We are missing ONE thing: A way to prolong Bless/Bane/Benediction/Malediction beyond 1 minute. Step 1: Orc Battleharbinger Step 2: all Orc party Step 3: WAAAAAAAAAGH
Seems like Empowered Onslaught was made as a reaction to balance it a little. Cause afaik, you don't get any new class feats that grant you an additional reaction to only do something like Fighters or Champions do. So if you use it, no reactions until your next turn. So it's basically a big gamble to further debuff your enemies. But it doesn't change the fact that this class archetype effectively makes YOU the boss battle. I find it to be pretty cool, and might even give me an excuse to play a Cleric for once. Idk, guess we'll see.
It feels so weird that they didn't allow clerics to use Deity's favoured ability as a choice for key ability. Especially for battle harbinger, you have 1str/dex less than it's direct comparsion magus. It's also so weird to have a separate metric for each deity that ONLY matters for 1 background.
@@The_Yukki why would you say that? There are now almost 30 classes in pf2e. And war priest is not even a popular one. So assuming there is one in every party is not reasonable.
Personally, I'd actually homebrew that so you in fact can get your diety's favourite ability score if it's strength or dexterity for harbinger. It just makes sense for me
Been looking for a video on Battle Harbinger for awhile as I wanted to make one as a backup GMPC for if any players have to leave sessions early in Prey for Death, gods this looks siiiiick thanks for uploading
Paizo keeps taking baby steps in the right direction but refuses to just commit to the concept people want by refusing to follow their own precedent design budgets. In particular, the Battle Harbinger's biggest issues are that they've taken baseline wave caster features and turned them into feats and that they've forced the playstyle to be bound to L1 spells that don't scale well or have supporting action compression. The design seems to assume you have 4 actions in rounds 1 and 2 to get out 2 auras, which I think is pretty unreasonable with how it is designed now (that gives you 1 action to stride into melee and 1 action to strike in 2 rounds). The L12 feat people talk about (Empowered Onslaught) to increase aura bonuses is unreliable and the trigger is more limiting than you're assuming. The trigger requires the use of the L4 feat tandem onslaught since that is the only way to crit AND sustain as simultaneous event to trigger the reaction (note critting then spending an action to sustain doesn't actually satisfy the trigger as worded because the trigger event isn't happening if you just 'sustain' after a crit). Tandem onslaught only works on the first hit in the round you do damage so if you hit on your 0MAP strike (but not crit) you're locked out of the L12 reaction for the rest of the round (even if you crit on your MAP-5/-10 strikes) since you can't use tandem onslaught anymore. You should expect the event trigger to happen one time every two combats vs. on level enemies (you can augment that somewhat via alchemical items, flatfooted, going after mooks, having early combat party debuffs or buffs, casting sure strike before taking your first strike, etc.). But realistically the runaway train people are imagining is highly unlikely to happen and so this L12 feat is getting oversold. For me the following errata is needed to make it functional: 1.) Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization at L7, Greater Weapon Specialization at L15. This is a design budget baseline for wave casters they just missed. 2.) Harbinger Armament: This is here to compensate for the non-STR/DEX KAS. This feat should come online at L3 as a class feature, like champion, and provide a L10 feat option to expand your selection (same as the champion). The L16 feat version can be remade with the upgraded damage rune options. This is design budget baseline turned into a late stage feat chain. 3.) Dedication L1/L2 Class Feat Chain Integration: The class is missing a L1 and L2 class feat (similar to other martials). The dedication should give domain initiate and emblazon armament to give a martial chassis equivalent side-grade and allow seamless integration with class feat trees. Let people take general feats with there general feats. This was a miss on what people wanted because they wanted a divine wave caster that gets access to cleric feats at the same rate (but you don't get that because its so feat tax heavy and you're forced to lose your L1/L2 feat to start of key feat chains). Ultimately this is design budget baseline miss vs. other wave casters who have a L1/L2 class feat. 4.) Creed Magic: Should be a class feature that comes online at the same levels as the magus studious spells. This is a design budget baseline they turned into a late stage feat. 5.) Deities Favored Weapon: Decouple weapon proficiency scaling from your Deities favored weapon. Its too limiting for the 'martial forward cleric to use singular weapon options. Martials need backup weapons for ranged combat, damage versatility, etc. Limiting them to favored weapons destroys narrative build diversity due to a need for 'domain'/mechanical weapon selections. Instead give proficiency in the weapon if its advanced and give a boost/bonus incentive to use that weapon (i.e., use the carrot not the stick) like 2 extra spirit damage or similar. There are already feats like replenishment of war that require it. 6.) Action Compression: There needs to be a mechanical benefit to casting the 4 spells that alleviates the large action taxes required. Just make casting them off the font cost 1 action and now its on par with a Marshal stance/inspire courage action economy and makes it realistic that you could get 2 out in a combat. This is design budget baseline they just missed that magus and summoner get via spell strike or tandem actions. 