For me personaly it is very simple. I see The Lord Jesus and i have a smile on my face, When i see Him on the Cross i have a tear in my eye, coz i love what He did for all of Us. When i see saints i feel like i look at an older brother/sister that are inspiration for me. They are like a window to heaven. God bless you Brother
Icons are a historical record of the church. It does not makes sense that we could see Jesus on earth, but we cant see him now? How is seeing a picture of him different than seeing him physically present? If others were allowed to experience God's works on earth than we can also. The reason we did not have an iconographic tradition before the advent of Christ is because you can not properly interpret history apart from Him. Once He revealed Himself and took on flesh we see Him fully in all things.
First of all, thank you for sharing your journey to Orthodoxy. Like you, I am a convert. I am in no way a theologian nor do I have any Church authority. My experience is my own and I hope you and others take it as such. I like how you used the images/items of a drawn pentagram and Ouji board to illustrate your point. In my experience, I have interacted with many people who ascribe to Christian evangelical faiths (Baptists, etc.). I have noticed that the people I interact with wear or display a cross/crucifix. Either some form of jewelry, hanging it in rooms of their homes and even tattoos. I know that they don't "worship" those works of art, but they do help to serve as a reminder of who they are trying to emulate. Kneeling in front of a cross doesn't mean you are worshipping the cross itself. Displaying an ICTHYS tattoo, a WWJD tattoo or cross on your body doesn't mean that you are worshipping that image. I venture to guess that those images are there to remind those owners that they are of God and they desire forgiveness and a place in the Kingdom. I believe it helps them to have that reminder constantly visible to help them to control themselves and their sinful ways/desires. Icons in Orthodoxy serve this same purpose. Whether the icon is of Christ or a named saint, it gives us a reminder that we can work to be better. As we strive for theosis, having a "hero" to emulate can be a powerful reminder for us. Just as you pointed out, hanging pictures of storied people from history shows us that high achievement is possible and they give us visual representations/photos to serve as a reminder. I think of the memorials in Washington, D.C. (Lincoln, Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, war memorials, etc.) along with pictures/paintings that adorn our capitol buildings, local government buildings, schools, hospitals, etc. The hospital where my wife works was founded and operated by Catholic nuns. Paintings and photos of the early days of the hospital are present. Does the staff worship those pictures? Absolutely not. However, when they see those images, they can imagine the trials and tribulations those women went through to bring healing and comfort to so many in their community. The staff can then emulate those ideals. I, for one, will continue to venerate the icons of the Church and look up to my spiritual heroes. I believe they serve as an example to me on how to live my life, grow in my faith and remain steadfast before God.
I appreciate your comment brother and your examples as well makes sense to me. Thank you for watching my video and giving me feed back means alot. God bless you in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit
I’m currently watching the video right now brother but I’d like to type my view I understand the feelings we can have when in front of images of the Lord, scripture & saints & so I think it’s alright to have them in our houses & see them bc they can assist us in our faith However I am not necessarily in-tune with the bowing to them , as I know God is the God of the living & non of our brothers and sisters in Christ will remain dead, I see bowing & speaking / praying to non physical people as a transgression against the Lords commandment of Leviticus 26:1 (as the lord tells me quite clearly to not bow down to images) & 1 Thessalonians 5:22 bc even if they are alive in Christ the “argument” could be how does that look to the people who aren’t understanding of such teachings ? I know it’s tradition & some would argue me many church people have done it & gotten results but as of rn ima scripture over tradition type of person . As I stated I believe it’s okay to have the icons and such in our houses but to bow and pray to them it doesn’t seem the Lord wills us to do that as much as men I’d also like to hear your thoughts on this brother 👇🏾 •••• ###Praying to the saints & I understand how some of our brothers believe saints can intercede for prayers and such but I just don’t see any scripture in the Bible to support their view as 1 Timothy 2:1,5 Not, you can pray to a saint because he alive with Christ & then Christ will be the one to take it to the father it just doesn’t make sense because it says “there is one mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus” so why couldn’t we just remain with Christ ? & so if they alive with Christ why not just remain praying to Christ when the reason they be at all is because of him? & When we pray to the saints in Christ, we are speaking to people in the spirit world, which is both consulting a familiar spirit and necromancy & praying to the lord for the dead I think that’s okay however I don’t think praying to the saints directly is okay maybe it’s better to pray to the Lord for him to send a saint? Just my thoughts & etc , i hope I haven’t struck the wrong nerve & for you to respond to this with your side I’m still watching the video brother !
