How To Make A MINI FORGE For Knife Making. Testing to see if it actually works.
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- How to make a mini forge for knife making. In this video I show how to make a cheap heat treating forge, and see whether you can realistically heat treat a knife using it. You could probably forge a small knife using this mini forge but mainly its for heat treating after stock removal. This is a great way to get started with knife making. You can absolutely heat treat a knife using a mini forge like this one, if you pay attention to a couple details.
Chapters
00:00 Can you actually heat treat a knife with this stuff?
00:31 Quick disclaimer about steel
01:38 How to Make a mini forge
03:35 Going over the testing to see if this will actually work for heat treating
05:03 Fine tuning the burn chamber MUST DO THIS
05:35 First test
07:51 Mini forge fail! Watch previous segments to know why
09:18 Trying it again with another knife
10:25 SUCCESS!
Stuff used in video I could find links for⬇️
Fire bricks amzn.to/3J3SX6G
Torch amzn.to/3ZZdoaM
Parks 50 amzn.to/3DamoAh
(you can also use water so I didn't include it in the price in the video)
Also check pricing as it can change overnight.
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These are amazon affiliate links.
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For entertainment only. I am not, and will not be held responsible for anyone re-enacting/ duplicating anything seen in these videos. Do so at your own risk. Do not duplicate anything seen in this video. Unless you are an adult responsible for your own decisions. Thanks
All my videos are copyright protected and not for sale. - Навчання та стиль
I really wish there was more content like yours on UA-cam. There's plenty of makers using all the best gear, but I really appreciate the appeal to the beginner without making me feel stupid. Keep up the great content!
Yup... ^THIS^
Thanks for another amazing video Alex 😁👍
i want to start forging too, this help a lot.
Same, just recently found (and subbed to) this channel within the last month or so. I’ve never considered myself an expert on blades and sharpening them but I’m not a rookie either. There’s a lot of good knowledge to be had here and he keeps it interesting for pretty much anyone wanting/willing to learn. I appreciate that he works with products that are readily available and usually reasonably priced. Too many channels out there working with unlimited budgets (thanks to sponsors) and showing off their “unobtainium”. I’m more interested in the “regular guy’s perspective.
@@MrIgottapEven worse is when they have unlimited budget and give awful advice still, quenching water quench steel in canola oil or something.
I can say for certain that this method works exactly as shown, because, after watching your intro knife-making guide, I heat treated a knife pretty much exactly the same way. That said, I did use heated canola oil, as I think another UA-camr had perhaps advised. I ran into no problems in the course of making two knives which have been in regular use in my kitchen for about a year. Thank you again for this very helpful recap.
O1 can also be done using this method.
After a couple of knives I quickly build myself a heat treating oven and that works alot easier with actually temperature control.
this has to be one of THE BEST intro's to budget / beginner heat treat techniques out there.
absolutely brilliant.
My tip for this would be that you can get the fire bricks from a pottery supply store (which might be local) a lot cheaper than Amazon.
I have a tip, and I use a forge to heat treat. It's worth getting a known annealed (not coarse spheroidized) sample and getting it just nonmagnetic with no further temperature change, and then quenching the steel and snapping it.
Then, buying or if already on hand, using a hand held microscope (of the $17 variety off of ebay) to take pictures of the sample.
then until the following is doable, test methods using offcuts of various alloys and save the pictures with titles (this is probably useful with a furnace, too)
* confirm that the samples done to the same eye/color control as a knife don't have coarser grain than the original low-processed low heat sample
* work on thermal cycling to be able to bring a coarsened sample back past the point to where the scope picture of the snapped sample is better than the original low-temp fine structure
if using something very high in carbon, like 26c3, buy a nicholson file or a good vintage file and snap it. the iron carbides will make it look slightly more coarse.
These kinds of experiments take about an hour tucked in some day when you're not, including the documentation (the small samples in a small forge take only minutes, even with thermal cycling).