7.) Font Spells: Font should let you cast all 4 spells. The L4 feat (aura enhancement) is a feel bad feat tax. People want to stack auras and hiding the spells that synergize behind a feat tax doesn't serve any purpose that to use up yet another feat. Optional Errata A.) Syncretism: Reword it to address the new cleric doctrine. B.) Spell Scaling: Provide some level of scaling for bless, bane, etc. that aren't tied to feats. A +1 status bonus to attack is very common (bard, marshal inspiring stance, exemplar victory wreath, etc,). If they had action compression to 1 action I think it could mitigate scaling, but the opportunity cost of casting these spells is not great as you go up in level. C.) Modified Spell List: There are some spells that could just be added to the divine list like sure strike/haste that would be beneficial. Probably should clarify that the creed spells are part of your cleric spell list from L1. Good Stuff: I) Class DC scaling is actually really fun to play with. Tengu with the feather fan can be casting cantrips/ancestry spells off your class DC is my favourite. But talos have a great L5 reaction, kobold/dragonblood have their breaths, etc. is a big list of Class DC features that are awesome to use with this feature. II) If you're playing free archetype most of the issues above go away because you can spend your feats to buy back all the design baseline features and have that divine gish baseline chassis that people wanted in the first place. NOTE: I'd pick acrobatics because I'm more prone to pick dexterity builds (thrown + returning rune, or a bow). Acrobatics with acrobatic performer can net you a CHA skill even if you have dumped CHA.
You can at least grab Syncretism to snag a second favoured weapon and some fun Edict/Anathema mixing. Little costly a class feat for maybe but its an option and not too bad for human ancestry. 100% easier to just choose a deity that suits better especially because you wont really be using the focus spells or granted spells (outside of the usual martial-friendly buffs). If you really want to be able to tell people that yeah sure, you're a follower of Folgrit and all about that community and home and taking care of kids... But Angradd has a point that a great-axe would be great for home defense.
"You can prepare only bane or only bless ..." would be specific. Since the phrase lacks the second 'only' then one is lead to assume a battle harbinger can use these slots to prepare any mix of bane and bless, but no other spells.
Language is just not that cut and dry, unfortunately. That would make it explicit, but the lack of that second 'only' does not make it explicit that a mix is allowed... just that it is not explicitly disallowed. It can be used as a piece of evidence to infer the designer's intent - but it is not conclusive.
On a fun re-read: most specific familiars' combat abilities are the better of your class DC or spell DC. Battle Harbinger Cleric has the best class DC progression as far as I can tell, (1/5/15/19). Kineticist is 1/7/15/19 and Thaumaturge is 1/9/17. So, a Battle Harbinger Cleric picking up Rivethun Emissary and then Emissary Familiar can grab a Fey Dragonet and have Expert level Dragon Breath Slow. A Witch can pick up a Fey Dragonet at lvl. 2, but the familiar doesn't get Expert DC until lvl. 7. Probably only worth it in a FA game where you can grab your specific familiar at lvl. 4. On the other hand, it doesn't have the Undying feature. Going Animist Archetype and grabbing Spirit Familiar would help since you gain the Animist's version of Undying for your familiar, but you'd still need to dip into Familiar Master to gain Improved Familiar and also gain Incredible Familiar at a decent level (you can only get it at lvl. 20 with Animist Archetype).
Played around with this in Pathbuilder and these are my intital build notes: Use a large PC if possible, otherwise, this class is an excellent candidate for enlarge support. Reach and thrown weapons seem to be the optimal weapon choices, they let you keep a little distance from particulary dangerous foes while letting your auras do their work. Getting into full melee without a shield can get very dicy unless you have both bendiction & bane up as your armour and saving throw progession are both poor to martial standards. Your archetype feats are generally a better fit you than the base Cleric feats but "Replenishment of War" is a notable exeption. This is not a 1st class combat healer the way clerics usually are, you CAN pack heal in all 4 spell slots but you are far better off packing 1 in case the party's dedicated healer gets into trouble. Free archetype notes: Reach weapon builds can take the dedication as the level 2 class feat and Vicious Swing as the level 2 free archetype feat. (Love it when PIazo proivde class archetypes with level 2 feats as it makes free archetype so much cleaner). This allows you to take both "Tandem onslaught" and "Aura Enhancement" @ lvl 4 and then "Bespell strikes" and a dedication feat of your choice @ lvl 6 (I recomend sentinel). Deities are limited here but Calistria, Soloc and Sun Wukong are all solid choices. (Shelyn's weapon is decent but dosent quite fit the class's aggresive play style) Thrown weapon builds don't have as clean start as Vicoious swing isnt nearly as useful to you but there are 2 reasonable compromises that are GM dependant: Allow a 2nd dedication to be taken in the free archetype slot (rogue is the usual excellent go to) Allow the class archetype dedication to go in the free archetype slot and take a regular level 1/2 class feat alongside it. (Domain initiate could potentialy be a great pick up here) There are A LOT of dieties to pick from here, the first I thought of were Gozreh, Pharasma, Arqueros, Brigh, Kurgess and Grandmother Spider but there are many, many more.
