@@ExtradaemonYT yeah, I've been on enough creative projects, well and badly managed, to know how constricting and aimless it is to be handed a bunch of disparate elements and be told you can't adapt ANY of it to make it cohesive. Just MASH IT TOGETHER MORE.
Well said. I, on the other hand, can't help but think that all these new sculpts may be nice, but they are more suited for an instagram than for a battle game. Why do I need so much detail on a miniature, which by default I will observe from a height of 70-80cm?
@@colbybastian17me too and 10 times out of 10, the problem wasnt leadership. It was natural-born lemmings like you who balme leadership for your own lack of initiative.
Yes m8 eldar infantry still teh same as when I played 15 yrs ago. And then you look at corvus belli infinity sculpts and they are constantly updating and making things look cooler and cooler.
I think the AoS Designer are going by the Mark Rosewater Design Philosophy of "It's better to have five people rate a thing a 10 and five rate it a 1 than have all ten of them rate it a 7". The 40k team on the other hand seems to be happy with aiming for 7s all around.
2s and 9s is a hard sales pitch to money men who want to have a game with 'broad appeal' because it sounds like the best way to get most customers. When really for passionate hobbyists you want lifelong fans and you don't get them without folk rating it a 9 or 10
That "evil factions that can do good" point really reminds me of some of the more buried Ossiarch Bonereapers lore, where their upholding of the bone tithe leads them to defending mortal cities from factions who would completely destroy them.
I don’t even think it’s debatable at this point. Warhammer 40k has lost all of its soul, it’s become so corporatized and very… cleansed; there is no longer that gritty feel we had in the 90’s and 00’s. There is almost zero ability to customize armies during list building and most of the fluff, art and unit descriptions in codexes have just been recycled over and over for the last several editions. There is no incentive to create unique conversions and no chapter approved or white dwarf army lists to give you rules for a more narrative army to play (chaos Orks, Kroot, etc.), I could go on for days about what we are currently missing in the game that we once had.
This has been a absolute incredible conversion between Vince and Vince. I hope Vince comes back for another one as I simply love hearing you two talk about your feelings towards the state of Warhammer and relate that to other media
Vince (1) I love your excitement for the topic, but I wish you'd stop and listen to your guest and let them finish their thoughts instead of interrupting every time you have a thought.
So much this. Jezus the interruptions are jarring. I tried to skip forwardi n time to see if it got any better, but it does not and I disagree with the delay comment, because there isn't a single second where the interruption is accidental due to awkward silences, but rather due to the wordspew of Vince (1). Quite frankly, VV is too polite to say anything about it, but man the disrespect to this legend. Terrible.
what bugs me about "change" in 40k lore is that it's a illusion. The galaxy got ripped in half, which sounds like this massive schism that would really shake up the status quo and aesthetics and feel of the setting, but it hasn't *really*. AOS has a massively kitchen sink generic setting, but the visual development of the Stormcast line next to the Space Marines is night and day. The 40k universe always promises the concept of change, but never really delivers something in the models or the actual product that sells it enough to stick. Gulliman comes back, but nothing about the space marines changes. The tyranids are apparently swarming the galaxy on all sides right now but we haven't really gotten a tyranid model since the big guy just after leviathan!
Yeah this is why i think AoS does it better. It kind of doesn't matter what happens in 40k, it will always be perma-2 minutes to midnight. Not to say that they don't kind of end up doing the same thing in AoS but it sure feels like things change and evolve a lot more. Case in point, after the 8th ed books (I forget the names,the one where Abaddon got the Macguffin but was driven off the planet and since then nothing really of note has really mattered or changed). In AoS Morathi couped a whole city and the army rules for it changed to reflect that. Sure, you could still play the old rules if you wanted representing guerillas fighting against the new rulers, but it was actual measurable change in the game world.
"AOS has a massively kitchen sink generic setting" This I wholeheartedly disagree with. AoS as a setting is so different from other typical fantasy settings that it makes it downright hard to grasp. The mere fact that AoS as a setting is not one cohesive world, but 8 different planes of existence connected by Realmgates already sets it apart. Then you have the constant, direct involvement of outright gods like Alarielle or Nagash, bad guys and good guys allied together against different sets of bad guys, and the ludicrously over the top visual aesthetic, and you have a fantasy setting so unique it starts to work against itself.
@@bartholen idk, maybe I'm just too deep in the high fantasy genre but none of this really screams unique to me. D&D and MTG have both been capitalizing on the same gonzo fantasy vibe for about 20 years.
@raspberrymilkshake5782 it's hard to look at armies/themes/concepts like the Kharadron Overlords, Flesh Eater Courts, Deepkin, etc, and think "yeah that's generic" I feel as though you didn't really bother to actually look at AoS very closely?
lovely chat, fyi as someone who nearly ended up sculpting for gw, you don't seam to quite understand the design team, the applicants, or the quality control. can guarantee no figure released is a 'training figure' and if you can't already sculpt good minis you're not getting hired. that inquisitor is simply lazy on the part of multiple people.
I assume the inquisitor is less initial laziness from the sculptor, more throttling control from higher ups eventually wearing down the design. Same with the new blood angels, no concept designer or sculptor of the quality gw hires would willingly make something that generic.
@@raspberrymilkshake5782 thing is, that the job will come up and a sculptor will be assigned, they'll go away and make a design but that will then be printed out and viewed by at least the quality control manager if not typically other sculptors on the team. if its not ok, they'll be sent away to make improvements until it passes that stage. so that any mini made is a collaborative effort that had to be 'ok'd' by multiple different people prior to going into production .
The Horus Heresy books and expansion really were the worst thing to happen to the franchise. The primarchs in particular have turned into lore black-hole for the setting that just suck up all the attention and development aware from other factions and characters.
This is so true. The Horus Heresy worked because it was vague and mythological. Nailing down every detail makes it so damn dull and having the primarchs comes back completely misses the point.
