Non Turbo! 500HP At 11,000 RPM | Big Power, Small Package [TECH TALK]
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
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Small engines, NA and big boost! What goes into keeping a drag car at an optimum output for an entire run and what stock block is better, B series or K Series?
Sport FWD class record holders (793 @189) 4 Piston Racing legend Luke Wilson runs us through what it takes to create a billet CNC head cylinder that can deliver results for small block high output naturally aspirated and forced induction drag racing engines. Discussed is how flow charts and dyno charts do not always correlate and when it might be time to switch to a billet head for you B or K series Honda/Acura build.
Discussed are many of the design advantages over stock and how even a less optimal design in relation to valve vs bore location will still yield better results than a stock unit. Luke dives into how a valve angle change can increase the flow by 40 CFM (that’s the same amount some air compressors produce!) and what sort of RPM they focus on being usable with any design for drag racing purposes.
Lastly you’ll learn some of the reasons why you can’t just take a build like this and expect to happily run it on the streets along with some of the options you have when it comes to ductile iron sleeves and the trade off on strength vs cooling abilities.
Want to learn how to build a 500HP NA engine like this? Start with a reliable knowledge source via a free live lesson here: bit.ly/LiveEngi...
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#highperformanceacademy #enginebuiding101 #4pistonracing #myprishow #pri2018 #4p #dragracing #honda #acura
![3000HP, 150 PSI Of Boost | What Do YOU Know About Compound Turbo Systems | Shane T [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1pV_tLbZY0A/mqdefault.jpg)
![3000HP, 150 PSI Of Boost | What Do YOU Know About Compound Turbo Systems | Shane T [TECH TALK]](/img/tr.png)
![[HOONIGAN] DT 151: +500HP NA Honda Powered 9 Second Drag Car](/img/n.gif)
I love how he describes ~7000rpm as mid-range.
Alex Crosse to be fair I had a b16 em1 which bounced revlimit at around 8200.
I considered 5500 to 7500 mid range with stock cams. Lol.
I abused that poor thing.
little engines love rpm. in general the smaller the engine the higher it can potentially rev. the only way to fight the lack of displacement is to rev it out farther. hence why f1 cars have tiny engines and rev as high as motorcycles.
@@sed8181 not completely true my 2.0 Jetta has the limiter set at 5k and you could rev them up to 6.5k but it looses power after 5k with the stock cams
@@PSNxFTWxRAGOI you have given my an exception that proves the rule my friend. I did say generally it is true.
Sorry to be that guy but even Honda 1.6 sohc can rev up to 8k with minimal mods and still be reliable. I hated Honda for a while until I got one now had a few and wont go anywhere else for anything under 2L
You can tell a quality company by these interviews. He clearly knows what his products are about which is a contrast to a lot of the others.
Great interview and a great company.
@No Thanks its crazy each piston is making 125hp for a, n/a 4 banger that's pretty good
I'm sold, just dropped an order on killer cams, sleeved turbo block and going to trust Luke, these guys know what they're doing with a K series
dude your so good with interviewing vendors keep it up
He is, and he's got the knowledge
Love that the interviewer knows what he's talking about
It's great to see Luke on top of the game. He helped me with a build over a decade ago and I was just blown away with his dedication to knowledge about his work. They were on a different level then, and it's no surprise they're breaking records.
I'm glad to see the sport compact market becoming more mature and more recognized in motorsports. There is tremendous amount of work that's going into 4 bangers.. Big displacement is 2 EASY.
@FrequencyOfThought
That is a foolish thing to say. Nothing "easy" with large displacement engines when you are trying to win.
@@jaylestingi5418I mean yes but also in contexts no. A smaller displacement will always be harder.
Why I'm starting a build plan design I have sound 4.2 but with room to go up to as much as 5L of display albeit more like max of 4.4 to 4.8
However I'm also pushing for some pretty silly goals. 150wheel hp per cylinder. 8 cylinder k48. Works out to like almost 300 hp per Litre of displacement at 4.2L
However going for volumetric efficiency as high as possible while being built for a boost system. And then a boost system that helps reduce detonation issues improve exhaust scavenging and provide a very wide powerband.