Don’t forget that clerics have the Channel Smite feat available. So if you want the Battle Harbinger to feel more like a Magus you can take that and build around Harm spells. It also doesn’t have to be recharged like spellstrike. A buff build is probably better, but you could still do nova damage for a couple turns if you build for it
the battle harbinger being based around bless and bane is a really cool choice, really leaning into the style many warclerics already went for - and with the remaster massively increasing the range of both of these spells from 5ft to 10ft (bane) and 15ft (bless), further increasing in 10ft increments rather than mere 5 I can honestly see this class becoming one of my favorite melee concepts in this game, that already offers the highest variety in play style options. Really like how they approached the concept of a class archetype in this one and I hope they play around more with core mechanics of a class for their next archetypes - seeing how they handled the battle harbinger I can't help but feel like some other class archetypes like vindicator or slayer could've pushed the envelope way further. I mean those two for example play way more along the lines of a basic subclass compared to this here, and while a subclass is always a welcome addition I feel like going the way of an archetype opens up the design space to pinpoint the specific class fantasy you're trying to sell. Just imagine if spellshot was designed after this book came out, so much potential there.
I really love the idea of this class archetype. A cleric-like wave caster with martial proficiency seems awesome. My concern with this class is that I think spending two actions on turn one of every fight just casting bless/bane/benediction/malediction is going to get boring. At the end of the day, this class has some tension because you have some strong high-rank divine spells, but most of your feats encourage you to spend actions on first rank spells. I feel like the class should be able to cast Battle Font spells with better action economy OR have more effects ride on these spells to really solidify the Battle Harbingers' identity as the aura-martial. Here's an idea I have that I think makes the class a bit more exciting: Fortifying Aura - Class Feat 6 Prerequisite: Battle Harbinger Doctrine The first time you cast or sustain a Battle Font spell each turn, you and allies within the emanation gain temporary hit points equal to twice the spell's rank until the beginning of your next turn. Withering Aura - Class Feat 6 Prerequisite: Battle Harbinger Doctrine The first time you cast or sustain a Battle Font spell each turn, enemies within the emanation take spirit damage equal to twice the spell's rank, with a basic fortitude save against your Class DC.
Battle harbinger could make a very interesting knife fighterm daggers going to 1d6 and getting crip spec, plus being able to riasenhit chances and lower enemy AC......
Poor Oloch will drop that sword when he get to level 13 because for some baffling reason they decided to only give them Master Prof with their deity weapon, which is that punny Bladed Gauntlet.
We asked for Divine Magus, they gave us the bard from wish...Stuck doing the same buffing and postioning chires that make pf2e combat so boring and frankly awful
For the Spellstrike potential cant you use harm spells with attacks thx to Channel Smite? Edit: now that i think about It, there is not a feat that allows you to prepare "both heal and harm spells if the deity allows It" that would add those tò "Bane", "bless", "malediction" and "benediction"? Should work with the " worship" 2 Gods feat
I’d be willing to try Battle Harbinger. I play a Faith’s Flamekeeper Witch in Abomination Vaults and thanks to a Staff of Providence + sacrificing one of my highest spell slots to prepare the staff with extra charges + being a Nephilim with Extraplanar Supplication, half my PC’s gameplay is literally just casting Bless every combat
I think I like both types of Class Archetypes, the ones that just slightly alter a class, AND the ones that basically make a whole new class! I hate the term Obvious. I think it's either/or, and if you get the feat that gives you the other two, than it's any of them. I can really see running Bless and Malediction to give massive bonuses to hit and crit to all your melee. I think I would skip Exigent Auras, and just go with Bless and Benediction vs mindless creatures. This may be the only time I've wanted more feats than there are feat slots!
Look, I'm sorry. Grammatically what is stated is explicitly clear. Now if you want to argue that they didn't mean what they wrote, that's fine, but RAW by the nature of the english language either spell is a valid preparation for any given slot. It makes it clear that this is a restriction on these slots, and it is the only restriction plzced on them. You can have a mix of bane and bless if you so choose. It's made further clear when you add the other 2 spells and you add them to the list of spells you can prepare in your battle font. I know people try to read more into what's said, but what they wrote is crystal clear.
