Why Rick Beato is Wrong About Perfect Pitch
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2020
- A scientist's response to Rick Beato's video "Why Adults Can't Develop Perfect Pitch."
I am a professional Jazz Musician, a Lecturer at Middlesex University, an Associate of the Royal Academy of Music, and a Music Psychology PhD student at the University of Cambridge (where I am studying Absolute (i.e., 'Perfect') Pitch).
No animosity is intended towards Rick Beato in creating this video. Its function is to add something useful to the public understanding of Absolute Pitch (which is the topic of my PhD).
Comments:
• I'm aware I pronounce 'Wernicke's area' strangely
• The Bachem statistic is actually from 1955, not 1954 (as I say in the video)
UPDATE the Absolute Pitch training experiment is now closed. The data analysis is well underway, so more with you asap! :)
Please support me on Patreon: / samleak
facebook: aquariumsamleak
instagram: samleakjazz
twitter: @aquariumsamleak
www.samleak.com
I still like playing Jazz to my kids. While I I don't have the illusion that it will give them perfect pitch, they learn to appreciate music
As a jazz musician myself, I fully support this! haha
This topic fascinates me and it is great to hear a well researched presentation on it. Thank you.
Hi Sam, thanks for posting this video! I am a Master's Music Therapy student and I am writing a research paper on Absolute Pitch. I also obtain this ability and I appreciate your insight on Beato's video. Thanks!
You got it when you said "the brain seems to be pretty damn plastic". I have trained myself to recognize A, with" Crystal Silence" by the late great Chick Correa, one of the most beautiful compositions ever made. As an Idealist, I hold the position that the brain is related to consciousness ,but, consciousness doesn't emerge from the brain, because then you get the hard problem of consciousness.
Fine work Sam, nice to see a relatively thorough exploration of this and the surrounding literature. Subscribed dude!
Thanks for that Graham, and for the kind words!
Smart. Lots of research went into this. I'm not entirely sure that Beato disgrees with you as much as you do, especially around the bit where he says that if perfect pitch could be learned, it would be taught already.
Adam Neely also covered this subject in a video. He begins by asserting that he is playing the note D on a portable keyboard. Instantly, I said, while watching this, that's Eb.
Now I don't have perfect pitch. I'm a self-taught guitar player who also can play chords on a piano. But certain notes stand out for me due to a vowel sound that they seem to embody. Eb, for instance, has a wah sound.
Imagine my satisfiction when, in the comments section, a whole host of people with actual perfect pitch started saying that the note was Eb. Later, Adam admitted that he had recalibrated the keyboard to what on the guitar would be known as Hendrix tuning ie - half a step down. He did this to confuse people visually so they couldn't guess the note by looking.
Maybe this vowel sound association is worth exploring for this reason.
I continue to practice tone recognition in this way myself, with good results. I thought I'd share this story as it may be of interest in your field of study..
Hi Sam. Excellent video. I have perfect pitch myself and many of the things you mention ring true, especially your pondering at the end about how having perfect pitch makes it harder to suss out the notes in a chord. I can identify simple chords just fine and some extended chords by their general quality as well as a few others just in isolation but once you get into complex voicings and inversions it's a different story. I don't even really hear the individual notes a lot of the time, the "tone colours" many describe blend together to create essentially a new colour so that, just like you can't pick red and yellow out of orange, I can't pick the notes out of those blended chords. With practice maybe but that's not been a priority in recent years.
A very informative video by someone that knows his trait very well. Congrats.
The first time that I realised that my 2 year old daughter had perfect pitch was when the train went by and sounded its horn, to which she said, A-sharp.
We had been showing her video clips of the music notes with a colour and the letter associated with it. We played this near on every day for the first 2 years of her life, sans the first 3 months or so. She now knows all the piano notes, and the few piano chords that I know how to play.
My point is that I worked through the programme with her, well mostly, as during half of the days that she would have done the studies I'd be at work. I was not able to learn perfect pitch as she has and my relative pitch obviously needs a point of reference (this I usually get from her😄).
Either way, my 4 month old has now started on the videos and I'm sure that you will agree that she will soon have PP!
Will be trying your link if it is still available.
All the best!
This is really interesting. This is even more confusing than I thought 45 min ago. Fantastic. Do you have the sources for all of the studies and such you mention throughout? I'd love to read even more deeply into all these things you discussed!
Thank you! And yeah of course about the sources - which are the studies you're particularly interested in?
Tomaço, you can see my color-associations with the notes on my channel here on UA-cam.
Let it be known that this is EXACTLY as i hear it. Counting to 12, we are going up the 12 chromatic notes, starting with C-note. C is robust, hot and weighty. C# is the same, but more movement and drive. More push. D is sounds like something unstable, but also very grounded and human. E-flat-is kind of the same but it becomes instantly more bright and clear. E-natural (E note) is like that light or illumination is now spreading itself out more. F becomes more open. Almost as if that energy is moving away/traveling. F# is the feeling that that activity is now over there, somewhere else; Green (The grass is always greener on the other side.). In other words, F# is active like C#, but it's sounds like it's coming from a distance. G is smooth, and sounds almost fluid. I've recently began to notice that when people speak casually, they speak in the key of G (especially where there in no emotional attachment. Just explaining something, or sharing an simple idea). You can even think of the throat chakra, as it is blue, and therefore the voice (but specifically, i am convinced G aligns more with turquoise/aquamarine). (Incidentally, Sam Leak in this very talk speaks it mostly in G, usually resolving down from a perfect 5th, D) Ok, so, moving on to A-flat: Cool, distant. Sounds twinkly, like a star. Songs about about death are often in A-flat. (Pet Shop Boys "You're Funny Uncle," is one example). A-note is the solidification of that which was once heavenly. Like C, it becomes grounded again, but wheres C is robust, fleshy, almost biological/organic, A-note instead sounds smooth and hard, like metal. So i feel that A is like the earth elements, in a way. B-flat immediately lifts off and sounds focused, almost piercing, like the E-flat. But much more gentle and rounded. There is a magical quality to B-flat (Bobby Vinton's "Blue Velvet"). Finally, B is an even softer type of B-flat feeling. And it is that sort of gentle, yet piercing quality that allows B to merge back into C, which is red. B is magenta. // You can follow my words here, as you go up the scale of your own instrument, and you can actually hear what i'm describing. I deliberately did not mention my color associations with the notes, because i want people to to make their own associations and visual descriptions. Keep little diary of what you hear when you do your note comparisons and not only will you hear what i hear, you will be halfway there to learning perfect pitch. The notes are just like colors. All you have to do is to start quietly paying attention to them individually for a bit. Especially in comparison. - frank montoya in Bent, New Mexico Here is my uTube page: ua-cam.com/channels/QzAv4E_kMLQLpK9vzQYg8Q.html
I know you will probably never see this message, but I would like to say thank you for providing such a clear and coherent explanation of the 12 notes in the perfect pitch context. This is an extremely starting point for some experimentation. Thank you. - Mike, Cheshire. UK.
