CALLER Defends Rationality of Faith Because of it's "Benefits" | Matt Dillahunty & Paulogia
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
- Original Episode Here: www.youtube.co...
In this episode, caller Dylan argues that faith is rational, even if the beliefs are untrue, because it provides benefits like structure, guidance, community, and love. Hosts Matt Dillahunty and Paulogia challenge him on this view and press him to justify his confidence that Christianity is true. The conversation grows heated when examining the reliability of the Gospels, especially the words attributed to Jesus. Matt points out the contradiction in claiming God ensured the accurate preservation of Jesus' teachings, yet failed to use reliable methods to do so. Dylan ultimately suggests that hardened skeptics like Matt would dismiss even undeniable evidence if God provided it - a claim Matt calls out as a gross rationalization to avoid the lack of good evidence.
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Reliability of the gospels? Is this guy serious? Matt, as usual, shredded the caller! I love this channel 😂
"Christianity makes me happy: therefore it's real and true." There, saved you an hour.
Like Banksy says, “There’s always hope.” Ha. Maybe the next caller?
@@stephenweir9768 and what’s the problem?
@@RicardoMartinez-oy9dg Lord of the rings makes me happier than christianity, does than mean elves, dwarves etc. are real?
That does not make Christianity true though, I can draw a picture of a dog on a piece of paper and say the same thing but that does not make it real or true cuz reasonably you know you made it up.
@@RicardoMartinez-oy9dg The truth value of the proposition has nothing to do if it makes it silly uneducated people happy.
This is brilliant. Matt drove the conversation like a chess game. After half a dozen moves, checkmate was apparent and inevitable, but the caller instead moved from trap to trap, more and more entangled in his own rope.
It's the same game with the same moves every time.
They never seem to get further than fool's mate because they only talk to people who declared 1.f3 an immediate win.
Please remember that chess is already a metaphor of war, and that using the metaphor of chess places Matt as a very stern teacher who's job it is to help this kid get better at chess. It's important to remember these people are often on the same path as we all took.
A pragmatic theory of truth
Dylan is a perfect example of Seth's talk "Religion Made Me Talk Like An Idiot."
Yes indeed and Literally 1 OF a Million.
"That's a good question" is never followed by a good answer.. 🙄
"What I would say is ..."
When I was 5 or 6 years old, my parents gave me books about Aesop’s fables, Mother Goose stories, Fairy tales, etc., and almost all of those stories had talking animals. I asked my Dad if animals can really talk, and he told me that it was make-believe (which I later labeled Suspended disbelief). I put those books on my make-believe shelf, along with Mickey Mouse, Peter Rabbit, and Winnie the Pooh. One day my well-meaning but deluded Presbyterian grandmother gave me a book of Bible stories for children. In the very first story, I found a talking snake. That book went straight to the make-believe shelf, where it has remained for over 65 years. (Later edit: I acknowledge that there is one species of animal that can talk. Ours.) (And some birds.)
Love it.
this all sounds familiar, I'm a never believer as far back as I can remember , I had to wait out in the school hall each morning in elementary school as my class said the Lord's Prayer because I refused to do so and booted out
of Sunday school because I didn't believe in Jesus . I just never believed in such a silly story as the bible .
There have been some other animals who could talk with external help.
The gorilla Coco could speak with the help of hand signs.
I have seen both dogs and cats that could make some meaning with the help of pre programed buttons, on youtube, but that can of course be edited.
Damn, Dylan sounds exactly like me when i was 19. Thankfully, conversations like this do help people understand that the reasons they believe in gods aren't reasonable.
Is this true? I never believed these things so I cannot really relate. To me 95% of the callers including this one sound like trolls.
@joerdim yeah, it sounds really incoherent and illogical now. But it's all very convincing if you already believe, and you have the faith to fall back on.
One of the things that Dylan said a bunch of times that I believed was if you look at the whole case (historical, biblical, personal experience, little bit of bad science), it makes a compelling case. This obviously falls apart if you aren't already convinced by faith. But in my life, I was very convinced that all that stuff really confirmed my beliefs.
