I am a Christian Universalist, but I don't automatically embrace everything Origen pondered. As far as I know the preexistence of souls came from Platonism, and to be clear I'm not saying it's incorrect for that reason, nor do I think you're a heretic if you believe that. But as a Christian theist I would need more scriptural grounding for that notion. The traditional notion that we inherited our sin nature from Adam, and therefore we all enter into sin for that reason, works just fine. And to be clear the bible teaches that through that same mechanism we inherit righteousness and life through Christ (Rom. 5:18).
NDEs appear attest to our existence prior to inhabiting mortal bodies (NOT reincarnation but that we existed as sentient intelligence prior to our conception and birth into mortality).
I believe if we thoroughly look into the ancient Hebraic idea of what a soul is and its biblical usages, we’d be able to safely dismiss the idea of pre-existing souls. Souls can only exist in creation. Animals are also called souls. Soul, hebraicly, relates closer to the word being, and is used to refer to persons and other creatures/animals. Btw, @totalvoctory, I love your channel. I have been following for years.
One small nit pick, we don’t inherent guilt from Adam, we just inherit the consequences of sin bc of Adam. Funny enough Jesus answer answered both issues indirectly in John 9 and basically we don’t pre-exist, and we aren’t guilty for our parents or ancestors actions including Adam. David Bentley Hart has a low and imo quite uninformed view of the Old Testament his pretty much writing it off as allegory or non literal. Btw I love you videos keep up the good work.
Someone down the line has commented "what benefit is there if you can't remember anything or know anything from that existence"? We don't remember anything from the at least first two years of our life and yet they are two or three of the most important years of our life.
Preexistence as our former state before the fall is an interesting concept. It reminds me of psalm 82 that says you are gods but you will die like men.
Sounds way too Gnostic. I think we “preexisted” in the same sense that an IDEA for a house pretexts on a blueprint, only with no beginning. God has had a plan from all eternity for each and every soul, there was never a time in which each such “idea” had not yet occurred to Him, all that has ever or will ever be created AT CONCEPTION, but they have not been anything more than a plan until then.
@@eldermillennial8330 You might be right. However, Divine Revelation is simply silent on what we were before we were conceived. The eternal idea in Gods mind is also gnostic. For all we know we could have been conceived 5 minutes ago. It's a mystery that we can speculate on. It's reasonable to assume that our original state was more of a spiritual existence rather than the animalistic that we have now. Many of the Church Fathers believed this.
Psalm 82 is not about humans and has nothing to do with roe existence. It’s about actual gods or Elohim created by Yahweh who abused their stewardship over the nations.
@@justchilling704the divine counsel is a theory. It's a good one. Also, the idea that we were part of that "die like men" is a good theory as well. Adam as a symbol of humanity was once in a place where God was. He now dies like a man.
@@byzantinedeacon Divine counsel isn’t a theory it’s objectively what the Hebrew Bible taught and in several places. Humans don’t die like humans, that’s an incredibly redundant statement. The Old Testament right from the Start references God’s council, the so called serpent was a member of the council, and fun fact it wasn’t a actual serpent at all, but rather a spirit in the guise of a serpent or a shining one. And no Heiser didn’t make this up this is standard scholarship.
I particularly found the aspect of the fall intriguing. In fact, with the evolution of homo sapiens, with the issue of animal suffering for millions of years even without human beings, there seems to be a bad thing already sewn into this reality where we were born. But at the same time , when we see the beauty of the stars, the 4 seasons, the sun giving us light, the moon with its beauty, the seas and their soft waves at our feet, the passion that exists between a man and a woman and the baby they have, we see that everything has something so wonderful that it signals a great beautiful work of God himself. So we recognize the world created by God and at the same time some contradiction in that world, an aspect of fall, and that this is far beyond us, beyond human evolution and even of animals in general. A creation that already at its birth has its downfall seems to be a way of accounting for a little of all this. I don't know what clearer ways people will talk about this in the future, reflection will certainly advance, but there are something here that gives some interesting clue, something mysterious. Great is the work of the Lord, far beyond what we understand. God be praised! And thanks to you guys at the channel and to David Bentley Hart for the dialogue, the reflections, and the interesting provocations.
You sound too much like “Piltdown Pete” De Chardin. Macro Evolution cannot be proven within human timescales, it is pure speculation. The evidence for an old UNIVERSE is fairly strong, & Scripture is not at all clear on if it is speaking of the cosmos as a whole or just the perspective of the cosmos from the developing earth. There’s also the theory of the “Six Eras” instead of literal days based on an obscure Hebrew word that is spelled similarly to “day”(YoM) but is pronounced differently (YoaM?), translating into something similar to “Era” or “Epoch”. But even granting the interpretational flexibility that possibility allows, there is STILL ZERO evidence for the so called “Acheon Eon”. It is simply assumed to have existed based on some inferences from the solar system. It is a wholly untestable theory, too, because if it were true, we could never prove it because by definition of the internal geoLOGIC of the hypothesis, all evidence from that era has been destroyed. BUT there is evidence of an alternate beginning, however mysterious its occurrence may be: Polonium Halos in Granite. It is a dirty secret of geological chemistry that it is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate these in all attempts to make artificial granite. We can synthesize every type of stone EXCEPT granite, it cannot be done. The Halos don’t prove a young earth like how the evangelicals still insist, but it does shave off a billion years & has no way to show how the earths core or “foundation” formed so suddenly save by miracle.
Appreciated your comment. I wrestled with the same points you mentioned but they rather led me to leave the Christian faith, at least as I knew it. I couldn't look at the evolution of humans or of the world and see the God of classical theism, or the Fall and see a just and providential deity at work. Have more questions than answers now, but appreciated the role DBH played on my journey and still enjoy his take on things.
