I remember when I believed in eternal hell fire, I could not feel close to God because of how wrong that idea was, it made me not want to follow God. Once I learned of the truth, I now run to God and love God now. How can one not want to follow a God that has a plan to bring everyone to salvation.
Baptist here rededicated my life every few weeks re baptized many times finally gave up on trying to live a perfect life and found out supernaturally one after noon god just took me away in his spirit and just held me and showed me in every body’s eyes I saw god spark in every one s it’s I looked it to
There is a hell. Jesus talks about hell. Mark 9:42-48 KJV [42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. [43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 0:05
I dream of the the day when all Sunday school teachers will openly teach kids in church the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored back to what it was originally. So beautiful...
@@mattr.1887 This is an interesting point. I think mostly ECT has not been sufficiently challenged in public. When most people hear about Christian Universalism, at first it might sound ridiculous. However the more they think about it, the more they will see that Christian Universalism is true. All the way true. I think one day when ECT is challenged it will be exposed as a hollow paper tiger. ECT is thoroughly unbiblical and idiotic given both the Old and New Testament.
@@mattr.1887 I call it endless conscious torment in place of eternal conscious torment since eternal means without beginning or end. I know it stems from the Greek word aiṓnios (αἰώνιος). I agree with you. It will take a while for people to unlearn this doctrine.
I was raised Baptist for the most part so I have pretty much always been taught once you are saved you will always be saved ,but now I am becoming convinced that we are all saved ,because how else could God be all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28 KJV
Agree ☺️ Hebrews 9:12 He went once for all into the [Holy of] Holies [of heaven], not by virtue of the blood of goats and calves [by which to make reconciliation between God and man], but His own blood, having found and secured a complete redemption (an everlasting release for us).
This is very thought provoking the way that this concept is fleshed out. It’s sad that a lot of Christians are so preoccupied with being right; it all comes out of fear and Scripture says “there is no fear in love” God is love and in Him we live and move and have our being.
Thanks for this. It took me 30 years before I was willing to consider Universalism. Like many, early in my walk I read a lot of CS Lewis, and I understood early on CS Lewis had a great admiration for George MacDonald, and I understood he was a Universalist. It was my unsated curiousity about MadDonald that led me to open my mind to actually listen to what Universalists really believe.
One usually thinks of universalists as soft, sentimental or lenient on sin but George MacDonald was probably the toughest preacher on sin I've ever heard though I haven't heard many preachers I admit. He certainly preached hell hot but temporary.
@@saraventura1333 Both heaven and hell are not a geographical place, but a state of mind. Judas is an example of someone who experienced hell (ín his soul). Remember this was before the cross.
saraventura1333 Please provide your factual evidence that Judas will not one day reconcile. By no means am I defending Judas, but wiithout his role in this, Jesus doesn't die for your sins.
@@alwaysadawg6488 In a twisted, misguided way (plus Satan entered in) Judas thought he was doing the "right thing," forcing Jesus' hand to use His supernatural power to overcome the rule of the Romans and Pharisees. But Jesus only did what He heard from the Father -- His Kingdom was not of this world. Judas did not follow Jesus, and his act was meant for evil, but God meant it for good. Jesus asked, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." This is Father God's business, not ours.
Im doing a research project on early fantasy right now for a college course, and this video is really giving me some great thoughts! This MacDonald fella had some revolutionary ideas about god and humans relationship with them. Thanks for the vid!
Thank you. This was nicely put together, educational and edifying. I'm appreciative of the carefully chosen words. His Peace to ALL. I long for the age when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Christ is Lord. Including stalin and hitler, etc. etc.
To say that God need to create an Eternal Hell to condemn His creation, this is bad mouthing God as being a failure in His salvation. But then how would the Almighty God fails ? He will never fail. Nothing is impossible for God, even salvation beyond the grave.
Exactly. Some say God lets people decide for themselves which way they go, but ultimately it is God who determines what takes place in His creation. He is not willing that any should perish. Can we overrule God? No. Father God is Sovereign.
That was actually his buddy Timothy Keller. I'm no fan of Piper, and he also apparently thinks that MacDonald was a heretic, but to give him his due, he doesn't respond in that video when Keller tries to egg him on to denounce MacDonald as an unbeliever.
@@newmannoggs Yes, I have watched that video for the first time since receiving your comment. I was really quoting what Ron Dart had said where Dart claimed that both Keller and Piper's position was that they didn't consider MacDonald to be a Christian.
If God knew from the beginning of time that He was going to save everyone, then why condemn us in the first place? Why create us, condemn us, and then save us again? Why not create us in a state of grace and maintain us forever in that same state of grace? What if He gave us free will--but only to make mistakes (which are simply corrected by the Truth), not free will to separate ourselves from Him for even an instant? Thank you for allowing me space to ask this question. I know I'm asking it over and over again, but no one is responding. I think it's a good question--particularly in light of what George MacDonald talks about. I'd like a response, and I don't know where else to ask this question. Is there a better place where I might post this question?
I think universalists would vary in their responses. Many would say that, like in the story of the prodigal son, it is not God who condemns us but we who condemn ourselves and God who saves us from our self-destruction through love. And free will to make (moral, I'm assuming?) mistakes sounds very similar to free will to "separate ourselves from Him"--as long as we are simply talking relationally and we understand that it is a one-sided separation. God loves us from beginning to end, but (just like in the story of the prodigal son) we respond differently to his love at certain times "along the way". Sorry if you are not getting the responses you are hoping for. There might be more active discussions in Facebook groups like the Christian Universalist Association: facebook.com/groups/212981733316 or the Evangelical Universalism (Invitation & Debate) group: facebook.com/groups/invitaiontoeu There are many other groups or discussion boards out there as well. Of course, feel free to comment on these videos, but I probably won't respond often as I can sometimes be busy with other things. Perhaps others will respond.
@@LoveUnrelenting Thanks for the response! I guess the next thing I grapple with is this: Are we made of something that can be separated from God? It's like saying we can use our free will to separate from the Higgs Field or gravitation. God is the Source of our Being. To separate from Being would be to not exist, so do we just pop in and out of existence--of our own free will? I think Universalism is the most optimistic form of Christianity--but it's still not optimistic enough! It is still based on the idea that we can, of our own free will, separate ourselves from God, and God allows that. Why would a loving God allow His children to freely separate from Him? Have you ever lost a child in a grocery store? Would God want His child to experience the fear of not being able to find His parents? Thanks for the suggestion of other blogs--maybe if I spread these questions around, I'll find a variety of good approaches! :)
@@stuartkenny3050 Stuart, we do NOT have free will in the first place. Free will is a total myth of the harlot church system. Free will believers deny the fact God has already created everything in the past, the present, and future. God is the only infinite being, God is the only Absolute Ruler of all eternity, and God is timeless, existing outside of time. Since God created everything, God therefore can and does know everything - because the only way to be able to know everything is to create everything. It amazes me how I have had people even argue with me God can foreknow our future without foreordaining it! Yes, God foreknows all future events ONLY because He Himself has already CREATED them all! He is not a fortune teller who looks into a crystal ball to see the future as determined by the supposed free wills of His finite living creatures. God ORDERS the future by creating it in its entirety. It is ALREADY created and predetermined by Him and Him alone! God inhabits all of eternity and infinity at once! There is no other way to know everything unless everything has already been created - and the only infinite Creator capable of creating infinite future events in advance is God. Free will utterly denies God's jurisdiction over His creation. Free will claims we are not under God's jurisdiction over His creation by claiming we can control ourselves independently of God. We create NOTHING. We ONLY do exactly what God has already created. He created every aspect of us, including all our cells in our bodies and all our thoughts. Our brain cells are entirely controlled by God, meaning we cannot even THINK unless God wills a particular thought He has already created to enter our minds. Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Ecclesiastes 3:11 "God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but He has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives." God has placed ignorance in the hearts of all free will believers. These verses plainly teach God is the creator of everything, including every minute detail of our whole destinies. Our destinies are created by God and thus SEALED by God! Thank GOD for this, and for LITERALLY EVERYTHING! Nothing can happen except for what God has ALREADY created! His creative power is infinite! His creativity is infinite! He has nothing left to create because God exists outside of time - and all things of all eternity and all infinity are already His by His right of ownership.
