano and di2, neither tech is truly innovative enough to claim.a sole copy write patent.
Excellent as ever, like popping round a mates house to see his latest toy, then trying to work out if you can justify one yourself!! Now where's my piggy bank??
This is gonna flop IMO but its the first go at it. Looks flimsy at high grads. It would be better if they made a platform that everything sits on including the trainer. That way it would be more stable and can be used with any trainer as well as no axle problems. I do like the idea. I find on zwift its annoying not having any feedback on gradient. You constantly need to watch that silly map to know whats coming. Hopefully zwift can make that better at least. Having this will make gear changes an automatic response just like when your outside.
I agree that thing is ridiculous. Wouldn't a hydraulic cylinder running off an electric motor be much quicker and quiet. You could also do some sort of road feel sorta like the TacX Neo.
Make video How low price bike can you do zwifting with? Second hand frame (50€), 9 speed sifter (35€), deraulars (70€), casette (23€)...exe....And pricy smartinteractive trainer 700-1300€. No front wheel>wood blog No brakes neaded Sifter barend ones 9 speed 35€ Market saddle 9€ Chain 12€ Cranks 0-40€ Pedals 0-😳
Bicycle sunday just pick.Up a used road bike or mountain bike for $100 or less and strip all the redundant parts like brakes off. The bike could really be the Least expensive component of a swift setup. I have considered a cheap build a leave bike because the constant swapping out the back wheel onto my fixed trainer does my head in.
Stay tuned on that one... It's still early days for Zwift (and the others) who are figuring out how to give the best experience with one of these units.
i dont have the money so its not really an issue for me, but i was kinda dissappointed in seeing the speed at which it went up and down. Whats the max gradient it goes up to? It didnt look that steep.
Compatibility note: we discovered today that the Climb does not work with Trek bikes that have a recess in the fork for a SpeedTrap speed sensor (vs. in the chainstay for a DuoTrap speed/cadence sensor). On those bikes, the forks have a larger-than-normal diameter, which causes them to rub against the housing of the Climb as the it raises and lowers the bike.
I am really looking forward the setup + rocket plate. cannot wait it! Great review. Fortunately, I am using neo right now. Kickr climb is useless for me currently lol.
Nice Work Shane. I am interested in your experience on the climb in relation to the screen height. Like you, I have a wall mounted TV and I am keen to know if you had any difficulty with neck strain etc when the climb changed gradient. This would probably be at the worst on maximum downward gradients. Is there an optimal height for the screen when using the climb?
I didn't have any dramas with the TV height. You won't be spending a lot of time at any negative gradients, or epic positive ones, so non issue in my books.
is there any point in buying a kickr 4 against kickr core if you already have a power meter with cadence and an additional cassette? and I also won't be using the higher power of the first, because I'm no pro :) I imagine that kickr core with kickr climb would be more than enough? why are you though using the kickr 4 instead of core? thank you very much Shane for all your hard work making high quality videos about smart trainers!
I don't think the delay is fixable with firmware alone, especially with the smoothing. There's a radio delay (seems to always be 1-5s with ANT+, I find BLE is lower at least), a delay for the motor to actually move the bike to the target gradient, and then also a delay to smooth out the change (remember the demo at Eurobike didn't do any smoothing). The only real fix would be for the app (Zwift) to send gradients ahead of what's on screen and allow the trainer to queue adjustments to happen at the correct time for the hardware. Zwift told me they were working on a delay adjustment 2+ years ago but like many things it still hasn't materialised.
I have been advocating for a "Trainer Delay Offset" function from Zwift for over a year. Needs to be "smart" to account for different approach speeds, but this should happen to remedy the resistance and now grade change delays we get from the trainers (and are essentially impossible to eliminate).
For now I think Zwift should just have a simple offset and anything "smart" should be handled by the trainer firmware. That way the communication between Zwift and the hardware can stick to the standard open ANT+/BLE profiles and any extra features should be configured in the Wahoo, Tacx, etc, apps.
Yes, I'd be happy with a simple 2 second (or whatever is a good average) shift in Zwift sending it early. It wouldn't be "perfect", but it would for sure be better.
Nice review Shane. Looks like there was more side to side motion using the Climb than when on the trainer block. Was this bothersome and did it have any affect on wattage? Thanks!
Didn't feel any different to me having the Climb on the front compared to a wheel. Only the ups and downs. No impact on power, well, none I could tell with that hour of power.
Another great video Shane. Would like to see you re-ride your TT course map you made a video of a few months ago, and see how it compares with the Climb installed.
KICKR CLIMB is the top. The only thing I don't like is that it's compatible only with KLICKR trainers. I don't want to change my top trainer Elite Drivo to have the climb experience
I'm curious to know how stable it feels when doing sprint type efforts. It looks stable, but if you jump out of the saddle and throw down hard does it feel properly planted?
How are you using two televisions in your setup? Is there another bike that was pulled out of view for this video, or are you using two screens for one Zwift experience?
Until Wahoo figures out an adapter kit for my Kickr2 this is useless... Plus, I can't see it making much difference in riding, NOT like a rocker plate would... just IMHO. Good review as usual!