BH is kinda lame, you give up multiple upcasted Heal for upcasted bless etc which is practically same as rank 1 bless. You also cannot take any of the feats that need a heal/harm font. And in return you get to be a lame divine not-magus coz you cannot spellstrike or use the font for channelsmites
The way to look at the upcast for bless/bane (and benediction/malediction if you take the feat) is to look at the feats given by the archetype as "upcast x.5".
Lol, it sounds like you don't like the idea that a great martial character can't also be a spellcaster 😂 The Battle Harbinger is an offensive Cleric. If you want to be good at healing, don't be a Harbinger. Its like you're saying the Wizard isn't good because it doesn’t have healing spells. Like, what? 😆
@@blobjorn3248 "great martial character can't also be a spellcaster" Magus is right here, so is summoner (though that one does whack sharing thing). Or hell, any martial with a spellcasting archetype, which this essentially is.
@The_Yukki The magus is a high risk "spellcaster". If you miss one attack you waste your turn and need about 2 turns of setup to attempt it again. The only spells they are really good at are attack spells, which really limits their versatility. The Battle Harbinger is built around auras. Like the video showed, there's a good chance you can get an effective +4 to attack rolls (or higher) while also providing a good benefit to the rest of your group. The Battle Harbinger can get feats like Channel Smite, Restorative Strike, etc. to "spellstrike" if they want. Also, and Magus doesn't have reliable healing, for themselves or others. A Battle Harbinger does. People really need to get rid of the "bIg NuMbEr BeTtEr" mentality.
@@blobjorn3248 Does harbringer have 'reliable healing' with their 4 slots, that they'll probably even more auras into? (cause from the top of my head you only get 4 font slots). Their only 'reliable healing' is gonna be battle medicine and it's gonna be as reliable as any other clerics (or any wisdom character really, though -1 on a non-wisdom key isn't that big of a deal since you want assurance for medicine anyway), and even that's reliant on them having a 1handed (or i guess 1+) weapon which cuts into their damage further. The effective +4 to attack rolls requires 2 turns setup, that's the most important part of a fight gone for your setup (works great if you're prebuffing though. Also that's what I think living the creed's for 1 turn both auras for 3 actions + maybe some extra action if you're hasted. Still a bleak thing to wait to lvl 20 to not require 2 turns setup.)
The biggest problem I find with BH is that it doesn't do enough natively as a CA. The illusion of choice is real, as if you don't take the feats offered to BHs, you end up being a weaker Warpriest, or a glorified Champion that took a divine spellcasting dedication that doesn't scale to an impactful degree.
The benefit of the system is you can mix and match feats for your class. You can build many classes different ways. If you exclusively take only feats from the archetype, you're throwing away that perk of the system. Even if you were using FA, there's an argument to take both options offered at each even level (except for 20th, obviously).
Since you are not going to listen to criticism of the class Archetype I guess there is no point saying why I am somewhat disappointed with Battle Harbinger. On the Athletics vs Acrobatics at Level 2 you may already have Athletics Training. Acrobatics is good for Kip Up later
I would argue that the Bloodrager is another example of a well designed class archetype, and that Vindicator and Warrior of Legend are solid runner-ups. I think Bloodrager is actually superior in that it appeals to different character ideas; Battle Harbinger is definitely a significant playstyle difference, but in terms of character concepts it has a lot of overlap with Battle Priest and Champion.
@@Ghost.in.the.Machine Agreed. I think a lot of folks are letting their emotions and personal vision cloud the facts. I’ve seen some folks say the BH is worthless because it isn’t Magus with the Divine spell list. They seem to forget that these are class ARCHETYPES not a CLASS. And if you wanted a Divine Magus class archetype, it would be for the Magus class not a Cleric class.
Class Archetypes that change basic proficiency progressions are exactly something I wanted for quite some time!
We are missing ONE thing: A way to prolong Bless/Bane/Benediction/Malediction beyond 1 minute.
Step 1: Orc Battleharbinger
Step 2: all Orc party
Step 3: WAAAAAAAAAGH
Not sure what I'm missing here... What do you gain from Orc? (Other than it would look freaking awesome of course)
Battle Harbinger of Hei Feng: FUCK IT, WE BALL
We need errata saying you can go straight from this to Red Mantis if you worship Akachek
Seems like Empowered Onslaught was made as a reaction to balance it a little. Cause afaik, you don't get any new class feats that grant you an additional reaction to only do something like Fighters or Champions do. So if you use it, no reactions until your next turn. So it's basically a big gamble to further debuff your enemies. But it doesn't change the fact that this class archetype effectively makes YOU the boss battle. I find it to be pretty cool, and might even give me an excuse to play a Cleric for once. Idk, guess we'll see.