I have never bought a furnace because I don't make anything but chisels professionally, and I can match and in some cases better book toughness at same hardness with excess carbon steels (I use 26c3 most of the time). But it probably took a few combined hours of experimenting over a period of a month or two to learn what refines and grows grain, and how much different some steels are vs. others (for example, 1084 grain growth is almost instant - 26c3 is much less quick to grow grain, as is 80crv2, but it takes experimenting to find out how far past nonmagnetic by eye - and how long).
The reason I use a small forge for chisels and small knives (I have three forges, including one that's a typical large two burner stainless type that will output more BTUs than two gas grills on high) instead of buying a furnace is chisels get hardened only to the bolster (no reason to heat them past there) and fully hardened only about 80% of the way up there - and because the thermal cycling needed to bring back grain size for 26c3 takes only a couple of minutes with a chisel - all of it, including the final heat to quench, vs. waiting a long time for a furnace.
That and my tested samples/coupons from the forge are tougher at typical hardness (64) than any of the furnace samples the metallurgist had on file. they were subpar before this perhaps unromantic array of testing and comparing samples. Pictures are needed to really get down to brass tacks because once you can better something like a commercial file, it's not always easy to just eyeball something and tell if it's better than another past effort.
All of this costs almost nothing - the hand scope that I use was $12 - the cigar shaped ones that are everywhere.
Great video, as always! A trick for making sure you have reached the curie point (and where in the blade that is happening) is watching for recalescence/decalescence. When HTing in 2 brick forges, another thing that can help is making it a pass-through design and building an "alcove" in front the mouth of the forge out of some additional fire bricks. It gives enough space for your tongs, but helps hold the heat in there so you can pump the blade in and out through the hot spot to draw the temperature more evenly. This requires having a sidearm burner or something like that - you can't quite pull it off with a plumbing torch.
I’ve used this same mini forge technique in the past with great results. I had a 2 inch wide chamber with a good MAPP torch and quench in Parks 50. As long as you get get an even heat you should have a good hard blade! Great video brother 😎🤘🏻
thank you for the tutorial, I really like your design so I have ordered the same bricks to use, I was going to spend £150 on the cheapest forge I could buy but your design ran me just under £50 including buying a blowtorch, bricks and propane.
It’s easy to think, “Oh just heat treat it. Make it harder & tougher & easier to sharpen.” I appreciate you taking the time to remind us smithing is a skilled trade. Like all skilled trades, you gotta put your time in, you don’t just magically become proficient.
Love your content.
Cheers!
Super interesting Vid! Keep'em coming!
Great video, cheers
Great video!
Great video, as usual!
Great video, appreciate you sharing this.
Thank you so much for this great info.
Good to see you back at recording again!
I can't wait to try this out 💯
I'd love to see you tough on freezer cryo straight after the quench. It's impressive how well it works for something so humble. It just has to be done as quickly as possible. Your two big blocks put in the freezer might help speed that up even more.
That’s awesome!
Really helpful and crisp. All essential info in one place. Really good for those who want economic setup. Keep up man.
Great fun, I'm doin' it!
These are my favorite kind of videos. Thank you for all your hard work. You make knife making interesting!
Good one my friend !!
This was fantastic. I've been wanting to try some of the techniques you've been demonstrating as I want to invest in some sanders for various other purposes too. But the blocker was the heat treatment & great to see an alternative.
Thank you so very much for putting this together, it really does help reduce the sense of complexity that heat treatment brings to the stage of forging one’s first knife and demonstrating that it can be done with just a few simple techniques!
Your skills are greatly appreciated and your knowledge is gratefully received!
You are awesome. Thank you so much for this video!
Glad it was helpful!
Great content! You made me sharpen my own knifes. Have a great day! Don't over work yourself ✊
Hell
Yeah man. Thanks again for all you do
Thanks for sharing your empirical approach to diy knife making. It's cool that you do the crude method, but then go on to actually measure the results quite precisely to draw the conclusions on what went right and what went wrong.
