Wanted to address some common points I’ve seen in the comments (wall of text warning, but I think this is a nuanced topic which warrants it, also if the rest of this comment doesn’t make sense please finish watching the vid lol): *“I played for XXX hours and haven’t seen much friendly fire griefing, therefore it’s not a big deal”* - I’m glad this video has provided a space for us all to share our own experiences regarding the issue, since realistically all the info I could work with before making this video was 1) my own personal experience, and 2) collecting sentiment by keeping tabs on the subreddit, youtube discourse, etc. Maybe the information I was working with wasn’t an accurate representation of the issue as a whole. a) But we should also recognize that most people in here (who clicked on a DRG video talking about a niche issue) skew towards the “dedicated” side of the playerbase, and that we’re pretty insulated from the general DRG population as a whole. For example, a sentiment I’ve seen numerous times on the subreddit over the course of multiple seasons is that the playerbase experiences a surge in toxicity every time the game goes on sale and a large influx of players comes in (*), but at least for me I never personally notice it based on the types of lobbies I’m hosting. We should be mindful of when we’re trying to generalize our personal experience to a larger part of the population. This is why I felt it was important for my research to include sources like published stats and subreddit trends to gauge other people’s sentiment. I admit these sources won’t paint a fully accurate picture either, but it's better than my anecdotal experience on its own. - (*) reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/19dyhvc/returning_player_why_did_the_game_get_so_toxic/ - (*) reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/19f5e5a/_/kjhp2wj/?context=1, there's many more within the past week that you can find quite easily - (*) a post made after the winter sale a year ago www.reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/117jgni/whats_with_the_sudden_increase_of_toxicity_in_the/ b) Also, survivorship bias - someone who experienced friendly fire griefing and DID feel like it was a bigger deal would’ve also been more inclined to drop the game, and never seen this video. ******* c) I also wanted to re-emphasize my point about Ghost Ship’s great track record of proactively designing Deep Rock to promote camaraderie and minimize toxicity in a co-op game, through bonding moments and rituals and other mechanics. Whether my solution is ideal or not, DRG’s relatively basic and uninspired implementation of friendly fire just seems to stick out for a dev studio that prides itself on “making games that take co-op to the next level” (ghostship.dk/about/). I would really hope that Ghost Ship is internally researching, discussing, and ideating on this topic more than some random UA-camr who just plays the game a lot. These are the types of interesting problems that a self-proclaimed "co-op first" studio could bring fresh and innovative solutions to. *“Friendly fire reflection would hurt more than help, [especially on higher hazard levels where there’s a higher FF multiplier]”* - If you're consistently downing teammates twice or more times per mission, which is when my proposed system would start “punishing” you heavily, I guess my advice would be to try to work on building team awareness so this doesn't happen as often…? In my lobbies it's exceedingly rare that someone innocently team kills multiple times within a mission, so that's the knowledge I was working off of when creating my proposed system. Regardless, I do take your guys’ feedback to heart though. If my proposed system is indeed too punishing for unintentional teamkills, the system could incorporate cooldowns so reflection doesn’t last for the whole mission or deep dive. - Meter builds up when downing a teammate (or maybe by dealing certain amounts of friendly fire) - After the meter builds up enough, that player get 50% reflection. If the meter continues to grow, it escalates to 100% reflection for that player. - BIGGEST CHANGE: The meter would decay over time and also significantly by reviving players (a griefer wouldn’t revive the vast majority of the time). This would also allow friends to still partake in the PvP battles if they really wanted to. ******I also realized that friendly fire reflection will most likely actually HELP players build awareness as to when they're hitting their teammates. Currently, it can be hard at times to notice when you're dealing friendly fire since the only feedback you get is a dwarf voice line that might get lost in the audio mix. But with my proposed system, if you've reached the point where there's split reflection, it's much clearer when you're damaging teammates since the visual feedback for taking damage is much more obvious. *"If you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool by standing in your line of fire"* - this kind of reverse griefing was something I thought about when making this video, but didn't end up including - someone could camp in a c4 or fat boy radius to try to get reflection to kick in for their teammates. While this would definitely be annoying, I think it's a tradeoff worth taking if the same system can also minimize griefers being able to wipe teams, or at least buy enough time for the host to kick griefers. Also, if I continually down a griefer doing this reverse griefing, sure it's a "them" issue because of their positioning, but I can't help but think that it's also partly a "me" issue that I'm so unaware that I keep managing to hit them. And if it's a repeated pattern of behavior throughout a mission, I think in these scenarios it's pretty warranted to kick them, and the host would have plenty of time to do so, compared to situations where the griefer is the one causing friendly fire damage. *“This feature should be toggleable by the host”* - I’m not the biggest fan of this idea, but it does seem like an okay compromise. Letting the players toggle it on a per-lobby setting would introduce inconsistency to the gameplay and it could be confusing to players, especially greenbeards. I get that we have the “unique classes” toggle that we can switch as host, but I think a friendly fire toggle / friendly fire reflection toggle would lead to much more variance between lobbies. Regardless, I genuinely do appreciate everyone who's come in here and chimed in with their thoughts. We might not fully agree on the severity of this issue, or the ideal solution to it (which doesn't exist, let's be honest lol), but it's great that we're able to get the dialogue going on it - in a relatively civilized way, too. Rock and stone, gamers.
You showed reddit posts as examples, source invalidated. Most, 95+%, friendly fire comes from accidental crossfire during swarms, etc., meaning that your video attempts to solve a nonexistent issue. Moreover, you misinterpret the provided data, bloating the aforementioned non-issue. You presented a solution, which already exists, to a problem that doesn't exist. Your video is... useless shock content.
The worst kinds of greifing for me hasnt been friendly fire, but instead drilling down important mission objectives, this wastes a TON more time and this solution wouldn’t fix it, a different solution like a player reputation system would be more productive taking this into account
@@thespacementv1506 are you a Scout main? because if not, then your perspective is automatically skewed. try playing Scout a lot in random lobbies and see if you don't get a tiny bit tilted at the purposeful downs being directed at you.
when me and my friend encounter a grifer that intentionally trying to drop some of us we do funerals: down the grifer, dig him a hole and let the engi to put a gravestone, meanwhile mocking him. This is like spray water on an animal to make them behave. I wish this tradition became as popular as C4 scout meme.
So you're basing your sources that the game has gotten more toxic from Reddit? And you really don't see the bias presented in their mutant ability to be easily offended at just about anything?
There are a few things I would like to highlight: The downed to friendly fire stat does not tell us specific information. It tells us that players are downed via damage from another dwarf, but no nuance of it. By Hazard? by how much? On Hazard 5 where friendly fire is 70%, and players only get 10% of HP after revival... it takes almost nothing to cross that threshold. It can't be concluded that because there are a lot of friendly fire downs, that players are intentionally killing their teammates. Ingame experience says its almost entirely accidental, and mostly from higher Hazards where Friendly Fire scaling is significant enough to be worth caring about. Newer players who come into the game with the intention to grief and ruin it for others 1. won't make progress anywhere near as fast, being kicked, failing missions, and being unable to connect to a growing number of players means they have to ignore a lot of negative pushback and ineffective attempts just to start harming missions with Friendly Fire... and also get 10% or 0% progress ontop of not accessing higher payouts yet. 2. Unlocking Haz 5, finding missions where players are not going to shrug it off is even rarer [lower Hazards are 10% per Hazard level, ie Haz 4 is 40% and Haz 2 is 20% damage, and revive health scales as well Haz 1 is 60%, 2 50%, 3 40%, 4 20%, players in Hazard 4 and consistently in Hazard 5 are going to have fully upgraded gear ie higher base HP, damage mitigation effects by loadout, IW and Dash adding the ability to get back up anyways or dodge the damage and kick/down then kick the offending griefer] 3. Even if they persist, still find missions to join, get put with only unaware greenbeards who rushed Haz 4/5 early, have spent the time actually playing to get gear capable of teamkilling, have nobody using Friendly Fire, AND manage to kill the entire team without IW, anyone tanking/dodging the damage source, or getting sussed out before their attempt... A vast majority of players in that situation have a negative experience, but also know its the rare exception rather than the rule. Building on that last point, are you familiar with the concept of Survivorship Bias? When is the last time you saw someone talk about how they *did not* get teamkilled in their missions? The reason you see posts of it on places like Reddit, is because is concentrates those rare instances where its more than a momentary issue that gets shut down hard. There is no feedback when everything is normal, only on few times that is not. Now, that's not to say putting in failsafe's for the rare occurrence [that someone is capable, has the desire and opportunity to, and gets away with intentionally teamkilling enough to be disruptive] is a bad idea. But devils advocate here... if you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool. Get downed, run infront of your ally's fire twice and now they can't hurt you no matter how much damage you do. Then kicking them asap is the only way to limit their harm done. Or what about Hazard 5 where a few friendly fire deaths are the norm. Scout dives in mid dread fight, gunner's minigun fire hits them and downs them due to its DPS and on Haz 5 doing 70% damage. Its impossible to fully avoid it, and using Friendly to reduce it means giving up more powerful perks for something that is usually a non-issue... Now that interaction becomes unintuitive, and can be frustrating for players who were previously fine. But criticism should always be constructive... We could scale up the criteria for reverse friendly fire, but the main threat of friendly fire griefing is not sustained damage but bursts that do enough harm to fail a mission. If the criteria is instead 3 friendly downs in one mission, then the single instance of damage needed [ignoring IW, dash/resistance, etc of course which denies it] is irrelevant. If its instead something that sticks with players, it has to be kept track of externally [otherwise malicious players would get around it with cheating... though if they are willing to go that distance, Friendly Fire griefing is the least of our problems] and could easily harm players on higher hazards who will accumulate friendly fire downs via the nature of DRG's gameplay. What about a light but hidden Trust Factor. Players who get Kicked a lot have a hidden client value, which if it reaches a high enough frequency over a given # of missions played then starts restricting how many missions they can see in the terminal to join [either displaying less, or giving a specific error screen when trying to join a % of available missions] then just ignore posts about that unique case knowing they had to have been consistently kicked from most of their missions.
Lots to talk about, really appreciate the in-depth comment. "If you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool" - this kind of reverse griefing was something I thought about when making this video, but didn't end up including - someone could camp in a c4 or fat boy radius to try to get reflection to kick in for their teammates. While this would definitely be annoying, I think it's a tradeoff worth taking if the same system can also minimize griefers being able to wipe teams, or at least buy enough time for the host to kick griefers. Also, if I continually down a griefer doing this reverse griefing, sure it's a "them" issue because of their positioning, but I can't help but think that it's also partly a "me" issue that I'm so unaware that I keep managing to hit them. And if it's a repeated pattern of behavior throughout a mission, I think in these scenarios it's pretty warranted to kick them, and the host would have plenty of time to do so, compared to situations where the griefer is the one causing friendly fire damage. "Or what about Hazard 5 where a few friendly fire deaths are the norm" - something I just realized is that my system might help players be more aware of when they're dealing friendly fire damage. In the heat of combat, sometimes it's hard to notice when you're dealing friendly fire since the only feedback you get is a dwarf voice line that might get lost in the audio mix. But if you've reached the point where there's split reflection, it's much clearer when you're damaging teammates since the visual feedback for taking damage is much more obvious. "What about a light but hidden Trust Factor" - I think this could be a great alternative approach, but for it to work best it seems like it would have to be implemented server-side, which is something the devs seem pretty resistant to - it's why we don't have cross play or cross progression or save transfers. Valid points about confirmation bias and the Year in Review stats not painting the full picture - intentional friendly fire griefing vs accidental vs friends goofing off with PvP. It's definitely the vocal minority of players who experience this griefing who are compelled to write about it on reddit. Based on what I've noticed (super scientific, I know) it does seem like discourse on this topic has grown over time which is why I felt it was worth addressing, especially with recent events such as the dev stream I quoted and the stats.
@@chanceIIorsI won’t cut into your guys’ debate, I just more think that this is a really healthy response to a really healthy counterpoint to what you said! It’s always nice to see people being cordial online :) As an aside, I play DRG off and on (about to pick it back up for a month or two or three tonight) and I’m a driller main; though I dont C4 randos really, if im in call with a scout that scout isn’t making it onto the drop pod without an attempted murder. I always pick them back up, and on haz five I don’t do it at all cuz im still not that great and all my focus is on surviving and winning, and I also think that tensions can run higher on haz five so it’s best not to even jokingly kill people on purpose, but despite all these restrictions I give myself to try to keep it light hearted, maybe I should think more about doing it. Cuz you’re right, the ones who laugh the most aren’t the ones who are targeted, it’s me and the others. So thanks for giving me something to think about!
@chanceIIors If the reflection flags could be triggered by joining cheaters, that does sound like it could be pretty bad. A cross match trust system could mitigate the rare occurrences even further, but I think approaching it from within the game's mechanics is a better exercise. Your video was good and I particularly liked the section where you ranked the grieving options based on how recoverable they were. That said, I think you missed an opportunity to clearly state your 2-downs-to-full-reflection system would solve the total team wipe with 1 C4 which I'd say is the biggest target to grief, especially since everyone has to bunch up at drop pods and blackbox objectives. It's rare, but having the possibility that a driller can just backstab the entire team with one c4 in a second if you decide to bunch up just doesn't have to be in the game. It'd be a tall order for engineer, but both the gunner (with a shield) and scout could recover such a situation with good chances on Haz 5 if they're the last to be considered hit by the explosion (so probably a matter of ping, they could force it to consider who has the most remaining health). You could shift the system's scale based on player count, too. 2 downs for 4 players, 1 down for a 3 player session and full reflection anytime only two players are in match. As players join or leave a match in progress you can adjust the reflection status, probably favoring to remove reflection as players join as opposed to enforcing reflection if a player drops, unless maybe when the team drops to two players. Oh, also forgot to add that friendly fire reflection might seem a little goofy, but I kind of like to reason it as being in theme with the dwarves threatening to retaliate in a lot of their friendly fire dialogue.
Love this in-depth reply... and wondering if it might be addressed by being able to turn off the reverse friendly fire in lobbies where you know everyone there? or where you don't think it could be a problem (knowledgeable host, friend group, etc.). Then you get to play it as intended and not worry about unintended repercussions?
Play as scout and see how long you go without a driller trying to kill you. Even as gunner, I still get attacked by drillers, usually when they're even slightly inconvenienced, but sometimes completely randomly. Trying to level up scout now, geez. It's relentless. I've taken to pull out my carbine and snipe drillers from a distance when they throw their c4 at me and miss, but teammates get him up right away. I almost feel like giving them a timeout, taking the fun out of greifing, is the only way to teach these trolls.
