The U-Turn Orbit and the J. Sikora address different markets, and I respectfully suggest that a person who can afford the J. Sikora is not in the market for the Orbit, and vice versa, and so the decision of which someone should purchase is not an either or choice. I shop at brick and mortar records stores on almost a weekly basis. I see first hand the number of young people and women shopping for vinyl, and whom likely own the Orbit, Audio-Technica, or similar turntables. And I'm happy as a lark those turntables at those price points are available to them. I'd argue those turntables are far more important to the vinyl revival than the higher end turntables we own and love.
One clear issue with high-end turntables and audio equipment is that they are often overbuilt and engineered to such an extreme that they end up looking visually unappealing. Their designs typically lack subtlety and elegance, resulting in a look that is more imposing than refined.
Totally reasonable as always Ken. I would only add that setup (as you mention for turntables, but also speaker placement) as well as component compatibility can also have a big impact on overall system sound quality.
Love this video! Information is Power! I am on a limited budget so I am rocking with a JVC QL-A7 turntable running through a Pioneer SX-727 receiver connected to a pair of Dynaco A-35 speakers. My Theory at this point is, they created the music I love in the 60's and 70's why not use the equipment from that time period, created to reproduce it.
I'm emphatically not an audiophile, Ken. But always open to your suggestions. My old banger turntable (Rega Planar 25) suits me fine. An upgrade of speakers I may consider... 🤔
It is quite simple if budget is limited and music matters. By an reasonable priced turntable and the best digital streaming you can afford. This gives you immediately access to a lot of music 😊. Yes analog is better but much much more expensive.
Re. the Mofi turntable, have you ever heard a Well Tempered turntable Ken? There’s not much mechanical noise from that design. Love your channel by the way, great work 🎶🎶👍
Thanks for the vid, Ken, and it really is all about lowering the noise floor and distortion as much as possible. For example, I was stunned with the improvement in all sound parameters when I added an HRS isolation platform beneath my Clear Audio Performance DC turntable. Initially a skeptic, I couldn’t deny the difference though I do think you get to a point of diminishing returns and that’s when being a discerning audiophile and not a ‘hot brand’ chaser makes the difference.
Good afternoon ☕️🍩 Having attended the Toronto AudioFest..where turntable set ups used in the room ranged between $6K to $260K ..with the associated chain of electronics…it was great sounding to be sure..but I don’t feel the need to build an addition to my house to accept some of these top tier systems. Great video 🍻
If you want the Best Source for a small rack of selected recordings. A 18.000 $ Reel2Reel machine 2track 15ips iec, or a turntable, arm, cartridge kit of same value? Assuming record and mastertape copies are at same $.
You said in a previous video that you "have been poor your whole life." But you have 100k worth of turntables as well as other expensive equipment, and probably tens of thousands of dollars worth of vinyl? That's an interesting concept of "poor."
yes. working middle class. As a reviewer I have tons of review gear to use in reviews (look at my reviews at Stereophile.com), while I own my basic system.
I guess it's fair to say it's all down to $$$.....and assigning how much of your budget goes to each component. Many folks are looking to buy a system as a one off purchase with no plans for upgrading. I bought a Linn in 1975 and the school of thought then was pretty much 70 - 75% of your hard earned on the t/t.....thankfully we've moved on from that and as turntables have improved a more balanced approach has taken root. My old Linn needed upgrading and a new cartridge which would've been way outside my budget. Factor in my retirement and of course my hearing ain't what it used to be. So a coupla years ago traded my Old LP12 in for a Pro ject Debut Pro and problem solved with added bonus of user replaceable stylus. Veteran audio journalist KK wrote eloquently about that particular spinner and he was spot on. Relief......cancelling the TechDas Airforce 0 as we speak 😉
Well I think what people often confuse with Hi-Fi is, and I made a video about it, is this idea of better. That by spending more money and getting fancier gear you're going to get better sound, and sometimes you do, but I switched it up and made the argument that it's not so much a matter of better sound, it's just a matter of different sound. At the end of the day a lot of times that different sound for some people wouldn't necessarily be better. Luckily over the last decade of me being in the hobby and ingratiating myself I've had the opportunity to hear numerous high-end systems, some of which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and they sound good, but does that mean that they're better?