But now that I'm living without faith, it's so hard to miss how illogical it all is.
@@joerdimwhen you are indoctrinated and stuck in an environment where your beliefs are never challenged and are only affirmed, this is the result. The crazy thing is, there are people in the chain of command with the nuclear codes with this mindset.
@@anthonycraig274 I sighed so sadly & hard after reading that comment, I passed out and had a vision that God was real, called me to him, so I punched him in the nuts and a mask fell off and it was Jordan Peterson underneath. Do you think I could sell that as a new gospel?
Masterclass by Matt and Paulogia, one of my fav calls I’ve referenced back to multiple times.
The Line needs to make a "best of" compilation with all the best versions of debunking certain arguments
I want this guy on my dodgeball team: 'Dodge, dive, duck, dip and dodge!'
nice reference
More like, get hit in the face repeatedly while trying to dodge.
This is the Jordan Peterson line of logic on Truth. something is true if it benefita humanity. Which is why he thinks christianity is ”true”. Its BS logic.
Except it's not logic. I agree it's b.s.😊
Jorban Peberson.
He’s incredibly knowledgeable on all things with regard to psychology, his old man politics don’t negate the very real scientific prestige. I think he obviously knows there’s not a god, but using a philosophical lens to give scripture some value, and there obviously is value, just like any other story. I’m super liberal, but in these leftist spaces, nobody seems to why we hate him so much, just meaningless ingroup dogma.
@@bgeery way to do the exact same thing I was talking about😂😂😂leftist pick-me’s are the worst. Learn to think for yourself, babe.
@@johnd1047 We do not like him because he pushes harmful rightwing views and promotes not challenging the status quo. He is moreover made annoying, if not insufferable, by his grandiose words and meandering thought process. Whenever someone calls in to say "atheists are actually religious" or "religion is good because western society is religious" they are just regurgitating bad petersonian memes and we'd be better off without his influence.
This is Matt at his best here man. Paul adding the cherry on top. They destroyed that caller. Brilliant.
'It is rational to believe that Jesus will raise her from the dead' is the defence of a Christian group group in Australia who refused to give 8-year-old Elizabeth Struhs her insulin (Guardian 13.07.24)
This is only one case and it only made the world news because it happened in modern secular country. This sort of murder is very common in religious countries and is overlooked by police and government.
That was disgusting they went with prayer healing worked like always, she is dead.
Fortunately, the whole groups are being prosecuted I hope to see some long sentences.
Aussie agrees. That was disgusting. 🇦🇺
I really love how the hosts just calmly carried the call out of the faith is rational position the caller initially held. Very amusing to see the goal posts just inched back with every sentence within the first 5-10mins of the call. Could have ended there, but at least it gave us another 50minutes of content when he started tap dancing 😂
To the callers credit he at least tried to engage the questions asked initially, however fallacious his answers. Part of why they were able to walk him back so quickly, it’s just what happens when you follow logic and the evidence 🤷🏾
I like this show because the hosts aren't immediately hostile. New calls are taken with benefit of the doubt and when a caller is a nuisance they may even keep them on the list because their arguments are fascinating and unique, even if they're false. They allow every call to shine as much as the caller allows themselves to shine without taking over the show. It's also interesting nowadays where some hosts take the callers purposes as a red herring to catch something else that's more important (or just keep the topics a little varied. Who knows.)
Dylan, dude, I really wish I still had an island available to sell. Perhaps I can interest you in a bridge, but bro, trust me when I tell you it's the last one and the bestest of all the bridges I've ever had to sell. Sheesh, your mind is a budget travelling circus, fun for the whole family by half.
Hey, i've got oceanfront property in Arizona. If you buy it then i'll throw the golden gate in free. Love that song.
@@CascadeGamerthere is a song?
@steveanton763 yes, "Ocean front property" by George Strait.
Oh my why do they speak in circles????
Because they think in circles
Maybe they have merry go around syndrome. 😅
Circular logic 🙄
It's egocentric thinking, so everything circles back to the self and its subjective and wanton security needs.