@@stuartkenny3050 The fact God has already created everything TOTALLY disproves human free will. Considering God is infinite and unchangeable, not even God has free will to change Himself, or free will to destroy His perfection.
@@stuartkenny3050 Why God allows separation in the first place? God perhaps wants us to know Him effectively: through the way of suffering. We can delight in glory more fully when we suffer the most. This can be confirmed by our experience.
A view of the Bible ive never heard of. Im constantly learning different "teachings' of the Bible and why some people give up on the Bible. Ive decided we may never understand it all, but wont loose my faith in God🙏
That cruel old Calvinism that says one can be destined for eternal death, essentially before one is even born -- that contradicts a thousand Scripture passages -- and what kind of loving God would do that? Yes, there is punishment for the wicked, and chastisement and correction, each according to the offense, but how "forever and ever"? It is grotesque reading the writings of the presumed evangelist Jonathan Edwards expressing in gleeful detail the eternal torment of the sinner. Is this any way to draw anyone to Jesus Christ, "scaring the hell" out of them? No wonder so many are put off by such a "gospel." The Good News of Jesus Christ is *transformation,* that I can become a new person in Christ, where the Old Man and his sin can be put off and the New Man, Christ, can be put on, fashioned into a new creation. That we can become His followers (disciples) and brethren. What a calling! What a life of joy, expectation, and victory! Thats my Evangel (Gospel) and I'm stickin' to it.
Satan will for all of eternity never be redeemed, as he is the reason the Father had to give His only beloved Son and of course, the sorrow the entire human race experienced ! Jesus has dealt with him at the cross áfter He has took away the sin of the world. Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it. The name Satan áfter the cross has become a verb, a doing word. When we live from the darkness of our souls, we indeed is the satan (not Satan).
@@eekay5710 We shall have to wait until the consummation of all things to find out. That also is *God's business.* The Scripture does say, "EVERY knee SHALL bow, and every tongue [gladly, willingly] confess that Jesus is Lord. "Lord" means ownership. The last enemy to be conquered is death, then Christ will relinquish His Kingdom to the FATHER, who then will become All, IN all. 1 Cor. 15:22-28. All means ALL, the same "all" in Rom. 3 that says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Just repeating what the Scripture says. I'm inclined to let God take care of all that. His thoughts are so far above my thoughts that I shouldn't even give my own opinion.
This video conflates the issues of Calvinism with the issue of eternal torment (perhaps MacDonald did as well). The problem of Calvinism is that God actually predestines all human choices, including sin and rejection of Christ. Also (maybe a bit off topic), universalist determinism makes little more sense that Calvinist determinism, although the ending is happier. Any view of sin that's to make sense has to account for true (not compatibalist) human freedom.
Your point about freedom is an important one, and not at all off topic. In my reading of MacDonald, I am convinced that he did not believe that we are merely characters in God's script, but co-authors with him. Let me try to excerpt a long-ish quote from his sermon "Man's Difficulty Concerning Prayer": "'How should any design of the All-wise be altered in response to prayer of ours!' How are we to believe such a thing? By reflecting that he is the All-wise, who sees before him, and will not block his path. Such objection springs from poorest idea of God in relation to us. It supposes him to have cares and plans and intentions concerning our part of creation, irrespective of us. What is the whole system of things for, but our education? Does God care for suns and planets and satellites, for divine mathematics and ordered harmonies, more than for his children? I venture to say he cares more for oxen than for those. He lays no plans irrespective of his children; and, his design being that they shall be free, active, live things, he sees that space be kept for them: they need room to struggle out of their chrysalis, to undergo the change that comes with the waking will, and to enter upon the divine sports and labours of children in the house and domain of their Father. Surely he may keep his plans in a measure unfixed, waiting the free desire of the individual soul!" Shortly after this, he continues: "What perfection in a dwelling would it be that its furniture and the paths between were fitted as the trays and pigeon-holes of a cabinet? What stupidity of perfection would that be which left no margin about God's work, no room for change of plan upon change of fact-yea, even the mighty change that, behold now at length, his child is praying! See the freedom of God in his sunsets-never a second like one of the foregone!-in his moons and skies-in the ever-changing solid earth!- all moving by no dead law, but in the harmony of the vital law of liberty, God's creative perfection-all ordered from within. A divine perfection that were indeed, where was no liberty! where there could be but one way of a thing! I may move my arm as I please: shall God be unable so to move his? If but for himself, God might well desire no change, but he is God for the sake of his growing creatures; all his making and doing is for them, and change is the necessity of their very existence. They need a mighty law of liberty, into which shall never intrude one atom of chance. Is the one idea of creation the begetting of a free, grand, divine will in us? and shall that will, praying with the will of the Father, find itself cramped, fettered, manacled by foregone laws? Will it not rather be a new-born law itself, working new things? No man is so tied by divine law that he can nowise modify his work: shall God not modify his? Law is but mode of life-action. Is it of his perfection that he should have no scope, no freedom? Is he but the prisoned steam in the engine, pushing, escaping, stopped-his way ordered by valve and piston? or is he an indwelling, willing, ordering power? Law is the slave of Life. Is not a man's soul, as it dwells in his body, a dim-shadowing type of God in and throughout his universe? If you say, he has made things to go, set them going, and left them- then I say, If his machine interfered with his answering the prayer of a single child, he would sweep it from him-not to bring back chaos, but to make room for his child. But order is divine, and cannot be obstructive to its own higher ends; it must subserve them. Order, free order, neither chaos, nor law unpossessed and senseless, is the home of Thought. If you say, 'There can be but one perfect way', I answer, Yet the perfect way to bring a thing so far, to a certain crisis, can ill be the perfect way to carry it on after that crisis: the plan will have to change then. And as this crisis depends on a will, all cannot be in exact, though in live preparation for it. We must remember that God is not occupied with a grand toy of worlds and suns and planets, of attractions and repulsions, of agglomerations and crystallizations, of forces and waves; that these but constitute a portion of his workshops and tools for the bringing out of righteous men and women to fill his house of love withal." It is true that MacDonald is more specifically combating here the quasi-scientific determinism of the Age of Reason, and that he is specifically arguing for God's freedom to modify his own plans, but the argument also implies that there is necessarily an actual (not merely a simulated) dialog between God's will and ours. Yes, MacDonald retains a very strong view of God's sovereignty--albeit a relational, not a mechanical one. But (as in modern physics), I think that any model that is a good descriptor of reality must be a complexly nuanced one.
Jesus' sacrufice cleanses us of our guilt but oyr sinful natures remain. The fire purifies us until we understand the wrong we have done and no longer hold on to sin.
@@alwaysadawg6488 again if it's purifying why are we told to snatch people out of it? Jesus says it's better to lose a member of your body than to have your whole body cast into hell. If it was purifying wouldn't he want us to be cast into hell?
@@andrewjohnson4130 he actually didn't ever say "hell". Hell us a pagan word that comes from Norse religion. What Jesus actually said was "the Valley of Hinnom", which was a real place in Jerusalem thst the Jews viewed as a place if God's judgement and earthly destruction. Jesus was warning the Jews that not obeying God would lead to them being destroyed and disposed of in this valley. This happened in 70 AD when the Romans sacked the city. This was "within this generation" as Jesus said when He was saying "woe to you" to the Pharisees. The is purifying but you still want to avoid it. Punishment is never something you should go willingly into.
Why and when do we need a doctor? Because we do, and are sick. That’d be like saying ‘why do we need a court system or prison (with a remedial end) when we have treatments for drug addiction?’