Interesting description.
Could I ask You some questions later for curiosity sake. I am immensely interested in the subject
Cheers Jack
@@jackkurasik8371 Surely. You can also see some of my pitch-color visualizations here on my channel, The Acoustic Rabbit Hole.
@@Acoustic-Rabbit-Hole Thank You I'll be in touch
Jack
@@Acoustic-Rabbit-Hole I would like to ask-
When it comes to the pitch perseption, what more does come to an effect as a sensation in the mi d or the body-
A vision, meaning a picture of one or more shapes, or maybe a scene from life?
A physical sensation in the body, like tingling or something?
I applaud you for approaching this fascinating subject with not only well researched references but also with an open mind and scientific skepticism. Thank you for this in depth discussion. 👍🏼👏🏻
Thank you :)
Ok, I just completed the entire video, and boy what a lot to unpack. Firstly, based on the cited literature in one portion of the video, I have pseudo perfect pitch, as I can identify several key notes pertaining to my main instrument and use this knowledge to tune the instrument and make other relative pitch leaps. I think this is about as far as I care to take it since I don't see the benefit in pursuing it further. I don't think it would make me a better player of my chosen instrument. Secondly, I appreciate immensely what you said in regard to science being a discipline of scrutiny and rigorous questioning. In an age of "microaggressions" and rampant censorship on so many fronts, it's important for people to be reminded that criticism of someone's study or methodology isn't a criticism of THEM as a person. Science is impersonal and egos should have no place in it. Unfortunately, ego, money, and politics all play a far more significant role in the popularization of scientific ideas than most scientists care to admit. This was a brilliant lecture. I am better for having sat through it.
@@arcadepiano get help
" _Science is impersonal and egos should have no place in it_ " that may be some idealized notion of science but in fact it has never been the case or anywhere near the case. science is crammed full of cheating egoism rivalry and the race for rewards and recognition. ( as any honest scientist will tell you)
@@t-rexkalita1379 I hope he got the much needed help.
The trouble with studies is that they may not actually be accurate. Some people falsify data in order to get more funding for a project. I think you always have to have that in mind when accepting information on studies. Eugenics was once thought of as 'scientific' by some scientists.
Hey dude, this is an amazing video, and I love the way you out it together. After watching some of Rick Beato’s stuff, I got a bit discouraged. After seeing this and hearing that you are running an experiment, I got really excited. I went to the site, filled out all my information, and submitted it, but when I clicked the link to download the experiment, it said that the link did not exist. Is this a common problem, or is it something that happens often? If you could help me with this issue, I would be very grateful. Anyways, thanks for the inspiration and the great video, I can’t wait to see what you do next!
Hey! Thanks for the kind words and sorry to hear about the link. I’ll look into it today and get back to you!
I think it should be working again now?
@@SamLeak ahhh yes there we go it’s working again. Thanks man 👏
Great stuff, no problem!
@Sam Leak How useful do you find your HTM/AP in terms of music production/ music improvisation or anything relating to the music experience?
Can confirm that at least in my case, my first point of access was absolute pitch and that is definitely my fastest point of access, although I have trained my relative pitch to be decent (it's quite hard to test it individually though, as there is the tendency to default to absolute).
Thanks Lara, that's interesting :) Out of interest, how would you define relative pitch?
I'd define relative pitch as the ability to hear relationships in music (ex. whether a chord is major or minor, chord functions within a key, being able to hear intervals). In my case, I've practiced being able to hear intervals and try to listen to the interval quality rather than just hear what the two individual notes are and then calculate the difference based on that. Other useful exercises have been to try and transpose piano pieces by ear - how that feels like for me would be comparable to taking a photograph and trying to reproduce what that would look like with different colour filters.
As a person who acquired absolute pitch as an adult, I have noticed that relative pitch is different for me now that my absolute pitch has developed significantly. The intervals sound very different to how they used to sound when I used to rely on RP, and at times upon first listening, transposed melodies sound unfamiliar to me and odd. RP is no longer my first point of reference. It’s a funny experience and I’m still trying to figure out how to figure out what RP is to me now.
@@flowergirle9250 Please, can you share how you acquired perfect pitch as an adult? I hope to acquire it too...
@ Jay The main thing that made my learning AP successful was the belief that it was possible to learn it. I read a lot of information on AP and spent considerable time listening on my electronic keyboard (and a little time on my acoustic guitar too). I have never bothered with methods that focus on memorization like the melody triggers method that Rick Beato and others often refer to. Instead of specific methods and memorization, which seem kind of indirect to me- I focused directly on listening/ear-training. Yep I took the deep scary plunge into the unknown, lol. As ear-training apps have become available over the years, I’ve tried a few of those as well to further sharpen my ear. But I had successfully learned to recognize every pitch universally before I ever used any ear training app.
Most of the responses arguing against Rick's video (the absoluteness of it WRT adults being able to acquire perfect pitch) are ridiculous. This one was obviously well researched, well constructed, and very interesting.
I only know of only a very few people that really do have NOTE perfect pitch (which you CAN possibly do perfectly, you just have to call them ALL correctly) that claim to have learned it beyond childhood. I would question whether or not it was measured during childhood showing them NOT having perfect pitch, and later measured to demonstrate they did. Without those measurements those claims mean nothing...just sayin'. I'm not questioning their veracity (some of them, like one of the YT Two Set Violin guys, who claims teen time frame...kind of ambiguous whether that is adult or kid), just their accuracy in the assessment. I have never gotten anyone that makes this claim to answer the differential measurement question in the affirmative. That would tend to support Rick's stance, but if they did make those measurements, and that was the result, Rick would obviously be wrong.
