Agree with all you say here Paul. I have my own ratings which are usually based on the temperature at lower levels, supported by layers for the altitudes (Lakes & Dales) and waterproof shell. This winter I have been extremely pleased with the wide range of temperatures achieved with my Rab Alpha Direct jacket. From 10 in the valleys down to sub zero windchill at the summit with just a lightweight merino base layer, at moderate hiking speeds it dumps moisture really well and is super comfortable.
David. I totally agree, the Rab Alpha Direct jacket is superb, I recently used mine in Canada in temperatures down to -30 c when fat biking in Algonquin Park. Mind you, as soon as we stopped I threw on my Thorium AR which I had in my pack. Paul.
Most of the customer confusion and warmth questions can be prevented by imposing the following regulatory requirements on all jacket makers: (1) Rank all of their own jackets in the order of warmth in standardized conditions, e.g., at rest, night time, 0-2 mph wind, 0-5% humidity. Most of the time I have a tough time figuring out how two jackets made by the same manufacturer (e.g., Arcteryx Atom LT vs Proton LT or Fjallraven Greenland No. 1 vs Skogso Padded) compare to each other. A good example of ranking their own jackets by warmth (and weight) is Montbell. (2) Rank their own jackets also by breathability and windproofing (one metric at a time). These two metrics are largely independent of physiology. (This is already usually done or at least doable in absolute units of meters for water-resistance, so I’m omitting it even though it’s a top-5 metric as well.) It drives me nuts to take the effort to patiently read product descriptions and even the brands’ own comparison pages and still be confused because they use different incomparable adjectives while describing different jackets on the same three most important metrics (other than water resistance): warmth, breathability, and wind protection. Thank you for your useful videos and answers to questions in comments. Crazy that videos like these are the recourse because the manufacturers are not effectively communicating with their end customers pushing that burden to the last seller in the supply chain.
Oh, if only there was one standard measurement of warmth that ALL the brands were obliged to use, it would make our lives so much easier! Trouble is, there isn't, and brands will choose tests that make their own products look good/better than competitors. You're right, it's an absolute minefield of conflicting data and it must be so confusing for the inexperienced end-user. That's where good retailers (like Trekitt) come in, we're happy to share our knowledge and real world experience in an unbiased way to make sure you get the right bit of kit. Thanks for watching and for taking the time to comment. Paul.
Eddie Bauer actually has a temperature rating for its jackets that I find to be very inconsistent with my experience. To give an example, I have the Microtherm 2.0 from them, and it's rated for -5 degrees Fahrenheit for moderate activity. For me, this jacket does not work well alone at all below freezing, even with moderate activity! Great video by the way.
While I understand the premise of why it's not possible to have a definitive temperature rating for jackets it would be helpful if manufacturers could give a rough guide as to what temperatures we could expect the garment to perform well in and it's wind resistance. I don't want to buy a huge stuffed jacket designed for Arctic conditions to use in the UK nor do I want a thin jacket that isn't warm enough either. Looking at all the specs, down fill, weight, etc doesn't help a lot nor does watching review videos where everybody tells us how toasty warm their jacket is. Anecdotal information is okay but unreliable and I'd prefer some kind of measurement even if not totally accurate to work from. I know from experience that sleeping bag ratings aren't accurate for me. I'm skinny and I've been cold in a "four season" bag with silk liner camping in the Mendips in August. But I guess that's just me LOL. I bought the four season bag after cold restless nights in a three season bag.