Shane Miller - GPLama what are the limitations on using other trainers? The way it pairs directly with the kickr17? So it can't physically pair with a kickr2, plus there's the clearance issue?
Neo is quieter... and requires no calibration if you're using it as a power source. There's a ton of other factors too.... so what I ride and what others should ride are not always the same. Your call.
What I would like to see is the feature to use the CLIMB in ERG mode. I do my structured workout on my indoor trainer, however to my understanding there is no option to say like: "ok, I design a 4x4 intervall training with a slope of 15% and a wattage level of 320 Watts or a 8% slope at 320 Watts. Between intervalls go down to 3% slope at 190 Watts." I have to change it manually on the CLIMB remote directly. As far as I know it will only adjust if using a software such as ZWIFT. Would be nice to see more usability of the CLIMB in the ERG mode.
After 11 months of use mine just broke. I was going up the subway climb and standing when it hit 14%. A moment later I came crashing down when the grade simulator collapsed. Pretty big shock to my neck! Contacted Wahoo. A replacement is en route. Has anyone else had this problem?
Good review 👍... in your opinion which would be a better set up for a more immersive zwift experience.. tacx neo or kickr snap 17 with a climb?? (Both set ups around £1000 uk)
The climb for sure... as it moves more naturally, well, as you'd expect a bike to move on hills. But you're comparing direct drive to wheel-on, so there're two different things.
To get the Climb to move the correct amount in Zwift, you can leave the difficulty at 50%, and just double your wheelbase length on the Wahoo App for Climb Setup.
@16:20 it looks like you're well into the steep downhill (negative 13-14%), but the Climb still isn't down as far as it should be? If it's max is -10% ish, shouldn't it be bottomed out there?
That’s an interesting one - in the fe-c gradient data coming from zwift - down gradient values are exactly -0.5 * the up gradient values. Perhaps because the resistance drop off was too severe on the way down when it was 1 to 1. But it needs to be 1 to 1 for the Climb otherwise it would never level back out.
That... makes a lot of sense to what I've felt actually. Always wondered why I could still push downhill so hard in Zwift compared to usually being totally spun out somewhere between 30-40mph IRL. I figured it was just flywheel inertia vs the real thing or whatever. But the fact that during ERG mode or calibrations I could get spun out confused me then. I feel like they should change that anyways then, but I can see how that'd throw a wrench into things. For one, getting the 100kph achievement would be more difficult (unless turning the trainer difficulty to 0 just causes you to get 0% gradient when going downhill too???), and it would mess with racing times since descending certain slopes would cause more people to be spun out.
hngldr yes, trainer difficulty is a multiplier of 0 to 1.0 * the up AND the down, so 0 is no down slope which gives racers the same advantage that non-interactive trainer users get - MORE resistance going down and less likely to spin out, so more power.
I want to ask the following questions: Why didn't you do a full out sprint? Why do you use the block for the front wheel? And is it compatible with other trainers? BUT I actually read the comments before I ask questions, and seeing as you answered them all 20 times I'll leave you be lol Great review as always Shane!
G'day Mullens! (Legend multiple Aussie Champion for anyone reading the comments!) - A full out sprint - I didn't think it was all that important, it's not a power meter or a flywheel/trainer. It's held up fine in sprints in follow up rides. I'll do one on the next video I do on the Climb (likely with the Kickr SNAP). - I use a front wheel block on static trainers to take the pressure off my hands/arms/arse. Without steering, veering, and the changing centre of gravity you get outside with accelerations/hills, I find it more comfortable to jack the front up a few inches. Just personal preference. - The Climb is only compatible with the trainers that have full up/down pivots with the rear drops. So at the moment that's the Kickr17/SNAP17. Using this with a trainer where the bike is 'locked in' will eventually grind and wear hangers and dropouts, and people will get all grumpy. I'm sure Wahoo would love to have this compatible with all trainers, it'd x4 their ability to sell more.... but... it just won't work at this point with other trainers.
I know you're the go-to Zwift guy, but it would be good to see how this works with other software platforms. I use BigRingVR as well as Zwift, so it would be cool to see how this works with that.
Oh! I was under the impression that as the climb connects directly to the trainer, developers wouldn't have to do anything to add the climb functionality. I thought that the slope was sent or calculated by the trainer, which then broadcasted instructions to the climb re how to move.
That's the theory (and practice). Then there's the quirks like ERG mode and how that integrates with something like this. Also the delay/lag might need to be factored in on the controlling software side of things. I'll cover more of the specifics in the coming weeks as there's updates and more support for this hardware.
I have a climb and I generally like it. The biggest problem is that Zwift often fails to deliver the gradient info to the unit. I’ve done all kinds of experiments and there’s no rhyme or reason to when it works and when it does not. You often won’t know that anything is wrong until 5 minutes into a Zwift ride because they usually start at 0%. So as soon as you warm up... nothing. You have a $650 front wheel stand. 🤷🏽♂️
Curious if they will be able to improve the kickr climb Zwift integration as you mentioned. I thought the Climb just takes the data directly from the Kickr, so Zwift doesn't even know about it. I hope that it can be resolved though! I am looking forward to this.
