Yeah well I do have a 150 mm BMX cruiser bar I got for 60 bucks. And it’s the shit. The only difference is this stem is a slightly reverse reach. And 5-6 times more expensive.
What you basically need is a dropper post for your bars. Raise it for the downhill, put it back down for the climbs and flats. It can all fit nicely in the fork steerer. Problem solved.
I concepted a dropper bar that changes sweep, rise, stem length and width all at once. Here is a link to a GIF that shows it moving. drive.google.com/file/d/1C95lAawAmCGnhZeHbVgwOBi8-zazQY6O/view?usp=drive_link
Honestly, after seeing the Berm Peak video I got a 60mm rise Spank Spoon handlebar and I quite like it. Obviously, it's quite different that this BMB one, but I've grown quite fond of the rise on it!
Same. After being away from mtb for well over a decade, things have changed alot. But, I'm very happy that more upright riding position parts are available nowadays, compared to 10-12 years ago there wasn't as much. I too went with 60mm bars and love every aspect of it.
I've been out of the game for well over a decade. I will say, i have never liked the traditional riding position of mtb. Too far forward, too much weight over the front,very unstable, and uncomfortable. I have always used riser bars, but now i use 60mm + rise. I love every aspect of the more upright position. It feels very more motocross bike like. Less sore back, hands , and wrists. Much more stable during jumps and drops. And hasnt affected my climbing one bit. Parts like this stem really push the direction of technology of the sport. I love it.
Awesome honest video emphasising weight distribution and what impacts that has. FWIW I swapped out my flat bar for a 35mm rise and loved it. Then swapped for a 60mm rise Spoon bar and found it GAME CHANGING. Literally everything was better without compromise. Then swapped for the 80mm Diety highside bar and love it even more. Thats with 15mm stem spacers and a 5deg 50mm stem, and I like my bar rotated a bit further forward than most. So my reach is not massively affected, just a lot of stack height. Size XL frame. All that said, I'm 6'4" with long legs. The bike style and size suits me, but my thinking is that 1) Stack heights are not frame adjusted appropriately between sizes (my XL is only 15mm higher than the size M, despite being made for a person height 6-9" different.) and 2) especially for long legs, which raises your hips and increases your "fold" angle (angle of femur to lower back) the higher rise supports your effective weight distribution tremendously. I can get far more weight on the front wheel because that balance point is now in an easier range for my body to control. TALL PEOPLE CONSIDER!
Exactly the same here. I am 6’5”, and I am a bike fitter. The 80mm rise bars with high rise stem puts my grips just a hair above my saddle. When I fit a short rider, they need a slimmed stemmed stem and flat bar to get the same posture. Each bike and each body is different.
I’m 5’8” tall and I designed the stem to work for me. I run it with about 20mm of spacers under it and 25mm rise bars that way a shorter rider can run it lower. I have numerous customers well over 6’0”, tallest I think being 6’9”, who are loving the height for that exact reason. Bikes do not scale proportionally with different sizes. This is most obvious on the chainstay length and the stack height. If the reach is a smaller number than the stack, then if the reach grows by 20mm between sizes, the stack should be growing by even more per size to be proportional. Same thing with chainstays, albeit growing by a slightly smaller number. I even have one customer who is 6’4” running his RR stem with 65mm rise bars! I do have shorter riders using the stem very happily too though, the shortest that I’m aware of being 5’5”. He’s bought 3 RR stems in total now because he loves it so much he wanted all his bikes to have one. I’d say 5’5”-5’4” is probably the cutoff for where it can work in its current height. That’s how tall Seth from Berm Peak is, and he really liked the descending with the RR stem, but struggled a bit on really technical climbs with ledges. With bike geo as it is, I feel taller riders need a taller front end for better body position, but until they get proportional chainstays too, they will still be proportionally lower than shorter riders. Shorter riders benefit from a proportionally taller front end so that they can still have enough leverage for lifting the front end and maneuvering the proportionally really long rear end.
6'3 here, I agree i have 75mm rise bars xl bike luvv it. They make so many frame sizes but it just feels like its not the bike for me the riser bars helpt alot i remember the first ride it was a game changer for my bike. Looking at mtb video's im always a little jealous of the fact there bars are higher then the saddle (for smaller people)
@@cben86- rules of thumb are usually worth the paper they’re written on. Look at motocross bikes. They’ve had like 60 years and they still have their bars at stomach height. If riding a bicycle instead of a motorcycle necessitates being vastly less comfortable, with less visibility, your diaphragm crunched up, and having your center of gravity closer to an endo all the time, it’s not clear to me why. I’m 6’1”, I ride a large Spot Rocker singlespeed, with a 10mm rise stem and a 150mm rise BMX cruiser bar. It looks like a grown up BMX bike, which is what it is - a cross country BMX bike for an adult.
I think it actually would feel great on it. I remember yoanns crazy stretched out body position on that bike. I can see it being more natural with this stem. And since you already have so much front center on the donut, you should still have great traction.
As someone who also owns a spire, with a similar cockpit setup as Henry, the bike is so well balanced and so good at basically everything (climbing and descending) that i can't imagine changing anything, as it would probably ruin the ballence of the bike and make it worse in some aspect
Got my spire spring of last year and everything about the geometry is perfect for me. Just swapped my Bomber Z1 for a 38 180mm so now the front is more slack but feels even more stable in fast chunk now 👌
the very long chainstays weigh the front automatically! the bike will help you improve riding style as it will make you ride more through the feet and less through the arms :)@@almabatekert_villanykorte3387
I've been experimenting with high stack recently and really enjoying it. I built up a Stooge Mk6 with an 85mm rise bar on a top-load BMX stem which also has some rise. Considering it's a rigid bike, and all the limitations which should come with that, the confidence I have dropping into steep stuff with that high front end (and fairly moderate reach) is crazy. It's been very eye-opening on how geometry really is the most important thing, and arguably can trump suspension travel.
One thing I dislike about this sort of one-day test is the over confidence in your ability to judge accurately. You do make a good argument about the narrowing of the balance point and may be completely correct in your assertions. I have tried 8 different crank lengths over the last 5 or 6 years from 175mm to 130mm. It takes about 15 or 20 hours to learn how to pedal a new crank in a basically competent manner, and my first "short" crank (a 153mm) it took 50 or 60 hours to learn most of the new techniques and rpm ranges I could use. Then i had to develop new muscles to use the new techniques. A one-day test would have been absurdly invalid. So, I dismiss this video as not worthy of consideration. Like I said, you may be right, but put more effort into it.
Back in maybe 2007 I fitted Chromag flat bars (on a direct mount stem) on my downhill bike and it made me significantly more precise and a little bit faster. I can’t imagine this setup working (for me)
Expensive experiments (solutions looking for problems) are all the rage in the bike industry, when what they really need to do is figure out how to make decent bikes for under $7k again.
I’d be curious to try sizing up the bike and reversing a very short stem. I wonder how much the difference is just that the bar is behind the steer tube, and eliminating the factor of it being so high
Amen to that. Not only are you stuck with a bar height that is too short for most, every takeoff on the used market (something those looking to upgrade on a budget rely on) is also too short. If I am paying for a component on a new bike, I want all of it!
Meh, overly long steerer tubes look awkward, and if you want to run your stem lower than sky high, you'll have an excessive amount of steerer tube sticking up at you unless you cut it and reposition or install a new star nut. Just get a riser stem and/or bars if you really need more height.
Increase the reach and lower slack of frame without any regards to fit and playfulness.. And then sell a stem to increase stack and reduce reach for 400$. Yes that makes sense 😅💯
I think that to get the most benefit from this type of stem you would have to size up the frame. The longer reach would offset lack of weight on the front end, I assume.
A longer front center would reduce the weight on the front even more. Longer rear center would help. That said, a longer front reach might allow to to get in a posture to actively apply pressure at certain times
@@tjb8841 yes. that's what I meant because to me it looked like the bars were drastically close to the rider on that bike. When I am on a bike and the short reach gives me that effect, I tend to scoot back to compensate, reducing weight on the front. Could be my bad technique though....
You are spot on with needing to go up a frame size. I’ve ridden the RR on my bike which is a size larger than recommended. Totally transformed the bike. I run 80mm rise bars and a short stem to get a less aggressive version of the RR stem setup
This video highlighted (for me) how the climbing position will be. Which, I'll be honest, made me cringe a bit 😆 To anyone looking for a different perspective. Brian Cahal also made videos for this stem.
I’ve been riding on the Raised Reverse Stem for a year now. To maximize the benefits, you have to change body position, and adapt. My bike rips with it.
Thank you! I fully agree. Some people don’t like to change and adapt to new ideas. This isn’t for them. Riders who are open to make the necessary adjustments, which aren’t that hard to do, can take full advantage of the many benefits that the RR stem allows. It greatly rewards the right technique and bike setup for riding the RR stem, but I think it may also further punish the “wrong” technique and setup as we have seen in this review. Riders who already ride with that kind of technique, as many already do, can feel the benefits right away. If you try to use a technique that plays directly off of the dynamics of a low and forward offset stem, and try to use it unchanged on a Raised and Reversed offset stem, it will basically do the opposite of what you want and expect it to do.
630 mm Stack is not really high and 35mm rise too me is also just middle of the road. I have been riding 60mm riser bars since years and my old banshee prime already has a 637mm stack... So high cockpits feel pretty good if you have a balanced bike. Just too short reach can make you feel cramped. So I think it is always a compromise between comfortable fit and available grip.
As someone with short upper body and arm combined with long legs I missed bike fit considerations in all of this. That said I do need a higher bar for the bike to fit me better.
Just can't see it working with current geometry, but in the future generations of frames could be designed for it. I used to laugh at Gary Fisher bikes with 29 wheels back in the 1990s.
Lol, yeah that was a sketchy rats nest! 😅 It did allow me to test a lot of different offsets and heights with the steerer tube extender though before settling into a strong fixed position CNC machined prototype. I spent over 3 years testing anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem, and offsets from 70mm forward to -70mm Reversed and pretty much everything in between on various bikes and geos to see what worked best always benchmarking against traditional 50mm - 35mm stems. It’s been a fun journey, and I’m very happy with the performance of the current version and so are my customers. Some of them even loved the RR stem so much, they bought 2 or 3 to fit the rest of their bikes. 😊
I'm introducing a concept I call Hand Lead and Frame Lead. Mechanical Frame Lead is the exact same as the mechanical trail measurement people are familiar with, just with a name I feel is a bit more intuitive. Since the tire is the only thing actually in contact with the ground, this is where you are actually turning from, and should be the conceptual origin point to look from. It is from that point at the contact patch of the tire that the frame is leading the front wheel. You would find out how much Mechanical Frame Lead you have by drawing a straight line down through the steering axis till it intersects the ground, and then drawing a line perpendicular to the steering axis that intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your frame has to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, the frame will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as the frame swings side to side on that lever, it will also drop down to each side. This is known as wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Frame Lead along with the more weight you have above that lever, the more wheel flop you get. The Hand Lead is just like the Frame Lead but looking at the relationship of your hands to the contact patch of the tire. You would find out how much Mechanical Hand Lead you have by drawing a straight line to the ground parallel to the steering axis such that it intersects the centerline between your grips. You would then draw a line perpendicular to that line such that it intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your hands have to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, your hands will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as your hands swing side to side on that lever, they will also drop down to each side. This contributes to wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Hand Lead along with the more weight you put through your hands, the more wheel flop you get. With a Hand Lead that is longer than your Frame Lead, as is traditional, you further enhance the wheel flop of your frame alone. Along with that, your hands are even further away from the contact patch of the tire which can give a less direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left even more than your frame, and drop down into the turn further than your frame. Any mid lean steering and counter steering moves your hands quite a bit up and down which can make keeping your body lean stable harder without aggressively keeping on top of that movement. With a Hand Lead that is shorter than your Frame Lead, as is with the RR stem, you decrease how much wheel flop you get at the hands. Along with that, your hands are much closer to the contact patch of the tire which can give a more direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left less than your frame, and drop down into the turn less so that you can lean the frame in more. Any mid lean steering and counter steering doesn't disrupt your hands position in space much away from the contact patch of the tire which can make keeping your body's lean stable easier without aggressively needing to keep on top of it. This is all simplified a little because as you turn the front wheel, the contact patch of the tire actually moves towards to the steering axis. This is why when you lean the bike over standing next to it without holding the bars, the wheel turns in up until a certain point. At this point is an inflection point where the steering axis is actually in line with the contact patch of the tire. Depending on how much the bike is leaned will change where that inflection point is. At this inflection point, the frame will no longer drop down as you turn the wheel more, it will actually rise up a bit. At this point, having your hands in front of the steering axis will mean that your hands will still keep dropping down in as the wheel turns more. If you turn the wheel too far past this inflection point, the contact patch of the tire will become so far in front of the steering axis instead of behind it that the wheel will be forced to continue turning in and suddenly jackknife in. With your hands in front of the steering axis and subsequently in front of the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, weighting your hands will make the front try to continue turning in feeding into how it is already being forced to turn in and ultimately making the front jackknife. With your hands behind the steering axis and subsequently behind the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, your hands will be lifting up as you turn the wheel further beyond this inflection point instead of dropping in. This can give something for the rider to push against to keep the front end from jackknifing, and to keep turning the front wheel tighter with control.