I started thinking about HOW INTELLIGENT GOD IS. AND HOW STUPID IT IS FOR GOD TO CREATE SOMETHING TO TORTURE IT FOREVER IN THE END. An ALL INTELLIGENT BEING COULD FIND A WAY TO FORGIVE THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED HIM. He would discipline not as a Sadist but for our own GOOD.
Working my way though MacDonald’s fantasy, I would argue that his view is that eventually not everyone will choose to remain in Hell, e.g. “he was made for liberty and must not be left a slave.” (Lillith, ch. ‘I Sleep the Sleep’). This is the explicit view in the end of Lilith.
In a parable spoken by Jesus himself…Luke 17……in light of Universalism what then should we understand about the gulf between the rich man and Lazerus..? A gulf that is “fixed” and can’t be crossed.
Im open minded to this, but what does it mean then to "perish," when the apostles say God is not willing that any should perish... which seems to imply that some will perish...
how to you reconcile the fact that some people love evil and don't want to love, how did George reconcile that fact and what will be their fate? if they refuse God's love? do Jesus's words mean nothing?
*"Evil is not immortal."* Interestingly, humans are not immortal, either. ✴ _And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."_ (Genesis 3: 22; NET)
Jesus didn’t ‘mostly speak on hell’. Pastors SAY He did. It’s Gods goodness that draws us to Himself - not fear of a hell. If He’d been preaching hell whilst He was in earth He wouldn’t have had many followers.
He was actually a Restorationist rather than a Universalist. A Universalist doesn't believe in Hell. A Restorationist believes there well may be a Hell but that if anyone goes there they'll only stay long enough to repent.
When the church teaches eternal hell they're telling a lie on God giving God a black eye and doing exactly what he said the Jews were doing when they were sacrificing their children in the valley of hinnom he said they were profaning his holy name
Revelation is about the end of the Old Covenant at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. At the end, we see the New Jerusalem, the Church, come down from heaven. Something interesting happens at that time in Chapter 20. The wicked go to the Lake of Fire, but after they go, an invitation is given that whosoever thirsts may come and drink of the River of Life. Now . . . if this was the end of the world, a most people think, then this is a stupid invitation. If it was the end of the world, and the Lake of Fire is permanent hell, to whom is this invitation given? Certainly not the saved, for according to Christ, they already have rivers of living water within, right? It can only mean that the Lake of Fire is corrective, and when the sinner comes to recognize his thirst in this lake and cry out for water, the sinner will not be turned away. Relationship is the most misunderstood and wrongly exegetical book of the whole Bible.
@@ViolinistJeff I don’t. Robin Parry’s book The Evangelical Universalist goes into it but not with the depth a commentary on the entire book would have
Thank you a lot. But arent we underestimating evil here? What are we to do with the warnings in hebrews? What if the problem is not gods love but the hardened heart of humans unable to repent after a certain point without having god intruding and changing their free will?
The book of Hebrews (plus others) was written to the people of Israel only. All of that has been brought into fulfilling at the cross of Jesus. IT IS FINISHED! REPENT of what 🤔 How can a forgiven person ask for forgiveness ? What is there to 'repent' of if Jesus already took AWAY the sin of the entire world, with the promise never to think of that ever again ? John 1:29 +3:16,17 Hebrews 8:12 + 10:17 for the promises to never think of sin ever again. 1John 3:5 'And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin'. 1John 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake. REPENT simply means to change the way you think about who Gód is and us in Christ.
Father has reconciled the WORLD with Himself and is since then in His eternal rest. His desire is that we enter His rest as well and this we can only do once we come to the knowledge of the truth of the cross. HE is Son-conscious, not sin.
The problem is God ‘binds’ men into their sin… so that he can FORGIVE THEM. A good example of ‘human free will’ not being ‘untouchable’ to God is Pharaoh in the Exodus story.
Oh, the universalist likes to skirt around those essential scriptures about everlasting punishment. Oh yes, to them it is "correction" and not "punishment". Another words, purgatory, a refiner's fire, etc...that is only "age abiding". Well they definitely have trouble with Matthew 25:46 "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same word in the Greek, meaning: without end, never to cease, perpetual. So, the universalist can not admit that "eternal life" for the righteous is only "age abiding".
Christopher, forgive me if I've misunderstood your comment but, in my "scrap picked" research I find that the Greek word translated "eternal", or "everlasting" is aionios, carrying the clear meaning "age enduring". That would, to me at least, clearly point to a completion of purification at the appointed time, the end of that particular age.
@@micktulk Sorry, to burst your bubble, but you are delusional to think that is what the words "everlasting" and "eternal" mean in Greek. Best to scrap your reference sooner than later. Here is what the those words mean in the original Greek..."aionios"....without end, never to cease, for ever, perpetual. Hope this helps you.
@@christophergibson7155 Cool Christopher. I never had a bubble to worry about as I have subjective support for my persuasion and even though, I admit, accounts seem to be ambiguous my persuasion from God is... that what was deemed an eternal "hell" is in fact more akin to the concept of Purgatory. I recently had a distressing but valuable experience (in fact only yesterday) where I, through a foolish action in which I put God to the test, suffered an experience that I can only describe as a hopeless feeling of separation from God. Thankfully I repented and he showered his grace upon me. But I value it, knowing that his judgements are always to life and I have a more urgent and compassionate recognition of the plight of those who, not embracing truth, may be recipients of the experience I believe unbelievers will endure upon passing from this world. Again I must emphasise that in my view this will always be only temporary but could be an hour, a day or 10,000 years depending upon one's determination to concede to God's inclusion of them.
@@micktulk Yet, that is not what the Bible teaches. Purgatory, is a "refiner's fire" that most universalists embrace. So, it is not just exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church. No, there will be no second chances. No where found in scripture. As a matter of fact, we know God is love. But did you also know that God hates? One just has to do some valid Bible research to see this in: (Psalm 5:5 / Psalm 7:11 / Psalm 11:5 / Proverbs 6:16-19) And then we look to Revelation 6:16 We see the Lamb of God. A Lamb known for His meekness and gentleness. But what does it say here? "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB." The word "wrath" here means this in Greek: "orge"...anger, wrath, indignation. So, for another chance of salvation in eternity would ultimately mean that we have obtained our own salvation via suffering, making the cross of Jesus Christ of non effect. To extend grace to everyone is to undermine grace to anyone.
In talking about Macdonald one should use only the language of beauty; it is not good at all to use the currently overworked expression 'love is love', which is in the top 10 slogans to legitimise sodomy.
Why is it that we are so afraid to just think that hell doesn’t exist or that it’s not eternal, I am afraid because Jesus spoke in such clear terms, even telling us it was better to take an eye out of our face or cut our arm if it causes us to sin, besides, what if it really existed, we must dare to see things the way they are, not only that, but what about the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I tell you honestly, I do pray that God will abolish hell , if only that prayer is answered I will be happy forever
Unpopular view here: we don't know for sure that Jesus even said that. It was written decades after He died. But even if He did say that, it still doesn't prove that he'll is eternal.
It's not an accident that ORIGENISM has become popular in Evangelical and Protestant circles. A Unitarian view of Trinity naturally leads to Universalism. The early church taught a Monarchial view of the Trinity which is what you find in the Nicene Creed. Origen was condemned at the 4th and 5th church council. And his condemnation was reaffirmed by the sixth Council. So, Origen was condemned three times for his teaching on Universalism. Origen was also condemned for over 30 heresies. He taught the pagan doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. If you are a Protestant and you think you can rehabilitate Origen you probably don't understand the Orthodoxy of the early church. Recapitulation does not mean Universalism.
@@mattr.1887 So, is your soteriology based on telling God what he doesn't want to hear? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you elaborate?
I'm not actually sure what you're asking me. What does your question have to do with my original statement? Using the words "God" or "salvation" is begging the question. Who are you talking about when you use the word "God" and what is your doctrine of salvation? I can't assume that you just know what you're talking about.
