Designing Depth in the "Forever Fighting Game" (2XKO Developer Interview)
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2024
- Part of a series of interviews I recorded during EVO Japan 2024. This one's with Shaun Rivera aka. Unconkable, game director for 2XKO.
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#FGC #Sajam #EVOjapan2024 #2XKO - Ігри
That opening question was a banger. Thanks for doing these.
0:26 The hypocrisy in the FGC is unbelivable. EVERBODY in the community ALL pride themselves so much with their mantra " In FGs, when you lose it's your fault ! you can't blamme others ! My game is hard ! i'm a real manly video game player ! stop crying and get gud ! " EVEN THOUGH THEY SHOUT THIS NIGHT AND DAY; THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY to complain/downplay their characters to the devs on twitter and are on their knee BEGGIND for nerf/buffs.
League community is by no means better but holy fuck FGC need to look in the mirror.
Can't wait to humble 90% of them after i play 1 month at the game.
0:26 The hypocrisy in the FGC is unbelivable. EVERBODY in the community ALL pride themselves so much with their mantra " In FGs, when you lose it's your fault ! you can't blamme others ! My game is hard ! i'm a real manly video game player ! stop crying and get gud ! " EVEN THOUGH THEY SHOUT THIS NIGHT AND DAY; THEY HAVE THE AUDACITY to complain/downplay their characters to the devs on twitter and are on their knee BEGGIND for nerf/buffs.
League community is by no means better but holy fuck FGC need to look in the mirror.
Can't wait to humble 90% of them after i play 1 month at the game.
Kraxk!
I was also wondering who he was! That's important to know before he starts answering questions.
Sajam really is interviewing the entire 2XKO team. Thanks for another banger video, amazing work as always. You da GOAT.
I think the only big feedback I can really give right now is the lack of an announcer. I'm sure they have an annoucner in their current in office build or is going to have one. But that ear candy is what it's really missing.
Assuming there is an announcer in the final build I would LOVE (and expect) there to be announcer packs.
Lemme have Rengar call me out for my wack ass combo
@@chrishoben8270 Dude I want Rengar in the game so bad. I'm on copium right now that he will be the first Ixtal rep.
I couldn't put my finger on it, but yep y ou're right. Ideally I would love to see the announcer from LoL, with every single champion (that can talk) as dlc lol
I’ve never really seen Sajam do interviews but he came prepared and all of these have been a treat. Real perfersional
Conk is so likable.
These interviews have been really cool. Thanks Sajam!
These interviews are awesome
Wonderful interview and fantastic questions. Thanks to you both!
Those interviews are actually getting me pretty hyped. The 2XKO team really feel like a bunch of people that just love what they are doing, and want player to love their product and have a great time. You also come up with great questions. Thanks Sajam.
loving these interviews, they're absolutely amazing
The feedback question reminds me of the phrase "Be descriptive, not prescriptive"
Great interview. Got me hype ❤
What’s funny about bringing up the 2v2, I remember seeing comments about the Tag mode in MK9 saying the same stuff. I saw one from someone saying they knew ONE combo for scorpion but their friend knew more so they would get tagged in and their dopamine would peak and eventually they ended up playing FGs themselves.
The questions were really insightful and he answered incredibly well. Good job Sajam.
Really liking this short but insightful interviews
So glad the devs are reaching out to the community more this year! and ty Sajam for running these and getting involved. I’m hyped to see where this game goes
Thanx for all these interviews man i am literally having sleepless nights thinking about 2XKO cant wait to have my hands on this
I'm so hype. Can't wait for evo
These were some really good questions. I honestly can't wait until they reveal more characters.
You're a very gifted interviewer Sajam. Great questions and great listening and leading the interview.
I gotta start saying "skill delta"
Really good insights. Especially re onboarding people to fighting games. My kid is vaguely interested, but playing together is either me going easy on her (which she can tell), or her getting stomped. Co-op is a nice way to go, we'll definitely be playing this.
Thank you for having the interview retread the old "good player feedback is like going to the doctor" stuff, it is _evergreen_
Fantastic interview, love getting a peak behind the curtain
best interview so far
love it, this game really seems like it's in the best hands it could be :)
sajam is doing gods work for 2xko, thank you for all of these interviews and information!!
Seems like a really cracking good team they have working on this game. And with the time and commitment to community feedback they have it really does have potential to be something cool. I'm cautiously optimistic that they might just pull it off. Best game ever? I don't know about that, but a co-op fighting game that is beginner friendly and still fun to play at a high level would be huge. We all definitely have friends who think we are weirdos for playing fighting games and this might just be a good way to turn them to our color. XD
Just want to take a second to appreciate how high quality these interviews are. Asking questions seems pretty simple, but having a series of poignant questions that flow well together is difficult. We get a lot of good information without awkward pauses or shifts. Awesome job!
this 2v2 stuffs so cool only found out about it recelty, I started playing fighting games with SF6 so I'm looking forward to 2XKO for sure
Shaun is my fav in 2ko team.
