Growing up going to Christian church every week I remember the priests always saying how the suffering in this world was warranted because of how great the reward of eternal life will be. They even had a song they would sing every service for the suffering, "Let us rejoice and be glad in it". I was so happy to get out of religion.
Liberation theology in Latin America was born out of this realization; why should the rich get it so good and everyone else suffer "for that great reward in heaven," why not let all the people have some comfort and plenty in this life? My wife, from South America and formerly a Catholic, got kicked out of high school when she made a poster that declared "Jesus Christ was a socialist."
That would be horrible even if everyone went to heaven. Celebrating that you're one of the lucky few who will reap the rewards while everyone else suffers is a fundamentally selfish endorsement of a cruel system. If the suffering of anyone is necessary for someone to receive their reward, then by definition others are being sacrificed for you.
I also grew up in church, and was a happy little follower for most of my young life. I still vividly remember one day standing in church, getting a little tired from all the singing, and the preacher goes, "I can't wait to go to heaven and spend eternity singing for God." It was like a hypnotist snapping their fingers. I immediately went, "This is the fucking reward? An eternity of this?" It took a year or two more for me to separate from the church, but I'd like to thank that preacher for saving me xD
Religion poisons people's brains in a way that is just so frustrating to try to unravel. Keep up the work guys. You explain things in a way that most can not. 💙🇺🇲
I let my child grow up without religion, and did not expose him to it until high school when he took a world religion class. He is now trying to understand how people fall for the lies of religion. I try to explain people are brainwashed from birth.
Also, what if some completely different religion/god is real? There's really no winning with that, you can't worship all gods just in case, because that's usually forbidden in at least the abrahamic religions.
That what if game is a trap. What if it's worth it?? You might as well ask, "What if your god just took you straight to that wonderful afterlife and didn't torture you first?" After all, he's supposedly all powerful and he literally made the rules. The logical conclusion of that is he did it on purpose and wants the suffering. Or he doesn't exist. There really isn't an option for a loving kind god.
When I was a teenager there was a day when everyone else in my family was doing groceries and I was alone on our farm taking care of chores. I was in an empty barn, washing a milk tank, when I suddenly heard something that sounded like footsteps. First I thought I was just mishearing things, but then I heard them again. The sound was really clear, it was rubber boots on concrete floor. I wen't around checking things; Was it the pipes? No, running water didn't seem to effect the sound. Was someone else there with me? No, I checked every room. They were empty apart from a storage room that was so full of stuff that there was no space for a person there. And still it sounded like someone was running around and stopping just behind the corner to avoid coming to my view. I got scared and left the barn, standing outside and just listening to the foot steps. After panicking a little I decided that I absolutely had to find out what caused the sounds. I was sure they were coming from the milking stations so I started slowly walking towards the room. I was halfway there, when I heard the sound again, but it wasn't coming from the milking stations, it came from the full storage left of me. I turned around... In the storage there was a pile of empty cardboard boxes. We had gotten the boxes from a friend who gave us old bread to feed to our animals. In the box at the top of the pile, there was a sparrow jumping around and eating crumbs.
I was born without a sense of smell. I can clearly remember being a young child and all my friends saying things like "I smell a skunk", or "wow, someone is growing mushrooms around here" (horse manure) and although I would plainly say, "yeah, I smell it too", but I was confused because everything is just air to me. Peer pressure confuses peoples minds.
I was the same way with a minds eye. I always thought it was a figure of speach to say picture such and such in your mind. I had no idea people actually see and hear things in their heads. It's all black and silent in my head
My sense of smell is all jacked up from my allergies over the years. Some days I can smell a lil bit, most days little to nothing. I can sympathize with just going along with how others are reacting to smells. It’s one of those things you don’t notice until you don’t have one.
Sometimes mind can conjure stuff up. A long time ago one day when I went to work and my boss walked right past me in the hall and at that point I would've 100% sworn under oath that he was there.. but when I went to look into his office he wasn't here.. and I was told he was on a trip hundreds of miles away. I had been very stressed and hadn't slept well but it's still feels crazy.. it was the point I realized how unreliable eye witness accounts can be.
@@digitalspecter I suffer from sleep paralysis quite often. I hear whispers, I feel movement on the sheets, I see stuff in the corner of my eyes... It's literallly my mind creating a dream using real life assets. And the most fucked up part is that it makes me "know" things. There was this time where whatever thing crawled up in my bed just curled on my feet and was "good", how can I know that if I only see the thing? Because it's dreamlike. So when people have experiences and they "know" it's true because of how it made them fell... yeah, just like dreams make you feel and know things that are not real.
@@Germanchu92Same with drugs. Psychedelics for example can be a great tool for understanding the subjectivity of reality, and learning things about your own mind, but some people who shouldn't take psychedelics but still do, often find themselves convinced of the "truth" or reality of ideas that are demonstrably false or completely contrary to OTHER "truthes" that a different person might perceive on the same substance. The universe is both out, and within. It's all in your head.
If eyewitness accounts actually meant something to religious people then why aren’t they all Mormons. The most recent apparent eyewitnesses all say Joseph smith was a prophet
Ages ago, when I was a teenager, I was washing my hair. I could hear my parents talking, blurred and distorted because of the water but very much voices. I kept hearing them as I was getting dressed, and started to talk to them, on my way to the living room. Just then…my parents got home. I had been entirely alone in the apartment and unknowingly talking to myself.
@@Germanchu92Saw a thing somewhere where a person had sleep paralysis visions of Batman sitting at the end of their bed, and they just went back to sleep because it wasn't any business of theirs what Batman was up to
Forrest made a very similar argument about sins of the father, I always say “if you put a jar of poison in front of a baby and say “don’t eat this or else” and when they inevitably eat it, because they don’t understand that it’s wrong, if they survive would it be fair to ground them and their descendants for life for all of time
@@DQ_Mineyes that's why he gave them digestive system and mouth correct size for sacred fruit consumption. They already had everlasting life they didn't need to eat to live
That's true of just slut anyone. If you look at the idea of what they want for themselves its usually decent. It's the moment of you look at what they want for anyone else it falls apart.
The promise of eternal reward is a great way to get people to accept suffering, without revolting. `Paul` claimed it was a good thing. That we should be happy when we suffer, because it builds character! Romans 5:1-5 - That implies that `God` could not create a reality with `righteous beings,` without suffering. Which is pretty spurious for an entity claimed to be essentially perfection itself. However, it is a great way to control people if you can convince them of it.
the aspect of "crowd control" is also so transparent and obvious ESPECIALLY when you see the leadership echolon of every religion or cult living like kings its not even funny.
It was Mother Theresa's entire ministry. And people still prop her up as a wonderful person. Just goes to show how effective the brainwashing of religion can be.
The 'probability' of life occuring is 1. It happened. End of story. How the hell would you ever calculate the odds? Against what other Possible outcome?
@@Imperial-Socialistyet more advanced than every other apologist in that the probability argument is the only reasonable argument. It still falls flat, but it is reasonable.
@@kennybachman35 For US residents the probability is statistically higher than an 8th grade education- but a program could run respondents time of entry, GPS, country of origin, and comment history to verify my statement- based on other probabilities. Accurate reality modeling is all probability based on pattern recognition-correlation with verification for proof of causation.
Let's take their probability calculation for granted and say they have the correct denominator. The numerator is clearly incorrect as there is more than just one planet life might have arisen on.
This show has been a superb display of patience and thoughtful, mindful processing of ideas and beliefs. Thank you to these hosts as well as the honest interlocutors. Thank you so much for this high value content.
18:30 I love how the caller was like: "yah. well.. I just wanted to throw my idea out there... so that people who don't want to critically think about things can have something to latch onto. I didn't expect the hosts to actually call out that I have no evidence or reason to believe it." NO SIR. You don't get to just declare something, and then do a mike drop and walk away with a win. That's not how this works.
A god, who is therefore supposed to be perfect and able to do everything, could easily do what he wants without having to starve children or do evil things. No matter how much mental gymnastics they do they will never find a solution, their imaginary friend is obligatory evil, he cannot be good. The simple existence of evil proves that it cannot be good.
True. if the stories of GOD were true, GOD would have to be mostly evil and sadistic. It would be (like you said) very easy for me to imagine and make a perfect enjoyable place for my creation if I had any powers at all. It's not that hard to imagine even with my limited knowledge. With unlimited power and knowledge it would be even easier.