That being said, I hate the term 'perfect' when talking anything, including audible frequencies. As an engineer I am THOROUGHLY aware that there is no perfect anything. If there were, when the best and most accurate tooling and measurement systems were available we wouldn't bother specifying a tolerance on any specified dimension, which when it matters to any degree is ALWAYS done. I could measure ANYONE'S so called 'perfect (frequency) pitch', with a highly accurate frequency instrument, and this would be demonstrated, I have zero doubt in this. Two people's perfect pitch to a standard or each other would uncover EASILY measurable errors.
What we would be measuring is the accuracy of someone's 'perfect pitch'. An instrument can measure to many orders of magnitude how accurate a frequency is, it's easy, all you do is count the cycles over time, and time is one thing humanity can now measure to the degree that the highest precision clocks available now would be accurate to the second now, if (theoretically) started it 13.7 billion years ago, at the very BEGINNING of time. That is accurate, I wanna tell ya.
That said, It seems to me like there are different kinds of 'pitch RETENTION' if you will. Most any relatively good singer can hold a pitch throughout a song with reasonable to near perfect accuracy. Obviously, whether or not they can name the notes, they have the ability to maintain the pitch fairly accurately. I have noticed that very competent singers can do this to the degree that even a person with very good relative pitch would not notice an error. It has been demonstrated in several experiments that a pitch difference less than about 5 cents is not detectable by musically proficient people. Obviously if you play the same pitch with two instruments against one another, not only is a VERY close match possible, but easy, using easily countable beats. You can do 1 or 2 hz easily with just a bit of exposure and practice with the concept. It is (was anyway) used extensively in tuning.
I propose that perfect pitch consists of the above short term pitch retention, but over MUCH longer periods. Almost nobody in this day and age goes very long without hearing tuned music. I would think several hours, but usually less than a day, would be a typical interval. More likely a very few hours, given that music is piped in just about everywhere you go anymore, and most people have a radio in the car, an TV, stereo, laptop, whatever on at home. Obviously, there is also the learned aspect of being able to determine 3rd', 4ths, 5ths, etc. so that you can NAME notes, which I expect can be learned as an adult, at least to the closest specific note of the 12 intervals in an octave in Western music.
You are very much correct that nailing ANY of this down...can an adult learn perfect pitch...is difficult to determine, when there is no definition or agreement on a perfect pitch definition. Thanks, your video made me do some thinking. Always dangerous. Sorry for the tome, but you can't complain too loudly with the 'comprehensive nature' of your vid, meaning it was LONG! :-)
BTW, your Valproate distribution anomaly becomes even less impressive if you take THIS into account, and it will blow your mind, as it looks at the inherent inaccuracies of ALL studies, and techniques and mistakes that further cloud results. There is even now a pre peer review for experiments to validate and fix if necessary, experiment methodology and mathematical treatment before the experiment is initiated, and the researchers get guaranteed publishing of their results if followed. That is how serious the problem is. This guy does a tremendous job of looking into subjects and often gets the best minds foremost in the particular field to weigh in, sometimes even interviewing them with INTELLIGENT applicable questions, or going to labs to see the experimentation/designs/etc. His channel is awesome, if you like science, match, and the like (His Penrose non repeating tile vid 'proof' demonstrates this 'in depth' idea quite well). The one on the Mars quad copter (just about there, lands in two months!) is pretty cool, too:
ua-cam.com/video/42QuXLucH3Q/v-deo.html
TLDR
i like the idea of becoming a better piano player by developing a good pitch recognition through ear training.
So actually i am in the process of evaluating which RELATIVE pitch learning/ear training method could suit my personal preferences and needs best.
Now, after having noticed your experiment i'm confused if i should put my efforts into gaining absolute pitch by participating your experiment or if i should rather stick with my original plans for gaining relative pitch.
Will gaining (or at least trying to gain) absolute pitch have any advantage over learning relative pitch in regards of becoming a better instrumentalist (or musician in general)?
Thanks in advance
No you should practice and develop relative pitch.
It most likely be best to work on relative pitch, I don’t have perfect pitch, but I have very strong relative pitch to a point where I no longer need reference for some notes, I’ve noticed that when I don’t use reference I find it hard to control using relative pitch so it switches between even when I already know the note, so if I was trying to train my relative pitch I forget to use the relationship between notes, and vice versa
The problem with perfect pitch is a lot of the time it seems to come at the detriment of relative pitch. You need relative pitch to create anything musically, figure out harmonizations, etc. A lot of these babies learning perfect pitch are learning to perceive music by its absolute note values rather than the intervals which is actually what makes music.
I don't define the terms but I feel like there is a big difference between absolute pitch and pitch recognition. If you ask someone with absolute pitch like Jacob Collier or Charlie Puth how they feel notes they are going to explain it in the same way as we feel colour. It's deeply engraved into their heads from their childhoods.
My experience after over 20 years of eartraining is that pitch recognition, when developed, does arise from a perception akin to color perception. Not directly as with synesthesia but just a perception of each pitch having a qualitatively different aural sensation. These sensations can be described with words like, "bright", "dark", "pointy", "dull", "rounded", etc.
If I didn't tap into this perception, I may never have made the progress that I have with absolute pitch development.
I mean, I can't imagine learning to identify pitches if they don't sound different in a subjective, qualitative way. If C doesn't sound qualitatively different from D in a similar way that red looks different from blue, how would I tell them apart?
You can 100% learn the pitches in adulthood such that you instinctively know which note you’re hearing when you hear it etc. As such I only feel like the colour analogy goes so far. The more interesting question for me is ‘is the skill as learned in adulthood the same as the skill learned in childhood.’ Much like first languages it seems that child learners learn it better. Yet, there are cases of second language acquisition in adulthood where the speakers have been able enough to fool native speakers into believing they are also native speakers (even if they thus far haven’t been able to fool linguists). Could AP be the same? I’d wager there are lots of people with heightened tonal memory that have more advanced ‘AP’ than early learners of it. It’s a really interesting area, and it’s really annoying seeing opinionated UA-camrs (e.g., Rick Beato, and more recently Adam Neely) trample all over it with a complete lack of interest in the nuance!
@ Sam Leak I 100% agree with you that adults can 100% learn instant pitch recognition. I have done so myself, to a high level - well beyond atomized pitches. I also agree with you that the type of absolute pitch learned in adulthood can at times be even more advanced than early learners. Rick Beato and some of the other prominent absolute pitch naysayers are definitely 100% incorrect.
@@spacevspitch4028 That was well stated.
@@SamLeak
The analogy with language learning is very useful. In language pedagogy, we were often taught that there was a critical period for acquiring a native-like accent without special training; it was roughly equivalent to pre-puberty.