So I get cold hands. For me the best down jacket is one that has a layer of insulation over the pockets and ideally fleece lined pockets. Even if my core is warm I'll be uncomfortable at 5 degrees or lower if I can't snug my hands away behind a hefty wad of down or primaloft or both. Insulated jacket brands that for whatever reason, sometimes weight saving, don't properly insulate the hand warming pockets are worse than useless to me in winter. Brands that use stitch-through construction where there are lots of stitches in the pocket area, creating cold spots, are similarly problematix for me. Sure I wear gloves sometimes but people who get cold hands often need to put those hands near a warm core to heat them up. I even have some OR self-heating gloves for trips to nordic countries in winter. Oddly, my face rarely gets that cold and I can grow a thick beard so I tend not to wear balaclavas or neck warmers unless it's ridiculously cold (say a windy - 15 and lower) Insulation is a very individual thing and what works for one person might be a poor solution for another. It's also not about cost or fill power or other factors that can mislead. Some micro down products are OK as Midlayers but their microbaffle designs are too drafty as an outer layer for the kind of humid cold you get in Scotland, for instance. Some 700 and 750 fill products (thinking of UK brands such as ME, Rab, Montane and Berghaus) are more effective than some competitors 800 or 850 fill products because of baffle design, shell technology and the amount of down in key areas. They're also made by and for people climbing and hiking in a cold, wet & windy climates. That can influence pocket insulation, zip & storm placket design, hood design & other factors that make a world of difference.
@@trekitt thanks and yes, I think there's no substitute for experience. There's a lot of really high quality gear out there as you know & the overall standard of finish and materials is really high. Breathability for waterproof gear has come on leaps and bounds in the last 2 decades & lightweight insulation provides astonishing heat /gramme. What separates good from great is what fits best, feels most comfortable and has the features most important for the wearer. A buyer could get lucky but they really have to try stuff to find what's best for them.
I can't accept this line of reasoning. There is no reason why we can't create garment ratings based on a set of known assumptions. Garments could be tested at specific levels of temperature/humidity/windiness/activity (with assumptions on things like expected base layer, gender, etc) that are representative of conditions of common usage scenarios, but garment makers don't, even though they could. It's not that many variables, and battling the elements is a problem every hominid has had for 1 million years, so why don't garment companies do it? Why not have the equivalent of an "R-value" rating for cold weather garments? My bet is that garment companies actually avoid giving concrete performance ratings to 1. avoid the possibility of liability (if the jacket is rated for conditions X/Y/Z but someone still dies of exposure in conditions X/Y/Z while wearing that company's jacket) and 2. sell clothing at a premium based on fashion and style rather than on real performance and quality.
Sleeping bags and sleeping mats, for example, are used almost identically by everyone, just in different environments. You get in/on them and stay still; easy. The assumed variables are that you're reasonably well fed, have a limited amount of airflow seeping through your shelter and, in the case of a sleeping bag, have a good mat to go along with it. A jacket has a few variables that could be assumed such as wind and humidity, but assuming an activity level for a jacket that is designed to work for both walking around our English countryside as well as alpine climbing isn't realistic. Someone will be bitterly disappointed in their new jacket if it's rated to -20°C (because the manufacturer has assumed you'll be alpine climbing in it) whereas in actual fact you're just walking the dog. The versatility of products these days is huge, and as such there really isn't a way to accurately offer a rating without either offering false information, or information that just isn't useful because it's so vague.
valid points, but it would still be useful, which is why many companies have started doing so. What you get is the relative difference between garments of the same type, which is nice to have when online shopping.
Respectfully I have to disagree...sort of. All the variables you have mentioned will certainly scale regardless of the jacket you choose. For example you will always feel warmer by some degree after hiking up a hill, regardless of whether you have a lightly insulated jacket, or a heavily insulated jacket. You will always feel colder by some degree when it's windier, regardless of whether you have a lightly or heavily insulated jacket on. The only possible exception to this would be humidity/dampness when comparing down and synthetic fibres, however this is a pretty well known distinction. Furthermore, I would contest that perception of warmth as a variable based on such things as gender, age, body type is entirely irrelevant as it is purely subjective. The insulating properties of the jacket don't change because you're a somewhat overweight Scotsman with a predilection for whisky such as myself. When you write a scientific paper you always have to be careful to be aware of and state your assumptions in any given situation. That is the basis of the EN regulations you mention; to set a standard baseline from which everything can be measured equally. By setting a standard of, for example: standing still for 30 minutes, in 10kt wind, at 0°C, and say 60% relative humidity, you can measure the insulating properties of the jacket (at various points within) quite easily. That said (and this is where the 'sort of' comes in), I absolutely wouldn't advocate a temperature rating system, as it is quite meaningless. In fact a temperature rating system would render most of the variables you mention absolutely relevant. I would propose some kind of insulation index/category, analogous to the B1/2/3 rating system for boots. One could perform the described test above, and come up with a tiered system to describe the _insulating properties_ of the jacket. You then have a scale by which to judge the effectiveness of the jacket in any given situation through inference. Keen to hear your thoughts on this. Also, I must say, Trekitt are genuinely producing some of the best content on UA-cam aimed at informing us all about outdoor gear. Thanks.