Hi Ken...good to see you again since we met this past June at the JRC. Question: what about the record itself? I assume that if you're going to "audio-engineer" your listening experience, the quality of the record pressing has to matter as well. Also, don't forget...if you upgrade the TT, you must upgrade the cables, the receiver and, eventually, the speakers. It gets super expensive. My take...enjoy what you can on your budget.
If you have the $$$ and the rest of system compliments it, get the best, which is usually among the most expensive. In any event, remember the table/arm/cartridge combo is the most important part of any system. Splurge on that regardless of your budget.
Actually the room is the most important component of an audio system. Of course the speakers must be properly positioned and room properly treated. Beyond that, some argue the speakers are more important than the source.
It's a myth that Rega don't think VTA is important. They do; they even sell spacers for allowing you to adjust VTA. Their position is that keeping the tonearm assembly rigid is *more* important and of *more* benefit than adjusting VTA, for the way *their* turntables are engineered. They could provide adjustable VTA on their arms, but it would be detrimental to the sound for the way their arms and their turntables are designed, and they have over 50 years of engineering experience to prove that.
That's the truth, whether people want to believe it or not! Analogue formats especially a pure mechanical format like LPs are, the better the equipment, the more information you get out of it! Digital formats were designed to play good on any equipment, because the resolution of it is limited to bits and digits! Analogue is different, the audio in analog (pure analog) has an infinite amount of audio and requires the best tracking to retrieve as much information as possible! Even today there's no equipment that can retrieve all the information in an analogue source! That's just science!😊
Analog is essentially an open-to-interpretation conversation between the medium and the machine, whereas digital is pure data and is not open to interpretation.
I think this is way overdone. I am still using 2 Dual and 1 AR turntables with Ortofon cartridges. Sounds pretty good to me. Plus most of the music I listen to I stream. I love vinyl but there is too much monkey business.
Leave it to some of these audiophiles to make "getting great sound" such a hard thing or such a rocky complicated journey. It can be done cheap, it can be done expensive. It can be done with analog, it can be done with digital. It can be done with up to date equipment, it can be done with select vintage equipment. It might NOT be able to done in small rooms. Which according to many "Viewer Systems Videos" it looks like most audiophiles have smallish rooms, or rooms big enough in one way, but too narrow or something, so they have to choose between restriction of the sound's openness & plaster coloration OR speakers too close together to get a realistic stereo spread. Don't ever envy anyone who has a narrow room; no matter what equipment they have. Their stereo is not up to par. In any case, it looks like most audiophiles feel the need to keep upgrading and spending obscene amounts of money. It isn't spent to NO avail; but it is spent to a fraction of that avail, compared to if they had a proper sized room for listening to music. If your sound is REALLY good, upgrading goes from a priority to nowhere near a priority; since you really like the sound and the thought that you don't want to ruin it by changing anything enters your mind. I don't think that most audiophiles ever get to that point; that level of sound quality. They're looking for better, because what's already there doesn't totally please them. Whether they buy a $650 turntable or or one 100 times more is decided for them, by their finances, 90% of the time. Even if you have really good sound, there are levels above that. How much more fun would it be to have those levels of sound quality, should be the question, and how much money would you be willing to spend to have it?
I think its possible to get good sound in a small room; but not great sound. It depends on your idea of what "great" is. I have a very big room in all dimensions. I sit quite a ways back; and when I lean forward 2 feet or so, the instruments sound more like 2 dimensional cardboard cutouts; when I lean back they gel into a believable 3 dimensiobal entity. Getting speakers 7 to 8 feet out from the wall behind them puts more depth, space and air between the instruments than tubes do over solid state. A $20,000 preamp will not give you that much space & air between instruments as having your speakers in such free space. With walls close to speakers you are dealing with early reflections, plaster coloration and all kinds of undesirable effects. You cannot break the laws of physics. However I did have to add subs with the speakers that far out from the wall behind them. Subs are easy to integrate; unlike what many audio scarers say.