Sorry, but you are wrong brother. Joshua 7:6 - Joshua fell down to the earth before the ark. The ark symbolized God's presence, he wasn't worshiping a wooden box. This is an object made of wood and material matter just as an icon is. Daniel 10:9 - Daniel bows his head, literally prostrates to the ground before an angel. A non physical thing that you said is forbidden. Psalms 5:7 - But I, by your great love, can come into your house; in reverence *I bow down toward your holy temple.* Notice David bows toward the temple, an icon and type of the prototype and heavenly image, see Hebrews 9:23. The word for bow down here is a verb, 'shachah' in Hebrew, and it's used in Psalm 99:5,9 and in Exodus 20:5 which is a type of Christ's body, the temple in John 2:21. As far as praying to the saints not making sense, that doesn't determine it's truthfulness and it isn't necromancy. You as a Protestant have a Bible that the reformers removed books from the Bible that contained these truths. Take for example 2 Maccabeas15:12-16 where the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth. A similar situation happens on the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared alive talking with Jesus. Was this necromancy? What you have done is divorced yourself from the collective teachings of the Church and the body of Christ by turning away from the full assembly of the church, read Hebrews 12:22-24 where the church is those who have run the race, the Holy angels, the general assembly which is the same chapter describing the cloud of witnesses, the saints of old who are with us.
@@andys3035 I may have divorced myself from your church by a lack of knowledge but from the body of Christ ? Nah i don’t think having differing theological reasoning would mean I am cs there are other churches who interpret the word of God quiet literally following the lord’s commandments more than a tradition of man, ima be sure to do more research though as I’m still learning ! & could you help me understand how praying to the dead in Christ would not be consulting familiar spirits or necromancy (i.e. communicating with the dead for specific purposes) ? & if we are praying to the saints in Christ is that not speaking to people in the spirit world aka beyond earth ? & when I said non physical people , I said people & not🙅🏾 thing but to clear the misunderstanding I didn’t mean in terms of angels who of course never died & got rose again I meant non physical people as in people on earth who’ve died and are now living in Christ , why would it be that we pray & bow to them rather than solely just praying & bowing to the Lord Jesus? & the example you used with maccabees was a dream the difference between that & what happened with Elijah and Moses is Jesus made that happen in reality
@@andys3035 & because we read Joshua after losing a battle pleading with ark which represents Gods presence I’m not entirely sure that justifies us bowing and praying to icons . I understand the idea is we are honoring saints & Jesus , I’m okay with icons of Jesus as he is of course God but I don’t understand how or where saints get the stamp of approval for us to do the same for them Edit: brothers… I understand the philosophy behind it. “Mentally, one commits idolatry when they have the intent to worship someone other than Yah as god. The Israelites never possessed that intent toward King David even though they performed the same physical acts toward both.” & so the same would be with the church , not sure this is okay or considered leaning on our own understanding in the eyes of the Lord though I am still learning
The Pharisees could say the exact same thing about their ritual handwashing. No, it’s not explicitly commanded in the Bible, but it’s “tradition.“ I know you probably don’t care, but I’m not sure that I can in good conscience support a purportedly Christian channel, that promote idolatry like this. May God turn your heart to him and lead you to repentance and faith. God bless. Read Exodus 20 and John three.
@@MaybeJohn7 how is focusing on a two-dimensional picture during prayer any different than focusing on a statue? An idol doesn’t have to be a three-dimensional image. It’s just anything that takes the place of God and our lives.
There are three churches going from the beginning. The Orthodox, the Coptic and the Catholic. All of which use icons but you choose to go by 16th century interpretations. How? How can someone have acces to the writings of the people who compiled the bible, who knew exactly what they meant by their work, but ignore them in favor of going by the theology of Luther who decided by himself to take out 7 books of the bible because they contradicted his doctrine. How can you follow a fat political guru that was sleeping with nuns and not see that he was doing exactly what Mohammed did in order to gain political influence? Luther lived a life of sin, very similar with Mohammed...apart form sleeping with minors...gg Luther I guess.
@@neyneynanamo2071 no, icons are used by orthodox and, from what I understand, are either flat or mostly so. Catholic artifacts tend to be three-dimensional. Actually, we go by the Bible alone, the latest documents of which were completed by the end of the first century, A.D., which out the earliest church falls.
Glory to Jesus
Amen brother!
For me personaly it is very simple. I see The Lord Jesus and i have a smile on my face, When i see Him on the Cross i have a tear in my eye, coz i love what He did for all of Us. When i see saints i feel like i look at an older brother/sister that are inspiration for me. They are like a window to heaven. God bless you Brother
God bless you to brother in the name of the Father Son Holy Spirit
@@John2028Apologetics in His Name we trust
Icons are a historical record of the church. It does not makes sense that we could see Jesus on earth, but we cant see him now? How is seeing a picture of him different than seeing him physically present? If others were allowed to experience God's works on earth than we can also. The reason we did not have an iconographic tradition before the advent of Christ is because you can not properly interpret history apart from Him. Once He revealed Himself and took on flesh we see Him fully in all things.