Why do you say its mental gymnastics and then reach a conclusion on the matter yourself? Have you researched this question extensively? Would you be open to any further discussion on the issue?
@Conan_the_rastafarian the mental gymnastics involve, among other things, rationalizing how a loving god gives children cancer, condones genocide, condones slavery , ect. There is no magical being, we evolved like all other animals and we suffer and behave just like all other social animals. To believe in magic is not necessary or helpful.
Most Gods were not perfect or able to do everything though, the evolved version of superman god is quite new. Look at Norse Mythology or Greek Mythology, they fucked up all the time and weren't really good at the shit they were supposed to do.
THere has been several interesting studies done around group psychology. One that I like is where you show a group a photo of a nature scene with sagebrush, prairie grass, sand etc, and you ask if anyone can see the mountain lion hidden in the scene(there is no mountain lion). Because you've mentioned a mountain lion, some people in a group will ALWAYS find the mountain lion(which isn't actually there). EVERYONE in the group will see it when someone points to a part of the picture and says "See, there's the tip of it's tail". But it was never in the photo.
In a world where everyone has a video camera in their pocket, how can someone even speculate that these unfounded claim might be true but never recorded?
Using ultra high resolution monitors/ Portable image generators that are upframed and synchronized one may use a cellphone to record the monitor/portable image generator to get false reality that has real meta-data. Easy to fake.Meta-data is hackable for the right price.
Ghosts and the poltergiest demons are afraid of cameras. They learned how to hide from them from bigfoot, who has famously only been caught by one. After that, he dedicated his 700-year lifespan to learning how to avoid moment capture technology and teach other cryptids to do the same.
Hmm. Not really. I like Forrest the scientist, and don’t mind Forrest the philosophy enthusiast. Not so keen on Forrest the social historian. Caricature at best.
I used to be just like Alexander until I read the old testament as an adult and had a very Forrest-like reaction to it. The whole thing unraveled like a sweater and now I'm here, happier than ever. I think Alex was one of the best callers I've heard come on. Everyone gets a star in my book for being brave enough to call, but he was also respectful, thoughtful, and willing to admit that he didn't know everything, and willing to let his gut emotions over the support of slavery show.
I'll never tire of Forrest coming up with some amazing nonsense in lieu of the caller home state, and then seeming genuinely bewildered by his own words. He's awesome... :3
Whenever i hear this i ask people do you remember being born? do you remember anything before you were born? No, then why would you know anything after death then?
Im gunna take a leap and assume you are not American. If that's the case, we are not all absurdly asinine. We just have the loudest idiots among our population.
Yes so refreshing and so true. Americans have a very effective brainwashing system leading them to believe their country is the best without knowing ANYTHING about the rest of the world
You see it in more left leaning circles among Americans. Unfortunately our politics is so twisted that it only runs from fascist to centrists in power. At most among prominent media you get some centrist lib shit.
This reminds me of when I was in high school and we had to build a catapult and were told explicitly to not build a trebuchet. We asked what a trebuchet was and the teacher said don't worry just build a catapult. Wouldn't you know it we accidentally built a trebuchet.
That guy was really chill, I hope he calls back! I know some people are annoyed with some of the stuff he said but at the end of the day it seems like he’s arguing in good faith & genuinely trying to figure out what he believes. We’ve all gotta start somewhere
I was definitely expecting him to blow up when Forrest starting talking about how America has always historically sucked, was pleasantly surprised he actually just seemed to take it on the chin. Would be better if he actually engaged with it, but Ill take not dying on that hill as better than most callers would do.
@@adaephon- Apparently, he has the privilege to not really care. He likes his American mythology, likely similar to how he likes his Christian mythology. And apparently, he doesn't really care how European colonizers, the U.S., Christianity, or many Christians and Christian organizations have unduly harmed people. When confronted with the gen-o-side and brutal chattel slavery of the early U.S., he suggested that things were better then than today - outside of the "personal misconduct" of some of the "Founding Fathers" (when gen-o-side and chattel slavery were systemic - not just personal misconduct). I won't guess that he thinks that marginalized people should be much worse off than they are today. But it seems pretty clear that he doesn't really care about marginalized people being mistreated today or in past generations. I hear that from a lot of yt Americans who idealize the past, when things were much, much worse for marginalized people. They may even half-heartedly say that the past mistreatment was wrong, but ultimately they prefer their idealized version of the past and they think things are worse today based upon their personal hang ups (e.g., divorce rates - as if women locked in bad and even abusive marriages was better, impoliteness - as if gen-o-side, slavery, racial terrorism, homophobia, etc. were polite, "things have gone too far in favor of women and/or blk people," etc.).
I love how respectful the end of this was. I hope the caller is doing alright. It definitely seems like he’s been questioning his faith and from someone who’s been there, I know how deep that can cut sometimes. No matter what his beliefs are now, I hope you’re doing alright, man. And it’ll be okay.
One thing that always bothers me is people saying something is a 50/50 thing when it very clearly isnt. Even beyond the idea of false dichotomies, its not a 50/50 thing of whether someone is accurately reporting a supernatural phenomenon. If i got on a basketball court with Lebron James and said that I won in a one on one played to the end its 50/50 in the sense that I either won or I didn't, but there is absolutely not 50/50 odds that I won or didnt. My win, like all these supernatural reports, is completely imaginary.
Or if they do catch it, it's either faked or in such a poor quality that you cannot discern what you are looking at. In most cases without fail you'll have people say "See! I knew I was right!"
All whilst the Popes lived lives of debauchery, luxury and gluttony and any other sin they could come up with. The most foul con ever inflicted on humanity and it’s still allowed. 🥺
'What If It's All Worth It in Heaven?' Pfft, no. Everyone is suddenly rendered as Brother and Sister there. The institution and practice of marriage no longer exists. For the sake of an argument, let me put it this way: a happy married couple living with each other in romantic, sexual and marital context wouldn't be allowed to be with each other the way _they_ wanted to be with each other. And that's just a possible example I could bring to mind.
I feel that a lot of folks here on the athiest side get so caught up in being right that they leave their empathy behind. Forrest and Jesse have my infinite respect for so much, but their ability to treat someone with kindness when other athiests might blow up at them brings that respect to another level. This is what a role-model looks like.
first thing i notice about this caller... around the 10-12 minute mark... After Jesse described a HORRIFIC event in his OWN PERSONAL LIFE, the callers reaction was to laugh, and ask "well what if you were there and you SAW all that happen?" SO DISRESPECTFUL... his response should have been something to the affect of "wow man, I'm so sorry to hear that happened..."
Just because you don’t know the explanation doesn’t mean the supernatural exists. Alex says he thinks 90% of the supernatural experiences out there are bs but what is his test to determine the other 10% are not?
I'm a big fan of puzzle games, puzzles in games etc. and have solved many. A lot of the time I may find myself stuck, unable to continue with the current situation. Perhaps there's a hidden switch nearby that opens the next passageway and I'm missing it. I don't assume "this puzzle must be impossible, there's no way to complete it" Once I find the answer, it's usually something like "oh wow, how did I miss that?" and I become aware of new possibilities in other games. Same thing in real life situations, humans have come up with crazy explanations for how lightning works. It was the gods, Zeus or whoever. Then upon logical investigation, we found the answer. If I myself were to see someone crawling up a wall, I would first think that maybe my mind was tricking me, maybe I was tired or asleep having a vivid dream. Or maybe someone slipped a drug in my drink or something like that. I wouldn't assume any kind of supernatural thing (although I also wouldn't reject that if it turned out to have some way to show the supernatural explanation to be possible)... basically just make no assumptions at all, assuming it was God or something can only be willful ignorance of the possibilities. A divine deity is "technically" on the chart for possibilities, and I say that tentatively, but until it's shown to be true it will never be the conclusion.
When Alex talked about poor starved people entering the gates of heaven saying “Wow”…all I could think of was that darned Christian rule where these folks that are worried about where a morsel of food might come from, would have to first accept Jesus into their hearts etc etc. Christianity kinda teaches that most of these poor wretches will end up in hell and torment forever. Such is the great love of their god.
I'm 13 minutes into the video and i feel like the caller has just been repeating the same hypothetical over and over again with slight variations. Can we please move on or do we need to go over it one more time?