The FF Reflection could work, BUT I think the "victim" should choose, if reflection should be activated after getting downed. Once my engineer friend downed me by emptying the LOK-1 clip into my badly-positioned scout ass instead of Opressor's that he locked on to, and It was my fault, not his. And if reflection would automatically kick in after such incident - that could still have negative impact on scenarios where you have to save teammate from leech/grabber
I think there's merit to your suggestion, but I do also wonder about the implications of passing off this decision making to the player instead of it just being "the rules" enforced by the game. 1) If you give the responsibility to the player who has been downed ,now they have to figure out "Hmm okay did I get downed by accident or on purpose? Did that really warrant reflection or should I let it slide?" It's not a huge dilemma that players will struggle with, but it might distract them from being ready for a revive, thinking about whether to iron will or not, thinking about the best course of action once revived, etc. 2) Reverse trolling - let's say you earnestly tried to save your teammate who was leeched, but you ended up downing them. That teammate accidentally or intentionally chooses for reflection to kick in for you. You'd feel mad that you were punished by THAT PLAYER when you were only trying to help, and this might escalate into further negative sentiment or an argument with that other player. If instead it was just how the game was designed and that's why reflection kicked in, you couldn't really be mad at that person you were attempting to save. I do admit there's advantages to your suggestions as well. The more I think about it, I don't know if THE perfect solution to this issue even exists, there's always tradeoffs and edge cases to each approach.
giving the victim the ability too consider iff they got griefed or not can give a moment of reflection(pun not intended). Wherin they can figure out, "oh hey this guy is a greafer, lets kick him!". @@chanceIIors
@@chanceIIors I think a "reputation" system would be nice. In CSGO/CS2, players that receive significance amount of griefing reports will eventually unable to find matches quickly, and when they do they will automatically get muted in-game. So I think we could add a similar system that tracks and records how many time a player damage or down teammates, and then add "reputation required" for joining a game. If this number get higher than normal then bad reputation kicks in and said player cannot join rooms that require higher reputation. Additionally, players with bad reputation will have the friendly fire reflect turned on so they cannot cause further damage. As for how reputation point is calculated, each teamkill or reports from other players will subtract it, while successful missions or thumbs up from others will increase your reputation. I read about how devs dislike implement things to server only after I wrote of all that, so it's kinda pointless but I will leave my thoughts here anyway lol. As for me I usually only play solo or with my friends, so I'm not too familiar with how bad toxicity in randoms is. I remember there was one time when I play with 3 greenbeards, they activated the bullethell machine event while doretta is running and all of them downed. The host cancelled before I could even try to revive them. That and the fact that servers in Asia region sucks discouraged me from playing randoms a bit.
The number of times someone jumps in front of my minigun or flame thrower after i started firing is insane. I’m constantly holding fire as they’re criss crossing. The number of times i’ve tossed a c4 at a target and then someone sprints in for a power pickaxe attack is also nuts. The target moves on and then i have to run in to recover the useless c4 after.
True, so true. That's why i mostly run full berserker driller with cryo gun. It's just safe. And i use mostly c4 to hold it in air with throwables, or to create a bunker under the triangulation point, so there's only one hole to shoot, then the team truly tries to avoid friendly damage as much as it is possible.
The new drilling deeper mission and C4 is useful though with little risk to team. I’ve started throwing c4 on the wall going down and when we are out of range and all the bugs are on top of C4 I detonate
I wouldnt put too much effort into this, i used to play league of legends, and when the developers start acting as social behavior police, the game goes down in a blaze and draws in more toxic behaviors that then become policed, like handing out bans for swearing or "harassment". Trust me, this is something that you dont want. Just kick toxic players whenever they rarely show up, and try to play with people that you trust, simple as that.
Yeah this happened in R6, team killing used to be something you could do freely but they gradually began punishing players for doing it and now there's a reputation system that rewards and punishes you for good and bad behavior, the problem is that you can easily get spam reported by those same toxic teammates and if it happens enough it can straight up lock you out of competitive game modes
I encountered a guy who deliberately pulled the mule away from the team while they were fighting a horde during a low oxygen mission. We only survived because I was playing scout and was able to catch up to the mule. After his plan failed he immediately quit and I had to get past a horde to save my teammates.
Sometimes i just fuck around with my close friend who mains scout(and i main driller), but i think it's not ok to meme around this way with strangers, especially when this game relies so much on cooperation
you just gotta feel the vibe of the mission or other players. if you get the vibe that a player is NOT in the mood for getting c4'd as a joke, then i wouldn't do it.
I play engineer with the fat boy. Irregardless of my actions scouts still will somehow find a way to fly into my blast radius irregardless of my level of caution. A scout seeing a nuke grenade flying is like a moth to a flame unfortunately.
Across 500 mission hours, I have encountered 2 trolls in DRG. I primarily play on Haz5 with the mentality of speedclearing the mission. One was a driller that mined the Doretta fuel canisters in a straight line down, and another was a scout blatantly cheating. Maybe Haz5 weeds out the low level trolls. Maybe it's more frequent in slower paced lobbies where the effects griefing are more punishing. From my experience, 2 griefing instances isn't enough to really demand much change to friendly fire. But if I had to, my solution would be a Y/N prompt whenever you are downed to friendly fire. The downed player would determine if the player intentionally did or didn't kill them, if yes, then it calls a kick vote for the rest of the team to decide. If not, that's the end of it.
The only time I’ve seen griefing was someone who took 3 of 4 supplies and kicked me after I took one. This was on like haz 3 so I think there really are just very few trolls in the community
I like that idea. It’s very simple and doesn’t change game mechanics. But I think the ability to votekick should be present even when the player isn’t killed via friendly fire, somewhere next to the Settings menu in the main menu as a separate button that could be used to start a votekick whenever necessary.
I have almost 1k hours of mission time and I join random lobbies from haz 3-5, depending on what's available, and I have encountered only a VERY small amount of deliberate team kills, much less so malicious ones. I have definitely seen a fair share of toxic players, but team killing really isn't a tool they seem to use.
just want to add to this in case any new players are put off by this video, around 1000hrs myself on both the console and steam versions (90% of which has been played with randoms), I can count on 1 hand the amount of actual griefers I've encountered. The meme of driller killing scout is really annoying when it happens, but it very seldom does happen
I don't see a problem with his response honestly. If he answered like that to a more severe issue I would agree it's an immature response, but the TK "problem" isn't really a problem.
They could, add a personal ban list. Assholes that fail teams, will get on enough personal ban lists that they will not be getting in any games. I have only met a fail team person once. Sadly they were a legendary+ player .
As a scout main I fully support toxic drillers because its the most effective way to teach greenbeard scouts the importance of being able to grapple out of trouble at a moments notice.
Big point to note when you're talking about friendly fire in lower haz, you're completely off-base. Friendly fire in lower haz isn't because the griefer can't make it to higher haz, it's that they are bored. Me and my friends normally run haz 5 on the mission with both warnings and whenever we're running something too easy someone gets an itchy trigger finger.
I've always been annoyed at purposeful friendly fire, even if its just a few shots. Like, we're playing a cooperative game where I am legit willing to risk the entire mission to save my teammates just for the sake of winning together. No other game can do that.
The only potential problem with that would be something like radiation from fat boy. If you count a kill from that as FF, then someone might avoid using it after getting one teamkill because 50% of the radiation damage still is a lot. If you decide not to, then a griefer could irradiate certain things like the drop pod before everyone gets there or dotty so nobody can repair her.
That why friendly fire reduction is actually best for engineer, he the one actually dealing a lot of direct damage in a AOE while hawing a lot of ammo to it, with soldier you actually not do much damage but have a lot of ammo so you actually just maybe hit a friend 2 Time but it's hard to actually deal damage without wanting to hurt them directly, with driller well except for the C4 everything work by AfterEffect so you don't deal a lot if not at all to Friends, and the C4 are really in limited ammo number so again, it's hard when you don't actually want to deal damage to a Friend to actually damage them, and scout is only good to direct damage, and if you contribute to the battle, dealing damage is not your priority as a scout anyway.
I don't think out of all of the games I've played I've ever encountered anyone who activley tried to throw the game or teamkill me or anyone else on the team. I think the friendly fire stat most likely comes from accidents or friends just fucking around. I don't think it's a big enough issue to warrant an entirely new mechanic
He's just making shock content. I have played this game non stop and only ran into it twice. Literally just kicked the guy and went onto finishing the mission.
People always talk about the C4 team kills but I think it's way funnier doing it with the Deep Core Grenade Launcher Hyper Propellant overclock. Then your mate is not only dead but they also know you took the time and skill to aim at them while they grapple-slingshot through the cave. In all seriousness tough I have never lost a mission due to griefing and the few times I got exploded right in front of the drop-pod were quite funny. I can absolutely see how there might be a few people C4'ing the entire team at the very end of a mission but usually it turns into a heated 1v1 while waiting for molly instead.
As someone who thinks the "Driller C4s the Scout" meme is hilarious, I would _never_ even dream of doing it to randoms. Farthest I ever go with randoms who seem chill is randomly put a C4 at my feet when we're all standing together during a slow moment, and see everyone's reactions. Usually they all scatter but one guy just came up to my face and nodded, so I blew us both up XD But again, I would never do that when the mission could be put on the line. I'm all for funny jokes and gags but not at the expense of "the vibe", and I've been on the receiving end of intentional C4 when it wasnt being used as a joke, it's not fun.
I blew up the scout only once, and that was when we were fighting with the dreadnought and everyone ran out of ammunition for all weapons and there was no nitra in the cave at all. The explosives finished off both the scout and the dreadnought.
"oh? you're approaching me? explosives placed" also devs need to do nothing about this. it's a lost knowledge of online play, but toxic people will eventually be left with nobody wanting to play with them. dev interference is exactly what lead to the downfall and heavy censoring of online gaming. no intervention is needed from authority, the community can handle it, especially in such a light game as drg where leaving is not punished in any way and save files can be edited
Unfortunately, I have downed other dwarves by accident. I whip a turret, sometimes the explosion hits something close and downs a team mate. I get locks with the lok-1 and a team mate jumps into the path. A blue jellyfish things fly's into my sights when I fire off a fat man. About to shoot the butt of a dread with hyper propellent, and a team mate zig zags right in front of me. A swarm is crawling towards me, and another dwarf is in the process of getting eaten, and I have no choice with the arc cutter. I shoot myself up with rj250 as someone walks up to me. Set up some platforms as land mines for the shard diffractor. Driller gets close to what I am aiming at and he gets blown up. That is just with engi. With the gunner with my overclocks with the missile launcher in cramped spaces also kill me just as much. With driller in tight quarters my flamethrower, and cryo cannon end up causing some severe damage. I don't mean it, and I try to avoid it, but shit happens. I am a very unlucky dwarf in general. Half the time I kill myself more than anyone else. I always say sorry when it happens. Even if taking the moment to type kills me instead.
One time a teammate got carried away by a grabber. I was going to free him with a few shotgun shots, but forgot I had switched to the grenade launcher. I built it for max direct damage too and hit him square in the face. He got free... from the mortal coil😅
Friendly fire adds to the immersion and strategy/teamwork of the game. Removing it would be lame. However, I see no reason why they couldn't add a check box to turn friendly fire on or off when hosting a game and let the players choose.
I think this is an idea that comes from good intentions, but I can see it quickly just becoming "meta" for everyone to turn friendly fire off if they had the option, there's not downside and only upside when you remove the challenge of friendly fire from the game. The game becomes safer yes, but in the process a core component of the combat loop is carved out completely. This is one of the main reasons why I don't prefer to use the "No Friendly Fire" mod, and why I don't think that mod is a good solution to the issue. I also think letting the players toggle it on a per-lobby setting would introduce inconsistency to the gameplay and it could be confusing to players, especially greenbeards. A player might also develop bad habits if they play with friendly fire off for too long and then swaps over to a lobby with it enabled.
The Friendly perk exists, doesnt turn it off completely and does cost a perk slot, but if you rly dont wanna accidentally hit your teammates with a Fatboy, itll do the job.
Just last week, my scout main playing partner lost three EDDs due to team killing in his random lobbies. We ended up running it as a duo, and he marveled at how much easier the elite deep dive is when he's not getting shot, blown up, or chip damaged by his own teams... never mind actually having team synergy with me. It was... eye opening. I've been playing since the start of Season 1 and I've never seen it so bad as it is now. I've always been wary of random lobbies, because of a long history with Rainbow Six Siege before they implemented the friendly fire reflection. It took me a very long time to trust DRG's random lobbies, but I started to, but recent experience makes me more likely to stick with my friends again. I hope the team play first mentality does stick and they do *something* to preserve some aspects of the community they worked so hard to create. It's been interesting as I've recently started playing with some of the GTFO community and the sheer impossibility of doing the missions without real teamwork has shaped that community as well in some of the same ways I have seen in DRG. I don't advocate that route for Rogue Core as it really limits your player base, but... yeah... I hope some lessons get learned through all this. It's interesting seeing the comments here... both the denials and the other ideas as well as some folks who are outright looking for 'better' ways to grief other players. The sub-Reddit seems overrun with meme lords, lately, too. It's... discouraging.
In Rainbow Six Siege, there is a similar reverse friendly fire mechanic. The game also lets you choose if the teamkill was an accident or on purpose, so if it was an accident, the teamkiller wont get the reverse damage.
Most of those downs can be unintended. I remember when me and my friend were fighting a dreadnought. It was aggroed at my friend so I decided to reposition myself. And this is what happens: my friend shoots at the dread (it was hiveguard) at the exact moment I decided to dash. So I jump and catch his bullet with my skull which ends me while dread mauls friend to death.
Here's my proposed alterations to the Reflect, instead of one team kill permanently reflecting all damage, instead, if 2 or more players are currently down by your hand, 100% of friendlyfire damageis reflected onto you until both people downed by you are revived. This insures that accidental or good sport friendly kills don't permanently handicap you, but you're still stoped from killing the entire team. It would be really frustrating if me and a fellow driller were just having a bit of fun c4ing and reviving each other at the end of a mission pr when there's down time, and then all the sudden our agreed upon fun is ruined. Or maybe you're someone who is prone to accidentally killing teammates, you shouldn't be heavily punished of that.
As for me, this number is so big because a lot of players play with friends and troll each other. There are a lot of youtubers that play with there companies and they also troll each other. I have 600 hours in game and has met griffer only once. Peresnoly I and my friend in 2 or 3 rounds out of 10 kill each other.
The overuse of the word toxic to describe this is a bit overkill. Friendly fire is going to go up as the game gets more popular. The "driller blows up scout" meme isn't anything close to an issue and at best it's an in joke amongst the community that new players will be confused about then eventually learn about. It's part of the fun of getting more invested in the game is learning all those quirks. Statistically this game would not have the good reputation for being nontoxic if the friendly fire griefing was a big issue. Someone who would drop the game because of 2 instances of being downed (a game they likely paid for) is also likely someone who would drop it at a mission failure of natural causes or just not "vibing" with it. All sterilizing the game does it hurt the long time fans because more often than not new players will come in if the games what they want it to be. It'd be comperable to saying "minecrafts desert temples are toxic because players wont understand why they're dying and they might find it frustrating and quit the game as a result." All a hyperbolic title like this does is seek to blow a near non existent problem out of proportion then swoop in with a supposed solution when in reality the problem was negligible at best.