If the word of God is not permeating your very being, if it's not keeping you repentant, away from sin and in obedience to Christ then you're just not saved. 🤷♂️ Those who believe contrary to the word of God are not saved.
How is this woke? The nurturing love of God is a very real trait, and quite feminine in nature, and I've heard it preached on by many in evangelical circles. Besides, if you think THIS is "woke" theology then you must be confusing this with Unitarian Universalism, which IS "woke" theology.
@@ironclad452 Certain feminist groups within the church are calling for this feminine depiction of God the father or should I say God the Mother. If I look up and see a Mother Goddess setting as part of The Holy Trinity I’d probably 🤢🤢🤮. As for woke theology, sorry my friend but that garbage infected most church’s, including the Catholic Church years ago.
Why is it that there is no glory to God here in the comments if Christians are supposed to be here giving thanks to God for saving all people? Answer: because none here are saved, and they believe lies. God requires repentance to inherit the kingdom of God, or you will go to hell. And yes, it's forever.
Your title name, "Love Unrelenting", misses the point entirely. And "Universalism" is not Christian. I am sure George Macdonald knows that "Universalism" is not true, of course. He was brought up in Calvinism and reacted to its wicked doctrines. But while he lived on earth he was not freed from it entirely. Because Calvinists deny free will and so do Universalists. They believe the same lie that man is not free to choose. Because if man is free to choose, then man can choose to deny God forever, and thereby be damned and eternally punished. So arguing that God is too loving to send people to hell is missing the point. George Macdonald is in heaven now, and would be happy to see this comment and would want you to burn such books as "Lilith". Consider also this: God will not and cannot make anyone suffer temporary torment in hell so that they will ultimately "choose" him. Why? Because they would never "choose" God that way. For that would be an endeavor to force and manipulate someone into loving God. And God cannot be loved unless he is loved freely.
Christians always mention free will. Read Romans 7. Paul says we are NOT free. We are bound by sin and are in slavery to sin. No one can " freely" choose.....that's the point. So no one chooses hell, they are already there!
@@DIBBY40 Romans 7 shows that there is the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit. The will of the flesh is shown to be contrary to the will of the spirit of Paul. This does not deny the free will to choose God or to deny God. If it were impossible to choose, then Paul would not be crying out, "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" But not everyone "freely wills" to be delivered from bondage. Some revel in their sin and want to be bound to it. That's a choice. And have you never read in Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." "Whosoever will", means that there is a choice. Jesus also said to some: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40. And also throughout the Bible, it is clearly showing that people have a choice. Some choose to be saved from sin and some choose to delight in their sin.
@@richardpaulson8280 You say that "some revel in their sin and WANT to be bound to it" (My emphasis on the word "want"). This is the part I disagree with. Mark 2:17 Jesus says they are sick. No one sane chooses to be sick. If you have flu, do you choose fever, aches, sweating and a cough? No. They are symptoms of the disease. Sin is suffering. If anyone revels in a sickness /sin they are a slave. They cannot see it for what it is and the suffering. Jesus said "Father forgive them. They KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". He knew they are sick, enslaved, blind etc.
@@DIBBY40 I agree with Mark 2:17, but what of those that do not repent? Some repent and some don't want to repent. In your thinking you are making no distinction between the two kinds of people that exist. There are the "children of God" and the "children of the devil". (See 1 John 3:10 and John 8:44). For the children of God, sin is a sickness in their flesh which they don't really want. And which sickness the evil spirits are responsible for, in them that are justifiable. Because the children of God were ignorantly in bondage to Satan, they are justifiable. The Bible speaks of the high priest having compassion on the ignorant, and calls sin an "infirmity", which is in the flesh. (See Hebrews 5:1-2). But that compassion or mercy does not extend toward the children of the devil. The "chastening" of God is for the children of God and is beneficial. As it is written in Hebrews 12:6-8, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Even here it is implied that God does not love the ones that do not endure chastening. These are the children of the devil. What then do the children of the devil receive? For they don't receive chastisement. It is also written in Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." "Fiery indignation" is not a cure for sickness. It is retributive punishment. Again this is clear in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, saying that Jesus will return, "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power..." Again in Nahum 1:2, it is written that, "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies." Of course, this is not chastisement or a cure for sin as a "sickness". In Luke 18:7-8, Jesus said, "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Clearly, and throughout the Scriptures, God does not just chasten, but he also repays with fury those that WANT sin.
@@IrishEddie317 sometimes people lack any intelligence at all. Then they open their mouth for the whole world to see. Just because you haven’t spent any time with God doesn’t mean there’s only one other option. Read the Bible to understand hell. Start right there in the Bible and watch what happens to your heart. Good luck, Eddie!
@@christophergibson7155 I didn't call him a pagan did I? I said the people who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment are following paganism and pagan ideas.
@@IrishEddie317 Well, I guess you missed the point I was making then. Jesus spoke of everlasting punishment and Hell more than anyone, so you in essence are calling Jesus a pagan.
I remember when I believed in eternal hell fire, I could not feel close to God because of how wrong that idea was, it made me not want to follow God. Once I learned of the truth, I now run to God and love God now. How can one not want to follow a God that has a plan to bring everyone to salvation.
Amen!
God’s holiness feels like hellfire to those who hate Him and are perishing.
God’s Holiness is healing and comforting to those in Christ.
Yes! How can we love a God knowing in the back of our mind He will allow us to be eternally tormented if we don’t have the correct theology?
Baptist here rededicated my life every few weeks re baptized many times finally gave up on trying to live a perfect life and found out supernaturally one after noon god just took me away in his spirit and just held me and showed me in every body’s eyes I saw god spark in every one s it’s I looked it to
There is a hell. Jesus talks about hell.
Mark 9:42-48 KJV
[42] And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. [43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [46] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [48] where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
0:05
I dream of the the day when all Sunday school teachers will openly teach kids in church the Gospel of Jesus Christ restored back to what it was originally. So beautiful...
If that ever happens, it will take time. Maybe hundreds of years or longer. Also I don't think ECT will ever go away completely.
@@mattr.1887 This is an interesting point.
I think mostly ECT has not been sufficiently challenged in public. When most people hear about Christian Universalism, at first it might sound ridiculous. However the more they think about it, the more they will see that Christian Universalism is true. All the way true.
I think one day when ECT is challenged it will be exposed as a hollow paper tiger. ECT is thoroughly unbiblical and idiotic given both the Old and New Testament.
@@mattr.1887 I call it endless conscious torment in place of eternal conscious torment since eternal means without beginning or end. I know it stems from the Greek word aiṓnios (αἰώνιος). I agree with you. It will take a while for people to unlearn this doctrine.
I am a Sunday school teacher and I teach Universalism. Put more specifically, Apokatastasis.
@@thethinplace That's awesome!
"When Protestants decided that three places in the afterlife were too many, they got rid of the wrong one." 👏👏👏
Never heard of this man until CS Lewis met him setting on that rock in the Great Divorce.
I was raised Baptist for the most part so I have pretty much always been taught once you are saved you will always be saved ,but now I am becoming convinced that we are all saved ,because how else could God be all in all 1 Corinthians 15:28 KJV
Agree ☺️ Hebrews 9:12
He went once for all into the [Holy of] Holies [of heaven], not by virtue of the blood of goats and calves [by which to make reconciliation between God and man], but His own blood, having found and secured a complete redemption (an everlasting release for us).
This is very thought provoking the way that this concept is fleshed out.
It’s sad that a lot of Christians are so preoccupied with being right; it all comes out of fear and Scripture says “there is no fear in love”
God is love and in Him we live and move and have our being.
I loved how CS Lewis brought MacDonald into the great Divorce
Have read it at least 25 times and keep it on hand. The Great Divorce is staggereing in impact.