It really helps us beginners to understand our mistakes. And not to give up...
As a beginner myself it definitely helps me too! Thanks for taking the time to comment 👍
thank you for sharing your knowledge brother, I am impressed by the big difference of 20 units of hardness, from the colors on the blade it didn't look like that
GOOD JOB
Thanks for this content man. It's so excellent and the way you explain everything is so clear! Please don't stop posting. Keep it up.🤘
I appreciate that!
Cool vid. Nice portaband stand dude!
I'm a little confused why my comments keep getting removed
Love the 8bit chip tunes
I always enjoy watching your videos.
No matter what you are doing,it's interesting
I appreciate that!
Very cool vid, great for beginners and like you said steel choice is very important. Throw in a toaster oven for tempering and your set. Thanks for the great vid and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
Love it
superb video! i've got the steel, got the bricks, got the oil but i've been putting it off because ... heat treatment can sound pretty intimidating to rookies like me. that said i think i can do what you did here so, as you say, get it done! 👍👍✌🖖
very good youtuber! You will reach the 1 Million soon :D
Hope so! Maybe one day🙂 Thanks for watching 🙏
@@OUTDOORS55 I am from Germany and yes :D
Thank for the excellent content! This is the way to go, My first attempt at heat treatment was done in a fire pit shaped like a hopper. I drilled holes in a piece of 3/4” pipe which I coved with hardwood charcoal. The pipe was hooked up to a shop vac to provide air. In no time I melted a carefully hand made knife blank made out of 1095. I was shocked how hot that forge got. It was so disappointing. This is the way to go,
This was very intriguing! The barrier for entry into knife making has always felt so huge but this is a great way to get your foot in the door. Now if you can show me how to make an $80 2x72 grinder I’ll be off to the races lol.
Thank you for all your videos! I used to do some blacksmithing and I am a long time knife enthusiast so it only makes sense I dip my toes into blade smithing. I will soon be making my first knife out of 1084 and micarta.
Good luck 👍
@@OUTDOORS55 Thank you👍🏻
awesome!
Konten yang sangat membantu terima kasih❤
Hello, Alex;
Another great video, "THANK YOU!"
I wondered, can you reharden a hardened blade?
If you see this, please let us know you're opinion.
You are one of the more trustworthy sources & I for one appreciate it, IMO.
Have a GREAT day, Neighbor!
You can but Would take some time to re anneal.
@@OUTDOORS55
Thanks, pal!
LUV ur channel!
I have made several knives using 1095 high carbon steel, I wonder if this setup would work. It sure would beat my charcoal chimney with lump charcoal and a hair dryer heat treating that I have been using. My system works, I have made some knives and torture tested them and they have held up, but I would prefer an easier way to heat treat. Thanks for sharing.
An even cheaper and beginner friendly method is just making a plaster and sand combo forge. Soft bricks are expensive and this way can give you a few uses to see if you like the hobby or if you're just making a knife for yourself
Soft bricks are $28 for 2. Thats hard to beat even with plaster and sand. Not to mention the time saving involved. I would definitely recommend soft firebrick over plaster diy. It's easier, less messy, way less time consuming, and will heat up better and hold in the heat. Just my opinion though from trying both methods.🙂
I made a lot of knives in almost exactly this way using a single brick. I made a larger hole (probably 1.75 inches) and wrapped the whole brick in thin steel wire to hold it together so the cracks weren't a big deal (you can use copper, or whatever). The angle and location of the entry point for the torch makes a big difference. I made mine so that the entry point was near the back, angled down and towards the front. Then the flame swirls down the center of the brick towards the front and heats it up more quickly and evenly (. I was heat treating 1/4 stock knives. It took about 3-4 minutes to get the 1/4 stock up to the right temperature but it totally works with a bigger hole and thicker stock. If you pay very close attention to the way the blade is heating up, you can even get a great "dirty hamon" with this setup.