@@SeekingVirtueA Thanks for commenting. If I may, allow me to say something (and sorry for the long reflection!). This theme of evolution and its ramifications in Christian thought - the question of Adam, of a fall, of animal suffering for several generations before human beings - is undoubtedly something that may reverberate in the web of our knowledge about God and the world, perhaps even more so on some naive expectations we could have about it all (at least I did). But we have such a vast heritage of Christianity, and our history is full of interesting moments where men and women came out of minority and became more mature, but not before some reality shock. When we discovered that the earth was not at the center of the universe, how many of us felt frustrated and emptied of faith? Today, however, we find this so simplistic and common: the earth is not in the center, and that's okay. When we discovered that the composition of the pentateuch was perhaps multi-layered, a fusion of materials from different eras (J E D P, or modern variants), how many of us were terribly frustrated by this, and emptied of faith? Yet, once again, today many of us feel in calm waters regarding this and have peace of mind, and in fact, for me at least, I find it quite spectacular: when I studied the biology of plants, the stem, the leaves, the cells, and how wonderful everything was sewn together, I found it beautiful that God created such an organic and special “seam” on the pentateuch, bringing the past history of each other together into one, and in this process, tremendously enriching the result for our benefit in slower deep readings. So too, today, the question of evolution and animals has again been a point that brings frustration to many of us; and so too, as in the past, many of us will be able to go through this if, for a moment, we accept looking over the wall, and see the hand of God pulling us to the other side, further, and we accept to enrich ourselves not only with the testimonies of many who came before us, but also with the brothers that God gives us today, and with the burning flame of the Spirit that always continues calling us. I thank God for brothers like Alister McGrath, Scot McKnight, DBH, among many others who have reflected and written about these things, such as Bethany Sollereder (who gave lectures and writes about “God, Evolution, and Animal Suffering”), James K.A. Smith (“Evolution and the Fall”), Mark Harris (“The Nature of Creation”) and the BioLogos organization, as well as Ilia Delio and her more spiritual reflections. These incredible women, like Deborah Haarsma, Bethany Sollereder and Ilia Delio, bring something spectacular to the table. We can't miss the chance to receive some heavenly affection through the wisdom from above that is distilled through them. I write with the best of intentions. Sorry for any errors in my text, English is not my native language. Much love and affection to you, and may God bring many truly and profoundly good surprises for you, - Ric
That could mean the creator had a plan before he went ahead and made that being (creature). A plan such as that represented by DNA. It does not mean the being had consciousness of its own before coming into existence.
People mighty sure of something they can’t possibly know anything about. What are the implications of an infinite past? Then everything that could have happened has already happened
Your not reading this right, what we think of as time and succession of events doesn't actually exist from the perspective of pure spirit, succession and events are all predicated on the perceived differentiation of matter, that thing over here, that other thing over there, back then, here now, distance between said objects, distance between said events, time, and space etc. Time is the measure between distance traversed, and time is the measure of perceived change in matter, matter might not even be changing, just the angle you apprehend it from as you keep moving to get from object A to object B.
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
@@johncasarino5627What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
I wrote a paper on what I call 'the footstool' which explores the possibility that this term used in the Old Testament refers to the physical world as a space for 'walking' that we have 'fallen into' metaphorically speaking which answers the question of suffering and fairness on the part of God's creation (the physical is not made to be crawled on or through).
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸I am fluent in the Hebrew text & that term "h(a)d(o)m" has nothing to do with hell (sheol) which not only in the NT but also in the old Testament is explicitly said that it is the way to a place of FIRE.
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyWhat on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
Why would Hart advise people to not use pre-existence as a theodicy to get 'God off the hook' of the evils of this world? It seems rather a sensible and powerful explanation.
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting; The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star, Hath had elsewhere its setting And cometh from afar; Not in entire forgetfulness, And not in utter nakedness, But trailing clouds of glory do we come From God, who is our home: Heaven lies about us in our infancy! [Ode to Intimations of Immortality, by William Wordsworth]
I doubt this very much. What benefit is there if you can’t remember anything or know anything from that existence? I think such speculation might stop some from taking a deeper look at Christian Universalism.
You hit the nail, yes. You see those foreign ideas contrary to Christianity are coming from the pagan Platonists as Hart & we need to ran for our lives from those sons of Satan who deceive innocent souls with modern ideologies & modern innovations coming out of their prideful twisted minds
Not sure I understood his very last point where he advises that people avoid trying to use pre-existence as a theodicy. Is that because he feels it simply isn’t one? Or is it just that he feels the whole thing - especially pre-ness itself, chronological versus etiological etc - is just too nuanced and, well, fuzzy to act as a clear defense of God? Or what?
In what way is this different than the teaching of A Course In Miracles? As far as I can tell, it is exactly what ACIM teaches about the Fall, etc. I am a Christian who has been a student of Course for several years now, and it is always fascinating for me to find resonances in Christian mysticism. What are your thoughts on A Course In Miracles?
Brother stay away from the son of Satan, the heretic & Trojan horse, DB Hart. He is a schismatic who persists in his heresy after he was rebuked & even dares to call us who reject his greek pagan blasphemies "stupid"
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
It only makes sense God would send us to this terrible place of unimaginable suffering only if we consent bc to not do so would be evil. To follow this chain of logic if the pre-existence of souls is true, which it appears to be, it also leads us to other conclusions. If we are given a choice to come to earth why would we agree to it if we knew there was a chance we’d end up in eternal torment if we went down the wrong path? We must have known if we chose to take part in this great adventure and even if we did lose our way inevitably we would make it back to the Light.
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
Won’t argue one way or the other, but we must keep in mind that Adam became a soul when God breathed the spirit of life into his body. Therefore, we don’t have a soul, we are one, just like other animals in Genesis are referred to as souls. if souls were preexisting, then, what was the purpose in creating Adam and Eve? The idea behind the word “creation” implies something that did not exist prior to its first appearance. Therefore, I lean towards the idea of no prior existence before the creation event. This topic may be fun to think about, but I do not see any value one way or the other. I’m a sinner saved by grace, and grace for one, means grace for all, whether preexisting, or not.
Hi Jim, I think you are right when it comes to the question of what a soul is. God took the dust from the ground and the spirit, merged them into a living soul, into a human. Both the spirit and the ground were already there. And if it is our Spirit that keeps our conscience, then we were existing before we were created as souls. And it will continue when we die as our spirit goes out and returns to God. The concept of creation is not about making something out of nothing. It means something was made out of something else and then given a function or task to perform. In the case of Adam, the task was to fill the earth and subdue it. The sun was one of the existing Lights, which received the function to be there as daylight. I like the arguments that Dr. Walton makes in this regard. God bless, Thomas
@@Thomas_ZscheileWe were not existing before our creation. Our life, our spirit, the essence of our being simply came into being from God for God is the author of all life. For of him, and through him, and to him are all things. Why try to understand things that are mysteries to the finite, mortal mind? Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth. 100% true that creation was not from nothing but in another form. Heb 11:4.
@@Thomas_Zscheile Thanks Thomas. Here’s another thought (a conscious one). Consciousness is defined as having an awareness of one’s existence, sensations, and thoughts - being mentally perceptive and awake. Scriptures also tells us the soul that sins shall die, and the dead know nothing, neither can they praise the Lord, because they are asleep. In other words, they are not conscious, alert, or awake. Therefore, when the spirit returns to God, and the body to dust, we have no consciousness. So, I’m still not convinced of any preexisting condition or conscious before we were created, nor after our death. Our hope is founded in our belief that He will resurrect us, and that’s something we can know! Again, a preexisting condition is interesting but, evidently, not vital to our hope. Maybe that’s why the scriptures don’t give us much information about it, because it’s not that important in our current state. But anyway, thanks for your thoughts - I can hardly wait to find out; well not really, cause it’s d like to live a little longer!