Thanks for this. It took me 30 years before I was willing to consider Universalism. Like many, early in my walk I read a lot of CS Lewis, and I understood early on CS Lewis had a great admiration for George MacDonald, and I understood he was a Universalist. It was my unsated curiousity about MadDonald that led me to open my mind to actually listen to what Universalists really believe.
One usually thinks of universalists as soft, sentimental or lenient on sin but George MacDonald was probably the toughest preacher on sin I've ever heard though I haven't heard many preachers I admit. He certainly preached hell hot but temporary.
Judas is a prime example hell is not temporary
@@saraventura1333
Both heaven and hell are not a geographical place, but a state of mind. Judas is an example of someone who experienced hell (ín his soul). Remember this was before the cross.
I find that most of these discussions on Hell leave out Purgatory.
saraventura1333 Please provide your factual evidence that Judas will not one day reconcile. By no means am I defending Judas, but wiithout his role in this, Jesus doesn't die for your sins.
@@alwaysadawg6488 In a twisted, misguided way (plus Satan entered in) Judas thought he was doing the "right thing," forcing Jesus' hand to use His supernatural power to overcome the rule of the Romans and Pharisees. But Jesus only did what He heard from the Father -- His Kingdom was not of this world. Judas did not follow Jesus, and his act was meant for evil, but God meant it for good. Jesus asked, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." This is Father God's business, not ours.
He will not leave my soul in Sheol, neither will he suffer his Holy One to see corruption.
Love never fails! His mercy endures forever.
Thank you for collating these clips this way. Its a beautiful presentation!
Im doing a research project on early fantasy right now for a college course, and this video is really giving me some great thoughts! This MacDonald fella had some revolutionary ideas about god and humans relationship with them. Thanks for the vid!
Thank you. This was nicely put together, educational and edifying. I'm appreciative of the carefully chosen words. His Peace to ALL. I long for the age when every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Christ is Lord. Including stalin and hitler, etc. etc.
Stalin returned to his faith during ww2 I think.
This is great!!! I really enjoyed watching this!
This video confirms something i have felt deeply for so long and it frees my heart to love God even more!
To say that God need to create an Eternal Hell to condemn His creation, this is bad mouthing God as being a failure in His salvation. But then how would the Almighty God fails ? He will never fail. Nothing is impossible for God, even salvation beyond the grave.
Exactly. Some say God lets people decide for themselves which way they go, but ultimately it is God who determines what takes place in His creation. He is not willing that any should perish. Can we overrule God? No. Father God is Sovereign.
fantastic production... shows Gods love and holiness... God wins... and so do all created in his image... PTL!!
Comforting, immensely valuable .
B B But ... Didn't John Piper say that George MacDonald " wasn't a Christian" ? lol
That was actually his buddy Timothy Keller. I'm no fan of Piper, and he also apparently thinks that MacDonald was a heretic, but to give him his due, he doesn't respond in that video when Keller tries to egg him on to denounce MacDonald as an unbeliever.
John Piper teaches a disgusting, monstrous god - Piper is just wrong.
@@bradensmith5969 Eh, Piper. I won't say much.
@@jasonegeland1446 What do you mean?
@@newmannoggs Yes, I have watched that video for the first time since receiving your comment. I was really quoting what Ron Dart had said where Dart claimed that both Keller and Piper's position was that they didn't consider MacDonald to be a Christian.
Hey thats LOS podcast music at the end of the video! Cool.
If God knew from the beginning of time that He was going to save everyone, then why condemn us in the first place? Why create us, condemn us, and then save us again? Why not create us in a state of grace and maintain us forever in that same state of grace? What if He gave us free will--but only to make mistakes (which are simply corrected by the Truth), not free will to separate ourselves from Him for even an instant?
Thank you for allowing me space to ask this question. I know I'm asking it over and over again, but no one is responding. I think it's a good question--particularly in light of what George MacDonald talks about. I'd like a response, and I don't know where else to ask this question. Is there a better place where I might post this question?
I think universalists would vary in their responses. Many would say that, like in the story of the prodigal son, it is not God who condemns us but we who condemn ourselves and God who saves us from our self-destruction through love. And free will to make (moral, I'm assuming?) mistakes sounds very similar to free will to "separate ourselves from Him"--as long as we are simply talking relationally and we understand that it is a one-sided separation. God loves us from beginning to end, but (just like in the story of the prodigal son) we respond differently to his love at certain times "along the way".
Sorry if you are not getting the responses you are hoping for. There might be more active discussions in Facebook groups like the Christian Universalist Association: facebook.com/groups/212981733316
or the Evangelical Universalism (Invitation & Debate) group: facebook.com/groups/invitaiontoeu
There are many other groups or discussion boards out there as well.
Of course, feel free to comment on these videos, but I probably won't respond often as I can sometimes be busy with other things. Perhaps others will respond.
@@LoveUnrelenting Thanks for the response! I guess the next thing I grapple with is this: Are we made of something that can be separated from God? It's like saying we can use our free will to separate from the Higgs Field or gravitation. God is the Source of our Being. To separate from Being would be to not exist, so do we just pop in and out of existence--of our own free will?
I think Universalism is the most optimistic form of Christianity--but it's still not optimistic enough! It is still based on the idea that we can, of our own free will, separate ourselves from God, and God allows that. Why would a loving God allow His children to freely separate from Him? Have you ever lost a child in a grocery store? Would God want His child to experience the fear of not being able to find His parents?
Thanks for the suggestion of other blogs--maybe if I spread these questions around, I'll find a variety of good approaches! :)
@@stuartkenny3050 Stuart, we do NOT have free will in the first place. Free will is a total myth of the harlot church system. Free will believers deny the fact God has already created everything in the past, the present, and future. God is the only infinite being, God is the only Absolute Ruler of all eternity, and God is timeless, existing outside of time. Since God created everything, God therefore can and does know everything - because the only way to be able to know everything is to create everything. It amazes me how I have had people even argue with me God can foreknow our future without foreordaining it! Yes, God foreknows all future events ONLY because He Himself has already CREATED them all! He is not a fortune teller who looks into a crystal ball to see the future as determined by the supposed free wills of His finite living creatures. God ORDERS the future by creating it in its entirety. It is ALREADY created and predetermined by Him and Him alone! God inhabits all of eternity and infinity at once! There is no other way to know everything unless everything has already been created - and the only infinite Creator capable of creating infinite future events in advance is God. Free will utterly denies God's jurisdiction over His creation. Free will claims we are not under God's jurisdiction over His creation by claiming we can control ourselves independently of God. We create NOTHING. We ONLY do exactly what God has already created. He created every aspect of us, including all our cells in our bodies and all our thoughts. Our brain cells are entirely controlled by God, meaning we cannot even THINK unless God wills a particular thought He has already created to enter our minds. Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Ecclesiastes 3:11 "God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but He has also placed ignorance in the human heart so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives." God has placed ignorance in the hearts of all free will believers. These verses plainly teach God is the creator of everything, including every minute detail of our whole destinies. Our destinies are created by God and thus SEALED by God! Thank GOD for this, and for LITERALLY EVERYTHING! Nothing can happen except for what God has ALREADY created! His creative power is infinite! His creativity is infinite! He has nothing left to create because God exists outside of time - and all things of all eternity and all infinity are already His by His right of ownership.
@@stuartkenny3050 The fact God has already created everything TOTALLY disproves human free will. Considering God is infinite and unchangeable, not even God has free will to change Himself, or free will to destroy His perfection.
@@stuartkenny3050 Why God allows separation in the first place? God perhaps wants us to know Him effectively: through the way of suffering. We can delight in glory more fully when we suffer the most. This can be confirmed by our experience.
A view of the Bible ive never heard of. Im constantly learning different "teachings' of the Bible and why some people give up on the Bible. Ive decided we may never understand it all, but wont loose my faith in God🙏
That cruel old Calvinism that says one can be destined for eternal death, essentially before one is even born -- that contradicts a thousand Scripture passages -- and what kind of loving God would do that? Yes, there is punishment for the wicked, and chastisement and correction, each according to the offense, but how "forever and ever"?