Yep, even before that most of the Black Library was marines "bolterporn" but as the Horus Heresy expanded and expanded the Primarchs became characters that people came to like and ask more about (for me outside of Angron's tragedy and Fulgrim's fall they are meh, also Sanguinius is a Gary Stu) So obviously the 40K team decided to advance the narrative (that's good, the eternal 13th crussade got old) and re introduce the Primarchs into the narrative. So now everything has to be Primarch vs Primarch and " fuck you to dare be a xenos fan "
This guy is 100% the standard new 40k fan boy. Has purchased a shit ton of stuff (apparently none of it is painted but he will 'get to it') Vague claims to knowing 'old school' stuff (I read Blood Quest!!) Makes large fluff mistakes on info he could easily look up in 10 or so minutes on any online wiki (clearly confused Knights with Titans, which 100% do have churches on top of the largest of them). And his opinion is basically a synthesis of the top 3 UA-camrs he happens to have listened too on any particular subject. Also he constantly cuts off his guest, and no, I don't think it's merely 'Zoom delay,' it's just him being rude.
Also the 40k crowd cry foul at the slightest change so it doesn't leave room for the designers to play around with. So look forward to your next [Generic Space Marine that can be made into any chapter so nobody gets mad at GW for not making their favourite chapter]
I hate that chapters have become so different. I liked them better when they were basically just different paint schemes with a couple of special characters and bits here and there.
@@Dram1984100%. Do your own conversions and stuff, but if you’re codex compliant you don’t need special units or special rules. You’re differently dressed Ultramarines. It’s fine. I say this as someone with a 20 year old Imperial Fists collection.
1:02:38 the setting was interesting before they started fleshing out 30K. 40K had a deep and mysterious history then, and there was every reason to doubt that the emperor had any powers at all. It was ten thousand years ago. Most of what the imperium knew about itself was probably propaganda. Now it’s established lore that the emperor was twice the size of a human and spoke a magical language before the pyramids were even built.
John Blanche and Ian Miller's work in GW is a big part of what got me into the games I play now. I wouldn't be playing Kingdom Death: Monster without their art and the existence of Warhammer Quest.
I've struggled to stay on top of and into 40k since 9th Ed, it's just so distant from what I loved now, too competitive focused. I've been trying other games entirely and have fallen for Bolt Action, is a much less exciting setting but the game itself is just so much better. The dice tell the story, every unit doesn't have a bespoke special rule and those that do almost always use a form of universal special rule, there's no rerolling, no gotchas other than a Ambush order which your opponent knows about as you have to give a unit that order. The activation system is the best out there and generally the game works and flows super well. As for GW I have been getting more into AoS over time and now have my 2k Seraphon ready to go and I am feeling much better about that system in general over 10th ed 40k. As for D&D I could never get into 5th, I dropped it quick and went back to my true TTRPG love, Call of Cthulhu, I love my horror one-shots and that ruleset can be used in a lot of ways which I enjoy.
Apparently this is because Jervis Johnson was the sole rules designer left that specifically wanted to cater to a more casual, narrative focused audience. Once he left the entire set is now just guys who are hyperfocused on Competitive play. So we went from a design focused around casual play with an option to play competitive to a design focused around competitive play with an option to play casual.
@@luketferI don't doubt it, the old guard of designers went on to design most of the competitors, Rick Priestley designed V1 of Bolt Action and you can tell. Guess there's a reason you don't have designers names printed in the rulebooks now. The game famously known for balance x) Yeah it's silly, I really dislike that everything has to be hyper competitive now. They really want to make the game this layered complex crunchy system when all it needs to be is a laugh, a game to play with friends. It's so strange, because until 8th edition I'd never even heard of a Warhammer Tourney, I was far away from Nottingham to be fair, but it was always a local store and laughs game.
Yeah I think you nailed it with the punk aspect. It's a setting that was created at a very specific time and has long lost its relevance (at least for us). It's a satyre made in the 80s in the UK. Though I think there is still a phase when we're teenager where we discover Warhammer 40K and we're like "damn that's edgy that's so cool". I think that's why it still brings new people
My conspiracy theory for the GW sculpts is they're either making them more palatable for mainstream audiences (i think its pretty valid) OR, and this is fringe and i don't really beleive it, but theyre purposely making these new sculpts bad or not putting the effort into them so that people will pay more attention to AoS and the more specialty games where theyre just sending 10/10 sculpts out every day
This was an incredible episode and you both need to get together again. There wasn't nearly enough talk about AoS in this episode for my tastes (which are insatiable, so you guys have a lot of work to do, in my imo.)
Love the video. Love the two Vinces. Really a clash of worlds. I discovered y'all both independently, and this is like a crazy crossover I never would of thought. Side note, minor point. The really slow fade in to just the inquisitor model could of probably been a bit different. I was watching full screen and I thought my monitor was going out. Might try being a bit less subtle. Not Final Fantasy battle screen, but maybe a picture in picture. Or just do a complete screen shatter FF style and start playing battle music while making a point. Could be fun.
I've gotten into more AoS since the release, and OH MY GOODNESS, the design effort between AoS Prosecutors and 40k Sanguinary Guard are night and day! To the point where i may pick some up to kitbash wings onto the new Sang Guard.
I noticed the similarity between Stormcast flyers and Sangunary Guard too, if jump packs would fit on the back of flying Stormcast you could just glue them on and use the Stormcast with wings, or even just use the Stormcast flyers without it and they would still fit in enough and look appropriate.
V.V. is hitting some core stuff on the 40k critique. I say that as someone who does very much enjoy the overall 40k setting too. There is a lot of cool stuff in there, but yeah he nailed it with the line about there being no rough edge to hang onto and it not managing to say much, especially the modern stuff (and there is good modern stuff too) bring back the roided out judge dread 2000 A.D. mania of the old lore.