I find it very interesting (not judging-- plain old interesting) that out of all the videos I've watched regarding the BMB stem, this is the only one where the reviewer really did NOT like it. Here's my take on why: 1a. He is by far the most accomplished rider (out of the reviews I've seen on YT) and it makes me wonder if the RR stem is more suited towards riders not of elite caliber, but instead, more suited towards well above average riders (Braunson, the creator puts down some serious hot laps at Southridge-- proving grounds for the likes of Aaron Gwin, Dante Silva, Ryan Pinkerton, et al). In other words, is the stem accomplishing something an elite rider doesn't need? 1b. He's well known for being completely, one bazillion percent, dialed into his Spire as-is; so would anything different make him less happy? 2. As another poster opined below, was enough time spent dialing-in and adjusting to the stem to get used to it? 2a. For instance, how do balance and body position changes affect the need to redo suspension settings/tire PSI/etc.? 2b. Every body and body proportions are different, not to mention each bike's geo, so how much fine tuning was done between spacer height, bar roll, etc.? 3. It makes sense that the majority of complaints about the stem center around climbing and slow techy sections when one considers the SoCal trails that this stem was presumably designed around. I don't know the creator so I could be guessing, but shuttling is a very common thing around these parts and bombing gnarly loose steep rocky trails is the norm. So not sure how much PNW or back east-type climbing was done when designing the stem. 4. The RR stem is not unlike how motorcross bikes are designed, for whatever that's worth. Either way, kudos to Braunson for making the stem and even more kudos to the likes of Pinkbike and others for shedding light on something clearly pushing conventional mtb thinking and design; especially when it was designed by someone who loves MTB and isn't backed by a multi-million dollar bike conglomerate.
Are the grips now behind the steering axis? That would make it stabilise by pulling on the bars in stead of leaning on it. That would require a huge adjustment in riding technique
They are actually. The RR (Raised Reversed) stem features a -15mm offset which combined with the backsweep of most bars will put your hands about 40mm behind the steering axis. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain. It does require a different riding technique than Henry has, but not that much different than what many mtb coaches actually recommend and many other riders already do where you keep all of your weight loaded through the bottom bracket and your feet with light hands, and you lean the bike over substantially more than your body to get it to turn smoothly with good side knob engagement. Many of the issues expressed in this review I believe are from trying to ride the RR stem the same way he rode his traditional stem like weighting the inside hand in turns and trying to get up on top of the bar instead of accepting that it is tall and riding low behind it with all of his weight through his feet all the while arguably using poor technique that doesn’t pair well with the RR stem. Customers I have usually are able to adapt to the RR stem pretty quickly with numerous riders getting PRs on their first rides with the RR stem on trails they’ve been riding for years. The steering does still stabilize straight when you push on it though because your hands are still in front of the contact patch of the tire along the steering geometry. They just do it to a smaller extent. This is due to a phenomenon I call “Hand Lead” which is kind of like the trail measurement but for your hands to the contact patch of the tire.
I sure wish you would really test the Polè Vikkela 190/190, you guys went from the Ebike Voima, jumped over the Vikkela (analog one that most people own) and then went to the DH designed Onni. that GEO is STELLAR.
You should do a video with the rr stem and a +1 hta angleset to test your hypothesis from the original video. You never made this bike steeper, although obviously the rr stem is supposed to mitigate some of the effects of a slack hta
New forks come with really long steerers. Just don't trim your steerer next time you upgrade your fork. Use a really big stack of spacers under a short stem instead.
This will work but you need a bike with a longer rear end/chainstay. It’ll be great with a bike that you can adjust head angle and the chainstay length.
For a smaller driver this might not make a difference, but for tall guys this could be great. The Stack won't change much with the size of the bike, so that taller driver drive the bike in a very different way.
I really like this idea, but could not justify the $ as i also would have to redo all lines. Soo I bought a Deity bar with a 80mm rise, major difference!!!!
Often times you can run your rear brake hose, shifter cable, and dropper cable behind the RR stem for a shorter path if it can’t reach going around the front side. The front brake is either long enough or not long enough though, and there isn’t any workaround for that. Often times the front brake hose is still long enough as it was on the bike before the RR stem, but sometimes you will need to make that one longer. There is a way to test if your front brake is long enough before actually installing the stem if you are interested.
A highrise bar and highrise stem are two completely different things. Highrise bars can be rolled forward to increase the cockpit length, put more weight on the front tire, and improve climbing position. That stem doesn't allow you to do that. Highrise bars are a much better option.
I tried this with a 15mm stem reversed with high bars, also tried 0mm and -10mm and didn’t find it helped anything. 15mm stems when combined with the pullback of most bars puts your hands in line with the steerer, effectively 0mm reach and that seems optimum to me. The bar height can affect reach and be down to personal preference, along with the frame reach, but I can’t see how the negative reach from the steerer would improve anything, just as being further from 0mm forwards is seen as bad, so is further from 0mm backwards.
The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. At the extremes of turning angles, the Reversed offset helps reduce the likelihood of having the front jackknife such that you can keep turning tighter. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain. I have tested from -70mm Reversed offset to 70mm forward offset and many different offsets in between at many different heights from below traditional to about 80mm taller than the production RR stem for over 3 years. -15mm was what I found gave the best steering characteristics which combined with the backsweep of most bars is about 40mm behind the steering axis at the grips. There are some adjustments to technique that some need to make to get the most out of that though. I commend you for having done your own testing to find what works best for you. 🙂
@@bemorebikes Well you say "arcs out", but what that actually means is that on a left hand turn where your hands normally move 'in' - it's actually left, and on a reversed stem your hands move 'out', which is actually right, which is counter-intuitive. When I tried it, I didn't find the bike felt less likely to jackknife, and I'm not sure why you say that's the case either. On a normal stem if the bike jackknifes the bars would come towards you, so you'd counter by pushing, and on your stem it would pull away from you, and you would have to pull them - I don't see why one of those is better than the other? I don't agree with your hand-to-axle position mimicking a 59° head angle though as that isn't a relevant metric - it's not the hand-to-axle position that gives you confidence on a slack bike, it's the angle combined with the wheel trail that does it, otherwise you could have a 90° HA bike with a -200mm stem and recreate the axle-to-hand position, but that wouldn't give you the same confidence. Finally, if you say that the negative reach improves handling by weighting your hands more on the 'outside', why don't you think a -30mm stem is even better then? I simply think having your hands at 0mm is optimal and the most intuitive. You should have a chat with Rulezman!
@@coreygunWhile it is true that if you are looking relative to the frame, your hands will be moving to the left when you turn left with a forward offset, and to the right when you turn left with a Reversed offset, that isn’t the relevant reference frame here. When you are turning and leaning the bike, since you are the heaviest mass in the rider and bike system, your COG needs to be leaned over a given amount for a given turn. At that lean of your body, and dropping in of your hands turning the bar, the bike will be leaned over a certain amount. You can drop your hands in turning the bar further to lean the bike more, but there is a limit to how far your hands can move down away from your body. If your hands are in front of the steering axis, your frame will not be able to lean in as much as your hands are dropped in turning the bar. The longer the forward offset stem, the more upright the bike will be for a given amount of dropping the hands in turning the bar. If your hands are behind the steering axis, your frame will be leaned in further than your hands are dropped in turning the bar. As such, it’s not so much that when you turn left your hands move right and out, it’s more so that when you turn left the frame moves left and in. You are the origin of the movement and reference plane, not the frame of the bike. To understand why the front is less prone to jackknifing with the RR stem relative to a 50mm stem for example, I must first explain the concepts that I’m introducing called “Frame Lead” and “Hand Lead”. Mechanical Frame Lead is the exact same as the mechanical trail measurement people are familiar with, just with a name I feel is a bit more intuitive. Since the tire is the only thing actually in contact with the ground, this is where you are actually turning from, and should be the conceptual origin point to look from. It is from that point at the contact patch of the tire that the frame is leading the front wheel. You would find out how much Mechanical Frame Lead you have by drawing a straight line down through the steering axis till it intersects the ground, and then drawing a line perpendicular to the steering axis that intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your frame has to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, the frame will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as the frame swings side to side on that lever, it will also drop down to each side. This is known as wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Frame Lead along with the more weight you have above that lever, the more wheel flop you get. The Hand Lead is just like the Frame Lead but looking at the relationship of your hands to the contact patch of the tire. You would find out how much Mechanical Hand Lead you have by drawing a straight line to the ground parallel to the steering axis such that it intersects the centerline between your grips. You would then draw a line perpendicular to that line such that it intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your hands have to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, your hands will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as your hands swing side to side on that lever, they will also drop down to each side. This contributes to wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Hand Lead along with the more weight you put through your hands, the more wheel flop you get. With a Hand Lead that is longer than your Frame Lead, as is traditional, you further enhance the wheel flop of your frame alone. Along with that, your hands are even further away from the contact patch of the tire which can give a less direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left even more than your frame, and drop down into the turn further than your frame. Any mid lean steering and counter steering moves your hands quite a bit up and down which can make keeping your body lean stable harder without aggressively keeping on top of that movement. With a Hand Lead that is shorter than your Frame Lead, as is with the RR stem, you decrease how much wheel flop you get at the hands. Along with that, your hands are much closer to the contact patch of the tire which can give a more direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left less than your frame, and drop down into the turn less so that you can lean the frame in more. Any mid lean steering and counter steering doesn't disrupt your hands position in space much away from the contact patch of the tire which can make keeping your body's lean stable easier without aggressively needing to keep on top of it. This is all simplified a little because as you turn the front wheel, the contact patch of the tire actually moves towards to the steering axis. This is why when you lean the bike over standing next to it without holding the bars, the wheel turns in up until a certain point. At this point is an inflection point where the steering axis is actually in line with the contact patch of the tire. Depending on how much the bike is leaned will change where that inflection point is. At this inflection point, the frame will no longer drop down as you turn the wheel more, it will actually rise up a bit. At this point, having your hands in front of the steering axis will mean that your hands will still keep dropping down in as the wheel turns more. If you turn the wheel too far past this inflection point, the contact patch of the tire will become so far in front of the steering axis instead of behind it that the wheel will be forced to continue turning in and suddenly jackknife in. With your hands in front of the steering axis and subsequently in front of the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, weighting your hands will make the front try to continue turning in feeding into how it is already being forced to turn in and ultimately making the front jackknife. With your hands behind the steering axis and subsequently behind the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, your hands will be lifting up as you turn the wheel further beyond this inflection point instead of dropping in. This can give something for the rider to push against to keep the front end from jackknifing, and to keep turning the front wheel tighter with control. The hand to front axle position with the RR stem aligning with an around 59 degree headtube angle is relevant from the stand point of reducing your endo angle in the same way that a slacker headtube angle does. This increases stability hitting large bumps, and riding down steeper terrain without feeling like you will go over the bars. I agree that the steering characteristics will be different, but if you are looking just at straight line stability hitting large bumps, or riding down very steep terrain, it is largely the angle that the front wheel is out in front of the riders hands that makes the big difference. The trail measurement that you get with a slacker headtube angle can be achieved with a steeper headtube angle and a shorter fork offset too. So while it is true that just making the actually headtube angle slacker does two jobs, they are largely separate. Many DH bikes also use longer fork offsets than Enduro mtbs, so the trail measurements actually in use on DH bikes aren’t much different to Enduro mtbs sometimes even being shorter on the DH bikes. Actually running a 59 degree headtube angle results in a quite large amount of wheel flop that can make lower speed riding harder to manage, so I feel getting the stability of the hand to front axle position without the wheel flop of that actual steering geometry achieves a better performance on the trail. I don’t recommend weighting your hands when cornering. You should have all of your weight supported over the bottom bracket. That said, the simple answer to why not -30mm instead of -15mm if having a Reversed offset is so good is because it didn’t perform as well in testing. As with any dimension on a bike, after going past a certain point in one direction, there are diminishing returns. I’ve gone as far as -70mm. -30mm does work well, but with the current steering geometry of Enduro mtbs, -15mm gave the best performance. With a different use case and different steering geometry, -30mm could have a place too. Having the hands in line with the steering axis works well too, and I have tested that quite a bit. I find there are added advantages to the -15mm stem offset and roughly -40mm hand offset with the bars backsweep that make it worthwhile still with the right riding style adjustments to take full advantage of it. 😄
Im a guy who likes a taller front end than most guys , i ride 50mm rise bars . Ive tried different rises from 25 to 75 mm before, if the front end is too high you loose control of the front end and the bike feels like a wet noodle . I think this stem could gain popularity if there was different rises available and wasn’t so far back .