It is really difficult to stay patient with people doing mental gymnastics to keep believing in the bible and god. I used to be one of them and have literally apologized to friends of mine who used to have these conversations with me. FWIW, these conversations do make an incremental difference and will help free people like Alexander from their dogmatic prisons someday.
It’s difficult to respond to hypothetical situations without being in the environment where they occur. It might be that deciding that witnessing an event is sufficient for belief leaves you open to miss explanations that are more suitable. It would probably be more useful to have a principle of doubt and investigation so you aren’t duped by clever people trying to fool you.
Right there with Jesse, and by default Alexander. I'll never forget the moment I realised I was a heretic that had created my own faith, which disagreed with the religion I grew up believing. Forced me to further realise what that meant, rationally.
About the tornado in the junk yard... It would be a good example of evolution, if junk had the property of bonding(in predictable and 'sometimes' stable ways) to other pieces of junk.
One fun thing about lie detectors, they're actually *very* effective, just not at detecting lies. They're barely more than a prop. The interviewer can be detached and neutral, or put themselves against the machine (the enemy of my enemy is my...). They can form a connection with you by bantering during the setup, or even during the interview. They can make physical contact if you're the sort that feels relaxed and connected by this (adjusting the leads, for example). They can use body language (or even their words) to make you feel like they do or do not believe you so as to encourage you to continue to speak. Once you are back in the formal interrogation you'll be told you "didn't do very well" or "your answers will all over the place" or that you're "not a very good liar" and your body "gives strong signals". They'll say it can only help you because if you pass you'll convince them, and if you fail it can't be used against you. But your words will be used against you in the interrogation room, and your words there will be used in court, so ultimately they'll still hang you based on what you said in the polygraph interview without actually using the polygraph results. Talk to a lawyer, not the police. Even if you aren't the subject of an investigation, if you're in the police station, you are there for a reason. Get a lawyer. Talk to the lawyer. The lawyer is the closest thing you have to someone that isn't an enemy.
When I was about 5 years old, an adult came into our house in a shocked and agitated state and described a terrible and fatal accident they had just witnessed very nearby. I internalized and dramatized and visualized the event so clearly in my child's mind, that I was also traumatized and would replay the incident in my mind for many decades, until it finally came up in conversation with my family. I believed I had witnessed the event. I could see it in my mind. I described it just like it had happened. But, I was NOT there, I was simply imprinted upon by the emotions of the adult who related the event. After a lifetime of "experiencing" the event in my mind and body, it was a new shock to come to terms with how incorrect my belief was around this event. The self-inflicted torture had repeated unbidden for decades, and it wasn't even mine to carry. It wasn't my truth. It was given to me through contact with another when I was open and impressionable. The mind is a tricky little machine.
So many bots already 😬😬 Jesse’s line of “he’s already making his own bible” is profound af I see that in so many believers in my life who are also better than the god they believe in. Don’t get me wrong, I prefer it when they get rid of some of the problematic and harmful parts of their faith but then, they might as well ditch the whole thing. Good call 🙌✨ (Two emojis at the end as a shoutout to the bots)
Its so hard for people who are brainwashed into religion to change their mind even if they agree with your points, they'll still jump through hoops and move the goal post to believe what they already believe
I have a What-If for Alexander: What if substantial evidence came along that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe was created by a god. It has changed the way scientists all over the world think about the universe. Here's the catch, the evidence proves that the god who created the universe was Ra, the Egyptian God of the Sun. Would Alexander abandon Christianity entirely and go worship Ra instead? How many Christians will completely abandon Christianity to do the same?
I once heard a scary scratching noise on my front door but upon opening the door beheld nothing. Hearing it again I investigated further to find one of the trees in my landscaping was brushing against the gutter.
Alexander sounds like a guy at the edge of deconversion, has spotted the problems and evils of christianity but is too afraid, yet, to take the final step. You are both right, he is better than his god.
Let me pose a question to this dude or people like him... If Zach is really doing what he says he is, why does he have a museum full of the objects? What properties of glass keep the bad energy under control? And would you go to a museum filled with radioactive material? Or is it ethical to run one as an attraction? It doesn't make sense. And I get it. I watched the documentaries and all. So why is a piece of the house that's soooo evil that it "permanently damaged his vision" just sitting there for anyone to take a picture next to? I get it. That stuff is weirdly interesting. "How did these bricks and boards go flying? I'm struggling to find a rational explanation." But that's if you take it on face value that they're telling you the truth and not running a multi-million dollar business with the pure interest in making money under the illusion of "looking for the truth." That's why I absolutely dislike that Skinwalker Ranch show. "Real Scientists doing science and going 'wooooah' is compelling stuff, wouldn't you say?" Me, personally? I wouldn't. Because the "science" is sketchy as all getout.
"The world is a mystery" sounds a lot like "I don't want to understand the world" to me. Where would modern medicine be if people said "The human body is a mystery" and left it at that?
Keep asking question, Alexander. Growing up I was scared to do so because I didn't want to go to hell. But there was so much that didn't make sense to me, I couldn't help it. Keep pulling on threads and you'll either be more assured of your position or you'll find that your position doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Either option is better than blind faith.
@@haydensanford1987 yes island too, it was a Danish colonie... Still alot Danish..... Norway and Sweden too... Scandinavia is the bedst,.... greetings from Skandinavia Danmark 🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰
@@2for99cents yes, and thank you,...but it is True,...this is a very peaceful place, we have our problems,.but Scandinavia is one of the greatest places to live,...we got high taxes, but what we get for that,.. its not that bad....it is actually Great....whit medical health care, social care, etc....it gives peace of mind...and happiness 😉
Not just starving kids or kids getting cancer, and other horrible diseases, but this sadistic god, if you want to believe he is real, you'd have to also accept that he intentionally designed an entire ecosystem that feeds off other life, some in very brutal ways, if you've ever watched sharks, lions, snakes, etc, feed.....and humans are at times dinner too.
Nothing kills the idea of Free Will more than an Omniscient god. If your every choice is known eons in advance, then your free will is no less an illusion than that of a character in a book.
The truly cruel thing about the God's will idea is that it convinces those starving to death that God can help them. Then God doesn't help and they are praying and praying everyday to understand why they are being punished. Alexander would have a lot of hard work to do if God was starving him.
The thing that this caller is woefully overlooking is that, in the scenario that this eternal land of bliss or whatever actually exists, it effectively makes life meaningless, especially for people who just come here to get brutally wiped out in the worst ways possible. Why not just *not* be born? That makes infinitely more sense
When it comes to proving the supernatural (exorcisms ,Ouija boards I believe were mentioned in this call) James Randi is the best example I can think of to help somebody understand that we purely have no evidence of these things. I never really had any reason to believe in the supernatural but learning about James Randi and how hard he worked to combat these things took any lingering suspicion from me. It’s easier to understand that brains do crazy things and memories aren’t reliable in the sense that we typically think they are. I think learning about JREF is the most down to earth way to explain supernatural phenomenon and I hope more people can use that to their benefit.
I continued to believe for a while despite doubts because I convinced myself that believing wasn't hurting me or anyone else, that I wasn't missing out on anything, that I was happier believing God exists and loves me even if there's nothing (I just dismissed the possibility of a different God because I figured they had no greater chance of existing than the god I believed in). Then I realized that my religion had been hurting me. I was a closeted pansexual who spent countless hours praying to God to take away my 'confusion'. I missed out on possible relationships because I was afraid God would be angry and punish me. I repeated hurtful rhetoric to others (e.g. love the sinner hate the sin). I still haven't come out to my mom because it would cause her great distress. There are no non-religious reasons to reject LGBTQ+ rights or to hate yourself for being queer. If you're a Christian that does live and accept LGBTQ+ rights, great! I made that change first, based on biblical interpretations. But why would a loving God allow his word to be used to hurt so many people? Also, you can think of any other positions in your life that are based solely on your religion? Are there people being hurt by your beliefs, attitudes, politics, etc, for no other reason than your religious bias?