It feels so weird that they didn't allow clerics to use Deity's favoured ability as a choice for key ability. Especially for battle harbinger, you have 1str/dex less than it's direct comparsion magus.
It's also so weird to have a separate metric for each deity that ONLY matters for 1 background.
Magus doesn't have bless, Bane, benediction and maladiction.
@@Sumting-r7rbut they will likely have a warpriest next to them throwing those out.
@@The_Yukki why would you say that? There are now almost 30 classes in pf2e. And war priest is not even a popular one. So assuming there is one in every party is not reasonable.
Personally, I'd actually homebrew that so you in fact can get your diety's favourite ability score if it's strength or dexterity for harbinger. It just makes sense for me
@@Sumting-r7r I guess ppl be sleeping on warpriest. But aight, anything with divine spell list will fill that.
So many good things are coming out for my favorite pass time- building random characters
Been looking for a video on Battle Harbinger for awhile as I wanted to make one as a backup GMPC for if any players have to leave sessions early in Prey for Death, gods this looks siiiiick thanks for uploading
Paizo keeps taking baby steps in the right direction but refuses to just commit to the concept people want by refusing to follow their own precedent design budgets. In particular, the Battle Harbinger's biggest issues are that they've taken baseline wave caster features and turned them into feats and that they've forced the playstyle to be bound to L1 spells that don't scale well or have supporting action compression. The design seems to assume you have 4 actions in rounds 1 and 2 to get out 2 auras, which I think is pretty unreasonable with how it is designed now (that gives you 1 action to stride into melee and 1 action to strike in 2 rounds).
The L12 feat people talk about (Empowered Onslaught) to increase aura bonuses is unreliable and the trigger is more limiting than you're assuming. The trigger requires the use of the L4 feat tandem onslaught since that is the only way to crit AND sustain as simultaneous event to trigger the reaction (note critting then spending an action to sustain doesn't actually satisfy the trigger as worded because the trigger event isn't happening if you just 'sustain' after a crit). Tandem onslaught only works on the first hit in the round you do damage so if you hit on your 0MAP strike (but not crit) you're locked out of the L12 reaction for the rest of the round (even if you crit on your MAP-5/-10 strikes) since you can't use tandem onslaught anymore. You should expect the event trigger to happen one time every two combats vs. on level enemies (you can augment that somewhat via alchemical items, flatfooted, going after mooks, having early combat party debuffs or buffs, casting sure strike before taking your first strike, etc.). But realistically the runaway train people are imagining is highly unlikely to happen and so this L12 feat is getting oversold.
For me the following errata is needed to make it functional:
1.) Weapon Specialization: Weapon Specialization at L7, Greater Weapon Specialization at L15. This is a design budget baseline for wave casters they just missed.
2.) Harbinger Armament: This is here to compensate for the non-STR/DEX KAS. This feat should come online at L3 as a class feature, like champion, and provide a L10 feat option to expand your selection (same as the champion). The L16 feat version can be remade with the upgraded damage rune options. This is design budget baseline turned into a late stage feat chain.
3.) Dedication L1/L2 Class Feat Chain Integration: The class is missing a L1 and L2 class feat (similar to other martials). The dedication should give domain initiate and emblazon armament to give a martial chassis equivalent side-grade and allow seamless integration with class feat trees. Let people take general feats with there general feats. This was a miss on what people wanted because they wanted a divine wave caster that gets access to cleric feats at the same rate (but you don't get that because its so feat tax heavy and you're forced to lose your L1/L2 feat to start of key feat chains). Ultimately this is design budget baseline miss vs. other wave casters who have a L1/L2 class feat.
4.) Creed Magic: Should be a class feature that comes online at the same levels as the magus studious spells. This is a design budget baseline they turned into a late stage feat.
5.) Deities Favored Weapon: Decouple weapon proficiency scaling from your Deities favored weapon. Its too limiting for the 'martial forward cleric to use singular weapon options. Martials need backup weapons for ranged combat, damage versatility, etc. Limiting them to favored weapons destroys narrative build diversity due to a need for 'domain'/mechanical weapon selections. Instead give proficiency in the weapon if its advanced and give a boost/bonus incentive to use that weapon (i.e., use the carrot not the stick) like 2 extra spirit damage or similar. There are already feats like replenishment of war that require it.
6.) Action Compression: There needs to be a mechanical benefit to casting the 4 spells that alleviates the large action taxes required. Just make casting them off the font cost 1 action and now its on par with a Marshal stance/inspire courage action economy and makes it realistic that you could get 2 out in a combat. This is design budget baseline they just missed that magus and summoner get via spell strike or tandem actions.
7.) Font Spells: Font should let you cast all 4 spells. The L4 feat (aura enhancement) is a feel bad feat tax. People want to stack auras and hiding the spells that synergize behind a feat tax doesn't serve any purpose that to use up yet another feat.