If we take the analogy at face value, there are a few related expectations:
1. Special training could indeed produce perfect pitch, just as it can produce excellent accents in adults.
2. Adults may have an advantage in the fact that they are more likely to apply themselves with purpose and planning. It is true that adult language learners accomplish far more and in far shorter time than children. AP training may be similar.
3. Children have far more time at their disposal than adults. What would be possible for adults if they turned their attention to acquiring and using AP for ten years, day after day, the way that we unconsciously use language? The jury is still out on that because the rigorous experiments have never been performed on adults to my knowledge.
This is the first time Im actually quite excited for an ear training course , so many questions got me hyped.Quick Question I have been selected in Group A what does that mean ? Is there some kind of problem?
Thanks!!
A message from perfect pitch itself! Haha. Glad to hear you're excited about it - thank you for taking an interest. For questions relating to the experiment, your best bet is to email me at the address listed on forms.gle/5xn49nVxif5WTNaX7 . However, to answer your question, the full training starts on week 2 (by which point everyone is doing the same thing as each other). The week 1 training is testing a slightly different hypothesis, and features two groups taking slightly different approaches.
@@SamLeak I mean my school teacher believes I have perfect pitch but everyone says hes kinda crazy .so i want to try myself😄😄
@@perfectpitch2506 did it work out?
Group A is 440, haha
A musician from the youtube channel Twosetviolin, Eddy Chen, says his perfect pitch was not something he had at birth, but something he taught himself over the course of two years when he was a teenager. I think it’s worth checking it
It would be interesting to test him on it. David Ross was able to distinguish between 'Absolute Pitch Encoders' and those with 'Heightened Tonal Memory' on the basis of their not remembering a time at which they didn't have AP vs their remembering acquiring it. There isn't any definitive evidence in the literature that 'Heightened Tonal Memory' doesn't reflect the same underlying process as 'Absolute Pitch Encoding' and I question whether observed differences between the two might have more to do with environmental factors than anything else. The questions being asked about second language acquisition in adulthood provide a good point of analogy - there are instances of people that have learnt second languages in adulthood to the extent that they can convince native speakers that they are natives themselves (even if they haven't quite passed scrutiny with the strictest tests from linguists) - how much of the inability to learn 'nativelike' AP is down to the extreme efforts required to do so vs the way in which children approach learning things for the first time (in the case of language, learning as a necessity for communication vs learning out of choice in adulthood (competing with the other demands of being a functioning adult in the world)).
@@SamLeak I agree!
If you wanted to look further at this example then here's a video of him explaining how he got perfect pitch in high school: ua-cam.com/video/6oBs_et7l5o/v-deo.html
And here is a video of him showcasing it: ua-cam.com/video/WaOySImzXEQ/v-deo.html
There are also multiple videos of him showing it on the channel and it has never appeared false. Thanks for all your research.
I taught both of my children perfect pitch at the ages of 5 and 6. The just created a video demonstrating it. It took about 6 months for them to fully develop it and sing the note before it is played. Their video is here: ua-cam.com/video/uOmpgZ_h3w0/v-deo.html
@@apollog7764 it's a video of them taking the piss out of a stupid video. It actually demonstrated that the silly video _doesn't_ work.
@@apollog7764 again all you have is a video of someone with AP demonstrating it. This doesn't mean he taught himself AP it just means he has it
Sam, thank you so much for taking the time to research and make this video. When I first saw Rick's video - being as scientifically minded as I am - I immediately thought "mmm, this level of confidence doesn't feel quite right." Rick seemed to have especially fallen prey to the classic logical fallacy whereby "no evidence of X" becomes "evidence of not X."
You've left no stone unturned and settled it once and for all - the question is still alive and open. I would love to participate in your study and I will make every effort to go through the training provided over the next month!
Neural plasticity likely persists into adulthood for most or perhaps all people. The Brain That Changes Itself highlights this.
This is too damn good. You covered just about every issue I've had for years with absolute pitch studies, cultural myths surrounding absolute pitch, and most recently, Rick Beato's proclamations. It's incredibly frustrating how people watch Beato's videos and take what he says as gospel at face value.
Anyway, I've been wanting to make videos addressing this stuff for years!
"It's incredibly frustrating how people watch Beato's videos and take what he says as gospel at face value..."
This is a frequent complaint from people with scientific training in the field, as against lay researchers who read studies and compare them with personal experiences. I think it's a bit harsh to paint Beato or those who listen to him as purveyors of popular misinformation that then becomes crystalized in the public mind as undisputed fact. We do see this kind of thing in issues with public policy implications (think climate change) but here I don't believe there is much cause for frustration. Leak's contention that we need a more nuanced definition of absolute pitch is well taken, of course. Beato's main point is that most people don't have absolute pitch, are probably wasting their time seeking it and are better served by improving relative pitch skills in listening to and playing music.
@@markuswx1322 Yeah, I always wondered if Beato's staunch stance against the notion of AP being attainable at all was in part an effort to discourage folks from "wasting there time" with it when they could be working on more immediately accessible musical skills.
Of course, I've always done RP eartraining along with AP eartraining cuz I don't really consider them mutually exclusive. It's all part of deepening your subjective experience of music. And for what I've gotten out of it, I don't considered it a waste of time. Even if it HAS taken up about 23 years of my life (off and on) and STILL counting. But that's because I basically had to figure out HOW to go about it. If I could go back and start over knowing what I know now, I could've had a pretty much native-equivalent AP by my mid 20's. Of course, guys like Dylan Beato, Jacob Collier, and June Lee are on a whole other level of AP ability. But the basic skills of identifying and recalling ALL 12 pitches accurately and consistently and doing it in functional musical settings would be well under my belt.
@@spacevspitch4028 "If I could go back and start over knowing what I know now, I could've had a pretty much native-equivalent AP by my mid 20's."
Amen, it is one of the refrains we recite to ourselves in this life. I feel the same about pitch perception, music theory and many other things about which my learning curve could have been less arduous had I had better mentoring, or that the state of the art was such as to make it possible. As a young man I did not know just how close to AP I had. I would tune my guitar by ear, then check it against the tuning fork and find it was spot-on. I could then name any other pitch, which I now realize was not AP, but good-as for my purposes. Well, that was fifty years ago, and those skills are mostly gone. I failed to reinforce them.
