(TIMESTAMPS BELOW) Hope you all enjoy the in-depth content! What do you think about this video? We welcome any (concise, constructive) feedback you'd like to share on specific likes, dislikes, or suggestions! NOTES/CORRECTIONS: --> Around 14:20, the notes say "anterior pelvic tilt". This is incorrect; it should say "posterior pelvic tilt". Rest assured I've fired both Jason and Dan as proof readers ;) - Emile --> Because I know there will be some confusion about this: the term "no hangs" is sometimes used to refer to hangboarding that involves not lifting your feet off the ground. As far as I know this is an erroneous use of the term. "No hangs" refers to block pulls (or farmer crimps or whatever you want to call them), where you can train finger strength "with no hanging" (makes sense, right?). --> Apologies in advance for some of the focusing issues; we had to improvise with this location and the cameras did not like the "busy" background. 00:00 Intro and Overview 01:04 A brief note about Dan and this video --> PART 1: CONTEXT 01:49 Background Info: Why are "no hangs" so popular now? 02:44 Relevance: Why should I do this exercise? 07:21 Why this video is freeeeeee!! --> PART 2: BEFORE YOU BEGIN 08:27 Equipment: What gear should I use? 09:53 Holds: Should I do pinches, pockets, monos, or crimps? 11:20 Edges: What size edge should I use? 11:34 Grip: Which type of grip should I use? 12:09 Bonus: How should I mount the weight? --> PART 3: GETTING STARTED 13:25 Form: How do I perform no hangs properly? 14:57 Style: Should I do short reps or long holds? --> PART 4: FIRST SESSION 16:46 Estimate: Should I do the same weight as I do on the hangboard? 18:24 Initial Testing: How do I figure out my working weight? 21:51 Subsequent Sessions: How do I structure future workouts? --> PART 5: PROGRAMMING 24:27 Session Scheduling: When should I do this? 24:48 Frequency: How often should I do this? 25:16 Long-Term: How long should I do this? 25:56 Bonus: Should I combine this with other finger training? --> PART 6: PROGRESSION 26:45 Basic Progression: How do I keep improving? 28:38 Advanced Progression: What if basic progression stops working? 31:55 Intuitive Progression: How do I manage real-world variability? 32:53 Outro: Special thanks to Mesa Rim North City!
It's absolutely wild to me how Dan can film these long uncut segments without messing up or pausing to think about what he's going to say next. As always, love the content! Very helpful!
I just love how the "best" way to do it is said to be "the one that the person prefers" (of course when reasonable). So many coaches overlook the mental component! The training plan that works the best is the one that you actually do! Terrific job as always :)
Was really impressed with this video. Intelligently spoke to the subject for thirty minutes without reading from a script behind the camera and had the cleanest shirt I have ever seen 🔥
Haha it always impresses us too how Dan can eloquently speak at length about all these topics on command. Highly intelligent + many years of experience makes him a real 💎. -Emile
Any time I see a nuanced video that repeats "It depends" I immediately feel better about sharing it. Enjoying the depth of information here and, as someone who has used no-hang as a primary strength training modality for myself and clients, I'll be continuing to share this as a great explanation of application. My favorite part is the recommendation to "set" the grip with your other hand (even rep-to-rep), as I've seen a LOT of people think their non-working hand is off-limits or something. Thanks for providing this educational material, these types of videos can take a LONG time to produce and do well!
Thank you for the kind words! It depends is one of my favorite phrases as well, unfortunately a lot of the world prefers strong definitives hah. Glad you've also had good success with this training mode!
2:46 The reason I got into no hangs was because I was in an area with no climbing gyms, and I could bring a no-hang board to the regular gym and load it up there easily.
I had great success with this. I'm 85kg. I can't just start fingerboarding like a 60kg climber can. Bodyweight also varies. I like this method because it's like normal gym training and you can make small controlled increments, which is hard to do with bodyweight fingerboarding
Amazing stuff! So many youtube coaches talk about this training method, but this one goes into so much dept whilst still being simple and clear with it. Super helpful and wel presented!
I really appreciate the simple-complicated advanced progression example! This is something I was always confused about with weight training, how to get progressive overload once you are at that max range. Excited to give that a try!
This is a awesome tool when you have access to a gym (room), e.g., in your apartment community, office or just a gym nearby. You can attach the tool to a “pulling machine” where the wire is attached to the machine at the bottom. There you can usually sets weights in steps of 1 pound.
Yup! Thanks for pointing that out! We wanted to include that as an option as well, but the vid was getting long and we temporarily didn’t have access to a pulley machine… Works surprisingly well with a lat pull down (cable pull up) machine as well!!
Wow! This is honestly the best video on finger strength training ever. Especially for people who want to get started on it. It's perfect how the first session is explained in detail and then there's options for basic progressions with not much thought needed but also long term outlooks of what this training tool could become. I feel like all questions are answered but I do have one: how does this content translate to hangboarding? Can I use all of this and just do it with 7-3 repeaters or something? Would also love a full video exactly like this one but for hangboarding. I know it's been done too often but I feel it would be THE new guide❤
More informative and educating video ever! Thanks a lot! A question though: what about the rest time between the sets (both during the ramping stage and between the work sets)?
As a climber whose weight fluctuates due to other sport focus, i also find these very useful to manage progression rather than weighing myself immediately before each hang board session and adjusting %body weight added.
Another advantage! If you live in a rental and can't mount a hang board for risk of losing your security deposit. This can be a nice alternative to at-home finger strength training ✌️
25:00 - very surprised at the recommendation that this be done 3 times a week (for what is a max strength protocol). Would you typically reduce climbing volume when programming this?
Ya that's what I was thinking. Tendons take way longer to heal than muscles, so I'd think 1-2 a week with climbing would be the best, but I'd want to know hooper's opinion on this.
Max strength is often done 3x per week. It works very well and is the go to method for power lifting and other strength sport. There is no meaningfully elevated risk here with reasonable volume control. Climbing volume can be reduced slightly, especially the first couple weeks, but it isn’t often much of an issue. It is not uncommon to see bouldering performance decline after grip training for the first few sessions, but people adapt rapidly, and it becomes a surprisingly effective “warmup”
Ah yes! I actually meant to mention that, but forgot. Super super convenient as a method for travel when coupled with a force gauge. Another travel hack (if you’re going to be in one area for a while) is that “sand bag tent weights” are super cheap, pack down to almost nothing, and you can easily fill them for use with exercise wherever you end up. Hope it’s helpful!
I’ve been using this type of “no-hang” training for a couple year and have had some good results. I like it cuz my body weight fluctuates and it’s annoying to have to figure out percentages of max lifts with that as a factor. In addition I made all the equipment myself out of pipe and scrap wood so...cheap!
I still find it amazing that techniques like just deadlifting using a crimp edge is relatively new to the scene. Coming from a strength training background the first thing I wanted to do when I started climbing was to develop a program/ exercises to speed up the process. The advice of "just climb more" is not good advice if the person is legitimately looking to progress. Thanks for the video!
Yeah 😅 climbers have been quite slow to adopt/adapt well-established tools and techniques that in hindsight seem like no-brainers. Resistance training possibly being the most humorous of oversights. -Emile
Well this seems to fit into hypertrophy weight training quite nicely... isolating it more to the hand itself, since everything else could already part of a workout routine outside of climbing (I personally do suspended ring stuff). I already have a loading pin (and plates) for hypertrophy forearm training, this would fit so easily into that section of the workout. Plus it's not ideal to have a hangboard in an apartment for example.
One of the best, if not the best vid I've seen pertaining to progression & playing with the different parameters such as sets, reps, load, & duration (+rests). Isn't progression non-linear? Then why do the vids keep getting better with no end in sight? 😂
Thank you, this video is truly great. I've been wondering about implementing no hangs as I recently purchased a tension block. But the practical tips about progressing are really clear and it feels like they will really help me, even outside of this exercise!
In terms of testing into your max weight, I'm confused by why failure should happen at the 4th rep if you are doing sets of 3 reps to work up to your max weight (content from 18:25 - 21:47). Should I start at 50% of my max weight and do sets of 4 reps?
So one advantage that you didn't mention is that it makes your lifts easily measurable. 10 reps at X kilos. This way you can see how you are improving or to make sure that you are constantly overloading by adding small weight every so often.