Optional Errata
A.) Syncretism: Reword it to address the new cleric doctrine.
B.) Spell Scaling: Provide some level of scaling for bless, bane, etc. that aren't tied to feats. A +1 status bonus to attack is very common (bard, marshal inspiring stance, exemplar victory wreath, etc,). If they had action compression to 1 action I think it could mitigate scaling, but the opportunity cost of casting these spells is not great as you go up in level.
C.) Modified Spell List: There are some spells that could just be added to the divine list like sure strike/haste that would be beneficial. Probably should clarify that the creed spells are part of your cleric spell list from L1.
Good Stuff:
I) Class DC scaling is actually really fun to play with. Tengu with the feather fan can be casting cantrips/ancestry spells off your class DC is my favourite. But talos have a great L5 reaction, kobold/dragonblood have their breaths, etc. is a big list of Class DC features that are awesome to use with this feature.
II) If you're playing free archetype most of the issues above go away because you can spend your feats to buy back all the design baseline features and have that divine gish baseline chassis that people wanted in the first place.
NOTE: I'd pick acrobatics because I'm more prone to pick dexterity builds (thrown + returning rune, or a bow). Acrobatics with acrobatic performer can net you a CHA skill even if you have dumped CHA.
You can at least grab Syncretism to snag a second favoured weapon and some fun Edict/Anathema mixing. Little costly a class feat for maybe but its an option and not too bad for human ancestry. 100% easier to just choose a deity that suits better especially because you wont really be using the focus spells or granted spells (outside of the usual martial-friendly buffs). If you really want to be able to tell people that yeah sure, you're a follower of Folgrit and all about that community and home and taking care of kids... But Angradd has a point that a great-axe would be great for home defense.
"You can prepare only bane or only bless ..." would be specific.
Since the phrase lacks the second 'only' then one is lead to assume a battle harbinger can use these slots to prepare any mix of bane and bless, but no other spells.
Language is just not that cut and dry, unfortunately. That would make it explicit, but the lack of that second 'only' does not make it explicit that a mix is allowed... just that it is not explicitly disallowed.
It can be used as a piece of evidence to infer the designer's intent - but it is not conclusive.
On a fun re-read: most specific familiars' combat abilities are the better of your class DC or spell DC. Battle Harbinger Cleric has the best class DC progression as far as I can tell, (1/5/15/19). Kineticist is 1/7/15/19 and Thaumaturge is 1/9/17.
So, a Battle Harbinger Cleric picking up Rivethun Emissary and then Emissary Familiar can grab a Fey Dragonet and have Expert level Dragon Breath Slow. A Witch can pick up a Fey Dragonet at lvl. 2, but the familiar doesn't get Expert DC until lvl. 7.
Probably only worth it in a FA game where you can grab your specific familiar at lvl. 4. On the other hand, it doesn't have the Undying feature. Going Animist Archetype and grabbing Spirit Familiar would help since you gain the Animist's version of Undying for your familiar, but you'd still need to dip into Familiar Master to gain Improved Familiar and also gain Incredible Familiar at a decent level (you can only get it at lvl. 20 with Animist Archetype).
Played around with this in Pathbuilder and these are my intital build notes:
Use a large PC if possible, otherwise, this class is an excellent candidate for enlarge support.
Reach and thrown weapons seem to be the optimal weapon choices, they let you keep a little distance from particulary dangerous foes while letting your auras do their work.
Getting into full melee without a shield can get very dicy unless you have both bendiction & bane up as your armour and saving throw progession are both poor to martial standards.
Your archetype feats are generally a better fit you than the base Cleric feats but "Replenishment of War" is a notable exeption.
This is not a 1st class combat healer the way clerics usually are, you CAN pack heal in all 4 spell slots but you are far better off packing 1 in case the party's dedicated healer gets into trouble.
Free archetype notes:
Reach weapon builds can take the dedication as the level 2 class feat and Vicious Swing as the level 2 free archetype feat. (Love it when PIazo proivde class archetypes with level 2 feats as it makes free archetype so much cleaner). This allows you to take both "Tandem onslaught" and "Aura Enhancement" @ lvl 4 and then "Bespell strikes" and a dedication feat of your choice @ lvl 6 (I recomend sentinel).
Deities are limited here but Calistria, Soloc and Sun Wukong are all solid choices. (Shelyn's weapon is decent but dosent quite fit the class's aggresive play style)
Thrown weapon builds don't have as clean start as Vicoious swing isnt nearly as useful to you but there are 2 reasonable compromises that are GM dependant:
Allow a 2nd dedication to be taken in the free archetype slot (rogue is the usual excellent go to)
Allow the class archetype dedication to go in the free archetype slot and take a regular level 1/2 class feat alongside it. (Domain initiate could potentialy be a great pick up here)
There are A LOT of dieties to pick from here, the first I thought of were Gozreh, Pharasma, Arqueros, Brigh, Kurgess and Grandmother Spider but there are many, many more.
