How large should the Tac squad be? That´s a rhetorical question. We are playing 30K with legions not chapters. This alone implies a lot of bodies. As a consequence you use twenty. Why not ten? The game should feel different to 40K where Tac squads and even CSM run around in 10-men squads. When might ten-men squads be useful? To pull off reaction shenanigans such as blocking streets to guard your important units. Put them in a rhino and keep them cheap as they are speed bumps who will get wiped anyway. Artificer Armour? Is mandatory, if equipped with power fist because you go last and need to be tough to survive until you get to swing. However the ludicrous rule of catching bullets for the squad is gamey like hell and doesn´t represent a proper war simulation. Other squad upgrades? If you have twenty dudes you are already committed to make sure they get proper gear to avoid getting wiped out quickly or run away otherwise you lose a lot of points pretty easily. This may include additional characters to boost morale or survivability. Importance of terrain Another life insurance is proper terrain. Most people paint their dudes to a high standard although the terrain is often lacking. What is the problem here? When all the units crawl around at ground level they can get assaulted very early in the game. The solution would be to include multi-level terrain like buildings with big floors or high hills with just a few slopes which permit travel atop of it. Tactical squads in such positions are relatively safe from assaults and can therefore play to their strengths. A spartan would ensure that said tactical squad gets in position asap. Assign also a dreadnought as a caretaker to such squads who guard the access lanes to the tactical squad.
Another great episode! One thing I haven't heard much discussion about is the value of a vexilla vs just having another guy in the squad, especially for a 10-man in a rhino.
Ref Augury Scanners and Interceptor. I took a drop pod list to the London GT - i got tabelled before Turn 2 in 2 different games, and lost all 5 games. Its a discussion for Reactions, not Tac squads but shooting reactions need taming. I've seen various ideas, such as a unit only being allowed to make 1 shooting reaction per game turn (so intercept OR return OR overwatch), losing shooting the following phase or even needing to pass an Init test to be 'fast' enough to react
Am I crazy as a Dark Angels player to plan giving my tacticals chainswords? Reason for this I can play them as Stormwing for +1 to hit with bolters and if necessary attach them a Deatwhing character to switch to Deathwing for +1 to hit with swords when I expect close combat... or even have them as Deathwing and just look for the close combat. They are pricey, but having a basic tactical squad hit on 3+ in most situations, the sergeant having a Calibnate warblade for +1 strength as well, same with the apothecary making it 2 power swords with strenght 5, all 11 of them in a Rhino with multi melta... does it sound solid, or is it just a paper-pusher's look at things? I am in general one who prefers going with several multi purpose units that can surprise instead of just relying on one-trick-pony lists based around deathstars. So maybe I'm too baised here trying to make the tactical units too versitile for what they are suposed to do.
SO in 1.0 I did it all the time, its a bit expensive now. I would say if you are managing to get the most out of it then its OK, I guess it kind of depends on your list. I could see it working. Overall I love the idea though. I think you just need some way of dealing with Deathstars (which is normally another deathstar) if you got the shooting power though to deal with, go with it, I would love to see them on the table. (Jason)
@@lostlegionspodcast3526 Thanks for your input. I should probably clarify my position to deathstars - I'm not really against having them in my list (especially as DA player some of the best looking models fall into that category), I just don't like to rely on them since the opponent will have their focus on them. One of the lists I was thinking about would be: HQ Corswain 10 Deathwing Companions + Proteus Land Raider - 575 points with various swords and shields and vexilla Librian (Deathwing) - Telepathy (to turn off reactions) - 105 points Chaplain (Deathwing) - Terranic Greatsword as Crozius Arcanum - 120 points Elites: 3x Apothecari with Calibanite War Blades (Stormwing - because of the units) 180 points Contemptor (Dreadwing) - Fist with melta, Plasma Cannon 200 points Inner Circle Knights Cenobium (Deathwing) + Proteus Land Raider - 510 points with vexilla and grenade harness Troops: 3x Tactical Squad (Stormwing) with chainswords, artificer armor + Calibanite warblade on sergeant, + Rhino with Multimelta - 245 points each Recce Squad (Firewing) with Nemesis bolters (augury scanner and nuncio vox) - 155 points Tactical Support Squad (Firewing) with rotor cannons - 110 points Fast Attack: Seekers (Firewing) - Sergeant with combi flamer - 110 points Being 3000 points in total So basically the list was thought of a way to make the reaction-choice as hard as possible, more than just using too many contemptors or a block of 10 lascanons to support the legion specific units. There are 3 typical targets for the opponents with the usual culprits Deathwing Companions, Contemptor and Inner Circle Cenobium, but between cheap units that might land the lucky pinning (recce and tactical squad) there is also the librarian who can turn off reactions - and even then I feel like the tactical squads with chainswords + a deathwing character might actually hit hard enough that you can't completely ignore them. On the other hand those 3 squads can also just stay on objectives shooting their bolters with 2+ to hit, while then rhinos are mostly there to annoy the opponent. 245 points + 60 for the apothecari is a lot (all 3 squads + 2 characters are actually a third of the army) - still to me it feels like one of those units that can be whatever you might need on the battlefield in a pinch. I don't think I would bother with a different legion, but +2 bolters and often enough +3 chainswords could make it viable for the DA or am I wrong? But that's a list from someone still building his army who hasn't had the chance to play yet, so it might be just theory.