Absolutely! But that's also true for pretty much any exercise that involves weight or rep progression, so it doesn't necessarily bear explanation. -Emile
I typically advise my climbing patients to do their finger training after their (slightly shortened) climbing session, rather than before, under the assumption that training is more structured and controlled, and they can better modulate the load based on how they're feeling. Conversely, climbing is more dynamic and unpredictable, and if they've already pushed their fingers to the max while training, they may be more likely to suffer an injury while climbing. Any thoughts? Ps. love your content, I frequently advise my clients to check out your videos! Keep up the good work.
I know you didn't ask me specifically, but it's generally accepted that strength training be done prior to the activity in question, or in isolation of said activity (separate day or at separated by several hours for more conditioned athletes). Why would you want to "push their fingers to the max" when they're entering the finger training pre-fatigued, rather than immediately after a brief progressive warm-up?
@@RFrecka I should clarify that it's not my preference that my clients train and climb in the same session (they often don't have training tools at home), but when they ask whether it's better if they train before or after climbing, that has been my recommendation. I see far more injuries from climbing than I do from training, so to me it seems less risky doing it in that order. I appreciate your input.
Great video! I can see why you would perhaps train this over a hangboard but in the context of getting better at bouldering as a whole, is there benefit to this type of training over just climbing on steep boards like a spraywall or moonboard?
In my experience, this is a great tool to squeeze in a short session during rest days. Spraywall or moonboard sessions are great for multiple reasons but can be very taxing.
What I try and remind my clients of is climbing is training when done with intention. If we are training finger strength and you get on finger intensive board problems, there is not a reason to then add in finger strength lift work atop. If the skin is failing and the session is shorter than anticipated, feel free to tack on a few sets, or if this is a prework session then definitely the warm and work process for a lift session is much faster and targeted. As well, I do this before any given board session to autoregulate; if I am not able to lift 95% bodyweight as a half in my left and chisel in my right, I am not primed enough or may need to alter expectations, session plans, or simply head home. But this over a board? Take the board, but be intentional to work fingers.
@Jaaravs the key word here is “just”. It is common and effective to do dedicated finger training along with spray wall climbing. It’s not necessary for climbers earlier in their career, but it’s effective and manageable at all levels if volume is controlled reasonably. I would certainly not do fingerboard or no hangs “instead” of board climbing.
These work great for me as a carpenter/builder who has an intrinsically stronger dominant hand. I simply start with my left hand and then mirror the weight to try and alleviate the imbalance. I do have a question however. At my local gym one of the staff has donated a Crimpwerks device (14mm edge) which I love. I wanted to start doing no hangs at home and found that this company no longer makes these products, so seeing videos of other people using portable hangboards for no hangs I ordered some Metolius wood rock rings. The 15mm edge is nice, square and feels comfortable, but with the 2 additional larger rungs the device is much longer than the Crimpwerks device. It is also 'extended' with a loop of accessory cord as opposed to the Crimpwerks device which connects directly to the loading pin via a carabiner. With the wood rock rings I can basically get to the end of the 'dead-lift' movement (legs almost straight) without even weighting the device and lift the weight barely an inch or so. With the Crimpwerks device I am weighted throughout a significant portion of the dead-lift movement and lift the weight 3 or 4 inches higher at least. Does this difference in height lifted make a difference?
definitely does change matters to have to lift with the arm compared to standing into the weight. For one, this still means the shoulders can be limiting factors, especially while fatigued, but makes recruiting finger strength for heavier lifts more difficult. If you can, try to shorten the cord or any attachment pins such as carabiners and if necessary simply cut excess of the rock rings as long as this will still take cord.
@@tombuckett1574 hope that helps, also if you have access to a router it is pretty easy to turn an offcut of a stud into a perfect one hand training tool. stability is a big issue, the rock rings bring the cord straight down the middle of the edge which means that actually gives a negative edge when weighted, whereas the tension blocks have the cord brought too close to the axis. if you do make a thing, give yourself as deep an edge as possible to still have to flex at the dip joint, make sure the cord comes through the board parallel and close to the edge, and have the holes for the cord spaced wider than the hand.
Man, absolutely love this in depth content. Such a down to earth way of communicating your knowledge also. Wondering how a common weekly structure looks for you in regards of finger training and climbing (maybe intensive strength training aswell if you do so). Like how many sessions of these are you doing in total and how much rest in between.
Absolutely great video! My only question is how do you handle multiple grips? E.g. do you do the x sets for crimping, then x sets for 3 finger drag, then pinch etc?
Can’t speak for Dan, but I personally prefer that method rather than alternating between grips. I do my primary grip sets first (typically half crimp), then move on to my secondary grip after (typically drag or full crimp). That way I ensure maximum quality sets for my primary grip, while also avoiding the annoyance of alternating grips a bunch (having to swap out weights between sets, flipping the block around, etc.). -Emile
Thanks, great in-depth explanation. It seems like No Hangs has come to refer to lifts with these devices in the USA, whereas in Europe I think No Hangs is used for feet down fingerboarding, it's a pun on Max Hangs? 🤷♂
Maybe? Not sure! Unfortunately there's no official lexicon we can reference. Calling any type of hanging exercise (including reduced weight / feet-on-the-ground hangs) "no hangs" doesn't make much sense to me. I do love a good pun though :) and glad you liked the video!
Question.. I what if one hand is way stronger than the other, such as a 15-20 lbs difference in max pull? How should training change to accommodate this difference?
You can either change the weight each time you switch hands (annoying), use two loading pins with different weight (ideal), or use your other hand to give the weaker hand a tiny bit of assistance (also perfect fine, just a little harder to track). -Emile
That does sound very interesting! Another reason one might want this over hangboarding is that it sounds a lot less cumbersome. I'm no homeowner and my landlord doesn't want any holes drilled into the walls for a hangboard, so if I want one, I need to get a pull-up bar and mess around to get a hangboard attached to it as best I can. Or I can pay for a loading pin ($20, says Dan), a cheap portable hangboard ($40 or so), some weights, and do no-hang training just like that. All small gear I can tuck away in a corner of my room, as opposed to either annoying my roommates with a massive pull-up bar in a doorframe, or having to take it on and off every time I train. I'll definitely be considering doing no-hangs!
Great video. I’d like to challenge the idea that rowing motion is no good. I’ve been working with some rowing movements with a weighted barbell in a ‘landmine’ configuration - Meadows row or bolstered with a bench. You can loop the bar end with the crimp block rope, or just slide a 2” pvc section over the bar end for wider pinch. Seems a bit better if your focus is climbing than just deadlift style.
I believe he says this because either your row or the fingers are going to be your limiting factors, so instead of them limiting each other, it would be more effective to train your rows with a higher weight and then your fingers with higher weight because its not sawing or moving, and you know specifically this is what your training. allows for more consistent results as well so you can accurately progressive overload.
i'v been doing no hangs for about 6 months now but just copied my hangboarding routine of repeaters 7-3 times 5reps rest 3 minutes and do 5 sets. Any downside to this?
What about how fingertips should lay on edges of tension block/hangboard (flat-fingered or tip-mashed)? I often find that I am hanging on the hangboard with my fingertips slightly mashed up rather than being completely flat on the edge
Very nice and informative video! This comment might not be noticed and unread but ill shoot my shot anyways. A question sprung to mind. I noticed that the way youve tied and used the sling makes the crimp block hang at an over 90° angle when loaded. It kind of leans away from him making the edge hes crimping more positive and easier to hold. You can clearly see what Im talking about @ 14:20 ish. Will that have any positive or negative effect? I would assume the ideal angle of the edge would be at 90°? Not saying its right or wrong. Hes garanteed way more educated than me on the subject. Am i nitpicking here?
Thank you for this!! I am unable to make the most of two handed hangboarding due to unique overhead morphology in my forearms/hands so I’m looking into single hand training options. Will be taking Dan’s advice for a test drive!
I have been doing an arm-lifting training program as part of a training program I made and it has been amazing for me! As someone who has been renting for years this has finally let me train at home, which is much easier to keep consistent than gym visits. The ability to train different grips at less-than-body-weight without pulleys is awesome. I have progressed my 20 mm hangs and 110 mm pinch by 5 kgs so far, can't wait to see if I can get some good impact with my leading. I feel my finger strength has been a lot lower than core and shoulder strength forever, but I have been wondering: when do I know if my shoulder strength is lagging behind my finger strength (before risking injury that is)? Do I rectify by accompanying my arm-lifts with some weighted shrugs, pullups, and rotator cuff exercises? Thanks!