Neither.. get a CD player. Quote: The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium. - Rudy Van Gelder
glad to see the LP go? Guess you have noticed the 10 years and running vinyl resurgence. Vinyl outsells CD, and is widely popular across the world. Crawl back in your hole...
Very well said and I follow all of these reviewers you mentioned because of their experience and integrity. What do you think is the 'Goldilocks Zone" of price/reward?
@Fair enough. I asked the wrong question. "Goldilocks Zone" is more aptly when the technology, components and build quality reach a point beyond which the changes are more incremental and maybe just aesthetic. I can feel myself digging a hole here.
@@mitchparker7652 I think everyone will have their own position on this and numerous factors come into play. Personally, I think around the 2K per component level (here in the UK) there's some seriously good sounding gear. Of course there's always better but for me that's threshold where things start to get pretty impressive and each successive rung on the ladder really starts to cost quite a bit more.
To paraphrase the late great Robin Williams: Having anything like 65K to squander on a turntable is God's way of telling you that you've got too much money.
I prefer sources of info like ASR, Dr Floyd Toole & Ethan Winer for information on audio and equipment. People like Darko, Steve Gutenberg and the various audiophile publications and reviewers are best used as a source of entertainment rather than factual info. Let’s be honest diminishing returns kick in fast and they kick in hard. Much more so than many audiophiles care to admit to themselves.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455nope not really, I am yet to measure my systems in room response and implement DSP room correction. That up to now is a step too far for me. If it sounds good, it is good. When it comes to making purchases and choosing equipment now though I’m not interested in the word salads that journalists come up with anymore. Sorting the wheat from the chaff and knowing what is real and what is nonsense is priceless. Also educating myself on how we are pre biased regarding what we perceive depending on the scenario has been very enlightening.
Rumble is a non issue on turntables built with quality bearing assemblies and low cogging A/C motors or DC motors, even inexpensive turntables have decent components. Wow and flutter may turn its ugly head but that's another story.
This might not be popular in the audiophile community but spending 40 grand or higher on a turntable is in my opinion completely unnecessary I watch these audiophiles and most are older men who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a turntable Guess what! As you get older you lose so much hearing It happens to everyone Spending thousands on thousands of dollars is great but completely unnecessary for a great sounding system
@ Good equipment does improve performance but spending 40 thousand dollars is outrageous You will hear more of the music on good equipment but you still don’t hear as good as you did when you were 25 years old
Explain to me why at 63 I’m hearing things in my records that I didn’t hear when I played them first time around 40 years ago. Okay, maybe my 23 year old self would hear even more, but it doesn’t mean I shouldn’t upgrade my deck to whatever I can personally justify. Spending 40k on a turntable is only crazy if it’s your last 40k. If it’s a drop in your investment portfolio ocean and you fancy something extraordinary, then why not? I’m betting you’ll hear a difference from your tatty old 10k rig. 😊
The U-Turn Orbit and the J. Sikora address different markets, and I respectfully suggest that a person who can afford the J. Sikora is not in the market for the Orbit, and vice versa, and so the decision of which someone should purchase is not an either or choice. I shop at brick and mortar records stores on almost a weekly basis. I see first hand the number of young people and women shopping for vinyl, and whom likely own the Orbit, Audio-Technica, or similar turntables. And I'm happy as a lark those turntables at those price points are available to them. I'd argue those turntables are far more important to the vinyl revival than the higher end turntables we own and love.
A Japanese record player found in cheap shop, a very good stylus, good French speaker, quality vinyls and that’s paradise…
Agreed
One clear issue with high-end turntables and audio equipment is that they are often overbuilt and engineered to such an extreme that they end up looking visually unappealing. Their designs typically lack subtlety and elegance, resulting in a look that is more imposing than refined.
Totally reasonable as always Ken. I would only add that setup (as you mention for turntables, but also speaker placement) as well as component compatibility can also have a big impact on overall system sound quality.