I think dead might have been asleep only before Christ 's cross and resurrection, ín the OT. Now everybody stays conscious when died, because we leave here only the body. There are a lot of NDE proofs of that as well. Sincerely and love
@@jimstrahan3271 Hey Jim, yes sure, it is not vital. Isaiah 14:9-12 speaks about the kings of the earth in Sheol welcoming another one who has come down to them. Sure, a dead body can do nothing, but a spirit is not unconscious. God himself is a spirit. The fact that we don't remember things before our birth does not mean that there was nothing. I just think of NDEs and I remember the story of a young boy who could describe situations from a former life in detail even though he had never heard anything of this person who he remembered to be in the past. So I am just open for the idea of our life as humans being like a theater play which we partake in and that may be designed to teach us valuable lessons. That is my current point of view, but I am not dogmatic. Thomas
Are souls 'individual spirits'? Or does it mean our 'rootedness in Being/Reality itself', with 'Being/Reality itself' being our true self (our true soul)? Or could it be the 'human algorithm', as it were; the code for a universal explainer? (i.e.: that which distinguishes us from animals). If so, in what sense are they pre-existent? In the sense that they are abstractions, and so transcend the physical world? Or could Being/Reality itself and the human algorithm be two aspects of a single entity? What does the word mean?
@@taylornovia8911 Yeah, I suppose one could say we "pre-exist" in the mind of God before having a physical body, etc. (Both humanity as a whole, and each individual),.
Soul is just a fancy way of trying to avoid the fact that we are not separate from God. The use of "soul" is an egoistic attempt at giving everyone a separate spiritual identity, when in reality the foundation of our being is God. From God springs forth all that is. This is the ontological union of multiplicity. If you want to use the term soul, there can only be one soul - God, but it's an unnecessary concept altogether.
@Aaron-xb4rq kind of agree. William james said something like "we have the appearance of individuals and being separate but are unified and one in the deep "
He is brilliant. I keep reading his stuff and even though I I have a Ph.D in theology I don't understand all of it. He is way smarter than I will ever hope to be.
I am a soul. When i die, I will be a dead soul until the resurrection when I will be a resurrected soul partaking in the Trinity. Of course I will probably change my mind on this for the fiftieth time.
I too have hypothesized of the preexistence of souls. Maybe we were the angels that fell and are restored... who knows? But I fully recognize that the Bible doesn´t talk about it, so it really isn´t important. What is important is simply making the right decisions in life today.
I’ve considered the angel thing you mentioned before. My theology has definitely changed since then, but it’s interesting to find others who have imagined the same.
Yes, you have just spewed the worst heresies against God & His Lord. This is what happens when you listen to an evil heretic as Hart. Repent & convert🙏❤️
I return over and again to the fact that, even within and between denominations far less intellectually adventurous than the thinking of DBH, there is so much scope for legitimate, good faith (literally good faith) disagreement about matters of doctrine and salvation. It seems horribly unfair (on the part of God), that our fate in eternity depends upon our choosing one over the others, or having the good fortune to be born into the right one. Of course this is ancient objection, met by ancient answers offered by those denominations, but in a world already filled with natural horrors and human temptations, these additional hurdles are a stumbling block that one might have hoped a good God would have spared us.
I wonder if the idea came from the truth that God has known us from all eternity but we were not created before we we conceived. Just like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth but didn’t actually die till around 32 Ad
@@stefansketracyOrigen is a heretic who said the Bible is allegory🤢And that's why he believed in the pagan platonist concept of pre-existence of souls🤢Repent & convert brother, since Origen is nothing more than an imitation of the father of heretics - Philo of Alexandria who based his philosophy on the pagan Greek pantheist school & was the face of HELLENIZED Judaism. You know who are the Hellenized Jews? Fyi they are the ROOT CAUSE of the Maccabean revolt. Those are the traitors, the enemies of God, the heretical agents of the evil pagan Selucid king Antiochus.
What if...in eternity past, there was war in heaven? (Rev. 12) The heavenly rebels were judged, sentenced, and banished away from the presence of the Lord - to earth? (2 Thess. 1) These rebels were divine beings who could not die - unless they took on flesh. (Luke 20:36) They could not be redeemed unless they died. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, empty vessels were filled with souls to live out their sentences. The duration depends on their level of involvement in the great rebellion. These are just disjointed thoughts on the subject.
I believe if we thoroughly look into the ancient Hebraic idea of what a soul is and its biblical usages, we’d be able to safely dismiss the idea of pre-existing souls. Souls can only exist in creation. Animals are also called souls. Soul, hebraicly, relates closer to the word being, and is used to refer to persons and other creatures/animals.
On that basis you might also reject that they continue after death, at least until you get to the late apocalyptic literature and even then the soul only continues with the body being raised.
@@SeekingVirtueA it’s the spirit that continues, which returns to whom gave it-YHWH (Ecc. 12:7), not the soul. And we don’t become alive again until the resurrection, where we receive new bodies. We are finite extensions of the infinite source- God. There is no life outside of Him. This is how I’ve come to understand this.
Here’s how I see it: According to the scriptures, only God is eternal, having no beginning and no end, existing before all of creation. We are part of the creation of God, and therefore, have a beginning. Even if our beginning was in the mind of God, before creation, it’s still a beginning, and so we cannot ever be called eternal for that reason. That is why we are to be given aionian or age-abiding life, from our resurrection onward into the ages to come, and into eternity future, but are never considered eternal ourselves, because of have a beginning, and not being present in eternity past, where there was only God.
Well wait a minute. If we were in the mind of God before being born and God is eternal, why are you using our temporal existence the measuring stick for what occurred in the eternity of the mind of God?
@@jeffpeffThere is no time in the mind of God. The mind of God is beyond space and time, so if we exist therein, how could we not be eternal? Otherwise, it must also be said that Jesus is not eternal because he became incarnate 2,000 years ago.
@@Aaron-xb4rq Jesus was the Word of God before his incarnation, always existing. We did not exist prior to our conception. Is a thought existence? Because I’m thinking of making a cheeseburger, does that mean it already exists?