Hi Shane, I am coming to this a year later, so did they sort out the lag between Zwift and the climb so there is no delay in the end? Also, have there been any changes regarding ERG mode please? Thanks for the great review as always :)
The unit I have is still working fine. Nothing new to report on so you won’t see a lot of content on it. (The standard media rarely cover anything that isn’t ‘new’)
@@gplama thats understandable. I want it, I don't need it and not certain it'll make my Zwift life £499 better......haha... Thanks for the speedy reply 👍
Missing the major selling point entirely - engagement of different muscles due to the different angle the bike is on during climbs and descents - ergo, better training for the real world as you're building muscles (that wouldn't ordinarily be engaged on a trainer) on the trainer that more closely resemble real-world muscle use. At least, that's what they were touting at Eurobike.
Any reason the Climb wouldn't work with a Tacx Genius (or other Tacx wheel-on trainers where the back wheel is held in place with two cups "grabbing" over a special Tacx QR skewer)? I can lift up my front wheel freely all the way until the bike is vertical (even longer if it weren't for the wall behind the bike) while the bike is on the trainer. No restistance or grinding whatsoever. Of course I mean using the remote to manually control the grade of the Climb, I know I need a Kickr trainer to make it automatic.
Absolutely, the Tacx skewers have a perfectly round steel cap on each end which goes into correspondng cups on the trainer lock-in mecanism. There is no resistance whatsoever when the front wheel is lifted. Here is video of the Tacx setup: ua-cam.com/video/rCfSIT0s2lM/v-deo.html
The lag you noticed is interesting - that's what I notice from a Tacx Neo regularly and I've tried all sorts of configuration and adapter changes. With the CLIMB it's finally the physical depiction of my lag experience with Zwift. It makes drafting infuriating among other things. Do you not get that lag at all from the KICKR?
Perhaps even from the noise, it might sound like the KICKR is behaving the same way (with the lag), you just got used to it? Also, since the KICKR is sending the gradient info I guess the lag will only be as good as the trainer gets it, and if they added any delay to relaying the message then the CLIMB is definitely not ideal for the fast changes.
There's lag... there's always lag. Everyone complains initially as there's a big disconnect. There hasn't been a lot of movement in regards to Zwift updates about the issue. Let's see what Zwift can do with future updates.
Shane Miller - GPLama excellent. They sure look interesting. Just a matter of time before there are more people making and selling them. Great potential for long rides. Big bunnings project. More than the bike stand
Is it worth it when specifically training for cycling in the mountains? I mean when cycling uphill your balance shifts and it’s hard to adapt to that when everything near you is flat
at 13:50 you are testing within the ssss where its dips down then up you mention there is a bit of lag. you then once again mention the lag of approx 2sec or so @ 17:40.
the use of rocker plates voids any warranties (according to Wahoo... as we would expect) But also, I don't know about the stability. Even in this vid, your limited out of the saddle stuff when climing - it looked a little wonky. I noticed you sat back down pretty quickly (which yes, yes, I know - seated climbing is better... :P), I "dance" quite a bit out of the saddle (sprints or climbs) & I hope this thing will be stable enough. I think a rocker plate would just amplify the issue. Your thoughts, Shane?
Jeff, can you provide data or proof to your claim of voided warranties? I am actively involved with rocker development and have seen nothing on that from any maker.
I'm currently dealing with a warranty claim on a Kickr Snap; I specifically asked the CS at Wahoo I'm working w/about rocker plates & included in my email from this rep was: "...as far as the use of 'rocker plates': we do not recommend the use of these with the KICKR, KICKR SNAP, or the upcoming CLIMB not only because most are homemade (therefore impossible to assure tolerances), but also because none of the units have been designed for the different external forces that would/could be applied to their product." Sorry, Chad; I love the idea of the rocker plates myself & had started toying with some different design ideas....now shelved. Like I said, I already had to send my SNAP back in for bad bearings after two weeks of riding!!! (VERY frustrating, hoping its just an anomaly) Also - one of my rides is a '17 Felt AR3; it has a 130mm rear axle width - I get a very liberal amount of side-to-side movement when it's in my SNAP (nothing to do w/the bearing issue - in fact I've been assured it's "within tolerances". However, it still seems odd to have about an inch of left/right tire travel on the roller... anyone else have this issue??)
You were talking about two settings on the Wahoo Fitness app. (timer 10:30), One was type of bike (axle height), the other you talked about (wheel base), which I don't know other than my height.Can you tell me what setting you were using as I will be using a road bike as well. My climb is coming in August.
KWC by now I am sure you’ve figured it out. The wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear axle. The unit needs that to calculate the height once it receives the grade info. Some bikes are longer than others.
Nice review (as always). Thinking about getting one as loving my Kickr trainer and Zwift but keen to add an extra element of realism. Love it how the instruction manual is quickly discarded during the unboxing!