Hi Chris. Wow, thanks for your considered and comprehensive comments. I completely agree with all that you said and it's a constant pain in t'arse that there isn't a definitive rating system for clothing as we are constantly asked "is this jacket warmer than that jacket". However, even if there were a definitive rating system, the users perception of warmth will always be different depending on the variables that I mentioned. In the end, you can't beat good old experience and common sense! Paul.
@@trekitt Yes, completely agree, no substitue for experience. It would be helpful for people who know what they want, but haven't had the chance to try on a 100 different jackets like yourselves! Haha. P.S. Any chance you'll be stocking Jöttnar in future? Would be great to see some reviews of their kit from you guys. It looks really interesting. Cheers.
As a very general rule of thumb, more down = warmer. Fill power also factors in and also construction, but essentially if it's puffier and has more down it should be warmer.
I completely disagree. A set of known variables can be set. The jacket can be tested with those known set of variables. This would give you a base line to work from. Manufacturers do not want this. It’s easier to sell items based on how well your marketing hype is. If I buy a flashlight with a rating of ipx68 I know it’s dustproof and water resistant to 3 meters. To use your analogy, it would be like saying what if I’m moving the flashlight under water, what if the wind is blowing the dust 100 mph. What if I have another layer plastic bag over it. None of this matters. IPX standards are based on known variable and test criteria. The same can be done for jackets.
Hi, is it possible to buy a puffer jacket (in the uk) that can be worn without overheating. I bought a nice looking 'copy', but I can hardly wear it because it is just too warm.
We stock a huge range of different insulated jackets, all ranging in weight and warmth. If your current jacket is too warm, try to pick something with a lower quantity of insulation. I can't recommend a particular jacket as it depends what you're using it for - a Scottish winter jacket will be very different to one you'd wear around town, for example. I use an Arc'teryx Atom LT for everyday use/walking during the winter and it's about ideal with just a t-shirt underneath. Harry
Jacob, there was simply too much info to get across to keep the video short. Besides, I was really enjoying the sunshine and didn't want to hurry back to the office! Paul.
I give them my own ratings temperature wise...... BOILING, USELESS and TOTALLY BLOODY USELESS Value ratings ................................................... CHEAP , FAIR and ARE YOU BLEEDING KIDDING!
Agree with all you say here Paul. I have my own ratings which are usually based on the temperature at lower levels, supported by layers for the altitudes (Lakes & Dales) and waterproof shell. This winter I have been extremely pleased with the wide range of temperatures achieved with my Rab Alpha Direct jacket. From 10 in the valleys down to sub zero windchill at the summit with just a lightweight merino base layer, at moderate hiking speeds it dumps moisture really well and is super comfortable.
David. I totally agree, the Rab Alpha Direct jacket is superb, I recently used mine in Canada in temperatures down to -30 c when fat biking in Algonquin Park. Mind you, as soon as we stopped I threw on my Thorium AR which I had in my pack. Paul.
Most of the customer confusion and warmth questions can be prevented by imposing the following regulatory requirements on all jacket makers:
(1) Rank all of their own jackets in the order of warmth in standardized conditions, e.g., at rest, night time, 0-2 mph wind, 0-5% humidity. Most of the time I have a tough time figuring out how two jackets made by the same manufacturer (e.g., Arcteryx Atom LT vs Proton LT or Fjallraven Greenland No. 1 vs Skogso Padded) compare to each other. A good example of ranking their own jackets by warmth (and weight) is Montbell.
