Volkswagen Jetta ignition key stuck in ignition or won't turn

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  • Опубліковано 16 січ 2025

КОМЕНТАРІ • 131

  • @slvshy666
    @slvshy666 3 роки тому +30

    Owning a VW has been extremely frustrating. I'm never looking back to this brand when i finally get rid of this shitbox.

    • @AntTooStoned
      @AntTooStoned 3 роки тому +2

      Ikr Fucc VW

    • @DiegoGonzalez0
      @DiegoGonzalez0 Рік тому +3

      Same here

    • @SF004
      @SF004 8 місяців тому +1

      I agree. I have a 2012 jetta. So far broken strut. Muffler hinge rusted out, and now this the ignition switch. lol luckily I went to the dealer with a replacement ignition cylinder. They swapped out the lock portion of it for about $70 starts easy once again. The little things make it quite annoying. I’m glad i don’t have to hotwire to start anymore.
      Other than that the car runs great. Nearly 420,000.

    • @slvshy666
      @slvshy666 8 місяців тому

      @@SF004 wow at that many miles I wouldn't have been so upset. My car had this issue and it hadn't even reached 80k. I drive a Toyota Avalon now and couldn't be happier. Not a single issue in the same time my VW had been in and out of the shop. And doesn't burn a DROP of oil no matter how I drive. Definitely never looking back.

  • @rjright7373
    @rjright7373 5 років тому +22

    This ignition fault is a perfect example of VW not standing behind their product & customers. I was totally impressed with my VW Sports wagon until this happened and no recalls, argh!.
    This is a serious safety and hefty financial issue where you cant shut your car off. Sadly most people will have to foot the bill. Thanks for the video as I will do this one myself and the tips will help.

  • @brandonpayne4000
    @brandonpayne4000 2 роки тому +1

    Mike the Painter. I recognize voices and appreciate the time/effort you put into your videos. Always very informative with clear, concise explanations.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  2 роки тому

      Thanks 👍

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  2 роки тому

      I actually have three channels yeah. The painting business is what I do to make a living I've always been a automotive hobbyist and was a mechanic before I did that

  • @Char69Theta
    @Char69Theta 4 роки тому +3

    I did drill the hole and took that spring and pin out on the side. You do have to take all the guts out from the ignition cylinder before you drill that out. It does work! I didn’t have to order a new part and my car is working like a champ! It does take some time to gut it out and put everything back together in the cylinder after you drill the pin and spring out but it works!

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      cool

    • @rickcockcroft7590
      @rickcockcroft7590 4 роки тому

      Yep, just did mine today. Drilling it out worked just fine with an easy out to undo the bolts , but I did take the whole mechanism apart ( easy to do) and cleaned it out. There were 4 small metal junk parts in there

    • @hardcore4476
      @hardcore4476 Рік тому

      @@rickcockcroft7590 pot metal chunks.. 🤦🏻

    • @hardcore4476
      @hardcore4476 Рік тому +1

      Do you have a link or forum link sharing this job bye chance? Where did you learn to do this?

  • @zedopomart2444
    @zedopomart2444 4 роки тому +8

    Drilling three holes in the ignition cylinder and removing a couple pins and springs DOES work. Have done it myself, Drilled one hole where he has it drilled, removed the cap that was previously there. It reveals a spring and a pin. Then drill one hole directly below the first hole, have the centers of the holes be approx 15 mm away from each other. Then you will reveal a spring that you can remove. After this the lock should move a little. To ensure it doesn’t get jammed, drill one last hole the same size as the first hole. Drill this hole on the direct opposite side of the housing from the first hole. Ensure that the last hole is drilled below the middle line of the ignition cylinder. You will drill into the lock cylinder approx 7 mm. You will remove a pin possibly. These pins are approx 3 mm long and 1/2 mm wide, they are cylindrical. The pin removed from the first hole will be one cylinder type and a cube/block like multiple blocks put together, but tiny. You then then try hammering on the back side of the cylinder and irrigating the holes with penetration oil, although be careful as it may clump up in the lock and will jam it. Blowing with air fist may be required. After this the lock will be able to turn full capacity with no issues.