A cool way to "tempt" people would be something like using 40k terms, giving a unit extra armor save but making their invul worse, or losing armor but gaining a Feel No Pain, or losing a Feel No Pain but taking 1 less damage from attacks or gaining a bonus to their own attacks... something where you obviously choose the thing that is best for you in the moment and its definetely a good thing because you choose when to apply what but still carries downsides. Giving your opponent fate dice is insane and actively handicapping yourself.
40k’s mini-“safe” design or “lack of direction” or 😫”lack of creativity” or etc… it all blends into Vince’s criticisms of the 40k narrative. 40k sculptors are absolutely not to blame, even those giving the oversight aren’t to blame: Zoom out and look at the “main” faction 40k tells its’ stories through: space marines and loyalist imperium forces. What is THE main trait of all the loyalist factions? Their phobia and forbidding and refusal to change. Any new tech that is created is instantly declared heresy, and removed from existence. So, the main story is devoid of the ability to evolve the main faction. There simply can not be “creative freedom” in those models (beyond designing the tactical rock), because the moment you give that freedom, it is no longer a space marine or loyalist, it’s an entire new faction. A “new” space marine is simply not a space marine. It also bleeds over into the other factions though. Tyranids are supposed to evolve constantly, but narratively they can’t, because the main lens of the setting would be incapable of adapting themselves, and so end the setting. If the tyranid forces evolve a new major threat… the space marines either have to do nothing and narratively lose and end the universe OR adapt, and in effect cease being members of the imperium. The reason 40k models are boring is because they have no choice. GW wrote themselves into a corner and there is no real way to escape that corner without an “End Times/Age of Sigmar” type event. If you give 40k creative freedom, it is no longer 40k because the lore forbids creative freedom…
Honestly mate, that just sounds like cope. The space marines did adapt with primaries and the complaint is currently how boring the models are (the inquisitor just gave a highlight), they’ve neglected the elder for years with only slight updates here and there, the narrative is almost stagnant and the main focus is forever on space marines. Blaming the creative stagnancy on stagnant lore is just massive cope. In AoS, chaos hasn’t done much since the start of the setting and yet the models are beautiful, soulblight hasn’t done much yet the updated models are beautiful, seraphon, slaanesh, idoneth, kharadron all have gorgeous models and haven’t moved the setting much. Lore is no excuse for bad models, especially from a model company.
I don't understand why the world needs to be static for warhammer to exist as a game. The story could change, factions could die out, that wouldnt stop you from just keeping them playable in the game.Models have been removed from AOS and it isnt addressed in universe. By that same token you can keep models in game that no longer exist in universe
I like Vince and I like Vince but I love VVince. The two of you together really just clicked and this was a fun listen but it was also fun to think along with. This one felt like a lightning in a bottle moment.
Really glad I DIDN'T hobby during this episode, sometimes I miss some nuanced points while painting and this video deserved all my attention. Love the content
The fundamental problem with 40K at the moment is the man in charge of the rules team, Robin Cruddace. He's responsible for deciding what gets made, what codices are next, and what the rules are. He's also responsible for some of the worst codices and rules the game has ever had and is, in general, prone to making armies he likes powerful while armies he doesn't enjoy become less so. Since he's been in charge the game has become increasingly unstable, and while 10th ed. is the best edition the game's ever had, the constant patching and rewriting of rules suggests a team flailing blindly in hopes of getting something right. To say nothing of releasing codices where points and rules are invalidated even before the book is out. In contrast, the Age of Sigmar team have a clear sense of vision and direction, an understanding of how to write rules consistently and effectively, and have taken all the best parts of 10th ed. and brought them into the game while ignoring the parts that don't work. Meanwhile the 40K team still insists on holding onto old, tedious mechanics like Strength/Toughness because they're afraid to rustle the proverbial jimmies of even a single 40K oldbeard, and has power-crept guns so hard that they actively needed to eliminate damage overflow from the game entirely to avoid entire units vanishing in clouds of smoke after one turn of shooting.
This episode is really hard to listen to because you keep talking over VV, it's impossible to make out what you two are talking about. Please, for future episodes, be more mindful of eachother, I couldn't watch all theway through.
Watching it back, I just dont understand how you can say that. Yes, there are some moments where I interject - the. The guest continues. At no point do I stop him finishing. At no point is a topic not completed. I'm genuinely a little lost as we appear to give each other so much space e when we had lag delays in the earlier part of the video.
I swear every time AoS gets a new edition the 40k crowd have an existential crisis. When 10th released the AoS crowd were lucky to even get a book let alone a model for a good 2 months
They're literally ruining space Marines which is the most popular thing they sell. They get rid of all the character from the space Marines which made them so much money. With AoS they literally axed an entire faction and a half. I started with beasts of chaos a few months before the announcement was made. The only good games they name are the non mainline games which all get the coolest shit possible. There's a good reason people are in a crisis and it's not just that AoS is getting a bunch of stuff
When it comes to ttrpgs like DnD, Pathfinder, Lancer, and SWADE. They all serve different niches, even between editions like Pathfinder 1e and 2e. DnD5e is just so popular because 1. It's basic so it's easy to pick up, 2. It is easily homebrewed and is very modular so it's very customizable, and 3. It's what brought ttrpgs into the limelight. I do agree with DnD 5e not being the best, but it is the most popular for a reason. I think the amount of people that stick with only DnD is smaller than that 70% you mentioned just because it is easier to just learn the basics of Lancer if you want to try a Mecha in Space ttrpg than it is to fully build one from the foundation of 5e.
Bearded Vince: "...and then we get space skaven or time shifted space skaven" Goateed Vince: "That sounds fun as". Colour me surprised Vince is on board for more skaven. Not that I disagree one bit.
Gulliman and primarchs are bringing that larger than life godlike main characters to 40K, but it's a messy process to change from ww1 trenches to greek myth.
Also don't miss the always cooler Kill Team assignments. Those Vespids are updating the old sculpts.... but they are just getting high fives, no criticism.