(2) Rank their own jackets also by breathability and windproofing (one metric at a time). These two metrics are largely independent of physiology. (This is already usually done or at least doable in absolute units of meters for water-resistance, so I’m omitting it even though it’s a top-5 metric as well.)
It drives me nuts to take the effort to patiently read product descriptions and even the brands’ own comparison pages and still be confused because they use different incomparable adjectives while describing different jackets on the same three most important metrics (other than water resistance): warmth, breathability, and wind protection.
Thank you for your useful videos and answers to questions in comments. Crazy that videos like these are the recourse because the manufacturers are not effectively communicating with their end customers pushing that burden to the last seller in the supply chain.
Oh, if only there was one standard measurement of warmth that ALL the brands were obliged to use, it would make our lives so much easier! Trouble is, there isn't, and brands will choose tests that make their own products look good/better than competitors.
You're right, it's an absolute minefield of conflicting data and it must be so confusing for the inexperienced end-user. That's where good retailers (like Trekitt) come in, we're happy to share our knowledge and real world experience in an unbiased way to make sure you get the right bit of kit.
Thanks for watching and for taking the time to comment. Paul.
Eddie Bauer actually has a temperature rating for its jackets that I find to be very inconsistent with my experience. To give an example, I have the Microtherm 2.0 from them, and it's rated for -5 degrees Fahrenheit for moderate activity. For me, this jacket does not work well alone at all below freezing, even with moderate activity! Great video by the way.
Unfortunately that's the difficulty with temperature ratings, everyone is different! Thanks for sharing your experience. Harry
What a great video idea! Thank you!
You are so welcome!
While I understand the premise of why it's not possible to have a definitive temperature rating for jackets it would be helpful if manufacturers could give a rough guide as to what temperatures we could expect the garment to perform well in and it's wind resistance. I don't want to buy a huge stuffed jacket designed for Arctic conditions to use in the UK nor do I want a thin jacket that isn't warm enough either.
Looking at all the specs, down fill, weight, etc doesn't help a lot nor does watching review videos where everybody tells us how toasty warm their jacket is. Anecdotal information is okay but unreliable and I'd prefer some kind of measurement even if not totally accurate to work from.
I know from experience that sleeping bag ratings aren't accurate for me. I'm skinny and I've been cold in a "four season" bag with silk liner camping in the Mendips in August. But I guess that's just me LOL. I bought the four season bag after cold restless nights in a three season bag.
Problem is that thin, wind-resistant jackets can very well be preferable in cold temperatures provided you wear good base layers.
Interesting video, good structure and well put together
Thanks for your comments Kevin; we aim to please. Paul.
So I get cold hands. For me the best down jacket is one that has a layer of insulation over the pockets and ideally fleece lined pockets. Even if my core is warm I'll be uncomfortable at 5 degrees or lower if I can't snug my hands away behind a hefty wad of down or primaloft or both. Insulated jacket brands that for whatever reason, sometimes weight saving, don't properly insulate the hand warming pockets are worse than useless to me in winter. Brands that use stitch-through construction where there are lots of stitches in the pocket area, creating cold spots, are similarly problematix for me. Sure I wear gloves sometimes but people who get cold hands often need to put those hands near a warm core to heat them up. I even have some OR self-heating gloves for trips to nordic countries in winter. Oddly, my face rarely gets that cold and I can grow a thick beard so I tend not to wear balaclavas or neck warmers unless it's ridiculously cold (say a windy - 15 and lower) Insulation is a very individual thing and what works for one person might be a poor solution for another. It's also not about cost or fill power or other factors that can mislead. Some micro down products are OK as Midlayers but their microbaffle designs are too drafty as an outer layer for the kind of humid cold you get in Scotland, for instance. Some 700 and 750 fill products (thinking of UK brands such as ME, Rab, Montane and Berghaus) are more effective than some competitors 800 or 850 fill products because of baffle design, shell technology and the amount of down in key areas. They're also made by and for people climbing and hiking in a cold, wet & windy climates. That can influence pocket insulation, zip & storm placket design, hood design & other factors that make a world of difference.