As someone who's been a part of the atheist and secular humanist movement for decades at this point, and a fan of Forrest, I really wish he wouldn't refer to the modern United States of America as a "living nightmare" for anyone who isn't a 'rich, able-bodied heterosexual cisgender white man'. For all the flaws in the history of our country, there is truly no place I would choose to be born instead, as a black man. I would not want to be born in Europe, or in Africa, or in the Middle East, or in Asia, or in South America. This country, for all her flaws, is the closest thing the world has ever known to the land you have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I've lived it, and you live it, and I feel my heart ache for the people born in places like North Korea and Eritrea who have never known freedom. For any Americans who read this, just think about what your life would be like if you were born in a real dictatorship, like those places I just mentioned, and feel grateful to be born here in the USA.
I am elderly, disabled , low income and homeless. I grew up middle class including college. America has let me down. I would rather live in Scandinavia at this point. At least I’d be housed
Gonna have to Citation needed Forests response at 2:28 Is he talking about Sally Hemings? She and her son would later accompany Jefferson on his diplomatic tours in France so I can assure you she was not “chained in the basement”
"Chained in the basement" is hyperbole, but (going off Wikipedia) the diplomatic tours she accompanied Jefferson on were from when she was 14 to 16. She was impregnated (to put it lightly) by 44 y/o Jefferson during that time. A 16 y/o girl, enslaved and abused from birth, pregnant, choosing not to pursue freedom in France rather than stay with the guy who also owned her entire family back in America is hardly a defense. Her quarters weren't a basement, but they were seemingly underneath the south terrace (because there were multiple terraces on the slave plantation, so it has to be specified). Point being, laying out the whole story doesn't help much and takes a lot of time to lay out when the details of Jefferson SA-ing his child slave aren't relevant. The point is he had a child slave he owned and abused for her entire life, holding her extended family hostage as slaves. Him keeping her quarters beneath a terrace rather than in an explicit basement and her not literally being in chains her entire life doesn't change that.
Most people, when they hear a loud voice around them, look around for the speaker, they do not automatically assume it's a deity. When he's talking about exorcists witnessing people levitating off the bed 6', he's talking about what he's witnessed in movies that are "based on true events". These events never happened the way he described. People talking in "unknown languages" were talking in gibberish because they were mentally ill or suffering from epileptic seizures. Funny how as neuroscience has developed, possessions have decreased.
30:36 coder here. This analogy of same code being used in multiple places is wrong. Programming has this concept called "Inheritance". The most basic example is - you need to program a bunch of shapes and have all of them be able to calculate their area and perimeter. You can make a copy of same function for every shape, but then you notice that function name "GetArea" clashes with another function name and you want to change it to "GetShspeArea". And now you have to revisit every individual shape and there are some other shapes other coders added so you miss them because you didn't know they existed and now the program starts to break. Or you can bake an abstract class "Shape". Put shared functions into it. And make individual shape classes it's descendants so they inherit this same function. It is all much more nuanced and complicated than this, but this is just a small demonstration. So if you examine the good code you will easily be able to Dell if those diverse classes are derived from one another or they just happen to have similar but in actuality separate features.
Code analogies fail so many ways it's really frustrating that they keep getting brought up. One of my favorite counters is that the entire modern "AI"/ChatGPT boom is built off statistical modeling and evolution. Designing smart programs is really hard, so people tried to just design a program that can chew up a ton of data to come up with probably correct answers. It works surprisingly well, but it's also really inefficient and complex and not designed in the slightest outside of its starting parameters. No human could write ChatGPT in a million years, but humans could write the rules that could generate ChatGPT after countless iterations and churning through all text ever written over months of processor time on the most powerful computers attainable. Forming an analogy from here, the "design" from God would in the rules that govern reality and cosmology. Though this gets kinda nutty to follow through on because it took us humans many attempts to reach ChatGPT 4 which, if extended to the analogy to "designed reality", means there were prior realities that were tossed away for not being up to snuff or were created only to be iterated upon. And we have no idea if we're in ChatGPT 1, ChatGPT 4, or ChatGPT final. Sure, tossing out whole universes of sentient life for being bad is kinda messed up to us, but that's basically what God is described as doing with the flood. Thinking about all the ways theistic arguments fails always gets me rambling, lol.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Growing up going to Christian church every week I remember the priests always saying how the suffering in this world was warranted because of how great the reward of eternal life will be. They even had a song they would sing every service for the suffering, "Let us rejoice and be glad in it". I was so happy to get out of religion.
Liberation theology in Latin America was born out of this realization; why should the rich get it so good and everyone else suffer "for that great reward in heaven," why not let all the people have some comfort and plenty in this life? My wife, from South America and formerly a Catholic, got kicked out of high school when she made a poster that declared "Jesus Christ was a socialist."
@@stevepierce6467I almost got kicked out of youth group for saying that same thing and that he was a hippy 😅
@@sillymamacita3854 Absolutely! The first primordial hippy!!!
That would be horrible even if everyone went to heaven. Celebrating that you're one of the lucky few who will reap the rewards while everyone else suffers is a fundamentally selfish endorsement of a cruel system. If the suffering of anyone is necessary for someone to receive their reward, then by definition others are being sacrificed for you.
I also grew up in church, and was a happy little follower for most of my young life. I still vividly remember one day standing in church, getting a little tired from all the singing, and the preacher goes, "I can't wait to go to heaven and spend eternity singing for God."
It was like a hypnotist snapping their fingers.
I immediately went, "This is the fucking reward? An eternity of this?"
It took a year or two more for me to separate from the church, but I'd like to thank that preacher for saving me xD
If god has a plan there cant be free will.
Did God force you to be an atheist or did you decide it yourself?
There's not much evidence for free will, God or no. It's only religions that do mental gymnastics to claim there is free will.
Expect to worship the air
Define free will
@Ibn_Abdulaziz1405 so my atheism is part of your gods plan?
Religion poisons people's brains in a way that is just so frustrating to try to unravel. Keep up the work guys. You explain things in a way that most can not. 💙🇺🇲
I let my child grow up without religion, and did not expose him to it until high school when he took a world religion class. He is now trying to understand how people fall for the lies of religion. I try to explain people are brainwashed from birth.
Caller: "What if it's true"
What if it's not. The caller really should think about that more.
Also, what if some completely different religion/god is real? There's really no winning with that, you can't worship all gods just in case, because that's usually forbidden in at least the abrahamic religions.
You're describing Pascal's Wager
That what if game is a trap. What if it's worth it?? You might as well ask, "What if your god just took you straight to that wonderful afterlife and didn't torture you first?" After all, he's supposedly all powerful and he literally made the rules. The logical conclusion of that is he did it on purpose and wants the suffering. Or he doesn't exist. There really isn't an option for a loving kind god.
Yes, and it is up to the person who says it is true to show us the evidence. "What if it's true?" is an admission that it is not true.
The frustration is they’ll never know if there is no god and no after life.
"I'm not saying 'what if', but let's say that..."
That's still a 'what if'.
yeahhhh
What if, What if…..
- Scott Stapp 😂
@@darkowlmusic Is that the contemporary Christian pop song?
When I was a teenager there was a day when everyone else in my family was doing groceries and I was alone on our farm taking care of chores. I was in an empty barn, washing a milk tank, when I suddenly heard something that sounded like footsteps. First I thought I was just mishearing things, but then I heard them again. The sound was really clear, it was rubber boots on concrete floor. I wen't around checking things; Was it the pipes? No, running water didn't seem to effect the sound. Was someone else there with me? No, I checked every room. They were empty apart from a storage room that was so full of stuff that there was no space for a person there. And still it sounded like someone was running around and stopping just behind the corner to avoid coming to my view. I got scared and left the barn, standing outside and just listening to the foot steps. After panicking a little I decided that I absolutely had to find out what caused the sounds. I was sure they were coming from the milking stations so I started slowly walking towards the room. I was halfway there, when I heard the sound again, but it wasn't coming from the milking stations, it came from the full storage left of me. I turned around...
In the storage there was a pile of empty cardboard boxes. We had gotten the boxes from a friend who gave us old bread to feed to our animals. In the box at the top of the pile, there was a sparrow jumping around and eating crumbs.
Great parable
God sent that bird
@@mattjindrak God *was* that bird
@@privpi The bird is now your god!
🤔
I was born without a sense of smell. I can clearly remember being a young child and all my friends saying things like "I smell a skunk", or "wow, someone is growing mushrooms around here" (horse manure) and although I would plainly say, "yeah, I smell it too", but I was confused because everything is just air to me. Peer pressure confuses peoples minds.
It's simply wanting to fit in , rather than go against the crowd.