I know Caleb Jackson and Dillan. I can assure you, the entire point of this call was to mention Caleb's name in that fashion. That was the only purpose of this call. It was planned by them both. Kind of deceptive and dishonest of them.
A small part if humanity pulls us forward, the rest hangs on to the brakes like their lives depend on it.
Yes indeed.
It seems like most people, very much prefer their familiar problems, to possible unknown solutions.
Fear of the unknown has always been an impediment to change.
I’ve said that many times. 👍
Weasel-wording, redefining, sleazebag pedantry: get him, Matt.,
Paul has a nice “For the Bible tells me so” mug that would look great…
Sitting on a coffee table…
If I were god I would have William Shakespeare write my book. Then everyone would know what the hell I’m talking about. And think of all the trees that would have saved.
and miss great stories like Jonah living in Whales. In the bible I read it said he lived in a wale but that must be a misprint.
Faith is trust in things that are not evidenced, but yet hoped for.
Exactly. It is belief without warrant.
People generally feel uncomfortable with not knowing something.
You can either 'make up your own answers' or just accept 'I don't know'.
This call was excellent. Well done Matt and Paulogia.
You guys both did a good job of easing this fellow along and what might become a rocky journey for him for a while. You were patient, and respectful, and it’s one of the most interesting of these kinds of clips that I’ve heard in a very long time, and I’ve seen a lot of both of you.
I do absolutly agree ❤
patient and respectful??? did i watch a different video? Matt started out instantly being a huge dick to him even when the caller was complimenting his questions and points and trying to honestly answer.
Excellent step by step disassembly of poor argumentation
So……no empirical evidence…..
If they ever did, it would be the scientific consensus.
Fred Astaire only wished he could tap dance like this.
Callers like Dylan sometimes seem to have a bit more basic knowledge... and yet, if you peel the onion, you see that it's the same preaching, replete with a total absence of evidence, logic, or critical thinking.
Totally agree. This is why I feel like some people can be saved (pardon the pun) because someone like Dylan comes across as having been pummelled with dogma day in, day out and twice on Sundays his entire life. But with a good faith (another pun there) debate, taking him through the points and logical errors etc, he could get there eventually. Probably. Maybe.
As a British person, it astounds me that so many Americans argue this stuff as though it were a grown up debate instead of just silliness.
Yeah, cuz no one debates religion in England!
@@rosysulla I am British and I NEVER came upon anyone debating that stuff. That doesn't mean it didn't happen but I never encountered it. That's also why I used the words 'so many', implying that MORE Americans do this than people in other countries.
By the way, did you mean England and, if so, what would your opinion be on the regularity of religious debate in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland? If you meant Britain, it would be nice if you'd say so. Britain or the United Kingdom would provide clarity and avoid looking ignorant.
@@PhilJRoseI'im sure it doesnt happen in those places either!
@@rosysulla Ah well, if you're not going to argue in good faith I have no interest in engaging further. These videos are probably not the best places to construct straw men as a lot of the commenters are smart enough to pull you up on it.
@@PhilJRose Jesus Christ, Phil, lighten up.
30:34 “I feel like that question [LEADS SOMEWHERE I DON’T WANNA GO!]” 🤣🤪
Dylan is confused and sees his own confusion as his 'faith'. His purported 'life-purpose' is his foundation for his faith/confusion. When one piles BS on top of BS you end with a larger pile of BS.
It may have helped him realize his belief is based on supernatural and fantastical phenomena with zero empirical evidence
The problem with people like this, is they do not use the term “rational” in the same way as anyone with a modicum of philosophical reading
To them it merely means that it makes sense to them.
Why do theists ALWAYS re define faith to the non spiritual version
But worse faith is OK when faith can be true or false good or bad
Because they realize that the actual faith from their religion is foolish.
Deep down, very deep inside their minds do not believe these things. They desperately want to. They jump through hoops over and over. They want it to be true so bad but gun to their head most believers would most likely say the whole notion is nonsense
Zdupit iz az zdupit does.