    • @uap3757
      @uap3757 4 роки тому +8

      Lol my dudes out here cracking safes irrigating with oil and chit

    • @tommygun1262
      @tommygun1262 2 роки тому +1

      Seriously trying to understand your dribble is painful how about posting what your dribbling about so to save us the PAIN

  • @ajaykc977
    @ajaykc977 5 років тому +3

    Thank you so much for making this video in such details and do much information. Really do appreciate it.

  • @supernova4760
    @supernova4760 2 роки тому +6

    This part has a design flaw. The spring and pin eventually chip away in pieces. You’ll know internal damage occurred because it will start to bind and eventually it will fly out of its seat and get stuck. There are people who got stranded at gas stations. People who had to leave their cars running hours on end due to stuck keys. Remove the locking pin from this stupid design and your problem is solved.

    • @hardcore4476
      @hardcore4476 Рік тому

      Do you have a link to show this procedure bye chance?

  • @quarterpoundmusic
    @quarterpoundmusic Рік тому +1

    Ok so ive got everything apart im trying to remove the old lick switch but i cannot turn the key to the on position to line up the holes to i sert a paper clip to get the ignition lock out. What did you do to get the key to turn?

    • @KarlRamel
      @KarlRamel 6 місяців тому

      Hey! I do have the same problem. Did you figure it out yet?

    • @ThaRogueTiger
      @ThaRogueTiger 5 місяців тому

      Not sure if you're still trying to tackle this mess lol but I just got my whole ignition assembly out and mine would not line up with the dot either. After about 20 minutes of trying to slightly force the key to rotate to that position for the paperclip I got it to move enough to the point where I could force it all the way and my key didn't snap and could still be pulled out. Dealing with the paperclip part now!

  • @SueDohman
    @SueDohman 4 роки тому +7

    Seems as if this may fall into the category under: Overengineering; The issue of a major complication & subsequent failure of a designated part to properly function as originally intended, that occurs due to the failure of a specific & often times, otherwise insignificant part, that is usually housed within a larger part. An issue that would’ve been nonexistent, had a simpler & more practical, yet, equal in terms of proficiency, choice of design been applied & thus committed to during its initial manufacturing phase.
    e.g. ironically, the very same logic could & should be applied when considering the definition put forth, above, & by me, for the very purpose of illustrating the intentional, overcomplicating of what very easily could otherwise be a much simpler & much shorter explanation, in terms of defining what it means to over-engineer something.

  • @TheMasterLoafer
    @TheMasterLoafer 5 років тому +6

    How did you get the ignition out of locking cylinder? You didn’t show that part. I have He new locking cylinder but key won’t turn far enough to get ignition part out with the paper clip truck. Need help today if you see this message. Thanks.

    • @markhealey3930
      @markhealey3930 4 роки тому

      How did you get around this. I have the same situation!!

    • @The91civicmoneypit
      @The91civicmoneypit 3 роки тому

      Same issue. Can't get the key to rotate to to line to two holes up

    • @tukcity
      @tukcity 3 роки тому +1

      Did you figure it out?

    • @TheMasterLoafer
      @TheMasterLoafer 3 роки тому +1

      @@tukcity Yes... I did. Thank you for asking. :)

    • @tukcity
      @tukcity 3 роки тому +1

      @@TheMasterLoafer do you mind sharing? My mechanic is still in the same predicament for days…

  • @danramz78
    @danramz78 3 роки тому +1

    Great video and lots of help all good to R&R but now have air bag code and all was fine before?? Any ideas?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  3 роки тому

      not properly plugged in or if the battery was not disconnected you need to use a Ross tech to reset the air bag. not sure on the procedure. but look on ross tech website.

  • @Alex-wf9pq
    @Alex-wf9pq 2 роки тому +3

    I’m having the same problem on my 2013 vw jetta s .. the key goes in but won’t turn to start the car on like if it’s the wrong key or something but it’s not the wrong key .. I need help

    • @sheilamygoodness
      @sheilamygoodness 8 місяців тому

      Did you ever figure it out?? My Jetta is doing the EXACT same thing!!!!

  • @rulexi
    @rulexi Рік тому +1

    Anyone identify the name of the replacement harness he mentions at 4:30? Part number?