I was the same way with a minds eye. I always thought it was a figure of speach to say picture such and such in your mind. I had no idea people actually see and hear things in their heads. It's all black and silent in my head
My sense of smell is all jacked up from my allergies over the years. Some days I can smell a lil bit, most days little to nothing. I can sympathize with just going along with how others are reacting to smells. It’s one of those things you don’t notice until you don’t have one.
Growing mushrooms is an interesting euphemism that I had never heard before.
@@stonedsasquatchHow do you experience your memories?
Sometimes mind can conjure stuff up. A long time ago one day when I went to work and my boss walked right past me in the hall and at that point I would've 100% sworn under oath that he was there.. but when I went to look into his office he wasn't here.. and I was told he was on a trip hundreds of miles away. I had been very stressed and hadn't slept well but it's still feels crazy.. it was the point I realized how unreliable eye witness accounts can be.
@@digitalspecter I suffer from sleep paralysis quite often. I hear whispers, I feel movement on the sheets, I see stuff in the corner of my eyes... It's literallly my mind creating a dream using real life assets. And the most fucked up part is that it makes me "know" things. There was this time where whatever thing crawled up in my bed just curled on my feet and was "good", how can I know that if I only see the thing? Because it's dreamlike. So when people have experiences and they "know" it's true because of how it made them fell... yeah, just like dreams make you feel and know things that are not real.
@@Germanchu92Same with drugs. Psychedelics for example can be a great tool for understanding the subjectivity of reality, and learning things about your own mind, but some people who shouldn't take psychedelics but still do, often find themselves convinced of the "truth" or reality of ideas that are demonstrably false or completely contrary to OTHER "truthes" that a different person might perceive on the same substance. The universe is both out, and within. It's all in your head.
If eyewitness accounts actually meant something to religious people then why aren’t they all Mormons. The most recent apparent eyewitnesses all say Joseph smith was a prophet
Ages ago, when I was a teenager, I was washing my hair. I could hear my parents talking, blurred and distorted because of the water but very much voices.
I kept hearing them as I was getting dressed, and started to talk to them, on my way to the living room.
Just then…my parents got home. I had been entirely alone in the apartment and unknowingly talking to myself.
@@Germanchu92Saw a thing somewhere where a person had sleep paralysis visions of Batman sitting at the end of their bed, and they just went back to sleep because it wasn't any business of theirs what Batman was up to
Forrest made a very similar argument about sins of the father, I always say “if you put a jar of poison in front of a baby and say “don’t eat this or else” and when they inevitably eat it, because they don’t understand that it’s wrong, if they survive would it be fair to ground them and their descendants for life for all of time
It's worse because God is supposed to be all knowing. God knows what every human will do from before he creates humans.
@@101Mant
So he created people especially planning on torturing them.
Forest needs to chill! Poor guy is going to have a heart attack!
Also parent would be jailed in these enlightened times.
@@DQ_Mineyes that's why he gave them digestive system and mouth correct size for sacred fruit consumption.
They already had everlasting life they didn't need to eat to live
"They dreamed ideals but lived contradictions" is how I view the founding fathers in general.
Founding fathers is always funny to me when you consider the vast majority of them were barely even men, they were mostly children.
That's true of just slut anyone. If you look at the idea of what they want for themselves its usually decent. It's the moment of you look at what they want for anyone else it falls apart.
They had ideas of personal freedom, I wouldn't belittle that as Forrest seems to😢
Y'all should read "The Counter Revolution of 1776" by Gerald Horne. They revolted to PRESERVE slavery in N America.
@@dragonhealer7588If they believed in personal freedom, then they were hypocrites given that they preserved slavery and owned slaves themselves.
The promise of eternal reward is a great way to get people to accept suffering, without revolting. `Paul` claimed it was a good thing. That we should be happy when we suffer, because it builds character! Romans 5:1-5 - That implies that `God` could not create a reality with `righteous beings,` without suffering. Which is pretty spurious for an entity claimed to be essentially perfection itself. However, it is a great way to control people if you can convince them of it.
Brilliant response; suffer now because your reward is in heaven (while the crooks and frauds make millions and enjoy life).
the aspect of "crowd control" is also so transparent and obvious ESPECIALLY when you see the leadership echolon of every religion or cult living like kings its not even funny.
And I know you'd be even more perfect. I think the election is in 2030. You should run. For God. I just might vote for you.
It was Mother Theresa's entire ministry. And people still prop her up as a wonderful person. Just goes to show how effective the brainwashing of religion can be.
If character is built through suffering how much character does God have?
The 'probability' of life occuring is 1. It happened. End of story. How the hell would you ever calculate the odds? Against what other Possible outcome?
The theists arguing probability, generally have a grade 8 background in Math
And equally as probable as improbable.
@@Imperial-Socialistyet more advanced than every other apologist in that the probability argument is the only reasonable argument. It still falls flat, but it is reasonable.
@@kennybachman35 For US residents the probability is statistically higher than an 8th grade education- but a program could run respondents time of entry, GPS, country of origin, and comment history to verify my statement- based on other probabilities. Accurate reality modeling is all probability based on pattern recognition-correlation with verification for proof of causation.
Let's take their probability calculation for granted and say they have the correct denominator. The numerator is clearly incorrect as there is more than just one planet life might have arisen on.
This show has been a superb display of patience and thoughtful, mindful processing of ideas and beliefs. Thank you to these hosts as well as the honest interlocutors. Thank you so much for this high value content.
its a bunch of God is cruel and ass hole is all it is. even if its not real it can't prove a damned thing. why wate your life warching this shit.
I don't mean to be a jerk but watching this can be very addictive on the contrary.
18:30 I love how the caller was like: "yah. well.. I just wanted to throw my idea out there... so that people who don't want to critically think about things can have something to latch onto. I didn't expect the hosts to actually call out that I have no evidence or reason to believe it." NO SIR. You don't get to just declare something, and then do a mike drop and walk away with a win. That's not how this works.
That *is* how it works in Apologeticsland, though. Only claims count, evidence not wanted.
A god, who is therefore supposed to be perfect and able to do everything, could easily do what he wants without having to starve children or do evil things.
No matter how much mental gymnastics they do they will never find a solution, their imaginary friend is obligatory evil, he cannot be good. The simple existence of evil proves that it cannot be good.
Well god was bored so created his own horror movie; even sadistic gods must get their entertainment somehow.
True. if the stories of GOD were true, GOD would have to be mostly evil and sadistic.
It would be (like you said) very easy for me to imagine and make a perfect enjoyable place for my creation if I had any powers at all. It's not that hard to imagine even with my limited knowledge. With unlimited power and knowledge it would be even easier.
Why do you say its mental gymnastics and then reach a conclusion on the matter yourself? Have you researched this question extensively? Would you be open to any further discussion on the issue?
@Conan_the_rastafarian the mental gymnastics involve, among other things, rationalizing how a loving god gives children cancer, condones genocide, condones slavery , ect.
There is no magical being, we evolved like all other animals and we suffer and behave just like all other social animals. To believe in magic is not necessary or helpful.
Most Gods were not perfect or able to do everything though, the evolved version of superman god is quite new.
Look at Norse Mythology or Greek Mythology, they fucked up all the time and weren't really good at the shit they were supposed to do.
THere has been several interesting studies done around group psychology. One that I like is where you show a group a photo of a nature scene with sagebrush, prairie grass, sand etc, and you ask if anyone can see the mountain lion hidden in the scene(there is no mountain lion). Because you've mentioned a mountain lion, some people in a group will ALWAYS find the mountain lion(which isn't actually there). EVERYONE in the group will see it when someone points to a part of the picture and says "See, there's the tip of it's tail". But it was never in the photo.
In a world where everyone has a video camera in their pocket, how can someone even speculate that these unfounded claim might be true but never recorded?
Generative ADDITIVE AI (inserting generated video into real video to match photon and resolution characteristics).
Using ultra high resolution monitors/ Portable image generators that are upframed and synchronized one may use a cellphone to record the monitor/portable image generator to get false reality that has real meta-data. Easy to fake.Meta-data is hackable for the right price.
Ghosts and the poltergiest demons are afraid of cameras. They learned how to hide from them from bigfoot, who has famously only been caught by one. After that, he dedicated his 700-year lifespan to learning how to avoid moment capture technology and teach other cryptids to do the same.