I certainly hope someone has already made a "Jesus, my friend with benefits" T shirt. It would be a huge scandal if that hasn't happened yet.
Awesome! Want one....
This would go great with my "God Loves You...terms and conditions apply" shirt.
This guy really needed Jimmy there asking "what question do you think that I just asked you"
They should change the name of these shows to “the religious people call in and embarrass the shit out of themselves show”
That's the unofficial title lol
Faith was rational to a peasant a thousand years ago before modern science. Today, faith gets in the way of a persons ability to be rational in the age of science.
This is one of the best call-in talks I’ve seen for a very long time. Thank you Dylan for allowing your beliefs to be looked at so closely. There is lot to learn here.
What a great call. Over and over this caller proves that there is zero evidence for his beliefs, yet he REALLY wants to believe so he’s willing to overlook that. It’s pathetic
It’s sad too. It’s sad because he has been indoctrinated so much that now he is one extremely confused individual on his own beliefs
It is not rational to believe anything without evidence.
There isn't any evidence that nature produced life and its diversity.
@@frankhuggins9733it happens billions of time all around you but you're gonna have to leave the house to see it.
@@eatfrenchtoast Your lies are all that is happening. You couldn't present any evidence that nature is capable of producing life and its diversity if your life depended on it.
@@eatfrenchtoastThat doesn’t make it rational
Pretending to belive in the christian god in a society with a christian majority is rational, as it would be rational to pretend beliving in the muslim god in a society with a muslim majority. Being an opportunist is rational. But you can rationally justify being in opposition aswell so that can't be the criteria.
I honestly believe most are doing just that, pretending.
Pauls face is priceless 😅😅😅
This is what happens when you are brought up to believe something, and then surround yourself with others who were brought up to believe the same thing. This man has probably never seriously discussed this with an intelligent non- believer.
“Those who don’t move, don’t notice there Chains”
Their... but good quote.
For someone who's being shown the many, many faults in his thinking, he doesn't seem concerned - but he should be.
It's fun to pin down someone's Cognitive Dissonance
Yes it is!!
This very well could have made him realize that his faith is ridiculous
I can appreciate the call and the caller.. both matt and paul are great❤
Paul, that cartoon insertion was absolutely brilliant. You are the man over and over. Love you guys great job Matt.
Feelings are not evidence. Stop smuggling God into reality 😂
The Kalam is such a useless argument. Our list of things that are able to cause a universe come into existence is completely empty. Even if a god does exist, we still don't know that a god would be capable of creating a universe. Additionally, if we knew a god could create a universe, we still wouldn't know what other things could cause a universe to exist. All of which assumes that the question is even valid to begin with.
Interesting. Never pondered this
Caller : hey Matt I've got words that I use to put into sentences that work when I move my lips in a way that looks like I said words.
17:28 I've never understood the whole "we were persecuted" line of argument to defend a religion. I'm sure Dylan is aware that many different faiths have suffered from persecution (Judaism and Islam in Europe, Rastafarianism in the Caribbean, the Druze and Yazidis in the Middle-East, myriad traditional practices in South America, to cite but a handful) and that Christianity has in turn perpetuated persecution against other faiths, and even other denominations of Christianity. If I'm to take a particular religions claim that it's suffered from persecution as proof of it's validity, what's stopping me from looking beyond Christianity and even beyond the claims made by other Abrahamic faiths? I can think of plenty of ancient pre-Abrahamic religions that were more-or-less persecuted out of existence, and plenty more that survived despite enormous efforts to erase them from collective cultural memory.
By Dylan's standards I'd need to take the Falun Gong cult's wackiness seriously too - they have undeniably been discriminated against by the Chinese government, even if some of the claims about that discrimination are pretty lurid and questionable.
39:43 I'd forgotten about this answer Dylan gave to Matt's inquiry. Dylan unironically wants us to entertain the notion that Jesus is the best evidence that God created the universe because Dylan believes in Jesus. Just accept this one bit of the Bible without thinking too hard about it, and the rest of it will make perfect sense! I can't wait to reread the Operating Thetan doctrine of Scientology, but this time I'll put my silly scepticism aside and just "affirm" that Xenu brought the Thetans to Earth on his fleet of giant space jetliners.