  • @zackzimmer7167
    @zackzimmer7167 2 роки тому +3

    How did you remove your break away bolts?

    • @cheaptoafault
      @cheaptoafault 2 роки тому +1

      Use a punch & hammer; they aren't too tight in the ignition assembly and you can slowly tap them counterclockwise out

  • @tyjohnson7428
    @tyjohnson7428 3 роки тому +2

    Was there a trick to switch the barrel? I got it out but it won't "click" back in and I can't see what I'm doing wrong

  • @ninja_terdle8050
    @ninja_terdle8050 3 роки тому +2

    Heyyy soo... just a question. You said your key wouldn't turn to the on position, that's what mine is doing. How did you get the ignition lock cylinder out of the housing without turning the key to the on position? I have my ignition lock housing out of the car but I can't get the lock cylinder off to save my life.

    • @james-ted-garland
      @james-ted-garland Рік тому

      That's what I need to know

    • @ninja_terdle8050
      @ninja_terdle8050 Рік тому

      @@james-ted-garland so.. I may not be of much help but I’ll try. I had everything out of the car but couldn’t get my lock cylinder(black part) off bc the lock housing was jammed. Dude, I literally turned the key as much as I could without breaking it and HAMMERED with a steel hammer the little plunger looking thing that moves with the key. I hammered it until it was completely flat and eventually got my key to be able to turn back and forth so I could follow another tutorial on how to get the lock cylinder off. Once I was able to get the key to turn to the on position the lock housing came off pretty easily with a tutorial on how to remove it. I’ll link it if I can find it.

    • @ninja_terdle8050
      @ninja_terdle8050 Рік тому +2

      @@james-ted-garland ua-cam.com/video/WxDCHEcgaaA/v-deo.html this is the video on how to remove it. The part that I hammered the shit out of is the rectangular piece you can see as soon as the vid starts. It moves up and down with the turning of the key. That part was jammed in mine and wouldn’t allow my key to turn to on so I could remove the cylinder. Obviously the cylinder is no good anyway so hammering is fine since you’re getting a new one anyway, or should be getting a new one anyway. I hope it helps bud. It was a pain for me but I finally got it. Godspeed my friend. Lol

    • @ninja_terdle8050
      @ninja_terdle8050 Рік тому

      The housing was no good. That’s what I meant, not the cylinder.

  • @dianajacobs4017
    @dianajacobs4017 3 роки тому +8

    Yeah let me just take apart my steering wheel at the gas station real fast just to get my key out of the ignition....

    • @markklawiter9666
      @markklawiter9666 3 роки тому

      I had a lot of frustration with key removal in my '11 Jetta WITH AUTO TRANSMISSION. Tried powdered graphite, light scraping of the key, wiggling the steering wheel, I found "slightly" better luck inserting the key with the FOB buttons facing down. Finally I was just leaving it unlocked with the key inserted. Then a happy accident happened! With the engine off, I depressed the shift lever button while rocking the lever back slightly, heard a "click" as it seated into park, and ¡voila!

    • @SLJB8
      @SLJB8 2 роки тому

      Don't drive a Jetta then bitch on here ya dummy. 🤦🤷🏼

    • @elissalauryn5686
      @elissalauryn5686 2 роки тому

      😂😂😂😂😂

  • @Damontravels
    @Damontravels 2 роки тому +1

    It worked thank you

  • @SLJB8
    @SLJB8 2 роки тому +2

    Locksmith here, you are incorrect sir. Yes it does work. You just drilled in the wrong spot.

    • @AMarr-gs4kh
      @AMarr-gs4kh 2 роки тому +1

      What state do you work at

    • @SLJB8
      @SLJB8 2 роки тому +2

      @@AMarr-gs4kh I work in a constant state of exhaustion, why do you ask?

    • @jasongentili485
      @jasongentili485 Рік тому

      Sir, if I replace just the middle piece. I keep the coil that the key goes into do I need programming

    • @SLJB8
      @SLJB8 Рік тому

      @@jasongentili485 so long as you transferred the old microchip from the old key, to the new key and kept the old coil the same, you won't need programming. However if you're trying to use the new microchip in the new head of the key, or if you replace any part of the immobilizer you will need programming.