I didn’t post publically because Wahoo assured two weeks ago me that they had no other instances of similar catastrophic failure. But now I've seen multiple similar reports on Facebook groups. I’m 77kg and was on a flat at 200wkg when the belt broke suddenly dropping to full negative. I regularly sprint at 1000w and and am out of saddle weight forward on punchy climbs above 7wkg - had this happened during one of those instances I would have been injured. My replacement is arriving this week - I am very concerned. I should have looked more closely at the belt - I wonder what the rating is. Wahoo tech assured me that they had put tons of hours on dynamo but I am worried they could have understimated the literal bouncing that goes into the system in a sprint. I have 2000km + on the climb - mostly racing.
Now I won't wear out my front tire after a full winter on the trainer.
1975lap please tell.me that was a joke.
you can buy so many tires for the price of this thing 😂
Perfect excuse to get one lol 😂😂😂
Just got mine. Takes a little getting used to but it really makes Zwift even more immersive. Great video as always.
Digging your cycling room. Looks so clean. Unfortunately I am not going to have a room that looks like that for a long while. Great review. I think you are getting better and better, but I know it takes a lot of time in post edit to mash all of the videos/audios together. Fantastic job. I am still learning the ropes in the UA-cam world.
Excellent review. Not sure I’m going to invest in that though. For those curious how to convert angle to gradient:
Gradient [%] = Tan(Angle[°]) × 100
Great Video, really helped! BTW. I just set up my Climber with my KICKR. The rise and drop of the Climber in Zwift Watopia was spot on. I did not feel a lag.
My kid just said, “that Lama, always opening presents from his grandma” :-)
Then check out the next video.... going live in 3....2.....
Great video/explanation again Lama. I just got this and really like it. The benefit I'm getting is the diverse set of body position that helps for longer hours of indoor riding.
Excellent review Shane. Same can not be said of the music choice :) That lag needs to be looked at before release but it's still pretty cool.
Woah. Look at that awesome bar tape!
Excellent review!
Yet another well shot, well produced, informative review, Shane. Great to see the different camera angles and overlays. It really adds to the overall experience. Keep it up!
Thorough stuff Shane, really good insight into set up and how the unit performs. Yet to work my way up to even a Kickr yet, though it's firmly on the wish list (probably a Wahoo refurbished gen 1 mind), but perhaps one day I too can play with up and down buttons while riding my bike...
15 years ago when Computrainer was the hot setup we raced on NetAthlon. (Think 8 bit avatars!) Someone had invented & patented a climbing device that worked with the CTrainer. It was $800 at the time.......I almost bought it.....
Ed Burgess I heard about this and searched, but haven't found any pics or info. I'd love to see it if anyone knows where to find it.
Cheers Shane great work as usual
Shane, you are a legend. The screen shot at 12:46 allowed me to solve the lack of comms from Zwift to the climb. I was using BT but not getting a response. Tried ANT as shown (looked for the FE value) and I'm all hooked up. Your videos have been instrumental in getting me up and cycling with my wahooligan set up. Cheers
Your full motion teevee mounts need to move with this 😂
Looking forward to other brands (Saris) taking this idea and making climb devices for their respective smart trainers.
at 13:44 we see the MAMIL in his artificial environment react to the new toy with a spontaneous, genuine, happy-smile going on :D
...now I can't wait 'til mine gets delivered to my LBS!!! I'll be up there before they can hang up the phone when they call to tell me it's arrived. Great vid, Shane; you're always perfectly thorough. Thanks!
Thanks Motti Pikelny! We’re lucky to have a few old bikes to put on a trainer. They have 10-speed drive trains, have short cage derailleurs, and small cassettes. I wanted to replicate 15%+ grades without slipping to
Umm why the hell do you apologize for listening to Yes
I hope tacx guys get one built soon.and compatible with the tacx neo
Excellent review.
Great video and awesome aero tuck!
trying to find the recommendation of the wifi/way to turn the power on/off with a remote? thought I saw it on this video, can't find it.
Well done Video!! I am looking forward to the rocker and Climb together.. I think if the rockers become more popular, hopefully The smart trainer manufactures will get smart and build there own rockers..
academyrulz ,integration faces at least one hurdle, that being the US patent owned by Kinetic for the Rock and Roll trainer. Maybe there are ways around it, but I think that patent is one reason we haven't already seen integrated rockers from other trainer builders.
Chad McNeese Kinetic only have a patent.on.their design.of rocker not a rocker trainer perse because a bicycle mount trainer is not a new concept or invention. Look at it like Sram.and WiFi or Shimano and di2, neither tech is truly innovative enough to claim.a sole copy write patent.
Excellent as ever, like popping round a mates house to see his latest toy, then trying to work out if you can justify one yourself!! Now where's my piggy bank??
Man for that money I think I will get a better riding experience with a rocker plate.... top content as usual Shane! 👍🏼🍻
This is gonna flop IMO but its the first go at it. Looks flimsy at high grads. It would be better if they made a platform that everything sits on including the trainer. That way it would be more stable and can be used with any trainer as well as no axle problems. I do like the idea. I find on zwift its annoying not having any feedback on gradient. You constantly need to watch that silly map to know whats coming. Hopefully zwift can make that better at least. Having this will make gear changes an automatic response just like when your outside.