Love this video! Information is Power! I am on a limited budget so I am rocking with a JVC QL-A7 turntable running through a Pioneer SX-727 receiver connected to a pair of Dynaco A-35 speakers.
My Theory at this point is, they created the music I love in the 60's and 70's why not use the equipment from that time period, created to reproduce it.
I'm emphatically not an audiophile, Ken. But always open to your suggestions. My old banger turntable (Rega Planar 25) suits me fine. An upgrade of speakers I may consider... 🤔
It is quite simple if budget is limited and music matters. By an reasonable priced turntable and the best digital streaming you can afford. This gives you immediately access to a lot of music 😊. Yes analog is better but much much more expensive.
Re. the Mofi turntable, have you ever heard a Well Tempered turntable Ken? There’s not much mechanical noise from that design. Love your channel by the way, great work 🎶🎶👍
yes thanks! Well Tempered is wonderful equipment
Thanks for the vid, Ken, and it really is all about lowering the noise floor and distortion as much as possible. For example, I was stunned with the improvement in all sound parameters when I added an HRS isolation platform beneath my Clear Audio Performance DC turntable. Initially a skeptic, I couldn’t deny the difference though I do think you get to a point of diminishing returns and that’s when being a discerning audiophile and not a ‘hot brand’ chaser makes the difference.
Good afternoon ☕️🍩
Having attended the Toronto AudioFest..where turntable set ups used in the room ranged between $6K to $260K ..with the associated chain of electronics…it was great sounding to be sure..but I don’t feel the need to build an addition to my house to accept some of these top tier systems.
Great video 🍻
If you want the Best Source for a small rack of selected recordings.
A 18.000 $ Reel2Reel machine 2track 15ips iec, or a turntable, arm, cartridge kit of same value? Assuming record and mastertape copies are at same $.
You said in a previous video that you "have been poor your whole life." But you have 100k worth of turntables as well as other expensive equipment, and probably tens of thousands of dollars worth of vinyl? That's an interesting concept of "poor."
yes. working middle class. As a reviewer I have tons of review gear to use in reviews (look at my reviews at Stereophile.com), while I own my basic system.
I guess it's fair to say it's all down to $$$.....and assigning how much of your budget goes to each component. Many folks are looking to buy a system as a one off purchase with no plans for upgrading. I bought a Linn in 1975 and the school of thought then was pretty much 70 - 75% of your hard earned on the t/t.....thankfully we've moved on from that and as turntables have improved a more balanced approach has taken root. My old Linn needed upgrading and a new cartridge which would've been way outside my budget. Factor in my retirement and of course my hearing ain't what it used to be. So a coupla years ago traded my Old LP12 in for a Pro ject Debut Pro and problem solved with added bonus of user replaceable stylus. Veteran audio journalist KK wrote eloquently about that particular spinner and he was spot on. Relief......cancelling the TechDas Airforce 0 as we speak 😉
Well I think what people often confuse with Hi-Fi is, and I made a video about it, is this idea of better. That by spending more money and getting fancier gear you're going to get better sound, and sometimes you do, but I switched it up and made the argument that it's not so much a matter of better sound, it's just a matter of different sound.
At the end of the day a lot of times that different sound for some people wouldn't necessarily be better. Luckily over the last decade of me being in the hobby and ingratiating myself I've had the opportunity to hear numerous high-end systems, some of which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and they sound good, but does that mean that they're better?
Hi Ken...good to see you again since we met this past June at the JRC. Question: what about the record itself? I assume that if you're going to "audio-engineer" your listening experience, the quality of the record pressing has to matter as well. Also, don't forget...if you upgrade the TT, you must upgrade the cables, the receiver and, eventually, the speakers. It gets super expensive. My take...enjoy what you can on your budget.
great video. to learn. kudos to u thank u sir
If you have the $$$ and the rest of system compliments it, get the best, which is usually among the most expensive. In any event, remember the table/arm/cartridge combo is the most important part of any system. Splurge on that regardless of your budget.
Actually the room is the most important component of an audio system. Of course the speakers must be properly positioned and room properly treated. Beyond that, some argue the speakers are more important than the source.