I once had a moment where i'm the driller I saw a morkite vein on the wall I combo dash c4 throw but the Scout came from nowhere and just caught up in it. We all had a great laugh.
While it would prevent an endgame team wipe, it would likely lead to another problem. That being hosts purposely kicking other players after the objective so they only get 25% of their rewards, much like some assholes have done in Team fortress 2 mann versus machine mode before
Please no, if you played Helldivers 2 then the game lets you kick even when extraction is already there, there is a problem where a-hole hosts just kick everyone when the mission is complete so you don't get any rewards for your work.
I've been playing with randoms more recently than I used to, so I cant rly say what it was like in the early days, but by and large I really dont think friendly fire is a significant problem as things stand. I can think of 1 example where a relatively green teammate killed me because they didnt know what I was doing, aside from that I dont think I remember the last time I got intentionally teamkilled. Now, accidental chip damage? Yes. Forgetting I'm running fire dmg while in a praetorian cloud? Absolutely. Fatboy missfires? Without a doubt. Stepping in front of a dreads open weakpoint? Yep. Fatfingered grenades? All the fcking time. Shit just gets hectic, bullets fly, occasionally theyll fly towards you.
Now that you mention grenades, I'm willing to bet a large portion of those kills are the damn driller saw grenades, those things are absolute accidental teamkill machines, half the time I try to use them I even end up killing myself with it lol
Jumping in front of teammates and tanking bullets at low hp to build Friendly Fire reflection would be a really funny way to grief while also being a victim in the teams eyes until you get to the funny part where you open fire and everyone kills themselves. I approve of this change /s
Interesting pov, although for me drg is the least toxic game i have ever played. High death ratio from friendly fire might be due to intentionally killing your teammate when very near drop pod or even in drop pod when the mission is completed anyway. I don't see it as a bad thing, also people in random lobbies seem to be cool about it as well. I have never encountered getting intentionally killed in the middle of the game. I think friendly fire is important aspect of the game, as you have to position well, especially on higher hazard levels. 99% of greybeards type simple 'r' or spam ping with ctrl to tell that they are ready for some objective. Ofc sometimes misunderstanding happens, but as mentioned in the video its almost never due to intentional desire to grief your team.
i'm pretty sure the reason it 'grew' is because people got better at the video game, and die less to fall damage and enemies as it's percentage based, and you cant go above of below 100% here, that'd have the perceived effect of 'more deaths by friendly fire' even if friendly fire also went down in numbers, but by a lesser amount than the rest
I've experienced close to zero intentional friendly fire kills outside of end-of-mission fun, but a lot of early button pushing or disregarding machine events.
Its a timeless debate, and it can't really be stopped or "fixed." Just learn to live with it. You either have no friendly fire, and the game is super easy with no team awareness needed, or you have it, and there will be trolls even though they are far and few between here. Just kick immediately if they offend you, and block them so they don't show up in your lobby anymore. Its that simple.
Well, my friend playes as a scout with a rifle, and I can say, that not intentional kills is a thing, when you oneshot other dwarfs in a Haz 5 missions. Yep, sometimes he is trolling as, and we are trolling him, but often it is completely unintentional, and I wouldn't liked if my full hp scout died because of lag or not good movment from me. (And it's really from me, I just love vampire on a driller too much). Plus, I play with randoms often, and there are like no teamkillers. Greenbeards who leave, because they don't want to wait for a minute for me to safely res them - a lot. Guys who got fed with last season and don't want to clean roxpox - a lot. Teamkillers - maybe one was sus, but it's all in a 10 hundred hours. Accidental kills tho.... A fucking ton, especially on a Haz 5 when you can kill a dwarf even with sluge gun or subata to the head.
I have 1200 hours in game and have completed 1336 missions. I can count the times I've had a negative experience with others players literally on one hand. I'm not discounting the point youre making but my experience tracks with the vast majority of players. And that this feels a bit like the making of a mountain when it truly is just a mole hill. DRG has fostered one of, if not the best, communities in the history of coop gaming. This by its own nature weeds out griefers. And FF reflection even with only 50% would wipe a team more, especially on haz 5 where health is rarely full, than griefers have ever done.
7:51 - I agree here. I've recently started playing Scout and I've gotten C4 bombed by toxic Drillers in half the pub games I've played but I still agree that friendly fire is kind of important to the soul of the game. I like that I don't just get to mindlessly spray and pray into a glyphid horde because I might hit my teammates. Only thing I don't like about your reflection suggestion is that it still gives a free pass to a toxic driller who wants to blow up a teammate for the memes with his C4. There needs to be a mechanic to dissuade this. I would recommend also adding a "Revenge" mechanic. If a teammate downs you, they get a unique debuff where the next friendly fire damage they take from THAT specific teammate that they killed will one-shot them. However, this can be "forgiven" by the victim by simply saluting the perpetrator in case they believe it was accidental. ... of course the simpler solution would be to just significantly reduce the damage C4 can do to teammates...
As a scout main, I'm not seeing much toxic behaviour and we're the ones exposed to the highest amount of FF. I really do agree with Aaron on it not being a big enough problem to be worth switching their focus to. The developers only have so much time and resources to put into the game and personally I'd much rather see more overclocks, skins, emotes, biomes and so on. To clarify, I do believe toxic FF is a problem. It's just a pretty minor one.
Once we had a Driller on our team who downed teammates om purpose. And you know what? When they died, we just... Didn't res them. No toxicity in chat. No kicking. Just... Left behind. Where they belong. Now I happened to kick a toxic player just once (lvl 40+, always host). Others just... Weren't toxic, that's how good the community is.
One time when I was playing scout, this gunner would at random start shooting me. He was being really weird about it, most of the time just shooting me for a little bit and then stopping. I initially just thought it was by accident and ignored it, but it was getting obvious that it was intentional. At one point I got sick of it and starting shooting back, leading to a duel which I ending up winning. When I downed him I was taunting the shit out of him, acting like I was going to revive him and stopping just before I could, and pointing at him with my scanner. Everyone else on the team must have known what happened, because they all starting doing the exact same thing. All the while the gunner was constantly asking to be helped up. Bro quit after a while, and we all saluted.
Its honestly one of the best parts of the game. In random lobbies, ill admit im a little bit of a troll, but I would never throw a mission. I much more of a troll if in in a discord vc and were all screwing around on a low haz level
I honestly don't agree with this video. Through my many years of playing DRG, I've only ever had beef with one person. This person randomly downed people for no reason, made the stupidest decisions and was overall just obnoxious. I was standing at the drop pod with him, waiting for the others. I was typing in chat, then he just guns me down for no reason. That only happening ONCE over like five years should really not warrant a change in how friendly fire occurs. Sure, that guy was annoying as all hell, and he got the boot eventually, but that has been my only case, and I don't see why anything should be changed. I just feel that goes a little overboard. EDIT: I spoke with a few people about this, and they have also not had many trolls/toxic players over the span that they've played the game
If you ever get bored, you just raise the hazard level. The amount of beetles grows exponentially by the amount of players there in, so you better believe they will reanimate you next time you mess up something, and there's already an solution - just kick them out of the lobby. Not that anyone would be ever a such buzz off, to get on some one nerves to such a extent, especially when you're playing driller by yourself. Even if someone shot you, there's 50/50% they would expect you to get angry - so least don't give them reason to do it.
2 downs is far too little for deeprock, especially on haz 5 where you revive on 10% health. i feel like if reflection is added, each player should be able to choose when to turn on and off reflection with a hotkey after they get hit. it could also maybe even apply retroactively too. so you could press a button after somebody downs you, and your dwarf gets back up again, yells "you bloody leaf loving-knife ear!" and the person who shot you just immediately dies from shame
I think something that can improve this idea is the friendly fire detection system (ffds) would have 3 critiria; total damage delt to hp, total damage delt to sheilds, and how many times youve downed team mates. The threshhold for hp damage would be lower than that of the sheild threshhold, brcause sheilds regenerate on there own accidental ff would be generally more likely to occur to a team mates sheild. The sheild threshhold must be high enough to allow for mistake while not so high that a greifer can continually break sheilds leaving team mates constantly vulnerable with no punishment. For ho the number must be high enough so that if you accidentally break team mates sheild and deal some hp damage, or if team mate is very low hp and you accidentally down them because they had 15hp, that happening a few times wouldnt trigger the ffds. But also low rnough that a greifer shredding team mates hp would stack up rather quickly. Then of course theres downs, the damage reflection is a great idea, i think maybe after 2 downs instead of 1 to give a little more wiggle room but idk. But also i yhink it would be plenty possible for the ffds to register if a team mate is grabbed by a cave leach or macterra grabber. If team mate is grabbed then the ffda would not count ff damage towards the threshholds. Now say a greifer balances the team killing as to not trigger any of the 3 threahholds, what you can do is make a 4th threshhold; ffds total percentage. Think of it like the verified 'ammo percentage mod' each measurement is tracked by percentage out of 100%(0%bring not ff at all and 100% being a threahhold met) so all 3 measaurements woukd total 300%. So if s greifer manages the threshholds and say only does like 50% of each measurement. that would total 150%. This 4th metric would be once a total percentage of ff is surpassed it would automatically enable 100% ff damage reflection
man I understand where you're coming from but keep in mind that in a lot of parties with four friends killing each other like in a mad pvp while the bugs are eating at you is kinda fun XD not all the time of course but when some internal conflicts arise a duel is always the best solution(always and only if playing with friends) nice video by the way
Friendly fire does offer a lot of depth gameplay wise, makes you have to plan your shots and positioning much more especially in higher difficulties and can force communication. While people troll with it, it does serve to make games like this more fun. I would not settle for it being removed as it does add depth to the combat in the game even if some are annoying with it. Nor would I like a damage reflection feature as this is in some ways more abusable than friendly fire in higher hazards. Just imagine your teammate goes in front of you, deliberately gets downed. You think it's a mistake, res them, they turn that on, then they jump in front of you again to ruin your mission. I think it's important to remember that for those that are annoying there is the kick option, and if you really don't like it, there's mods. The most reasonable solution for those that really, really don't like this mechanic would be just implementing an option for lobby owners to disable friendly fire. This option could only be changed in the lobby and not during a mission. This would make everyone happy and would not introduce yet another mechanic that can be abused, and would not take anything away from anyone either.
Another way the FF reflection could word is to judge what percentage of your shots connected with an ally vs an enemy. Higher the FF percent means higher reflection damage. Although this method has some flaws. Maybe it could only trigger FF reflection when the threshold reaches more than 30% towards an ally.
I play driller a lot and I do use the ff perk, mostly because in the heat of the moment it's hard to not accidentally grill your team along with the bugs. Flamethrower doesn't really do that much ff to begin with, it's just an extra precaution. I also try to call out c4 before I blow one, but it does happen on occasion
@@Gumunista I get that. It would have been pretty rock and stone if you tried anyway though. The other 2 dudes were probably chilling in the drop pod securing the mission success :D
It's driller and soldier job to go down teammate, scout is to arrive at the pod, but at the same time, it's way easyer when you are multiple than in solo to return to the drop pod so the question is, why he was in solo ? Most of the time it's just proof that they was no teamplay in the first place.
I was skeptical at first cuz I don't remember experiencing a lot of friendly fire, but you brought up a lot of good points around the halfway point. the only downside to your proposed solution I can think of (other than what everyone else described) is that it would take a lot more time to add than something as simple as "less friendly fire once the objective is done" as mentioned in that stream clip. but I know we're all just speculating anyway
Wall of text incoming.. 3:18 it does not deflect at all, maybe a bit, but not enough to say that his response is bad. I played so far 22,8 hrs (not much, i know) and i only had 1 toxic player who did not even friendly fire, was only saying the n-word and that's pretty much it. Comparing this game to others that are team based (PVE or PVP) it's really less toxic, of course toxicity will forever exist, is a human thing after all. And seeing the state of the game i don't personally think it's 100% top priority to rush in to search for stuff to stop, because they're right, there will be always people who are so dedicated to ruin others that they will always find a way, no matter what, programing a game is no joke, and with less than 100 employees is far harder. And a system that can 100% stop this kind of situations will never exist at all, it's matter of time where they find a flaw, we do have the tools, they're not perfect, but its better than having nothing. I am not saying DRG is perfect or that you're wrong, what i am trying to say it's the main reasons of why it's not their top priority at the moment, and after all you're right, it's quite confusing the fact that is top 3 cause of downs, however it's really hard to just pin down who's doing it on purpose and who is accidental because their loadout is designed to do big boom cause haha gl dealing with huge hordes of enemies with only bullets. And most important thing.. loosing a mission has no penalty, at all, you're against AI anyways, so it won't shit talk you like league of legends for example. I mean sure you must do it again but that's pretty much the only penalty, i am assuming your main issue with it it's when it comes to deep dives (specially elite) which i will 100% understand, and also it can get really annoying when it happens multiple times. So, no matter what they do there always be some flaw, major or little, reflect FF? they'll find a way to take intentional dmg to punish you and also will make explosive builds be total garbage. It's not a bad idea, specially if you can choose when to punish, but again, trolls will always say to punish, even if it's obviously not your fault. We can have the tools, they are usefull, but they should be used with responsability, and no matter what, there will be always people who will use it very poorly or for annoying.
There's this crazy concept called "playing with people you trust" that you must've forgotten about between your first comment and this one - those were my friends telling me to leave instead of throwing the mission trying to save them. Regardless, if you take the dwarf roleplaying "leave no dwarf behind" so seriously that you think the right call was to save my teammates at the end with no Iron Wills left on a haz5.5x2 mission instead of securing the win, maybe with enough playtime you'll see that sometimes it's appropriate to break these so-called "rules". It's okay though I get that nuanced thinking is harder for some folks, especially for someone who tries to compare league of legends toxicity to DRG 💀and clearly missed that I, too, enjoy the combat depth that friendly fire provides at 7:45
@@chanceIIors No, I absolutely know that you couldn't save them, I was making a joke, though I feel like you really should have used different footage for the video, since it kind of sends the wrong message at the end, lol. Rock and Stone!!!