I agree that thing is ridiculous. Wouldn't a hydraulic cylinder running off an electric motor be much quicker and quiet. You could also do some sort of road feel sorta like the TacX Neo.
Make video
How low price bike can you do zwifting with? Second hand frame (50€), 9 speed sifter (35€), deraulars (70€), casette (23€)...exe....And pricy smartinteractive trainer 700-1300€.
No front wheel>wood blog
No brakes neaded
Sifter barend ones 9 speed 35€
Market saddle 9€
Chain 12€
Cranks 0-40€
Pedals 0-😳
Bicycle sunday just pick.Up a used road bike or mountain bike for $100 or less and strip all the redundant parts like brakes off. The bike could really be the Least expensive component of a swift setup. I have considered a cheap build a leave bike because the constant swapping out the back wheel onto my fixed trainer does my head in.
English course 2000€
$599 US?? Insane
Just wanted to say thank you for making this video, it was very helpful
Cool, I want one. Can you do a video showing the "Trainer Difficulty" interactions? Will it move more when you crank it up?
Stay tuned on that one... It's still early days for Zwift (and the others) who are figuring out how to give the best experience with one of these units.
i dont have the money so its not really an issue for me, but i was kinda dissappointed in seeing the speed at which it went up and down. Whats the max gradient it goes up to? It didnt look that steep.
Compatibility note: we discovered today that the Climb does not work with Trek bikes that have a recess in the fork for a SpeedTrap speed sensor (vs. in the chainstay for a DuoTrap speed/cadence sensor). On those bikes, the forks have a larger-than-normal diameter, which causes them to rub against the housing of the Climb as the it raises and lowers the bike.
Interesting. Thanks for the post Bob.
I am really looking forward the setup + rocket plate. cannot wait it! Great review.
Fortunately, I am using neo right now. Kickr climb is useless for me currently lol.
What's Apl du Zwift like riding with the kickr. Just ordered one.🤘
Hard work! 😅
Nice Work Shane. I am interested in your experience on the climb in relation to the screen height. Like you, I have a wall mounted TV and I am keen to know if you had any difficulty with neck strain etc when the climb changed gradient. This would probably be at the worst on maximum downward gradients. Is there an optimal height for the screen when using the climb?
I didn't have any dramas with the TV height. You won't be spending a lot of time at any negative gradients, or epic positive ones, so non issue in my books.
Here's the instruction manual, *throws away the manual*.
I can see this being a good thing for comfort on the saddle as well and moving your contact points around throughout a ride.
Bingo!
Spot on.
is there any point in buying a kickr 4 against kickr core if you already have a power meter with cadence and an additional cassette? and I also won't be using the higher power of the first, because I'm no pro :) I imagine that kickr core with kickr climb would be more than enough? why are you though using the kickr 4 instead of core? thank you very much Shane for all your hard work making high quality videos about smart trainers!
CORE would be fine. It's hard to tell them apart. The Kickr18 has a larger flywheel and adjustable frame.
Does anybody REALLY need this?
Food, water, warmth. Everything else is just fun and games. My take - Nobody needs a Ferrari.... but they make and sell them.
Haha! I guess that's very true. Appreciate the reply.
Shane Miller - GPLama yep how many of us drive a five seater car to the supermarket and work. Now that's one I struggle with daily over any bike toys
I don't think the delay is fixable with firmware alone, especially with the smoothing. There's a radio delay (seems to always be 1-5s with ANT+, I find BLE is lower at least), a delay for the motor to actually move the bike to the target gradient, and then also a delay to smooth out the change (remember the demo at Eurobike didn't do any smoothing).
The only real fix would be for the app (Zwift) to send gradients ahead of what's on screen and allow the trainer to queue adjustments to happen at the correct time for the hardware. Zwift told me they were working on a delay adjustment 2+ years ago but like many things it still hasn't materialised.
I have been advocating for a "Trainer Delay Offset" function from Zwift for over a year. Needs to be "smart" to account for different approach speeds, but this should happen to remedy the resistance and now grade change delays we get from the trainers (and are essentially impossible to eliminate).
For now I think Zwift should just have a simple offset and anything "smart" should be handled by the trainer firmware. That way the communication between Zwift and the hardware can stick to the standard open ANT+/BLE profiles and any extra features should be configured in the Wahoo, Tacx, etc, apps.
Yes, I'd be happy with a simple 2 second (or whatever is a good average) shift in Zwift sending it early. It wouldn't be "perfect", but it would for sure be better.
You look so happy when you go riding :) real love there
Also, I did not realise knife throwing was one of your talents...
Nice review Shane. Looks like there was more side to side motion using the Climb than when on the trainer block. Was this bothersome and did it have any affect on wattage? Thanks!
Didn't feel any different to me having the Climb on the front compared to a wheel. Only the ups and downs. No impact on power, well, none I could tell with that hour of power.
Another great video Shane. Would like to see you re-ride your TT course map you made a video of a few months ago, and see how it compares with the Climb installed.
I like the idea! Stay tuned.