Not to mention there is a church on every freaking corner in America. Literally the least persecuted place in the world for religion. But Starbucks doesn't put christmas themed stuff on a cup and the idiot xians go all postal.
Matt at his best.
This IS one of the best calls ever, in terms of the contours of the argument ✅💚
It's so weird when a caller is just all over the place. "Let me try this.. oops! Dead end. Let me try this now... oops! Well, I didn't really mean to try that. How about this? Ooops!"
The timing of paul turning himself into a cartoon was perfect.😂
Dylan is a polite man.
It was a very good call.
Thank you... God😉
RE: Dylan (first caller) - Calling a hypothesis some kind of faith is just absurd. A hypothesis is a candidate explanation for the observation. It is an educated guess as to the cause of an observation. Then the goal is to disprove the hypothesis. Where does faith factor into this? The scientist is not accepting that the hypothesis is true or even likely true. They are saying, "Based on everything we observe, this is a candidate cause". There can be multiple hypotheses and the scientist is not claiming "this IS the cause". If I look out my front window, and the sidewalk is wet, I could have several hypotheses: It rained. Someone sprayed the sidewalk with a hose. Someone dumped a bucket of water out after washing their car. Proposing the hypotheses is not a faith claim. It's not a claim at all to propose a hypothesis. We propose possible explanations then we test each to find the spoiler to exclude that explanation. To claim the scientist is accepting the hypothesis on faith, even a tentative faith, belies a misunderstanding of how the scientific method works. At no point does the scientist "accept" the hypothesis as true or even likely true. Only "possibly" true.
49:46 I know my HomestarRunner! *That* noise, sir, is *ChairScoot*!
A hypothesis is tested to see if it matches predictions. No faith required.
Just because something has some benefits doesn't really mean it is rational to believe it.
And you also have to look at the negative consequences too.
Omg this whole, “God is outside of space and time,” thing is so stupid. If a god is outside of space and time, and we’re in space and time, how the hell would anyone know that a god exists? Even if a god exists, how could anyone come to that conclusion? Oh yeah that’s right, “faith.” The word that’s only use is to comfort those who don’t want to know the actual truth.
God used to live on the mountain, then people climbed the mountain. Then it was the sky and people flew. Then it was space and we went to space. It's all they have left.
The moment they start tap dancing, it's all over. Their examples in circumstances and "what if" scenarios and justifications get more and more outlandish by the minute.
"Wow the Tarantella is a very long dance."
Dylan: "Hold my beer."
Church tales credit for joy, goodness, and the universe.... Talk about going for it.
So holier than thou. Everything about the church is so holier than thou
wow, that's some firewall that caller has installed in his brain, what a defense mechanism!
I see Dylan standing by the side of an empty hi-way in his head praying an idea comes along.
I always have a bit of an odd feeling for people who preface everything they say with the phrase "I Would Say", it is almost as he is trying to avoid commiting to any position he is trying to defend.
I don't have faith in anything but I'll give my trust to people and things based on reasonable expectations. Neither do I believe anything but I'll accept things based on reason, logic and rational arguments.
Belief ≠ acceptance and faith ≠ trust.
The mindset of secular usage and religious usage is NOT the same. I'm not getting into arguments about dictionaries and etymology.
Faith is having the ability to believe any claim that has zero evidence to support it.
Then ignore, alter and invent as much reality as you feel you have to --just to sustain your indoctrinated belief and then hold that ability to do so as a badge of honor.
"no no no no no no no no no FUCKING NO!" Matt D.
Religion stems back to neolithic times when early man would watch the Northern Lights or a meteor shower, and couldn't couldn't come up with a rational explanation as to what he was witnessing.