Are short reps less fatiguing than long holds when doing "no hangs"? If yes, then I suppose that short reps are better as recovery should be quicker & safer when combined with climbing sessions. Is that correct? Does that mean it is more efficient? Are there any other benefits in longer holds? Thank you for amazing video :)
Amazing info and great progression detail but, how would you deal with strength differences between hands? Should you work at the weakest hand load or keep training them independently?
You do them both at the same time, set to set, and then once the weaker one taps out, you continue on with the other hand. Or if you're going to do a bunch of working sets, maybe just have the stronger hand do extra reps or extra time. I'd personally rather do that than changing the weight constantly.
Dan thanks for the awesome video! Can you help me understand why you wouldn't train grip strength the same way you would any other muscle group? In most cases, focusing on rep ranges between 10-30 with a total weekly volume of 15-20 sets executing time under tension with 2 second eccentrics and building a periodization phase where you're starting with 3-4 reps in reserve week one, moving through several weeks increasing the load and then entering a deload phase for a week is an optimal way to train. This is well understood in exercise science for other muscle groups for maximizing hypertrophy. I'm all in on the tension block training. I'd just like to ensure I'm programming it correctly.
Since this is a finger *strength* workout we're going to be following closer to traditional strength training protocols, not hypertrophy training. Our goal with this workout is to increase strength, not optimize for maximum hypertrophy. Hope that helps! :) -Emile
About short or long reps : aren't they different stimulus ? Do the series of short reps, performed back to back, work more on concentric and hypertophy of the finger flexors, than long reps that are more an isometric effort ?
I've been doing these a lot since the Yves video. I also added a wrist wench into my routine because of that, and would be curious about your thoughts maybe in a future video on that device. My max pulls on 20mm at around 150lbs seemed to be limited by more my lat/shoulders rather than my fingers - I'm not sure if my height ratios works out to where I can 'deadlift' most of the weight with my legs. I think I will go down in weight and edge size, but was wondering if there'd be any benefit to adding platforms or something to be able to lift the pin off the ground with less lat engagement and use more of my legs. Thanks for the comprehensive video Dan !
definitely try different setups as being able to avoid lifting with the arm will help you consistently load the fingers maximally. I get myself directly overtop of the stack, wear shoes, and stand on some smaller plates to give an extra inch of height. Plus, you can almost always shorten the attachment point, tie a knot or use a smaller carabiner or a shorter pin or similar and then a stable platform if you can.
Platforms are a good call. Bumper plates work well, lots of gym have wood or metal platforms as well. Getting a good pulling stance is important for getting the most out of these lifts, but for one reason or another isn’t always possible. If you feel “pull limited”, moving to a smaller or more difficult grip is an easy fix. (a good way to tell, if you aren’t sure is to measure output on better are worse holds. If they’re similar, you’re probably not entirely hand limited)
Can work, but most people are terrible at gauging how hard they are trying, so a force gauge is likely necessary to make reliable progress with a board vs weights.
Since a a pulley injurie, I rehab my finger with the "farmer grip" but I also do this for the other finger (one by one) and doing this, I feel being more aware of individual finger weakness...(I don't have dumbbell weight more than 15kg..and ok I'm stingy but damn!! it expensive). So, do you think the transfert on climbing will be as goo as doing the exercice like you do? (i hope you could understand my gibberish ^^, I'm french and everybody knows how french people suck with foreign language :) ). And by the way, thank for your great work!!...and with the french accent: "sank iou for iour grèt work" ;)
I had a pulley injure and I rehab it with the Block from Tension that he is using but instead of “deadlifting” the weight i was “curling” it, to imitate the range of motion of when you crimp, with this method I improved very quickly and got out of the injury way quicker than others methods
Do you think there's a quantifiable way to get resistance from bands instead of plates? Also. What do you think about doing finger curls and also what do you think about a more advanced progression where you use teams of fingers or training them individually? Thank you also for putting this great content out there!
Resistance bands: not really I’m afraid. It’s technically possible of course, but it’s far more trouble than it’s worth. If you need to get around weights, and you would also like quantifiable, I think a force gauge is the way to go. I personally like tindeq, but there are more and less expensive options that will also work just fine. Finger curls are great. We were going to cover them in this video initially, but things started getting a bit too long. Training teams (pockets, monos, etc) isn’t necessarily “more advanced”, but it’s certainly something you can do. Great to include if you’re planing to climb on pockets at some point, probably fine if you’re not. Training pocket strength with the intention of carryover to other grips is not a typical training modality, so I can’t say with certainty. It will certainly build strength compared to not doing it. But I doubt (for example) that training 2 fingers at a time will transfer better to half crimp or open hand strength than training half crimp or open hand directly.
My main doubt here: in the suggested training should I use the block with the 35mm hole or 10mm? I am not sure if it is effective with 10mm? Or I simply adjust the max rep strength with each one as I grow stronger?
Great vid and just watched some of it again as think I've tweaked my shoulder by overdoing it on these. 🤔 Possibly by 'hanging' for too long with a heavy weight. Was aiming for 5s. Your time under tension time looked quite short though - like a mear second or two? Is the general consensus now that for max strength training, hang duration is not important? It's just about lifting the weight and putting it down again (same would apply to fingeboarding) so a 1 to 3 second hang is fine? I'm thinking the answer is 'yes' 😄 and once you can do a certain number of reps like that, one could then try to increase the time under tension for that weight to increase capacity for those times on a route or boulder where I'm on holds for longer than 3s! ?? 😵💫 Cheers! 😀
I don't understand why the short "up-and-down"-reps would be just as effective at increasing strength as longer holds. Don't isometric exercises generally need a longer time under tension to be effective than eccentric/concentric movements?
It works, but not as well. Our ability to intentionally and accurately regulate force output without a weight or something to lift (and thus provide feedback) is extremely poor. There are some decent and fairly cheap force gauges that help alleviate this problem if you want to experiment with that method.
It’s made by Tension: tensionclimbing.com/products/the-block-2 Or if you want to buy a similar block that also helps support the channel, check out Frictitious: bit.ly/3yM0Jv1 Use code “hoopersbeta” for a discount 💪
What do you recommend should be the load of a working max set? Yves told in the lattice video that his training load is at 80% of his maximum lifting power. (For example, he is able to lift 100kg, so he normally trains with 80kg) What do you say about that? I typically go almost always all out in my sets which is probably not the best idea?!
Hooper! I love all your videos. My one critique is to have dan actually do the workout, So many climbers show HYPOTHETICAL hangboarding workouts, but don't actually DO the workout. I'd love a boring 30 min, 1 hour video of someone actually doing this workout, so I could "follow along". Just a suggestion,
What if your left side is weaker than your right, and you can do 2-4 more reps on your right? Should you limit the amount of reps you do on your right side, or just take both to form failure?
I've been climbing for many years and never have any issues with pain/tinglinless in my arms after a session. However, every time I try and incorporate light hangboarding into my practice with proper technique, I often find my arms the next day to be tweaky/tingilgy. Why can my body handle an all out bouldering/lead session, but can't seem to adapt to a simple finger strength regiment of repeaters?
Good question! Inevitably, the weight you use for the warm up will be lighter than the working sets, so you can do a slightly longer hold in the warm ups (~20 seconds). But for your working set, you can aim for ~7-10 seconds. You should stop though if you feel your hand opening up (and if it's before that time frame, you may need to decrease the weight). You don't want/need to hit that point of failure (hand opening up) especially with the working sets.
Obviously it’s likely less than ideal, but how well could someone use this at home without a weight setup? eg. by using the cord around your foot and just pushing away from your hand while you lift/pull?
I’d use a force gauge if you can. Some decent ones are available for ~$40-50 Very very hard to do this well without some sort of force feedback. Not impossible though, and better than nothing in a pinch.
Which one is better guys? This one, Hang on 20mm edge with pulley system to reduce weight or recruitment pulls? For finger strength. My fingers suck and I need to do something😢
Pick the one that you are most likely to do consistently and safely (whether due to enjoyment, convenience, intuitiveness of progression, etc). As long as you get the basics of progression and recovery down, there are lots of methods that will work about equally well. Don’t worry about the method as much as how you execute it. -Emile
Great video guys! I have followd this routine for six months now and hit a hard plateau that I can't seem to overcome (my one rep-max is not going anywhere). I have tried switching in between different grip variations (4 finger half-crimp, three finger front/back) in order to get some more adaptation but nothing seems to help. What protocol can you recommend to overcome that plateau?