@@chanceIIors I've left teammates behind too, sometimes finishing the mission is far more important. I've only been playing the game for about a month and I still don't feel comfortable playing on hazard 4 that much. My opinion matters (to some extent), but don't take it like I'm calling you a noob, lol. I just simply think that your idea is bad. Making the Devs into social behavior police is awful, and I think that's why the developers blew off the suggestion. It's something that I don't really consider a "massive problem" and one that will eventually sort itself out. A better way to deal with it, than changing core aspects of the game, is when you consistently deal a lot of team damage you get a badge next to your profile name labeling you as a "team killing f*cktard" and you are subjected to community shame and a warning that you might be a crappy player. When someone with this label joins a game there's an automatic kick vote. When they host a game, you can see the label on their lobby. After time with reasonable team damage, it disappears. Simple as that, let the community and players figure it out, the devs have better things to do.
@@chanceIIors When deaths in friendly fire overtake falling damage, we definitely have a real problem on our hands. One thing that I don't think your solution addresses, is teammates jumping in front of your shooting. That's the big thing that I struggle with. I'm just playing the gunner and then the driller jumps over my head, and stands directly in my line of fire. Not only is the team killer a potential troll, but toxic players can start abusing your team reflection damage too. Trolls abuse that in COD too, I used to love watching Kosdff TK, and he did that all the time, intentionally dying to friendly fire a couple of times to get the damage reflection. Like all typical leftist policies, you make something illegal or restricted, and create a host of new problems, that you need to fix with the same solution of making it illegal and restricted, which causes a domino effect of failures across the board.
@@chanceIIors UA-cam deleted one of my comments, because I said a bad word, the overall idea was to create a label that tracks your team damage, and labels you as a "team killer" where other players can see a badge next to your name and avoid playing with you, after a time of playing correctly, the badge goes away. Leave it to the community to fix itself, the devs have better things to do than be social behavior police to grown men playing videogames. I've only been playing the game for about a month, I'm not a noob, but still pretty new. I'm not calling you an id!ot or that you are a noob, I simply think your idea is bad and solves nothing, while creating a host of other problems.
I let you know if i change my mind on my third viewing in a while. Though i could see reduced damage after primary objective is achieved, that's a small change.
obtaining the nuke as engineer has clearly made me main friendly. it just keeps accidentally happening the scout c4 meme also applies to the engineer and the nuke. because of dreadnaugts and scouts shotgun being more effective at close range..
While this system sounds alright on paper, I feel like this would be a bit too punishing for just accidental player downs. Especially when playing driller it’s not exactly easy to avoid friendly fire damage with your flamethrower/cryo cannon. It’s not something that would come into play most of the time but still. Also I feel like this might end up making playing with new players a lot more annoying too if they end up walking into your grenades/c4 due to lack of game sense. Ik for me personally when I was new to the game, I used to die to proximity mines all the time before I realized what they actually were. Being further punished for a noobie’s ignorance/lack of game sense I feel would wind up to more players lashing out at new players and driving them away from the game. That said i feel like this might be an idea that would need to be played around with to get a good feel for and is possible it wouldn’t be as punishing as I think.
one thing i can probably blame on is Sseth's video on deep rock, he mentioned killing scouts around 3-5 times on the video, video is popular to hell, people probably brought the game due to him, and the cult like following of Sseth think the game's all about that, i love his videos but his fans probably are the cause of it, there's been a upsurge of griefers, trols and hackers
I main driller and always host my own missions and have the setting that only allows for 1 of each class so i never have to deal with other drillers c4'ing the team. I would say that in my experience the c4 is the only thing that can become a truly game ruining troll tool as on things like deep scan and salvage operation where the team is grouped up 1 c4 can (intentionally or unintentionally) wipe the whole team. even with other strong team kill options like hyper propellant, fat boy, cryo-cannon, and super cooling chamber, there will always be time to kick the troll before they can ruin the mission completely on their own. My solution would be to just put a cap of a maximum 50% of total health per single instance of friendly fire as this would have zero effect on everything except c4 as it is to my knowledge the only thing that can kill from full health in a single hit. Obviously there are still ways a dedicated troll could kill you with this such as freezing you first with the cryo cannon and getting you low enough that they could kill you with the c4, however the big thing is that it stops them from being able to easily wipe the team in 1 hit before they can be kicked. That would be my solution IF I changed anything, but I think that the system is fine as it is now since missions are relatively low commitment (you dont lose anything other than time for failing). for the most part you can just ban that person and move on with your day, at most you'll lose 10-15 minutes of progress as it's generally not worth it for trolls to spend an hour in a deep dive only to forfeit their rewards to blow you all up at the last minute and lose an hour of their own time too. malicious friendly fire kills are so rare and the c4 being how it is is a part of the game's identity and i dont think it should change. think about people who play with their friends and enjoy blowing each other up, i think there would be more lost than gained if tk precautions were made.
10:00 I think a system similar to planetside 2 would work well. You can do a fair bit to TK dmg in it (higher than most games due to the MMO nature of it) and if you don't stop shooting (not even killing) allies you get your weapons locked for a time. I don't know how it escalates beyond that but I think a base system of locking weapon use would help. For some it would help them learn to slow down and look before they shoot while the trolls get stopped. They could also have it be a dynamic threshold where someone who regularly gets their weapons locked takes less dmg to cause the effect but if they cool off then the limit goes back up allowing for people to learn to not do that without being overly harsh yet still being effective. Further punishment such as locking someone out of random co-op for a few hours, days or a week or more at a time could help for the extreme cases and most wouldn't even know it was there.
My only issue with this is I wouldn't be able to have a pvp battle with my friends anymore without getting kicked, dying or being on some kind of infamous list
when me and my friend encounter a grifer that intentionally trying to drop some of us we do funerals: down the grifer, dig him a hole and let the engi to put a gravestone, meanwhile mocking him. This is like spray water on an animal to make them behave. I wish this tradition became as popular as C4 scout meme.
I think something that may have been overlooked in observing that the amount of friendly fire death has grown is its congruence to the growth of the playerbase. There is a minor growth, and while observing the graph I had made I had the thought the toxicity problem may be solving itself. Consider this: The growth of player kills is much much much closer to the growth of daily active players than those who have purchased the game. Astronomically so. So I theorize toxic players do not find significant enough enjoyment to stick around. Not only that but the amount of player caused death is enough for every other dwarf on any given day, that amount of player caused deaths is either a problem or a feature and I know what I believe.
the issue with this is that you can't have a friendly duel anymore with your friends the easy solution to this is to have a "pardon" system where you can reduce the level of ff reflection your killer has, since this is tracked per player this way, you can have fun ff with your known friends while keeping the same system for strangers this pardon would also be handy if you communicate with a teammate and clear up any mistakes, so the game state could return to default when no one has beef
400+ hours in, mainly playing with randoms, in North America, yet my total "C4 Teamkills in general" Count can probably be counted on one hand, and downs by team damage in general are probably around 20 times. I'm apparently VERY lucky if teamkills common enough to warrant it's own video.
whilst i can see the point of a system like this, i think you are correlating an increase in friendly fire directly with increasing amounts of trolling when it's most likely just an ever expanding userbase, multiple youtubers in the past months have made videos about DRG massively increasing the attention on it and driving more players to it, naturally, this is going to increase friendly fire rates in a game with friendly fire, the stats dont show things like how many of those friendly fire deaths where the people at low health already and getting hit with strays, how many were cos someone wandered into a c4 by accident, or getting caught in a grenade explosion, all these sound like theyde be uncommon but in the chaos that is DRG they are, as im sure you know, prone to happening, and thats not even factoring in the even more likely fact that it's just the expanding user-base, getting together with friends and messing around. However with that said there are some issues with the reflection system in general, for one, activating on kill is extremely worrying given that at haz 5 many people are on extremely low health most of the time, i dont think i see many cases at all where a full team isnt balancing their health at 20% constantly meaning itd be much easier to kill them by accident with stray bullets and grenades inflicting a frankly needless 50% reflection in that case specifically, instead of on kills, i think it should be activated based on the amount of damage youve done to teammates in that mission, this'd help across the board on every hazard level and would solve the issue with yours that drillers and scouts can just...freeze you without killing you to get you killed by a swarm. Without health increasing perks dwarves have something like 20 shield and 125 health at base, so have break point if you deal say 70 damage to dwarves in a mission you get hit with the 50%, and if you do in total enough to kill 1 dwarf and half the health of another, thats when you get full. Now another issue is showing everyone you have reflection, thats a bad idea and only increases the chance of someone griefing you by making you get full reflect and then intentionally jumping into your stuff to get you killed, imo that should be hidden to eliminate that, someone randomly going down already pretty much happens given the chaos and how it can be hard to tell how or why you got killed past "lots of bugs cap'n" so no one would really question if it was due to reflect, whereas if they know the player has reflect, accident or not, they may be more unlikely to want to help a 'griefer' even if it wasnt griefing at all and they just accidentally downed 2 team mates in the multitude of ways you can accidentally kill a team mate as listed further above. I'm not saying I agree with Aarons (Arin?) hard line stance on the matter and a response of looking into it would be better, but theres no perfect solutions and griefers would find new ways, or exploit the other ways, the the ways this introduces...honestly, my suggestion, if you think someone is trolling and intentionally killing you or team mates, instead of reflect damage, instead of adding in entire complicated math systems to track damage, kills, relfected damage whatever, just add a system that upon death press 1 of 2 buttons, forgive or punish, i cant recall the game that has this, but it means that the punishment is then down to the players to toll out, players who can communicate, players who can read the situation and see if it was a troll or if they just accidentally ran into c4, now again, also not perfect cos griefers can then intentionally die and punish the player but it lessens the impact of innocent people getting caught by a system designed to punish them even if everything was accidental
2nd viewing of this video, now with 300 hours playtime, and drillers griefing the scout is especially strange, i don't understand why. And i have had a few lobbies that had a guy that seemingly intentionally was putting down a lot of team damage. Can anyone explain the meme of C4ing the scout? The worst was an engineer with the fat boy overclock. I ate a few throughout the mission, but he attempted to TPK the party in front of the drop pod, and when he failed, and we were endingvthe mission via extraction, he cancelled the game that he was hosting, and thus we all failed the mission and got no reward. Idk what his problem was. I still don't think that the solution is anything that you suggested. I like my social shaming via a sort of dishonorable patch attached their name, a representation of their poor sportsmanship.
I think the best way to deal eith this is to give the host an option to turn on or off friendly fire. You want the classic clusterfuck? Join or make a lobby with friendly fire enabled. You want to be absolutely sure no random troll will ruin the mission (don't join randoms then) then you can look for a lobby with friendly fire off or make one yourself.
Btw since the Friendly perk not only negates friendly fire damage, but self damage too, it's not impossible that self damage related deaths counted as friendly fire related deaths in statistics.
10:16 the issue with this solution, is it wouldn't stop a loser from tpking the party in front of the drop pod. Like the Ghost ship games guy said, if they start taking preventative measures against this, the trolls will just find new ways to troll.
why even have a kick button, then, if griefers always figure out another way? there's clearly no reasonable line to prevent griefing, if this change isn't reasonable
I think reflection, if implemented, should kick in after the 2nd down, not first. There's loads of times where people accidentally run into a driller's C4 without him noticing, or run in front of an engineer's breach cutter shot, etc.
My problem with the argument „use a mod“ is that 1) some people (like me) don’t understand how to find, install, and run mods and 2) some people (like me) play on potatoes that can’t run the mods without exploding
I always host so that I can police rogue dwarves. If someone is being excessively hostile then I wait til the end of the mission, drop pod coming in, then just close the game. No host = forced kick.
Planetside 2 has an admittedly much stricter, but also fairly effective solution to friendly fire. Every player has a stat that tracks how much friendly-fire damage they have done that decays over time. At early thresholds, the player is visibly warned with big red letters on screen that tell them to be more careful in the future. At the later thresholds, the game warns the player that their weapons will be *locked* preventing them from being able to engage in the game for a specific time period before it unlocks again. I myself have been given this warning a few times in big chokehold fights, and have only ever once had my weapons locked in said fights, but that was during my learning period for the game, and with a particular weapon that's kind of easy to accidentally 5-shot burst your own allies with if they run in front of you. Perhaps a somewhat similar system could be employed, but perhaps instead of locking the offending players weapons, the game just kicks them and prevents any rewards being payed out. Maybe in combination with the FF reflection system you mentioned. Maybe the players weapons could in fact be locked, preventing them from hurting other players for a set time period and giving the host enough time to perhaps kick them.
Wanted to address some common points I’ve seen in the comments (wall of text warning, but I think this is a nuanced topic which warrants it, also if the rest of this comment doesn’t make sense please finish watching the vid lol):
*“I played for XXX hours and haven’t seen much friendly fire griefing, therefore it’s not a big deal”* - I’m glad this video has provided a space for us all to share our own experiences regarding the issue, since realistically all the info I could work with before making this video was 1) my own personal experience, and 2) collecting sentiment by keeping tabs on the subreddit, youtube discourse, etc. Maybe the information I was working with wasn’t an accurate representation of the issue as a whole.
a) But we should also recognize that most people in here (who clicked on a DRG video talking about a niche issue) skew towards the “dedicated” side of the playerbase, and that we’re pretty insulated from the general DRG population as a whole. For example, a sentiment I’ve seen numerous times on the subreddit over the course of multiple seasons is that the playerbase experiences a surge in toxicity every time the game goes on sale and a large influx of players comes in (*), but at least for me I never personally notice it based on the types of lobbies I’m hosting. We should be mindful of when we’re trying to generalize our personal experience to a larger part of the population. This is why I felt it was important for my research to include sources like published stats and subreddit trends to gauge other people’s sentiment. I admit these sources won’t paint a fully accurate picture either, but it's better than my anecdotal experience on its own.
- (*) reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/19dyhvc/returning_player_why_did_the_game_get_so_toxic/
- (*) reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/19f5e5a/_/kjhp2wj/?context=1, there's many more within the past week that you can find quite easily
- (*) a post made after the winter sale a year ago www.reddit.com/r/DeepRockGalactic/comments/117jgni/whats_with_the_sudden_increase_of_toxicity_in_the/
b) Also, survivorship bias - someone who experienced friendly fire griefing and DID feel like it was a bigger deal would’ve also been more inclined to drop the game, and never seen this video.
******* c) I also wanted to re-emphasize my point about Ghost Ship’s great track record of proactively designing Deep Rock to promote camaraderie and minimize toxicity in a co-op game, through bonding moments and rituals and other mechanics. Whether my solution is ideal or not, DRG’s relatively basic and uninspired implementation of friendly fire just seems to stick out for a dev studio that prides itself on “making games that take co-op to the next level” (ghostship.dk/about/). I would really hope that Ghost Ship is internally researching, discussing, and ideating on this topic more than some random UA-camr who just plays the game a lot. These are the types of interesting problems that a self-proclaimed "co-op first" studio could bring fresh and innovative solutions to.