K48 is hot vee. Good turbo spool but not the best intake set up. However going into a silly open engine bay with side intakes. Twin superchargers positive displacement. Twin turbos probably twin scroll. Under blower water to air and water to air intercooling right after the turbo as tightly packaged as possible. Supercharger integrated bypass valves but need ones that still make use of the second stage of cooling. Ac assisted water to air, interchill cooling for both stages. And less heat for the boost pressure and flow. Plus ac compressor swap to suit high rpms like 8500 to 9300, and pulsing it above that max rated speed to handle working right till redline and survive.
Oversized supers that are oversized enough to be under driven and still slightly over sized in a sense. Creates higher boost pressure with lower ar ratio. When turbo is feeding it it'll have less parasitic losses. Aiming for 80s to theoretical 90s percent efficiency range on the super and turbo. Mid to high 80s low 90s super. High 80s to mid 90s turbo side. Engine effiency in the 30 to 40 percent range. Combined total effiency range in the 40s or better.
Makes 10k very reliable redline wise. 10500 even and could push to 11k. Hp levels aren't unreasonable besides displacement to hp numbers max tune. Vtec cam profiles can be tuned to 5k rpm sections of the powerband. Idle at 1k or less. Will run on pump gas. And should still have decent fuel economy. Plus have enough torque everywhere.
On a big block with something equivalent to vtec I wouldn't even need a need charger system.
But goal is power to weight. Power per litre. Powerband and tunability. Drivability. And also ridiculous efficiency. As well as fuel econmy. Hence going to be paying for combustion chamber design help.
Boost system isn't even really about pressure. More about density flow and controlling air into the engine for tuning. As well as not needing extra fuel for cooling. And being able to tune power to what's usable.
Less displacement. But every aspect of it needs to be tuned properly.
My ls7 can rev to 10k. Not as reliable but old tech. It makes way more torque though. And with a similar boost system but less efficient and less sizing options in some regards since sized for both cylinder heads. It'll make 1400rwhp with a bit more room. And a bit of turbo tweaking and it can hit 2000hp.
At 1200rwhp on the k48 it'll be like 1440 crank. And like 720hp builds on a k20. Basically the limit of what's considered properly streetable without well built highly tuned. Peak I can make like probably 2400hp if everything goes perfect.
My ls7 ain't even tapped pushing to 2500hp if I need it to. I'd need to get into much less efficient zones then I want. But I could still do a bit of tweaks and probably get it to 3k as long as nothing blows up. But reliability goes down. However even at that level it'll not be quite a straight uo drag build. The k48 at 2400 would be 300 passes or less before rebuild or blow up. And alot of difference in costs.
And My ls7 was built forever ago. I could easily get it to rev higher more reliable and make more hp now. And then throw the boost on and get even higher.
Andre, thank you for talking to these guys. They are very underrated in the industry. 4 Piston is a great company with un believable customer support. They make an awesome product with the knowledge to back it up! Another awesome 1 on 1 from Andre and the HPA boys!! 🤙🤙
Really cool interview. 4piston lad seems sound as.
..a pound found on the ground
These Honda boys consider 6000rpm Low to Mid-range RPM. Their engines make my RB26DETT in my GTR seem like a KA24DE. I'm jealous, LOL.
6000 is when the fun starts, lol
WTFFFF are you talking about
My KA24DE revs to 7500rpms , thanks for the compliment!!
What are you talking about? the rb26 can rev to 10k rpm+ with a lot of work just like the k20. A stock k20 revs to 9k.
My HGDNJHVX24588HJKVCF civic engine makes 7000 rpm and my KJHVDDFG32GDFBBJHFX Lexus engine makes 8500 rpm
Great video! very cool perspective, making tech questions and getting tech answers! Learning is fenomenal feeling.