@@jeffpeff The point is that God is the foundation and source of all being. All that is springs forth as a manifestation of God. There is no separation between God and all that is. Therefore, it can be said that you are eternal in the sense that you have always existed in God. You are also temporal and mortal in that you come into being bodily for a period of time and then that body will die. But who you are remains. Our life is hidden with Christ in God. Even biologically speaking, all the eggs a woman has are present within her before she's even born. Therefore, any children she has in the future already exist physically before their mother is even born. Likewise, the unborn mother was present in her mother before she was born, etc. So where does one person begin to exist biologically even? Again, there is no ontological separation whatsoever. All is one in God.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 appears to make allowance or entertain the notion that we come from God and will return to God. It reads: “And the dust returns to the earth as it was (death), and the breath/spirit returns to God who gave it (eternal life). This scripture indicates that the dust of earth with which man was created returns at death, but the breath that was breathed into the nostrils of mankind returns to God who gave it. The breath of God was God’s in the beginning when God breathed out into man, and it will return to God in the end when God breathes back in (a biblical metaphor). Paul, I believe, reiterates this in Romans 11 after his declaration of universal mercy when he declares that “For from God are all things, and through God are all things, and to God all things return. This certainly is present in platonism, yet, it is also evidenced in the scriptures. I don’t see this as a reason to disregard this notion, but rather because it is also evidenced in both philosophy and scriptures, I believe it to be more of reason to embrace it. 😊 Thoughts?
All this says to me is that you can have a very high intellect with a deep appreciation of the deep things yet be so far from the truth as it is preeminently in Christ. The errors of Originism, and to some degree, propagated by Mr Hart and others, is that this absolute temporal and simple (in the Thomistic out working of perfect being philosophy sense) view of God, and the inherited Neo-Platonic out workings through which some use too heavily to interpret the Scriptures, necessitates a "reworking" or reinterpretation or ignorance of certain classical doctrines. Blah, blah, blah... (I know what I mean anyway) Lol
Who created the evil death ? God that's who ; so theodicies are never going to cut the mustard as God , being Sovereign , planned for men to sin and suffer as part of His creation process to bring us to the full measure of the stature of Christ. Christ the Way ; our example suffered , died and rose in triumph God brings triumph out of death , evil and suffering so cut Him some slack and stop trying to give the glory of Him creating evil to something or someone else
@@1otterclan Not so. You cannot believe in the “pre” existence of souls since there can be no “pre” to existence in Buddhism. Existence either “is” or it “isn’t” - there is no question of “pre” or “post”. There is no concept of soul (or atman) in Buddhism. Sorry, sir - but you are deeply mistaken here. In fact, there is the exact opposite concept - anatman or “non-self”. Also, there are TWO concepts - rebirth and reincarnation (they are not the same). Buddhists believe in rebirth. Reincarnation is a Hindu belief. In Buddhism, existence is something that is participated in. It is not “existence” but rather an experience that existence “dips into”. To use a very unsatisfactory metaphor: Existence (capital “E”) is a river-bed. Material existence (small “e”) is water that runs through that water bed. That river bed may hold billions of gallons of water - each passing of each molecule of water is different from the molecule that came before. You cannot say “This is the river that was, will be, or is.” You cannot be “reincarnated” because in Buddhism there is no concept of soul. There is nothing to reincarnate. In Buddhism, the material world is where “we” become deluded into believing that material existence (small “e”) is the thing by which we measure “our” Existence (capital “E”). However, it the Existence that is the measure of the material world, which is (at its very core) empty, as it subsists on Existence and not vice versa. Thank you for your time. Namo Buddhaya. 🪷
@@cklesterHe IS the Life EVERLASTING, so Life coming from God IS EVERLASTING, is not it? We see it from this side and God sees the EVER side from there, no? Blessings
This is a very difficult subject - way beyond me. But as far as I am aware, the only sense in which the patristic authors speak of human beings as having existed for all eternity is as ideas in the mind of God. Those that teach pre-existence (like Origen) thought that we are created in time (and with a body) but not in clock time.
@@csgabriella5658 Adam and Eve were created. That was when they started to exist. God breathed energy into them to get them started. Every human being since then has been created at conception. Yes, God is life everlasting! But ONLY God is life everlasting. 🙂
Such a ridiculous comment. 1. Writers, authors, and philosophers exist. You pretend like fiction is necessarily childish. 2. Just because you ignore the problem of ultimate creation, where it all came from, doesn't mean he needs to. So arrogant.
I am a Christian Universalist, but I don't automatically embrace everything Origen pondered. As far as I know the preexistence of souls came from Platonism, and to be clear I'm not saying it's incorrect for that reason, nor do I think you're a heretic if you believe that. But as a Christian theist I would need more scriptural grounding for that notion. The traditional notion that we inherited our sin nature from Adam, and therefore we all enter into sin for that reason, works just fine. And to be clear the bible teaches that through that same mechanism we inherit righteousness and life through Christ (Rom. 5:18).
NDEs appear attest to our existence prior to inhabiting mortal bodies (NOT reincarnation but that we existed as sentient intelligence prior to our conception and birth into mortality).
I like that quote in one of Hart's lectures that theology should've just ended with Gregory of Nyssa and what follows is just commentary.
Inherited guilt is def not scriptural. But it wouldn’t matter if it was because it’s a nonsensical idea that no one should believe.
I believe if we thoroughly look into the ancient Hebraic idea of what a soul is and its biblical usages, we’d be able to safely dismiss the idea of pre-existing souls.
Souls can only exist in creation. Animals are also called souls. Soul, hebraicly, relates closer to the word being, and is used to refer to persons and other creatures/animals.
Btw, @totalvoctory, I love your channel. I have been following for years.
One small nit pick, we don’t inherent guilt from Adam, we just inherit the consequences of sin bc of Adam. Funny enough Jesus answer answered both issues indirectly in John 9 and basically we don’t pre-exist, and we aren’t guilty for our parents or ancestors actions including Adam. David Bentley Hart has a low and imo quite uninformed view of the Old Testament his pretty much writing it off as allegory or non literal.
Btw I love you videos keep up the good work.
Someone down the line has commented "what benefit is there if you can't remember anything or know anything from that existence"? We don't remember anything from the at least first two years of our life and yet they are two or three of the most important years of our life.
Preexistence as our former state before the fall is an interesting concept. It reminds me of psalm 82 that says you are gods but you will die like men.
Sounds way too Gnostic.
I think we “preexisted” in the same sense that an IDEA for a house pretexts on a blueprint, only with no beginning.
God has had a plan from all eternity for each and every soul, there was never a time in which each such “idea” had not yet occurred to Him, all that has ever or will ever be created AT CONCEPTION, but they have not been anything more than a plan until then.