As you say, what Beato's son and others can do is on another level, but a lifetime of training, the right kind of practice, and an understanding of how perception works can be of inestimable benefit.
@@markuswx1322 Well...it's AP FOR the pitch of the standard guitar tuning. So maybe you had the low E memorized. It may be a very rudimentary form of AP but there's no RP involved in recalling that first note. If you don't need a reference for a pitch, even if it's only one pitch, it's absolute - aka: absolute pitch. Don't sell yourself short!
But anyway, it's always difficult to see these kids for whom the red carpet was rolled out from their first breath. They were given everything they needed to succeed. Jacob Collier's mother is a brilliant professional musician in her own right and she was there to encourage his musical education, including development of his ears from the very beginning. Not to mention providing all those instruments to experiment and toy with. Corey Henry, Justin Lee Schultz, etc., they've all been given the genetic/environment combination lottery. They were able to absorb the fundamentals of the language of music before they were even able to fully understand what was going on. So it's essentially native, like a first language to them.
For us, it's a lifetime uphill battle because we didn't have that luxury. We have to learn it like a 2nd language and fight to speak without an accent.
But...it's also a joy to work on these things. To experience going deeper and deeper into it over the years. I don't know if maybe my appreciation of it would be lacking if I had had all the stops pulled out for me from the beginning. I guess I have no other choice but to tell myself that whether it's true or not because I can only have been born and raised the way I was. So this is what I've got to work with.
Anyway, I'll reach my AP goals anyway. I'm on the path to it. I just try to enjoy the process as much as possible.
Haha yes Beato is so annoying with this perfect pitch BS that he talks about and his bragging of his son as “gifted”. He’s an elitist donut 😂
@SamLeak
If you're under time pressure, any resources on techniques to improve are much appreciated. :)
Which techniques does the literature suggest are most effective for improving in young adulthood?
How did you specifically go about it, & what would you have done differently?
Are there any recently published studies of interest, including yours?
Thanks for such an in depth public critique!
It seems very difficult to discern whether a study has reliably & correctly interpreted their results (etc); even if you have formal & critical analysis training in the field at hand.
What is the tonal memory required to be able to modulate between all keys freely in your head as well as identify those modulations when listening. That skill would be the one worth studying.
Hello, Sam ! Loved your video. Is still possible to take part in your experiment?
Sam, I may have missed any comments here on the causes of LOSS of perfect pitch. If there are any, i appologize. The loss of it was the subject of a vid Rick did a few days ago that's akin to this referenced one. I wonder if Rick was reaching for some valid connection with this first vid, it may shed some light on his MO. I made the reference to AMUSIA myself under Beatos 2nd vid, because it seemed no one else DID. Especially in the case of losing some kind of ability right after a trauma like the one referenced after the hospital in Ricks more recent one. ( yeah, i know this is off topic, but maybe not ) I can appreciate the efforts behind and supporting what it must take to achieve ANY PhD. Mr Leak... I was wondering Sam, if you've ever delved into any of Nurologist Oliver Sacks material that helped make up his book 'MUSICOPHILIA'. I put it down after a few chapters, for a couple weeks, thinking it'd be too hard of a read, and actually being scared of some of the things covered inside. Had to make a CONSCIOUS effort to finish it. Maybe through your years of study. did you ever meet him? I would venture to guess that Musical Psychology and Neurology share more than one bedfellow. I really appreciate your mention of no animosity. And your post here makes me, as a 56 yr old lyricist, musician and neuro-psychological enthusiast HAPPY to think that I might be able to, someday... ... ...hold a note. HS
I would love to have met Oliver Sacks, but sadly I never had the opportunity to. I really enjoyed reading 'Musicophilia' when I was starting to get into music psychology. Similarly I found Levitin's 'This is Your Brain on Music' a fun read. I need to give RB's recent video a proper watch. I did skim through it and saw that he mentions Gary Burton losing his AP, which is an interesting case indeed (one I was definitely already aware of as a GB fan!). I didn't have the impression (but I could be wrong) that he discussed the reason most commonly cited for people losing their AP with age, which is the loosening or tightening of the basilar membrane with age, resulting in a sharpening or flattening of the perception of pitch. People also lose/weaken their AP through experience with other musics. As an anecdotal example, I spoke with a violinist from the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment who described losing her AP as a consequence of performing so much music at baroque pitch. Thanks for your message! I'll be sure to watch the RB video properly when I have a moment :)
Good work !! 👍
I don't remember if you mentioned this in the video or not but do you think there's any relation between the "white-gold/blue-black dress" phenomenon and perfect pitch? The comparison between perfect pitch and color is often made so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I'm afraid, other than remembering it becoming popular, I don't really know anything about that illusion! What makes you think there would be a relation? In terms of synaesthetic experiences, there's a study by Peter Gregerson that you might find interesting: Gregersen, P.K., Kowalsky, E., Lee, A., Baron-Cohen, S., Fisher, S.E., Asher, J.E., Ballard, D., Freudenberg, J. and Li, W.,(2013). Absolute pitch exhibits phenotypic and genetic overlap with synesthesia. Human molecular genetics, 22(10), 2097-2104.
Believing there to be a phenotypic similarity between AP and synaesthesia, they looked for genetic similarities. Performing a linkage analysis on 53 AP families and 36 synesthesia families they found a statistically significant combined (non-parametric) linkage peak of 4.68 (LOD) on chromosome 6q. I think there's some fairly dodgy science in this paper, but it's certainly interesting.
@@SamLeak That is an interesting study. I guess more broadly I'm thinking about color illusions in general. I'm sure you've seen the one where the same gray square is placed among two different sets of surrounding squares which gives the illusion that it's a different color.
To me, and I could be wrong, this seems analogous to what happens in music. For many people I imagine a single tone appears as different tones when the musical context around it changes. And I wonder if this phenomenon plays a role in many people's inability to recognize the absolute pitch of a tone, especially when the harmonic context it's found in is unfamiliar.
Good Day Sir :)
Can I ask a question?