I have actually made small 5" utility knives in a one brick forge, so, yes heat treating in one of these is perfectly feasible.
You can always heat your water to help avoid edge cracking during quenching. This set up, down to the magnet is all straight out of Wayne Goddard's book, the $50 knife shop. Awesome book
I would love to see you do other steels on this setup. can it handle the trendy steels right now? cpm154, Nitro-v, 14c28n? it would also be cool to see you heat treat something that is maybe too advanced for the setup and see how it fairs against higher end steels. Awesome video as always!
No forge will handle those steels. You need exact temperature control in a kiln for them.
ApexUltra is a new, exciting steel you could heat treat in a forge, though!
I dont even have to watch this to know it works. Ive done it! It does work for multiple types of steel, but definitely not everything. Good for beginning. EDIT: I use two torches, one towards the front and one towards the back. Also, I used canola oil and had no issues, but that doesnt mean it wasnt dumb luck and you wont run into problems at all
I wonder if an air acetylene torch would be more forgiving - except I'd have concerns about damaging the torch nozzle. Maybe the propane torch is the better option for starting out.
i always wanted to try making this but this also makes me wonder a few thing can you answer or try them out in a video. like you messed up the heat treatment a bit at the tip and end of the first knife is that not salvageable? you made a video you can over temper for too long, but like with the first knife can you try again, such as heating the whole thing back up again and try to quench it again. and if you temper it down from to 60 and try heat Treat to whole thing again and quench. and or maybe try heating Treat just the tip and back parts only and quench. oh and maybe a video about different quench oil like you sway to worm it up but how much is warm really? if different oil would need to be more hot than parks 50 and what about water warm it up or room temp or cooled and such. nice video gl in next videos
With a forge that tight around the blade, would it help if the forge was a bit wider right at the torch inlet to allow the flame to circulate around to both sides of the blade?
I like this, makes me think it's within my reach, and I know you can hamon treat 84 but I would like to know what you would recommend to clay and water quench something like a spicy white steel, it's pretty cheap to buy and has good reviews as a steel too, only the hamon of course makes it potentially nicer looking. It takes a higher hardness than 84 too so I am thinking for smaller knives it's edge is going to last longer.
You reckon this kind of forge could do that? If not, what modifications would you make?
Wouldnt it be somewhat of a good thing to have a softer tip? So it just bends instead of breaking? Just curious. Thanks for these videos. I'm really wanting to make some knives.
What would happen if you used 2 torches? One more towards the back and the other a little closer to the front. Do you think that would give a better more consistent heat?
Can u pls show a quench of d2 steel knife?
You talk about Parks-50. I am just starting I don’t have a forge but was wondering should I start P-50 or would another oil be ok to see if I’m going to like making knives. I’m 72 yoa and only have grip in my left hand also I’ve been in a wheelchair since 1969 any suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Randy
Sweet
Hi. Can i use carbon steel 80CrV2?
Will this method work for 1094 also? Or are they too different?
I feel like it would work, but idk..
I made one of these but it can never get my blade up to non magnetic even after leaving in over for ten minutes. I’ve tried the blue torch and even yellow torches from Home Depot. Is there a better torch I need that will get hotter?
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ amazon sells a whole kit really cheap... but... really cheap. Bought it and was like.... dang.... that was a waste
What kit was it?
@@OUTDOORS55 Atkrou Gy100 everything started out ok. But then it wouldnt keep the steel hot enough. I know its only a 100.00 kit. But was only enough to forge a butter knife. 😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
Gotcha. I have an $80 one coming i plan on testing. Thanks for the info👍
@@OUTDOORS55 not a problem. Love your videos!!!!! Keep em coming
Genuine question:
What would happen if you would have re-heated the first test piece, to proper homogeneous non-magnetic state and then quenched?
or: Why did you make/ use a new fresh blank?
tqvvvvmmm
So,no on canola oil?
What happened to your website? Where can I get one and three micron strop compound?