It is grotesque reading the writings of the presumed evangelist Jonathan Edwards expressing in gleeful detail the eternal torment of the sinner. Is this any way to draw anyone to Jesus Christ, "scaring the hell" out of them? No wonder so many are put off by such a "gospel."
The Good News of Jesus Christ is *transformation,* that I can become a new person in Christ, where the Old Man and his sin can be put off and the New Man, Christ, can be put on, fashioned into a new creation. That we can become His followers (disciples) and brethren. What a calling! What a life of joy, expectation, and victory!
Thats my Evangel (Gospel) and I'm stickin' to it.
More and more im coming to this belief and I think even Satan will be redeemed , probably last .
Satan will for all of eternity never be redeemed, as he is the reason the Father had to give His only beloved Son and of course, the sorrow the entire human race experienced !
Jesus has dealt with him at the cross áfter He has took away the sin of the world.
Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
The name Satan áfter the cross has become a verb, a doing word. When we live from the darkness of our souls, we indeed is the satan (not Satan).
When a third of angels fell, God did nothing to save them.. but when óne human fell.. Gen 3:15
@@eekay5710 We shall have to wait until the consummation of all things to find out. That also is *God's business.* The Scripture does say, "EVERY knee SHALL bow, and every tongue [gladly, willingly] confess that Jesus is Lord. "Lord" means ownership. The last enemy to be conquered is death, then Christ will relinquish His Kingdom to the FATHER, who then will become All, IN all. 1 Cor. 15:22-28. All means ALL, the same "all" in Rom. 3 that says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." Just repeating what the Scripture says. I'm inclined to let God take care of all that. His thoughts are so far above my thoughts that I shouldn't even give my own opinion.
I don't think an honest Christian can read Unspoken Sermons and not be changed.
The Sovereignty of Love !
Really loved this 🙏🏼
This video conflates the issues of Calvinism with the issue of eternal torment (perhaps MacDonald did as well). The problem of Calvinism is that God actually predestines all human choices, including sin and rejection of Christ. Also (maybe a bit off topic), universalist determinism makes little more sense that Calvinist determinism, although the ending is happier. Any view of sin that's to make sense has to account for true (not compatibalist) human freedom.
Your point about freedom is an important one, and not at all off topic. In my reading of MacDonald, I am convinced that he did not believe that we are merely characters in God's script, but co-authors with him. Let me try to excerpt a long-ish quote from his sermon "Man's Difficulty Concerning Prayer":
"'How should any design of the All-wise be altered in response to prayer of ours!' How are we to believe such a thing? By reflecting that he is the All-wise, who sees before him, and will not block his path. Such objection springs from poorest idea of God in relation to us. It supposes him to have cares and plans and intentions concerning our part of creation, irrespective of us. What is the whole system of things for, but our education? Does God care for suns and planets and satellites, for divine mathematics and ordered harmonies, more than for his children? I venture to say he cares more for oxen than for those. He lays no plans irrespective of his children; and, his design being that they shall be free, active, live things, he sees that space be kept for them: they need room to struggle out of their chrysalis, to undergo the change that comes with the waking will, and to enter upon the divine sports and labours of children in the house and domain of their Father. Surely he may keep his plans in a measure unfixed, waiting the free desire of the individual soul!"
Shortly after this, he continues:
"What perfection in a dwelling would it be that its furniture and the paths between were fitted as the trays and pigeon-holes of a cabinet? What stupidity of perfection would that be which left no margin about God's work, no room for change of plan upon change of fact-yea, even the mighty change that, behold now at length, his child is praying! See the freedom of God in his sunsets-never a second like one of the foregone!-in his moons and skies-in the ever-changing solid earth!- all moving by no dead law, but in the harmony of the vital law of liberty, God's creative perfection-all ordered from within. A divine perfection that were indeed, where was no liberty! where there could be but one way of a thing! I may move my arm as I please: shall God be unable so to move his? If but for himself, God might well desire no change, but he is God for the sake of his growing creatures; all his making and doing is for them, and change is the necessity of their very existence. They need a mighty law of liberty, into which shall never intrude one atom of chance. Is the one idea of creation the begetting of a free, grand, divine will in us? and shall that will, praying with the will of the Father, find itself cramped, fettered, manacled by foregone laws? Will it not rather be a new-born law itself, working new things? No man is so tied by divine law that he can nowise modify his work: shall God not modify his? Law is but mode of life-action. Is it of his perfection that he should have no scope, no freedom? Is he but the prisoned steam in the engine, pushing, escaping, stopped-his way ordered by valve and piston? or is he an indwelling, willing, ordering power? Law is the slave of Life. Is not a man's soul, as it dwells in his body, a dim-shadowing type of God in and throughout his universe? If you say, he has made things to go, set them going, and left them- then I say, If his machine interfered with his answering the prayer of a single child, he would sweep it from him-not to bring back chaos, but to make room for his child. But order is divine, and cannot be obstructive to its own higher ends; it must subserve them. Order, free order, neither chaos, nor law unpossessed and senseless, is the home of Thought. If you say, 'There can be but one perfect way', I answer, Yet the perfect way to bring a thing so far, to a certain crisis, can ill be the perfect way to carry it on after that crisis: the plan will have to change then. And as this crisis depends on a will, all cannot be in exact, though in live preparation for it. We must remember that God is not occupied with a grand toy of worlds and suns and planets, of attractions and repulsions, of agglomerations and crystallizations, of forces and waves; that these but constitute a portion of his workshops and tools for the bringing out of righteous men and women to fill his house of love withal."
It is true that MacDonald is more specifically combating here the quasi-scientific determinism of the Age of Reason, and that he is specifically arguing for God's freedom to modify his own plans, but the argument also implies that there is necessarily an actual (not merely a simulated) dialog between God's will and ours. Yes, MacDonald retains a very strong view of God's sovereignty--albeit a relational, not a mechanical one. But (as in modern physics), I think that any model that is a good descriptor of reality must be a complexly nuanced one.
@@marklama6435Thank You for the quotes and thoughts.
If the fire purifies why do we need the blood of jesus? Why did jude say to snatch people out of the fire if its purifying?
Jesus' sacrufice cleanses us of our guilt but oyr sinful natures remain. The fire purifies us until we understand the wrong we have done and no longer hold on to sin.
@@alwaysadawg6488 again if it's purifying why are we told to snatch people out of it?
Jesus says it's better to lose a member of your body than to have your whole body cast into hell. If it was purifying wouldn't he want us to be cast into hell?
@@andrewjohnson4130 he actually didn't ever say "hell". Hell us a pagan word that comes from Norse religion. What Jesus actually said was "the Valley of Hinnom", which was a real place in Jerusalem thst the Jews viewed as a place if God's judgement and earthly destruction. Jesus was warning the Jews that not obeying God would lead to them being destroyed and disposed of in this valley. This happened in 70 AD when the Romans sacked the city. This was "within this generation" as Jesus said when He was saying "woe to you" to the Pharisees. The is purifying but you still want to avoid it. Punishment is never something you should go willingly into.
@@alwaysadawg6488 and Jude didn't really mean fire?
Why and when do we need a doctor? Because we do, and are sick. That’d be like saying ‘why do we need a court system or prison (with a remedial end) when we have treatments for drug addiction?’
13:17 - The consuming fire of God in its most dreadful form. The fire without light. The darkness visible. The black flame.
I started thinking about HOW INTELLIGENT GOD IS. AND HOW STUPID IT IS FOR GOD TO CREATE SOMETHING TO TORTURE IT FOREVER IN THE END. An ALL INTELLIGENT BEING COULD FIND A WAY TO FORGIVE THOSE WHO CRUCIFIED HIM. He would discipline not as a Sadist but for our own GOOD.