What I don't understand is why go to such an extreme? It would make more sense to raise the stem (stack) a lot less than this and certainly not bring the bars back so far. It would be interesting to see if a 30mm rise stem with a 20mm forward reach is better than a standard setup. Make more subtle changes, not just jump to some crazy extreme like this. I always put taller bars on my bikes. I feel like the stock bars on bikes are always too low. Sure, companies could increase the stack height on their frames, but then that doesn't allow riders to make adjustments to their bikes for different preferences. It's fairly easy to change the bars and stem to get a bike to have the feel you want up front. So I hope companies don't get too crazy high with stack heights. They need to find that good balanced spot that is high enough, but allows for a rider to set it up to their liking.
You don’t need to apply any weight via pressure through the hands. If you are supporting all of your weight through your feet over the bottom bracket, you will have 40% - 30% of your weight on the front tire. Dynamically you can adjust this load, and in tighter turns you can really pump the bike driving through the hips and feet while directing the bike with your hands. Your hands should just be there to maneuver and steer and counter steer the bike to maintain the balance as your weight is driving into your side knobs via your feet at the bottom bracket. The reason your front wheel pushes I would argue is more about loosing that balance of driving your weight down into the side knobs and starting to fall over to the inside of the turn actively unloading your tires. This happens because you either leaned your body in too much for your turn, or you lost good feel of where your balance point was. An object in motion wants to stay in motion in a straight line. Your tires are the only thing stopping you from continuing straight. If your weight is pushing forward straight as you lean into a turn and you miss aligned your balance from directly loading the tire, you will not turn, you will just push forward while falling over and washing out. Even if you put 100% of your weight pushing into the bars, if your weight isn’t loading into the tire, you will have zero traction and just push. Supporting your weight in your hands can make keeping that balance harder because as you steer and counter steer, your weight will be moving side to side as the bars move side to side. This is exaggerated worse with a really long forward offset stem as mentioned in my other post about Hand Lead. If your weight is just over the bottom bracket, you can move your hands and the bike underneath you without moving your weight around and loosing that balance. Also, the more the bike is leaned, the less steering you have to do for a given radius of turn and the better side knob engagement you will have for better traction. When turning tighter, that rearward weight bias and driving through the hips and feet while you pump the bike can help to overload the rear tire to force it to oversteer with a rear wheel slide. Combing that with pulling the front around the turn can really whip the bike around very quickly without the front pushing or washing out. Traction is limited, so I’d rather over load and exceed the traction on the rear wheel such that it pushes instead of the front wheel such that it pushes. Henry’s technique of loading the outside foot and inside hand does not pair well with the RR stem since the RR stem will not turn in much when making that weight shift. This would lead to the front washing out because you are leaning in while stopping the bars from turning to match your lean. Arguably, loading the inside hand isn’t that good of a technique in general due to reducing bike body separation, reducing bike lean, and bringing your weight further towards the inside of the bike and away from your side knobs. In general it seems to me that most of the issues expressed during Henry’s review come from trying to get over and on top of the bar and weighting the hands as some try to do on a traditional stem. This technique does not translate as well to the RR stem, and you need to accept that the bar is up high and you are behind it instead of trying to get up and over it anyway. This is also the reason for the increased fatigue when pedaling seated and loading the hands with bent arms and engaged core, and the instability on technical descents and when braking. When you are seated, you should be seated fairly upright with no weight on your hands and relaxed low bent elbows and shoulders instead of weighting your hands with bent arms trying to get on top of the bar. Adjustments to the seat position such as tilting the nose down more, and adjusting it further forward along with even scooting your butt forward help you to simply sit down on steeper climbs without feeling like you are falling back. The lack of load in your hands and matching your forward lean to the force of gravity will keep your arms and core relaxed. When braking hard you should also be driving your weight through your feet, and when riding stepped technical terrain you should be balanced over the bottom bracket using your arms as suspension to extend and compress to match the terrain with good bike body separation. The techniques I’m talking about are exactly what many mtb coaches advise. I actually designed the stem to work best with those techniques to actually make doing them properly easier. Linked are numerous videos of pro riders and mtb coaches talking about exactly this. Keep your hands light, lean the bike, drive your weight through your feet and hips. Jeff Kendall Weed is a great example of an ex pro rider who corners exactly like how I have described including the extreme leaning, pumping, and pulling the bars. Some of the videos even show the riders taking their inside hand off mid turn or even both hands off mid turn further showing the weight in the feet. Even the coaches and pros that do recommend keeping some pressure in the bars for feel recommend loading the outside hand and really leaning the bike over actively suggesting that loading the inside hand leads to washing the front end. Jeff Kendall Weed Cornering and Pumping: m.ua-cam.com/video/4WnV4FwedJQ/v-deo.html m.ua-cam.com/video/G91ShkNEpvs/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdSmVmZiBrZW5kYWxsIHdlZWQgc3dpdGNoYmFja3M%3D m.ua-cam.com/video/nucG1gurWd4/v-deo.html&pp=ygUoSmVmZiBrZW5kYWxsIHdlZWQgZmxvd2luZyBkb3duIHRoZSB0cmFpbA%3D%3D Lee Likes Bikes Cornering, Body Position, and How To Bike: m.ua-cam.com/video/0XTGkV6UAIc/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdTXRiIGNvcm5lcmluZyBsZWUgbGlrZXMgYmlrZXM%3D m.ua-cam.com/video/c2DUQeeAgNQ/v-deo.html&pp=ygUNbXRiIGhpcCBoaW5nZQ%3D%3D m.ua-cam.com/video/-GAaheigvgg/v-deo.html Mountain Bike Training Center Cornering and Body Position: m.ua-cam.com/video/Z40-7tLb8Ro/v-deo.html&pp=ygUbTXRiIGNvcm5lcmluZyBmb290IHBvc2l0aW9u m.ua-cam.com/video/_VSsgwfxx1E/v-deo.html Mountain Bike Academy Cornering and Body Position: m.ua-cam.com/video/9SB1_0s1ivk/v-deo.html m.ua-cam.com/video/eMnSUq_g3ZQ/v-deo.html Aaron Gwin Cornering: m.ua-cam.com/video/z6xQDi4xCuM/v-deo.html Mark Matthews Cornering: m.ua-cam.com/video/LczwojA_Dfg/v-deo.html&pp=ygUVam95IG9mIGJpa2UgY29ybmVyaW5n Children Of The Loam Roosting: m.ua-cam.com/video/zbMTaRzxu9A/v-deo.html&pp=ygUQSG93IHRvIHJvb3N0IG10Yg%3D%3D Finn Iles Shralping and Joel Hardwood Blueprint Athlete Development Outside Hand Pressure Cornering: m.ua-cam.com/video/BT_Ntnlv0J8/v-deo.html m.ua-cam.com/video/lJbOvl_Sup4/v-deo.html&pp=ygUrYmx1ZXByaW50IGF0aGxldGUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgY29ybmVyaW5nIG10Yg%3D%3D Paul The Punter and Kasper Woolley Outside Hand Pressure Cornering: m.ua-cam.com/video/hJf4bQ1y1f0/v-deo.html&pp=ygUYa2FzcGVyIHdvb2xsZXkgY29ybmVyaW5n
We have found peak geo, and it has really become a game of inches. I suspect we'll be seeing new "standards" soon. Since geo won't be a selling feature moving forward.
Loam Wolf set a PR and KOM on it, and the creator dropped seconds off his race times at Southridge. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but not insignificant either.
TLDR: I feel like your findings make a lot of sense for your riding style, and that riding style of weighting the hands and leaning with the bike are not the best way to ride the RR stem. With the right technique and bike setup, the advantages of the RR stem can come through as intended. One of the things I have noticed is that the RR stem feels more sensitive to hand inputs steering, and less sensitive to body weight shifts side to side. So, where a long forward stem may seem slower to respond to hand inputs turning but flop to either side with small body weight shifts side to side, the RR stem will respond faster to the hand inputs while being less sensitive to your body shifts side to side. If you are used to weighting your inside hand by shifting your body in while cornering on a traditional forward stem, particularly one that's a bit longer, you would expect the front wheel to turn in as you lean in towards that hand, and to turn in further as you weight it more towards the end of a turn to bring you out of the turn, or when you need to turn tighter. With the RR stems Reversed offset, initially it will still turn in in a similar way, albeit more muted to your body shifts, when weighting that inside hand, but beyond a certain point of turning tighter, if you put more weight into that inside hand, it will either keep stable where it is and not react much, or even turn out a little. Cornering on two wheels is all about keeping a balance from having your weight falling towards the inside of a turn and making it stand back upright. To control this, we steer and counter steer. When you steer in, you start to stand up, and when you steer out, you start to fall in. If weighting your inside hand would make the front do nothing or try to turn out slightly at a certain point of turning tighter when you are expecting it to turn in more, the bike would fall into the turn more instead of standing up. This I believe is probably what you were feeling where the front end would feel like it would unweight and wash out. Essentially when you were expecting to drive the front end in, it would turn out slightly and make you fall in. This may have even led to a feedback loop of trying to lean into that hand harder to stabilize and force weight onto it more while actually leading to some of the opposite effect from what you were accustomed too. If that's the way you ride, then you can't just bring that style over to the RR stem and expect it to respond the same. You need to ride it how it responds to being ridden. It may not have been an issue with traction as much as you just not putting your weight through the tires in the way that you were expecting, and loosing your balance point. No amount of increased traction will help much with not loading the tires. I'm not a fan of the technique of weighting the hands in general. This is particularly the case for the inside hand because it doesn't allow as much bike lean due to needing your body to be leaned over enough to put weight on that hand, and it can lead to the front jackknifing in when turning tighter. Along with that, if you lean your body inside too much while weighting into the front end, it can bring your weight too far over such that you have shifted your weight inside and off of your tires leading them to washing out. In times where the front loses traction unexpectedly, you are right there on it to go down with it. Putting too much weight pushing through the front can also overload the front tire making it push and wash out straight. An object in motion wants to stay in motion. Putting more weight into the front can make your tire dig in more, but it can also lead to greater resistance to changing direction, and pushing as it digs in deeper to loose dirt. When riding technical terrain, that weight on the hands can be more fatiguing on the arms since you are supporting yourself on them, and can make the bike feel like it is moving you more when your arms are braced leading to an unstable feeling like the bike is riding you. In general, I recommend loading and pushing through the feet, and minimally weighting the hands, sometimes even pulling on the bars as you turn tighter while leaning the bike in a lot. The more a bike is leaned over, the tighter it will turn for a given rotation at the bars, and the better characteristics it will have in a slide with good side knob engagement. Along with that, with all of your weight balanced through your feet, your hands are free to be able to steer and counter steer as you please to control your balance through a turn and keep traction along with moving around and pushing and pulling as needed when the bike moves around underneath you in technical terrain. This helps you to get better bike body separation so that the bike doesn’t destabilize you as it kicks and bucks around. This is where the RR stem comes in. It's greater sensitivity to steering hand inputs gives finer control of this steering and counter steering while it's decreased tendency to flop to either side with different body weight shifts side to side reduces how much unintended front wheel wandering you get as you shift your body around. With your weight loading and pushing through your feet, you can drive the bike into the ground for traction, and even overload the rear to make it push as it digs in deeper to loose dirt while pulling around the front end to keep it from pushing. This can give a really nice carving feeling. In times where the front end unexpectedly loses traction, it slides out slower since you aren't actively pushing it which gives you more time to save a slide. This technique works really well with a traditional stem, and particularly well with the RR stem. Doing this technique helps the bike to be in the leaned over position it responds best too with good loading of your side knobs, and the RR stem makes getting the bike in that position easier. The Raised height even helps keep your arms bent more so you have room to extend and compress as you direct the bike around while the Reversed offset arcing out as you turn keeps you on the outside of the bike so you can lean the bike in more. Your trouble cornering and riding technical terrain initially came as a surprise given that I feel the cornering and technical descending are some of the best attributes of the RR stem. I think it's mostly that it just didn't fit with your riding style. I understand that different riders have different riding styles, so if that's just how you ride, and you don't wish to change that, then the RR stem is probably just not for you. Probably same thing for other riders with a similar weighted hands and lean with the bike style. My goal is ultimately to make riders happier, so if a traditional setup works better for you and your riding style, then power to you. I do believe though that with the right technique and time to adapt, there are a lot of benefits to the RR stem for progressing your riding further. Riders who already have this type of technique will probably get on with the RR stem very well fairly quickly just as my customers and I have, numerous of whom have reported going substantially faster on trails they have been riding for years on their first rides. I know that I'm not going back to a traditional stem, and I have many customers who feel the same. Some of them even bought up to 3 stems to fit onto their other bikes because they loved it so much. The issues expressed climbing I’d say can be remedied some by adjusting the seat position and adjusting technique. Tilting the nose of the saddle notably down, and scooting it forward on the rails or shifting your body forward on the seat can really help with not feeling like you need to hold yourself forward with your core so much. Your arms will be bent more, but your elbows and shoulders should be low and relaxed. You shouldn’t feel that you are needing to hold your self up and forward as much you talked about if you have your seat adjusted for the different position. When going around tight turns, pointing your outer knee in towards the stem greatly improves clearance to the bar, and if you run the RR stem a little taller for your above average height, the bar should largely go over your knee. While I do believe that a long chainstay would be a great addition to the RR stem for my full geometry vision, and my ultimate goal is to make a full frame with my full geometry philosophy and the suspension designs I’ve been working on since 5th or 6th grade, I don't think that it is necessary with the right technique to be able to get good traction on the front end with the RR stem on a bike with a shorter chainstay. I've used it very happily extensively on a bike with a 462mm reach and 432mm chainstay, along with a 500mm reach and a 440mm chainstay. Both bikes cornered phenomenally with the RR stem, and the majority if not all of my customers are riding otherwise standard bikes with very typical chainstay lengths. That said, the disadvantage of decreased maneuverability with longer chainstays largely disappear with the RR stem, so you can just gain stability in rough terrain with them together. I tested this extensively also on a bike with a 462mm chainstay and a 462mm reach, and that was one of my favorite handling bikes. It had amazing stability and control without loosing anything in tighter corners because I could still whip it around with the RR stem.