*“Friendly fire reflection would hurt more than help, [especially on higher hazard levels where there’s a higher FF multiplier]”* - If you're consistently downing teammates twice or more times per mission, which is when my proposed system would start “punishing” you heavily, I guess my advice would be to try to work on building team awareness so this doesn't happen as often…? In my lobbies it's exceedingly rare that someone innocently team kills multiple times within a mission, so that's the knowledge I was working off of when creating my proposed system.
Regardless, I do take your guys’ feedback to heart though. If my proposed system is indeed too punishing for unintentional teamkills, the system could incorporate cooldowns so reflection doesn’t last for the whole mission or deep dive.
- Meter builds up when downing a teammate (or maybe by dealing certain amounts of friendly fire)
- After the meter builds up enough, that player get 50% reflection. If the meter continues to grow, it escalates to 100% reflection for that player.
- BIGGEST CHANGE: The meter would decay over time and also significantly by reviving players (a griefer wouldn’t revive the vast majority of the time). This would also allow friends to still partake in the PvP battles if they really wanted to.
******I also realized that friendly fire reflection will most likely actually HELP players build awareness as to when they're hitting their teammates. Currently, it can be hard at times to notice when you're dealing friendly fire since the only feedback you get is a dwarf voice line that might get lost in the audio mix. But with my proposed system, if you've reached the point where there's split reflection, it's much clearer when you're damaging teammates since the visual feedback for taking damage is much more obvious.
*"If you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool by standing in your line of fire"* - this kind of reverse griefing was something I thought about when making this video, but didn't end up including - someone could camp in a c4 or fat boy radius to try to get reflection to kick in for their teammates. While this would definitely be annoying, I think it's a tradeoff worth taking if the same system can also minimize griefers being able to wipe teams, or at least buy enough time for the host to kick griefers. Also, if I continually down a griefer doing this reverse griefing, sure it's a "them" issue because of their positioning, but I can't help but think that it's also partly a "me" issue that I'm so unaware that I keep managing to hit them. And if it's a repeated pattern of behavior throughout a mission, I think in these scenarios it's pretty warranted to kick them, and the host would have plenty of time to do so, compared to situations where the griefer is the one causing friendly fire damage.
*“This feature should be toggleable by the host”* - I’m not the biggest fan of this idea, but it does seem like an okay compromise. Letting the players toggle it on a per-lobby setting would introduce inconsistency to the gameplay and it could be confusing to players, especially greenbeards. I get that we have the “unique classes” toggle that we can switch as host, but I think a friendly fire toggle / friendly fire reflection toggle would lead to much more variance between lobbies.
Regardless, I genuinely do appreciate everyone who's come in here and chimed in with their thoughts. We might not fully agree on the severity of this issue, or the ideal solution to it (which doesn't exist, let's be honest lol), but it's great that we're able to get the dialogue going on it - in a relatively civilized way, too. Rock and stone, gamers.
You showed reddit posts as examples, source invalidated. Most, 95+%, friendly fire comes from accidental crossfire during swarms, etc., meaning that your video attempts to solve a nonexistent issue. Moreover, you misinterpret the provided data, bloating the aforementioned non-issue. You presented a solution, which already exists, to a problem that doesn't exist. Your video is... useless shock content.
The worst kinds of greifing for me hasnt been friendly fire, but instead drilling down important mission objectives, this wastes a TON more time and this solution wouldn’t fix it, a different solution like a player reputation system would be more productive taking this into account
@@thespacementv1506 are you a Scout main? because if not, then your perspective is automatically skewed. try playing Scout a lot in random lobbies and see if you don't get a tiny bit tilted at the purposeful downs being directed at you.
when me and my friend encounter a grifer that intentionally trying to drop some of us we do funerals: down the grifer, dig him a hole and let the engi to put a gravestone, meanwhile mocking him. This is like spray water on an animal to make them behave. I wish this tradition became as popular as C4 scout meme.
So you're basing your sources that the game has gotten more toxic from Reddit? And you really don't see the bias presented in their mutant ability to be easily offended at just about anything?
There are a few things I would like to highlight:
The downed to friendly fire stat does not tell us specific information. It tells us that players are downed via damage from another dwarf, but no nuance of it. By Hazard? by how much? On Hazard 5 where friendly fire is 70%, and players only get 10% of HP after revival... it takes almost nothing to cross that threshold. It can't be concluded that because there are a lot of friendly fire downs, that players are intentionally killing their teammates. Ingame experience says its almost entirely accidental, and mostly from higher Hazards where Friendly Fire scaling is significant enough to be worth caring about.
Newer players who come into the game with the intention to grief and ruin it for others
1. won't make progress anywhere near as fast, being kicked, failing missions, and being unable to connect to a growing number of players means they have to ignore a lot of negative pushback and ineffective attempts just to start harming missions with Friendly Fire... and also get 10% or 0% progress ontop of not accessing higher payouts yet.
2. Unlocking Haz 5, finding missions where players are not going to shrug it off is even rarer [lower Hazards are 10% per Hazard level, ie Haz 4 is 40% and Haz 2 is 20% damage, and revive health scales as well Haz 1 is 60%, 2 50%, 3 40%, 4 20%, players in Hazard 4 and consistently in Hazard 5 are going to have fully upgraded gear ie higher base HP, damage mitigation effects by loadout, IW and Dash adding the ability to get back up anyways or dodge the damage and kick/down then kick the offending griefer]
3. Even if they persist, still find missions to join, get put with only unaware greenbeards who rushed Haz 4/5 early, have spent the time actually playing to get gear capable of teamkilling, have nobody using Friendly Fire, AND manage to kill the entire team without IW, anyone tanking/dodging the damage source, or getting sussed out before their attempt... A vast majority of players in that situation have a negative experience, but also know its the rare exception rather than the rule.
Building on that last point, are you familiar with the concept of Survivorship Bias? When is the last time you saw someone talk about how they *did not* get teamkilled in their missions? The reason you see posts of it on places like Reddit, is because is concentrates those rare instances where its more than a momentary issue that gets shut down hard. There is no feedback when everything is normal, only on few times that is not.
Now, that's not to say putting in failsafe's for the rare occurrence [that someone is capable, has the desire and opportunity to, and gets away with intentionally teamkilling enough to be disruptive] is a bad idea. But devils advocate here... if you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool. Get downed, run infront of your ally's fire twice and now they can't hurt you no matter how much damage you do. Then kicking them asap is the only way to limit their harm done. Or what about Hazard 5 where a few friendly fire deaths are the norm. Scout dives in mid dread fight, gunner's minigun fire hits them and downs them due to its DPS and on Haz 5 doing 70% damage. Its impossible to fully avoid it, and using Friendly to reduce it means giving up more powerful perks for something that is usually a non-issue... Now that interaction becomes unintuitive, and can be frustrating for players who were previously fine.
But criticism should always be constructive...
We could scale up the criteria for reverse friendly fire, but the main threat of friendly fire griefing is not sustained damage but bursts that do enough harm to fail a mission. If the criteria is instead 3 friendly downs in one mission, then the single instance of damage needed [ignoring IW, dash/resistance, etc of course which denies it] is irrelevant. If its instead something that sticks with players, it has to be kept track of externally [otherwise malicious players would get around it with cheating... though if they are willing to go that distance, Friendly Fire griefing is the least of our problems] and could easily harm players on higher hazards who will accumulate friendly fire downs via the nature of DRG's gameplay.
What about a light but hidden Trust Factor. Players who get Kicked a lot have a hidden client value, which if it reaches a high enough frequency over a given # of missions played then starts restricting how many missions they can see in the terminal to join [either displaying less, or giving a specific error screen when trying to join a % of available missions] then just ignore posts about that unique case knowing they had to have been consistently kicked from most of their missions.
Lots to talk about, really appreciate the in-depth comment.
"If you put in reverse friendly fire, it gives griefers another tool" - this kind of reverse griefing was something I thought about when making this video, but didn't end up including - someone could camp in a c4 or fat boy radius to try to get reflection to kick in for their teammates. While this would definitely be annoying, I think it's a tradeoff worth taking if the same system can also minimize griefers being able to wipe teams, or at least buy enough time for the host to kick griefers. Also, if I continually down a griefer doing this reverse griefing, sure it's a "them" issue because of their positioning, but I can't help but think that it's also partly a "me" issue that I'm so unaware that I keep managing to hit them. And if it's a repeated pattern of behavior throughout a mission, I think in these scenarios it's pretty warranted to kick them, and the host would have plenty of time to do so, compared to situations where the griefer is the one causing friendly fire damage.
"Or what about Hazard 5 where a few friendly fire deaths are the norm" - something I just realized is that my system might help players be more aware of when they're dealing friendly fire damage. In the heat of combat, sometimes it's hard to notice when you're dealing friendly fire since the only feedback you get is a dwarf voice line that might get lost in the audio mix. But if you've reached the point where there's split reflection, it's much clearer when you're damaging teammates since the visual feedback for taking damage is much more obvious.
"What about a light but hidden Trust Factor" - I think this could be a great alternative approach, but for it to work best it seems like it would have to be implemented server-side, which is something the devs seem pretty resistant to - it's why we don't have cross play or cross progression or save transfers.
Valid points about confirmation bias and the Year in Review stats not painting the full picture - intentional friendly fire griefing vs accidental vs friends goofing off with PvP. It's definitely the vocal minority of players who experience this griefing who are compelled to write about it on reddit. Based on what I've noticed (super scientific, I know) it does seem like discourse on this topic has grown over time which is why I felt it was worth addressing, especially with recent events such as the dev stream I quoted and the stats.
@@chanceIIorsI won’t cut into your guys’ debate, I just more think that this is a really healthy response to a really healthy counterpoint to what you said! It’s always nice to see people being cordial online :)
As an aside, I play DRG off and on (about to pick it back up for a month or two or three tonight) and I’m a driller main; though I dont C4 randos really, if im in call with a scout that scout isn’t making it onto the drop pod without an attempted murder. I always pick them back up, and on haz five I don’t do it at all cuz im still not that great and all my focus is on surviving and winning, and I also think that tensions can run higher on haz five so it’s best not to even jokingly kill people on purpose, but despite all these restrictions I give myself to try to keep it light hearted, maybe I should think more about doing it. Cuz you’re right, the ones who laugh the most aren’t the ones who are targeted, it’s me and the others. So thanks for giving me something to think about!
@chanceIIors If the reflection flags could be triggered by joining cheaters, that does sound like it could be pretty bad. A cross match trust system could mitigate the rare occurrences even further, but I think approaching it from within the game's mechanics is a better exercise.
Your video was good and I particularly liked the section where you ranked the grieving options based on how recoverable they were. That said, I think you missed an opportunity to clearly state your 2-downs-to-full-reflection system would solve the total team wipe with 1 C4 which I'd say is the biggest target to grief, especially since everyone has to bunch up at drop pods and blackbox objectives. It's rare, but having the possibility that a driller can just backstab the entire team with one c4 in a second if you decide to bunch up just doesn't have to be in the game. It'd be a tall order for engineer, but both the gunner (with a shield) and scout could recover such a situation with good chances on Haz 5 if they're the last to be considered hit by the explosion (so probably a matter of ping, they could force it to consider who has the most remaining health).
You could shift the system's scale based on player count, too. 2 downs for 4 players, 1 down for a 3 player session and full reflection anytime only two players are in match. As players join or leave a match in progress you can adjust the reflection status, probably favoring to remove reflection as players join as opposed to enforcing reflection if a player drops, unless maybe when the team drops to two players.
Oh, also forgot to add that friendly fire reflection might seem a little goofy, but I kind of like to reason it as being in theme with the dwarves threatening to retaliate in a lot of their friendly fire dialogue.
Love this in-depth reply... and wondering if it might be addressed by being able to turn off the reverse friendly fire in lobbies where you know everyone there? or where you don't think it could be a problem (knowledgeable host, friend group, etc.). Then you get to play it as intended and not worry about unintended repercussions?
Play as scout and see how long you go without a driller trying to kill you.
Even as gunner, I still get attacked by drillers, usually when they're even slightly inconvenienced, but sometimes completely randomly.
Trying to level up scout now, geez. It's relentless. I've taken to pull out my carbine and snipe drillers from a distance when they throw their c4 at me and miss, but teammates get him up right away. I almost feel like giving them a timeout, taking the fun out of greifing, is the only way to teach these trolls.
The FF Reflection could work, BUT I think the "victim" should choose, if reflection should be activated after getting downed. Once my engineer friend downed me by emptying the LOK-1 clip into my badly-positioned scout ass instead of Opressor's that he locked on to, and It was my fault, not his. And if reflection would automatically kick in after such incident - that could still have negative impact on scenarios where you have to save teammate from leech/grabber
Yes I agree.
I think there's merit to your suggestion, but I do also wonder about the implications of passing off this decision making to the player instead of it just being "the rules" enforced by the game.
1) If you give the responsibility to the player who has been downed ,now they have to figure out "Hmm okay did I get downed by accident or on purpose? Did that really warrant reflection or should I let it slide?" It's not a huge dilemma that players will struggle with, but it might distract them from being ready for a revive, thinking about whether to iron will or not, thinking about the best course of action once revived, etc.
2) Reverse trolling - let's say you earnestly tried to save your teammate who was leeched, but you ended up downing them. That teammate accidentally or intentionally chooses for reflection to kick in for you. You'd feel mad that you were punished by THAT PLAYER when you were only trying to help, and this might escalate into further negative sentiment or an argument with that other player. If instead it was just how the game was designed and that's why reflection kicked in, you couldn't really be mad at that person you were attempting to save.
I do admit there's advantages to your suggestions as well. The more I think about it, I don't know if THE perfect solution to this issue even exists, there's always tradeoffs and edge cases to each approach.
@@chanceIIors perhaps exceptions to the reflection mechanic activating when the victim is being grabbed?
giving the victim the ability too consider iff they got griefed or not can give a moment of reflection(pun not intended). Wherin they can figure out, "oh hey this guy is a greafer, lets kick him!".
@@chanceIIors
@@chanceIIors I think a "reputation" system would be nice. In CSGO/CS2, players that receive significance amount of griefing reports will eventually unable to find matches quickly, and when they do they will automatically get muted in-game. So I think we could add a similar system that tracks and records how many time a player damage or down teammates, and then add "reputation required" for joining a game. If this number get higher than normal then bad reputation kicks in and said player cannot join rooms that require higher reputation. Additionally, players with bad reputation will have the friendly fire reflect turned on so they cannot cause further damage. As for how reputation point is calculated, each teamkill or reports from other players will subtract it, while successful missions or thumbs up from others will increase your reputation.
I read about how devs dislike implement things to server only after I wrote of all that, so it's kinda pointless but I will leave my thoughts here anyway lol. As for me I usually only play solo or with my friends, so I'm not too familiar with how bad toxicity in randoms is. I remember there was one time when I play with 3 greenbeards, they activated the bullethell machine event while doretta is running and all of them downed. The host cancelled before I could even try to revive them. That and the fact that servers in Asia region sucks discouraged me from playing randoms a bit.