New content 🙏🍷
Dr. Larrin Thomas has a section about heat treating oils on his website. Apparently, standard vegetable oil - canola oil - doesnt work well on 1084 steel. Apparently, it works great with O-1 steel, though.
Any experience with O-1? Im going to make my first forge tomorrow and don't have Parks 50 yet.
I have a video doing similar tests with canola and other types of oil and canola did work well for me with 1084. Cant tell you why or how though. Which should highlight why its probably not the best idea to use an unknown oil since different people get different results. Id just pick up some parks 50 that way you know for sure.
@@OUTDOORS55 Dr. Thomas showed that canola oil does partially harden 1084, but it never fully quenches to a completely hardened blade, so you never get the full benefit. O-1 steel doesn't have the same issue. But he uses an electronically controlled oven to heat his blades first, which I don't have.
Do you sharpen before hardness?
No, after hardening. Check my last knife making video for how this is done👍
It’s there a reason to keep the backside closed vs drilling clean through?
Heat retention probably.
will this work for 1095?
I have a dumb question (I am a total newb & dont know any better) - after you tested your first blade, found out the hardness varied along the length of the blade, could you have put that same blade back into the fire, heating it properly, etc etc. Would that have worked?
It would jave required an annealing. It can be done just isnt a quick process.
@@OUTDOORS55 Thank you, Sir.
If I remember correctly you used to recommend quenching in vegetable oil, what made you change your mind?
New research by dr larrin Thomas. I plan on a test video myself using canola 🙂
And how would you temper the hardness down again? Cheap electric oven? I've seen it done by just heating up the handle until the blade turns into a straw color, was wondering if it matters for how long you temper your knives
Kitchen oven works 👍
Is the steel in a circular saw blade practical for making a knife with out heat treatment?
No idea...it's mystery steel🙂
@@OUTDOORS55 time for you to take the mystery out, I’m talking about a 10 inch circular saw blade hope to see the answer in a video someday
I've been hearing people suggest using a baffle to help heat the knife evenly. What are your thoughts on this?
Could it work with standard building bricks?
No, you will need insulating fire bricks. You wont get it hot enough with regular bricks.
@@OUTDOORS55 thank you.
Well this video is pretty clearly not a product shill for a piece free gear. Not that you do this but it has been known to happen on The Tube. My point is that I like you video very much because it is honest, even if the honesty is forced on you by the gear. I have given some thought to knife but held off because of the twin black arts, hardening and heat treating. So now a basic handle for our first knife???
Thanks.
I will only show something I truly like. And give my honest opinions on something no matter how I acquire it. You wont ever find a shill on this channel unless I truly like something. I probably give up 50k year by not doing worthless sponsorships. Thanks for the comment 👍
@@OUTDOORS55 And that's why your channel is the best knifemaking channel on youtube -thanks Alex, I hope I speak for all your subscribers when I say we really appreciate your straightforward and 100% honest content in a swamp of 🦬💩 from other channels... 😁👍
Whats the best way to do 1095?
Use 1084....
Seriously though I do not like 1095 even using kiln. And would definitely not use it in a forge. Its way too picky for crude heat treating in my opinion.
@@OUTDOORS55 Do you need to worry about grain structure on stock removal knives?
It depends on what you are referring too. Over heating is a problem but most steel comes ready for heat treating. Unless you are forging or severely overheat the steel during stock removal you should be fine.
100% - stay away from 1095 unless you are set up for it and are willing to invest the time and attention. I love it, but it really does require a great deal of work to get a good HT on it. All the horror stories you've heard are true. People who say they "it's not that bad" either don't work with it a lot (especially across batches or suppliers), or aren't aware of the issues they have in their finished product.
Did you temper x2 or 3 ? Did you heat the Parks up ?
A temper should be done after quenching to bring the hardness down to a usable level. A 400f temper for 2 hours x2 will give good results provided achieved full hardness.🙂
@@OUTDOORS55 sorry I said temper. Did you normalize. And did you heat up the Parks ?