💯
First of all, thank you for sharing your journey to Orthodoxy. Like you, I am a convert. I am in no way a theologian nor do I have any Church authority. My experience is my own and I hope you and others take it as such.
I like how you used the images/items of a drawn pentagram and Ouji board to illustrate your point. In my experience, I have interacted with many people who ascribe to Christian evangelical faiths (Baptists, etc.). I have noticed that the people I interact with wear or display a cross/crucifix. Either some form of jewelry, hanging it in rooms of their homes and even tattoos. I know that they don't "worship" those works of art, but they do help to serve as a reminder of who they are trying to emulate. Kneeling in front of a cross doesn't mean you are worshipping the cross itself. Displaying an ICTHYS tattoo, a WWJD tattoo or cross on your body doesn't mean that you are worshipping that image. I venture to guess that those images are there to remind those owners that they are of God and they desire forgiveness and a place in the Kingdom. I believe it helps them to have that reminder constantly visible to help them to control themselves and their sinful ways/desires.
Icons in Orthodoxy serve this same purpose. Whether the icon is of Christ or a named saint, it gives us a reminder that we can work to be better. As we strive for theosis, having a "hero" to emulate can be a powerful reminder for us. Just as you pointed out, hanging pictures of storied people from history shows us that high achievement is possible and they give us visual representations/photos to serve as a reminder. I think of the memorials in Washington, D.C. (Lincoln, Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, war memorials, etc.) along with pictures/paintings that adorn our capitol buildings, local government buildings, schools, hospitals, etc. The hospital where my wife works was founded and operated by Catholic nuns. Paintings and photos of the early days of the hospital are present. Does the staff worship those pictures? Absolutely not. However, when they see those images, they can imagine the trials and tribulations those women went through to bring healing and comfort to so many in their community. The staff can then emulate those ideals.
I, for one, will continue to venerate the icons of the Church and look up to my spiritual heroes. I believe they serve as an example to me on how to live my life, grow in my faith and remain steadfast before God.
I appreciate your comment brother and your examples as well makes sense to me. Thank you for watching my video and giving me feed back means alot. God bless you in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit
Great presentation! Sometimes our protestant cousins are unkind here in the comments, I try to approach them in a spirit of charity.
I appreciate it! Yes they get frustrated I have a multitude around me personally. I pray they all come to God's true church.
@@John2028Apologeticsare you getting my posts? They keep getting deleted. Tag my name so I know you are getting them.
I’m currently watching the video right now brother but I’d like to type my view I understand the feelings we can have when in front of images of the Lord, scripture & saints & so I think it’s alright to have them in our houses & see them bc they can assist us in our faith
However I am not necessarily in-tune with the bowing to them , as I know God is the God of the living & non of our brothers and sisters in Christ will remain dead, I see bowing & speaking / praying to non physical people as a transgression against the Lords commandment of Leviticus 26:1 (as the lord tells me quite clearly to not bow down to images) & 1 Thessalonians 5:22 bc even if they are alive in Christ the “argument” could be how does that look to the people who aren’t understanding of such teachings ?
I know it’s tradition & some would argue me many church people have done it & gotten results but as of rn ima scripture over tradition type of person .
As I stated I believe it’s okay to have the icons and such in our houses but to bow and pray to them it doesn’t seem the Lord wills us to do that as much as men
I’d also like to hear your thoughts on this brother 👇🏾
••••
###Praying to the saints
& I understand how some of our brothers believe saints can intercede for prayers and such but I just don’t see any scripture in the Bible to support their view as 1 Timothy 2:1,5
Not, you can pray to a saint because he alive with Christ & then Christ will be the one to take it to the father it just doesn’t make sense because it says “there is one mediator between God & men, the man Christ Jesus” so why couldn’t we just remain with Christ ? & so if they alive with Christ why not just remain praying to Christ when the reason they be at all is because of him?
& When we pray to the saints in Christ, we are speaking to people in the spirit world, which is both consulting a familiar spirit and necromancy
& praying to the lord for the dead I think that’s okay however I don’t think praying to the saints directly is okay maybe it’s better to pray to the Lord for him to send a saint?
Just my thoughts & etc , i hope I haven’t struck the wrong nerve & for you to respond to this with your side
I’m still watching the video brother !
Absolutely not striking a cord, I really appreciate you watching and giving your thoughts!
Sorry, but you are wrong brother.