Hard to say for your specific circumstances (no idea of your background or the rest of your training), but I'd experiment more with sets and reps. Each session, or at least each week, think about what you might be able to do more of. Sometimes its an extra rep or an extra set, sometimes its a little more weight. Playing with edge sizes while still using the same grip (half crimp for example) can be helpful as well. There are much more elaborate things you can do as well, but probably not necessary yet, and more appropriate for a coaching call than a youtube comment. Hope that helps, and good luck!!
I don’t think there’s an “official” term. “Low intensity hangs” or “sub-max hangs” would be my suggestions. You’re still hanging, just with less wait (the same as if you took your feet off the ground but used a pulley to remove some body weight), so calling it as such makes sense to me. :) -Emile
@@HoopersBeta I do them all the time and I learned of them a few years ago as "no hangs". Until there's another exact official term, I'm still going to call them "no hangs" because to me, they're just putting pressure on your toes and fingers without hanging, even though with a hangboard it's what the name would suggest. Coming from an armlifting background, using weights and loading pins is just different types of deadlifts. V-bar or vertical bar deadlifts to be exact. I'm happy to use whatever official terminology there is for the act of using a hangboard with your feet on climbing holds like I do. I just don't want to have to explain what I do every single time with so many words. People usually interpret "no hangs" to mean what I'm trying to infer.
The term seems to be used variably depending on whom you ask. There's no official climbing dictionary, so it's essentially up to personal preference. You can call them what you like! Personally, I don't think hanging exercises should be called "no hangs", but 🤷
Should you supplement finger strength training with climbing or do you recommend to separate it? Because if we train finger strength 3 times per week, I don't know when it's time to climb.
I train finger strength every time I climb. It’s perfectly fine to do it multiple times a week if you don’t go overboard. As always, load management is key. If you want to train finger strength and climb on the same day but your finger training is so intense that you can’t climb well (or safely) afterwards, you’re going way too hard. Hope that helps! -Emile
@@christophedurand811 You may notice that your hands are pretty tired for climbing the first couple sessions, but unless you're going *really* overboard with it, you should adapt pretty fast. With practice, some max grip work becomes a really nice warm up for climbing.
@@danielbeall3308 Hey Daniel, it's nice to see your comment! I started following your protocol very seriously since december 10. I never trained before, I was only 'just climb'-ing and felt very little progress even though I was pretty focused on technique. So since dec. 10, I stopped climbing to focus on strength for many muscles that have been recommended by you guys. I did the first mesocycle of 4 weeks to figure out how to train, then I'm going to start the second mesocycle next tuesday. That's going to give me a benchmark for the future to know what I get from optimal training and how it makes me feel. Then I will start climbing again and compromise between strength and climbing. I'm very excited to see where it's going to lead me! Thanks a lot for the content you guys provide!!
Is 2.5 lbs a week an upper limit of weight to add? It seems like I can add 2.5 lbs almost every session based on effort levels, but don't want to overdo it.
That is relative to how close you actually are to your tolerance levels. Which, unfortunately, is one of the harder things to know. If your tolerance is 100lbs on a 20mm edge in a half crimp, for example, and you're doing 50lbs, then a 2.5lb increase may not be that significant and yes you may feel like you can increase every time. Compare that to if you're already doing 85lbs, then 2.5lbs is a good increment to go by.
what's the downside of having a lot stronger fingers over upper body strength? Last time I tested I could deadhang 150% bw 10s on 20mm (without specific finger training), my max 2 rep pull-ups where 125% bw at that time. I'm pretty confident I could deadhang more, but my shoulders crap out before my hands start to open.
not a downside of this, but do understand an isometric will allow more load than a concentric, and a 2rm will further reduce the comparison. Likely you could add another 5% total weight for a 1rm and another 10-15% to an isometric, which your numbers are in line with. Further gets complicated when we talk about the passive tension issue of the fingers and the ability to take more load without recruiting more muscle. I would focus on some shoulder strength is all during a training block and let the finger strength come naturally through more intense climbing since your fingers seem better able to adapt.
Some climbers whose fingers are substantially stronger than the rest of their upper upper body can develop shoulder issues or other pathologies due to the imbalance. We've seen climbers get shoulder injuries because they're trying extremely hard moves (which their fingers can handle) without enough strength in the shoulders to keep up. It's definitely not a guaranteed injury waiting to happen, so no need to freak out. Just something to be aware of -- like other aspects of climbing strength training, it's helpful to maintain a *relative* balance. You don't need to be able to deadlift your bodyweight to climb hard, but it would probably be helpful if you can do a pistol squat or two. You don't need to be able to do an iron cross on rings, but if your overhead press is 20lbs, that could be an issue. If you can hang 6mm edges but struggle to do more than a few bodyweight pullups, you might want to work on your pullup strength. And so on... -Emile
How would you rate the load on the shoulder? Clearly less than when hanging but not zero right? Asking as considering to switch to this whilst curing shoulder inflammation (not seeking medical advice here, just curious)
Certainly still some load on the shoulder, yes, but less than hanging overhead. The mechanics are a bit simpler, as are the muscles that are required to maintain stability.
Technically, it’s about the same load, since you use about the same weight (a bit less really). It is however a much less compromised shoulder position, and I find it’s well tolerated in people not suffering from fairly severe shoulder issues. Still, if you’re not feeling positive about it, make sure to take a couple sessions to ease in before you try to go hard.
Your shoulder is probably being pulled forward and rounding your upper back a little. I would try setting your scap a little more intentionally, setting your forearm against your body, and thinking about a "layback" kinda engagement. That's my best guess without being able to see what you're doing.
You could, the first / immediate issue I would see is just potentially body mechanics as (depending on the machine) it might be harder to get underneath it. So you would have to be a bit more careful on your mechanics to avoid any discomfort (shoulder/back/etc) - Dan might have more to add but that's just my immediate thought! - Jason
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(TIMESTAMPS BELOW) Hope you all enjoy the in-depth content! What do you think about this video? We welcome any (concise, constructive) feedback you'd like to share on specific likes, dislikes, or suggestions!
NOTES/CORRECTIONS:
--> Around 14:20, the notes say "anterior pelvic tilt". This is incorrect; it should say "posterior pelvic tilt". Rest assured I've fired both Jason and Dan as proof readers ;) - Emile
--> Because I know there will be some confusion about this: the term "no hangs" is sometimes used to refer to hangboarding that involves not lifting your feet off the ground. As far as I know this is an erroneous use of the term. "No hangs" refers to block pulls (or farmer crimps or whatever you want to call them), where you can train finger strength "with no hanging" (makes sense, right?).
--> Apologies in advance for some of the focusing issues; we had to improvise with this location and the cameras did not like the "busy" background.
00:00 Intro and Overview
01:04 A brief note about Dan and this video
--> PART 1: CONTEXT
01:49 Background Info: Why are "no hangs" so popular now?
02:44 Relevance: Why should I do this exercise?
07:21 Why this video is freeeeeee!!
--> PART 2: BEFORE YOU BEGIN
08:27 Equipment: What gear should I use?
09:53 Holds: Should I do pinches, pockets, monos, or crimps?
11:20 Edges: What size edge should I use?
11:34 Grip: Which type of grip should I use?
12:09 Bonus: How should I mount the weight?
--> PART 3: GETTING STARTED
13:25 Form: How do I perform no hangs properly?
14:57 Style: Should I do short reps or long holds?
--> PART 4: FIRST SESSION
16:46 Estimate: Should I do the same weight as I do on the hangboard?
18:24 Initial Testing: How do I figure out my working weight?
21:51 Subsequent Sessions: How do I structure future workouts?
--> PART 5: PROGRAMMING
24:27 Session Scheduling: When should I do this?
24:48 Frequency: How often should I do this?
25:16 Long-Term: How long should I do this?
25:56 Bonus: Should I combine this with other finger training?
--> PART 6: PROGRESSION
26:45 Basic Progression: How do I keep improving?
28:38 Advanced Progression: What if basic progression stops working?
31:55 Intuitive Progression: How do I manage real-world variability?
32:53 Outro: Special thanks to Mesa Rim North City!
You do realise that cameras generally have a manual focus function? Can be very useful where auto is getting spoofed.