Working my way though MacDonald’s fantasy, I would argue that his view is that eventually not everyone will choose to remain in Hell, e.g. “he was made for liberty and must not be left a slave.” (Lillith, ch. ‘I Sleep the Sleep’). This is the explicit view in the end of Lilith.
In a parable spoken by Jesus himself…Luke 17……in light of Universalism what then should we understand about the gulf between the rich man and Lazerus..? A gulf that is “fixed” and can’t be crossed.
Christ is the bridge. Until we accept him, we cannot cross it.
Im open minded to this, but what does it mean then to "perish," when the apostles say God is not willing that any should perish... which seems to imply that some will perish...
Thank you it speaks!!!
Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2)
how to you reconcile the fact that some people love evil and don't want to love, how did George reconcile that fact and what will be their fate? if they refuse God's love? do Jesus's words mean nothing?
God is all-knowing and all-powerful. Do you think He is not able to convince even the hardest hearts of His truth, even if it takes quite some time?
Beautiful. Evil is not immortal.
*"Evil is not immortal."* Interestingly, humans are not immortal, either.
✴ _And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil, he must not be allowed to stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."_ (Genesis 3: 22; NET)
@ Yahweh is a liar. Has always been
Does Mcdonald not believe in an actual hell which Jesus spoke mostly about? I'm confused...
Jesus didn’t ‘mostly speak on hell’. Pastors SAY He did. It’s Gods goodness that draws us to Himself - not fear of a hell.
If He’d been preaching hell whilst He was in earth He wouldn’t have had many followers.
He was actually a Restorationist rather than a Universalist. A Universalist doesn't believe in Hell. A Restorationist believes there well may be a Hell but that if anyone goes there they'll only stay long enough to repent.
When the church teaches eternal hell they're telling a lie on God giving God a black eye and doing exactly what he said the Jews were doing when they were sacrificing their children in the valley of hinnom he said they were profaning his holy name
I love the idea of Universalism, and am curious..
However, what about Revelation?
Revelation is a beautiful universalist text
Revelation is about the end of the Old Covenant at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. At the end, we see the New Jerusalem, the Church, come down from heaven. Something interesting happens at that time in Chapter 20. The wicked go to the Lake of Fire, but after they go, an invitation is given that whosoever thirsts may come and drink of the River of Life.
Now . . . if this was the end of the world, a most people think, then this is a stupid invitation. If it was the end of the world, and the Lake of Fire is permanent hell, to whom is this invitation given? Certainly not the saved, for according to Christ, they already have rivers of living water within, right? It can only mean that the Lake of Fire is corrective, and when the sinner comes to recognize his thirst in this lake and cry out for water, the sinner will not be turned away. Relationship is the most misunderstood and wrongly exegetical book of the whole Bible.
@@jonostake Do you know of any good universalist textual studies of the whole book of Revelation, chapter by chapter?
@@ViolinistJeff I don’t. Robin Parry’s book The Evangelical Universalist goes into it but not with the depth a commentary on the entire book would have
@@jonostake More homework for us to do then.👍
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Thank you a lot.
But arent we underestimating evil here? What are we to do with the warnings in hebrews? What if the problem is not gods love but the hardened heart of humans unable to repent after a certain point without having god intruding and changing their free will?
The book of Hebrews (plus others) was written to the people of Israel only. All of that has been brought into fulfilling at the cross of Jesus. IT IS FINISHED!
REPENT of what 🤔 How can a forgiven person ask for forgiveness ? What is there to 'repent' of if Jesus already took AWAY the sin of the entire world, with the promise never to think of that ever again ?
John 1:29 +3:16,17
Hebrews 8:12 + 10:17 for the promises to never think of sin ever again.
1John 3:5 'And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin'.
1John 2:12 I write to you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for His name’s sake.
REPENT simply means to change the way you think about who Gód is and us in Christ.
Father has reconciled the WORLD with Himself and is since then in His eternal rest. His desire is that we enter His rest as well and this we can only do once we come to the knowledge of the truth of the cross.
HE is Son-conscious, not sin.
The problem is God ‘binds’ men into their sin… so that he can FORGIVE THEM. A good example of ‘human free will’ not being ‘untouchable’ to God is Pharaoh in the Exodus story.
I love this track on the vid i wish i knew the source
Happily, all the music tracks are listed in the end credits
@@LoveUnrelenting thank you, appreciate your work.
Check out Jane Lead, another universalist
Love you even if I completely disagree with your ideas. Problem is probably somatic. שלום
Do you believe Revelation 21:8? and Matthew 25:46?
Oh, the universalist likes to skirt around those essential scriptures about everlasting punishment. Oh yes, to them it is "correction" and not "punishment". Another words, purgatory, a refiner's fire, etc...that is only "age abiding".
Well they definitely have trouble with Matthew 25:46 "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same word in the Greek,
meaning: without end, never to cease, perpetual. So, the universalist can not admit that "eternal life" for the righteous is only "age abiding".
Christopher, forgive me if I've misunderstood your comment but, in my "scrap picked" research I find that the Greek word translated "eternal", or "everlasting" is aionios, carrying the clear meaning "age enduring". That would, to me at least, clearly point to a completion of purification at the appointed time, the end of that particular age.
@@micktulk Sorry, to burst your bubble, but you are delusional to think that is what the words "everlasting" and "eternal" mean in Greek. Best to scrap your reference sooner than later. Here is what the those words mean in the original Greek..."aionios"....without end, never to cease, for ever, perpetual. Hope this helps you.
@@christophergibson7155 Cool Christopher. I never had a bubble to worry about as I have subjective support for my persuasion and even though, I admit, accounts seem to be ambiguous my persuasion from God is... that what was deemed an eternal "hell" is in fact more akin to the concept of Purgatory. I recently had a distressing but valuable experience (in fact only yesterday) where I, through a foolish action in which I put God to the test, suffered an experience that I can only describe as a hopeless feeling of separation from God. Thankfully I repented and he showered his grace upon me. But I value it, knowing that his judgements are always to life and I have a more urgent and compassionate recognition of the plight of those who, not embracing truth, may be recipients of the experience I believe unbelievers will endure upon passing from this world. Again I must emphasise that in my view this will always be only temporary but could be an hour, a day or 10,000 years depending upon one's determination to concede to God's inclusion of them.
@@micktulk Yet, that is not what the Bible teaches. Purgatory, is a "refiner's fire" that most universalists embrace. So, it is not just exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church. No, there will be no second chances.
No where found in scripture. As a matter of fact, we know God is love. But did you also know that God hates?
One just has to do some valid Bible research to see this in: (Psalm 5:5 / Psalm 7:11 / Psalm 11:5 / Proverbs 6:16-19) And then we look to Revelation 6:16 We see the Lamb of God. A Lamb known for His meekness and gentleness. But what does it say here? "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB." The word "wrath" here means this in Greek: "orge"...anger, wrath, indignation. So, for another chance of salvation in eternity would ultimately mean that we have obtained our own salvation via suffering, making the cross of Jesus Christ of non effect. To extend grace to everyone is to undermine grace to anyone.
Book ... ...... ......... AREA UNSOLVED: Streets of the community
Can't the woman in the video talk about George McDonald extemporaneously?
She probably wanted to make sure that she didn't forget any important point that she desired to make.
@@TheHumbuckerboy Perhaps she could use cue cards.
In talking about Macdonald one should use only the language of beauty;
it is not good at all to use the currently overworked expression 'love is love',
which is in the top 10 slogans to legitimise sodomy.
💚💚💚
Anglicans also have missals
One other comment, the Jesus that preached to love one another, can you picture Jesus running a torture chamber??????
Isn't the title an oxymoron? Isn't universalism an anti-Christian doctrine?
Why is it that we are so afraid to just think that hell doesn’t exist or that it’s not eternal, I am afraid because Jesus spoke in such clear terms, even telling us it was better to take an eye out of our face or cut our arm if it causes us to sin, besides, what if it really existed, we must dare to see things the way they are, not only that, but what about the story of the rich man and Lazarus, I tell you honestly, I do pray that God will abolish hell , if only that prayer is answered I will be happy forever
U do realise Jesus wasn't being literal right?