Looks like fun! Thank's for the review :-)
KICKR CLIMB is the top. The only thing I don't like is that it's compatible only with KLICKR trainers. I don't want to change my top trainer Elite Drivo to have the climb experience
I'm curious to know how stable it feels when doing sprint type efforts. It looks stable, but if you jump out of the saddle and throw down hard does it feel properly planted?
I didn't rip out any green jersey sprints... but the contact points are the same as a wheel, so the feel is no different.
Comprehensive Lama review, most excellent.
How are you using two televisions in your setup? Is there another bike that was pulled out of view for this video, or are you using two screens for one Zwift experience?
Two screens into one PC. I also have a splitter that allows me to run a different system on the 2nd screen if I need (Apple TV, another PC, etc)
Hi there! Nice video. I love your reviews. Let me know, is kickr climb working on zwift workouts or only on free rides? Thanks
Only SIM mode free rides on Zwift. You can manually adjust it outside of SIM mode (workouts).
With your collection of trainers, will you be trying other trainers and options with the Kickr Climb? I do hope so
Kickr17 and SNAP17 (the 2nd gen SNAP) are the only trainers to support this as of now (Feb 2018).
Until Wahoo figures out an adapter kit for my Kickr2 this is useless... Plus, I can't see it making much difference in riding, NOT like a rocker plate would... just IMHO. Good review as usual!
Shane Miller - GPLama what are the limitations on using other trainers? The way it pairs directly with the kickr17? So it can't physically pair with a kickr2, plus there's the clearance issue?
Aero tuck on a stationary bike .....
We call it taking the piss, having a laugh. The Internet calls it triggered.
Great video. Your thoughts on this setup vs. the Tacx Neo? Which would you ride more often on your own time?
Neo is quieter... and requires no calibration if you're using it as a power source. There's a ton of other factors too.... so what I ride and what others should ride are not always the same. Your call.
2:05 probably the best part of the review.
What I would like to see is the feature to use the CLIMB in ERG mode. I do my structured workout on my indoor trainer, however to my understanding there is no option to say like: "ok, I design a 4x4 intervall training with a slope of 15% and a wattage level of 320 Watts or a 8% slope at 320 Watts. Between intervalls go down to 3% slope at 190 Watts." I have to change it manually on the CLIMB remote directly. As far as I know it will only adjust if using a software such as ZWIFT. Would be nice to see more usability of the CLIMB in the ERG mode.
After 11 months of use mine just broke. I was going up the subway climb and standing when it hit 14%. A moment later I came crashing down when the grade simulator collapsed. Pretty big shock to my neck! Contacted Wahoo. A replacement is en route. Has anyone else had this problem?
Ouch!
Yeah they break but wahoo does replace them
Good review 👍... in your opinion which would be a better set up for a more immersive zwift experience.. tacx neo or kickr snap 17 with a climb?? (Both set ups around £1000 uk)
The climb for sure... as it moves more naturally, well, as you'd expect a bike to move on hills. But you're comparing direct drive to wheel-on, so there're two different things.
Nice one mate, very useful and detailed
Awesome review. My dream cave just added another component!
My taste in music...you must be a Mamil....
My credit card is calling
To get the Climb to move the correct amount in Zwift, you can leave the difficulty at 50%, and just double your wheelbase length on the Wahoo App for Climb Setup.
Yes. Covered in detail here: ua-cam.com/video/7AZ_j0HDDeQ/v-deo.html
What’s the diameter of the climbr power supply plug connector? I have found one without the supply
That's a good one for Wahoo support.
Thanks Shane invaluable info as always , cheers.
Safety hazard at 6:05 haha
@16:20 it looks like you're well into the steep downhill (negative 13-14%), but the Climb still isn't down as far as it should be? If it's max is -10% ish, shouldn't it be bottomed out there?
The Zwift interaction is a work in progress... stay tuned for exactly what it does vs what's on screen with upcoming releases from Zwift.
That’s an interesting one - in the fe-c gradient data coming from zwift - down gradient values are exactly -0.5 * the up gradient values. Perhaps because the resistance drop off was too severe on the way down when it was 1 to 1. But it needs to be 1 to 1 for the Climb otherwise it would never level back out.
That... makes a lot of sense to what I've felt actually. Always wondered why I could still push downhill so hard in Zwift compared to usually being totally spun out somewhere between 30-40mph IRL. I figured it was just flywheel inertia vs the real thing or whatever. But the fact that during ERG mode or calibrations I could get spun out confused me then.
I feel like they should change that anyways then, but I can see how that'd throw a wrench into things. For one, getting the 100kph achievement would be more difficult (unless turning the trainer difficulty to 0 just causes you to get 0% gradient when going downhill too???), and it would mess with racing times since descending certain slopes would cause more people to be spun out.
hngldr yes, trainer difficulty is a multiplier of 0 to 1.0 * the up AND the down, so 0 is no down slope which gives racers the same advantage that non-interactive trainer users get - MORE resistance going down and less likely to spin out, so more power.
I want to ask the following questions:
Why didn't you do a full out sprint?
Why do you use the block for the front wheel?
And is it compatible with other trainers?
BUT I actually read the comments before I ask questions, and seeing as you answered them all 20 times I'll leave you be lol
Great review as always Shane!