The number of times someone jumps in front of my minigun or flame thrower after i started firing is insane. I’m constantly holding fire as they’re criss crossing. The number of times i’ve tossed a c4 at a target and then someone sprints in for a power pickaxe attack is also nuts. The target moves on and then i have to run in to recover the useless c4 after.
True, so true. That's why i mostly run full berserker driller with cryo gun. It's just safe. And i use mostly c4 to hold it in air with throwables, or to create a bunker under the triangulation point, so there's only one hole to shoot, then the team truly tries to avoid friendly damage as much as it is possible.
I once had a driller jump across the bunker door filled with bugs i was runn8ng fat vboy
The new drilling deeper mission and C4 is useful though with little risk to team. I’ve started throwing c4 on the wall going down and when we are out of range and all the bugs are on top of C4 I detonate
@@lexerwilliams8880 i love doing that. My favorite is the shard defractor or crapr circles to torch anything crawling passed.
I wouldnt put too much effort into this, i used to play league of legends, and when the developers start acting as social behavior police, the game goes down in a blaze and draws in more toxic behaviors that then become policed, like handing out bans for swearing or "harassment".
Trust me, this is something that you dont want. Just kick toxic players whenever they rarely show up, and try to play with people that you trust, simple as that.
Yeah this happened in R6, team killing used to be something you could do freely but they gradually began punishing players for doing it and now there's a reputation system that rewards and punishes you for good and bad behavior, the problem is that you can easily get spam reported by those same toxic teammates and if it happens enough it can straight up lock you out of competitive game modes
I encountered a guy who deliberately pulled the mule away from the team while they were fighting a horde during a low oxygen mission. We only survived because I was playing scout and was able to catch up to the mule. After his plan failed he immediately quit and I had to get past a horde to save my teammates.
Thanks XBOX I can ban from my game poeple so they never able to join again
Sometimes i just fuck around with my close friend who mains scout(and i main driller), but i think it's not ok to meme around this way with strangers, especially when this game relies so much on cooperation
Also, we both agree to do this and we're doing it at the end near the drop pod
it's ok to c4 a scout at the end of a mission if you revive him after it
@@megawl2086 yeah
you just gotta feel the vibe of the mission or other players. if you get the vibe that a player is NOT in the mood for getting c4'd as a joke, then i wouldn't do it.
@@manboy4720 true
I play engineer with the fat boy. Irregardless of my actions scouts still will somehow find a way to fly into my blast radius irregardless of my level of caution. A scout seeing a nuke grenade flying is like a moth to a flame unfortunately.
Same with driller's c4, scout is just mentally pulled in by some unknown force
Wonder if it's worth taking the Friendly perk at this point if you run Fat Boy.
Across 500 mission hours, I have encountered 2 trolls in DRG. I primarily play on Haz5 with the mentality of speedclearing the mission.
One was a driller that mined the Doretta fuel canisters in a straight line down, and another was a scout blatantly cheating. Maybe Haz5 weeds out the low level trolls. Maybe it's more frequent in slower paced lobbies where the effects griefing are more punishing.
From my experience, 2 griefing instances isn't enough to really demand much change to friendly fire. But if I had to, my solution would be a Y/N prompt whenever you are downed to friendly fire. The downed player would determine if the player intentionally did or didn't kill them, if yes, then it calls a kick vote for the rest of the team to decide. If not, that's the end of it.
The only time I’ve seen griefing was someone who took 3 of 4 supplies and kicked me after I took one. This was on like haz 3 so I think there really are just very few trolls in the community
I like that idea. It’s very simple and doesn’t change game mechanics. But I think the ability to votekick should be present even when the player isn’t killed via friendly fire, somewhere next to the Settings menu in the main menu as a separate button that could be used to start a votekick whenever necessary.
I have almost 1k hours of mission time and I join random lobbies from haz 3-5, depending on what's available, and I have encountered only a VERY small amount of deliberate team kills, much less so malicious ones. I have definitely seen a fair share of toxic players, but team killing really isn't a tool they seem to use.
What is mining oil down the line?
just want to add to this in case any new players are put off by this video, around 1000hrs myself on both the console and steam versions (90% of which has been played with randoms), I can count on 1 hand the amount of actual griefers I've encountered. The meme of driller killing scout is really annoying when it happens, but it very seldom does happen
this can also be abused
for example when driller has reached 100% damage reflection you can go into his c4 to kill hem
I don't see a problem with his response honestly. If he answered like that to a more severe issue I would agree it's an immature response, but the TK "problem" isn't really a problem.
They could, add a personal ban list. Assholes that fail teams, will get on enough personal ban lists that they will not be getting in any games. I have only met a fail team person once. Sadly they were a legendary+ player .
Yes I like this idea
A blacklist is already either implemented or confirmed to be being implemented by the devs (can't remember if it's out yet).
You can ban players already. Block them on steam, there’s a helpful in-game shortcut
Exactly, shadow ban a scumbag from your team n game, perfect move
Is this ban also available when you are a client, or you can only do that as host?
The closest I’ve been to a lobby getting briefed was a driller asking me if I wanted to 1v1. I lost he picked me up and we moved on with the mission
Haha that's the funnest 😅
As a scout main I fully support toxic drillers because its the most effective way to teach greenbeard scouts the importance of being able to grapple out of trouble at a moments notice.
It's the scout hazing ritual. That or showing the greenbeard scout how to dig dirt as you stand behind him as the driller.
Big point to note when you're talking about friendly fire in lower haz, you're completely off-base. Friendly fire in lower haz isn't because the griefer can't make it to higher haz, it's that they are bored. Me and my friends normally run haz 5 on the mission with both warnings and whenever we're running something too easy someone gets an itchy trigger finger.
hate to say it but I'm with the devs on this one. Friendly fire is kinda a thing you don't want to overly punish. Or just play solo.
I've always been annoyed at purposeful friendly fire, even if its just a few shots. Like, we're playing a cooperative game where I am legit willing to risk the entire mission to save my teammates just for the sake of winning together. No other game can do that.
The only potential problem with that would be something like radiation from fat boy. If you count a kill from that as FF, then someone might avoid using it after getting one teamkill because 50% of the radiation damage still is a lot. If you decide not to, then a griefer could irradiate certain things like the drop pod before everyone gets there or dotty so nobody can repair her.
That why friendly fire reduction is actually best for engineer, he the one actually dealing a lot of direct damage in a AOE while hawing a lot of ammo to it, with soldier you actually not do much damage but have a lot of ammo so you actually just maybe hit a friend 2 Time but it's hard to actually deal damage without wanting to hurt them directly, with driller well except for the C4 everything work by AfterEffect so you don't deal a lot if not at all to Friends, and the C4 are really in limited ammo number so again, it's hard when you don't actually want to deal damage to a Friend to actually damage them, and scout is only good to direct damage, and if you contribute to the battle, dealing damage is not your priority as a scout anyway.
As a driller I can safely say that a quarter of my deaths is caused by c4
I don't think out of all of the games I've played I've ever encountered anyone who activley tried to throw the game or teamkill me or anyone else on the team. I think the friendly fire stat most likely comes from accidents or friends just fucking around. I don't think it's a big enough issue to warrant an entirely new mechanic
He's just making shock content. I have played this game non stop and only ran into it twice. Literally just kicked the guy and went onto finishing the mission.
@@ElliotScottDatingYeah friendly fire is kept in check by the session host. Killing other players = getting kicked 🥾
People always talk about the C4 team kills but I think it's way funnier doing it with the Deep Core Grenade Launcher Hyper Propellant overclock. Then your mate is not only dead but they also know you took the time and skill to aim at them while they grapple-slingshot through the cave.
In all seriousness tough I have never lost a mission due to griefing and the few times I got exploded right in front of the drop-pod were quite funny. I can absolutely see how there might be a few people C4'ing the entire team at the very end of a mission but usually it turns into a heated 1v1 while waiting for molly instead.
I've never seen a driller do it intentionally to scout unless everybody is chill and we know it.
As someone who thinks the "Driller C4s the Scout" meme is hilarious, I would _never_ even dream of doing it to randoms. Farthest I ever go with randoms who seem chill is randomly put a C4 at my feet when we're all standing together during a slow moment, and see everyone's reactions.
Usually they all scatter but one guy just came up to my face and nodded, so I blew us both up XD
But again, I would never do that when the mission could be put on the line. I'm all for funny jokes and gags but not at the expense of "the vibe", and I've been on the receiving end of intentional C4 when it wasnt being used as a joke, it's not fun.
I blew up the scout only once, and that was when we were fighting with the dreadnought and everyone ran out of ammunition for all weapons and there was no nitra in the cave at all. The explosives finished off both the scout and the dreadnought.
"oh? you're approaching me? explosives placed"
also devs need to do nothing about this. it's a lost knowledge of online play, but toxic people will eventually be left with nobody wanting to play with them. dev interference is exactly what lead to the downfall and heavy censoring of online gaming. no intervention is needed from authority, the community can handle it, especially in such a light game as drg where leaving is not punished in any way and save files can be edited
Unfortunately, I have downed other dwarves by accident. I whip a turret, sometimes the explosion hits something close and downs a team mate. I get locks with the lok-1 and a team mate jumps into the path. A blue jellyfish things fly's into my sights when I fire off a fat man. About to shoot the butt of a dread with hyper propellent, and a team mate zig zags right in front of me. A swarm is crawling towards me, and another dwarf is in the process of getting eaten, and I have no choice with the arc cutter. I shoot myself up with rj250 as someone walks up to me. Set up some platforms as land mines for the shard diffractor. Driller gets close to what I am aiming at and he gets blown up. That is just with engi. With the gunner with my overclocks with the missile launcher in cramped spaces also kill me just as much. With driller in tight quarters my flamethrower, and cryo cannon end up causing some severe damage. I don't mean it, and I try to avoid it, but shit happens. I am a very unlucky dwarf in general. Half the time I kill myself more than anyone else. I always say sorry when it happens. Even if taking the moment to type kills me instead.
One time a teammate got carried away by a grabber. I was going to free him with a few shotgun shots, but forgot I had switched to the grenade launcher.
I built it for max direct damage too and hit him square in the face.
He got free... from the mortal coil😅
@CandleWisp yeah, shit happens. It's fine tho...unless you don't pick them up afterwards
I experienced this on an elite deep dive recently. Driller blew us all up just before we finished the first mission and wasted all our nitra
As an engineer with fat boy i will die from your system a lot
Fat boy rounds are trash and do next to no damage to enemies...... Those who use fat boy only want to make life harder for the team, or teamkill
Bro left his homies 😭
Friendly fire adds to the immersion and strategy/teamwork of the game. Removing it would be lame. However, I see no reason why they couldn't add a check box to turn friendly fire on or off when hosting a game and let the players choose.
I think this is an idea that comes from good intentions, but I can see it quickly just becoming "meta" for everyone to turn friendly fire off if they had the option, there's not downside and only upside when you remove the challenge of friendly fire from the game. The game becomes safer yes, but in the process a core component of the combat loop is carved out completely. This is one of the main reasons why I don't prefer to use the "No Friendly Fire" mod, and why I don't think that mod is a good solution to the issue.
I also think letting the players toggle it on a per-lobby setting would introduce inconsistency to the gameplay and it could be confusing to players, especially greenbeards. A player might also develop bad habits if they play with friendly fire off for too long and then swaps over to a lobby with it enabled.
The Friendly perk exists, doesnt turn it off completely and does cost a perk slot, but if you rly dont wanna accidentally hit your teammates with a Fatboy, itll do the job.
Just last week, my scout main playing partner lost three EDDs due to team killing in his random lobbies. We ended up running it as a duo, and he marveled at how much easier the elite deep dive is when he's not getting shot, blown up, or chip damaged by his own teams... never mind actually having team synergy with me. It was... eye opening. I've been playing since the start of Season 1 and I've never seen it so bad as it is now.
I've always been wary of random lobbies, because of a long history with Rainbow Six Siege before they implemented the friendly fire reflection. It took me a very long time to trust DRG's random lobbies, but I started to, but recent experience makes me more likely to stick with my friends again. I hope the team play first mentality does stick and they do *something* to preserve some aspects of the community they worked so hard to create.
It's been interesting as I've recently started playing with some of the GTFO community and the sheer impossibility of doing the missions without real teamwork has shaped that community as well in some of the same ways I have seen in DRG. I don't advocate that route for Rogue Core as it really limits your player base, but... yeah... I hope some lessons get learned through all this.
It's interesting seeing the comments here... both the denials and the other ideas as well as some folks who are outright looking for 'better' ways to grief other players. The sub-Reddit seems overrun with meme lords, lately, too. It's... discouraging.
In Rainbow Six Siege, there is a similar reverse friendly fire mechanic. The game also lets you choose if the teamkill was an accident or on purpose, so if it was an accident, the teamkiller wont get the reverse damage.
Most of those downs can be unintended. I remember when me and my friend were fighting a dreadnought. It was aggroed at my friend so I decided to reposition myself. And this is what happens: my friend shoots at the dread (it was hiveguard) at the exact moment I decided to dash. So I jump and catch his bullet with my skull which ends me while dread mauls friend to death.
Here's my proposed alterations to the Reflect, instead of one team kill permanently reflecting all damage, instead, if 2 or more players are currently down by your hand, 100% of friendlyfire damageis reflected onto you until both people downed by you are revived. This insures that accidental or good sport friendly kills don't permanently handicap you, but you're still stoped from killing the entire team.
It would be really frustrating if me and a fellow driller were just having a bit of fun c4ing and reviving each other at the end of a mission pr when there's down time, and then all the sudden our agreed upon fun is ruined. Or maybe you're someone who is prone to accidentally killing teammates, you shouldn't be heavily punished of that.
As for me, this number is so big because a lot of players play with friends and troll each other. There are a lot of youtubers that play with there companies and they also troll each other. I have 600 hours in game and has met griffer only once. Peresnoly I and my friend in 2 or 3 rounds out of 10 kill each other.
The overuse of the word toxic to describe this is a bit overkill. Friendly fire is going to go up as the game gets more popular. The "driller blows up scout" meme isn't anything close to an issue and at best it's an in joke amongst the community that new players will be confused about then eventually learn about. It's part of the fun of getting more invested in the game is learning all those quirks. Statistically this game would not have the good reputation for being nontoxic if the friendly fire griefing was a big issue. Someone who would drop the game because of 2 instances of being downed (a game they likely paid for) is also likely someone who would drop it at a mission failure of natural causes or just not "vibing" with it. All sterilizing the game does it hurt the long time fans because more often than not new players will come in if the games what they want it to be. It'd be comperable to saying "minecrafts desert temples are toxic because players wont understand why they're dying and they might find it frustrating and quit the game as a result." All a hyperbolic title like this does is seek to blow a near non existent problem out of proportion then swoop in with a supposed solution when in reality the problem was negligible at best.