The people writing and directing 40k don't have a clue in what they're doing. I fear it's a bit like Star Wars, who is also going through an identity crisis and has nothing to do with the OG writers. Sure we have a few doing novels here and there, but they're more or less told what to do. I don't think anyone has decided on a clear direction, which is partly to do with the fact 40k encompasses so much. What direction they have settled on seems lacklustre. Like, I really didn't like reading about the final fight with Horus, and bringing back all the primarchs in some way. If Ferrus and Sangy come back, what's the fucking point???? Yes, money. But besides that????????????
I think it really can’t be overstated just how much of an impact COVID had on 40k in particular. GW decided that they were basically going to modernize huge parts of the 40k line (Marines, Orks, Nids) and then got hit with a pandemic that slowed everything down to crawl. I wouldn’t be surprised if the stuff being released now is coming out a year to 18 months later than GW originally planned. Also I think Slaanesh players are looking at the temptation dice system wrong. You’re not tempting your opponent into taking the dice. Slaanesh is tempting YOU into giving your opponent the choice in the first place. You said it yourself VinceyV- the temptations are worse for those who accept them😜
@@mikefish1124 Idk if I'd go that far, since 40k is so expansive and has a LOT of creativity with the galaxy's interaction with the Warp. I say that when I like AoS way more than 40k.
@mikefish1124 This is absolutely not true. AoS is gradually finding its footing but to compare it to the genre defining world of 40K is just mental. AoS still borrows it's most interesting aspects from Warhammer Fantasy for goodness sake lol
@winter6507 1) AoS' most interesting aspects are not from Fantasy, though some are evolved from it like Morathi becoming a God. That was never possible in Fantasy. 2) Barring Space Marines, 40k didn't really make any genre-defining things. Almost all of it was stolen by Dune and WHFB, and they defined it more despite the latter not being as influential.
Yes. It lost it with 4th edition. 8th edition restored it to a playable game, but didn't buy back its soul. It now baffles me why anyone still plays this terrible game when so many better options exist.
I think a lot of folks get frustrated by the lack of progression in 40k because they very much want 40k to be something it isn't--40k is a setting, not a story or a coherent narrative. What complicates things is that it's a setting derived for the sole purpose of selling models. Imo the actual stories that can happen within the 40k setting are the ones you tell with your friends while you push minis around.
Long answer short, yes. Yes it has. Primarchs should have never returned. The lore is less about the grimdark life of the 40K universe and more just a comic book at this point. Space marines and the forces of good vs everything else.
I think it would be hard for me to disagree more with some of these takes. No offense meant, but I do find that content creators are often so entrenched in a subculture or franchise that they are miles away from the regular Joe that has so many less hours to spend on some of these hobbies. And that's also true, to a fairly strong point, to the very vocal parts of the community that occupy a lot of the online space. In and of itself, looking deeper into that divide would be an interesting deep dive.
I feel like 40k has a weird mix of incredibly draconian oversight over the assets of their sculpts, and also absolutely no actual creative direction.
More often that not, the latter is a natural result of the former.
@@ExtradaemonYT yeah, I've been on enough creative projects, well and badly managed, to know how constricting and aimless it is to be handed a bunch of disparate elements and be told you can't adapt ANY of it to make it cohesive. Just MASH IT TOGETHER MORE.
Well said. I, on the other hand, can't help but think that all these new sculpts may be nice, but they are more suited for an instagram than for a battle game. Why do I need so much detail on a miniature, which by default I will observe from a height of 70-80cm?
@@colbybastian17me too and 10 times out of 10, the problem wasnt leadership. It was natural-born lemmings like you who balme leadership for your own lack of initiative.
Yes m8 eldar infantry still teh same as when I played 15 yrs ago. And then you look at corvus belli infinity sculpts and they are constantly updating and making things look cooler and cooler.
The Skaven Jezzail is based off the Jezzail/Jezail a real long musket/rifle used in continental Asia in the past.
the admech also have a jezrail for the new longboi, seems like someone in the design team had a new obsession
VinceVenturella is SUCH a legend xd. but please ik others have said it already, but u need to stop interrupting
I think the AoS Designer are going by the Mark Rosewater Design Philosophy of "It's better to have five people rate a thing a 10 and five rate it a 1 than have all ten of them rate it a 7". The 40k team on the other hand seems to be happy with aiming for 7s all around.
And by aiming for 7's they've ended up making a lot of 5's
2s and 9s is a hard sales pitch to money men who want to have a game with 'broad appeal' because it sounds like the best way to get most customers.
When really for passionate hobbyists you want lifelong fans and you don't get them without folk rating it a 9 or 10
or 2's in the case of blood angel releases.
This wasn't so much a discussion as it was the host talking over the guest and not letting him finish a point.
That "evil factions that can do good" point really reminds me of some of the more buried Ossiarch Bonereapers lore, where their upholding of the bone tithe leads them to defending mortal cities from factions who would completely destroy them.
I don’t even think it’s debatable at this point. Warhammer 40k has lost all of its soul, it’s become so corporatized and very… cleansed; there is no longer that gritty feel we had in the 90’s and 00’s. There is almost zero ability to customize armies during list building and most of the fluff, art and unit descriptions in codexes have just been recycled over and over for the last several editions. There is no incentive to create unique conversions and no chapter approved or white dwarf army lists to give you rules for a more narrative army to play (chaos Orks, Kroot, etc.), I could go on for days about what we are currently missing in the game that we once had.
This has been a absolute incredible conversion between Vince and Vince. I hope Vince comes back for another one as I simply love hearing you two talk about your feelings towards the state of Warhammer and relate that to other media
tau hate def broke gw
because that was trying to be different and space marine fans still hate them
Hell yah!!! I love seeing some hot Vince on Vince action.
It's... Vinception....
I'll see myself out
Dude...every time a thought pops into your mind, you don't have to interrupt the guest.
true
This is what happens when the interviewer and interviewee get enthusiastically into geek mode and talk over each other. I took it as a good thing
Vince (1) I love your excitement for the topic, but I wish you'd stop and listen to your guest and let them finish their thoughts instead of interrupting every time you have a thought.