Is it supposed to be facing in that direction? Seems like turning it around would be more natural. You'd get similar results turning a standard stem in like that
Im angry with all the "hate" around the idea. This review is a desaster. You really should make a part 2 and compare a real dirtbike ergo to a mtb ergo. The main reason this guy developped this stem is to get a dirtbike feel. I really would like to see a custom fabricator jump in and finally make a dirtbike ergo frame on a mtb for once and ever so we know if its good or bad. Thanks.
I would love if Henry did a part 2 where he used the RR stem with the techniques and bike setup that I designed it for, and actually talked to me about the issues he experienced and how to get around them during the time of testing. Most of the issues here seem to be from trying to ride the RR stem in the same way that he rides his traditional stem using arguably poor technique. The RR (Raised Reversed) stems position is very similar to a dirt bike both in stack and reach feet to hands and having your hands behind the steering axis. It’s interesting to me how similar they are considering the RR stem was not inspired by or designed to emulate the position of a dirt bike. I don’t even ride dirt bikes. The RR stem was developed over more than 3 years testing anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem you now see, and anything from 70mm forward to -70mm Reversed always benchmarking against the traditional 50mm - 35mm stem. The RR stem that you see here is the culmination of all that testing to find the best Enduro mtb stem geometry. Many mtb coaches recommend supporting all of your body weight through your feet and being balanced over the bottom bracket with minimal weight in your hands and good bend in your arms when riding in the attack position. The attack position originated in MX as a strong stable stance that lets the bike move underneath you with good bike body separation, good mobility, and gives good control and confidence. That same attack position can now be used properly on an mtb with the RR stem. If you are balanced over the bottom bracket, then your arms can be properly bent and loose to allow good mobility and the bike can kind of teeter up and down around the bottom bracket underneath you. My goal ultimately is to be releasing a DH/Enduro gearbox frame using my suspension design and my full geometry philosophy. The RR stem is a big part of that geometry philosophy for where I believe the future of mtbs will go. I believe that in the future, bikes will have much taller head tubes, with a then much shorter height still Reversed offset stem sat atop and longer chainstays. The RR stem allows you to get some of that geometry of the future with the bike you have now. It both does and has worked very well for both me and my customers as a direct add on to otherwise standard geometry frames given the right technique and bike setup. I’m 5’8” and currently use the RR stem on a Trek Slash 29 M/L. I use that bike to race DH and Enduro.
i've been seeing reviews pop up from time to time, and it has sparked some interesting conversation. in my opinion, if you are adding parts to your bike that drastically change the geo... then maybe you have the wrong bike. if you say it really helps your descending, then maybe consider a downhill bike... or maybe this is a good hack to get around buying a dh. 2 cents
This def seems way too high. I have a decently high stack and riser bar, but just low enough to still allow for tech climbing and good body positioning all around. I like the reasonably higher bar for comfort as well as balance
If you really want to try this stem pinkbike just showed you a much much cheaper way of doing it, just buy some high rise bars and face your stem backwards, same result.
Taller rise bar, or even a lowish but wide BMX cruiser bar would do the same thing. You might want to angle your rise with your forks though, you dont have to have your rise straight up and down as you seemed to setup most those bar variations. If you've ridden BMX you'd know how drastically different bar height and bar angle play a role in the entire ride. Too far forward "Chicago style" which really can be straight up and down, causes the steering to get twitchy, but some riders like the change in pop it gives them, like Dan Kruk. For the most part, keeping it in line with the fork blade offset is going to give you the best control. It was really odd to see you do those setups with the riser bars and have the rise portion very "Chicago'd" compared to the fork angle. I'm sure if you had them inline with the fork you'd eventually get the same location as that god aweful looking stem, you could even angle the bars back a little but I wouldnt, a similar effect occurs with making them not inline with the forks. Either way, I dont see this stem catching on whatsoever, you can achieve the same geometry with a tall enough riser bar and angle, this looks like an Ali Express item that Sam Pilgram would test and destroy while simultaneously calling it Epic as he does everything he breaks.
Perhaps throw this stem on the grim donut and see what happens?????!???? It'd be interesting to see how that tall stem would behave on a bike with about 4"-6" more reach.......where it would essentially recreate the riding position one has for a motocross bike (which is how Dakota Norton sets up his downhill bike handlebar). A stretched out front triangle would not create the cramped climbing / tight trail issues when mounted on a normal bike like the Transition. So close.....they'll figure it out eventually. Perhaps throw this stem on the grim donut and see what happens?????!????
I'd try it. I mean, if there was a demo stem at my local shop of choice and I could take it for a 1 hr loop. Bit of a leap of faith to just order up and hope for the best ...
@@dtacto Often times you can run your rear brake hose, shifter cable, and dropper cable behind the RR stem for a shorter path if it can’t reach going around the front side. The front brake is either long enough or not long enough though, and there isn’t any workaround for that other than making it longer if it’s too short. Often times the front brake hose is still long enough as it was on the bike before the RR stem, but sometimes you will need to make that one longer. There is a way to test if your front brake is long enough before actually installing the stem if you are interested.
The key here was missed, the stem has a negative length and obviously can be lower than that. Second a bike needs to be designed around it, would need a chainstay of at least 450mm and and a longer reach
That’s actually why I call them Raised Reversed stems. This is the Raised version of my Reversed stem philosophy. A shorter still Reversed offset version is in the works for the riders around 5’4” and less who are too short for the current RR stem, and riders who just prefer it lower. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. At the extremes of turning angles, the Reversed offset helps reduce the likelihood of having the front jackknife such that you can keep turning tighter. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain. I would love if Henry did a part 2 where he used the RR stem with the techniques and bike setup that I designed it for, and actually talked to me about the issues he experienced and how to get around them during the time of testing. Most of the issues here seem to be from trying to ride the RR stem in the same way that he rides his traditional stem using arguably poor technique like weighting the inside hand and not leaning the bike as much when cornering and trying to get up and over the bars instead of just accepting that they are tall and getting low behind them with all of his weight going through the bottom bracket. Many mtb coaches recommend supporting all of your body weight through your feet and being balanced over the bottom bracket with minimal weight in your hands and good bend in your arms when riding in the attack position and when cornering where you have too really lean the bike over. The attack position originated in MX as a strong stable stance that lets the bike move underneath you with good bike body separation, good mobility, and gives good control and confidence. The RR stem through its independent testing process experimenting with anything from 70mm forward offset to -70mm Reversed offset, and below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem here always benchmarking against traditional 50mm - 35mm stems for over 3 years ended up putting the riders hands in a position practically identical to a dirt bike both in Stack and Reach feet to hands and having the riders hands behind the steering axis. That same attack position can now be used properly on an mtb with the RR stem. If you are balanced over the bottom bracket, then your arms can be properly bent and loose to allow good mobility and the bike can kind of teeter up and down around the bottom bracket underneath you. My goal ultimately is to be releasing a DH/Enduro gearbox frame using my suspension design and my full geometry philosophy. The RR stem is a big part of that geometry philosophy for where I believe the future of mtbs will go. I believe that in the future, bikes will have much taller head tubes, with a then much shorter height still Reversed offset stem sat atop and longer chainstays. The RR stem allows you to get some of that geometry of the future with the bike you have now. It both does and has worked very well for both me and my customers as a direct add on to otherwise standard geometry frames given the right technique and bike setup. I’m 5’8” and currently use the RR stem on a Trek Slash 29 M/L. I use that bike to race DH and Enduro.
BMX riders be like “I can sell you something similar for $20”.
Yeah well I do have a 150 mm BMX cruiser bar I got for 60 bucks. And it’s the shit. The only difference is this stem is a slightly reverse reach. And 5-6 times more expensive.
What you basically need is a dropper post for your bars.
Raise it for the downhill, put it back down for the climbs and flats.
It can all fit nicely in the fork steerer.
Problem solved.
Maybe, but he didn't like it either uphill or downhill
I concepted a dropper bar that changes sweep, rise, stem length and width all at once.
Here is a link to a GIF that shows it moving.
drive.google.com/file/d/1C95lAawAmCGnhZeHbVgwOBi8-zazQY6O/view?usp=drive_link
Genius
We definitely do not need this. Do you work for Canyon? 😂
The moment I saw Seth with this, I knew we'd have dropper stems within 10 years
Try turning the stem 180 degrees so it's not reversed. It might fix the issues that you feel with the weighting
Seems perfect for bumbling down the trails
Honestly, after seeing the Berm Peak video I got a 60mm rise Spank Spoon handlebar and I quite like it. Obviously, it's quite different that this BMB one, but I've grown quite fond of the rise on it!
Same. After being away from mtb for well over a decade, things have changed alot. But, I'm very happy that more upright riding position parts are available nowadays, compared to 10-12 years ago there wasn't as much.
I too went with 60mm bars and love every aspect of it.
Same thing, man. Spank Spoon 60 😂😂😂
Good choice. Spank bars 60 and FUNN 10 degree rise👍👍
same. also, the 9 degrees backsweep is very nice. i've bought many of it and gave some away, and have yet to find anyone who would go back.
Yeah, I've been riding some motocross bars with 90m rise for some time, and I'm loving my newly found courage and balance to ride!
I've been out of the game for well over a decade. I will say, i have never liked the traditional riding position of mtb. Too far forward, too much weight over the front,very unstable, and uncomfortable. I have always used riser bars, but now i use 60mm + rise. I love every aspect of the more upright position. It feels very more motocross bike like. Less sore back, hands , and wrists. Much more stable during jumps and drops. And hasnt affected my climbing one bit.
Parts like this stem really push the direction of technology of the sport. I love it.
Awesome honest video emphasising weight distribution and what impacts that has. FWIW I swapped out my flat bar for a 35mm rise and loved it. Then swapped for a 60mm rise Spoon bar and found it GAME CHANGING. Literally everything was better without compromise. Then swapped for the 80mm Diety highside bar and love it even more. Thats with 15mm stem spacers and a 5deg 50mm stem, and I like my bar rotated a bit further forward than most. So my reach is not massively affected, just a lot of stack height. Size XL frame. All that said, I'm 6'4" with long legs. The bike style and size suits me, but my thinking is that 1) Stack heights are not frame adjusted appropriately between sizes (my XL is only 15mm higher than the size M, despite being made for a person height 6-9" different.) and 2) especially for long legs, which raises your hips and increases your "fold" angle (angle of femur to lower back) the higher rise supports your effective weight distribution tremendously. I can get far more weight on the front wheel because that balance point is now in an easier range for my body to control. TALL PEOPLE CONSIDER!
Exactly the same here. I am 6’5”, and I am a bike fitter. The 80mm rise bars with high rise stem puts my grips just a hair above my saddle. When I fit a short rider, they need a slimmed stemmed stem and flat bar to get the same posture.
Each bike and each body is different.
I’m 5’8” tall and I designed the stem to work for me. I run it with about 20mm of spacers under it and 25mm rise bars that way a shorter rider can run it lower. I have numerous customers well over 6’0”, tallest I think being 6’9”, who are loving the height for that exact reason. Bikes do not scale proportionally with different sizes. This is most obvious on the chainstay length and the stack height. If the reach is a smaller number than the stack, then if the reach grows by 20mm between sizes, the stack should be growing by even more per size to be proportional. Same thing with chainstays, albeit growing by a slightly smaller number. I even have one customer who is 6’4” running his RR stem with 65mm rise bars!