1:15-3:28 Forrest just mic dropped on the American myth - just brilliant ❤
Hmm. Not really. I like Forrest the scientist, and don’t mind Forrest the philosophy enthusiast. Not so keen on Forrest the social historian. Caricature at best.
@mikedonoghues4018 Well, what did he say that was wrong, exactly? His points were pretty straight forward.
@richyrich6099 he said things that don't sit well with people indoctrinated with American exceptionalism.
Why dont they ever leave if its so bad?
@@richyrich6099all those points and yet he’s still sitting in America privileged as ever
I used to be just like Alexander until I read the old testament as an adult and had a very Forrest-like reaction to it. The whole thing unraveled like a sweater and now I'm here, happier than ever. I think Alex was one of the best callers I've heard come on. Everyone gets a star in my book for being brave enough to call, but he was also respectful, thoughtful, and willing to admit that he didn't know everything, and willing to let his gut emotions over the support of slavery show.
Alexander saying “I don’t know “ may be one of the most honest moments I’ve heard on shows like this.
And then pressing right on with his original claim is one of the most dishonest moments.
Thanks!
I'll never tire of Forrest coming up with some amazing nonsense in lieu of the caller home state, and then seeming genuinely bewildered by his own words. He's awesome... :3
Alexander's brain right around the 1 hour mark:
"I DON'T WANNA DIE FOREVER! I DON'T WANNA DIE FOREVER! I DON'T WANNA DIE FOREVER!"
Whenever i hear this i ask people
do you remember being born? do you remember anything before you were born?
No, then why would you know anything after death then?
I.... I have never heard an American being so honest about both the history and the present USA as Forrest was there.
That is unusual.
Im gunna take a leap and assume you are not American. If that's the case, we are not all absurdly asinine. We just have the loudest idiots among our population.
Yes so refreshing and so true. Americans have a very effective brainwashing system leading them to believe their country is the best without knowing ANYTHING about the rest of the world
You see it in more left leaning circles among Americans.
Unfortunately our politics is so twisted that it only runs from fascist to centrists in power.
At most among prominent media you get some centrist lib shit.
This reminds me of when I was in high school and we had to build a catapult and were told explicitly to not build a trebuchet. We asked what a trebuchet was and the teacher said don't worry just build a catapult. Wouldn't you know it we accidentally built a trebuchet.
I'm sorry, but what exactly was the context of having to build a *catapult?*
@@privpi physics class
@@privpioh sorry, this was in 1844
I’m usually way too impatient to listen to an argument for this long, but this one was well worth it. Great job guys!
That guy was really chill, I hope he calls back! I know some people are annoyed with some of the stuff he said but at the end of the day it seems like he’s arguing in good faith & genuinely trying to figure out what he believes. We’ve all gotta start somewhere
Yes. I looked at many, many things before the light came on.
I was definitely expecting him to blow up when Forrest starting talking about how America has always historically sucked, was pleasantly surprised he actually just seemed to take it on the chin.
Would be better if he actually engaged with it, but Ill take not dying on that hill as better than most callers would do.
@@adaephon- Apparently, he has the privilege to not really care. He likes his American mythology, likely similar to how he likes his Christian mythology. And apparently, he doesn't really care how European colonizers, the U.S., Christianity, or many Christians and Christian organizations have unduly harmed people.
When confronted with the gen-o-side and brutal chattel slavery of the early U.S., he suggested that things were better then than today - outside of the "personal misconduct" of some of the "Founding Fathers" (when gen-o-side and chattel slavery were systemic - not just personal misconduct). I won't guess that he thinks that marginalized people should be much worse off than they are today. But it seems pretty clear that he doesn't really care about marginalized people being mistreated today or in past generations.
I hear that from a lot of yt Americans who idealize the past, when things were much, much worse for marginalized people. They may even half-heartedly say that the past mistreatment was wrong, but ultimately they prefer their idealized version of the past and they think things are worse today based upon their personal hang ups (e.g., divorce rates - as if women locked in bad and even abusive marriages was better, impoliteness - as if gen-o-side, slavery, racial terrorism, homophobia, etc. were polite, "things have gone too far in favor of women and/or blk people," etc.).
He was far more open to new ideas and challenging his beliefs than a lot of the people who call in.
I really REALLY like Forrest & Jesse. Excellent presenters and hosts. More please!
What if what if what if... "What if I'm wrong" is the one What if that Alexander never considered
1:05:01 I needed this. I've been spiraling a bit with an existential crisis and this helped me ground a bit more in reality.
I love how respectful the end of this was. I hope the caller is doing alright. It definitely seems like he’s been questioning his faith and from someone who’s been there, I know how deep that can cut sometimes. No matter what his beliefs are now, I hope you’re doing alright, man. And it’ll be okay.
I feel for this caller. He seems very genuine and I hope he finds some truth in his life.
One thing that always bothers me is people saying something is a 50/50 thing when it very clearly isnt.
Even beyond the idea of false dichotomies, its not a 50/50 thing of whether someone is accurately reporting a supernatural phenomenon.
If i got on a basketball court with Lebron James and said that I won in a one on one played to the end its 50/50 in the sense that I either won or I didn't, but there is absolutely not 50/50 odds that I won or didnt. My win, like all these supernatural reports, is completely imaginary.
No it's not
I have never seen anyone break down exactly what I think/feel on a subject as thoroughly as Forrest did here. I'm actually amazed
If god has a plan for humanity and is perfect in every way, why has he screwed up everything he touches?
Yes, why? So much for, "...all men are created equal..."
Yep, how's it possible for an all perfect god to create imperfect people
Because he didn’t want zombies duh 😂😂😂
@@guitarplyr327 No, he wanted idiots he could abuse.
@@guitarplyr327Jesus was a zombie right? In fact there are many zombies in the bible. The Christian God seems to have no problem with zombies.
In this age where everyone and their dog is carrying a full media studio in their pocket, how are they not capturing these things in camera? 13:29
Or if they do catch it, it's either faked or in such a poor quality that you cannot discern what you are looking at. In most cases without fail you'll have people say "See! I knew I was right!"
"Live in poverty and illness your whole life, we'll make it up to you after you die". Talk about the long con!
All whilst the Popes lived lives of debauchery, luxury and gluttony and any other sin they could come up with. The most foul con ever inflicted on humanity and it’s still allowed. 🥺
ill never bet my 'What Is' against a 'What If'.
"What if" is a wonderful place to start formulating a hypothesis. But it's a terrible place from which to base a worldview.
If I had wheels, I'd be a wagon.
If "ifs" and "buts" were candies and nuts, we'd all have a jolly, fine Christmas.
@@thedeebo410 I haven't heard that in so long, so thank you
46:16 it says in the Bible its a mango. God directly says "if man eat, manGO.
Actually it says that in the manga
"You either believe all this shit or you dont, and you already dont"
Now THAT is bars🔥
'What If It's All Worth It in Heaven?'
Pfft, no.
Everyone is suddenly rendered as Brother and Sister there. The institution and practice of marriage no longer exists. For the sake of an argument, let me put it this way: a happy married couple living with each other in romantic, sexual and marital context wouldn't be allowed to be with each other the way _they_ wanted to be with each other. And that's just a possible example I could bring to mind.
I feel that a lot of folks here on the athiest side get so caught up in being right that they leave their empathy behind. Forrest and Jesse have my infinite respect for so much, but their ability to treat someone with kindness when other athiests might blow up at them brings that respect to another level. This is what a role-model looks like.
first thing i notice about this caller... around the 10-12 minute mark... After Jesse described a HORRIFIC event in his OWN PERSONAL LIFE, the callers reaction was to laugh, and ask "well what if you were there and you SAW all that happen?"
SO DISRESPECTFUL...
his response should have been something to the affect of "wow man, I'm so sorry to hear that happened..."
Full respect to Forest and the other host for telling the real truth about the USA and the founding fathers.
For sure. The way we revere them is crazy considering that most of them were frat bro aged children, many with slaves.
Just because you don’t know the explanation doesn’t mean the supernatural exists. Alex says he thinks 90% of the supernatural experiences out there are bs but what is his test to determine the other 10% are not?
His brain started rejecting the logic at the end kept trying to find an exit ramp to the logic
So many good points, I'm loving this!! 👏🏼
I'm a big fan of puzzle games, puzzles in games etc. and have solved many.