I agree with you but I think part of the issue is the delay caused by zoom. Vince (1) doesn’t realise Vince (2) has started to talk.
So much this. Jezus the interruptions are jarring. I tried to skip forwardi n time to see if it got any better, but it does not and I disagree with the delay comment, because there isn't a single second where the interruption is accidental due to awkward silences, but rather due to the wordspew of Vince (1). Quite frankly, VV is too polite to say anything about it, but man the disrespect to this legend. Terrible.
I had to stop midway through for this exact reason - great insights on both sides, I just couldn't make a lot of them out.
Spot on!
Agreement
Two Vinces is my favorite Spin Doctors Song
🎶 This one ... wants to paint some Skaaaven, just go ahead now 🎶
what bugs me about "change" in 40k lore is that it's a illusion. The galaxy got ripped in half, which sounds like this massive schism that would really shake up the status quo and aesthetics and feel of the setting, but it hasn't *really*. AOS has a massively kitchen sink generic setting, but the visual development of the Stormcast line next to the Space Marines is night and day. The 40k universe always promises the concept of change, but never really delivers something in the models or the actual product that sells it enough to stick. Gulliman comes back, but nothing about the space marines changes.
The tyranids are apparently swarming the galaxy on all sides right now but we haven't really gotten a tyranid model since the big guy just after leviathan!
Yeah this is why i think AoS does it better. It kind of doesn't matter what happens in 40k, it will always be perma-2 minutes to midnight. Not to say that they don't kind of end up doing the same thing in AoS but it sure feels like things change and evolve a lot more. Case in point, after the 8th ed books (I forget the names,the one where Abaddon got the Macguffin but was driven off the planet and since then nothing really of note has really mattered or changed). In AoS Morathi couped a whole city and the army rules for it changed to reflect that. Sure, you could still play the old rules if you wanted representing guerillas fighting against the new rulers, but it was actual measurable change in the game world.
B..b...but the Lion's back now! There'll surely be change now...........
"AOS has a massively kitchen sink generic setting"
This I wholeheartedly disagree with. AoS as a setting is so different from other typical fantasy settings that it makes it downright hard to grasp. The mere fact that AoS as a setting is not one cohesive world, but 8 different planes of existence connected by Realmgates already sets it apart. Then you have the constant, direct involvement of outright gods like Alarielle or Nagash, bad guys and good guys allied together against different sets of bad guys, and the ludicrously over the top visual aesthetic, and you have a fantasy setting so unique it starts to work against itself.
@@bartholen idk, maybe I'm just too deep in the high fantasy genre but none of this really screams unique to me. D&D and MTG have both been capitalizing on the same gonzo fantasy vibe for about 20 years.
@raspberrymilkshake5782 it's hard to look at armies/themes/concepts like the Kharadron Overlords, Flesh Eater Courts, Deepkin, etc, and think "yeah that's generic"
I feel as though you didn't really bother to actually look at AoS very closely?
Twin-Linked Vinces 🎉
lovely chat, fyi as someone who nearly ended up sculpting for gw, you don't seam to quite understand the design team, the applicants, or the quality control. can guarantee no figure released is a 'training figure' and if you can't already sculpt good minis you're not getting hired. that inquisitor is simply lazy on the part of multiple people.
I assume the inquisitor is less initial laziness from the sculptor, more throttling control from higher ups eventually wearing down the design. Same with the new blood angels, no concept designer or sculptor of the quality gw hires would willingly make something that generic.
@@raspberrymilkshake5782 thing is, that the job will come up and a sculptor will be assigned, they'll go away and make a design but that will then be printed out and viewed by at least the quality control manager if not typically other sculptors on the team. if its not ok, they'll be sent away to make improvements until it passes that stage. so that any mini made is a collaborative effort that had to be 'ok'd' by multiple different people prior to going into production .
The Horus Heresy books and expansion really were the worst thing to happen to the franchise. The primarchs in particular have turned into lore black-hole for the setting that just suck up all the attention and development aware from other factions and characters.
This is so true. The Horus Heresy worked because it was vague and mythological. Nailing down every detail makes it so damn dull and having the primarchs comes back completely misses the point.
Now it’s just a series of bad dads and large adult sons
Yep, even before that most of the Black Library was marines "bolterporn" but as the Horus Heresy expanded and expanded the Primarchs became characters that people came to like and ask more about (for me outside of Angron's tragedy and Fulgrim's fall they are meh, also Sanguinius is a Gary Stu)
So obviously the 40K team decided to advance the narrative (that's good, the eternal 13th crussade got old) and re introduce the Primarchs into the narrative.
So now everything has to be Primarch vs Primarch and " fuck you to dare be a xenos fan "
Thank you! I’d expand and say novels in general have been a drag on the game.
Not bad but try not to talk over your guest. Not sure if that's why Venturella seems annoyed but it probably didn't help.
Fr
This guy is 100% the standard new 40k fan boy.
Has purchased a shit ton of stuff (apparently none of it is painted but he will 'get to it')
Vague claims to knowing 'old school' stuff (I read Blood Quest!!)
Makes large fluff mistakes on info he could easily look up in 10 or so minutes on any online wiki (clearly confused Knights with Titans, which 100% do have churches on top of the largest of them).
And his opinion is basically a synthesis of the top 3 UA-camrs he happens to have listened too on any particular subject.
Also he constantly cuts off his guest, and no, I don't think it's merely 'Zoom delay,' it's just him being rude.
Also the 40k crowd cry foul at the slightest change so it doesn't leave room for the designers to play around with. So look forward to your next [Generic Space Marine that can be made into any chapter so nobody gets mad at GW for not making their favourite chapter]
I hate that chapters have become so different. I liked them better when they were basically just different paint schemes with a couple of special characters and bits here and there.
@@Dram1984100%. Do your own conversions and stuff, but if you’re codex compliant you don’t need special units or special rules. You’re differently dressed Ultramarines. It’s fine. I say this as someone with a 20 year old Imperial Fists collection.