How are you running your iron warriors tac squads? I've tried them with shrapnel Bolters in rhinos and loved them once they were in position - I did try 15 man squads against night lords but I forgot vexillas so lost a lot of guys running off the board 😂
Per hour thoughts on Malta Bombs.... Are they not instant death and would kill a rethought outright ? I am new to the game and am trying to understand not to act like I am correcting you. BTW really like your content.
I think they have a place still but you don't want to be fighting dreadnoughts with them.... 1 attack more than likely hitting on 5+ and going at initiative 1 is not great against a Dreadnought.
Something to think about. At 5 points a model. World Eaters turn those Chain swords to chain axes for free. So is the shred/+1 str plus extra attack worth the extra 3 points then?
Interesting point, way more worth it I think. It still depends on how you are going to use them thoough I would say. If they are just mooks sitting on objectives in the back it wont matter, if they are moving forward, it will totally make a diffrence.
Good point, although each tactical with chainaxe and bolter is 5 points per model more than each despoiler with chainaxe & bolt pistol. 5 points for a bolter on an aggressive, combat unit seems a lot. Ten tacticals with chain axes vs fifteen despoilers with chain axes for the same cost. You do also swap FOTL for SOTL but extra chainaxe attacks might make that worth it.
How large should the Tac squad be?
That´s a rhetorical question. We are playing 30K with legions not chapters. This alone implies a lot of bodies. As a consequence you use twenty. Why not ten? The game should feel different to 40K where Tac squads and even CSM run around in 10-men squads.
When might ten-men squads be useful? To pull off reaction shenanigans such as blocking streets to guard your important units. Put them in a rhino and keep them cheap as they are speed bumps who will get wiped anyway.
Artificer Armour?
Is mandatory, if equipped with power fist because you go last and need to be tough to survive until you get to swing. However the ludicrous rule of catching bullets for the squad is gamey like hell and doesn´t represent a proper war simulation.
Other squad upgrades?
If you have twenty dudes you are already committed to make sure they get proper gear to avoid getting wiped out quickly or run away otherwise you lose a lot of points pretty easily. This may include additional characters to boost morale or survivability.
Importance of terrain
Another life insurance is proper terrain. Most people paint their dudes to a high standard although the terrain is often lacking. What is the problem here? When all the units crawl around at ground level they can get assaulted very early in the game. The solution would be to include multi-level terrain like buildings with big floors or high hills with just a few slopes which permit travel atop of it. Tactical squads in such positions are relatively safe from assaults and can therefore play to their strengths.
A spartan would ensure that said tactical squad gets in position asap. Assign also a dreadnought as a caretaker to such squads who guard the access lanes to the tactical squad.
All great points. Especially the terrain part!
Another great episode!
One thing I haven't heard much discussion about is the value of a vexilla vs just having another guy in the squad, especially for a 10-man in a rhino.
Ref Augury Scanners and Interceptor. I took a drop pod list to the London GT - i got tabelled before Turn 2 in 2 different games, and lost all 5 games.
Its a discussion for Reactions, not Tac squads but shooting reactions need taming. I've seen various ideas, such as a unit only being allowed to make 1 shooting reaction per game turn (so intercept OR return OR overwatch), losing shooting the following phase or even needing to pass an Init test to be 'fast' enough to react
Somethin is needed for sure
The free centurion in Stormwing Right of War is very good for making 20 man Dark Angel blobs pretty hard hitting in close combat, surprisingly so.
I've been looking for this kind of deep dive into the nitty gritty in units. Great stuff.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on Tac Squads vs Despoiler Squads, but perhaps you can squeeze that topic into you Despoiler breakdown -?
He was "messing around with 12 men in a rhino"... cheeky
I always dislike that raven guard are forgotten. Infiltrate and 6+ shroud from over 8'' away. I say they're great for RG.