Yes Luke knows his stuff! The interview just gets better and better the longer you watch. Glad you enjoyed it too =) - Taz.
@@hpa101 keep with this tech interviews, its very helpfull!
Just sent my head for my evo x to 4 piston. These guys are the real deal. Can’t wait to see the results
Awesome interview. Nice throw in question about the dropping sleeves Andre. This guys really is at the top of the game!
This interview is wholesome. I wish every interviews are like this. Respect.
Very awesome work , pushing head flow boundaries !
4P Luke Wilson and Josh Klein are masters...and it has not gone to their heads...
😗ooh
What a great interview by both parties.
Another big thumbs up for 4piston and Luke. I have dealt with them before and they are THE people to go to and I'm in Northern Ireland!
Into the mind of a man who has SERIOUSLY learned from trial and error, awesome interview mate 👌
That's interesting they realized on a DOHC that the exhaust valves can be shrunk and intake valve increased to support the power level.
Koenigsegg freevalve system is the future i believe. Andre interviewing Mr Koenigsegg would be techtastic
my friend has the second fastes k series all motor in the world with a 4piston engine.. jaime marsh.... marsh tuning. connecticut baby
Word, he's a G, Respect to Jamie!! 👊
This guy looks like Valterri Bottas
Yeah, I see it. haha.
James must be hunting down for him
Was about to say so..lol
Brilliant video, love the longer interview with more in depth conversation. You should do a video or two in NZ, theres some really cool backyard engineering at the drags atm. Not to mention the limit pushers that you are familiar with, your world wide audience will be amazed to see the crazy stuff that goes on.
4p are one of the best for Honda. Respect great work. I'd love a 4p head one day
At 7k rpm my stock K24a2 is about to start tapping out thanks to the RBB manifold lol. Not changing my setup anytime soon though.
Bet that would be a dream to drive on street being 500hp NA.
I’d love to have this engine in a Ariel atom or a very lightweight track car
In the lotus mantra: simplify then add lightness, power to weight is simply more important than pure power and having a smooth powerband is more impressive than a high peak motor that needs to be revved out next bunts the wheels.
Speed is smoothness and smoothness is speed, that’s why Mclaren and porsches cars are so quick off the line.
Im not a Honda guy and have no interest in them really. Your interview style is so good i sat and watched the whole thing. Excellent work!
I'm not a Honda guy either but they sure do know how to pull horsepower out of a small engine. Their knowledge can translate to other non-Honda projects.
How can you not be? They get the most, if not close to the most hp/L
@@matthewe293 That's why I'm a Honda enthusiast, the best HP/L they got the record strong motors what's not to like with Honda.
+5mm intake valve?!😳woooy
Can listen to these guys alll day 👍🏼😎
I can’t tap the like button enough. 😩
The numbers he was talking about is crazy! A 1500hp+ 4 cylinder!?
2000 even.
The fwd h pattern record is 7.5@215mph!
Insane.
@@dannthenitroman the number these little engines can put out really makes me want to swap into my little truck.
1500 is easy....we run close to 2000...Honda power..
@@hondatrix I just want my truck to be over 400. I think it'd be way to much work to take a 05 GMC Canyon, put a 400hp+ Honda engine in it and still keep it 4WD and street legal! Oh and let's not forget the price of doing that... That 2K is crazy! That 500hp per cylinder!
@No Thanks we'll I don't plan on doing anything with it other than dick'n around. And you are right it's not really worth it but it's what I got I to work with so...
Recommended 2 years later and I own a kseries now 😂
I'd like to see a K or B headed V8.
Now there's a concept id watch
Nissan VH45 is like a beefier B V8
There is now a company that is working on a k v8
There's this one guy that's making a 5.0L flatplane V8 by basically combining 2 K24s. I think his Instagram is NeutronEngines if you want to see it. The build looks crazy
Amazing interview! Very, very cool to hear all of this information!