I do have shorter riders using the stem very happily too though, the shortest that I’m aware of being 5’5”. He’s bought 3 RR stems in total now because he loves it so much he wanted all his bikes to have one. I’d say 5’5”-5’4” is probably the cutoff for where it can work in its current height. That’s how tall Seth from Berm Peak is, and he really liked the descending with the RR stem, but struggled a bit on really technical climbs with ledges.
With bike geo as it is, I feel taller riders need a taller front end for better body position, but until they get proportional chainstays too, they will still be proportionally lower than shorter riders. Shorter riders benefit from a proportionally taller front end so that they can still have enough leverage for lifting the front end and maneuvering the proportionally really long rear end.
6'3 here, I agree i have 75mm rise bars xl bike luvv it. They make so many frame sizes but it just feels like its not the bike for me the riser bars helpt alot i remember the first ride it was a game changer for my bike. Looking at mtb video's im always a little jealous of the fact there bars are higher then the saddle (for smaller people)
Quick rule of thumb, your bars should be as high as your seat at full extension. Most taller riders have their bars too low
@@cben86- rules of thumb are usually worth the paper they’re written on.
Look at motocross bikes. They’ve had like 60 years and they still have their bars at stomach height. If riding a bicycle instead of a motorcycle necessitates being vastly less comfortable, with less visibility, your diaphragm crunched up, and having your center of gravity closer to an endo all the time, it’s not clear to me why.
I’m 6’1”, I ride a large Spot Rocker singlespeed, with a 10mm rise stem and a 150mm rise BMX cruiser bar. It looks like a grown up BMX bike, which is what it is - a cross country BMX bike for an adult.
How about putting it on the grim donut?
You have a point, it would probably complement all of its crazy geometry.
I think it actually would feel great on it. I remember yoanns crazy stretched out body position on that bike. I can see it being more natural with this stem. And since you already have so much front center on the donut, you should still have great traction.
As someone who also owns a spire, with a similar cockpit setup as Henry, the bike is so well balanced and so good at basically everything (climbing and descending) that i can't imagine changing anything, as it would probably ruin the ballence of the bike and make it worse in some aspect
I want a spire so bad
Does it not struggle with front grip sometimes?
@@almabatekert_villanykorte3387 nope! As long as you keep your weight ballenced, it has front end grip for days!
I got it!!! A DROPPER STEM!!!!!
Got my spire spring of last year and everything about the geometry is perfect for me. Just swapped my Bomber Z1 for a 38 180mm so now the front is more slack but feels even more stable in fast chunk now 👌
the very long chainstays weigh the front automatically! the bike will help you improve riding style as it will make you ride more through the feet and less through the arms :)@@almabatekert_villanykorte3387
I've been experimenting with high stack recently and really enjoying it. I built up a Stooge Mk6 with an 85mm rise bar on a top-load BMX stem which also has some rise. Considering it's a rigid bike, and all the limitations which should come with that, the confidence I have dropping into steep stuff with that high front end (and fairly moderate reach) is crazy. It's been very eye-opening on how geometry really is the most important thing, and arguably can trump suspension travel.
One thing I dislike about this sort of one-day test is the over confidence in your ability to judge accurately. You do make a good argument about the narrowing of the balance point and may be completely correct in your assertions. I have tried 8 different crank lengths over the last 5 or 6 years from 175mm to 130mm. It takes about 15 or 20 hours to learn how to pedal a new crank in a basically competent manner, and my first "short" crank (a 153mm) it took 50 or 60 hours to learn most of the new techniques and rpm ranges I could use. Then i had to develop new muscles to use the new techniques. A one-day test would have been absurdly invalid. So, I dismiss this video as not worthy of consideration. Like I said, you may be right, but put more effort into it.
This ^
He did say that he has "..ridden the stem quite a few miles on just. Just not done a back to back before. "
@@pernyberg2816still not enough hours, I'd bet.
Back in maybe 2007 I fitted Chromag flat bars (on a direct mount stem) on my downhill bike and it made me significantly more precise and a little bit faster. I can’t imagine this setup working (for me)
Will this help me bumbeling my bike down double blacks?
Another way to achieve it is to get a high raise bar . Rotate it to your desired reach and it will have the same feel
Expensive experiments (solutions looking for problems) are all the rage in the bike industry, when what they really need to do is figure out how to make decent bikes for under $7k again.
I run a Spank Spoon 60 with a RedShift 80 damper stem and it is Magic for Me!
So what we've currently got is fine. That's good to know. Glad we could clear that up.
I’d be curious to try sizing up the bike and reversing a very short stem. I wonder how much the difference is just that the bar is behind the steer tube, and eliminating the factor of it being so high
This thing would be totally unnecessary if manufacturers would simply stop cutting steerer tubes so short.
Amen to that. Not only are you stuck with a bar height that is too short for most, every takeoff on the used market (something those looking to upgrade on a budget rely on) is also too short. If I am paying for a component on a new bike, I want all of it!
Meh, overly long steerer tubes look awkward, and if you want to run your stem lower than sky high, you'll have an excessive amount of steerer tube sticking up at you unless you cut it and reposition or install a new star nut. Just get a riser stem and/or bars if you really need more height.
Who cares about look? Star nuts are cheap. I'd rather it be taller then i want and be able to cut it down than too short and have to find a new bar.
Increase the reach and lower slack of frame without any regards to fit and playfulness.. And then sell a stem to increase stack and reduce reach for 400$. Yes that makes sense 😅💯
Hear me out. Two words:
Dropper STEM.
Who’s coming with me?
Canyon, probably
Doesn't shimano have a prototype or concept of an auto adjust stem on an e-bike? Don't remember if it's reach, stack or both but kinda cool
Only if you can somehow make it wireless.
been saying that for 4 yrs now
Hah. I said it too. Dropper stem. This is the way
I think that to get the most benefit from this type of stem you would have to size up the frame. The longer reach would offset lack of weight on the front end, I assume.
we need loger chainstays in order to put more weight on the front
A longer front center would reduce the weight on the front even more. Longer rear center would help. That said, a longer front reach might allow to to get in a posture to actively apply pressure at certain times
@@tjb8841 yes. that's what I meant because to me it looked like the bars were drastically close to the rider on that bike. When I am on a bike and the short reach gives me that effect, I tend to scoot back to compensate, reducing weight on the front. Could be my bad technique though....
yes but look at the chainstay lengths on the spire...@@sultanofchill
You are spot on with needing to go up a frame size. I’ve ridden the RR on my bike which is a size larger than recommended. Totally transformed the bike. I run 80mm rise bars and a short stem to get a less aggressive version of the RR stem setup
This video highlighted (for me) how the climbing position will be. Which, I'll be honest, made me cringe a bit 😆
To anyone looking for a different perspective. Brian Cahal also made videos for this stem.
I’ve been riding on the Raised Reverse Stem for a year now. To maximize the benefits, you have to change body position, and adapt. My bike rips with it.
Thank you! I fully agree. Some people don’t like to change and adapt to new ideas. This isn’t for them. Riders who are open to make the necessary adjustments, which aren’t that hard to do, can take full advantage of the many benefits that the RR stem allows. It greatly rewards the right technique and bike setup for riding the RR stem, but I think it may also further punish the “wrong” technique and setup as we have seen in this review. Riders who already ride with that kind of technique, as many already do, can feel the benefits right away. If you try to use a technique that plays directly off of the dynamics of a low and forward offset stem, and try to use it unchanged on a Raised and Reversed offset stem, it will basically do the opposite of what you want and expect it to do.
630 mm Stack is not really high and 35mm rise too me is also just middle of the road. I have been riding 60mm riser bars since years and my old banshee prime already has a 637mm stack... So high cockpits feel pretty good if you have a balanced bike. Just too short reach can make you feel cramped. So I think it is always a compromise between comfortable fit and available grip.
As someone with short upper body and arm combined with long legs I missed bike fit considerations in all of this. That said I do need a higher bar for the bike to fit me better.
Just can't see it working with current geometry, but in the future generations of frames could be designed for it. I used to laugh at Gary Fisher bikes with 29 wheels back in the 1990s.
Heck yea Bronson this is so cool to see man! I remember watching the prototyping happen at southridge with a reversed fox 40 clam and dm stem!
Lol, yeah that was a sketchy rats nest! 😅 It did allow me to test a lot of different offsets and heights with the steerer tube extender though before settling into a strong fixed position CNC machined prototype. I spent over 3 years testing anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem, and offsets from 70mm forward to -70mm Reversed and pretty much everything in between on various bikes and geos to see what worked best always benchmarking against traditional 50mm - 35mm stems. It’s been a fun journey, and I’m very happy with the performance of the current version and so are my customers. Some of them even loved the RR stem so much, they bought 2 or 3 to fit the rest of their bikes. 😊
I'm introducing a concept I call Hand Lead and Frame Lead. Mechanical Frame Lead is the exact same as the mechanical trail measurement people are familiar with, just with a name I feel is a bit more intuitive. Since the tire is the only thing actually in contact with the ground, this is where you are actually turning from, and should be the conceptual origin point to look from. It is from that point at the contact patch of the tire that the frame is leading the front wheel. You would find out how much Mechanical Frame Lead you have by drawing a straight line down through the steering axis till it intersects the ground, and then drawing a line perpendicular to the steering axis that intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your frame has to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, the frame will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as the frame swings side to side on that lever, it will also drop down to each side. This is known as wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Frame Lead along with the more weight you have above that lever, the more wheel flop you get.
The Hand Lead is just like the Frame Lead but looking at the relationship of your hands to the contact patch of the tire. You would find out how much Mechanical Hand Lead you have by drawing a straight line to the ground parallel to the steering axis such that it intersects the centerline between your grips. You would then draw a line perpendicular to that line such that it intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your hands have to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, your hands will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as your hands swing side to side on that lever, they will also drop down to each side. This contributes to wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Hand Lead along with the more weight you put through your hands, the more wheel flop you get.
With a Hand Lead that is longer than your Frame Lead, as is traditional, you further enhance the wheel flop of your frame alone. Along with that, your hands are even further away from the contact patch of the tire which can give a less direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left even more than your frame, and drop down into the turn further than your frame. Any mid lean steering and counter steering moves your hands quite a bit up and down which can make keeping your body lean stable harder without aggressively keeping on top of that movement.
With a Hand Lead that is shorter than your Frame Lead, as is with the RR stem, you decrease how much wheel flop you get at the hands. Along with that, your hands are much closer to the contact patch of the tire which can give a more direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left less than your frame, and drop down into the turn less so that you can lean the frame in more. Any mid lean steering and counter steering doesn't disrupt your hands position in space much away from the contact patch of the tire which can make keeping your body's lean stable easier without aggressively needing to keep on top of it.
This is all simplified a little because as you turn the front wheel, the contact patch of the tire actually moves towards to the steering axis. This is why when you lean the bike over standing next to it without holding the bars, the wheel turns in up until a certain point. At this point is an inflection point where the steering axis is actually in line with the contact patch of the tire. Depending on how much the bike is leaned will change where that inflection point is. At this inflection point, the frame will no longer drop down as you turn the wheel more, it will actually rise up a bit. At this point, having your hands in front of the steering axis will mean that your hands will still keep dropping down in as the wheel turns more. If you turn the wheel too far past this inflection point, the contact patch of the tire will become so far in front of the steering axis instead of behind it that the wheel will be forced to continue turning in and suddenly jackknife in. With your hands in front of the steering axis and subsequently in front of the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, weighting your hands will make the front try to continue turning in feeding into how it is already being forced to turn in and ultimately making the front jackknife. With your hands behind the steering axis and subsequently behind the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, your hands will be lifting up as you turn the wheel further beyond this inflection point instead of dropping in. This can give something for the rider to push against to keep the front end from jackknifing, and to keep turning the front wheel tighter with control.
I find it very interesting (not judging-- plain old interesting) that out of all the videos I've watched regarding the BMB stem, this is the only one where the reviewer really did NOT like it. Here's my take on why:
1a. He is by far the most accomplished rider (out of the reviews I've seen on YT) and it makes me wonder if the RR stem is more suited towards riders not of elite caliber, but instead, more suited towards well above average riders (Braunson, the creator puts down some serious hot laps at Southridge-- proving grounds for the likes of Aaron Gwin, Dante Silva, Ryan Pinkerton, et al). In other words, is the stem accomplishing something an elite rider doesn't need?
1b. He's well known for being completely, one bazillion percent, dialed into his Spire as-is; so would anything different make him less happy?