Do you have another download link of the Absolute Pitch Training Experiment
Sounds like the file in the download link in the PDF instructions that you gave to me is broken
I've downloaded it again
winrar says "file is corrupted
I've try to rebuilt/repair the file but it has missing contents
That's All Thanks :)
Hi - I’m not ignoring you. I don’t know why the download is having trouble at your end, and this isn’t an issue I’ve encountered with any of the other participants, or at least not to my knowledge. Obviously if anyone else *has* found this issue then please let me know (although preferably by email) and I’ll look into it. As for your case, I *was* transferring it to you on the day on which we spoke over Zoom, but unfortunately the upload didn’t complete for some reason. Unfortunately later on the same day I had an accident in which I fractured my elbow, so I’ve been out of action for a few days. Yes, I’ll attempt to transfer the experiment files to you ASAP, but please bear with me. Thanks
@@SamLeak Thank You Very Much Sir :)
Can you make a video on how to join or participate in the absolute pitch training that you make, the instructions aren't clear and confusing because I've zero knowledge or I am not familiar in using this kinds of software utilities and also I can't run the software. Pls help me
Hi! Thanks for taking an interest. Most people have found the accompanying PDF relatively clear to follow, but I appreciate that there are a couple of moments in setup that could be confusing. If you can send me an email at the experiment email address then I’m more than happy to talk you through it :)
@@SamLeak Thanks Bro :)
Good Day Sir :)
I think the problem in the 'Timing_check.py' file is in the code written there
I've downloaded again the PsychoPy program and it's run smoothly with no lag and I run the 'Timing_check.py' file that you gave to me and it crashes again.
I've noticed in statement no.14 of the code of 'Timing_check.py' and I change the value of "notes_ out_of_sync = 0.2 to "notes_ out_of_sync = 1000 and I've noticed it did not crash but it didn't print out the 8th note so I think, there is a problem with the code
I've also installed the Python program just to make sure there are no errors in setting up the Absolute Pitch Experiment.
That's All Thank You :)
I think that might indicate how slowly your computer is running... When we chatted on Zoom, it seemed to have hardly any RAM. Most people when they update "notes_ out_of_sync" (which is a normal part of setup, and is explained clearly in the instructions), update it to e.g. '1', or '2.' If you're having to update it to 1000 then that indicates there's something very wrong indeed. It seems to me that your system is struggling with PsychoPy - the program the code is written in. As such i recommend asking for advice on this issue from the PsychoPy forum: discourse.psychopy.org . If you have another computer with more RAM then I'd definitely try to run it on that one.
Can I respectfully ask that you don't ask technical troubleshooting questions on the UA-cam comments whenever you don't get an immediate email response from me. I'm a busy guy but I will get back to your emails to help. This is quite a unique problem that you're having here - most people have managed to get the experiment up and running fine. I am keen to help you though.
Thanks for your interest in taking part!
So is there some kind of method for remembering or recalling certain note names? Other than listening hours and hours video where you hear different pitches which doesnt work?
Hey! I talk about this here: ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html
If you'd like to then you're welcome to take part in my training experiment too :) - docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd5as01ucRSduV5dNrG9b-MkmH9eoK4ieyzqmraP-we7J9F7w/viewform
@@SamLeak okay thanks!
I'm inclined to agree with you on this, because I didn't start playing guitar till I was 19 years old over 30 years ago, today I can tune a guitar by ear without any reference notes, I can do so because I can hear the sound of the correctly tuned 5 notes on the 6 strings in my head and tune the respective strings to the correct pitch, I've tested myself with digital tuners to test my accuracy, so I've come to the conclusion that with work and time I should be able to recognise the other 7 notes of the 12 note scale as well as I developed the ability to recognise the first 5..
Technically you only have to remember the sound of one string and the other 5 are based on relative pitch
@@dragorn3212 true, and I'd say most guitar players should be able to identify the low E then hear the other 5 strings as fast as they can count 123456.
Basically, just start listening to one note one-half-step against the other. You will start to notice that there is a color/texural difference between them. Start writing it down in a journal. The more creative description, the better, so that you can visualize the memory. Secondly, start playing halfsteps or whole steps together and then try to sing those notes separately (lowest one first). Keep doing this for about 20 times per practice session. Just takes a few minutes. Don't over practice. Don't try too hard. If you do these two things with daily practice (just once or twice a day), you will ultimately hear how G (the "vocal" note) is very fluid and smooth. I think of it as turquoise or aqua, and as a shape of a teardrop. This is why the throat chakra is associated with Blue tones. We seem to "speak" in blues. It helps to see the notes as going up the 12-tone color-wheel, starting with C as red. This the reason love songs are found to be in C. Twelve colors, twelve notes. It's all spectral. But you must HEAR it for yourself; don't take my word for it! // My work on this and similar topics can be found here on uTube at The Acoustic Rabbit Hole
Did you figure out a training program that works and if yes will you share/ sell it? I would like an app like that :D
Brother I am trying to learn singing. I cannot understand the mechanism behind it. Is singing all about mastering intervals with a reference pitch( comfortable pitch) and developing a ear to sense if the note sung is in pitch or not(obviously with emotions & style). Untill yesterday I thought to sing I need to able to sing all the notes in a octaves with pure memory. So Singing does not have anything to do with pitch perfect right?
Thanks man.
Hi! I'm not an expert on singing unfortunately, but I can answer some of your questions. To sing, you'll need to have a clear idea of the pitches that you're trying to produce, but this can be relative or absolute - you don't need perfect pitch to be able to do this. You do need to learn how to audiate though (which is to say, you need to learn how to think in music). There are two main types of relative pitch: "functional relative pitch" and "interval identification." A lot of musicians also think of timbral absolute pitch (e.g., 'piano pitch') as a type of relative pitch, probably because it develops so naturally for so many people, but this is seen in the literature as a type of absolute pitch. The most musical starting place would be to develop functional relative pitch, which is recognising notes and chords by their relationship to a key centre. Moveable do techniques like The Kodaly Method can really help with this. I personally recommend checking out these 3 books: "Essential Ear Training for Today's Musician" - Steve Prosser, "Training the Ear: For the Improvising Musician" - Armen Donelian, and "Aural Skills Acquisition: The Development of Listening, Reading, and Performing Skills in College-Level Musicians" - Gary S. Karpinski. What you're essentially learning to do is give labels to the emotions that you already feel when you hear music. In any key, each note and chord has its own feeling of tension in relation to the key centre. Once you've learnt, for example, that chord IV feels uplifting, chord V feels melancholic, chord vi feels tragic etc. (you might have different responses, so you'll have to learn your own ones), then you'll find they're easy to recognise in music that you're listening to, and much easier to intuitively produce as well. If you think of absolute pitch as learning the absolute colours of pitched music, then relative pitch is like learning the relative colours. In terms of singing-specific advice you'll need to talk to a singing expert I'm afraid. Through experience with their voice/instrument, a lot of people learn the absolute qualities also (David Ross would categorise this as 'Heightened Tonal Memory). I'd say, if this is genuinely your first experience with all of this, then you should make a point of attending to the absolute qualities of the notes as well as the relative ones. You have the opportunity to form some strong absolute associations from the offset! :)
the mechanism behind singing is compressing the air inside your chest and slowly letting it out with different techniques. Best is to find a teacher and do some real life lessons, because it's hard for beginner to analyse their own voice. There's too much to say to it, but one thing is sure: If you can hear difference between tones and don't have medical issues, you'll be able to sing. How well? That depends on your dedication and your body. Mostly on first. And no, you don't need perfect pitch to sing. Even in music industry it's considered rare.