@@eldermillennial8330 You might be right. However, Divine Revelation is simply silent on what we were before we were conceived. The eternal idea in Gods mind is also gnostic. For all we know we could have been conceived 5 minutes ago. It's a mystery that we can speculate on. It's reasonable to assume that our original state was more of a spiritual existence rather than the animalistic that we have now. Many of the Church Fathers believed this.
Psalm 82 is not about humans and has nothing to do with roe existence. It’s about actual gods or Elohim created by Yahweh who abused their stewardship over the nations.
@@justchilling704the divine counsel is a theory. It's a good one. Also, the idea that we were part of that "die like men" is a good theory as well. Adam as a symbol of humanity was once in a place where God was. He now dies like a man.
@@byzantinedeacon Divine counsel isn’t a theory it’s objectively what the Hebrew Bible taught and in several places. Humans don’t die like humans, that’s an incredibly redundant statement.
The Old Testament right from the Start references God’s council, the so called serpent was a member of the council, and fun fact it wasn’t a actual serpent at all, but rather a spirit in the guise of a serpent or a shining one. And no Heiser didn’t make this up this is standard scholarship.
I particularly found the aspect of the fall intriguing. In fact, with the evolution of homo sapiens, with the issue of animal suffering for millions of years even without human beings, there seems to be a bad thing already sewn into this reality where we were born. But at the same time , when we see the beauty of the stars, the 4 seasons, the sun giving us light, the moon with its beauty, the seas and their soft waves at our feet, the passion that exists between a man and a woman and the baby they have, we see that everything has something so wonderful that it signals a great beautiful work of God himself. So we recognize the world created by God and at the same time some contradiction in that world, an aspect of fall, and that this is far beyond us, beyond human evolution and even of animals in general. A creation that already at its birth has its downfall seems to be a way of accounting for a little of all this. I don't know what clearer ways people will talk about this in the future, reflection will certainly advance, but there are something here that gives some interesting clue, something mysterious. Great is the work of the Lord, far beyond what we understand. God be praised! And thanks to you guys at the channel and to David Bentley Hart for the dialogue, the reflections, and the interesting provocations.
You sound too much like “Piltdown Pete” De Chardin.
Macro Evolution cannot be proven within human timescales, it is pure speculation.
The evidence for an old UNIVERSE is fairly strong, & Scripture is not at all clear on if it is speaking of the cosmos as a whole or just the perspective of the cosmos from the developing earth.
There’s also the theory of the “Six Eras” instead of literal days based on an obscure Hebrew word that is spelled similarly to “day”(YoM) but is pronounced differently (YoaM?), translating into something similar to “Era” or “Epoch”.
But even granting the interpretational flexibility that possibility allows, there is STILL ZERO evidence for the so called “Acheon Eon”. It is simply assumed to have existed based on some inferences from the solar system. It is a wholly untestable theory, too, because if it were true, we could never prove it because by definition of the internal geoLOGIC of the hypothesis, all evidence from that era has been destroyed.
BUT there is evidence of an alternate beginning, however mysterious its occurrence may be:
Polonium Halos in Granite.
It is a dirty secret of geological chemistry that it is IMPOSSIBLE to replicate these in all attempts to make artificial granite. We can synthesize every type of stone EXCEPT granite, it cannot be done.
The Halos don’t prove a young earth like how the evangelicals still insist, but it does shave off a billion years & has no way to show how the earths core or “foundation” formed so suddenly save by miracle.
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸You spew secularist evolutionist heresy - get educated, repent & convert, so that you won't end up like Hart the Origenist heretic🙏❤️
Appreciated your comment. I wrestled with the same points you mentioned but they rather led me to leave the Christian faith, at least as I knew it. I couldn't look at the evolution of humans or of the world and see the God of classical theism, or the Fall and see a just and providential deity at work. Have more questions than answers now, but appreciated the role DBH played on my journey and still enjoy his take on things.
@@SeekingVirtueA Thanks for commenting. If I may, allow me to say something (and sorry for the long reflection!). This theme of evolution and its ramifications in Christian thought - the question of Adam, of a fall, of animal suffering for several generations before human beings - is undoubtedly something that may reverberate in the web of our knowledge about God and the world, perhaps even more so on some naive expectations we could have about it all (at least I did). But we have such a vast heritage of Christianity, and our history is full of interesting moments where men and women came out of minority and became more mature, but not before some reality shock. When we discovered that the earth was not at the center of the universe, how many of us felt frustrated and emptied of faith? Today, however, we find this so simplistic and common: the earth is not in the center, and that's okay. When we discovered that the composition of the pentateuch was perhaps multi-layered, a fusion of materials from different eras (J E D P, or modern variants), how many of us were terribly frustrated by this, and emptied of faith? Yet, once again, today many of us feel in calm waters regarding this and have peace of mind, and in fact, for me at least, I find it quite spectacular: when I studied the biology of plants, the stem, the leaves, the cells, and how wonderful everything was sewn together, I found it beautiful that God created such an organic and special “seam” on the pentateuch, bringing the past history of each other together into one, and in this process, tremendously enriching the result for our benefit in slower deep readings. So too, today, the question of evolution and animals has again been a point that brings frustration to many of us; and so too, as in the past, many of us will be able to go through this if, for a moment, we accept looking over the wall, and see the hand of God pulling us to the other side, further, and we accept to enrich ourselves not only with the testimonies of many who came before us, but also with the brothers that God gives us today, and with the burning flame of the Spirit that always continues calling us.
I thank God for brothers like Alister McGrath, Scot McKnight, DBH, among many others who have reflected and written about these things, such as Bethany Sollereder (who gave lectures and writes about “God, Evolution, and Animal Suffering”), James K.A. Smith (“Evolution and the Fall”), Mark Harris (“The Nature of Creation”) and the BioLogos organization, as well as Ilia Delio and her more spiritual reflections. These incredible women, like Deborah Haarsma, Bethany Sollereder and Ilia Delio, bring something spectacular to the table. We can't miss the chance to receive some heavenly affection through the wisdom from above that is distilled through them.
I write with the best of intentions. Sorry for any errors in my text, English is not my native language. Much love and affection to you, and may God bring many truly and profoundly good surprises for you,
- Ric
The answer lies in chaos and the anthropic principle, not some god
Though I disagree with him on this particular question, I love DBH and listening to him speak. What music do you use for the background?
The music is almost always listed in the end credits 😎
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee...
Jeremiah 1:5
Yup.
That could mean the creator had a plan before he went ahead and made that being (creature). A plan such as that represented by DNA. It does not mean the being had consciousness of its own before coming into existence.