I’ve always been of the opinion that gw quite literally should not listen to players on anything except to gauge how exploitative their pricing is. 😊
New Vince brought a refreshing perspective! I would have loved to hear him talk more about where 40k falls short as a storytelling setting.
Same…. But you just can’t stop English Vince interrupting all the time. Gah he’s infuriating! Just let other people talk for once.
Nice conversation but I do really wish that PK wouldn't talk over vince so much when he tries to explain his point. Lol
Jezzail is an old proto-musket type gun, I believe. I think it was an evolution of the arquabus and used in the middle east area
1:02:38 the setting was interesting before they started fleshing out 30K. 40K had a deep and mysterious history then, and there was every reason to doubt that the emperor had any powers at all. It was ten thousand years ago. Most of what the imperium knew about itself was probably propaganda. Now it’s established lore that the emperor was twice the size of a human and spoke a magical language before the pyramids were even built.
John Blanche and Ian Miller's work in GW is a big part of what got me into the games I play now. I wouldn't be playing Kingdom Death: Monster without their art and the existence of Warhammer Quest.
KDM keeps me going, real talk. I solo play it compulsively.
When you do an interview allow the guest to speak! Otherwise it's just a soapbox for you.
44:54 Vince meant to say Space Station Zero, here. the sci fi game, instead of Majestic 13 twice.
I've struggled to stay on top of and into 40k since 9th Ed, it's just so distant from what I loved now, too competitive focused. I've been trying other games entirely and have fallen for Bolt Action, is a much less exciting setting but the game itself is just so much better. The dice tell the story, every unit doesn't have a bespoke special rule and those that do almost always use a form of universal special rule, there's no rerolling, no gotchas other than a Ambush order which your opponent knows about as you have to give a unit that order. The activation system is the best out there and generally the game works and flows super well. As for GW I have been getting more into AoS over time and now have my 2k Seraphon ready to go and I am feeling much better about that system in general over 10th ed 40k.
As for D&D I could never get into 5th, I dropped it quick and went back to my true TTRPG love, Call of Cthulhu, I love my horror one-shots and that ruleset can be used in a lot of ways which I enjoy.
Apparently this is because Jervis Johnson was the sole rules designer left that specifically wanted to cater to a more casual, narrative focused audience. Once he left the entire set is now just guys who are hyperfocused on Competitive play. So we went from a design focused around casual play with an option to play competitive to a design focused around competitive play with an option to play casual.
@@luketferI don't doubt it, the old guard of designers went on to design most of the competitors, Rick Priestley designed V1 of Bolt Action and you can tell.
Guess there's a reason you don't have designers names printed in the rulebooks now.
The game famously known for balance x) Yeah it's silly, I really dislike that everything has to be hyper competitive now. They really want to make the game this layered complex crunchy system when all it needs to be is a laugh, a game to play with friends. It's so strange, because until 8th edition I'd never even heard of a Warhammer Tourney, I was far away from Nottingham to be fair, but it was always a local store and laughs game.
Wrestling n contrast paint = monster in my pocket lol 😅what it now is if any1 remembers the toy line
I need vaping Vince as a reaction gif.
😂😂😂 edit: if that’s an regular vape I’ll be very disappointed!
Yeah I think you nailed it with the punk aspect. It's a setting that was created at a very specific time and has long lost its relevance (at least for us). It's a satyre made in the 80s in the UK. Though I think there is still a phase when we're teenager where we discover Warhammer 40K and we're like "damn that's edgy that's so cool". I think that's why it still brings new people
My conspiracy theory for the GW sculpts is they're either making them more palatable for mainstream audiences (i think its pretty valid) OR, and this is fringe and i don't really beleive it, but theyre purposely making these new sculpts bad or not putting the effort into them so that people will pay more attention to AoS and the more specialty games where theyre just sending 10/10 sculpts out every day
This was an incredible episode and you both need to get together again. There wasn't nearly enough talk about AoS in this episode for my tastes (which are insatiable, so you guys have a lot of work to do, in my imo.)
I look forward to these every time. Made my day
Always good to see Vince going on other shows. Came here from Warhammer Weekly. Keep it up Vinces.
Finally getting back to this episode! So stoked to see Vincey V on this podcast!
Yeeeessss! Hyped for this episode as soon as I heard VincyV was going to be on the show
Love the video. Love the two Vinces. Really a clash of worlds. I discovered y'all both independently, and this is like a crazy crossover I never would of thought.
Side note, minor point. The really slow fade in to just the inquisitor model could of probably been a bit different. I was watching full screen and I thought my monitor was going out.
Might try being a bit less subtle. Not Final Fantasy battle screen, but maybe a picture in picture.
Or just do a complete screen shatter FF style and start playing battle music while making a point. Could be fun.
Jezzail is actually a historical firearm from South Asia & Middle East. Nothing AoS-y about it.
I've gotten into more AoS since the release, and OH MY GOODNESS, the design effort between AoS Prosecutors and 40k Sanguinary Guard are night and day! To the point where i may pick some up to kitbash wings onto the new Sang Guard.
How does AoS play compared to 40K?
I noticed the similarity between Stormcast flyers and Sangunary Guard too, if jump packs would fit on the back of flying Stormcast you could just glue them on and use the Stormcast with wings, or even just use the Stormcast flyers without it and they would still fit in enough and look appropriate.
V.V. is hitting some core stuff on the 40k critique. I say that as someone who does very much enjoy the overall 40k setting too. There is a lot of cool stuff in there, but yeah he nailed it with the line about there being no rough edge to hang onto and it not managing to say much, especially the modern stuff (and there is good modern stuff too) bring back the roided out judge dread 2000 A.D. mania of the old lore.
Good thing there's a third option, the old world. Come play, there's a better way.