Am I crazy as a Dark Angels player to plan giving my tacticals chainswords? Reason for this I can play them as Stormwing for +1 to hit with bolters and if necessary attach them a Deatwhing character to switch to Deathwing for +1 to hit with swords when I expect close combat... or even have them as Deathwing and just look for the close combat. They are pricey, but having a basic tactical squad hit on 3+ in most situations, the sergeant having a Calibnate warblade for +1 strength as well, same with the apothecary making it 2 power swords with strenght 5, all 11 of them in a Rhino with multi melta... does it sound solid, or is it just a paper-pusher's look at things?
I am in general one who prefers going with several multi purpose units that can surprise instead of just relying on one-trick-pony lists based around deathstars. So maybe I'm too baised here trying to make the tactical units too versitile for what they are suposed to do.
SO in 1.0 I did it all the time, its a bit expensive now. I would say if you are managing to get the most out of it then its OK, I guess it kind of depends on your list. I could see it working. Overall I love the idea though.
I think you just need some way of dealing with Deathstars (which is normally another deathstar) if you got the shooting power though to deal with, go with it, I would love to see them on the table.
(Jason)
@@lostlegionspodcast3526 Thanks for your input.
I should probably clarify my position to deathstars - I'm not really against having them in my list (especially as DA player some of the best looking models fall into that category), I just don't like to rely on them since the opponent will have their focus on them.
One of the lists I was thinking about would be:
HQ
Corswain
10 Deathwing Companions + Proteus Land Raider - 575 points with various swords and shields and vexilla
Librian (Deathwing) - Telepathy (to turn off reactions) - 105 points
Chaplain (Deathwing) - Terranic Greatsword as Crozius Arcanum - 120 points
Elites:
3x Apothecari with Calibanite War Blades (Stormwing - because of the units) 180 points
Contemptor (Dreadwing) - Fist with melta, Plasma Cannon 200 points
Inner Circle Knights Cenobium (Deathwing) + Proteus Land Raider - 510 points with vexilla and grenade harness
Troops:
3x Tactical Squad (Stormwing) with chainswords, artificer armor + Calibanite warblade on sergeant, + Rhino with Multimelta - 245 points each
Recce Squad (Firewing) with Nemesis bolters (augury scanner and nuncio vox) - 155 points
Tactical Support Squad (Firewing) with rotor cannons - 110 points
Fast Attack:
Seekers (Firewing) - Sergeant with combi flamer - 110 points
Being 3000 points in total
So basically the list was thought of a way to make the reaction-choice as hard as possible, more than just using too many contemptors or a block of 10 lascanons to support the legion specific units. There are 3 typical targets for the opponents with the usual culprits Deathwing Companions, Contemptor and Inner Circle Cenobium, but between cheap units that might land the lucky pinning (recce and tactical squad) there is also the librarian who can turn off reactions - and even then I feel like the tactical squads with chainswords + a deathwing character might actually hit hard enough that you can't completely ignore them. On the other hand those 3 squads can also just stay on objectives shooting their bolters with 2+ to hit, while then rhinos are mostly there to annoy the opponent.
245 points + 60 for the apothecari is a lot (all 3 squads + 2 characters are actually a third of the army) - still to me it feels like one of those units that can be whatever you might need on the battlefield in a pinch. I don't think I would bother with a different legion, but +2 bolters and often enough +3 chainswords could make it viable for the DA or am I wrong?
But that's a list from someone still building his army who hasn't had the chance to play yet, so it might be just theory.
Never really understood why people feel the need to double the cost of a flimsy rhino for a single melta shot
How are you running your iron warriors tac squads? I've tried them with shrapnel Bolters in rhinos and loved them once they were in position - I did try 15 man squads against night lords but I forgot vexillas so lost a lot of guys running off the board 😂
Per hour thoughts on Malta Bombs.... Are they not instant death and would kill a rethought outright ? I am new to the game and am trying to understand not to act like I am correcting you. BTW really like your content.
Sorry about spelling auto correct... Melta bombs and Dreadnought
I think they have a place still but you don't want to be fighting dreadnoughts with them.... 1 attack more than likely hitting on 5+ and going at initiative 1 is not great against a Dreadnought.
Something to think about. At 5 points a model. World Eaters turn those Chain swords to chain axes for free. So is the shred/+1 str plus extra attack worth the extra 3 points then?
Interesting point, way more worth it I think. It still depends on how you are going to use them thoough I would say. If they are just mooks sitting on objectives in the back it wont matter, if they are moving forward, it will totally make a diffrence.
Good point, although each tactical with chainaxe and bolter is 5 points per model more than each despoiler with chainaxe & bolt pistol.
5 points for a bolter on an aggressive, combat unit seems a lot. Ten tacticals with chain axes vs fifteen despoilers with chain axes for the same cost.
You do also swap FOTL for SOTL but extra chainaxe attacks might make that worth it.
so wish breachers could take rhinos
Thank you!