Stuff like this makes me wanna go with Honda. Better aftermarket, And more focus on N/A builds which are my preference over boosted builds. I think ill go with an RSX type s honestly with a good k-series. Even though i prefer mitsubishi..Aftermarket support for their cars is pretty pathetic unless your going with a vr-4 turbo build.
the integra chassis is better for handling and lighter for dragging. K swap are very common in those cars. Integra with a k20a2 ftw
Boost fa life.
Good choice 😂
25 seconds in ant the guy is psyching me out, that stare, those penetrating eyes . Im glad hes a engine builder/ tuner cos im sure if he wasn't he would have a promising future as a psychotic axe murderer in a top rated horror flick lol
Wait, Why my car hit rev-limiter at mid-range rpm?
*_Damn I need one of these in my Civic asap._*
Wow, awesome interview! Thank you! Recommended!
Pretty impressive to be turbo charged and doing 11k rpm at the same time.
Thats a N/A 500hp engine they built revving 11k...
Boom
Need one of those 👍 500 hp.... 😏
Makes me really want a Honda
Mitsubishi are also really good 😂
FWD is terrible. Get an older NSX or S2000. I still have an EF D16A6 racecar and my background IS FWD Hondas. With that said, buiding a FWD racecar is only competitive with other FWD racecars. No one ever builds a car and chooses FWD because it performs better!
Jay Lestingi you have an ef with a d16a6 as a race car and you’re saying fwd doesnt perform good? Lmfaooo gtfo kid
Can the 4 piston oil pump handle the 11,000 RPM?. That's my only question as i have destroyed a few engines this way. Great video and very informative. Looking forward to more video.
I'd get in touch with them directly and have a chat about your application. They'll make sure you get the advice you need before you pull out your wallet =) - Taz.
www.4pistonracing.com/
If i am not mistaken, they were using a custom made dry sump setup made by Dailey Engineering for K20 engines
God I love this channel
I clicked to find out about the Non Turbo! 500HP At 11,000 RPM and all I heard was turbo talk.
What capacity are these NA engines and in what racing class?
SFWD.
I believe it's a 2.7L
90x106mm autocross class
I need a 4piston H22 head with a 4-1 plm ramhorn header
LOW END RPM - 6k
Oof Muscle Car and Diesel Car Owners got spanked
Yea right lol
You don't know what you are talking about, do you?
Plenty of 2-valve drag race motors turning 10,000 - 10,500 rpm.
@@jaylestingi5418 huh? I was pointing 6k rpm as he referred as low end rpm but its the max rpm for some engines especially diesel and big block v8's lol
They basically almost built their own engine. Crazy
Waiting for a aftermarket billet head for my L15B7 10th gen turbo civic
Another great interview!!!!
Cheers mate!
I would like to know how much $ a setup like that for 500hp will cost someone
How much hp is lost by the tight side of the timing chain having to be pulled down a plastic chain guide? There's friction there, admittedly small, but every bit counts ...
If you could run that chain straight, reduced losses
500hp out of a 2L? 100psi of boost?? This is insane, where next?
2.7l with 15:1 CR and C16 gas. It's impressive nonetheless
@@turnip5465 not c16, they use methanol in NA form, typically M1, M5 or a nitromethane mix
@@endlessfable thanks didn't know :)
They even have less piston rings if I am correct
@NoNoNoNii Yeah then compare the torque and get back to me.
Wish I could afford 4 piston. 😍
🇦🇬 Excellent video. Always so informative. ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
i want this 500HP kseries swap into my honda s2000. except that is too loud for the street.
Yeah I can never afford in it in my ek
@@kseriesdan9722 never say never. I thought the same but I currently have a stock k20a2 motor in my eg. Hoping to get 500 end of this year
@@kseriesdan9722 the motor and Trans was $1500 full type S. I did the swap myself. I know you can do it Dan
@@brisevans8976 yeah I have a jdm k20a in my ek and ready for more power been over 4 years installed. I'm thinking turbo might be easy. But like the idea of drop in cams(drag cartel) and itbs. But lucky to have 240whp.i can boost and make 350whp to 400whp stock
Put a valve on it.