A lot of the time I may find myself stuck, unable to continue with the current situation. Perhaps there's a hidden switch nearby that opens the next passageway and I'm missing it. I don't assume "this puzzle must be impossible, there's no way to complete it"
Once I find the answer, it's usually something like "oh wow, how did I miss that?" and I become aware of new possibilities in other games.
Same thing in real life situations, humans have come up with crazy explanations for how lightning works. It was the gods, Zeus or whoever.
Then upon logical investigation, we found the answer. If I myself were to see someone crawling up a wall, I would first think that maybe my mind was tricking me, maybe I was tired or asleep having a vivid dream. Or maybe someone slipped a drug in my drink or something like that. I wouldn't assume any kind of supernatural thing (although I also wouldn't reject that if it turned out to have some way to show the supernatural explanation to be possible)... basically just make no assumptions at all, assuming it was God or something can only be willful ignorance of the possibilities.
A divine deity is "technically" on the chart for possibilities, and I say that tentatively, but until it's shown to be true it will never be the conclusion.
When Alex talked about poor starved people entering the gates of heaven saying “Wow”…all I could think of was that darned Christian rule where these folks that are worried about where a morsel of food might come from, would have to first accept Jesus into their hearts etc etc. Christianity kinda teaches that most of these poor wretches will end up in hell and torment forever. Such is the great love of their god.
I'm 13 minutes into the video and i feel like the caller has just been repeating the same hypothetical over and over again with slight variations. Can we please move on or do we need to go over it one more time?
"What if all these totally unsubstantiated stories actually happened?"
It is really difficult to stay patient with people doing mental gymnastics to keep believing in the bible and god. I used to be one of them and have literally apologized to friends of mine who used to have these conversations with me. FWIW, these conversations do make an incremental difference and will help free people like Alexander from their dogmatic prisons someday.
Wish I found this show at a younger age
1:17:02
I definitely appreciate the serious conversations more than the heated disrespectful arguments.
It’s difficult to respond to hypothetical situations without being in the environment where they occur. It might be that deciding that witnessing an event is sufficient for belief leaves you open to miss explanations that are more suitable. It would probably be more useful to have a principle of doubt and investigation so you aren’t duped by clever people trying to fool you.
Jesse voice is awesome 😊😊
@@beckyzehms2868 i was just thinking the exact same
RIGHT ON YOU GUYS! Someone is telling it like it is! Forrest and co host, you guys are a breath of a fresh air.
“…the world is a mystery…” …and I’d rather keep it a mystery instead gravitating towards the supernatural to try to explain it
Right there with Jesse, and by default Alexander. I'll never forget the moment I realised I was a heretic that had created my own faith, which disagreed with the religion I grew up believing. Forced me to further realise what that meant, rationally.
About the tornado in the junk yard... It would be a good example of evolution, if junk had the property of bonding(in predictable and 'sometimes' stable ways) to other pieces of junk.
One fun thing about lie detectors, they're actually *very* effective, just not at detecting lies. They're barely more than a prop.
The interviewer can be detached and neutral, or put themselves against the machine (the enemy of my enemy is my...). They can form a connection with you by bantering during the setup, or even during the interview. They can make physical contact if you're the sort that feels relaxed and connected by this (adjusting the leads, for example). They can use body language (or even their words) to make you feel like they do or do not believe you so as to encourage you to continue to speak.
Once you are back in the formal interrogation you'll be told you "didn't do very well" or "your answers will all over the place" or that you're "not a very good liar" and your body "gives strong signals".
They'll say it can only help you because if you pass you'll convince them, and if you fail it can't be used against you. But your words will be used against you in the interrogation room, and your words there will be used in court, so ultimately they'll still hang you based on what you said in the polygraph interview without actually using the polygraph results.
Talk to a lawyer, not the police. Even if you aren't the subject of an investigation, if you're in the police station, you are there for a reason. Get a lawyer. Talk to the lawyer. The lawyer is the closest thing you have to someone that isn't an enemy.
When I was about 5 years old, an adult came into our house in a shocked and agitated state and described a terrible and fatal accident they had just witnessed very nearby. I internalized and dramatized and visualized the event so clearly in my child's mind, that I was also traumatized and would replay the incident in my mind for many decades, until it finally came up in conversation with my family. I believed I had witnessed the event. I could see it in my mind. I described it just like it had happened. But, I was NOT there, I was simply imprinted upon by the emotions of the adult who related the event. After a lifetime of "experiencing" the event in my mind and body, it was a new shock to come to terms with how incorrect my belief was around this event. The self-inflicted torture had repeated unbidden for decades, and it wasn't even mine to carry. It wasn't my truth. It was given to me through contact with another when I was open and impressionable. The mind is a tricky little machine.
A truth is always supported by other truths.
A truth considered in isolation, can not be distinguised from a lie.
So many bots already 😬😬
Jesse’s line of “he’s already making his own bible” is profound af
I see that in so many believers in my life who are also better than the god they believe in.
Don’t get me wrong, I prefer it when they get rid of some of the problematic and harmful parts of their faith but then, they might as well ditch the whole thing.
Good call 🙌✨
(Two emojis at the end as a shoutout to the bots)
👋🥸💉🤡👍
Its so hard for people who are brainwashed into religion to change their mind even if they agree with your points, they'll still jump through hoops and move the goal post to believe what they already believe
I have a What-If for Alexander: What if substantial evidence came along that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the universe was created by a god. It has changed the way scientists all over the world think about the universe. Here's the catch, the evidence proves that the god who created the universe was Ra, the Egyptian God of the Sun. Would Alexander abandon Christianity entirely and go worship Ra instead? How many Christians will completely abandon Christianity to do the same?
I once heard a scary scratching noise on my front door but upon opening the door beheld nothing. Hearing it again I investigated further to find one of the trees in my landscaping was brushing against the gutter.
Once upon a midnight dreary...
Wow - when worlds collide! My atheist community smashes into my Ginny Di/cosplay/D&D community!
Kinda have a thing for ginny d, not even gonna pretend
Skipping the prayer ad before this starts makes me hsppy.
“Ignorance is not the same as evidence” ouuuuu🔥🔥 awesome
Preach it Brother Forrest!
An actual "all knowing" god would take one look at the bible and say "hell no".
Alexander sounds like a guy at the edge of deconversion, has spotted the problems and evils of christianity but is too afraid, yet, to take the final step.
You are both right, he is better than his god.
He really does sound like he's on the right track. Hopefully he'll get there soon!
Let me pose a question to this dude or people like him...
If Zach is really doing what he says he is, why does he have a museum full of the objects? What properties of glass keep the bad energy under control?
And would you go to a museum filled with radioactive material? Or is it ethical to run one as an attraction?
It doesn't make sense. And I get it. I watched the documentaries and all. So why is a piece of the house that's soooo evil that it "permanently damaged his vision" just sitting there for anyone to take a picture next to?
I get it. That stuff is weirdly interesting. "How did these bricks and boards go flying? I'm struggling to find a rational explanation."
But that's if you take it on face value that they're telling you the truth and not running a multi-million dollar business with the pure interest in making money under the illusion of "looking for the truth."
That's why I absolutely dislike that Skinwalker Ranch show. "Real Scientists doing science and going 'wooooah' is compelling stuff, wouldn't you say?"
Me, personally? I wouldn't. Because the "science" is sketchy as all getout.
"The world is a mystery" sounds a lot like "I don't want to understand the world" to me. Where would modern medicine be if people said "The human body is a mystery" and left it at that?
I like the car example, spectacular !
Ignorance’s is not the same as evidence. Beautiful quote Forrest.
Keep asking question, Alexander.
Growing up I was scared to do so because I didn't want to go to hell. But there was so much that didn't make sense to me, I couldn't help it.
Keep pulling on threads and you'll either be more assured of your position or you'll find that your position doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Either option is better than blind faith.
Human senses can be INCREDIBLY dishonest when filtered through our minds.
Forrest is my man crush …. He is awesome
1:13 no it is not, Scandinavia Danmark 🇩🇰 is the greatest country in the universe.....