It's a myth that Rega don't think VTA is important. They do; they even sell spacers for allowing you to adjust VTA. Their position is that keeping the tonearm assembly rigid is *more* important and of *more* benefit than adjusting VTA, for the way *their* turntables are engineered. They could provide adjustable VTA on their arms, but it would be detrimental to the sound for the way their arms and their turntables are designed, and they have over 50 years of engineering experience to prove that.
I’ve 5 turntables and one is a linn LP12 and it’s as good as I need it’s amazing
I bet!!
Enjoying the election, Comrade ? 😅
That's the truth, whether people want to believe it or not! Analogue formats especially a pure mechanical format like LPs are, the better the equipment, the more information you get out of it! Digital formats were designed to play good on any equipment, because the resolution of it is limited to bits and digits! Analogue is different, the audio in analog (pure analog) has an infinite amount of audio and requires the best tracking to retrieve as much information as possible! Even today there's no equipment that can retrieve all the information in an analogue source! That's just science!😊
Interesting that we have the technology to store sound in an analog but we don't have the technology to fully retrieve it as you say.
Analog is essentially an open-to-interpretation conversation between the medium and the machine, whereas digital is pure data and is not open to interpretation.
@@Hrdvsion Bit rate and sampling rate will directly affect the resolving power of the DAC which in turn will affect the overall presentation.
I think this is way overdone. I am still using 2 Dual and 1 AR turntables with Ortofon cartridges. Sounds pretty good to me. Plus most of the music I listen to I stream. I love vinyl but there is too much monkey business.
Leave it to some of these audiophiles to make "getting great sound" such a hard thing or such a rocky complicated journey. It can be done cheap, it can be done expensive. It can be done with analog, it can be done with digital. It can be done with up to date equipment, it can be done with select vintage equipment. It might NOT be able to done in small rooms. Which according to many "Viewer Systems Videos" it looks like most audiophiles have smallish rooms, or rooms big enough in one way, but too narrow or something, so they have to choose between restriction of the sound's openness & plaster coloration OR speakers too close together to get a realistic stereo spread. Don't ever envy anyone who has a narrow room; no matter what equipment they have. Their stereo is not up to par.
In any case, it looks like most audiophiles feel the need to keep upgrading and spending obscene amounts of money. It isn't spent to NO avail; but it is spent to a fraction of that avail, compared to if they had a proper sized room for listening to music. If your sound is REALLY good, upgrading goes from a priority to nowhere near a priority; since you really like the sound and the thought that you don't want to ruin it by changing anything enters your mind. I don't think that most audiophiles ever get to that point; that level of sound quality. They're looking for better, because what's already there doesn't totally please them. Whether they buy a $650 turntable or or one 100 times more is decided for them, by their finances, 90% of the time. Even if you have really good sound, there are levels above that. How much more fun would it be to have those levels of sound quality, should be the question, and how much money would you be willing to spend to have it?
Not in small rooms? Hooey. I have a small room, as do most folks in NYC. Two steps back
I think its possible to get good sound in a small room; but not great sound. It depends on your idea of what "great" is. I have a very big room in all dimensions. I sit quite a ways back; and when I lean forward 2 feet or so, the instruments sound more like 2 dimensional cardboard cutouts; when I lean back they gel into a believable 3 dimensiobal entity. Getting speakers 7 to 8 feet out from the wall behind them puts more depth, space and air between the instruments than tubes do over solid state. A $20,000 preamp will not give you that much space & air between instruments as having your speakers in such free space. With walls close to speakers you are dealing with early reflections, plaster coloration and all kinds of undesirable effects. You cannot break the laws of physics. However I did have to add subs with the speakers that far out from the wall behind them. Subs are easy to integrate; unlike what many audio scarers say.
Neither.. get a CD player.