Don’t forget that clerics have the Channel Smite feat available. So if you want the Battle Harbinger to feel more like a Magus you can take that and build around Harm spells. It also doesn’t have to be recharged like spellstrike. A buff build is probably better, but you could still do nova damage for a couple turns if you build for it
the battle harbinger being based around bless and bane is a really cool choice, really leaning into the style many warclerics already went for - and with the remaster massively increasing the range of both of these spells from 5ft to 10ft (bane) and 15ft (bless), further increasing in 10ft increments rather than mere 5 I can honestly see this class becoming one of my favorite melee concepts in this game, that already offers the highest variety in play style options.
Really like how they approached the concept of a class archetype in this one and I hope they play around more with core mechanics of a class for their next archetypes - seeing how they handled the battle harbinger I can't help but feel like some other class archetypes like vindicator or slayer could've pushed the envelope way further. I mean those two for example play way more along the lines of a basic subclass compared to this here, and while a subclass is always a welcome addition I feel like going the way of an archetype opens up the design space to pinpoint the specific class fantasy you're trying to sell.
Just imagine if spellshot was designed after this book came out, so much potential there.
I really love the idea of this class archetype. A cleric-like wave caster with martial proficiency seems awesome. My concern with this class is that I think spending two actions on turn one of every fight just casting bless/bane/benediction/malediction is going to get boring. At the end of the day, this class has some tension because you have some strong high-rank divine spells, but most of your feats encourage you to spend actions on first rank spells. I feel like the class should be able to cast Battle Font spells with better action economy OR have more effects ride on these spells to really solidify the Battle Harbingers' identity as the aura-martial.
Here's an idea I have that I think makes the class a bit more exciting:
Fortifying Aura - Class Feat 6
Prerequisite: Battle Harbinger Doctrine
The first time you cast or sustain a Battle Font spell each turn, you and allies within the emanation gain temporary hit points equal to twice the spell's rank until the beginning of your next turn.
Withering Aura - Class Feat 6
Prerequisite: Battle Harbinger Doctrine
The first time you cast or sustain a Battle Font spell each turn, enemies within the emanation take spirit damage equal to twice the spell's rank, with a basic fortitude save against your Class DC.
battle harbinger of shizuru goes brrrrrrrr
Battle harbinger could make a very interesting knife fighterm daggers going to 1d6 and getting crip spec, plus being able to riasenhit chances and lower enemy AC......
Poor Oloch will drop that sword when he get to level 13 because for some baffling reason they decided to only give them Master Prof with their deity weapon, which is that punny Bladed Gauntlet.
I'll add it to the growing list of classes I want to try.
We asked for Divine Magus, they gave us the bard from wish...Stuck doing the same buffing and postioning chires that make pf2e combat so boring and frankly awful
For the Spellstrike potential cant you use harm spells with attacks thx to Channel Smite?
Edit: now that i think about It, there is not a feat that allows you to prepare "both heal and harm spells if the deity allows It" that would add those tò "Bane", "bless", "malediction" and "benediction"? Should work with the " worship" 2 Gods feat
I’d be willing to try Battle Harbinger.
I play a Faith’s Flamekeeper Witch in Abomination Vaults and thanks to a Staff of Providence + sacrificing one of my highest spell slots to prepare the staff with extra charges + being a Nephilim with Extraplanar Supplication, half my PC’s gameplay is literally just casting Bless every combat
Def my favorite class archetype.
I think I like both types of Class Archetypes, the ones that just slightly alter a class, AND the ones that basically make a whole new class!
I hate the term Obvious. I think it's either/or, and if you get the feat that gives you the other two, than it's any of them.
I can really see running Bless and Malediction to give massive bonuses to hit and crit to all your melee.
I think I would skip Exigent Auras, and just go with Bless and Benediction vs mindless creatures.
This may be the only time I've wanted more feats than there are feat slots!
Pathbuilder let's you do both or if you take the feat for Benediction and malediction you can do all 4.
⚡️💪⚡️Great review!!
where can I find this archetype?
Look, I'm sorry. Grammatically what is stated is explicitly clear. Now if you want to argue that they didn't mean what they wrote, that's fine, but RAW by the nature of the english language either spell is a valid preparation for any given slot. It makes it clear that this is a restriction on these slots, and it is the only restriction plzced on them. You can have a mix of bane and bless if you so choose. It's made further clear when you add the other 2 spells and you add them to the list of spells you can prepare in your battle font.