Yup, definitely find yourself a real life singing teacher!
From what I've gathered you can learn perfect pitch as it wont come natural as to someone that can just call out pitches without "having to learn" it can be done. I have it i can hear a note and tell you what it is. Some people can do it though relative pitch to get to the pitch and some people have perfect pitch and call it without ref. Both is good to learn and know and i can do both. Same way with prodigy child kids playing Ludwig van Beethoven themes or material without being taught. Some has it within them but i can be taught as well. Takes time and practice and work but can be done. Once you learn it you never forget it. Nothing is impossible
@Sam Leaks So you know the sound of each individual pitch. Can you hear more than one pitch at a time? Can you sing of him from memory or hear tonality? How long have you been able to recognize the sound of each individual pitch?
I learned to identify pitch as an adult, and I can do all of the above. I can also recognize pitch in the environment and in everyday sounds, as well as multiple pitches in real time music. But initially, I was only able to recognize single atomized pitches on instruments and in environment. And very quickly after that 2 pitches at a time. But over time I got to where I could easily hear tonality and multiple pitches in a row and in chords, etc. My earliest absolute pitch skill developed almost 11 years ago now. But here’s the thing- I feel like I had AP as a child, but somehow “lost” it and regained it.
I meant sing or hum by the way, not sing of him, lol
@@flowergirle9250 That's very interesting about losing it and regaining it as a child. There's evidence that adults and children alike have 'implicit' AP, but that the thing most adults struggle with is pitch labelling. My feeling is that RP and AP are both learnable in adulthood, but that AP is harder to learn once you've already learned RP (and perhaps vice versa also).
Regarding my own pitch, what do you mean by 'hear more than one pitch at a time?' Do you mean 'recognise' or do you mean 'recall'? I can certainly recognise more than one pitch at a time, but I find it a lot easier when these chords are atomized. So if you played me a single chord, I could tell you what the notes are, but I'd struggle more if you played a sequence (in which case I'd most likely recognise the melody absolutely, but might well recognise the sequence relatively). I can sing the notes from memory, yes, although my tuning isn't always good. I've found I'll sometimes sing a note from memory, play it on the piano and think I've sung it a semitone wrong, play the note a semitone away and realise that I was much closer to the originally intended note but not in tune.
It's interesting to hear about your experience. Did you actively learn to identify pitch absolutely as an adult, or was it a by-product of e.g., regularly playing an instrument? I wonder if you took a similar approach to the one I'm training people with as a part of my PhD experiment (linked to in the video description). The experience you're describing does ring true to me. Atomized pitches are a LOT easier. From my own experience I find it odd that recognising everyday sounds (beeps/buzzes etc) is seen as such a gold standard in the literature, when I find these quite straightforward to recognise. It's taken a lot longer for me to recognise pitches in the context of actual music (and even now I feel that this is developing rather than fully formed. Some days the notes in recordings sing out to me clear as day, and on other days I really have to think about them and I make mistakes). It's encouraging to hear about your experience as it sounds to me like I'm on the same development curve as you, but you're further down the line than me.
Thanks a lot for your comment :)
@ Sam Leaks. Thanks for your response. And yes, I was asking if you can recognize more than one pitch at a time such as in chords. And I agree, it feels easier when things are atomized. But AP just takes patience and develops in its own time. I first started actively training my AP as an adult 11 years ago. But since then, I’ve spent a lot of years busy and not really working on it, until the past year or so. I’ve made a lot of progress, and can use the skill musically, but would still like to improve you know- see just how good it can get. And I’m with you with the good days and bad days with recognizing singe pitches in real time music; some days I can easily recognize more pitches than other days. But one thing that I’ve noticed is that the recognition of pitch in music tends to build like one pitch at a time. Like first Bb will really stick out, then F#, etc. in no particular order - at least that’s been my experience. Also I definitely agree with you that Rick Beato is wrong in his inflexible view on adults not being able to learn absolute pitch - we certainly can. And when we do, we open up a whole new world in our musical experience and comprehension so it’s definitely not a waste of time.
About having AP as a child. My earliest memory is being in a car seat listening to music on the radio and being able to clearly tell that each pitch had its own sound and trying to analyze what the sounds meant. Fast forward to first grade or so, I remember humming a lot and being told that I hum well. Then around 3rd grade I was over a friend’s house who had a piano and I remember her hitting keys and me noticing how each key had it’s own unique sound and really enjoying it. I didn’t learn the pitch names then, though I’m sure I could have. Then fast forward to age 12.5 when I got my first clarinet and joined the school band. I could play songs by ear as soon as I put that thing together out of the box and used to play for hours. This is in contrast to having a recorder just the year before at age 11 that I had no clue how to play. I remember noticing in band that each musical key like E major C major etc had a different sound to it, but that was it. I didn’t know AP existed. But I’m guessing had I been introduced to it then as a teen, I could have very easily picked it up and quickly. Now moving on the age 24.5 when I first learned about AP, lol. By that age, my recognition of keys and pitches sounding unique had relaxed to the point of practical non-existence and I had to start from scratch trying to figure it all out again. But I’m glad I put in the effort, because before I turned 25, I was starting to reclaim the lost AP.
@@flowergirle9250 Interesting stuff, thanks a lot for sharing your experience! :)
@ Sam Leak also I meant to ask you, did you use melody triggers to learn the pitches or something else? Thanks.
Hi Mr. Sam Leak :)
Can I ask a question?
Can I still participate in the Absolute Pitch Ear Training?
I want to know if this experiment is still ongoing
That's All Thanks :)
Keep Safe and God Bless
Hi, yes it's still running. I've sent you an email. Best wishes
@@SamLeak Oh Thank goodness :)
You reply :)
Yea I’m a native Chinese speaker and me and most of friends have perfect pitch. It’s so common that we don’t think it’s a big deal. Also we learn Do Re Mi instead of C D E which also helps
youtube brought me here. who is rick beato, lol.. I like your accent and sound, good b flats and ds.