Its*
Tits
*CALLER Defends Rationality of Faith Because of its "Benefits" | Matt Dillahunty & Paulogia
It's just a badly phrased title all around. Just say Caller Defends the "Benefits" of Faith, or Caller Claims "Benefits" Rationalize Faith, or Caller Defends the "Rationality" of Faith. That title sounds like it was written by a middle schooler.
By Dylan's criteria, every church/religion is true.
another theist using words they do not understand, 'rational', 'hypothesis', 'faith', 'empirical', 'evidence', 'historical' and all in the name of believing a lie.
In defense of this line of argument, religion does provide a ready-made alliance to join. This is a huge benefit when you face opposition/aggression from other people. Yes, we could have these alliances by using true arguments, but that's not the reality that we live in, unfortunately.
I'm an atheist, anti-theist, and staunch defender of truth, but gun-to-my-head, I'd act like i was a believer. I think it's completely rational to do that, even knowing it's not sincere.
"It is rational to believe even if it is not true because of the benefits".
No.
That is inherent proof that god is not necessary.
54:06 nice one Matt
It benefits a trans woman when she tells you that she is a woman, and the only thing you have to go off of is to take her word for it. That requires a great amount of faith.
Are you slow? That applies to everyone. Or do you check the genitals and do genetic testing every time you meet someone? It's adorable that you thought this was some sort of gotcha though.
You can never know if they are lying. I agree. That is why, we need to say, "tough ship, you are a man/woman, deal with it".
I like this caller. I think he's on a good track. I hope he gets there safe.
He begins to question this indoctrination. You dan hear it in his voice later on in the video.
That was painful
good job matt and paulogia🎉
Do you really think that believing in a god is better? Why do priests want to slow down all progress in science? And why do they (often secretly) use the inventions created by that science? In secular countries in Europe, people are happier and more considerate of each other. Far fewer murders are committed, possibly because they are aware that there is only one life. What else but wars and poverty have faith brought in the past thousands of years? Only the priests had and are still trying to create a heaven for themselves at the expense of ordinary people.
They are evil
*_A True Master Of Bias_** ;*
W.L. Craig, actually bragged about lowering his epistemological bar to the ground, but only for his preferred version of Christianity.
For all other Gods & religions, he raises it to the roof. lol
his script broke down near the end and he became unable to even hear the question accurately
wow! that was epic! and that slam dunk flourish at the end by Matt!! holy cow!
Dylan gave them a “run for their money” didn’t he.
The first person accounts of Jesus in the bible were only accredited to his contemporaries several hundred year later. The first written accounts of Jesus was by Flavius Josephus a man that was born after the death of Jesus.
I wonder why the caller doesn't take any other religions writings as history? Many Greeks wrote about Zeus, why not believe in him?
Why is every response "well I would say ...", instead of just answering the question?
It feels like he is hypothetically arguing, as opposed to presenting his views.
He is an extremely confused and conflicted guy. It is sad to me actually
He sounds like Mac from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia
Yep!!!
*Dylan prioritises "feeling good", over "finding truth".*
_At least he's not alone._
(religion, the opiate of the masses)
33:19 Paul use this image at the time stamp for your annual Christmas card to remember for all the Christian’s on the mailing list of your shows…..even a cartooned version.
Matt n paulogia powerful duo combo ❤❤❤💪💪💪 great show guys ,keep rocking as usual.
"It is rational to believe in Christianity…even though, the Christianity isn’t true."
No explanation needed😅😅😅
(Religion DOES damage your brain.)
Why do ppl that adhere to a religion that's basis is faith feel it necessary to embarrass themselves by offering ignorant, simplistic and down right dumb "evidence" that they wouldn't except for any other subject?
Faith is the most dishonest position one can hold.
"Blessed are the cheesemakers".
It's not irrational to find something that helps you navigate life. What's irrational is finding something that is based entirely in fairytales and endlessly trying to convince people it's true.
Love the show, the "it's" in the title is driving me crazy
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
- 2 Timothy 4:3-4 KJV
I don't think Dylan is following the bible if he believes just simply holding faith in something is beneficial. Even the bible says to listen to sound doctrine, not just anything.