I know people try to read more into what's said, but what they wrote is crystal clear.
Templar would have been a better name for this class archetype tbh :(
BH is kinda lame, you give up multiple upcasted Heal for upcasted bless etc which is practically same as rank 1 bless. You also cannot take any of the feats that need a heal/harm font. And in return you get to be a lame divine not-magus coz you cannot spellstrike or use the font for channelsmites
The way to look at the upcast for bless/bane (and benediction/malediction if you take the feat) is to look at the feats given by the archetype as "upcast x.5".
Lol, it sounds like you don't like the idea that a great martial character can't also be a spellcaster 😂
The Battle Harbinger is an offensive Cleric. If you want to be good at healing, don't be a Harbinger.
Its like you're saying the Wizard isn't good because it doesn’t have healing spells. Like, what? 😆
@@blobjorn3248 "great martial character can't also be a spellcaster"
Magus is right here, so is summoner (though that one does whack sharing thing). Or hell, any martial with a spellcasting archetype, which this essentially is.
@The_Yukki The magus is a high risk "spellcaster". If you miss one attack you waste your turn and need about 2 turns of setup to attempt it again.
The only spells they are really good at are attack spells, which really limits their versatility.
The Battle Harbinger is built around auras. Like the video showed, there's a good chance you can get an effective +4 to attack rolls (or higher) while also providing a good benefit to the rest of your group.
The Battle Harbinger can get feats like Channel Smite, Restorative Strike, etc. to "spellstrike" if they want.
Also, and Magus doesn't have reliable healing, for themselves or others. A Battle Harbinger does.
People really need to get rid of the "bIg NuMbEr BeTtEr" mentality.
@@blobjorn3248 Does harbringer have 'reliable healing' with their 4 slots, that they'll probably even more auras into? (cause from the top of my head you only get 4 font slots). Their only 'reliable healing' is gonna be battle medicine and it's gonna be as reliable as any other clerics (or any wisdom character really, though -1 on a non-wisdom key isn't that big of a deal since you want assurance for medicine anyway), and even that's reliant on them having a 1handed (or i guess 1+) weapon which cuts into their damage further.
The effective +4 to attack rolls requires 2 turns setup, that's the most important part of a fight gone for your setup (works great if you're prebuffing though. Also that's what I think living the creed's for 1 turn both auras for 3 actions + maybe some extra action if you're hasted. Still a bleak thing to wait to lvl 20 to not require 2 turns setup.)
Compare this to the battle oracle! What have they done...
I kinda wish a couple of the features were built in instead of being feats.
how will this work with free archetype
Exigent is far better than you realize.
Did I hear Amogus? Haha
The biggest problem I find with BH is that it doesn't do enough natively as a CA. The illusion of choice is real, as if you don't take the feats offered to BHs, you end up being a weaker Warpriest, or a glorified Champion that took a divine spellcasting dedication that doesn't scale to an impactful degree.
Then take the feats?
You should want the archetype for the feats?
The benefit of the system is you can mix and match feats for your class. You can build many classes different ways.
If you exclusively take only feats from the archetype, you're throwing away that perk of the system. Even if you were using FA, there's an argument to take both options offered at each even level (except for 20th, obviously).
I agree, you will be spending all your feats just to get you "base features", and even then those are not that good
Really depends on your group TBH.
@@feelingfuzzied9942 You're going to have to expand more on that .
Very well made archetype, looks fun. Hoping to see more class archetypes that change class core mechanics like this in the future.
My favourite class archetype since Nonat stream on the book.
So hype
Since you are not going to listen to criticism of the class Archetype I guess there is no point saying why I am somewhat disappointed with Battle Harbinger.
On the Athletics vs Acrobatics at Level 2 you may already have Athletics Training. Acrobatics is good for Kip Up later
It's also good for when you find yourself on a slippery surface.
I would argue that the Bloodrager is another example of a well designed class archetype, and that Vindicator and Warrior of Legend are solid runner-ups. I think Bloodrager is actually superior in that it appeals to different character ideas; Battle Harbinger is definitely a significant playstyle difference, but in terms of character concepts it has a lot of overlap with Battle Priest and Champion.
@@Ghost.in.the.Machine Agreed. I think a lot of folks are letting their emotions and personal vision cloud the facts. I’ve seen some folks say the BH is worthless because it isn’t Magus with the Divine spell list.
They seem to forget that these are class ARCHETYPES not a CLASS. And if you wanted a Divine Magus class archetype, it would be for the Magus class not a Cleric class.
For that I always allows secular and sworn champions like 5e because there Will be complicated their differences in the roleplay xD
@@everlopez6795 Didn’t they add some covenants that are essentially secular?
@@toodleselnoodos6738 to be honest, I didn't read completely, some recommendation to the pally?
First.