Joshua 7:6 - Joshua fell down to the earth before the ark. The ark symbolized God's presence, he wasn't worshiping a wooden box. This is an object made of wood and material matter just as an icon is.
Daniel 10:9 - Daniel bows his head, literally prostrates to the ground before an angel. A non physical thing that you said is forbidden.
Psalms 5:7 - But I, by your great love, can come into your house; in reverence *I bow down toward your holy temple.* Notice David bows toward the temple, an icon and type of the prototype and heavenly image, see Hebrews 9:23. The word for bow down here is a verb, 'shachah' in Hebrew, and it's used in Psalm 99:5,9 and in Exodus 20:5 which is a type of Christ's body, the temple in John 2:21.
As far as praying to the saints not making sense, that doesn't determine it's truthfulness and it isn't necromancy. You as a Protestant have a Bible that the reformers removed books from the Bible that contained these truths. Take for example 2 Maccabeas15:12-16 where the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth.
A similar situation happens on the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared alive talking with Jesus. Was this necromancy?
What you have done is divorced yourself from the collective teachings of the Church and the body of Christ by turning away from the full assembly of the church, read Hebrews 12:22-24 where the church is those who have run the race, the Holy angels, the general assembly which is the same chapter describing the cloud of witnesses, the saints of old who are with us.
@@andys3035 I may have divorced myself from your church by a lack of knowledge but from the body of Christ ? Nah i don’t think having differing theological reasoning would mean I am cs there are other churches who interpret the word of God quiet literally following the lord’s commandments more than a tradition of man, ima be sure to do more research though as I’m still learning !
& could you help me understand how praying to the dead in Christ would not be consulting familiar spirits or necromancy (i.e. communicating with the dead for specific purposes) ?
& if we are praying to the saints in Christ is that not speaking to people in the spirit world aka beyond earth ?
& when I said non physical people , I said people & not🙅🏾 thing but to clear the misunderstanding I didn’t mean in terms of angels who of course never died & got rose again I meant non physical people as in people on earth who’ve died and are now living in Christ , why would it be that we pray & bow to them rather than solely just praying & bowing to the Lord Jesus?
& the example you used with maccabees was a dream the difference between that & what happened with Elijah and Moses is Jesus made that happen in reality
@@andys3035 & because we read Joshua after losing a battle pleading with ark which represents Gods presence I’m not entirely sure that justifies us bowing and praying to icons . I understand the idea is we are honoring saints & Jesus , I’m okay with icons of Jesus as he is of course God but I don’t understand how or where saints get the stamp of approval for us to do the same for them
Edit: brothers… I understand the philosophy behind it.
“Mentally, one commits idolatry when they have the intent to worship someone other than Yah as god. The Israelites never possessed that intent toward King David even though they performed the same physical acts toward both.” & so the same would be with the church , not sure this is okay or considered leaning on our own understanding in the eyes of the Lord though I am still learning
what bible translation are you using at 23:07? I don't recognize it, is it some sort of orthodox translation?
The Pharisees could say the exact same thing about their ritual handwashing. No, it’s not explicitly commanded in the Bible, but it’s “tradition.“ I know you probably don’t care, but I’m not sure that I can in good conscience support a purportedly Christian channel, that promote idolatry like this. May God turn your heart to him and lead you to repentance and faith. God bless. Read Exodus 20 and John three.
Read 1 Kings 6, also Exodus 25, Exodus 26, etc it's just like the Orthodox Church. Icons are not idols, stop lying.
@@MaybeJohn7 how is focusing on a two-dimensional picture during prayer any different than focusing on a statue? An idol doesn’t have to be a three-dimensional image. It’s just anything that takes the place of God and our lives.
There are three churches going from the beginning. The Orthodox, the Coptic and the Catholic. All of which use icons but you choose to go by 16th century interpretations. How? How can someone have acces to the writings of the people who compiled the bible, who knew exactly what they meant by their work, but ignore them in favor of going by the theology of Luther who decided by himself to take out 7 books of the bible because they contradicted his doctrine. How can you follow a fat political guru that was sleeping with nuns and not see that he was doing exactly what Mohammed did in order to gain political influence? Luther lived a life of sin, very similar with Mohammed...apart form sleeping with minors...gg Luther I guess.
@@neyneynanamo2071 no, icons are used by orthodox and, from what I understand, are either flat or mostly so. Catholic artifacts tend to be three-dimensional. Actually, we go by the Bible alone, the latest documents of which were completed by the end of the first century, A.D., which out the earliest church falls.
@@neyneynanamo2071 i’m not a Lutheran. Second Timothy 3:16-17.
Nice video. Iconoclasm is cringe
I appreciate it!