People mighty sure of something they can’t possibly know anything about. What are the implications of an infinite past? Then everything that could have happened has already happened
Your not reading this right, what we think of as time and succession of events doesn't actually exist from the perspective of pure spirit, succession and events are all predicated on the perceived differentiation of matter, that thing over here, that other thing over there, back then, here now, distance between said objects, distance between said events, time, and space etc. Time is the measure between distance traversed, and time is the measure of perceived change in matter, matter might not even be changing, just the angle you apprehend it from as you keep moving to get from object A to object B.
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
@@johncasarino5627What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
I wrote a paper on what I call 'the footstool' which explores the possibility that this term used in the Old Testament refers to the physical world as a space for 'walking' that we have 'fallen into' metaphorically speaking which answers the question of suffering and fairness on the part of God's creation (the physical is not made to be crawled on or through).
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸I am fluent in the Hebrew text & that term "h(a)d(o)m" has nothing to do with hell (sheol) which not only in the NT but also in the old Testament is explicitly said that it is the way to a place of FIRE.
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxyWhat on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
Why would Hart advise people to not use pre-existence as a theodicy to get 'God off the hook' of the evils of this world? It seems rather a sensible and powerful explanation.
I do think the problem of Evil is softened if you claim we chose to be born. Doesn't really address animal suffering very well though.
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting;
The Soul that rises with us, our life’s Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting
And cometh from afar;
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy! [Ode to Intimations of Immortality, by William Wordsworth]
Ahhh… that’s refreshing.
I doubt this very much. What benefit is there if you can’t remember anything or know anything from that existence?
I think such speculation might stop some from taking a deeper look at Christian Universalism.
You hit the nail, yes. You see those foreign ideas contrary to Christianity are coming from the pagan Platonists as Hart & we need to ran for our lives from those sons of Satan who deceive innocent souls with modern ideologies & modern innovations coming out of their prideful twisted minds
Not sure I understood his very last point where he advises that people avoid trying to use pre-existence as a theodicy. Is that because he feels it simply isn’t one? Or is it just that he feels the whole thing - especially pre-ness itself, chronological versus etiological etc - is just too nuanced and, well, fuzzy to act as a clear defense of God? Or what?
In what way is this different than the teaching of A Course In Miracles? As far as I can tell, it is exactly what ACIM teaches about the Fall, etc. I am a Christian who has been a student of Course for several years now, and it is always fascinating for me to find resonances in Christian mysticism. What are your thoughts on A Course In Miracles?
Brother stay away from the son of Satan, the heretic & Trojan horse, DB Hart. He is a schismatic who persists in his heresy after he was rebuked & even dares to call us who reject his greek pagan blasphemies "stupid"
All speculative bs made to make a few rich, like all religions and "spiritual" cults
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
It only makes sense God would send us to this terrible place of unimaginable suffering only if we consent bc to not do so would be evil. To follow this chain of logic if the pre-existence of souls is true, which it appears to be, it also leads us to other conclusions. If we are given a choice to come to earth why would we agree to it if we knew there was a chance we’d end up in eternal torment if we went down the wrong path? We must have known if we chose to take part in this great adventure and even if we did lose our way inevitably we would make it back to the Light.
I love this thought 🥹💕
I like this line of reasoning - however while it led me to conclude the opposite about God, I do hope I'm wrong and apokostasis is true in the end.
thanks for posting theses
What on earth is this junk? We all existed in the 1st earth age or world age before the foundation of this world meaning since before the overthrow of Satan during his rebellion, we are in this flesh age for God to see who loves Him and who doesn't and when satan returns He will see who has studied God's Word and who hasn't, instead of listening to this junk, we have always existed since God created our souls. When the true Christ returns will begin the Lord's Day, then at the end of that people will have 1 final decision to whom they will follow, they will either live forever or be blotted out, not some literal hell that doesn't exist, the eternal Heaven will be here on earth, we've found angelic footprints in New Mexico dating back 10 million years. The 1st earth age is where all the dinosaurs were, Job 37 all the stars sang together, so much scripture backs up the 3 earth age, the eternity being the 3rd made perfect again as it was before the overthrow and God's Word proves that rapture is a lie, the Lord's Day is the millennium, nobody is going anywhere Ezekiel 13 God hates them teaching that fly away garbage, or Eve ate a apple offered by some snake such lies, Christ found no fault with 2 churches, they didn't teach rapture created in 1830 by Margaret MacDonald, they taught who the Kenites were, and Christ said LEARN the parable of the fig tree, Satan is the antichrist the false prophet and 2nd beast which is the religious beast, the 1st beast is political. We are in that final generation and the mark of the beast are those who are deceived and think satan is Jesus Christ not some stupid vaccine, get away from the traditions of men that make the Word of God of none effect and false churcg doctrines and open your eyes, see what GOD has to say, get a Strong's exhaustive concordance and a companion Bible and a Smith's Bible dictionary and get into the Word of God and be a champion and make a stand!!!
Won’t argue one way or the other, but we must keep in mind that Adam became a soul when God breathed the spirit of life into his body. Therefore, we don’t have a soul, we are one, just like other animals in Genesis are referred to as souls. if souls were preexisting, then, what was the purpose in creating Adam and Eve?
The idea behind the word “creation” implies something that did not exist prior to its first appearance. Therefore, I lean towards the idea of no prior existence before the creation event. This topic may be fun to think about, but I do not see any value one way or the other. I’m a sinner saved by grace, and grace for one, means grace for all, whether preexisting, or not.
Hi Jim,
I think you are right when it comes to the question of what a soul is.
God took the dust from the ground and the spirit, merged them into a living soul, into a human. Both the spirit and the ground were already there. And if it is our Spirit that keeps our conscience, then we were existing before we were created as souls. And it will continue when we die as our spirit goes out and returns to God.
The concept of creation is not about making something out of nothing. It means something was made out of something else and then given a function or task to perform. In the case of Adam, the task was to fill the earth and subdue it.
The sun was one of the existing Lights, which received the function to be there as daylight.
I like the arguments that Dr. Walton makes in this regard.
God bless, Thomas
@@Thomas_ZscheileWe were not existing before our creation. Our life, our spirit, the essence of our being simply came into being from God for God is the author of all life. For of him, and through him, and to him are all things. Why try to understand things that are mysteries to the finite, mortal mind? Knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth. 100% true that creation was not from nothing but in another form. Heb 11:4.
@@Thomas_Zscheile Thanks Thomas. Here’s another thought (a conscious one). Consciousness is defined as having an awareness of one’s existence, sensations, and thoughts - being mentally perceptive and awake. Scriptures also tells us the soul that sins shall die, and the dead know nothing, neither can they praise the Lord, because they are asleep. In other words, they are not conscious, alert, or awake. Therefore, when the spirit returns to God, and the body to dust, we have no consciousness. So, I’m still not convinced of any preexisting condition or conscious before we were created, nor after our death. Our hope is founded in our belief that He will resurrect us, and that’s something we can know!