2. As another poster opined below, was enough time spent dialing-in and adjusting to the stem to get used to it?
2a. For instance, how do balance and body position changes affect the need to redo suspension settings/tire PSI/etc.?
2b. Every body and body proportions are different, not to mention each bike's geo, so how much fine tuning was done between spacer height, bar roll, etc.?
3. It makes sense that the majority of complaints about the stem center around climbing and slow techy sections when one considers the SoCal trails that this stem was presumably designed around. I don't know the creator so I could be guessing, but shuttling is a very common thing around these parts and bombing gnarly loose steep rocky trails is the norm. So not sure how much PNW or back east-type climbing was done when designing the stem.
4. The RR stem is not unlike how motorcross bikes are designed, for whatever that's worth.
Either way, kudos to Braunson for making the stem and even more kudos to the likes of Pinkbike and others for shedding light on something clearly pushing conventional mtb thinking and design; especially when it was designed by someone who loves MTB and isn't backed by a multi-million dollar bike conglomerate.
Are the grips now behind the steering axis? That would make it stabilise by pulling on the bars in stead of leaning on it. That would require a huge adjustment in riding technique
They are actually. The RR (Raised Reversed) stem features a -15mm offset which combined with the backsweep of most bars will put your hands about 40mm behind the steering axis. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain.
It does require a different riding technique than Henry has, but not that much different than what many mtb coaches actually recommend and many other riders already do where you keep all of your weight loaded through the bottom bracket and your feet with light hands, and you lean the bike over substantially more than your body to get it to turn smoothly with good side knob engagement. Many of the issues expressed in this review I believe are from trying to ride the RR stem the same way he rode his traditional stem like weighting the inside hand in turns and trying to get up on top of the bar instead of accepting that it is tall and riding low behind it with all of his weight through his feet all the while arguably using poor technique that doesn’t pair well with the RR stem. Customers I have usually are able to adapt to the RR stem pretty quickly with numerous riders getting PRs on their first rides with the RR stem on trails they’ve been riding for years.
The steering does still stabilize straight when you push on it though because your hands are still in front of the contact patch of the tire along the steering geometry. They just do it to a smaller extent. This is due to a phenomenon I call “Hand Lead” which is kind of like the trail measurement but for your hands to the contact patch of the tire.
This is the perfect video for April Fools Day.
You should try this stem with the fancy motion fork. They might be a badass combo.
Turn it 180. 👍
I sure wish you would really test the Polè Vikkela 190/190, you guys went from the Ebike Voima, jumped over the Vikkela (analog one that most people own) and then went to the DH designed Onni. that GEO is STELLAR.
You should do a video with the rr stem and a +1 hta angleset to test your hypothesis from the original video. You never made this bike steeper, although obviously the rr stem is supposed to mitigate some of the effects of a slack hta
New forks come with really long steerers. Just don't trim your steerer next time you upgrade your fork. Use a really big stack of spacers under a short stem instead.
Yeh its fun when your steer tube snaps of and your cruising down a hill with the disconnected bars in your hands.
This will work but you need a bike with a longer rear end/chainstay.
It’ll be great with a bike that you can adjust head angle and the chainstay length.
Spot on
I had a stem very similar to this in the early 00's.
Great If you have a large and you need medium. Adjust chsinstay, buy this. Good for rentals, less sizes to buy.
I run them, they do work amazing
As the saying goes: “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure!” The more options the better, I say.. 🙂 It’s great when people think out of the box!
For a smaller driver this might not make a difference, but for tall guys this could be great. The Stack won't change much with the size of the bike, so that taller driver drive the bike in a very different way.
I really like this idea, but could not justify the $ as i also would have to redo all lines. Soo I bought a Deity bar with a 80mm rise, major difference!!!!
Often times you can run your rear brake hose, shifter cable, and dropper cable behind the RR stem for a shorter path if it can’t reach going around the front side. The front brake is either long enough or not long enough though, and there isn’t any workaround for that. Often times the front brake hose is still long enough as it was on the bike before the RR stem, but sometimes you will need to make that one longer. There is a way to test if your front brake is long enough before actually installing the stem if you are interested.
A highrise bar and highrise stem are two completely different things. Highrise bars can be rolled forward to increase the cockpit length, put more weight on the front tire, and improve climbing position. That stem doesn't allow you to do that. Highrise bars are a much better option.
446mm chain stays aren't long, the Spire looks long as the seat post is offset forwards of the BB
I had an engineer cast one for me for $40.
Stuff paying $500 for it !!
I tried this with a 15mm stem reversed with high bars, also tried 0mm and -10mm and didn’t find it helped anything. 15mm stems when combined with the pullback of most bars puts your hands in line with the steerer, effectively 0mm reach and that seems optimum to me. The bar height can affect reach and be down to personal preference, along with the frame reach, but I can’t see how the negative reach from the steerer would improve anything, just as being further from 0mm forwards is seen as bad, so is further from 0mm backwards.
The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. At the extremes of turning angles, the Reversed offset helps reduce the likelihood of having the front jackknife such that you can keep turning tighter. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain.
I have tested from -70mm Reversed offset to 70mm forward offset and many different offsets in between at many different heights from below traditional to about 80mm taller than the production RR stem for over 3 years. -15mm was what I found gave the best steering characteristics which combined with the backsweep of most bars is about 40mm behind the steering axis at the grips. There are some adjustments to technique that some need to make to get the most out of that though. I commend you for having done your own testing to find what works best for you. 🙂
@@bemorebikes
Well you say "arcs out", but what that actually means is that on a left hand turn where your hands normally move 'in' - it's actually left, and on a reversed stem your hands move 'out', which is actually right, which is counter-intuitive. When I tried it, I didn't find the bike felt less likely to jackknife, and I'm not sure why you say that's the case either. On a normal stem if the bike jackknifes the bars would come towards you, so you'd counter by pushing, and on your stem it would pull away from you, and you would have to pull them - I don't see why one of those is better than the other?
I don't agree with your hand-to-axle position mimicking a 59° head angle though as that isn't a relevant metric - it's not the hand-to-axle position that gives you confidence on a slack bike, it's the angle combined with the wheel trail that does it, otherwise you could have a 90° HA bike with a -200mm stem and recreate the axle-to-hand position, but that wouldn't give you the same confidence.
Finally, if you say that the negative reach improves handling by weighting your hands more on the 'outside', why don't you think a -30mm stem is even better then? I simply think having your hands at 0mm is optimal and the most intuitive. You should have a chat with Rulezman!
@@coreygunWhile it is true that if you are looking relative to the frame, your hands will be moving to the left when you turn left with a forward offset, and to the right when you turn left with a Reversed offset, that isn’t the relevant reference frame here. When you are turning and leaning the bike, since you are the heaviest mass in the rider and bike system, your COG needs to be leaned over a given amount for a given turn. At that lean of your body, and dropping in of your hands turning the bar, the bike will be leaned over a certain amount. You can drop your hands in turning the bar further to lean the bike more, but there is a limit to how far your hands can move down away from your body. If your hands are in front of the steering axis, your frame will not be able to lean in as much as your hands are dropped in turning the bar. The longer the forward offset stem, the more upright the bike will be for a given amount of dropping the hands in turning the bar. If your hands are behind the steering axis, your frame will be leaned in further than your hands are dropped in turning the bar. As such, it’s not so much that when you turn left your hands move right and out, it’s more so that when you turn left the frame moves left and in. You are the origin of the movement and reference plane, not the frame of the bike.
To understand why the front is less prone to jackknifing with the RR stem relative to a 50mm stem for example, I must first explain the concepts that I’m introducing called “Frame Lead” and “Hand Lead”. Mechanical Frame Lead is the exact same as the mechanical trail measurement people are familiar with, just with a name I feel is a bit more intuitive. Since the tire is the only thing actually in contact with the ground, this is where you are actually turning from, and should be the conceptual origin point to look from. It is from that point at the contact patch of the tire that the frame is leading the front wheel. You would find out how much Mechanical Frame Lead you have by drawing a straight line down through the steering axis till it intersects the ground, and then drawing a line perpendicular to the steering axis that intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your frame has to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, the frame will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as the frame swings side to side on that lever, it will also drop down to each side. This is known as wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Frame Lead along with the more weight you have above that lever, the more wheel flop you get.
The Hand Lead is just like the Frame Lead but looking at the relationship of your hands to the contact patch of the tire. You would find out how much Mechanical Hand Lead you have by drawing a straight line to the ground parallel to the steering axis such that it intersects the centerline between your grips. You would then draw a line perpendicular to that line such that it intersects the contact patch of the tire. You then measure the length of that line. That length is the length of the lever that your hands have to lead the front tire. When you turn left and right, your hands will pivot around the contact patch of the tire and swing left and right along that lever. Due to the angle of the steering axis and subsequent upward angle of that lever, as your hands swing side to side on that lever, they will also drop down to each side. This contributes to wheel flop. The slacker the headtube angle and/or longer the Hand Lead along with the more weight you put through your hands, the more wheel flop you get.
With a Hand Lead that is longer than your Frame Lead, as is traditional, you further enhance the wheel flop of your frame alone. Along with that, your hands are even further away from the contact patch of the tire which can give a less direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left even more than your frame, and drop down into the turn further than your frame. Any mid lean steering and counter steering moves your hands quite a bit up and down which can make keeping your body lean stable harder without aggressively keeping on top of that movement.
With a Hand Lead that is shorter than your Frame Lead, as is with the RR stem, you decrease how much wheel flop you get at the hands. Along with that, your hands are much closer to the contact patch of the tire which can give a more direct feel of what is happening at the contact patch of the tire in times of low traction when it is moving side to side in loose terrain. When you turn left and lean the bike, your hands move left less than your frame, and drop down into the turn less so that you can lean the frame in more. Any mid lean steering and counter steering doesn't disrupt your hands position in space much away from the contact patch of the tire which can make keeping your body's lean stable easier without aggressively needing to keep on top of it.
This is all simplified a little because as you turn the front wheel, the contact patch of the tire actually moves towards to the steering axis. This is why when you lean the bike over standing next to it without holding the bars, the wheel turns in up until a certain point. At this point is an inflection point where the steering axis is actually in line with the contact patch of the tire. Depending on how much the bike is leaned will change where that inflection point is. At this inflection point, the frame will no longer drop down as you turn the wheel more, it will actually rise up a bit. At this point, having your hands in front of the steering axis will mean that your hands will still keep dropping down in as the wheel turns more. If you turn the wheel too far past this inflection point, the contact patch of the tire will become so far in front of the steering axis instead of behind it that the wheel will be forced to continue turning in and suddenly jackknife in. With your hands in front of the steering axis and subsequently in front of the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, weighting your hands will make the front try to continue turning in feeding into how it is already being forced to turn in and ultimately making the front jackknife. With your hands behind the steering axis and subsequently behind the contact patch of the tire at this inflection point, your hands will be lifting up as you turn the wheel further beyond this inflection point instead of dropping in. This can give something for the rider to push against to keep the front end from jackknifing, and to keep turning the front wheel tighter with control.
The hand to front axle position with the RR stem aligning with an around 59 degree headtube angle is relevant from the stand point of reducing your endo angle in the same way that a slacker headtube angle does. This increases stability hitting large bumps, and riding down steeper terrain without feeling like you will go over the bars. I agree that the steering characteristics will be different, but if you are looking just at straight line stability hitting large bumps, or riding down very steep terrain, it is largely the angle that the front wheel is out in front of the riders hands that makes the big difference. The trail measurement that you get with a slacker headtube angle can be achieved with a steeper headtube angle and a shorter fork offset too. So while it is true that just making the actually headtube angle slacker does two jobs, they are largely separate. Many DH bikes also use longer fork offsets than Enduro mtbs, so the trail measurements actually in use on DH bikes aren’t much different to Enduro mtbs sometimes even being shorter on the DH bikes. Actually running a 59 degree headtube angle results in a quite large amount of wheel flop that can make lower speed riding harder to manage, so I feel getting the stability of the hand to front axle position without the wheel flop of that actual steering geometry achieves a better performance on the trail.
I don’t recommend weighting your hands when cornering. You should have all of your weight supported over the bottom bracket. That said, the simple answer to why not -30mm instead of -15mm if having a Reversed offset is so good is because it didn’t perform as well in testing. As with any dimension on a bike, after going past a certain point in one direction, there are diminishing returns. I’ve gone as far as -70mm. -30mm does work well, but with the current steering geometry of Enduro mtbs, -15mm gave the best performance. With a different use case and different steering geometry, -30mm could have a place too. Having the hands in line with the steering axis works well too, and I have tested that quite a bit. I find there are added advantages to the -15mm stem offset and roughly -40mm hand offset with the bars backsweep that make it worthwhile still with the right riding style adjustments to take full advantage of it. 😄
I've always wanted something like that, maybe not that tall, but close.