The steel comes in an annealed state so no normalization os necessary.
@@OUTDOORS55 TYVM
👍
Pls forgive my dumb questions because I don't know anything about anything -- I thought after a bad heat treatment you could return the steel to it's pre-heat-treated state ("normalize"?) by heating it and cooling it very slowly, and then you'd be able to try heat treating it again. Is that incorrect?
That's correct. It takes time though to go through those steps so it was easier for me to start over.
Mr. Volcano makes a single burner propane forge for only $80 on Amazon. Stainless steel construction and made in USA might as well get that and spend an extra $40 for a propane tank🤷🏻♀️
Yeah thats a slightly more expensive option if you don't already have the 20lb tank. They go for around $80 around here. I have one on order for testing 🙂👍
@@OUTDOORS55 Awesome! I’m looking forward to the video
Isn't O1 steel a more forgiving steel, same treatment and no fancy quenching oil and readily available. 👍
o1 requires soaking to disolve the carbon. Its not the best choice for forges due to the difficulty of soaking at austenitizing temperature for the required 10-15 minutes.
Put a rag over the knife when you snap it in the vice to catch flying bits.
No dramatic affect in doing that
About the small chamber - nah, the space is basically irrelevant. Even if it would be 2L in volume that would heat up in seconds. The problem is the surface - cause that is where the heat gets lost. And the bigger the volume the bigger the surface that has to be heated up and that takes away the heat.
It seems like the flame should enter the forge from the far end instead of the middle.
So glad you didn’t use 1095 like almost everyone starts out using. I’m surprised you didn’t use canola oil, although it’s not the correct quenchant. But we all know that’s what everyone starts with.🤦♂️
Ill do a video on this in the future 🙂👍
I do wonder what the end result would have been with canola oil instead of Parks 50
I plan on showing that in a future video. I believe Knife steel nerds has a video on it as well.
@@OUTDOORS55 Cool, thank you
circular saw steel: how to treat it ? does it need to be treated ? if not I could grind the knife out of the blade ?
MAPP gas vs TTP?
I've never gotten this to work with 1084 even with 2 burners
Were you using insulating soft brick? Amd using a small burn chamber?
@@OUTDOORS55 yeah I followed the directions from your original video a few years ago
Interesting..the burn chamber size is very important. Too big and youll have trouble. Also how do you know it wasn't working? What steel were you using and what were you quenching with?
@@OUTDOORS55 I was using 1084 the burn chamber was 2 inches in diameter the steel thickness was 1/4 inch I left it in the forge for around 30 min and never even got the steal to glow orange
Yeah I had trouble with thicker steel and larger burn chamber. Id say you dont want to go bigger than 1 1/2" and stick with 1/8" stock.
3:12
Definitely not good for the torch, especially if you have a brass tip 😶 I have a small ball of brass for inlays or something now.. 🤦🤣
Why not just edge quench?
There no real benefits to edge quenching anymore unless you are doing a hamone.
@@OUTDOORS55
Im curious, whats a good place to learn up on that. Not that i dont believe you, i am just really lookin into making knives one day.
Check the description. I left a link for a book by Dr larrin Thomas called Knife engineering. Its a very easy read with lots of pictures and graphs for us folks who like that sorta thing😉 It will explain everything you ever want to know. It's definitely worth the money.
@@OUTDOORS55
Awesome, thanks!
The cheapest way is a small pile of charcoal on my grill
You can do it on a grill or fire pit with forced air. I have a video where I do that as well. Its an even cruder set up though and no way to really see what's happening to the steel in the fire.
@@OUTDOORS55 just got to have an air channel to force a natural draft. Just lay my knives across the charcoal with minimum effort.
i was watching this and had a brain flash and don't know if anyone's tried it before: a video where you experiment with heat treating a bad knife (made of the finest chinese-ium?) to make a good or better one.
just a weird thought through my tired old brain.