Well said.
Real and true
I once had a moment where i'm the driller I saw a morkite vein on the wall I combo dash c4 throw but the Scout came from nowhere and just caught up in it. We all had a great laugh.
Like a moth to a flame
Griefing should be adressed, but the friendly fire must not be nerfed. We should be able to kick an asshole even after completing the objective
While it would prevent an endgame team wipe, it would likely lead to another problem. That being hosts purposely kicking other players after the objective so they only get 25% of their rewards, much like some assholes have done in Team fortress 2 mann versus machine mode before
Please no, if you played Helldivers 2 then the game lets you kick even when extraction is already there, there is a problem where a-hole hosts just kick everyone when the mission is complete so you don't get any rewards for your work.
I was shot down to death by a driller host once for taking a resupply when I had enough ammo but low health, I learned to not do that ever again
I've been playing with randoms more recently than I used to, so I cant rly say what it was like in the early days, but by and large I really dont think friendly fire is a significant problem as things stand.
I can think of 1 example where a relatively green teammate killed me because they didnt know what I was doing, aside from that I dont think I remember the last time I got intentionally teamkilled.
Now, accidental chip damage? Yes.
Forgetting I'm running fire dmg while in a praetorian cloud? Absolutely.
Fatboy missfires? Without a doubt.
Stepping in front of a dreads open weakpoint? Yep.
Fatfingered grenades? All the fcking time.
Shit just gets hectic, bullets fly, occasionally theyll fly towards you.
Yup I think the biggest deterrent to downing other players on purpose is that there’s always a session host that can and will kick you for doing so.
Now that you mention grenades, I'm willing to bet a large portion of those kills are the damn driller saw grenades, those things are absolute accidental teamkill machines, half the time I try to use them I even end up killing myself with it lol
@@niwoh Shredders, Clusters, Sticky mines and Leadbursters all are pretty fantastic ways to accidentally hit a teammate tbh.
@@TheSpeep Agreed, and they might finish off a teammate but the saw is one of the hardest to see coming and hits like a damn truck lol
@@niwoh Oh wait right, Shredders are one of engies grenades, saw is the Ripper, I meant that one, woops.
Jumping in front of teammates and tanking bullets at low hp to build Friendly Fire reflection would be a really funny way to grief while also being a victim in the teams eyes until you get to the funny part where you open fire and everyone kills themselves. I approve of this change
/s
Interesting pov, although for me drg is the least toxic game i have ever played. High death ratio from friendly fire might be due to intentionally killing your teammate when very near drop pod or even in drop pod when the mission is completed anyway. I don't see it as a bad thing, also people in random lobbies seem to be cool about it as well. I have never encountered getting intentionally killed in the middle of the game. I think friendly fire is important aspect of the game, as you have to position well, especially on higher hazard levels. 99% of greybeards type simple 'r' or spam ping with ctrl to tell that they are ready for some objective. Ofc sometimes misunderstanding happens, but as mentioned in the video its almost never due to intentional desire to grief your team.
In my 250 hours of playtime I’ve experienced intentional friendly fire once.
i'm pretty sure the reason it 'grew' is because people got better at the video game, and die less to fall damage and enemies
as it's percentage based, and you cant go above of below 100% here, that'd have the perceived effect of 'more deaths by friendly fire' even if friendly fire also went down in numbers, but by a lesser amount than the rest
I've experienced close to zero intentional friendly fire kills outside of end-of-mission fun, but a lot of early button pushing or disregarding machine events.
Its a timeless debate, and it can't really be stopped or "fixed." Just learn to live with it. You either have no friendly fire, and the game is super easy with no team awareness needed, or you have it, and there will be trolls even though they are far and few between here. Just kick immediately if they offend you, and block them so they don't show up in your lobby anymore. Its that simple.
Reee my feelings. Devs do something.
Well, my friend playes as a scout with a rifle, and I can say, that not intentional kills is a thing, when you oneshot other dwarfs in a Haz 5 missions. Yep, sometimes he is trolling as, and we are trolling him, but often it is completely unintentional, and I wouldn't liked if my full hp scout died because of lag or not good movment from me. (And it's really from me, I just love vampire on a driller too much). Plus, I play with randoms often, and there are like no teamkillers. Greenbeards who leave, because they don't want to wait for a minute for me to safely res them - a lot. Guys who got fed with last season and don't want to clean roxpox - a lot. Teamkillers - maybe one was sus, but it's all in a 10 hundred hours. Accidental kills tho.... A fucking ton, especially on a Haz 5 when you can kill a dwarf even with sluge gun or subata to the head.
I have 1200 hours in game and have completed 1336 missions. I can count the times I've had a negative experience with others players literally on one hand. I'm not discounting the point youre making but my experience tracks with the vast majority of players. And that this feels a bit like the making of a mountain when it truly is just a mole hill. DRG has fostered one of, if not the best, communities in the history of coop gaming. This by its own nature weeds out griefers. And FF reflection even with only 50% would wipe a team more, especially on haz 5 where health is rarely full, than griefers have ever done.
7:51 - I agree here. I've recently started playing Scout and I've gotten C4 bombed by toxic Drillers in half the pub games I've played but I still agree that friendly fire is kind of important to the soul of the game. I like that I don't just get to mindlessly spray and pray into a glyphid horde because I might hit my teammates.
Only thing I don't like about your reflection suggestion is that it still gives a free pass to a toxic driller who wants to blow up a teammate for the memes with his C4. There needs to be a mechanic to dissuade this. I would recommend also adding a "Revenge" mechanic. If a teammate downs you, they get a unique debuff where the next friendly fire damage they take from THAT specific teammate that they killed will one-shot them. However, this can be "forgiven" by the victim by simply saluting the perpetrator in case they believe it was accidental.
... of course the simpler solution would be to just significantly reduce the damage C4 can do to teammates...
As a scout main, I'm not seeing much toxic behaviour and we're the ones exposed to the highest amount of FF. I really do agree with Aaron on it not being a big enough problem to be worth switching their focus to.
The developers only have so much time and resources to put into the game and personally I'd much rather see more overclocks, skins, emotes, biomes and so on.
To clarify, I do believe toxic FF is a problem. It's just a pretty minor one.
Once we had a Driller on our team who downed teammates om purpose. And you know what? When they died, we just... Didn't res them. No toxicity in chat. No kicking. Just... Left behind. Where they belong.
Now I happened to kick a toxic player just once (lvl 40+, always host). Others just... Weren't toxic, that's how good the community is.
I mean imo its not really a problem, only time i get team killed is right at the end of the mission when the driller blows us all up lmao
One time when I was playing scout, this gunner would at random start shooting me. He was being really weird about it, most of the time just shooting me for a little bit and then stopping. I initially just thought it was by accident and ignored it, but it was getting obvious that it was intentional. At one point I got sick of it and starting shooting back, leading to a duel which I ending up winning.
When I downed him I was taunting the shit out of him, acting like I was going to revive him and stopping just before I could, and pointing at him with my scanner. Everyone else on the team must have known what happened, because they all starting doing the exact same thing. All the while the gunner was constantly asking to be helped up. Bro quit after a while, and we all saluted.
12:50 A guy that left 2 dwarfs behind talks about toxicity in game and how bad it is :)
Its honestly one of the best parts of the game. In random lobbies, ill admit im a little bit of a troll, but I would never throw a mission. I much more of a troll if in in a discord vc and were all screwing around on a low haz level
I honestly don't agree with this video. Through my many years of playing DRG, I've only ever had beef with one person. This person randomly downed people for no reason, made the stupidest decisions and was overall just obnoxious. I was standing at the drop pod with him, waiting for the others. I was typing in chat, then he just guns me down for no reason.
That only happening ONCE over like five years should really not warrant a change in how friendly fire occurs. Sure, that guy was annoying as all hell, and he got the boot eventually, but that has been my only case, and I don't see why anything should be changed. I just feel that goes a little overboard.
EDIT: I spoke with a few people about this, and they have also not had many trolls/toxic players over the span that they've played the game
If you ever get bored, you just raise the hazard level. The amount of beetles grows exponentially by the amount of players there in, so you better believe they will reanimate you next time you mess up something, and there's already an solution - just kick them out of the lobby. Not that anyone would be ever a such buzz off, to get on some one nerves to such a extent, especially when you're playing driller by yourself. Even if someone shot you, there's 50/50% they would expect you to get angry - so least don't give them reason to do it.
2 downs is far too little for deeprock, especially on haz 5 where you revive on 10% health.
i feel like if reflection is added, each player should be able to choose when to turn on and off reflection with a hotkey after they get hit.
it could also maybe even apply retroactively too. so you could press a button after somebody downs you, and your dwarf gets back up again, yells "you bloody leaf loving-knife ear!" and the person who shot you just immediately dies from shame
I think something that can improve this idea is the friendly fire detection system (ffds) would have 3 critiria; total damage delt to hp, total damage delt to sheilds, and how many times youve downed team mates. The threshhold for hp damage would be lower than that of the sheild threshhold, brcause sheilds regenerate on there own accidental ff would be generally more likely to occur to a team mates sheild.
The sheild threshhold must be high enough to allow for mistake while not so high that a greifer can continually break sheilds leaving team mates constantly vulnerable with no punishment.
For ho the number must be high enough so that if you accidentally break team mates sheild and deal some hp damage, or if team mate is very low hp and you accidentally down them because they had 15hp, that happening a few times wouldnt trigger the ffds. But also low rnough that a greifer shredding team mates hp would stack up rather quickly.
Then of course theres downs, the damage reflection is a great idea, i think maybe after 2 downs instead of 1 to give a little more wiggle room but idk. But also i yhink it would be plenty possible for the ffds to register if a team mate is grabbed by a cave leach or macterra grabber. If team mate is grabbed then the ffda would not count ff damage towards the threshholds.
Now say a greifer balances the team killing as to not trigger any of the 3 threahholds, what you can do is make a 4th threshhold; ffds total percentage. Think of it like the verified 'ammo percentage mod' each measurement is tracked by percentage out of 100%(0%bring not ff at all and 100% being a threahhold met) so all 3 measaurements woukd total 300%. So if s greifer manages the threshholds and say only does like 50% of each measurement. that would total 150%. This 4th metric would be once a total percentage of ff is surpassed it would automatically enable 100% ff damage reflection
man I understand where you're coming from but keep in mind that in a lot of parties with four friends killing each other like in a mad pvp while the bugs are eating at you is kinda fun XD
not all the time of course but when some internal conflicts arise a duel is always the best solution(always and only if playing with friends)
nice video by the way
Friendly fire does offer a lot of depth gameplay wise, makes you have to plan your shots and positioning much more especially in higher difficulties and can force communication. While people troll with it, it does serve to make games like this more fun. I would not settle for it being removed as it does add depth to the combat in the game even if some are annoying with it. Nor would I like a damage reflection feature as this is in some ways more abusable than friendly fire in higher hazards. Just imagine your teammate goes in front of you, deliberately gets downed. You think it's a mistake, res them, they turn that on, then they jump in front of you again to ruin your mission. I think it's important to remember that for those that are annoying there is the kick option, and if you really don't like it, there's mods. The most reasonable solution for those that really, really don't like this mechanic would be just implementing an option for lobby owners to disable friendly fire. This option could only be changed in the lobby and not during a mission. This would make everyone happy and would not introduce yet another mechanic that can be abused, and would not take anything away from anyone either.
Another way the FF reflection could word is to judge what percentage of your shots connected with an ally vs an enemy. Higher the FF percent means higher reflection damage. Although this method has some flaws. Maybe it could only trigger FF reflection when the threshold reaches more than 30% towards an ally.
No need to change friendly fire, the whole community only has a couple griefers anyway
Also if someone c4s the whole team at once the reflect should automatically kick in to the next level prior to damage calculation
I play driller a lot and I do use the ff perk, mostly because in the heat of the moment it's hard to not accidentally grill your team along with the bugs. Flamethrower doesn't really do that much ff to begin with, it's just an extra precaution. I also try to call out c4 before I blow one, but it does happen on occasion
I once had a host cancel a whole mission cause no one would go back to revive him
Why didn't you?
@@rayniac211 cause he was really far away on hazard 4, and i was only a scout, the other 2 team members werent down for it, so i would die trying
@@Gumunista I get that. It would have been pretty rock and stone if you tried anyway though. The other 2 dudes were probably chilling in the drop pod securing the mission success :D
@@Gumunistamy brother in Christ we scouts are the medics. No matter how far, no matter how dangerous and no matter how dark we have to try.
It's driller and soldier job to go down teammate, scout is to arrive at the pod, but at the same time, it's way easyer when you are multiple than in solo to return to the drop pod so the question is, why he was in solo ? Most of the time it's just proof that they was no teamplay in the first place.
I was skeptical at first cuz I don't remember experiencing a lot of friendly fire, but you brought up a lot of good points around the halfway point. the only downside to your proposed solution I can think of (other than what everyone else described) is that it would take a lot more time to add than something as simple as "less friendly fire once the objective is done" as mentioned in that stream clip. but I know we're all just speculating anyway
Wall of text incoming..
3:18 it does not deflect at all, maybe a bit, but not enough to say that his response is bad.
I played so far 22,8 hrs (not much, i know) and i only had 1 toxic player who did not even friendly fire, was only saying the n-word and that's pretty much it.
Comparing this game to others that are team based (PVE or PVP) it's really less toxic, of course toxicity will forever exist, is a human thing after all. And seeing the state of the game i don't personally think it's 100% top priority to rush in to search for stuff to stop, because they're right, there will be always people who are so dedicated to ruin others that they will always find a way, no matter what, programing a game is no joke, and with less than 100 employees is far harder.
And a system that can 100% stop this kind of situations will never exist at all, it's matter of time where they find a flaw, we do have the tools, they're not perfect, but its better than having nothing.
I am not saying DRG is perfect or that you're wrong, what i am trying to say it's the main reasons of why it's not their top priority at the moment, and after all you're right, it's quite confusing the fact that is top 3 cause of downs, however it's really hard to just pin down who's doing it on purpose and who is accidental because their loadout is designed to do big boom cause haha gl dealing with huge hordes of enemies with only bullets.
And most important thing.. loosing a mission has no penalty, at all, you're against AI anyways, so it won't shit talk you like league of legends for example. I mean sure you must do it again but that's pretty much the only penalty, i am assuming your main issue with it it's when it comes to deep dives (specially elite) which i will 100% understand, and also it can get really annoying when it happens multiple times.
So, no matter what they do there always be some flaw, major or little, reflect FF? they'll find a way to take intentional dmg to punish you and also will make explosive builds be total garbage. It's not a bad idea, specially if you can choose when to punish, but again, trolls will always say to punish, even if it's obviously not your fault.