Peugeot 306 gti maxi made 400hp at 11000, 2 litres
Nice! - Taz.
@@hpa101 the stock made 167hp with 2ltres to, and whithout any vvt, the head flow very well and whith stock cams for street the car has a lot of low torque too, 6 gearbox and ligth chassis
Yea, but developing a billet road/street head is what we all want.. and can't afford.. lol. But in all seriousness, since the new honda engines have the headers in the head, it's either turbo or billet if you want dual vvt or direct injection, and I can't imagine that setup does any good for pushing naturally aspirated setups.
lol the capabilities of the billet heads are way above streetcar level. The cost to use it correctly is way inefficient on the street lol
another great interview.
So this will be making 250hp at 6000rpm????
The interviewer reminds me of Thor... with the hammer
Looks like a lot of shrouding on the intake? I wonder how that big of a valve is actually beneficial vs say a +3 or +4 thats not shrouded...
Speaking of k series, what power is a standard block safe up to? Without being sleeved
500hp you can push more still
Mor power
88mm Max w/0 sleeve
Great Video.
Ya bash on the integrated header. But its not a matter of timing the exhaust when the space is removed completely and pulses will only travel 1 way now. I still prefer skunk2 rocker on the exhaust side so i can get the cam ground without valve locks flying off. With high lift, who needs vtec on exhaust.
Man, i wish i didnt hit that tree though.
No one is bashing anything, every part has pros and cons and what is being discussed are the cons in relation to his application.
For example when comparing to you here, how did you find a tree on a drag strip....? 😅 - Taz.
Great video i would of waited for ads but u do not have any get payed my dude!
any idea on cost for the billet head?
somewhere in the 5k region i believe
46 dislikers are devoid of sense.
I wonder how much did that build 🤔 cost
Turbo j or k series in a STI wld that even fit?
yes and it's been done look up boostedboiz hondaru
K in the STi
Sti, as in subaru? Subaru's have 2 heads because it is a flat 4. They are talking about a straight 4 k series. A single inline 4. I am wondering if it is the rover k series? That honda shared
No water jackets ?
Run on methanol,race gas
I think it's insane that guys can get 1000hp/L from a 2L 4 cylinder. Not to mention with a stock block
The gains might not be as large as we've seen in the last 10-20 years, but I do wonder what we WILL be seeing in another 10-20 years from NOW sometimes. Pretty cool stuff - Taz.
0:01 R18A?
Keeping it at 60 psi boost....👀
did yall not hear that high pitch hiss during editiing
How much does this cylinder head cost I want one😂
I'll take 2! You can check out 4 Piston Racing here: www.4pistonracing.com/ - Taz.😎
@Yuck Foutube Decent.
I wonder if they got a sister company, 8 pistion.
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The problem with this is that it's not really feasible to spend 36000 dollars on solid Billet Block....when can just buy a 2019 type-r.Why bother
If you're not drag racing trying to win and even break some records, then no, products like this simply are not for you. That doesn't mean they're not for others though 😎
I mean you could even argue you might be better off putting that 30K into a property or something else instead, life is full of a range of interests and choices for us all - Taz.
Hey Ted Klaus, you should have put this in the NSX.. You dummy.. not that v6.. They should have had me run the NSX project
Does someone made Billet Head for B Series?
I think so but not 100% sure
@@BIGSMOKE-bl2lq ok thanks
Try looking up a website called theoldone. They make billet b series heads and came and pistons and other stuff for the b series. Endyne is the real name of the company.
@@greybeardsharpsword4626 oh thanks
@@greybeardsharpsword4626 Endyne didn't make a billet head for Hondas or anything else. Good content on their website and forum though.