@@hjalmarolethorchristensen9761 with the way they have their social programs set up. Most def top tier nation in the world
I've heard Iceland 🇮🇸 lol
@@haydensanford1987 yes island too, it was a Danish colonie... Still alot Danish..... Norway and Sweden too... Scandinavia is the bedst,.... greetings from Skandinavia Danmark 🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰🇩🇰
@@2for99cents yes, and thank you,...but it is True,...this is a very peaceful place, we have our problems,.but Scandinavia is one of the greatest places to live,...we got high taxes, but what we get for that,.. its not that bad....it is actually Great....whit medical health care, social care, etc....it gives peace of mind...and happiness 😉
@@hjalmarolethorchristensen9761 stop making us Americans jealous 😂
43 min in, and damn... What a dude.
Hope it goes all the way.
Not just starving kids or kids getting cancer, and other horrible diseases, but this sadistic god, if you want to believe he is real, you'd have to also accept that he intentionally designed an entire ecosystem that feeds off other life, some in very brutal ways, if you've ever watched sharks, lions, snakes, etc, feed.....and humans are at times dinner too.
Forrest is SO good.
❤
Alexander described scenes from the movie "The Exorcist" in his first "what if" as things that have been reputed to have really happened.
1 ANGEL KILLED 185OOO PEOPLE IN ONE NIGHT....THE ARMY OF SOME KING....
AND YET THERE ARE NEVER ANY ABOUT WHEN CHILDREN GET ABDUCTED/MURDERED....
That was a nice call. Alexander is definitely a better person than his god.
What if... the email I just received is from a real Nigerian prince?
Nothing kills the idea of Free Will more than an Omniscient god. If your every choice is known eons in advance, then your free will is no less an illusion than that of a character in a book.
The truly cruel thing about the God's will idea is that it convinces those starving to death that God can help them. Then God doesn't help and they are praying and praying everyday to understand why they are being punished. Alexander would have a lot of hard work to do if God was starving him.
The thing that this caller is woefully overlooking is that, in the scenario that this eternal land of bliss or whatever actually exists, it effectively makes life meaningless, especially for people who just come here to get brutally wiped out in the worst ways possible. Why not just *not* be born? That makes infinitely more sense
Some people just can't let go
I'm with Terry Pratchett on this one, if there is a creator it is our duty to show to it that we are their moral superior.
PS on evolution, it is the best supported theory in all of science. If there is something in science that we can say we know 100% it is evolution.
When it comes to proving the supernatural (exorcisms ,Ouija boards I believe were mentioned in this call) James Randi is the best example I can think of to help somebody understand that we purely have no evidence of these things. I never really had any reason to believe in the supernatural but learning about James Randi and how hard he worked to combat these things took any lingering suspicion from me. It’s easier to understand that brains do crazy things and memories aren’t reliable in the sense that we typically think they are. I think learning about JREF is the most down to earth way to explain supernatural phenomenon and I hope more people can use that to their benefit.
I continued to believe for a while despite doubts because I convinced myself that believing wasn't hurting me or anyone else, that I wasn't missing out on anything, that I was happier believing God exists and loves me even if there's nothing (I just dismissed the possibility of a different God because I figured they had no greater chance of existing than the god I believed in).
Then I realized that my religion had been hurting me. I was a closeted pansexual who spent countless hours praying to God to take away my 'confusion'. I missed out on possible relationships because I was afraid God would be angry and punish me. I repeated hurtful rhetoric to others (e.g. love the sinner hate the sin). I still haven't come out to my mom because it would cause her great distress. There are no non-religious reasons to reject LGBTQ+ rights or to hate yourself for being queer.
If you're a Christian that does live and accept LGBTQ+ rights, great! I made that change first, based on biblical interpretations. But why would a loving God allow his word to be used to hurt so many people?
Also, you can think of any other positions in your life that are based solely on your religion? Are there people being hurt by your beliefs, attitudes, politics, etc, for no other reason than your religious bias?
45:19 "at me?!" 😂 bless your heart lol
As someone who's been a part of the atheist and secular humanist movement for decades at this point, and a fan of Forrest, I really wish he wouldn't refer to the modern United States of America as a "living nightmare" for anyone who isn't a 'rich, able-bodied heterosexual cisgender white man'. For all the flaws in the history of our country, there is truly no place I would choose to be born instead, as a black man. I would not want to be born in Europe, or in Africa, or in the Middle East, or in Asia, or in South America. This country, for all her flaws, is the closest thing the world has ever known to the land you have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I've lived it, and you live it, and I feel my heart ache for the people born in places like North Korea and Eritrea who have never known freedom. For any Americans who read this, just think about what your life would be like if you were born in a real dictatorship, like those places I just mentioned, and feel grateful to be born here in the USA.
I am elderly, disabled , low income and homeless. I grew up middle class including college. America has let me down. I would rather live in Scandinavia at this point. At least I’d be housed
Youre entire point is true ONLY if you ignore all the countries that have a better track record on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Spoken like someone unaware of their privilege
@@thejabberwocky2819 Explain please. Sounds you’re bitter and jealous.
@@Black-White-BW1 Whats to explain? "X place is worse than Y place" doesn't make Y place not a nightmare to live in. It's just pathetic whataboutism
Gonna have to Citation needed Forests response at 2:28
Is he talking about Sally Hemings?
She and her son would later accompany Jefferson on his diplomatic tours in France so I can assure you she was not “chained in the basement”
"Chained in the basement" is hyperbole, but (going off Wikipedia) the diplomatic tours she accompanied Jefferson on were from when she was 14 to 16. She was impregnated (to put it lightly) by 44 y/o Jefferson during that time. A 16 y/o girl, enslaved and abused from birth, pregnant, choosing not to pursue freedom in France rather than stay with the guy who also owned her entire family back in America is hardly a defense. Her quarters weren't a basement, but they were seemingly underneath the south terrace (because there were multiple terraces on the slave plantation, so it has to be specified).
Point being, laying out the whole story doesn't help much and takes a lot of time to lay out when the details of Jefferson SA-ing his child slave aren't relevant. The point is he had a child slave he owned and abused for her entire life, holding her extended family hostage as slaves. Him keeping her quarters beneath a terrace rather than in an explicit basement and her not literally being in chains her entire life doesn't change that.
Most people, when they hear a loud voice around them, look around for the speaker, they do not automatically assume it's a deity. When he's talking about exorcists witnessing people levitating off the bed 6', he's talking about what he's witnessed in movies that are "based on true events". These events never happened the way he described. People talking in "unknown languages" were talking in gibberish because they were mentally ill or suffering from epileptic seizures. Funny how as neuroscience has developed, possessions have decreased.
30:36 coder here.
This analogy of same code being used in multiple places is wrong.
Programming has this concept called "Inheritance". The most basic example is - you need to program a bunch of shapes and have all of them be able to calculate their area and perimeter.
You can make a copy of same function for every shape, but then you notice that function name "GetArea" clashes with another function name and you want to change it to "GetShspeArea". And now you have to revisit every individual shape and there are some other shapes other coders added so you miss them because you didn't know they existed and now the program starts to break.
Or you can bake an abstract class "Shape". Put shared functions into it. And make individual shape classes it's descendants so they inherit this same function.
It is all much more nuanced and complicated than this, but this is just a small demonstration. So if you examine the good code you will easily be able to Dell if those diverse classes are derived from one another or they just happen to have similar but in actuality separate features.
Code analogies fail so many ways it's really frustrating that they keep getting brought up. One of my favorite counters is that the entire modern "AI"/ChatGPT boom is built off statistical modeling and evolution. Designing smart programs is really hard, so people tried to just design a program that can chew up a ton of data to come up with probably correct answers. It works surprisingly well, but it's also really inefficient and complex and not designed in the slightest outside of its starting parameters. No human could write ChatGPT in a million years, but humans could write the rules that could generate ChatGPT after countless iterations and churning through all text ever written over months of processor time on the most powerful computers attainable.
Forming an analogy from here, the "design" from God would in the rules that govern reality and cosmology. Though this gets kinda nutty to follow through on because it took us humans many attempts to reach ChatGPT 4 which, if extended to the analogy to "designed reality", means there were prior realities that were tossed away for not being up to snuff or were created only to be iterated upon. And we have no idea if we're in ChatGPT 1, ChatGPT 4, or ChatGPT final. Sure, tossing out whole universes of sentient life for being bad is kinda messed up to us, but that's basically what God is described as doing with the flood.
Thinking about all the ways theistic arguments fails always gets me rambling, lol.