Check out the true Hebrew and Greek scriptures and you will see that there is no hell in the Bible from cover to cover
Unpopular view here: we don't know for sure that Jesus even said that. It was written decades after He died. But even if He did say that, it still doesn't prove that he'll is eternal.
James, how we know?
@@mattr.1887 because Jesus spoke in parables unto the lost sheep of isreal and without a parable he spoke not
It’s not only man redeemed in the figurative fire but also Satan and his demons restored back to god
It's not an accident that ORIGENISM has become popular in Evangelical and Protestant circles. A Unitarian view of Trinity naturally leads to Universalism. The early church taught a Monarchial view of the Trinity which is what you find in the Nicene Creed. Origen was condemned at the 4th and 5th church council. And his condemnation was reaffirmed by the sixth Council. So, Origen was condemned three times for his teaching on Universalism. Origen was also condemned for over 30 heresies. He taught the pagan doctrine of absolute divine simplicity. If you are a Protestant and you think you can rehabilitate Origen you probably don't understand the Orthodoxy of the early church. Recapitulation does not mean Universalism.
Randy, the alternative is that man saves himself by telling God what He wants to hear.
@@mattr.1887 So, is your soteriology based on telling God what he doesn't want to hear? I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you elaborate?
Are the following evangelical and protestant: Sergei Bulgakov, David Bentley Hart, Brad Jersak ?
I'm not actually sure what you're asking me. What does your question have to do with my original statement? Using the words "God" or "salvation" is begging the question. Who are you talking about when you use the word "God" and what is your doctrine of salvation? I can't assume that you just know what you're talking about.
@@stefang.9763 No, They would be considered modern day Ecumenists.
If the word of God is not permeating your very being, if it's not keeping you repentant, away from sin and in obedience to Christ then you're just not saved. 🤷♂️
Those who believe contrary to the word of God are not saved.
Good, universalists agree!
What does it mean to be saved?
“Father Mother God! …Wow! Now we must suffer woke theology. 🤦♂️
How is this woke? The nurturing love of God is a very real trait, and quite feminine in nature, and I've heard it preached on by many in evangelical circles. Besides, if you think THIS is "woke" theology then you must be confusing this with Unitarian Universalism, which IS "woke" theology.
@@ironclad452 Certain feminist groups within the church are calling for this feminine depiction of God the father or should I say God the Mother. If I look up and see a Mother Goddess setting as part of The Holy Trinity I’d probably 🤢🤢🤮. As for woke theology, sorry my friend but that garbage infected most church’s, including the Catholic Church years ago.
@@ironclad452 what's the alternative to "woke" theology? "Sleepy" theology? "Dead" theology? Hm...🤔 Useless theology.
Why is it that there is no glory to God here in the comments if Christians are supposed to be here giving thanks to God for saving all people? Answer: because none here are saved, and they believe lies. God requires repentance to inherit the kingdom of God, or you will go to hell. And yes, it's forever.
What does it mean to be saved?
Someone hasn’t read the Greek or Hebrew and it shows. Brother, do not make yourself a goat.
Your title name, "Love Unrelenting", misses the point entirely. And "Universalism" is not Christian. I am sure George Macdonald knows that "Universalism" is not true, of course. He was brought up in Calvinism and reacted to its wicked doctrines. But while he lived on earth he was not freed from it entirely. Because Calvinists deny free will and so do Universalists. They believe the same lie that man is not free to choose. Because if man is free to choose, then man can choose to deny God forever, and thereby be damned and eternally punished. So arguing that God is too loving to send people to hell is missing the point. George Macdonald is in heaven now, and would be happy to see this comment and would want you to burn such books as "Lilith". Consider also this: God will not and cannot make anyone suffer temporary torment in hell so that they will ultimately "choose" him. Why? Because they would never "choose" God that way. For that would be an endeavor to force and manipulate someone into loving God. And God cannot be loved unless he is loved freely.
Christians always mention free will. Read Romans 7. Paul says we are NOT free. We are bound by sin and are in slavery to sin. No one can " freely" choose.....that's the point. So no one chooses hell, they are already there!
@@DIBBY40 Romans 7 shows that there is the will of the flesh and the will of the spirit. The will of the flesh is shown to be contrary to the will of the spirit of Paul. This does not deny the free will to choose God or to deny God. If it were impossible to choose, then Paul would not be crying out, "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" But not everyone "freely wills" to be delivered from bondage. Some revel in their sin and want to be bound to it. That's a choice. And have you never read in Revelation 22:17, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." "Whosoever will", means that there is a choice. Jesus also said to some: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40. And also throughout the Bible, it is clearly showing that people have a choice. Some choose to be saved from sin and some choose to delight in their sin.
@@richardpaulson8280 You say that "some revel in their sin and WANT to be bound to it" (My emphasis on the word "want"). This is the part I disagree with. Mark 2:17 Jesus says they are sick. No one sane chooses to be sick. If you have flu, do you choose fever, aches, sweating and a cough? No. They are symptoms of the disease. Sin is suffering. If anyone revels in a sickness /sin they are a slave. They cannot see it for what it is and the suffering. Jesus said "Father forgive them. They KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO". He knew they are sick, enslaved, blind etc.
@@DIBBY40 I agree with Mark 2:17, but what of those that do not repent? Some repent and some don't want to repent. In your thinking you are making no distinction between the two kinds of people that exist. There are the "children of God" and the "children of the devil". (See 1 John 3:10 and John 8:44). For the children of God, sin is a sickness in their flesh which they don't really want. And which sickness the evil spirits are responsible for, in them that are justifiable. Because the children of God were ignorantly in bondage to Satan, they are justifiable. The Bible speaks of the high priest having compassion on the ignorant, and calls sin an "infirmity", which is in the flesh. (See Hebrews 5:1-2). But that compassion or mercy does not extend toward the children of the devil. The "chastening" of God is for the children of God and is beneficial. As it is written in Hebrews 12:6-8, "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons." Even here it is implied that God does not love the ones that do not endure chastening. These are the children of the devil. What then do the children of the devil receive? For they don't receive chastisement. It is also written in Hebrews 10:26-27, "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." "Fiery indignation" is not a cure for sickness. It is retributive punishment. Again this is clear in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, saying that Jesus will return, "in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power..." Again in Nahum 1:2, it is written that, "God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies." Of course, this is not chastisement or a cure for sin as a "sickness". In Luke 18:7-8, Jesus said, "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Clearly, and throughout the Scriptures, God does not just chasten, but he also repays with fury those that WANT sin.
Aaaah, so you believe in works-based salvation. I see!
Blasphemy
Then he never understood rabbi Yeshua in the first place, radical Torah observance not its abandonment - that was his teaching!
Stop calling universalist’s CHRISTIAN. They are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Those who believe in eternal hell are following paganism. How Christian is that?
@@IrishEddie317 sometimes people lack any intelligence at all. Then they open their mouth for the whole world to see. Just because you haven’t spent any time with God doesn’t mean there’s only one other option. Read the Bible to understand hell. Start right there in the Bible and watch what happens to your heart. Good luck, Eddie!
@@IrishEddie317 How can you possible call the Lord Jesus Christ a pagan?
@@christophergibson7155 I didn't call him a pagan did I? I said the people who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment are following paganism and pagan ideas.
@@IrishEddie317 Well, I guess you missed the point I was making then. Jesus spoke of everlasting punishment and Hell more than anyone, so you in essence are calling Jesus a pagan.
He was a frankly boring fantasy writer hence a Christian cult favourite.
Wdym
@@jonahwaisman3204 Christians believe the boring Jesus fantasy so they love boring fantasy writers.
100% agree. I could never get into his books - I must be too simple minded, I guess. 😉