My K engine will go 600 bhp NA, no problem, ...huh !, you want a dyno pull ... ummmmm
Haha yeah that's true for some out there!
I know 3 people who have hung a valve using these heads
Price?
That cost at least 100k build
Am I the only one the misses the old 1.6 civic and crx engines that could rev your heart out? the new k engines are too lazy :P
a stock k series should rev to 9k. unless you are talking about k24s, your typical accord engine comes to life at 6k then hits rev limiter at 6500 and makes me cry tears of blood because it should be able to rev at least to 7k reliably.
That's a badass weedeater.
yeah I have one of those but after seeing the performance of tesla I made the switch to electric weed eater. now my old honda waits on the curb waiting for the day when it can cut grass again.
@@sed8181 lol, right on.
Lol.... He said there that there is a turbo on it....
Mustang Boss watch the whole video mate :)
Why do sleeves drop? Lol. Because you guys are bad installers. 😂😋
We had a 4piston head on our race k20 engine, an exhaust seat fall out and destroyed the engine, we contacted 4piston they did not want to know about it or help in anyway, BEWARE!!
Pretty common in race parts and it depends on the customers attitude a lot too.
@No Thanks please explain how
@@wudntulike2no32 not so much about the warranty. If you cant stand by your product and even offer advice as to what may have happened...
@Sergio Aguirre dropped a seat. But talking about flow. Car made, to the kW. exactly the same power as a stock head when one was put in its place.
If it made the same power then you have either...
A.) Poor engine builder
B.) Poor parts selection
C.) Poor tuning
Or a combination of the above. The heads arent the problem
Hmmmmm i have seen a turbo on the engine....
This accent is so cringe I need subtitles.
There are subtitles/captions. Hit the CC button down near the bottom right of your video window. You're welcome 😎 - Taz.
@@hpa101 bad ass! Thanks👍🏻
No worries! Only a very small amount of content that we watch is in our own accent so we understand the struggles 😂 As such we caption everything we can rather than just relying on the auto ones for you guys 🤘 - Taz.
@@hpa101 fair enough. For what it's worth... your content is top notch. Really liking the deep dive on CAN bus interface.
CHEERS!
@@hpa101 *subbed 👍🏻
Why do u talk like that
This is a bit out of our education scope, but you will learn about accents here: ua-cam.com/video/pGZz71V07t8/v-deo.html
Enjoy! - Taz. PS, you have the accent, not us =P
A 2L engine can theoretically make and absolute maximum of 364bhp NA at 10,500 rpm on gasoline. Maybe 420bhp @ 12k. Where do they come up with 500 bhp? I call BS.
I'm not certain, but I think he said 2.7L at around 11k rpm. Also maybe he meant at the crank...but then again I've seen non billet k24 stroked to 2.6 at 9krpm make 311 at the wheels with 14:1 comp. Check out "phongs crx" on UA-cam. If he can make that without billet and without 5mm over valves...500 seems attainable I guess...I had to watch the crx video again after I read your comment, they say rpm around 14:50 mark I believe and the rest of the set up at the beginning. I used to build i4 racecars 15-20 years ago and 200whp was fast lol. Tech has improved so much its mind boggling to old timers like myself lol
It's not 2 liter, and it's not running on gasoline. It has 16:1 compression ratio
@@Shadowboost you're not wrong, although your comment wasn't useful.
He jumps around a lot. His drag engine is 2.7L, and his road race engines are 2.0L. He mentions VP C85 fuel, which is basically E85 (I checked VP's site), as well as methanol and he doesn't qualify which fuel is used for those power numbers. His site says, "this engine will produce 420-460whp depending on the fuel used" which is about 470-516 bhp. fwiw 516 bhp is the theoretical limit for a 2.7L engine at 10k on C85.
Well at least it has a hundred pound feet of torque who could ask for anything more?
@Chris Stavro What formula are you using? Please show your work. Something tells me that these guys aren't racing thumbs; so rules thereof, don't apply.
This guy is so voice is annoying to listen too.