Phew, there's lots of good points in these comments, and just proves that experience and knowledge are always the best guide when buying gear. Paul.
@@trekitt thanks and yes, I think there's no substitute for experience. There's a lot of really high quality gear out there as you know & the overall standard of finish and materials is really high. Breathability for waterproof gear has come on leaps and bounds in the last 2 decades & lightweight insulation provides astonishing heat /gramme. What separates good from great is what fits best, feels most comfortable and has the features most important for the wearer. A buyer could get lucky but they really have to try stuff to find what's best for them.
I wore a leather jacket over a hoodie over a long sleeve shirt as cold as 20 degrees Fahrenheit and I find it comfortable.
That's great David. Thanks for watching. Paul.
I can't accept this line of reasoning. There is no reason why we can't create garment ratings based on a set of known assumptions. Garments could be tested at specific levels of temperature/humidity/windiness/activity (with assumptions on things like expected base layer, gender, etc) that are representative of conditions of common usage scenarios, but garment makers don't, even though they could. It's not that many variables, and battling the elements is a problem every hominid has had for 1 million years, so why don't garment companies do it? Why not have the equivalent of an "R-value" rating for cold weather garments? My bet is that garment companies actually avoid giving concrete performance ratings to 1. avoid the possibility of liability (if the jacket is rated for conditions X/Y/Z but someone still dies of exposure in conditions X/Y/Z while wearing that company's jacket) and 2. sell clothing at a premium based on fashion and style rather than on real performance and quality.
Sleeping bags and sleeping mats, for example, are used almost identically by everyone, just in different environments. You get in/on them and stay still; easy. The assumed variables are that you're reasonably well fed, have a limited amount of airflow seeping through your shelter and, in the case of a sleeping bag, have a good mat to go along with it.
A jacket has a few variables that could be assumed such as wind and humidity, but assuming an activity level for a jacket that is designed to work for both walking around our English countryside as well as alpine climbing isn't realistic. Someone will be bitterly disappointed in their new jacket if it's rated to -20°C (because the manufacturer has assumed you'll be alpine climbing in it) whereas in actual fact you're just walking the dog. The versatility of products these days is huge, and as such there really isn't a way to accurately offer a rating without either offering false information, or information that just isn't useful because it's so vague.
At the end of the day, each to their own. Some people run hot, some cold. What works at one temperature for one will not for another.
Very true! When I'm hiking I'm just in a coolmax t shirt and a ripstop jacket in temperatures from minus 3 to 9 c,
How very true, you can't beat experience to really understand how kit will perform. Paul.
Hey Paul , thanks for the nice vid !
Btw is this the black or blue night/cosmos version of the lightline you're wearing?
No probs! Black.
@@trekitt thank you very much, looks great!
Greetings from Germany
valid points, but it would still be useful, which is why many companies have started doing so. What you get is the relative difference between garments of the same type, which is nice to have when online shopping.
Good point, but that couldn't take into account age, weight, metabolism, weather etc.
Great explanation, thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Respectfully I have to disagree...sort of. All the variables you have mentioned will certainly scale regardless of the jacket you choose. For example you will always feel warmer by some degree after hiking up a hill, regardless of whether you have a lightly insulated jacket, or a heavily insulated jacket. You will always feel colder by some degree when it's windier, regardless of whether you have a lightly or heavily insulated jacket on. The only possible exception to this would be humidity/dampness when comparing down and synthetic fibres, however this is a pretty well known distinction.
Furthermore, I would contest that perception of warmth as a variable based on such things as gender, age, body type is entirely irrelevant as it is purely subjective. The insulating properties of the jacket don't change because you're a somewhat overweight Scotsman with a predilection for whisky such as myself.