G'day Mullens! (Legend multiple Aussie Champion for anyone reading the comments!)
- A full out sprint - I didn't think it was all that important, it's not a power meter or a flywheel/trainer. It's held up fine in sprints in follow up rides. I'll do one on the next video I do on the Climb (likely with the Kickr SNAP).
- I use a front wheel block on static trainers to take the pressure off my hands/arms/arse. Without steering, veering, and the changing centre of gravity you get outside with accelerations/hills, I find it more comfortable to jack the front up a few inches. Just personal preference.
- The Climb is only compatible with the trainers that have full up/down pivots with the rear drops. So at the moment that's the Kickr17/SNAP17. Using this with a trainer where the bike is 'locked in' will eventually grind and wear hangers and dropouts, and people will get all grumpy. I'm sure Wahoo would love to have this compatible with all trainers, it'd x4 their ability to sell more.... but... it just won't work at this point with other trainers.
OH MY GOD you didn't even read my full comment did you..??? lol
But thanks for the in depth reply :)
I read it all! Promise. They were good questions I could summarise for everyone else to read too. :)
Well I was taking the piss with those questions, but I do enjoy your reviews! And I too use a block to take the pressure off my hands, so pro.
They should have put some road feel into it, that would have been fun
And steering in Zwift.
I know you're the go-to Zwift guy, but it would be good to see how this works with other software platforms.
I use BigRingVR as well as Zwift, so it would be cool to see how this works with that.
Let's see what they and the others announce in regards to compatibility.
Oh! I was under the impression that as the climb connects directly to the trainer, developers wouldn't have to do anything to add the climb functionality.
I thought that the slope was sent or calculated by the trainer, which then broadcasted instructions to the climb re how to move.
That's the theory (and practice). Then there's the quirks like ERG mode and how that integrates with something like this. Also the delay/lag might need to be factored in on the controlling software side of things. I'll cover more of the specifics in the coming weeks as there's updates and more support for this hardware.
In your honest opinion, which has more training benefit? Tacx NEO road feel or the Kickr Climb?
Radom pop quiz answer - The Climb. But it comes down to how you use either and for what benefit.
I have a climb and I generally like it. The biggest problem is that Zwift often fails to deliver the gradient info to the unit. I’ve done all kinds of experiments and there’s no rhyme or reason to when it works and when it does not. You often won’t know that anything is wrong until 5 minutes into a Zwift ride because they usually start at 0%. So as soon as you warm up... nothing. You have a $650 front wheel stand. 🤷🏽♂️
what bikes work with the climb?
Curious if they will be able to improve the kickr climb Zwift integration as you mentioned. I thought the Climb just takes the data directly from the Kickr, so Zwift doesn't even know about it. I hope that it can be resolved though! I am looking forward to this.
Hi Shane, I am coming to this a year later, so did they sort out the lag between Zwift and the climb so there is no delay in the end? Also, have there been any changes regarding ERG mode please? Thanks for the great review as always :)
No major updates I'm aware of sorry.
Whats people's verdict on the Kickr Climb 2 years on. Not many recent videos on this
The unit I have is still working fine. Nothing new to report on so you won’t see a lot of content on it. (The standard media rarely cover anything that isn’t ‘new’)
@@gplama thats understandable. I want it, I don't need it and not certain it'll make my Zwift life £499 better......haha... Thanks for the speedy reply 👍
Missing the major selling point entirely - engagement of different muscles due to the different angle the bike is on during climbs and descents - ergo, better training for the real world as you're building muscles (that wouldn't ordinarily be engaged on a trainer) on the trainer that more closely resemble real-world muscle use. At least, that's what they were touting at Eurobike.
Good work mate. Cheers 👍👍
Any reason the Climb wouldn't work with a Tacx Genius (or other Tacx wheel-on trainers where the back wheel is held in place with two cups "grabbing" over a special Tacx QR skewer)? I can lift up my front wheel freely all the way until the bike is vertical (even longer if it weren't for the wall behind the bike) while the bike is on the trainer. No restistance or grinding whatsoever.
Of course I mean using the remote to manually control the grade of the Climb, I know I need a Kickr trainer to make it automatic.
As long as you're confident it's moving freely without grinding anything, then it'll be good to use manually.
Absolutely, the Tacx skewers have a perfectly round steel cap on each end which goes into correspondng cups on the trainer lock-in mecanism. There is no resistance whatsoever when the front wheel is lifted. Here is video of the Tacx setup: ua-cam.com/video/rCfSIT0s2lM/v-deo.html
great video as usual Shane!
The lag you noticed is interesting - that's what I notice from a Tacx Neo regularly and I've tried all sorts of configuration and adapter changes. With the CLIMB it's finally the physical depiction of my lag experience with Zwift. It makes drafting infuriating among other things. Do you not get that lag at all from the KICKR?
Perhaps even from the noise, it might sound like the KICKR is behaving the same way (with the lag), you just got used to it? Also, since the KICKR is sending the gradient info I guess the lag will only be as good as the trainer gets it, and if they added any delay to relaying the message then the CLIMB is definitely not ideal for the fast changes.