Again, a preexisting condition is interesting but, evidently, not vital to our hope. Maybe that’s why the scriptures don’t give us much information about it, because it’s not that important in our current state. But anyway, thanks for your thoughts - I can hardly wait to find out; well not really, cause it’s d like to live a little longer!
I think dead might have been asleep only before Christ 's cross and resurrection, ín the OT. Now everybody stays conscious when died, because we leave here only the body. There are a lot of NDE proofs of that as well. Sincerely and love
@@jimstrahan3271 Hey Jim, yes sure, it is not vital. Isaiah 14:9-12 speaks about the kings of the earth in Sheol welcoming another one who has come down to them. Sure, a dead body can do nothing, but a spirit is not unconscious. God himself is a spirit.
The fact that we don't remember things before our birth does not mean that there was nothing. I just think of NDEs and I remember the story of a young boy who could describe situations from a former life in detail even though he had never heard anything of this person who he remembered to be in the past. So I am just open for the idea of our life as humans being like a theater play which we partake in and that may be designed to teach us valuable lessons. That is my current point of view, but I am not dogmatic.
Thomas
Are souls 'individual spirits'? Or does it mean our 'rootedness in Being/Reality itself', with 'Being/Reality itself' being our true self (our true soul)? Or could it be the 'human algorithm', as it were; the code for a universal explainer? (i.e.: that which distinguishes us from animals). If so, in what sense are they pre-existent? In the sense that they are abstractions, and so transcend the physical world? Or could Being/Reality itself and the human algorithm be two aspects of a single entity? What does the word mean?
Henry Ford imagined the model T before he created it. There was a blue print before there was the car.
@@taylornovia8911 Yeah, I suppose one could say we "pre-exist" in the mind of God before having a physical body, etc. (Both humanity as a whole, and each individual),.
Soul is just a fancy way of trying to avoid the fact that we are not separate from God. The use of "soul" is an egoistic attempt at giving everyone a separate spiritual identity, when in reality the foundation of our being is God. From God springs forth all that is. This is the ontological union of multiplicity. If you want to use the term soul, there can only be one soul - God, but it's an unnecessary concept altogether.
@Aaron-xb4rq kind of agree. William james said something like "we have the appearance of individuals and being separate but are unified and one in the deep "
@@taylornovia8911 Beautifully said. Reality is non-dual. There is no separation between God and man (and all that is).
This guy has forgotten more stuff on the way to take a dump in the morning that I have ever learned in my life
He is brilliant. I keep reading his stuff and even though I I have a Ph.D in theology I don't understand all of it. He is way smarter than I will ever hope to be.
I am a soul. When i die, I will be a dead soul until the resurrection when I will be a resurrected soul partaking in the Trinity. Of course I will probably change my mind on this for the fiftieth time.
You were doing real good till you mentioned the Trinity.😊
meh. we were pre-existent only in the sense that we existed in the Father's imagination or as a thought in His mind.
I have personally talked to several near death experiencers who affirmed they planned in detail their lives
yes... which is quite common, put together they are further evidence
I too have hypothesized of the preexistence of souls. Maybe we were the angels that fell and are restored... who knows?
But I fully recognize that the Bible doesn´t talk about it, so it really isn´t important. What is important is simply making the right decisions in life today.
I’ve considered the angel thing you mentioned before. My theology has definitely changed since then, but it’s interesting to find others who have imagined the same.
Yes, you have just spewed the worst heresies against God & His Lord. This is what happens when you listen to an evil heretic as Hart. Repent & convert🙏❤️
@@EasternRomeOrthodoxy omg you sound so stupid lol
I return over and again to the fact that, even within and between denominations far less intellectually adventurous than the thinking of DBH, there is so much scope for legitimate, good faith (literally good faith) disagreement about matters of doctrine and salvation. It seems horribly unfair (on the part of God), that our fate in eternity depends upon our choosing one over the others, or having the good fortune to be born into the right one. Of course this is ancient objection, met by ancient answers offered by those denominations, but in a world already filled with natural horrors and human temptations, these additional hurdles are a stumbling block that one might have hoped a good God would have spared us.
All souls are fractals of God.
Gnostic?
I knew it 🎉
I wonder if the idea came from the truth that God has known us from all eternity but we were not created before we we conceived. Just like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the earth but didn’t actually die till around 32 Ad
What the hell is a 'soul' and how can it be detected?
I'm glad that the early Church condemned the doctrine of the pre-existence of the soul(s). But, I was intrigued by some of his other ideas here.
Why are you glad. How do you understand Origen on the prexistence of souls?
Instead of being happy, why not look into it yourself?
@@stefansketracyOrigen is a heretic who said the Bible is allegory🤢And that's why he believed in the pagan platonist concept of pre-existence of souls🤢Repent & convert brother, since Origen is nothing more than an imitation of the father of heretics - Philo of Alexandria who based his philosophy on the pagan Greek pantheist school & was the face of HELLENIZED Judaism. You know who are the Hellenized Jews? Fyi they are the ROOT CAUSE of the Maccabean revolt. Those are the traitors, the enemies of God, the heretical agents of the evil pagan Selucid king Antiochus.
I'm unsatisfied with Dave's response. I also get the impression that is use of "subtle" means "convoluted" or "absolute mystery."
What if...in eternity past, there was war in heaven? (Rev. 12) The heavenly rebels were judged, sentenced, and banished away from the presence of the Lord - to earth? (2 Thess. 1) These rebels were divine beings who could not die - unless they took on flesh. (Luke 20:36) They could not be redeemed unless they died. The wages of sin is death. Therefore, empty vessels were filled with souls to live out their sentences. The duration depends on their level of involvement in the great rebellion.
These are just disjointed thoughts on the subject.
Eternal
I believe if we thoroughly look into the ancient Hebraic idea of what a soul is and its biblical usages, we’d be able to safely dismiss the idea of pre-existing souls.
Souls can only exist in creation. Animals are also called souls. Soul, hebraicly, relates closer to the word being, and is used to refer to persons and other creatures/animals.
On that basis you might also reject that they continue after death, at least until you get to the late apocalyptic literature and even then the soul only continues with the body being raised.
@@SeekingVirtueA it’s the spirit that continues, which returns to whom gave it-YHWH (Ecc. 12:7), not the soul. And we don’t become alive again until the resurrection, where we receive new bodies.
We are finite extensions of the infinite source- God. There is no life outside of Him.
This is how I’ve come to understand this.