When you write a scientific paper you always have to be careful to be aware of and state your assumptions in any given situation. That is the basis of the EN regulations you mention; to set a standard baseline from which everything can be measured equally. By setting a standard of, for example: standing still for 30 minutes, in 10kt wind, at 0°C, and say 60% relative humidity, you can measure the insulating properties of the jacket (at various points within) quite easily.
That said (and this is where the 'sort of' comes in), I absolutely wouldn't advocate a temperature rating system, as it is quite meaningless. In fact a temperature rating system would render most of the variables you mention absolutely relevant. I would propose some kind of insulation index/category, analogous to the B1/2/3 rating system for boots. One could perform the described test above, and come up with a tiered system to describe the _insulating properties_ of the jacket. You then have a scale by which to judge the effectiveness of the jacket in any given situation through inference.
Keen to hear your thoughts on this.
Also, I must say, Trekitt are genuinely producing some of the best content on UA-cam aimed at informing us all about outdoor gear. Thanks.
Hi Chris. Wow, thanks for your considered and comprehensive comments. I completely agree with all that you said and it's a constant pain in t'arse that there isn't a definitive rating system for clothing as we are constantly asked "is this jacket warmer than that jacket". However, even if there were a definitive rating system, the users perception of warmth will always be different depending on the variables that I mentioned. In the end, you can't beat good old experience and common sense! Paul.
@@trekitt Yes, completely agree, no substitue for experience. It would be helpful for people who know what they want, but haven't had the chance to try on a 100 different jackets like yourselves! Haha.
P.S. Any chance you'll be stocking Jöttnar in future? Would be great to see some reviews of their kit from you guys. It looks really interesting. Cheers.
I woild imagine more down in it means its warmer. Some jackets are so thin ir little down than others wuch re more padded
As a very general rule of thumb, more down = warmer. Fill power also factors in and also construction, but essentially if it's puffier and has more down it should be warmer.
ME changabang overview?
We're planning to film a whole range of shell jackets soon, so I'll add it to the list. Kind regards, Harry.
Thanks Paul and Harry: Where are the dogs?
Running about in Monmouth that day!
I completely disagree. A set of known variables can be set. The jacket can be tested with those known set of variables. This would give you a base line to work from. Manufacturers do not want this. It’s easier to sell items based on how well your marketing hype is. If I buy a flashlight with a rating of ipx68 I know it’s dustproof and water resistant to 3 meters. To use your analogy, it would be like saying what if I’m moving the flashlight under water, what if the wind is blowing the dust 100 mph. What if I have another layer plastic bag over it. None of this matters. IPX standards are based on known variable and test criteria. The same can be done for jackets.
Actually I have seen temperature rating of down jacket at decathlon
They exist, but whether they're useful or not is another thing.
Hi, is it possible to buy a puffer jacket (in the uk) that can be worn without overheating. I bought a nice looking 'copy', but I can hardly wear it because it is just too warm.
We stock a huge range of different insulated jackets, all ranging in weight and warmth. If your current jacket is too warm, try to pick something with a lower quantity of insulation. I can't recommend a particular jacket as it depends what you're using it for - a Scottish winter jacket will be very different to one you'd wear around town, for example. I use an Arc'teryx Atom LT for everyday use/walking during the winter and it's about ideal with just a t-shirt underneath. Harry
at -15 the air will always be dry :)
Fair point!
Get to the point quicker.. 13 min. Is way to long.
Jacob, there was simply too much info to get across to keep the video short. Besides, I was really enjoying the sunshine and didn't want to hurry back to the office! Paul.
I give them my own ratings temperature wise...... BOILING, USELESS and TOTALLY BLOODY USELESS
Value ratings ................................................... CHEAP , FAIR and ARE YOU BLEEDING KIDDING!
Lee, concise and candid, maybe we can get some of the brands to adopt your classifications 😜
Cause not everyone has the same body type. Some guys have more fatter than others. So it won’t be accurate
Fair comment.