There's lag... there's always lag. Everyone complains initially as there's a big disconnect. There hasn't been a lot of movement in regards to Zwift updates about the issue. Let's see what Zwift can do with future updates.
Nice. 4K :)
Shane any chance of a review of a rocker plate? They look cool and might also add to the ride experience
If I can get one, sure. Not too keen on making one from scratch. I've got a pile of things on my plate at the moment before getting into another DIY.
Shane Miller - GPLama excellent. They sure look interesting. Just a matter of time before there are more people making and selling them. Great potential for long rides. Big bunnings project. More than the bike stand
What about sprinting with this thing on? Will it crack to pieces??
Mine hasn't.
Is it worth it when specifically training for cycling in the mountains? I mean when cycling uphill your balance shifts and it’s hard to adapt to that when everything near you is flat
Great review Shane what is the weight limit of it please.
Weight Limit - 250lbs (same as KICKR/SNAP)
G'day Shane, nay idea if the up/down lag has been sorted out.
It's been a while... which particular point in the video are you referring to?
at 13:50 you are testing within the ssss where its dips down then up you mention there is a bit of lag. you then once again mention the lag of approx 2sec or so @ 17:40.
Since this unit works from data transmitted from the trainer does the trainer difficulty slider in Zwift affect the climb unit??
Stay tuned on this one.... Zwift are still nailing the exact functionality with this.
Thanks for a great video [as usual]. Possible to get the shipping box size and weight? I'd have to carry one back to India from the US.
12.3kgs. 30x18x8 inches.
Wow, that was fast. Thanks so much.
When they drop to £250 or less I'm in ... at £500 I can live without it
Looks like a lot of fun though
Nice video. How is Trainer difficulty accounted for? If it is set at 50% does the trainer then relay the corrected grade to the climb?
More on this soon.
Is it compatible with others brand smart trainer ?
No
Great video!
can you have a go at building a turbo rocker plate?
I'd pay to watch that. No cutting away to here's one I did earlier like the mounting of TVs on walls :)
Maybe. Depends on time and cost.
the use of rocker plates voids any warranties (according to Wahoo... as we would expect)
But also, I don't know about the stability. Even in this vid, your limited out of the saddle stuff when climing - it looked a little wonky. I noticed you sat back down pretty quickly (which yes, yes, I know - seated climbing is better... :P), I "dance" quite a bit out of the saddle (sprints or climbs) & I hope this thing will be stable enough. I think a rocker plate would just amplify the issue. Your thoughts, Shane?
Jeff, can you provide data or proof to your claim of voided warranties? I am actively involved with rocker development and have seen nothing on that from any maker.
I'm currently dealing with a warranty claim on a Kickr Snap; I specifically asked the CS at Wahoo I'm working w/about rocker plates & included in my email from this rep was:
"...as far as the use of 'rocker plates': we do not recommend the use of these with the KICKR, KICKR SNAP, or the upcoming CLIMB not only because most are homemade (therefore impossible to assure tolerances), but also because none of the units have been designed for the different external forces that would/could be applied to their product."
Sorry, Chad; I love the idea of the rocker plates myself & had started toying with some different design ideas....now shelved. Like I said, I already had to send my SNAP back in for bad bearings after two weeks of riding!!! (VERY frustrating, hoping its just an anomaly)
Also - one of my rides is a '17 Felt AR3; it has a 130mm rear axle width - I get a very liberal amount of side-to-side movement when it's in my SNAP (nothing to do w/the bearing issue - in fact I've been assured it's "within tolerances". However, it still seems odd to have about an inch of left/right tire travel on the roller... anyone else have this issue??)
i wish they would put some money into making stuff like this for handcycles
It must feel a lot more realistic just having some flexibility and movement at the front end of the bike.
You were talking about two settings on the Wahoo Fitness app. (timer 10:30), One was type of bike (axle height), the other you talked about (wheel base), which I don't know other than my height.Can you tell me what setting you were using as I will be using a road bike as well. My climb is coming in August.
KWC by now I am sure you’ve figured it out. The wheelbase is the distance between the front and rear axle. The unit needs that to calculate the height once it receives the grade info. Some bikes are longer than others.
What size adapters ones for a normal road bike with the quick release?
Nice review (as always). Thinking about getting one as loving my Kickr trainer and Zwift but keen to add an extra element of realism. Love it how the instruction manual is quickly discarded during the unboxing!
I didn’t post publically because Wahoo assured two weeks ago me that they had no other instances of similar catastrophic failure. But now I've seen multiple similar reports on Facebook groups. I’m 77kg and was on a flat at 200wkg when the belt broke suddenly dropping to full negative. I regularly sprint at 1000w and and am out of saddle weight forward on punchy climbs above 7wkg - had this happened during one of those instances I would have been injured. My replacement is arriving this week - I am very concerned. I should have looked more closely at the belt - I wonder what the rating is. Wahoo tech assured me that they had put tons of hours on dynamo but I am worried they could have understimated the literal bouncing that goes into the system in a sprint. I have 2000km + on the climb - mostly racing.
Nasty. I’ll keep an eye on user reports.