A cool way to "tempt" people would be something like using 40k terms, giving a unit extra armor save but making their invul worse, or losing armor but gaining a Feel No Pain, or losing a Feel No Pain but taking 1 less damage from attacks or gaining a bonus to their own attacks... something where you obviously choose the thing that is best for you in the moment and its definetely a good thing because you choose when to apply what but still carries downsides. Giving your opponent fate dice is insane and actively handicapping yourself.
I think GW wants to Squat 40k and/or turn it into Generic Science Fiction Property 41,000 to get a "wider audience".
That's been a long time coming.
40k’s mini-“safe” design or “lack of direction” or 😫”lack of creativity” or etc… it all blends into Vince’s criticisms of the 40k narrative. 40k sculptors are absolutely not to blame, even those giving the oversight aren’t to blame:
Zoom out and look at the “main” faction 40k tells its’ stories through: space marines and loyalist imperium forces.
What is THE main trait of all the loyalist factions? Their phobia and forbidding and refusal to change. Any new tech that is created is instantly declared heresy, and removed from existence.
So, the main story is devoid of the ability to evolve the main faction. There simply can not be “creative freedom” in those models (beyond designing the tactical rock), because the moment you give that freedom, it is no longer a space marine or loyalist, it’s an entire new faction. A “new” space marine is simply not a space marine.
It also bleeds over into the other factions though. Tyranids are supposed to evolve constantly, but narratively they can’t, because the main lens of the setting would be incapable of adapting themselves, and so end the setting. If the tyranid forces evolve a new major threat… the space marines either have to do nothing and narratively lose and end the universe OR adapt, and in effect cease being members of the imperium.
The reason 40k models are boring is because they have no choice. GW wrote themselves into a corner and there is no real way to escape that corner without an “End Times/Age of Sigmar” type event. If you give 40k creative freedom, it is no longer 40k because the lore forbids creative freedom…
Honestly mate, that just sounds like cope. The space marines did adapt with primaries and the complaint is currently how boring the models are (the inquisitor just gave a highlight), they’ve neglected the elder for years with only slight updates here and there, the narrative is almost stagnant and the main focus is forever on space marines. Blaming the creative stagnancy on stagnant lore is just massive cope.
In AoS, chaos hasn’t done much since the start of the setting and yet the models are beautiful, soulblight hasn’t done much yet the updated models are beautiful, seraphon, slaanesh, idoneth, kharadron all have gorgeous models and haven’t moved the setting much. Lore is no excuse for bad models, especially from a model company.
There's no soul in modern 40k because there's no Grimdark.
I don't understand why the world needs to be static for warhammer to exist as a game. The story could change, factions could die out, that wouldnt stop you from just keeping them playable in the game.Models have been removed from AOS and it isnt addressed in universe. By that same token you can keep models in game that no longer exist in universe
I like Vince and I like Vince but I love VVince. The two of you together really just clicked and this was a fun listen but it was also fun to think along with. This one felt like a lightning in a bottle moment.
Great video - although I'm not even finished yet! Both of you have great chemistry and vinturella's insights are great as always.
This discussion feels like one Vince is trying to convince the other Vince that he's wrong.
AOS has the incredible models that I want to paint.
Really glad I DIDN'T hobby during this episode, sometimes I miss some nuanced points while painting and this video deserved all my attention. Love the content
Glad you enjoyed it!
Please keep up the guest appearances! Love listening to these conversations! Also bring back #ChudWatch lol
NightHaunt are just being played by people who had the other half of there AOS 2 box retired !
The fundamental problem with 40K at the moment is the man in charge of the rules team, Robin Cruddace. He's responsible for deciding what gets made, what codices are next, and what the rules are. He's also responsible for some of the worst codices and rules the game has ever had and is, in general, prone to making armies he likes powerful while armies he doesn't enjoy become less so. Since he's been in charge the game has become increasingly unstable, and while 10th ed. is the best edition the game's ever had, the constant patching and rewriting of rules suggests a team flailing blindly in hopes of getting something right. To say nothing of releasing codices where points and rules are invalidated even before the book is out.
In contrast, the Age of Sigmar team have a clear sense of vision and direction, an understanding of how to write rules consistently and effectively, and have taken all the best parts of 10th ed. and brought them into the game while ignoring the parts that don't work. Meanwhile the 40K team still insists on holding onto old, tedious mechanics like Strength/Toughness because they're afraid to rustle the proverbial jimmies of even a single 40K oldbeard, and has power-crept guns so hard that they actively needed to eliminate damage overflow from the game entirely to avoid entire units vanishing in clouds of smoke after one turn of shooting.
This episode is really hard to listen to because you keep talking over VV, it's impossible to make out what you two are talking about. Please, for future episodes, be more mindful of eachother, I couldn't watch all theway through.
Watching it back, I just dont understand how you can say that. Yes, there are some moments where I interject - the. The guest continues. At no point do I stop him finishing. At no point is a topic not completed. I'm genuinely a little lost as we appear to give each other so much space e when we had lag delays in the earlier part of the video.
@@pkswarroom There's periods of three-five seconds where you're both just talking at once, it's unlistenable.
@@pkswarroom I don't really know how you can think that listening to it back, you're jumping on him and talking over him nearly every time he speaks.
I swear every time AoS gets a new edition the 40k crowd have an existential crisis. When 10th released the AoS crowd were lucky to even get a book let alone a model for a good 2 months
They're literally ruining space Marines which is the most popular thing they sell. They get rid of all the character from the space Marines which made them so much money. With AoS they literally axed an entire faction and a half. I started with beasts of chaos a few months before the announcement was made. The only good games they name are the non mainline games which all get the coolest shit possible. There's a good reason people are in a crisis and it's not just that AoS is getting a bunch of stuff
When it comes to ttrpgs like DnD, Pathfinder, Lancer, and SWADE. They all serve different niches, even between editions like Pathfinder 1e and 2e. DnD5e is just so popular because 1. It's basic so it's easy to pick up, 2. It is easily homebrewed and is very modular so it's very customizable, and 3. It's what brought ttrpgs into the limelight. I do agree with DnD 5e not being the best, but it is the most popular for a reason. I think the amount of people that stick with only DnD is smaller than that 70% you mentioned just because it is easier to just learn the basics of Lancer if you want to try a Mecha in Space ttrpg than it is to fully build one from the foundation of 5e.