It's absolutely wild to me how Dan can film these long uncut segments without messing up or pausing to think about what he's going to say next. As always, love the content! Very helpful!
But there are cuts…
@@CJski baffling the stupidity on this site. Scripts and cuts. Just like any filmed dialog
DANS BETA
lol this ain't birdman bro
I just love how the "best" way to do it is said to be "the one that the person prefers" (of course when reasonable). So many coaches overlook the mental component! The training plan that works the best is the one that you actually do! Terrific job as always :)
Appreciate the kind words!
Was really impressed with this video. Intelligently spoke to the subject for thirty minutes without reading from a script behind the camera and had the cleanest shirt I have ever seen 🔥
Haha it always impresses us too how Dan can eloquently speak at length about all these topics on command. Highly intelligent + many years of experience makes him a real 💎.
-Emile
Any time I see a nuanced video that repeats "It depends" I immediately feel better about sharing it. Enjoying the depth of information here and, as someone who has used no-hang as a primary strength training modality for myself and clients, I'll be continuing to share this as a great explanation of application.
My favorite part is the recommendation to "set" the grip with your other hand (even rep-to-rep), as I've seen a LOT of people think their non-working hand is off-limits or something.
Thanks for providing this educational material, these types of videos can take a LONG time to produce and do well!
Thank you for the kind words! It depends is one of my favorite phrases as well, unfortunately a lot of the world prefers strong definitives hah. Glad you've also had good success with this training mode!
2:46 The reason I got into no hangs was because I was in an area with no climbing gyms, and I could bring a no-hang board to the regular gym and load it up there easily.
I had great success with this. I'm 85kg. I can't just start fingerboarding like a 60kg climber can. Bodyweight also varies. I like this method because it's like normal gym training and you can make small controlled increments, which is hard to do with bodyweight fingerboarding
Agreed, it's definitely a great tool to be aware of and can be super useful! Glad you found the video to be beneficial!
I love thee in-depth videos. Keep it up team!
Thanks so much!
Amazing stuff! So many youtube coaches talk about this training method, but this one goes into so much dept whilst still being simple and clear with it. Super helpful and wel presented!
Thank you! We appreciate the feedback.
I really appreciate the simple-complicated advanced progression example! This is something I was always confused about with weight training, how to get progressive overload once you are at that max range. Excited to give that a try!
Agreed! I loved that Dan provided that insightful progression :)
- Jason
I literally just ordered this exact block yesterday! So excited to have a full lesson and explanation on how/the best way to use it!
This answered so many questions. And really enjoyed the example program at the end, good for variety.
This is a awesome tool when you have access to a gym (room), e.g., in your apartment community, office or just a gym nearby.
You can attach the tool to a “pulling machine” where the wire is attached to the machine at the bottom. There you can usually sets weights in steps of 1 pound.
Yup! Thanks for pointing that out!
We wanted to include that as an option as well, but the vid was getting long and we temporarily didn’t have access to a pulley machine…
Works surprisingly well with a lat pull down (cable pull up) machine as well!!
Wow! This is honestly the best video on finger strength training ever. Especially for people who want to get started on it. It's perfect how the first session is explained in detail and then there's options for basic progressions with not much thought needed but also long term outlooks of what this training tool could become. I feel like all questions are answered but I do have one: how does this content translate to hangboarding? Can I use all of this and just do it with 7-3 repeaters or something? Would also love a full video exactly like this one but for hangboarding. I know it's been done too often but I feel it would be THE new guide❤
More informative and educating video ever! Thanks a lot!
A question though: what about the rest time between the sets (both during the ramping stage and between the work sets)?
As a climber whose weight fluctuates due to other sport focus, i also find these very useful to manage progression rather than weighing myself immediately before each hang board session and adjusting %body weight added.
Good point! Weight can fluctuate wildly day to day which can certainly impact your hangs but that doesn't apply with these 🤙
Another advantage! If you live in a rental and can't mount a hang board for risk of losing your security deposit. This can be a nice alternative to at-home finger strength training ✌️
Super appreciate the notes in the sidebar btw, great work.
Amazing content! I did these for rehab but never considered them for training. Glad to hear I'm not the only one who struggles with half crimp!
25:00 - very surprised at the recommendation that this be done 3 times a week (for what is a max strength protocol). Would you typically reduce climbing volume when programming this?
Ya that's what I was thinking. Tendons take way longer to heal than muscles, so I'd think 1-2 a week with climbing would be the best, but I'd want to know hooper's opinion on this.
Max strength is often done 3x per week. It works very well and is the go to method for power lifting and other strength sport.
There is no meaningfully elevated risk here with reasonable volume control.
Climbing volume can be reduced slightly, especially the first couple weeks, but it isn’t often much of an issue.
It is not uncommon to see bouldering performance decline after grip training for the first few sessions, but people adapt rapidly, and it becomes a surprisingly effective “warmup”
@@peterjames7509 We touched on this briefly in our last video:
ua-cam.com/video/xy6TeervBKs/v-deo.html
@@danielbeall7725 Thank you, I appreciate that and all your and Hooper's free but top quality information and advice.
this is awsome for those who dont have a hangboard or for who is on the go
Absolutely!
Ah yes! I actually meant to mention that, but forgot.
Super super convenient as a method for travel when coupled with a force gauge.
Another travel hack (if you’re going to be in one area for a while) is that “sand bag tent weights” are super cheap, pack down to almost nothing, and you can easily fill them for use with exercise wherever you end up.
Hope it’s helpful!
I’ve been using this type of “no-hang” training for a couple year and have had some good results. I like it cuz my body weight fluctuates and it’s annoying to have to figure out percentages of max lifts with that as a factor. In addition I made all the equipment myself out of pipe and scrap wood so...cheap!
I still find it amazing that techniques like just deadlifting using a crimp edge is relatively new to the scene. Coming from a strength training background the first thing I wanted to do when I started climbing was to develop a program/ exercises to speed up the process. The advice of "just climb more" is not good advice if the person is legitimately looking to progress. Thanks for the video!
Yeah 😅 climbers have been quite slow to adopt/adapt well-established tools and techniques that in hindsight seem like no-brainers. Resistance training possibly being the most humorous of oversights.
-Emile
@@HoopersBeta well cheers to you for bringing them all up to speed lol 💪🔥
Thanks!
Thanks so much! :)
Well this seems to fit into hypertrophy weight training quite nicely... isolating it more to the hand itself, since everything else could already part of a workout routine outside of climbing (I personally do suspended ring stuff). I already have a loading pin (and plates) for hypertrophy forearm training, this would fit so easily into that section of the workout.
Plus it's not ideal to have a hangboard in an apartment for example.
Suuuuper useful. Dan does not disappoint!
Thanks! Doing our best!
Perfect video, clear, precise and it answered pretty much every questions i got during the video.
Nice! We are stoked to hear that!
I was hoping y'all were going to cover this. Thanks!
"I'm pretty good at grabbing little things" - Dan Beall....🤣
#streetcred
This is an amazing resource!
Thank you!
One of the best, if not the best vid I've seen pertaining to progression & playing with the different parameters such as sets, reps, load, & duration (+rests). Isn't progression non-linear? Then why do the vids keep getting better with no end in sight? 😂
xD thank you!!
Thank you, this video is truly great. I've been wondering about implementing no hangs as I recently purchased a tension block. But the practical tips about progressing are really clear and it feels like they will really help me, even outside of this exercise!
Awesome! Stoked that this will help you. Thanks for sharing the kind words.
Thanks for the above list of equipment to buy. Could you also share the link for the pinch block that you'd recommend? Thank you!
In terms of testing into your max weight, I'm confused by why failure should happen at the 4th rep if you are doing sets of 3 reps to work up to your max weight (content from 18:25 - 21:47). Should I start at 50% of my max weight and do sets of 4 reps?
So one advantage that you didn't mention is that it makes your lifts easily measurable.
10 reps at X kilos.
This way you can see how you are improving or to make sure that you are constantly overloading by adding small weight every so often.
Absolutely! But that's also true for pretty much any exercise that involves weight or rep progression, so it doesn't necessarily bear explanation.
-Emile
Thank youuuuuuu
Thank you for the support!
Thanks a lot ! Just in time I started looking into daily finger loading !