He cannot be conked (also first not counting the 2 spam bots)
I really want to see them add level 3 supers.
Listening to someone give you all the right answers is a different type of fear
God let this game cook
skill. delta.
we got it, boys. we figured it out.
Gamers making games for Gamers
I just want to see my fave champ Brand and Leona in the game😅 But I could settle for Vi, Zed and Lee Sin to be added soon😁
Dude speaks japanese what a badass
can someone confirm if katarina will be in the main roster cuz we saw her in the first build of the game when it was 1v1 then we never saw her again plz add my main katarina plzzz 😢😢
I'm not sure if I like the fuse system... A more straightforward mechanic like "x-factor" creates this really epic/tense moments on every match that I fell is still missing on 2XKO.
Was that first response about Splatoon?
I know people are going to get mad at me. But I really hope they have champions with install supers. I think that would really add to the hype saves between me and a friend.
Ekko has an install super, and perhaps Illaoi as well if you take hers into consideration.
Dude I can't wait for a show match with like Sonic Fox plus their V-Tuber partner winning tournaments xD
Is that the same Tekken tag 1 Unconkable?
killer journalism my man
Is there a date for beta
Q4 2024
Only thing im worried about is the pricing model for cosmetics. Valorant is striaght up ridiculous and predatory. I really hope im able to buy every skin I'd like at a reasonable price
Odds are high you're buying characters as well. The League of Legends model makes more sense for fighting games than for MOBAs tbh.
If they're anything like league, you'll be able to unlock chars just by playing
@@zen7ry League and valorant let you buy characters or unlock them by playing starting you off with a small pool of simpler characters
Considering its free, you're probably gonna have to shell out a bit for skins. The average league skin nowadays is about $10 for a model swap + new vfx. Straight up model swaps cost about $6. I could see that translating to about $6 for most skins and $10+ for a skin that comes with a new ultimate and taunt animations or something.
Fingers crossed there's at least a free skin/pallet/currency/etc. for dedication to a character.
I absolutely wouldn't be surprised at $30+ skins, which is unfortunate
hope they dont use vanguard on 2XKO
shame these were recorded before the important question on if this game is going run Vanguard
Unlikely as it is projected to simultaneously launch on PC and both consoles with crossplay. And my understanding is that game guard is pc only.
@@steffanhymer1285 you have much, much more faith in riot games then I ever could admittedly lol
My other concern is that basically his answer for designing depth was that sometimes the combos are kind of hard (partial charge button, links) which is kind of dodging the question. The combos are not what makes the game have long-term depth or staying power unless it's a particularly interesting combo system with some sort of resource management. I was hoping he would describe things about the kits or something. I'm honestly a little bit worried the game is going to be a bunch of characters with pretty simple kits and not much to learn past the surface level and just improving your neutral a bit or guessing better than your opponents.
TBF sajam starts that off mentioning the one-button specials so it makes sense he approached it from that angle.
What game are you looking at that is making you worry about that? It's a tag game, and just from that I can't think of a single tag game that is too shallow. They would have to go out of their way to make a tag game with active switching not deep. And then you look at every single character and they each have open ended mechanics like ekko rewind, illaoi tentacles and even darius bleed. Can you give one example of what is worrying you?
The paradox is that any company that calls their game a "forever game" actually made one with an expiration date. We can still play Street Fighter II 30 years later, but once the servers go away for most of Riot's games, they're gone forever. I have yet to see evidence that this game will be allowed to exist without an internet connection to their servers.
He touches on that you can play 2XKO either as a by yourself solo queue thing or with a friend, but I don't get it. Is there gonna be a mode where you control both characters or are you just randomly getting paired with people online? Because if you get paired with someone, you have to rely on them for assists which means that you aren't in control of your own setups.
I think the decision to make assists of the character controlled by the player who uses the character doesn't work very well. The bread and butter of tag fighters is learning timings for assist call in setups either on oki or in neutral situations you want to create. This is a type of interaction you want to be consistent and have the timing down for, not something you want to have to call out to your friend mid-match. It's just going to be frustrating if you're trying to do an oki setup and your partner tags at the wrong time or something. It feels similar to needing your friend to hit the 4th button in your combo for you, ya know? Just seems jank. I get why it's this way because otherwise you and your friend basically aren't playing at the same time at all, but this just makes it feel like using assists on oki or consistently is going to be inconsistent and unfun.