Im a guy who likes a taller front end than most guys , i ride 50mm rise bars . Ive tried different rises from 25 to 75 mm before, if the front end is too high you loose control of the front end and the bike feels like a wet noodle . I think this stem could gain popularity if there was different rises available and wasn’t so far back .
What I don't understand is why go to such an extreme? It would make more sense to raise the stem (stack) a lot less than this and certainly not bring the bars back so far. It would be interesting to see if a 30mm rise stem with a 20mm forward reach is better than a standard setup. Make more subtle changes, not just jump to some crazy extreme like this.
I always put taller bars on my bikes. I feel like the stock bars on bikes are always too low. Sure, companies could increase the stack height on their frames, but then that doesn't allow riders to make adjustments to their bikes for different preferences. It's fairly easy to change the bars and stem to get a bike to have the feel you want up front. So I hope companies don't get too crazy high with stack heights. They need to find that good balanced spot that is high enough, but allows for a rider to set it up to their liking.
I’m sure with a riser bar rolled back a little your hand position would be the same. It’s just more bling to take your money
Xl frame 495mm reach. 650mm, 15mm spacers 35mm rise bars. stack 64° ha. 440mm chainstay. Job done?
Try rotating your bars in front of the stem. It'll look stupid, but give you extra knee clearence.
what`s the name of the MUDHUGGER that you have on your
Ohlins?
So we have a product that's worse than the suspension stem finally
I messed around a lot with different stem lengths and bar rises. I personally don’t like it high up, but I get the shortest stem possible
You need to factor in your height and frame’s stack height. People and bikes come in different sizes
We could just stick wide BMX bars on.... But I'm not a pro and I I only bimble down my trails so this probably doesn't apply to me does it Henry?
You don’t need to apply any weight via pressure through the hands. If you are supporting all of your weight through your feet over the bottom bracket, you will have 40% - 30% of your weight on the front tire. Dynamically you can adjust this load, and in tighter turns you can really pump the bike driving through the hips and feet while directing the bike with your hands. Your hands should just be there to maneuver and steer and counter steer the bike to maintain the balance as your weight is driving into your side knobs via your feet at the bottom bracket.
The reason your front wheel pushes I would argue is more about loosing that balance of driving your weight down into the side knobs and starting to fall over to the inside of the turn actively unloading your tires. This happens because you either leaned your body in too much for your turn, or you lost good feel of where your balance point was. An object in motion wants to stay in motion in a straight line. Your tires are the only thing stopping you from continuing straight. If your weight is pushing forward straight as you lean into a turn and you miss aligned your balance from directly loading the tire, you will not turn, you will just push forward while falling over and washing out. Even if you put 100% of your weight pushing into the bars, if your weight isn’t loading into the tire, you will have zero traction and just push. Supporting your weight in your hands can make keeping that balance harder because as you steer and counter steer, your weight will be moving side to side as the bars move side to side. This is exaggerated worse with a really long forward offset stem as mentioned in my other post about Hand Lead. If your weight is just over the bottom bracket, you can move your hands and the bike underneath you without moving your weight around and loosing that balance. Also, the more the bike is leaned, the less steering you have to do for a given radius of turn and the better side knob engagement you will have for better traction. When turning tighter, that rearward weight bias and driving through the hips and feet while you pump the bike can help to overload the rear tire to force it to oversteer with a rear wheel slide. Combing that with pulling the front around the turn can really whip the bike around very quickly without the front pushing or washing out. Traction is limited, so I’d rather over load and exceed the traction on the rear wheel such that it pushes instead of the front wheel such that it pushes.
Henry’s technique of loading the outside foot and inside hand does not pair well with the RR stem since the RR stem will not turn in much when making that weight shift. This would lead to the front washing out because you are leaning in while stopping the bars from turning to match your lean. Arguably, loading the inside hand isn’t that good of a technique in general due to reducing bike body separation, reducing bike lean, and bringing your weight further towards the inside of the bike and away from your side knobs.
In general it seems to me that most of the issues expressed during Henry’s review come from trying to get over and on top of the bar and weighting the hands as some try to do on a traditional stem. This technique does not translate as well to the RR stem, and you need to accept that the bar is up high and you are behind it instead of trying to get up and over it anyway. This is also the reason for the increased fatigue when pedaling seated and loading the hands with bent arms and engaged core, and the instability on technical descents and when braking. When you are seated, you should be seated fairly upright with no weight on your hands and relaxed low bent elbows and shoulders instead of weighting your hands with bent arms trying to get on top of the bar. Adjustments to the seat position such as tilting the nose down more, and adjusting it further forward along with even scooting your butt forward help you to simply sit down on steeper climbs without feeling like you are falling back. The lack of load in your hands and matching your forward lean to the force of gravity will keep your arms and core relaxed. When braking hard you should also be driving your weight through your feet, and when riding stepped technical terrain you should be balanced over the bottom bracket using your arms as suspension to extend and compress to match the terrain with good bike body separation.
The techniques I’m talking about are exactly what many mtb coaches advise. I actually designed the stem to work best with those techniques to actually make doing them properly easier. Linked are numerous videos of pro riders and mtb coaches talking about exactly this. Keep your hands light, lean the bike, drive your weight through your feet and hips. Jeff Kendall Weed is a great example of an ex pro rider who corners exactly like how I have described including the extreme leaning, pumping, and pulling the bars. Some of the videos even show the riders taking their inside hand off mid turn or even both hands off mid turn further showing the weight in the feet. Even the coaches and pros that do recommend keeping some pressure in the bars for feel recommend loading the outside hand and really leaning the bike over actively suggesting that loading the inside hand leads to washing the front end.
Jeff Kendall Weed Cornering and Pumping:
m.ua-cam.com/video/4WnV4FwedJQ/v-deo.html
m.ua-cam.com/video/G91ShkNEpvs/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdSmVmZiBrZW5kYWxsIHdlZWQgc3dpdGNoYmFja3M%3D
m.ua-cam.com/video/nucG1gurWd4/v-deo.html&pp=ygUoSmVmZiBrZW5kYWxsIHdlZWQgZmxvd2luZyBkb3duIHRoZSB0cmFpbA%3D%3D
Lee Likes Bikes Cornering, Body Position, and How To Bike:
m.ua-cam.com/video/0XTGkV6UAIc/v-deo.html&pp=ygUdTXRiIGNvcm5lcmluZyBsZWUgbGlrZXMgYmlrZXM%3D
m.ua-cam.com/video/c2DUQeeAgNQ/v-deo.html&pp=ygUNbXRiIGhpcCBoaW5nZQ%3D%3D
m.ua-cam.com/video/-GAaheigvgg/v-deo.html
Mountain Bike Training Center Cornering and Body Position:
m.ua-cam.com/video/Z40-7tLb8Ro/v-deo.html&pp=ygUbTXRiIGNvcm5lcmluZyBmb290IHBvc2l0aW9u
m.ua-cam.com/video/_VSsgwfxx1E/v-deo.html
Mountain Bike Academy Cornering and Body Position:
m.ua-cam.com/video/9SB1_0s1ivk/v-deo.html
m.ua-cam.com/video/eMnSUq_g3ZQ/v-deo.html
Aaron Gwin Cornering:
m.ua-cam.com/video/z6xQDi4xCuM/v-deo.html
Mark Matthews Cornering:
m.ua-cam.com/video/LczwojA_Dfg/v-deo.html&pp=ygUVam95IG9mIGJpa2UgY29ybmVyaW5n
Children Of The Loam Roosting:
m.ua-cam.com/video/zbMTaRzxu9A/v-deo.html&pp=ygUQSG93IHRvIHJvb3N0IG10Yg%3D%3D
Finn Iles Shralping and Joel Hardwood Blueprint Athlete Development Outside Hand Pressure Cornering:
m.ua-cam.com/video/BT_Ntnlv0J8/v-deo.html
m.ua-cam.com/video/lJbOvl_Sup4/v-deo.html&pp=ygUrYmx1ZXByaW50IGF0aGxldGUgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgY29ybmVyaW5nIG10Yg%3D%3D
Paul The Punter and Kasper Woolley Outside Hand Pressure Cornering:
m.ua-cam.com/video/hJf4bQ1y1f0/v-deo.html&pp=ygUYa2FzcGVyIHdvb2xsZXkgY29ybmVyaW5n
11:10 "i was coming pretty steadily through there, not gonna say the B-word here" ... Is that aknowledgement ?
We have found peak geo, and it has really become a game of inches. I suspect we'll be seeing new "standards" soon. Since geo won't be a selling feature moving forward.
bmx handle bars also achieve the same thing that the RR does.
Three digs at Henry
How many more going to have a go
I do my climbing on a fire road or in a truck, so my only question is 'does it stomp'!
Loam Wolf set a PR and KOM on it, and the creator dropped seconds off his race times at Southridge. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but not insignificant either.
This may be good on a small bike for your body frame. Like a DJ
TLDR: I feel like your findings make a lot of sense for your riding style, and that riding style of weighting the hands and leaning with the bike are not the best way to ride the RR stem. With the right technique and bike setup, the advantages of the RR stem can come through as intended.
One of the things I have noticed is that the RR stem feels more sensitive to hand inputs steering, and less sensitive to body weight shifts side to side. So, where a long forward stem may seem slower to respond to hand inputs turning but flop to either side with small body weight shifts side to side, the RR stem will respond faster to the hand inputs while being less sensitive to your body shifts side to side. If you are used to weighting your inside hand by shifting your body in while cornering on a traditional forward stem, particularly one that's a bit longer, you would expect the front wheel to turn in as you lean in towards that hand, and to turn in further as you weight it more towards the end of a turn to bring you out of the turn, or when you need to turn tighter. With the RR stems Reversed offset, initially it will still turn in in a similar way, albeit more muted to your body shifts, when weighting that inside hand, but beyond a certain point of turning tighter, if you put more weight into that inside hand, it will either keep stable where it is and not react much, or even turn out a little. Cornering on two wheels is all about keeping a balance from having your weight falling towards the inside of a turn and making it stand back upright. To control this, we steer and counter steer. When you steer in, you start to stand up, and when you steer out, you start to fall in. If weighting your inside hand would make the front do nothing or try to turn out slightly at a certain point of turning tighter when you are expecting it to turn in more, the bike would fall into the turn more instead of standing up. This I believe is probably what you were feeling where the front end would feel like it would unweight and wash out. Essentially when you were expecting to drive the front end in, it would turn out slightly and make you fall in. This may have even led to a feedback loop of trying to lean into that hand harder to stabilize and force weight onto it more while actually leading to some of the opposite effect from what you were accustomed too. If that's the way you ride, then you can't just bring that style over to the RR stem and expect it to respond the same. You need to ride it how it responds to being ridden. It may not have been an issue with traction as much as you just not putting your weight through the tires in the way that you were expecting, and loosing your balance point. No amount of increased traction will help much with not loading the tires.
I'm not a fan of the technique of weighting the hands in general. This is particularly the case for the inside hand because it doesn't allow as much bike lean due to needing your body to be leaned over enough to put weight on that hand, and it can lead to the front jackknifing in when turning tighter. Along with that, if you lean your body inside too much while weighting into the front end, it can bring your weight too far over such that you have shifted your weight inside and off of your tires leading them to washing out. In times where the front loses traction unexpectedly, you are right there on it to go down with it. Putting too much weight pushing through the front can also overload the front tire making it push and wash out straight. An object in motion wants to stay in motion. Putting more weight into the front can make your tire dig in more, but it can also lead to greater resistance to changing direction, and pushing as it digs in deeper to loose dirt. When riding technical terrain, that weight on the hands can be more fatiguing on the arms since you are supporting yourself on them, and can make the bike feel like it is moving you more when your arms are braced leading to an unstable feeling like the bike is riding you.
In general, I recommend loading and pushing through the feet, and minimally weighting the hands, sometimes even pulling on the bars as you turn tighter while leaning the bike in a lot. The more a bike is leaned over, the tighter it will turn for a given rotation at the bars, and the better characteristics it will have in a slide with good side knob engagement. Along with that, with all of your weight balanced through your feet, your hands are free to be able to steer and counter steer as you please to control your balance through a turn and keep traction along with moving around and pushing and pulling as needed when the bike moves around underneath you in technical terrain. This helps you to get better bike body separation so that the bike doesn’t destabilize you as it kicks and bucks around. This is where the RR stem comes in. It's greater sensitivity to steering hand inputs gives finer control of this steering and counter steering while it's decreased tendency to flop to either side with different body weight shifts side to side reduces how much unintended front wheel wandering you get as you shift your body around. With your weight loading and pushing through your feet, you can drive the bike into the ground for traction, and even overload the rear to make it push as it digs in deeper to loose dirt while pulling around the front end to keep it from pushing. This can give a really nice carving feeling. In times where the front end unexpectedly loses traction, it slides out slower since you aren't actively pushing it which gives you more time to save a slide. This technique works really well with a traditional stem, and particularly well with the RR stem. Doing this technique helps the bike to be in the leaned over position it responds best too with good loading of your side knobs, and the RR stem makes getting the bike in that position easier. The Raised height even helps keep your arms bent more so you have room to extend and compress as you direct the bike around while the Reversed offset arcing out as you turn keeps you on the outside of the bike so you can lean the bike in more.