We can have the tools, they are usefull, but they should be used with responsability, and no matter what, there will be always people who will use it very poorly or for annoying.
12:55 Lol, all this talk about toxic teammates, then you end the video leaving your teammates behind to die. Classy.
There's this crazy concept called "playing with people you trust" that you must've forgotten about between your first comment and this one - those were my friends telling me to leave instead of throwing the mission trying to save them. Regardless, if you take the dwarf roleplaying "leave no dwarf behind" so seriously that you think the right call was to save my teammates at the end with no Iron Wills left on a haz5.5x2 mission instead of securing the win, maybe with enough playtime you'll see that sometimes it's appropriate to break these so-called "rules".
It's okay though I get that nuanced thinking is harder for some folks, especially for someone who tries to compare league of legends toxicity to DRG 💀and clearly missed that I, too, enjoy the combat depth that friendly fire provides at 7:45
@@chanceIIors No, I absolutely know that you couldn't save them, I was making a joke, though I feel like you really should have used different footage for the video, since it kind of sends the wrong message at the end, lol.
Rock and Stone!!!
@@chanceIIors I've left teammates behind too, sometimes finishing the mission is far more important. I've only been playing the game for about a month and I still don't feel comfortable playing on hazard 4 that much.
My opinion matters (to some extent), but don't take it like I'm calling you a noob, lol. I just simply think that your idea is bad.
Making the Devs into social behavior police is awful, and I think that's why the developers blew off the suggestion. It's something that I don't really consider a "massive problem" and one that will eventually sort itself out.
A better way to deal with it, than changing core aspects of the game, is when you consistently deal a lot of team damage you get a badge next to your profile name labeling you as a "team killing f*cktard" and you are subjected to community shame and a warning that you might be a crappy player. When someone with this label joins a game there's an automatic kick vote. When they host a game, you can see the label on their lobby. After time with reasonable team damage, it disappears.
Simple as that, let the community and players figure it out, the devs have better things to do.
@@chanceIIors When deaths in friendly fire overtake falling damage, we definitely have a real problem on our hands.
One thing that I don't think your solution addresses, is teammates jumping in front of your shooting. That's the big thing that I struggle with. I'm just playing the gunner and then the driller jumps over my head, and stands directly in my line of fire.
Not only is the team killer a potential troll, but toxic players can start abusing your team reflection damage too. Trolls abuse that in COD too, I used to love watching Kosdff TK, and he did that all the time, intentionally dying to friendly fire a couple of times to get the damage reflection.
Like all typical leftist policies, you make something illegal or restricted, and create a host of new problems, that you need to fix with the same solution of making it illegal and restricted, which causes a domino effect of failures across the board.
@@chanceIIors UA-cam deleted one of my comments, because I said a bad word, the overall idea was to create a label that tracks your team damage, and labels you as a "team killer" where other players can see a badge next to your name and avoid playing with you, after a time of playing correctly, the badge goes away.
Leave it to the community to fix itself, the devs have better things to do than be social behavior police to grown men playing videogames.
I've only been playing the game for about a month, I'm not a noob, but still pretty new. I'm not calling you an id!ot or that you are a noob, I simply think your idea is bad and solves nothing, while creating a host of other problems.
chancellors... I'll remember that steam tag.
I let you know if i change my mind on my third viewing in a while.
Though i could see reduced damage after primary objective is achieved, that's a small change.
The best thing to say to a troll is "you had a bad day? It's okay, have fun ;)"
tha best tghing to say to a trolllll is: YOUUU POOOOP Y HEADD!!! YOUU SMELL
obtaining the nuke as engineer has clearly made me main friendly. it just keeps accidentally happening the scout c4 meme also applies to the engineer and the nuke. because of dreadnaugts and scouts shotgun being more effective at close range..
"Build Inspector"....?
Holy Christ this is so sweaty, play a competitive game if this is how important a match of Deep Rock is to you.
While this system sounds alright on paper, I feel like this would be a bit too punishing for just accidental player downs. Especially when playing driller it’s not exactly easy to avoid friendly fire damage with your flamethrower/cryo cannon. It’s not something that would come into play most of the time but still. Also I feel like this might end up making playing with new players a lot more annoying too if they end up walking into your grenades/c4 due to lack of game sense. Ik for me personally when I was new to the game, I used to die to proximity mines all the time before I realized what they actually were. Being further punished for a noobie’s ignorance/lack of game sense I feel would wind up to more players lashing out at new players and driving them away from the game.
That said i feel like this might be an idea that would need to be played around with to get a good feel for and is possible it wouldn’t be as punishing as I think.
one thing i can probably blame on is Sseth's video on deep rock, he mentioned killing scouts around 3-5 times on the video, video is popular to hell, people probably brought the game due to him, and the cult like following of Sseth think the game's all about that, i love his videos but his fans probably are the cause of it, there's been a upsurge of griefers, trols and hackers
as a driller i find very hard to predict the primary weapons hitboxes, so i end up hitting my allies
in my last 50 games, i’ve encountered 0 griefers, and only 2/3 players who were mean to the rest of the group
Ну не знаю... Я встречал может двух или трёх тролей/токсинов за 800 часов.
I main driller and always host my own missions and have the setting that only allows for 1 of each class so i never have to deal with other drillers c4'ing the team. I would say that in my experience the c4 is the only thing that can become a truly game ruining troll tool as on things like deep scan and salvage operation where the team is grouped up 1 c4 can (intentionally or unintentionally) wipe the whole team. even with other strong team kill options like hyper propellant, fat boy, cryo-cannon, and super cooling chamber, there will always be time to kick the troll before they can ruin the mission completely on their own. My solution would be to just put a cap of a maximum 50% of total health per single instance of friendly fire as this would have zero effect on everything except c4 as it is to my knowledge the only thing that can kill from full health in a single hit.
Obviously there are still ways a dedicated troll could kill you with this such as freezing you first with the cryo cannon and getting you low enough that they could kill you with the c4, however the big thing is that it stops them from being able to easily wipe the team in 1 hit before they can be kicked.
That would be my solution IF I changed anything, but I think that the system is fine as it is now since missions are relatively low commitment (you dont lose anything other than time for failing). for the most part you can just ban that person and move on with your day, at most you'll lose 10-15 minutes of progress as it's generally not worth it for trolls to spend an hour in a deep dive only to forfeit their rewards to blow you all up at the last minute and lose an hour of their own time too. malicious friendly fire kills are so rare and the c4 being how it is is a part of the game's identity and i dont think it should change. think about people who play with their friends and enjoy blowing each other up, i think there would be more lost than gained if tk precautions were made.
Good suggestions, hopefully they take it to heart like your season 4 video
10:00 I think a system similar to planetside 2 would work well. You can do a fair bit to TK dmg in it (higher than most games due to the MMO nature of it) and if you don't stop shooting (not even killing) allies you get your weapons locked for a time. I don't know how it escalates beyond that but I think a base system of locking weapon use would help. For some it would help them learn to slow down and look before they shoot while the trolls get stopped. They could also have it be a dynamic threshold where someone who regularly gets their weapons locked takes less dmg to cause the effect but if they cool off then the limit goes back up allowing for people to learn to not do that without being overly harsh yet still being effective. Further punishment such as locking someone out of random co-op for a few hours, days or a week or more at a time could help for the extreme cases and most wouldn't even know it was there.
My only issue with this is I wouldn't be able to have a pvp battle with my friends anymore without getting kicked, dying or being on some kind of infamous list
when me and my friend encounter a grifer that intentionally trying to drop some of us we do funerals: down the grifer, dig him a hole and let the engi to put a gravestone, meanwhile mocking him. This is like spray water on an animal to make them behave. I wish this tradition became as popular as C4 scout meme.
I think something that may have been overlooked in observing that the amount of friendly fire death has grown is its congruence to the growth of the playerbase. There is a minor growth, and while observing the graph I had made I had the thought the toxicity problem may be solving itself. Consider this: The growth of player kills is much much much closer to the growth of daily active players than those who have purchased the game. Astronomically so. So I theorize toxic players do not find significant enough enjoyment to stick around. Not only that but the amount of player caused death is enough for every other dwarf on any given day, that amount of player caused deaths is either a problem or a feature and I know what I believe.
the issue with this is that you can't have a friendly duel anymore with your friends
the easy solution to this is to have a "pardon" system where you can reduce the level of ff reflection your killer has, since this is tracked per player
this way, you can have fun ff with your known friends while keeping the same system for strangers
this pardon would also be handy if you communicate with a teammate and clear up any mistakes, so the game state could return to default when no one has beef
Reflection damage just ensures that if the Driller does C4 the other 3 players, that they will go down as well.
400+ hours in, mainly playing with randoms, in North America, yet my total "C4 Teamkills in general" Count can probably be counted on one hand, and downs by team damage in general are probably around 20 times. I'm apparently VERY lucky if teamkills common enough to warrant it's own video.
whilst i can see the point of a system like this, i think you are correlating an increase in friendly fire directly with increasing amounts of trolling when it's most likely just an ever expanding userbase, multiple youtubers in the past months have made videos about DRG massively increasing the attention on it and driving more players to it, naturally, this is going to increase friendly fire rates in a game with friendly fire, the stats dont show things like how many of those friendly fire deaths where the people at low health already and getting hit with strays, how many were cos someone wandered into a c4 by accident, or getting caught in a grenade explosion, all these sound like theyde be uncommon but in the chaos that is DRG they are, as im sure you know, prone to happening, and thats not even factoring in the even more likely fact that it's just the expanding user-base, getting together with friends and messing around.
However with that said there are some issues with the reflection system in general, for one, activating on kill is extremely worrying given that at haz 5 many people are on extremely low health most of the time, i dont think i see many cases at all where a full team isnt balancing their health at 20% constantly meaning itd be much easier to kill them by accident with stray bullets and grenades inflicting a frankly needless 50% reflection in that case specifically, instead of on kills, i think it should be activated based on the amount of damage youve done to teammates in that mission, this'd help across the board on every hazard level and would solve the issue with yours that drillers and scouts can just...freeze you without killing you to get you killed by a swarm. Without health increasing perks dwarves have something like 20 shield and 125 health at base, so have break point if you deal say 70 damage to dwarves in a mission you get hit with the 50%, and if you do in total enough to kill 1 dwarf and half the health of another, thats when you get full.
Now another issue is showing everyone you have reflection, thats a bad idea and only increases the chance of someone griefing you by making you get full reflect and then intentionally jumping into your stuff to get you killed, imo that should be hidden to eliminate that, someone randomly going down already pretty much happens given the chaos and how it can be hard to tell how or why you got killed past "lots of bugs cap'n" so no one would really question if it was due to reflect, whereas if they know the player has reflect, accident or not, they may be more unlikely to want to help a 'griefer' even if it wasnt griefing at all and they just accidentally downed 2 team mates in the multitude of ways you can accidentally kill a team mate as listed further above.
I'm not saying I agree with Aarons (Arin?) hard line stance on the matter and a response of looking into it would be better, but theres no perfect solutions and griefers would find new ways, or exploit the other ways, the the ways this introduces...honestly, my suggestion, if you think someone is trolling and intentionally killing you or team mates, instead of reflect damage, instead of adding in entire complicated math systems to track damage, kills, relfected damage whatever, just add a system that upon death press 1 of 2 buttons, forgive or punish, i cant recall the game that has this, but it means that the punishment is then down to the players to toll out, players who can communicate, players who can read the situation and see if it was a troll or if they just accidentally ran into c4, now again, also not perfect cos griefers can then intentionally die and punish the player but it lessens the impact of innocent people getting caught by a system designed to punish them even if everything was accidental
All i'm gonna say is that at least 50% of all intentional FD happens at the Doors of the drop pod, where a 5 second rez literally doesn't matter.
2nd viewing of this video, now with 300 hours playtime, and drillers griefing the scout is especially strange, i don't understand why. And i have had a few lobbies that had a guy that seemingly intentionally was putting down a lot of team damage.
Can anyone explain the meme of C4ing the scout?
The worst was an engineer with the fat boy overclock. I ate a few throughout the mission, but he attempted to TPK the party in front of the drop pod, and when he failed, and we were endingvthe mission via extraction, he cancelled the game that he was hosting, and thus we all failed the mission and got no reward. Idk what his problem was.
I still don't think that the solution is anything that you suggested. I like my social shaming via a sort of dishonorable patch attached their name, a representation of their poor sportsmanship.
I think the best way to deal eith this is to give the host an option to turn on or off friendly fire. You want the classic clusterfuck? Join or make a lobby with friendly fire enabled. You want to be absolutely sure no random troll will ruin the mission (don't join randoms then) then you can look for a lobby with friendly fire off or make one yourself.
I played DRG for 175 hours and I have never met a person who maliciusly sabotaged the mission
Btw since the Friendly perk not only negates friendly fire damage, but self damage too, it's not impossible that self damage related deaths counted as friendly fire related deaths in statistics.
10:16 the issue with this solution, is it wouldn't stop a loser from tpking the party in front of the drop pod. Like the Ghost ship games guy said, if they start taking preventative measures against this, the trolls will just find new ways to troll.
why even have a kick button, then, if griefers always figure out another way? there's clearly no reasonable line to prevent griefing, if this change isn't reasonable
I think reflection, if implemented, should kick in after the 2nd down, not first. There's loads of times where people accidentally run into a driller's C4 without him noticing, or run in front of an engineer's breach cutter shot, etc.
I only c4ed a scout on purpose once, my brother (he was scout) was downed and surrounded by bugs, the c4 was the only thing to help me save him
Driller be like: think fast chuckle nuts
My problem with the argument „use a mod“ is that 1) some people (like me) don’t understand how to find, install, and run mods and 2) some people (like me) play on potatoes that can’t run the mods without exploding
I always host so that I can police rogue dwarves. If someone is being excessively hostile then I wait til the end of the mission, drop pod coming in, then just close the game. No host = forced kick.
Planetside 2 has an admittedly much stricter, but also fairly effective solution to friendly fire. Every player has a stat that tracks how much friendly-fire damage they have done that decays over time. At early thresholds, the player is visibly warned with big red letters on screen that tell them to be more careful in the future. At the later thresholds, the game warns the player that their weapons will be *locked* preventing them from being able to engage in the game for a specific time period before it unlocks again.
I myself have been given this warning a few times in big chokehold fights, and have only ever once had my weapons locked in said fights, but that was during my learning period for the game, and with a particular weapon that's kind of easy to accidentally 5-shot burst your own allies with if they run in front of you.
Perhaps a somewhat similar system could be employed, but perhaps instead of locking the offending players weapons, the game just kicks them and prevents any rewards being payed out. Maybe in combination with the FF reflection system you mentioned. Maybe the players weapons could in fact be locked, preventing them from hurting other players for a set time period and giving the host enough time to perhaps kick them.