You can play 2XKO controlling both characters at once. This is what he means by saying 1v2 or 1v1 or 2v2. Also in the game you are calling the assists from what I know, but your friend has to burst you out.
@@Goboxel I see I see.
@@pokecole37 Looks like I was wrong and it's another player calling the assist. Sorry for spreading misinformation in the internet. The thing about you being playing solo is true though.
@@Goboxel Yeah, Sajam mentioned in the gameplay videos from a few days ago, in the current build your buddy has to use assist and burst, but the player in control is the one that can tag.
I just hope they don't bring the Skin and multiple currencies from their other games. I'd rather just pay for the game rather than deal with predatory cash shops
I’m the opposite, those “predatory” cash shops that you don’t need to purchase to play the game on a functional level is what allows those games to be free to play. A skin could be 5 to 10 bucks but the game is free. It’s better than the alternative. Every modern fighting game makes you pay for skins and characters PLUS the game.
I love the way riot does their f2p stuff. you won't miss out on content by not paying. fighting game season passes are ridiculous and I have no idea how they are still the market standard
Sajam is so short lol
2xko ''developer'' paycheck stealer interview
His response to the first question is alarming.
"When someone's slightly better than you, especially in a fighting game, you wanna feel like you have a little bit of a chance, and sometimes that can come in: hey you landed a special; hey you landed a small combo; maybe you took a round, you know, out of many; maybe even you took a match - and like giving a player just that little bit of inspiration, there's a number of tactics, that could be the difference between them turning, or being like yeah actually let me just play one more, actually oh I wanna learn this, I wanna get a little better at this thing. Definitely seen it where that's not the case, and people like they feel like oh I'm bad at this game, this is not for me, and so it's pretty tricky."
He's literally contradicting himself. The definition of "better" is "you win" and yet he's saying "let the better player not win sometimes," which is the definition of a party game; add luck into the equation so that player skill has less of an impact on the outcome of the game.
I feel like there's this false relationship between competitive integrity and a game's slow death. Fantasy Strike is giga dead, and it's the easiest fighting game, and its free to play. Making your game easier is not the solution to getting new players to play it. Making your game more skill-focused will not cause your game to die out.
This is the game director for 2XKO? This should be a red flag.
Oh yeah, and the REAL solution is matchmaking. Make the game as deep as possible, then have a matchmaking mode that pairs you against people of the same skill level. Try to get them to 50% win rate at all times, and move their rank according to how they perform.
Someone being slightly better than you could mean they win 55% of the games between the two of you. Him saying that you should get a little combo or maybe a single game is not stomping on the way we expect skill to manifest.
@@auri4061 That's not competitive integrity. Competitive integrity is the better player wins, not the better players wins more often.
I feel like I should also say this - humans are very complex beings, so it's very easy for the "better" player to change over time. That's why it's possible for a game to have competitive integrity and for players to go back and forth.
@@Moqlnkn
I think you're talking about being better overall and I'm talking about being better in moments.
A slightly better player should win a set. A slightly better player should not win every interaction or even every game. People can slip up, be adapted to, be weak in an area their opponent is strong in.
Do you think competitive integrity is violated if someone you're teaching the game to lands a combo on you? No, I'd assume you're proud, because for just a moment they played better than you. Like you said, it changes all the time. And as they improve they will have more moments where they play better than you, but you will still have more of those moments, win the set, still be better *overall*. (If you don't get outpaced that is.)
@@auri4061 Games are made up of moments. Winning one game and winning one hundred games is the same in a game with competitive integrity, not accounting for the fatigue of the players. Of course, if you narrow it all the way down and say "whoever wins this mixup is the winner of the tournament," then it's basically impossible to get competitive integrity, which is why we don't do that.
Being hit doesn't mean the opponent is better than you. Haven't you heard of the "just take the throw" philosophy? It's false to say that damage taken correlates directly with skill. Winning with a pixel left is the same as getting a perfect. So no, the person I'm teaching is not "better" than me because they landed a combo. It's more complicated than that.
Also, this conversation feels incredibly abstract and useless to real players. Is there a specific point you're trying to raise?
man I am never playing a riot game again, adding vanguard to league arbitrarily banning everyone on linux was such a bullshit move there's no way I'm going to play their poopy team fighter I'd rather just stick to skullgirls
SO FRICKEN POOPY
Sajam I see that belly hiding under that shirt. It is time to lose weight. A guy with hair as nice as yours should be in decent shape.
Bruh
What a bizarre comment...
@@fallenose683 only to the chronically unfunny
@@kevinhurd6756 it really looks like you got everyone laughing