  • @dannysa503
    @dannysa503 6 років тому +2

    How did you get the snap up bolts out?? I don't know how to get those bolts out!! 😐
    I also can't get that plastic housing out of the way so i have clear look of the bolts! !

    • @wonsdorung8822
      @wonsdorung8822 5 років тому +1

      I just replaced my ignition cylinder and I used a screw extractor to remove the bolts. The bolts are not made of hard metal, so you should be able to drill a pilot hole for the screw extractor fairly easily. Make sure you used good quality screw extractors, ones that have a lot of aggressive bite.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      @@wonsdorung8822 yea pretty soft good point

    • @Char69Theta
      @Char69Theta 4 роки тому

      I used the speed outs extractors. It was pretty easy to drill them out. Just had to buy new bolts from the depot. I took the ignition to make sure new bolts fit and had the right thread

  • @vincentbaldini3964
    @vincentbaldini3964 3 роки тому +1

    Ive fot that problem but one question i cant get the key out so how do I turn my car off

  • @85krash
    @85krash 3 роки тому

    will a bad ignition cylinder make the cluster flicker? or would that be the computer where the ignition gets plugged into?
    not like a low to regular surge, I mean an actual flicker, low and normal about say 10 times within 3 seconds.

    • @85krash
      @85krash 3 роки тому

      also my part from the dealer cost $400. Replacing it myself. I have the same problem you had.

  • @DjStiv3
    @DjStiv3 4 роки тому +1

    Mine is the EXACT same i cant turn.
    140 but thats just the tumbler thing..what about them cloding it? Will you use your own key still after or do you need new keys and new door handlekeys?!?!?!?!?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      I used the same lock cylinder and keep your old coder. goes in the new part.

    • @DjStiv3
      @DjStiv3 4 роки тому +1

      @@Mikefngarage ill probably have someone else be doing it but if i cmget a new tumbler are you saying i may be fine swapping out this coder thing to the new one and then same key can be used and everything?
      It goes in perfectly i just cant get it to turn. You think doing this will fix it?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      @@DjStiv3 yea for sure. part of it is to remove the tumbler. from your old lock. if I remember right watch my video and the other guys video on the link It was not that hard except for removing the break off tamper proof bolt.

    • @DjStiv3
      @DjStiv3 4 роки тому +1

      @@Mikefngarage ok thank you very much. Im going to question a mechanic friend of my dads he specializes in german cars first and go from there. From what i can tell i think i will be going this route, order the part and swap same as you. Hopefully it all works out. Recently spent alot on suspension so car drives like newthen speakers all around and this happens. Fml bro. Lol thanks again. Ill let ya know what happens or edit my comment if all goes well so if others have my issue of not turning/twisting to turn car on, will know what happened.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      @@DjStiv3 ok for sure should be good with just that part. takes about 2 to 3 hours depending on how easy you can drill that old bolt out.

  • @chuckrangel7207
    @chuckrangel7207 Рік тому

    Thanks for the Vid. This is another example of why I would never buy a VW again. Over engineering !!! WTF.

  • @gambit_toys6554
    @gambit_toys6554 Рік тому

    I wanna see how much vw gets in selling parts

  • @TobiToxic666
    @TobiToxic666 5 років тому +1

    What screw size did you use to take off the circuit board

  • @chrisrohde7696
    @chrisrohde7696 2 роки тому +1

    edit please ffs. Original comment was posted @ time stamp 1:45 and for some reason I'm still watching and @ 4:48. You are talking about something completely different. You go from pointing at the ignition key, as if it were the cause, straight to talking about how hard it was for you to remove a clip to a circuit board and then to a plug that you removed two pins and soldered straight to the board. So much banter with absolutely no useful content other than making me want to find a way to block every video you have made and will ever make. The title is click bait and I fell for it.

  • @cnix3297
    @cnix3297 5 років тому +2

    Anyway you can share that original video?

  • @tallisherbody1
    @tallisherbody1 4 роки тому +2

    My 2014 VW jetta key won't come out. When I go to work I have to leave the key in the ignition. How do I remove it please

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      this problem on this one is probably what needs to be done. probably gotta replace the part int this video. part is available after market at I think Autohaus Az.