Here’s how I see it: According to the scriptures, only God is eternal, having no beginning and no end, existing before all of creation. We are part of the creation of God, and therefore, have a beginning. Even if our beginning was in the mind of God, before creation, it’s still a beginning, and so we cannot ever be called eternal for that reason. That is why we are to be given aionian or age-abiding life, from our resurrection onward into the ages to come, and into eternity future, but are never considered eternal ourselves, because of have a beginning, and not being present in eternity past, where there was only God.
Well wait a minute. If we were in the mind of God before being born and God is eternal, why are you using our temporal existence the measuring stick for what occurred in the eternity of the mind of God?
@@taylornovia8911 No, but were we always in the mind of God in eternity past the entire time? Only God knows.
@@jeffpeffThere is no time in the mind of God. The mind of God is beyond space and time, so if we exist therein, how could we not be eternal? Otherwise, it must also be said that Jesus is not eternal because he became incarnate 2,000 years ago.
@@Aaron-xb4rq Jesus was the Word of God before his incarnation, always existing.
We did not exist prior to our conception. Is a thought existence? Because I’m thinking of making a cheeseburger, does that mean it already exists?
@@jeffpeff The point is that God is the foundation and source of all being. All that is springs forth as a manifestation of God. There is no separation between God and all that is. Therefore, it can be said that you are eternal in the sense that you have always existed in God. You are also temporal and mortal in that you come into being bodily for a period of time and then that body will die. But who you are remains. Our life is hidden with Christ in God.
Even biologically speaking, all the eggs a woman has are present within her before she's even born. Therefore, any children she has in the future already exist physically before their mother is even born. Likewise, the unborn mother was present in her mother before she was born, etc. So where does one person begin to exist biologically even? Again, there is no ontological separation whatsoever. All is one in God.
First natural then spirtual
Ecclesiastes 12:7 appears to make allowance or entertain the notion that we come from God and will return to God.
It reads: “And the dust returns to the earth as it was (death), and the breath/spirit returns to God who gave it (eternal life).
This scripture indicates that the dust of earth with which man was created returns at death, but the breath that was breathed into the nostrils of mankind returns to God who gave it. The breath of God was God’s in the beginning when God breathed out into man, and it will return to God in the end when God breathes back in (a biblical metaphor).
Paul, I believe, reiterates this in Romans 11 after his declaration of universal mercy when he declares that “For from God are all things, and through God are all things, and to God all things return.
This certainly is present in platonism, yet, it is also evidenced in the scriptures. I don’t see this as a reason to disregard this notion, but rather because it is also evidenced in both philosophy and scriptures, I believe it to be more of reason to embrace it. 😊
Thoughts?
My understanding is that the pre-existence of souls theory was condemned at the 2nd Council of Constantinople (553).
The origin is in Origen.
All this says to me is that you can have a very high intellect with a deep appreciation of the deep things yet be so far from the truth as it is preeminently in Christ.
The errors of Originism, and to some degree, propagated by Mr Hart and others, is that this absolute temporal and simple (in the Thomistic out working of perfect being philosophy sense) view of God, and the inherited Neo-Platonic out workings through which some use too heavily to interpret the Scriptures, necessitates a "reworking" or reinterpretation or ignorance of certain classical doctrines.
Blah, blah, blah... (I know what I mean anyway) Lol
Who created the evil death ? God that's who ; so theodicies are never going to cut the mustard as God , being Sovereign , planned for men to sin and suffer as part of His creation process to bring us to the full measure of the stature of Christ.
Christ the Way ; our example suffered , died and rose in triumph
God brings triumph out of death , evil and suffering so cut Him some slack and stop trying to give the glory of Him creating evil to something or someone else
As a Buddhist, this question is not very interesting at all, as it cannot be known.
Buddhists believe in the pre-existence of souls. Reincarnation.
@@1otterclan Not so. You cannot believe in the “pre” existence of souls since there can be no “pre” to existence in Buddhism. Existence either “is” or it “isn’t” - there is no question of “pre” or “post”. There is no concept of soul (or atman) in Buddhism. Sorry, sir - but you are deeply mistaken here. In fact, there is the exact opposite concept - anatman or “non-self”. Also, there are TWO concepts - rebirth and reincarnation (they are not the same). Buddhists believe in rebirth. Reincarnation is a Hindu belief. In Buddhism, existence is something that is participated in. It is not “existence” but rather an experience that existence “dips into”. To use a very unsatisfactory metaphor: Existence (capital “E”) is a river-bed. Material existence (small “e”) is water that runs through that water bed. That river bed may hold billions of gallons of water - each passing of each molecule of water is different from the molecule that came before. You cannot say “This is the river that was, will be, or is.” You cannot be “reincarnated” because in Buddhism there is no concept of soul. There is nothing to reincarnate. In Buddhism, the material world is where “we” become deluded into believing that material existence (small “e”) is the thing by which we measure “our” Existence (capital “E”). However, it the Existence that is the measure of the material world, which is (at its very core) empty, as it subsists on Existence and not vice versa. Thank you for your time. Namo Buddhaya. 🪷
We didn't [exist prior to our conception]. Next!
Oh yes we did…before we were formed in the womb HE KNEW US.
@@jcismyallthat's not what that phrase means. It's referring to God's omnipresence, not our existence. The Bible says God alone is immortal.
@@cklesterHe IS the Life EVERLASTING, so Life coming from God IS EVERLASTING, is not it? We see it from this side and God sees the EVER side from there, no? Blessings
This is a very difficult subject - way beyond me. But as far as I am aware, the only sense in which the patristic authors speak of human beings as having existed for all eternity is as ideas in the mind of God. Those that teach pre-existence (like Origen) thought that we are created in time (and with a body) but not in clock time.
@@csgabriella5658 Adam and Eve were created. That was when they started to exist. God breathed energy into them to get them started. Every human being since then has been created at conception. Yes, God is life everlasting! But ONLY God is life everlasting. 🙂
"The controversial idea" ? As in make-believe fantasy?
What is exactly your point? Please clarify....
@@subhrodiprakshit8923 How would you define fantasy?
I feel so I ignorant when I hear DBH speak
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸And that's exactly the reason how this vile heretic is fooling you with pagan ideologies 🤦
greek philosophy in other words....
The Mormon in me made me click
What a waste of an intellect. All he is doing is reviewing fiction.
Such a ridiculous comment. 1. Writers, authors, and philosophers exist. You pretend like fiction is necessarily childish. 2. Just because you ignore the problem of ultimate creation, where it all came from, doesn't mean he needs to. So arrogant.
@@RuthvenMurgatroyd He's a pompous ass who thinks he is actually right about things he has no clue about.
heretic