I typically advise my climbing patients to do their finger training after their (slightly shortened) climbing session, rather than before, under the assumption that training is more structured and controlled, and they can better modulate the load based on how they're feeling. Conversely, climbing is more dynamic and unpredictable, and if they've already pushed their fingers to the max while training, they may be more likely to suffer an injury while climbing. Any thoughts?
Ps. love your content, I frequently advise my clients to check out your videos! Keep up the good work.
I know you didn't ask me specifically, but it's generally accepted that strength training be done prior to the activity in question, or in isolation of said activity (separate day or at separated by several hours for more conditioned athletes).
Why would you want to "push their fingers to the max" when they're entering the finger training pre-fatigued, rather than immediately after a brief progressive warm-up?
@@RFrecka I should clarify that it's not my preference that my clients train and climb in the same session (they often don't have training tools at home), but when they ask whether it's better if they train before or after climbing, that has been my recommendation. I see far more injuries from climbing than I do from training, so to me it seems less risky doing it in that order. I appreciate your input.
Great video! I can see why you would perhaps train this over a hangboard but in the context of getting better at bouldering as a whole, is there benefit to this type of training over just climbing on steep boards like a spraywall or moonboard?
In my experience, this is a great tool to squeeze in a short session during rest days. Spraywall or moonboard sessions are great for multiple reasons but can be very taxing.
What I try and remind my clients of is climbing is training when done with intention. If we are training finger strength and you get on finger intensive board problems, there is not a reason to then add in finger strength lift work atop. If the skin is failing and the session is shorter than anticipated, feel free to tack on a few sets, or if this is a prework session then definitely the warm and work process for a lift session is much faster and targeted. As well, I do this before any given board session to autoregulate; if I am not able to lift 95% bodyweight as a half in my left and chisel in my right, I am not primed enough or may need to alter expectations, session plans, or simply head home. But this over a board? Take the board, but be intentional to work fingers.
@Jaaravs the key word here is “just”. It is common and effective to do dedicated finger training along with spray wall climbing. It’s not necessary for climbers earlier in their career, but it’s effective and manageable at all levels if volume is controlled reasonably.
I would certainly not do fingerboard or no hangs “instead” of board climbing.
These work great for me as a carpenter/builder who has an intrinsically stronger dominant hand. I simply start with my left hand and then mirror the weight to try and alleviate the imbalance. I do have a question however. At my local gym one of the staff has donated a Crimpwerks device (14mm edge) which I love. I wanted to start doing no hangs at home and found that this company no longer makes these products, so seeing videos of other people using portable hangboards for no hangs I ordered some Metolius wood rock rings. The 15mm edge is nice, square and feels comfortable, but with the 2 additional larger rungs the device is much longer than the Crimpwerks device. It is also 'extended' with a loop of accessory cord as opposed to the Crimpwerks device which connects directly to the loading pin via a carabiner. With the wood rock rings I can basically get to the end of the 'dead-lift' movement (legs almost straight) without even weighting the device and lift the weight barely an inch or so. With the Crimpwerks device I am weighted throughout a significant portion of the dead-lift movement and lift the weight 3 or 4 inches higher at least. Does this difference in height lifted make a difference?
definitely does change matters to have to lift with the arm compared to standing into the weight. For one, this still means the shoulders can be limiting factors, especially while fatigued, but makes recruiting finger strength for heavier lifts more difficult.
If you can, try to shorten the cord or any attachment pins such as carabiners and if necessary simply cut excess of the rock rings as long as this will still take cord.
@@zacharylaschober Thank you for the reply and for clarifying this. Might be time to put my DIY cap on!
@@tombuckett1574 hope that helps, also if you have access to a router it is pretty easy to turn an offcut of a stud into a perfect one hand training tool. stability is a big issue, the rock rings bring the cord straight down the middle of the edge which means that actually gives a negative edge when weighted, whereas the tension blocks have the cord brought too close to the axis. if you do make a thing, give yourself as deep an edge as possible to still have to flex at the dip joint, make sure the cord comes through the board parallel and close to the edge, and have the holes for the cord spaced wider than the hand.
Man, absolutely love this in depth content. Such a down to earth way of communicating your knowledge also. Wondering how a common weekly structure looks for you in regards of finger training and climbing (maybe intensive strength training aswell if you do so). Like how many sessions of these are you doing in total and how much rest in between.
Absolutely great video! My only question is how do you handle multiple grips? E.g. do you do the x sets for crimping, then x sets for 3 finger drag, then pinch etc?
Can’t speak for Dan, but I personally prefer that method rather than alternating between grips. I do my primary grip sets first (typically half crimp), then move on to my secondary grip after (typically drag or full crimp). That way I ensure maximum quality sets for my primary grip, while also avoiding the annoyance of alternating grips a bunch (having to swap out weights between sets, flipping the block around, etc.).
-Emile
Thanks, great in-depth explanation. It seems like No Hangs has come to refer to lifts with these devices in the USA, whereas in Europe I think No Hangs is used for feet down fingerboarding, it's a pun on Max Hangs? 🤷♂
Maybe? Not sure! Unfortunately there's no official lexicon we can reference. Calling any type of hanging exercise (including reduced weight / feet-on-the-ground hangs) "no hangs" doesn't make much sense to me. I do love a good pun though :) and glad you liked the video!
Question.. I what if one hand is way stronger than the other, such as a 15-20 lbs difference in max pull? How should training change to accommodate this difference?
You can either change the weight each time you switch hands (annoying), use two loading pins with different weight (ideal), or use your other hand to give the weaker hand a tiny bit of assistance (also perfect fine, just a little harder to track).
-Emile
That does sound very interesting! Another reason one might want this over hangboarding is that it sounds a lot less cumbersome. I'm no homeowner and my landlord doesn't want any holes drilled into the walls for a hangboard, so if I want one, I need to get a pull-up bar and mess around to get a hangboard attached to it as best I can.
Or I can pay for a loading pin ($20, says Dan), a cheap portable hangboard ($40 or so), some weights, and do no-hang training just like that. All small gear I can tuck away in a corner of my room, as opposed to either annoying my roommates with a massive pull-up bar in a doorframe, or having to take it on and off every time I train. I'll definitely be considering doing no-hangs!
Great video. I’d like to challenge the idea that rowing motion is no good. I’ve been working with some rowing movements with a weighted barbell in a ‘landmine’ configuration - Meadows row or bolstered with a bench. You can loop the bar end with the crimp block rope, or just slide a 2” pvc section over the bar end for wider pinch. Seems a bit better if your focus is climbing than just deadlift style.
I believe he says this because either your row or the fingers are going to be your limiting factors, so instead of them limiting each other, it would be more effective to train your rows with a higher weight and then your fingers with higher weight because its not sawing or moving, and you know specifically this is what your training. allows for more consistent results as well so you can accurately progressive overload.
i'v been doing no hangs for about 6 months now but just copied my hangboarding routine of repeaters 7-3 times 5reps rest 3 minutes and do 5 sets. Any downside to this?
Amazing as always. Thank you for the info 🙏🙏🙏
A+ video
What about how fingertips should lay on edges of tension block/hangboard (flat-fingered or tip-mashed)? I often find that I am hanging on the hangboard with my fingertips slightly mashed up rather than being completely flat on the edge
Such a fantastic video, thank you!
Very nice and informative video!
This comment might not be noticed and unread but ill shoot my shot anyways.
A question sprung to mind. I noticed that the way youve tied and used the sling makes the crimp block hang at an over 90° angle when loaded. It kind of leans away from him making the edge hes crimping more positive and easier to hold. You can clearly see what Im talking about @ 14:20 ish. Will that have any positive or negative effect? I would assume the ideal angle of the edge would be at 90°?
Not saying its right or wrong. Hes garanteed way more educated than me on the subject. Am i nitpicking here?
Thank you for this!! I am unable to make the most of two handed hangboarding due to unique overhead morphology in my forearms/hands so I’m looking into single hand training options. Will be taking Dan’s advice for a test drive!
Love this video! Thank you!
I have been doing an arm-lifting training program as part of a training program I made and it has been amazing for me! As someone who has been renting for years this has finally let me train at home, which is much easier to keep consistent than gym visits. The ability to train different grips at less-than-body-weight without pulleys is awesome. I have progressed my 20 mm hangs and 110 mm pinch by 5 kgs so far, can't wait to see if I can get some good impact with my leading.
I feel my finger strength has been a lot lower than core and shoulder strength forever, but I have been wondering: when do I know if my shoulder strength is lagging behind my finger strength (before risking injury that is)? Do I rectify by accompanying my arm-lifts with some weighted shrugs, pullups, and rotator cuff exercises? Thanks!