    • @Alexaelese
      @Alexaelese 3 роки тому

      Hey, can i have an update on what you did?
      Also mike !!
      I’m reading through these comments and i wow this is gonna be a lil stressful. i have family members that have knowledge on most of this. However, they aren’t professionals. i have a VW 2012 jetta & i can turn my car on and off, the key just won’t come out, i also have to leave my key in when i go to work. When i unplug the battery the key comes out. Any advice, when i start this process?

    • @Alexaelese
      @Alexaelese 3 роки тому

      and is this even the same issue?

    • @markklawiter9666
      @markklawiter9666 3 роки тому

      @@Alexaelese Automatic trans?With foot on brake depress the shift lever button and move the shifter back a little. You might hear a click. It worked for THIS frustrated 2011 Jetta owner...

  • @Chocolate_Galaxy
    @Chocolate_Galaxy 4 роки тому +1

    Spoke to a guy from a key repair shop who says he's done this before and said I don't need a new part? Is that possible?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      yes some guys drill in some place and fix it I tried that and it did not work for mine. part is pretty cheap ummmm Maybe Autohauz Az is cheap I think cant remember who has it. worth it to have the part there.

  • @josephrowan6997
    @josephrowan6997 6 років тому +3

    How did you initially get the snap out bolts out the 1st time you took the lockout housing out?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  6 років тому +2

      drill and easy out set from harbor freight tools. snap bolts are soft and they drill easy and the easy out bites really good.

  • @burrenlops916
    @burrenlops916 5 років тому +3

    PLEASE PLEASE tell me how do you unscrew the bolts on the minute 6:24 ? I have my Jetta disassembled , just that part is stopping me to replace the new key cylinder

    • @blackflagjoe
      @blackflagjoe 5 років тому

      Mike Fn Garage
      6 months ago
      drill and easy out set from harbor freight tools. snap bolts are soft and they drill easy and the easy out bites really good.

    • @jasongentili485
      @jasongentili485 Рік тому

      Easy. They aren’t tight grab a screw driver and chisel til it’s loose

  • @mronemanband1
    @mronemanband1 4 роки тому +1

    Ignition lock and cylinder and you will need to have it programmed so just call a automotive lock smith to do it.

    • @supernova4760
      @supernova4760 2 роки тому +2

      No need to reprogram anything. Just move the transponder coil to new key fob.

    • @jasongentili485
      @jasongentili485 Рік тому

      Thank you very much. I’m having this problem for the second time. The first time it happened I broke the key in the ignition. But now I’m gonna keep it in the ignition and just put it on the new part

  • @russellbrown9960
    @russellbrown9960 6 років тому +1

    What is the name of the part you ordered?

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  6 років тому +3

      I believe it was called ignition switch steering lock housing. They are all over google thanks for watching good luck with fixing it

    • @russellbrown9960
      @russellbrown9960 6 років тому +1

      Thanks, I got it. I appreciate the couple additions you added from your experience. It's gonna make it way easier if it ever happens again.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  6 років тому +1

      yea the other guy has a pretty comprehensive install video but I just added some of my ideas for guys doing the job. I also used his video to do mine.

    • @russellbrown9960
      @russellbrown9960 6 років тому +1

      Mike F did you ever find out exactly what it is in the housing that fails?

    • @robehaas
      @robehaas 6 років тому +1

      Once you got the cylinder away from the steering column, were you able to turn the key to line up the holes so you could insert paper clip in and pull switch out of cylinder?

  • @northernlight4614
    @northernlight4614 6 років тому +1

    I JUST GOT NOTICE THAT THIS IS NOW COVERED UNDER WARRANTY
    April 2018
    Extended Warranty Coverage - Steering Column Lock Housing
    Certain 2012-2013 Model Year VW Jetta, Beetle and Beetle Convertible Vehicles

  • @x-man4702
    @x-man4702 6 років тому

    Great video! Thanks for posting.

  • @ericluba6287
    @ericluba6287 5 років тому +2

    Hey I have an 06 Volkswagen Jetta I've had the same issue and now I can't turn it off what do I do

    • @MrOmar.
      @MrOmar. 4 роки тому

      Me too, what did you do?