Quote: The biggest distorter is the LP itself. I've made thousands of LP masters. I used to make 17 a day, with two lathes going simultaneously, and I'm glad to see the LP go. As far as I'm concerned, good riddance. It was a constant battle to try to make that music sound the way it should. It was never any good. And if people don't like what they hear in digital, they should blame the engineer who did it. Blame the mastering house. Blame the mixing engineer. That's why some digital recordings sound terrible, and I'm not denying that they do, but don't blame the medium. - Rudy Van Gelder
glad to see the LP go? Guess you have noticed the 10 years and running vinyl resurgence. Vinyl outsells CD, and is widely popular across the world. Crawl back in your hole...
Very well said and I follow all of these reviewers you mentioned because of their experience and integrity. What do you think is the 'Goldilocks Zone" of price/reward?
By that do you mean the point where you pay more and get no beneficial improvement? I honestly don’t know what that is.
@Fair enough. I asked the wrong question. "Goldilocks Zone" is more aptly when the technology, components and build quality reach a point beyond which the changes are more incremental and maybe just aesthetic. I can feel myself digging a hole here.
@@mitchparker7652 I think everyone will have their own position on this and numerous factors come into play.
Personally, I think around the 2K per component level (here in the UK) there's some seriously good sounding gear. Of course there's always better but for me that's threshold where things start to get pretty impressive and each successive rung on the ladder really starts to cost quite a bit more.
To paraphrase the late great Robin Williams: Having anything like 65K to squander on a turntable is God's way of telling you that you've got too much money.
The money ain't gonna spend itself
I prefer sources of info like ASR, Dr Floyd Toole & Ethan Winer for information on audio and equipment.
People like Darko, Steve Gutenberg and the various audiophile publications and reviewers are best used as a source of entertainment rather than factual info.
Let’s be honest diminishing returns kick in fast and they kick in hard. Much more so than many audiophiles care to admit to themselves.
Yeah, you only care about the measurements. How boring.
@@kenmicallefjazzvinylaudiop6455nope not really, I am yet to measure my systems in room response and implement DSP room correction. That up to now is a step too far for me. If it sounds good, it is good.
When it comes to making purchases and choosing equipment now though I’m not interested in the word salads that journalists come up with anymore. Sorting the wheat from the chaff and knowing what is real and what is nonsense is priceless. Also educating myself on how we are pre biased regarding what we perceive depending on the scenario has been very enlightening.
@@michaelb9664 hundreds of 1000s watch and learn from darko, guttenberg, even that moron andrew robinson. but you know better of course
I just buy the most expensive stuff possible, i don't care how it sounds as long as if its expensive and looks like jewellery.
Oligarch!!
I don't agree as long as the turntable revolves accurately with no rumble its all down to the pickup and cartridge
Rumble is a non issue on turntables built with quality bearing assemblies and low cogging A/C motors or DC motors, even inexpensive turntables have decent components. Wow and flutter may turn its ugly head but that's another story.
@@67Pepper So its all about looks not sound quality?
@@ianship5058 Where did I say that?
This might not be popular in the audiophile community but spending 40 grand or higher on a turntable is in my opinion completely unnecessary I watch these audiophiles and most are older men who spend tens of thousands of dollars on a turntable Guess what! As you get older you lose so much hearing It happens to everyone Spending thousands on thousands of dollars is great but completely unnecessary for a great sounding system
Guess you didn’t watch the video
Funny, at age 66 I now hear more from my records than I did 30 years ago with inferior equipment.
@ Good equipment does improve performance but spending 40 thousand dollars is outrageous You will hear more of the music on good equipment but you still don’t hear as good as you did when you were 25 years old
Explain to me why at 63 I’m hearing things in my records that I didn’t hear when I played them first time around 40 years ago. Okay, maybe my 23 year old self would hear even more, but it doesn’t mean I shouldn’t upgrade my deck to whatever I can personally justify.
Spending 40k on a turntable is only crazy if it’s your last 40k. If it’s a drop in your investment portfolio ocean and you fancy something extraordinary, then why not? I’m betting you’ll hear a difference from your tatty old 10k rig. 😊
@@pnichols6500 exactly
Yikes
Let’s spend all the money solving something that’s already been solved! Digital file.
Not a solution, a left turn into the abyss!
Digital files are great. To carry your CV. Not for analog acoustics.