Your trouble cornering and riding technical terrain initially came as a surprise given that I feel the cornering and technical descending are some of the best attributes of the RR stem. I think it's mostly that it just didn't fit with your riding style. I understand that different riders have different riding styles, so if that's just how you ride, and you don't wish to change that, then the RR stem is probably just not for you. Probably same thing for other riders with a similar weighted hands and lean with the bike style. My goal is ultimately to make riders happier, so if a traditional setup works better for you and your riding style, then power to you. I do believe though that with the right technique and time to adapt, there are a lot of benefits to the RR stem for progressing your riding further. Riders who already have this type of technique will probably get on with the RR stem very well fairly quickly just as my customers and I have, numerous of whom have reported going substantially faster on trails they have been riding for years on their first rides. I know that I'm not going back to a traditional stem, and I have many customers who feel the same. Some of them even bought up to 3 stems to fit onto their other bikes because they loved it so much.
The issues expressed climbing I’d say can be remedied some by adjusting the seat position and adjusting technique. Tilting the nose of the saddle notably down, and scooting it forward on the rails or shifting your body forward on the seat can really help with not feeling like you need to hold yourself forward with your core so much. Your arms will be bent more, but your elbows and shoulders should be low and relaxed. You shouldn’t feel that you are needing to hold your self up and forward as much you talked about if you have your seat adjusted for the different position. When going around tight turns, pointing your outer knee in towards the stem greatly improves clearance to the bar, and if you run the RR stem a little taller for your above average height, the bar should largely go over your knee.
While I do believe that a long chainstay would be a great addition to the RR stem for my full geometry vision, and my ultimate goal is to make a full frame with my full geometry philosophy and the suspension designs I’ve been working on since 5th or 6th grade, I don't think that it is necessary with the right technique to be able to get good traction on the front end with the RR stem on a bike with a shorter chainstay. I've used it very happily extensively on a bike with a 462mm reach and 432mm chainstay, along with a 500mm reach and a 440mm chainstay. Both bikes cornered phenomenally with the RR stem, and the majority if not all of my customers are riding otherwise standard bikes with very typical chainstay lengths. That said, the disadvantage of decreased maneuverability with longer chainstays largely disappear with the RR stem, so you can just gain stability in rough terrain with them together. I tested this extensively also on a bike with a 462mm chainstay and a 462mm reach, and that was one of my favorite handling bikes. It had amazing stability and control without loosing anything in tighter corners because I could still whip it around with the RR stem.
I’m sure this stem would make it much easier to wheelie on every single climb 🤔
Dropper stems will be a thing one day
Is it supposed to be facing in that direction? Seems like turning it around would be more natural. You'd get similar results turning a standard stem in like that
TLDR : it's junk and it'll make you look like the biggest kook of the parking lot
Let me see if i can share a photo of my stem AND how i used like the stem this video It Is about
How can i load up a photo
Imagine how it feels on a Status with a 426 rear end…
As somebody famous once said, some videos just shouldn't be put on UA-cam. This is one of them.
I actually bought new front suspension. Just to have more stem height.
this raises your centre of gravity a significant amount, so, yea its a solution looking for a problem
Only if you are pressing hard on your hand, not when you're standing on your feet and not leaning into the handlebar.
So basically we’re moving towards undoing all the long low and slack bs we’ve been fed recently
It's almost like the designer of this races downhill
whats the test trail?
There are modern rigid mtb framed designed around the idea of a stem like this.
As recommended by goops chiropractor. Also, bmxs solve this problem with bars,
Or you could put really high chopper handlebars on the bike instead, it will be the same thing but look cool.
Can you try it turned 180 degrees (raised forward stem)?
Bmx figured this out a long time ago
BMX do not run 63-64* head angles, nor is concerned about grip or lean angles, among other factors.
@@laurynasjagelo5075 - I ride a 150 mm BMX cruiser bar on a Spot Rocker large SS, and it’s all advantage. There is no disadvantage, but do go on.
lets goooo bronson
They should make one that isn't as high. That just seems too extreme. I'll stick with my 60mm rise Spank bar for now.
…at least he didn’t say the B word.
Im angry with all the "hate" around the idea. This review is a desaster. You really should make a part 2 and compare a real dirtbike ergo to a mtb ergo. The main reason this guy developped this stem is to get a dirtbike feel. I really would like to see a custom fabricator jump in and finally make a dirtbike ergo frame on a mtb for once and ever so we know if its good or bad. Thanks.
I would love if Henry did a part 2 where he used the RR stem with the techniques and bike setup that I designed it for, and actually talked to me about the issues he experienced and how to get around them during the time of testing. Most of the issues here seem to be from trying to ride the RR stem in the same way that he rides his traditional stem using arguably poor technique. The RR (Raised Reversed) stems position is very similar to a dirt bike both in stack and reach feet to hands and having your hands behind the steering axis. It’s interesting to me how similar they are considering the RR stem was not inspired by or designed to emulate the position of a dirt bike. I don’t even ride dirt bikes. The RR stem was developed over more than 3 years testing anything from below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem you now see, and anything from 70mm forward to -70mm Reversed always benchmarking against the traditional 50mm - 35mm stem. The RR stem that you see here is the culmination of all that testing to find the best Enduro mtb stem geometry.
Many mtb coaches recommend supporting all of your body weight through your feet and being balanced over the bottom bracket with minimal weight in your hands and good bend in your arms when riding in the attack position. The attack position originated in MX as a strong stable stance that lets the bike move underneath you with good bike body separation, good mobility, and gives good control and confidence. That same attack position can now be used properly on an mtb with the RR stem. If you are balanced over the bottom bracket, then your arms can be properly bent and loose to allow good mobility and the bike can kind of teeter up and down around the bottom bracket underneath you.
My goal ultimately is to be releasing a DH/Enduro gearbox frame using my suspension design and my full geometry philosophy. The RR stem is a big part of that geometry philosophy for where I believe the future of mtbs will go. I believe that in the future, bikes will have much taller head tubes, with a then much shorter height still Reversed offset stem sat atop and longer chainstays. The RR stem allows you to get some of that geometry of the future with the bike you have now. It both does and has worked very well for both me and my customers as a direct add on to otherwise standard geometry frames given the right technique and bike setup. I’m 5’8” and currently use the RR stem on a Trek Slash 29 M/L. I use that bike to race DH and Enduro.
Dirt bike ergo? 😂 Don’t forget the motor, because pedalling efficiently such a weird contraption won’t be fun. 😉
i've been seeing reviews pop up from time to time, and it has sparked some interesting conversation. in my opinion, if you are adding parts to your bike that drastically change the geo... then maybe you have the wrong bike. if you say it really helps your descending, then maybe consider a downhill bike... or maybe this is a good hack to get around buying a dh. 2 cents
This def seems way too high. I have a decently high stack and riser bar, but just low enough to still allow for tech climbing and good body positioning all around. I like the reasonably higher bar for comfort as well as balance
If you really want to try this stem pinkbike just showed you a much much cheaper way of doing it, just buy some high rise bars and face your stem backwards, same result.
hail return of uturn from rock shox...
Taller rise bar, or even a lowish but wide BMX cruiser bar would do the same thing. You might want to angle your rise with your forks though, you dont have to have your rise straight up and down as you seemed to setup most those bar variations. If you've ridden BMX you'd know how drastically different bar height and bar angle play a role in the entire ride. Too far forward "Chicago style" which really can be straight up and down, causes the steering to get twitchy, but some riders like the change in pop it gives them, like Dan Kruk.
For the most part, keeping it in line with the fork blade offset is going to give you the best control. It was really odd to see you do those setups with the riser bars and have the rise portion very "Chicago'd" compared to the fork angle. I'm sure if you had them inline with the fork you'd eventually get the same location as that god aweful looking stem, you could even angle the bars back a little but I wouldnt, a similar effect occurs with making them not inline with the forks. Either way, I dont see this stem catching on whatsoever, you can achieve the same geometry with a tall enough riser bar and angle, this looks like an Ali Express item that Sam Pilgram would test and destroy while simultaneously calling it Epic as he does everything he breaks.
BMX handlebars. Done.
Perhaps throw this stem on the grim donut and see what happens?????!???? It'd be interesting to see how that tall stem would behave on a bike with about 4"-6" more reach.......where it would essentially recreate the riding position one has for a motocross bike (which is how Dakota Norton sets up his downhill bike handlebar). A stretched out front triangle would not create the cramped climbing / tight trail issues when mounted on a normal bike like the Transition. So close.....they'll figure it out eventually. Perhaps throw this stem on the grim donut and see what happens?????!????
I'd try it. I mean, if there was a demo stem at my local shop of choice and I could take it for a 1 hr loop. Bit of a leap of faith to just order up and hope for the best ...
Problem with the demo is you’d probably need to re-cable at least a bit
@@dtacto Often times you can run your rear brake hose, shifter cable, and dropper cable behind the RR stem for a shorter path if it can’t reach going around the front side. The front brake is either long enough or not long enough though, and there isn’t any workaround for that other than making it longer if it’s too short. Often times the front brake hose is still long enough as it was on the bike before the RR stem, but sometimes you will need to make that one longer. There is a way to test if your front brake is long enough before actually installing the stem if you are interested.
The key here was missed, the stem has a negative length and obviously can be lower than that. Second a bike needs to be designed around it, would need a chainstay of at least 450mm and and a longer reach
That’s actually why I call them Raised Reversed stems. This is the Raised version of my Reversed stem philosophy. A shorter still Reversed offset version is in the works for the riders around 5’4” and less who are too short for the current RR stem, and riders who just prefer it lower. The Reversed offset improves and calms the steering dynamics. Since it arcs out instead of in when turning relative to the frame, it allows the rider to position themselves on the outside of the bike when cornering to load their side knobs properly while also leaning the bike in further for a kinematically tighter turn. At the extremes of turning angles, the Reversed offset helps reduce the likelihood of having the front jackknife such that you can keep turning tighter. The hand to front axle position parallels a 59 degree headtube angle for ultimate confidence in steep terrain, with a steering feel that is less floppy and more direct than the stock headtube angle of the bike with a traditional stem. These help the rider corner much better with improved feel of the front end, keep better balance in loose terrain, and feel more confident in steep terrain.
I would love if Henry did a part 2 where he used the RR stem with the techniques and bike setup that I designed it for, and actually talked to me about the issues he experienced and how to get around them during the time of testing. Most of the issues here seem to be from trying to ride the RR stem in the same way that he rides his traditional stem using arguably poor technique like weighting the inside hand and not leaning the bike as much when cornering and trying to get up and over the bars instead of just accepting that they are tall and getting low behind them with all of his weight going through the bottom bracket. Many mtb coaches recommend supporting all of your body weight through your feet and being balanced over the bottom bracket with minimal weight in your hands and good bend in your arms when riding in the attack position and when cornering where you have too really lean the bike over. The attack position originated in MX as a strong stable stance that lets the bike move underneath you with good bike body separation, good mobility, and gives good control and confidence. The RR stem through its independent testing process experimenting with anything from 70mm forward offset to -70mm Reversed offset, and below traditional height to about 80mm taller than the RR stem here always benchmarking against traditional 50mm - 35mm stems for over 3 years ended up putting the riders hands in a position practically identical to a dirt bike both in Stack and Reach feet to hands and having the riders hands behind the steering axis. That same attack position can now be used properly on an mtb with the RR stem. If you are balanced over the bottom bracket, then your arms can be properly bent and loose to allow good mobility and the bike can kind of teeter up and down around the bottom bracket underneath you.
My goal ultimately is to be releasing a DH/Enduro gearbox frame using my suspension design and my full geometry philosophy. The RR stem is a big part of that geometry philosophy for where I believe the future of mtbs will go. I believe that in the future, bikes will have much taller head tubes, with a then much shorter height still Reversed offset stem sat atop and longer chainstays. The RR stem allows you to get some of that geometry of the future with the bike you have now. It both does and has worked very well for both me and my customers as a direct add on to otherwise standard geometry frames given the right technique and bike setup. I’m 5’8” and currently use the RR stem on a Trek Slash 29 M/L. I use that bike to race DH and Enduro.
It’s simple leverage why you can lift the front wheel easier with a higher bar not some scooping bs lol
you should have saved this video for April 1.
It looks horrendous and is ridiculously expensive! What's not to like?