    • @ericluba6287
      @ericluba6287 4 роки тому

      @@MrOmar. Until I was able to swap out the ignition I would pull the fuel relay and then disconnect the battery Then when I needed to go somewhere I would just connect the battery turn the ignition I did that for a long time

  • @Velvethamma
    @Velvethamma 6 років тому +2

    What an ordeal that must have been.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  6 років тому

      yup almost a whole day of work and towing. works perfectly now and my soldering

  • @matthewmoe
    @matthewmoe 2 роки тому +1

    Tell me how get the 20% online 🤣👌🏽

  • @evertspies3345
    @evertspies3345 2 роки тому +1

    Removing the airbag still not clear even with your video. Seems I just have to fiddle with the flat head screw driver until it get under or on top of that clip.

  • @The1028lagarto
    @The1028lagarto 5 років тому +2

    I have the new ignition and the new Cylinder lock but my question is if i have to re program the new part.

    • @emmanuelmkabane9778
      @emmanuelmkabane9778 5 років тому +1

      you dont need to..just plug n play

    • @mronemanband1
      @mronemanband1 4 роки тому +1

      @@emmanuelmkabane9778 BS you need to re progam even when the dealer does it !

    • @jasongentili485
      @jasongentili485 Рік тому +1

      @@mronemanband1 I believe you’re wrong. If you keep the coil where the key goes into you plug and play.

  • @AcTofGoD210
    @AcTofGoD210 6 років тому +1

    How did you get the key to turn to 90 to remove it from the old one? I have removed the assembly but can't turn it all the way to remove the cylinder from the steering lock.

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  6 років тому

      mine turned off but would not start. I would just start drilling until I got the key out

    • @AcTofGoD210
      @AcTofGoD210 6 років тому +1

      @@Mikefngarage I had someone drill it out. Turns out I had some nice broken pieces inside the steer lock. FYI.. my guy was able to drill the whole lock out so I could use the original part. He said he does it once a week for VW vehicles here in San Antonio.

  • @cathy40
    @cathy40 5 років тому +1

    My key is stuck & yhe car is still running. Taking the -battery cable off didnt work

    • @benclarke7056
      @benclarke7056 5 років тому

      take the fuse out with 100 written on it

    • @mronemanband1
      @mronemanband1 4 роки тому

      you have to remove both positive and negative ! LOL

  • @DjStiv3
    @DjStiv3 4 роки тому +1

    Whats the cost with dealer? Jesus this is stupid. I really dont want to be paying so much for something so stupid. Hows it work. New keys too? They can make code eoth old key like wtf will happen!??

    • @Mikefngarage
      @Mikefngarage  4 роки тому

      thet should be able to remove the key lock portion. make take some drilling but it does come out.

    • @DjStiv3
      @DjStiv3 4 роки тому +1

      @@Mikefngarage had to drill. Guy did for me. Was a pain and noone in town wants to touch vw. So now a shop hopefully can fix black tumbler part.
      Otherwise with vin and title bring to dealer they will order new black tumbler piece for 143 with tax and suppsoedly dont need to code jt. and if you need the large metal part too thats 193dollars. Almost 350 if its the entire thing then. Jesus. Vw wants 880 dollars to do it and replace. Mother of god thats alot. But most folk dont want to wast time drilling out those bolts either which is a pain.
      Hopefully this guy can come back and let me know if tumbler can be repaired as i ordeted the large metal part on ebay for 40 bucks. Fuck that 193 lol if he cant repair then i may need to order from vw new tumbler piece for 128 maybe plus tax so its 143 or so. Plus i have to pay him cuz he took apart for me and all that. Tumbler was messed up and wouldnt come out. Was a pain had to drill

    • @mronemanband1
      @mronemanband1 4 роки тому

      @@DjStiv3 mobile lock smith 350.00

  • @chrisalfman5571
    @chrisalfman5571 4 місяці тому

    You really have no clue do ya.

  • @GStarLilTwin
    @GStarLilTwin 2 роки тому +1

    dude just rambling he not even saying nothing fr .