Are short reps less fatiguing than long holds when doing "no hangs"?
If yes, then I suppose that short reps are better as recovery should be quicker & safer when combined with climbing sessions. Is that correct?
Does that mean it is more efficient? Are there any other benefits in longer holds?
Thank you for amazing video :)
Why are you not supposed to row the weight? As seen around 14:45
Amazing info and great progression detail but, how would you deal with strength differences between hands? Should you work at the weakest hand load or keep training them independently?
You do them both at the same time, set to set, and then once the weaker one taps out, you continue on with the other hand.
Or if you're going to do a bunch of working sets, maybe just have the stronger hand do extra reps or extra time. I'd personally rather do that than changing the weight constantly.
Dan thanks for the awesome video! Can you help me understand why you wouldn't train grip strength the same way you would any other muscle group?
In most cases, focusing on rep ranges between 10-30 with a total weekly volume of 15-20 sets executing time under tension with 2 second eccentrics and building a periodization phase where you're starting with 3-4 reps in reserve week one, moving through several weeks increasing the load and then entering a deload phase for a week is an optimal way to train. This is well understood in exercise science for other muscle groups for maximizing hypertrophy.
I'm all in on the tension block training. I'd just like to ensure I'm programming it correctly.
Since this is a finger *strength* workout we're going to be following closer to traditional strength training protocols, not hypertrophy training. Our goal with this workout is to increase strength, not optimize for maximum hypertrophy. Hope that helps! :)
-Emile
About short or long reps : aren't they different stimulus ? Do the series of short reps, performed back to back, work more on concentric and hypertophy of the finger flexors, than long reps that are more an isometric effort ?
I've been doing these a lot since the Yves video. I also added a wrist wench into my routine because of that, and would be curious about your thoughts maybe in a future video on that device. My max pulls on 20mm at around 150lbs seemed to be limited by more my lat/shoulders rather than my fingers - I'm not sure if my height ratios works out to where I can 'deadlift' most of the weight with my legs. I think I will go down in weight and edge size, but was wondering if there'd be any benefit to adding platforms or something to be able to lift the pin off the ground with less lat engagement and use more of my legs. Thanks for the comprehensive video Dan !
definitely try different setups as being able to avoid lifting with the arm will help you consistently load the fingers maximally. I get myself directly overtop of the stack, wear shoes, and stand on some smaller plates to give an extra inch of height. Plus, you can almost always shorten the attachment point, tie a knot or use a smaller carabiner or a shorter pin or similar and then a stable platform if you can.
Platforms are a good call. Bumper plates work well, lots of gym have wood or metal platforms as well.
Getting a good pulling stance is important for getting the most out of these lifts, but for one reason or another isn’t always possible.
If you feel “pull limited”, moving to a smaller or more difficult grip is an easy fix. (a good way to tell, if you aren’t sure is to measure output on better are worse holds. If they’re similar, you’re probably not entirely hand limited)
Great video, thank you!
Is there benefit to using the 6mm edge vs. the 10mm? Enjoying the in depth information!
Thanks for creating this video. What about when it’s a board you stand on as opposed to a moveable weight?
Can work, but most people are terrible at gauging how hard they are trying, so a force gauge is likely necessary to make reliable progress with a board vs weights.
Since a a pulley injurie, I rehab my finger with the "farmer grip" but I also do this for the other finger (one by one) and doing this, I feel being more aware of individual finger weakness...(I don't have dumbbell weight more than 15kg..and ok I'm stingy but damn!! it expensive). So, do you think the transfert on climbing will be as goo as doing the exercice like you do? (i hope you could understand my gibberish ^^, I'm french and everybody knows how french people suck with foreign language :) ). And by the way, thank for your great work!!...and with the french accent: "sank iou for iour grèt work" ;)
I had a pulley injure and I rehab it with the Block from Tension that he is using but instead of “deadlifting” the weight i was “curling” it, to imitate the range of motion of when you crimp, with this method I improved very quickly and got out of the injury way quicker than others methods
@@ErusDaVinci thx, i continu my rehab and try this but my question is, if is doing finger by finger just for strengh, not for rehab, is relevant
Does anyone know how to set up the tension block as shown at 12:29?
Do you think there's a quantifiable way to get resistance from bands instead of plates? Also. What do you think about doing finger curls and also what do you think about a more advanced progression where you use teams of fingers or training them individually? Thank you also for putting this great content out there!
Resistance bands: not really I’m afraid. It’s technically possible of course, but it’s far more trouble than it’s worth. If you need to get around weights, and you would also like quantifiable, I think a force gauge is the way to go. I personally like tindeq, but there are more and less expensive options that will also work just fine.
Finger curls are great. We were going to cover them in this video initially, but things started getting a bit too long.
Training teams (pockets, monos, etc) isn’t necessarily “more advanced”, but it’s certainly something you can do.
Great to include if you’re planing to climb on pockets at some point, probably fine if you’re not.
Training pocket strength with the intention of carryover to other grips is not a typical training modality, so I can’t say with certainty. It will certainly build strength compared to not doing it. But I doubt (for example) that training 2 fingers at a time will transfer better to half crimp or open hand strength than training half crimp or open hand directly.
Can you make a video about the difference between fingerboard vs block pull?
We talk about this within the first 5ish minutes of the video? The chapter is called “Relevance”
-Emile
My main doubt here: in the suggested training should I use the block with the 35mm hole or 10mm? I am not sure if it is effective with 10mm? Or I simply adjust the max rep strength with each one as I grow stronger?
Wow is that mesa rim north city. Small world
you can also do hand crunches . I find it helps.
Great vid and just watched some of it again as think I've tweaked my shoulder by overdoing it on these. 🤔 Possibly by 'hanging' for too long with a heavy weight. Was aiming for 5s. Your time under tension time looked quite short though - like a mear second or two? Is the general consensus now that for max strength training, hang duration is not important? It's just about lifting the weight and putting it down again (same would apply to fingeboarding) so a 1 to 3 second hang is fine? I'm thinking the answer is 'yes' 😄 and once you can do a certain number of reps like that, one could then try to increase the time under tension for that weight to increase capacity for those times on a route or boulder where I'm on holds for longer than 3s! ?? 😵💫 Cheers! 😀
I don't understand why the short "up-and-down"-reps would be just as effective at increasing strength as longer holds. Don't isometric exercises generally need a longer time under tension to be effective than eccentric/concentric movements?
I have one question. The amount of sets and repetitions are just for one hand? Thanks.
What do you think about not using weight. Instead slinging the edge under the feet and pulling to a specific RPE?
It works, but not as well. Our ability to intentionally and accurately regulate force output without a weight or something to lift (and thus provide feedback) is extremely poor.
There are some decent and fairly cheap force gauges that help alleviate this problem if you want to experiment with that method.
What is the name of the portable tension block at 2:26 and where could I purchase. Thank you
Is that The Block from Rock and Snow? I think I found it..
It’s made by Tension: tensionclimbing.com/products/the-block-2
Or if you want to buy a similar block that also helps support the channel, check out Frictitious: bit.ly/3yM0Jv1
Use code “hoopersbeta” for a discount 💪
What do you recommend should be the load of a working max set? Yves told in the lattice video that his training load is at 80% of his maximum lifting power. (For example, he is able to lift 100kg, so he normally trains with 80kg) What do you say about that? I typically go almost always all out in my sets which is probably not the best idea?!
We discuss this in detail in the video; see the “first session: initial testing” section where Dan walks us through how to find our 3 rep max.
-Emile
Hooper! I love all your videos. My one critique is to have dan actually do the workout, So many climbers show HYPOTHETICAL hangboarding workouts, but don't actually DO the workout. I'd love a boring 30 min, 1 hour video of someone actually doing this workout, so I could "follow along". Just a suggestion,
Do you have a link to that large pinch block you were showing? Ty
Good inspiration.
What if your left side is weaker than your right, and you can do 2-4 more reps on your right? Should you limit the amount of reps you do on your right side, or just take both to form failure?
Excellent!
I've been climbing for many years and never have any issues with pain/tinglinless in my arms after a session. However, every time I try and incorporate light hangboarding into my practice with proper technique, I often find my arms the next day to be tweaky/tingilgy. Why can my body handle an all out bouldering/lead session, but can't seem to adapt to a simple finger strength regiment of repeaters?