Bearded Vince: "...and then we get space skaven or time shifted space skaven" Goateed Vince: "That sounds fun as". Colour me surprised Vince is on board for more skaven. Not that I disagree one bit.
Gulliman and primarchs are bringing that larger than life godlike main characters to 40K, but it's a messy process to change from ww1 trenches to greek myth.
I hope Vince comes back, this is his channel after all
yall need to take turns talking next time because the delay is just making you all talk over eachother constantly
weird definition of the word "constantly", but ok. :P
@@pkswarroom Is noticeable frequency better?
Feel like pj totally missed vinces point straight away and immediately starts trying to defend 40k 😂 but abbaddon blew up cadia10 years ago!
I wish 40k the game resembled the universe as it's shown in Dan Abnett's books, specifically the Inquisitor series...
Loosing Karamazov feels bad
Also don't miss the always cooler Kill Team assignments. Those Vespids are updating the old sculpts.... but they are just getting high fives, no criticism.
I'm angrily slapping my keyboard. I can't believe this.
The people writing and directing 40k don't have a clue in what they're doing. I fear it's a bit like Star Wars, who is also going through an identity crisis and has nothing to do with the OG writers. Sure we have a few doing novels here and there, but they're more or less told what to do. I don't think anyone has decided on a clear direction, which is partly to do with the fact 40k encompasses so much. What direction they have settled on seems lacklustre. Like, I really didn't like reading about the final fight with Horus, and bringing back all the primarchs in some way. If Ferrus and Sangy come back, what's the fucking point???? Yes, money. But besides that????????????
Brit Vince you interrupt way too much...have trouble with guests you say
I think it really can’t be overstated just how much of an impact COVID had on 40k in particular. GW decided that they were basically going to modernize huge parts of the 40k line (Marines, Orks, Nids) and then got hit with a pandemic that slowed everything down to crawl. I wouldn’t be surprised if the stuff being released now is coming out a year to 18 months later than GW originally planned.
Also I think Slaanesh players are looking at the temptation dice system wrong. You’re not tempting your opponent into taking the dice. Slaanesh is tempting YOU into giving your opponent the choice in the first place. You said it yourself VinceyV- the temptations are worse for those who accept them😜
Vince is the good Vince.
Are you going to be uploading to Spotify anytime soon or has that ship sailed? Love the content!
The old adage is true. AoS has the better models, but 40k has the better setting. 40k being the cashcow of GW has lead to exterme creative stagnation.
AoS is absolutely a better setting than 40k. By like...almost every metric you can think of
@@mikefish1124 Idk if I'd go that far, since 40k is so expansive and has a LOT of creativity with the galaxy's interaction with the Warp. I say that when I like AoS way more than 40k.
@mikefish1124 This is absolutely not true. AoS is gradually finding its footing but to compare it to the genre defining world of 40K is just mental. AoS still borrows it's most interesting aspects from Warhammer Fantasy for goodness sake lol
@winter6507 1) AoS' most interesting aspects are not from Fantasy, though some are evolved from it like Morathi becoming a God. That was never possible in Fantasy.
2) Barring Space Marines, 40k didn't really make any genre-defining things. Almost all of it was stolen by Dune and WHFB, and they defined it more despite the latter not being as influential.
My main armies for Age of Sigmar and 40K are Hallowed Knights and Dark Angels respectively.
Easy! Vince is the good Vince and Vince is the bad Vince. It's obvious.
Yeah, model wise, if you're a hobbiest first... Sigmar calls.
The idea for vashtor space skaven could work bc vashtor realistically could make the concession because the rats love the warp stone tech
Steel Tread by Andy Clark. Good tank novel, decent look at relations between Cadians and non-Cadians.
Yes. It lost it with 4th edition. 8th edition restored it to a playable game, but didn't buy back its soul. It now baffles me why anyone still plays this terrible game when so many better options exist.
Most people play casually, and that's usually a game a month or even one game quarterly. They want to collect the miniatures.
If Vince is vaping a “normal” vape in this pod I’m going to be very disappointed! Good chat gentlemen
I think a lot of folks get frustrated by the lack of progression in 40k because they very much want 40k to be something it isn't--40k is a setting, not a story or a coherent narrative. What complicates things is that it's a setting derived for the sole purpose of selling models.
Imo the actual stories that can happen within the 40k setting are the ones you tell with your friends while you push minis around.
Superstar guest!
It did. about 25 years ago
When you say Tolkien, do you mean LOTR or Silmarillion stuff? Because First Age is very much mythology/gods on earth, etc
Let the guest finish their thought my friend. You can add instead of interject.
Long answer short, yes. Yes it has. Primarchs should have never returned. The lore is less about the grimdark life of the 40K universe and more just a comic book at this point. Space marines and the forces of good vs everything else.
Just let slaanesh counter charge once per turn for free
40k lore help with this problem.
I.l felt obligate to hit the like button and now I'm covered in bees
Cicatrix Maledictum.
I don't hate the new Angels, but I'm not going to defend the changes. Deathwatch on the other had was done dirty.
Yes, it did.
57:00 Man is too right.
damn...tell us how you really feel
Yes... 1000%
vince venturela paint detective
You're both the bad Vince.
probably time to play a different game
Please record at least eight hours next time. :D
I think it would be hard for me to disagree more with some of these takes. No offense meant, but I do find that content creators are often so entrenched in a subculture or franchise that they are miles away from the regular Joe that has so many less hours to spend on some of these hobbies. And that's also true, to a fairly strong point, to the very vocal parts of the community that occupy a lot of the online space. In and of itself, looking deeper into that divide would be an interesting deep dive.