Thank you for this great in-depth video!
If I do holds instead of reps, how long should I hold per warm-up and work set?
Good question! Inevitably, the weight you use for the warm up will be lighter than the working sets, so you can do a slightly longer hold in the warm ups (~20 seconds). But for your working set, you can aim for ~7-10 seconds. You should stop though if you feel your hand opening up (and if it's before that time frame, you may need to decrease the weight). You don't want/need to hit that point of failure (hand opening up) especially with the working sets.
@@HoopersBeta Thank you ^^
Obviously it’s likely less than ideal, but how well could someone use this at home without a weight setup? eg. by using the cord around your foot and just pushing away from your hand while you lift/pull?
I’d use a force gauge if you can. Some decent ones are available for ~$40-50
Very very hard to do this well without some sort of force feedback.
Not impossible though, and better than nothing in a pinch.
Great video. Is it useful to take collagen 30min before the workout to strengthen the tendons better ?
Probably not - just make sure you get enough total protein throughout the day. We have a full length video about collagen supplements
Which one is better guys? This one, Hang on 20mm edge with pulley system to reduce weight or recruitment pulls? For finger strength. My fingers suck and I need to do something😢
Pick the one that you are most likely to do consistently and safely (whether due to enjoyment, convenience, intuitiveness of progression, etc). As long as you get the basics of progression and recovery down, there are lots of methods that will work about equally well. Don’t worry about the method as much as how you execute it.
-Emile
Great video guys! I have followd this routine for six months now and hit a hard plateau that I can't seem to overcome (my one rep-max is not going anywhere). I have tried switching in between different grip variations (4 finger half-crimp, three finger front/back) in order to get some more adaptation but nothing seems to help. What protocol can you recommend to overcome that plateau?
Hard to say for your specific circumstances (no idea of your background or the rest of your training), but I'd experiment more with sets and reps. Each session, or at least each week, think about what you might be able to do more of. Sometimes its an extra rep or an extra set, sometimes its a little more weight. Playing with edge sizes while still using the same grip (half crimp for example) can be helpful as well.
There are much more elaborate things you can do as well, but probably not necessary yet, and more appropriate for a coaching call than a youtube comment. Hope that helps, and good luck!!
What do you consider the proper terminology for using a hangboard and not lifting your feet?
I don’t think there’s an “official” term. “Low intensity hangs” or “sub-max hangs” would be my suggestions. You’re still hanging, just with less wait (the same as if you took your feet off the ground but used a pulley to remove some body weight), so calling it as such makes sense to me. :)
-Emile
@@HoopersBeta I do them all the time and I learned of them a few years ago as "no hangs". Until there's another exact official term, I'm still going to call them "no hangs" because to me, they're just putting pressure on your toes and fingers without hanging, even though with a hangboard it's what the name would suggest. Coming from an armlifting background, using weights and loading pins is just different types of deadlifts. V-bar or vertical bar deadlifts to be exact. I'm happy to use whatever official terminology there is for the act of using a hangboard with your feet on climbing holds like I do. I just don't want to have to explain what I do every single time with so many words. People usually interpret "no hangs" to mean what I'm trying to infer.
The term seems to be used variably depending on whom you ask. There's no official climbing dictionary, so it's essentially up to personal preference. You can call them what you like! Personally, I don't think hanging exercises should be called "no hangs", but 🤷
Should you supplement finger strength training with climbing or do you recommend to separate it? Because if we train finger strength 3 times per week, I don't know when it's time to climb.
I train finger strength every time I climb. It’s perfectly fine to do it multiple times a week if you don’t go overboard. As always, load management is key. If you want to train finger strength and climb on the same day but your finger training is so intense that you can’t climb well (or safely) afterwards, you’re going way too hard. Hope that helps!
-Emile
@@HoopersBeta Hey Emile, thank you very much for your answer!
@@christophedurand811 You may notice that your hands are pretty tired for climbing the first couple sessions, but unless you're going *really* overboard with it, you should adapt pretty fast. With practice, some max grip work becomes a really nice warm up for climbing.
@@danielbeall3308 Hey Daniel, it's nice to see your comment! I started following your protocol very seriously since december 10. I never trained before, I was only 'just climb'-ing and felt very little progress even though I was pretty focused on technique. So since dec. 10, I stopped climbing to focus on strength for many muscles that have been recommended by you guys. I did the first mesocycle of 4 weeks to figure out how to train, then I'm going to start the second mesocycle next tuesday. That's going to give me a benchmark for the future to know what I get from optimal training and how it makes me feel. Then I will start climbing again and compromise between strength and climbing. I'm very excited to see where it's going to lead me! Thanks a lot for the content you guys provide!!
Loading pins are a small investments, however weight plates are damn expensive :(
Is 2.5 lbs a week an upper limit of weight to add? It seems like I can add 2.5 lbs almost every session based on effort levels, but don't want to overdo it.
That is relative to how close you actually are to your tolerance levels. Which, unfortunately, is one of the harder things to know. If your tolerance is 100lbs on a 20mm edge in a half crimp, for example, and you're doing 50lbs, then a 2.5lb increase may not be that significant and yes you may feel like you can increase every time. Compare that to if you're already doing 85lbs, then 2.5lbs is a good increment to go by.
what's the downside of having a lot stronger fingers over upper body strength? Last time I tested I could deadhang 150% bw 10s on 20mm (without specific finger training), my max 2 rep pull-ups where 125% bw at that time. I'm pretty confident I could deadhang more, but my shoulders crap out before my hands start to open.
not a downside of this, but do understand an isometric will allow more load than a concentric, and a 2rm will further reduce the comparison. Likely you could add another 5% total weight for a 1rm and another 10-15% to an isometric, which your numbers are in line with. Further gets complicated when we talk about the passive tension issue of the fingers and the ability to take more load without recruiting more muscle.
I would focus on some shoulder strength is all during a training block and let the finger strength come naturally through more intense climbing since your fingers seem better able to adapt.
@@zacharylaschober thanks for the explanation. Some thing i didnt take into concideration.
Some climbers whose fingers are substantially stronger than the rest of their upper upper body can develop shoulder issues or other pathologies due to the imbalance. We've seen climbers get shoulder injuries because they're trying extremely hard moves (which their fingers can handle) without enough strength in the shoulders to keep up. It's definitely not a guaranteed injury waiting to happen, so no need to freak out. Just something to be aware of -- like other aspects of climbing strength training, it's helpful to maintain a *relative* balance. You don't need to be able to deadlift your bodyweight to climb hard, but it would probably be helpful if you can do a pistol squat or two. You don't need to be able to do an iron cross on rings, but if your overhead press is 20lbs, that could be an issue. If you can hang 6mm edges but struggle to do more than a few bodyweight pullups, you might want to work on your pullup strength. And so on...
-Emile
How would you rate the load on the shoulder? Clearly less than when hanging but not zero right? Asking as considering to switch to this whilst curing shoulder inflammation (not seeking medical advice here, just curious)
Certainly still some load on the shoulder, yes, but less than hanging overhead. The mechanics are a bit simpler, as are the muscles that are required to maintain stability.
Technically, it’s about the same load, since you use about the same weight (a bit less really). It is however a much less compromised shoulder position, and I find it’s well tolerated in people not suffering from fairly severe shoulder issues.
Still, if you’re not feeling positive about it, make sure to take a couple sessions to ease in before you try to go hard.
I do blocks for grip stregnth and crimp for crimps.
I feel my spine in the upper back with 125 lbs. Do i do something wrong? I am just move up from my knees with a straight upper body.
Your shoulder is probably being pulled forward and rounding your upper back a little. I would try setting your scap a little more intentionally, setting your forearm against your body, and thinking about a "layback" kinda engagement.
That's my best guess without being able to see what you're doing.
@@danielbeall3308 I am actually back in Training right now. I will try that. Thank you!!
Too much compression on the spine... Hangboard decompresses the spine, so with any problems like herniated discs i would default to deadhangs.
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Could I use a cable machine instead of the loading pin?
You could, the first / immediate issue I would see is just potentially body mechanics as (depending on the machine) it might be harder to get underneath it. So you would have to be a bit more careful on your mechanics to avoid any discomfort (shoulder/back/etc) - Dan might have more to add but that's just my immediate thought!
- Jason
soon as I started doing hand training I bumped up grades pretty fast