A music professor who has 2,2 million subscribers on youtube.
Music at its core is a bunch of sound we have abstracted into meaning based on relations of the notes to one and other.
In other words, music is a human construction based on the relative relationship of sounds to each other.
The whole concept is based on relative pitch.
It is kind of a fluke that the absolute pitch serves us better than relative pitch in some areas of music.
I show the Rick Beato video and for a time I took it as true. But I had a couple of experiences that make me question it. I did figure out songs by ear, because I was playing the guitar randomly and I did play a note that triggers a song in my mind. This is not that rare, the strange thing is that all the times that this happened, I did figure out the song in the right key. The song wasn't songs that I did listen, 5 monists before, a couple of times, were songs that I didn't listen in a long time ( it can be more than a year ) Sometimes when I play randomly and I play a sequence of notes and that triggers the song, but when that happens, the song will not be in the right key.
After watching your video, what I think that happened, is that I just figured out the first note by absolute pitch but the rest of it by relative pitch. Maybe Absolute pitch has a spectrum of development, as relative pitch has.
I have listen to music teacher say that what we call musical hear, can't be developed. They say that a person that doesn't know how to sing in tune, can't learn it. The traditional method only works for the people that has already some ear development or practice imitating pintch with their voice. 100% those thing are learnable, only people with amusia can't, and those people are a very small percentage people ( they hate music because they don't understand it. Maybe with absolute pitch it is the same case.
Sir from your experience, how do you train your self to develop perfect pitch?
It is possible for adults or teens to acquire perfect pitch?
(please give me an simple answer yes or no)
As the video demonstrates, it isn't really possible to give a simple yes or no - it depends on our operational definition of AP. If you mean 'is it possible to learn to recall and recognise pitches absolutely in adulthood' then the evidence demonstrates that (at least for some people) this is possible. In terms of 'how did I train myself', I've followed the method that I'm testing in my training experiment, although note that I only describe what I've got as 'party trick perfect pitch' (or what Ross would call 'Heightened Tonal Memory'). I can certainly recognise and recall pitches absolutely, and I've taught myself this. Whether or not this is part of the same construct as 'Absolute Pitch Encoding' is contentious.
It would be worth checking out these two studies also:
Wong, Y. K., Lui, K. F., Yip, K. H., & Wong, A. C. N. (2018). Acquiring absolute pitch in adulthood is difficult but possible. bioRxiv, 355933.
Van Hedger, S. C., Heald, S. L., & Nusbaum, H. C. (2019). Absolute pitch can be learned by some adults. PloS one, 14(9), e0223047.
@@SamLeak Ohh Okkiee
I undertand now :)
I can recognize with low certainty (errors uccor but it's far better then chance) the pitch only of orchestral excerpts by listening to the timbre and strain of flute, oboe, clarinet, horn and trumpet. Especially, I can determine when a Flute plays the note d'' or c#'' around the octave break. Piano notes I can not discern at all.
Some people have a ringing sound in their ear/head if they really focus on it. Is it possible this ringing is constant and some perfect pitch people are really just subconsciously comparing notes to the ringing sound which allows them to name notes
Interesting point, maybe.
Interesting video, how did you learn perfect pitch?
lol practice, for example if you're 18 practice for 18 years simple
Hi There :)
Did you know that Sir Rick Beato has its own Ear Training Course to Develop Relative Pitch? Did you tried it?
Hi. I have this problem with the experiment in python pygame.error: Couldn't open 'sounds/E3_version_6_wenceslas_normal.mid'
Hi Sebastian. Happy to help, but it would be easiest to deal with this via the email address in the experiment pdf, rather than over UA-cam. PsychoPy (which the code is written for) seems to struggle with Big Sur, so perhaps that explains the issue? It's something I'm currently looking into finding a fix for. Thanks for your interest in taking part, and hopefully we can find a solution via email!
I just downloaded it again and it worked
Right on.
Can I ask a Question?
How's your Perfect Pitch Ear Training Method?
Did you find effective for those people who participated on it?
Sorry that we can't be able to meet at zoom due to do that I am busy with my school works
The experiment is still underway I’m afraid! But I’ll let you know when I’ve done the various analyses :)
@@SamLeak Did you have participants that have no perfect pitch that have been participated in your Perfect Pitch Ear Training and left having Perfect Pitch?
@@maximuswilliam318 you’re gonna have to wait for any meaningful analysis I’m
afraid - a few people having completed the training doesn’t indicate the success of the training (as much as I’d love to claim it did). But yes I’ve had people complete the training, which can only be achieved by being able to recognise pitches absolutely in a musical context. So in some anecdotal sense, it’s a yes. However, as I go into in the video (and aside from the fact that the full data set needs to be properly analysed), I think there’s a wider discussion to be had about what constitutes AP. I’ll be doing all of this in my thesis (which I’m about halfway through writing).
@@SamLeakYes I am interested on the analysis
You have a relaxing voice.. Nice video
So how long this experiment would run?
I agree with your overall argument. There is so much left to learn about the brain and there's nothing conclusive about the studies that "prove" it can't be developed later as you illustrate. I did attempt to participate in your 2 week study but I found the effort to set everything up and follow along in a separate internet doc to be too much hassle. Maybe I'm just lazy and not a good representation but I think you'd get a better turnout if you streamlined and consolidated all these disparate downloads and instructions into one simple interface. Either way I hope you do get a good response because you're clearly a good researcher and are asking interesting questions. Cheers.
Thanks for that! Yes, the issue with Beato's video is simply that he takes suggestive, and highly disputable, evidence from an area that is still very much being explored, and presents it as firm fact. Thanks for attempting to take part in the study. Just to clarify, it's not a two-week study: up front there's a one-week test of a separate (but connected hypothesis), and from then on it's a self-paced training scheme. You're dead right that it would help to have everything within a simple interface, and if the experiment's results suggest that it's something worth doing then I may well turn it into an app. Most of the download and setup issues surround PsychoPy, which is a standard psychology platform (and great for psychology experiments). The actual code I've written runs easily once it is set up. The PDF explaining how to set it up is pretty clear to follow, and most people that are taking the training have managed to set everything up without issue. I get that it could put some people off to have to go through a setup process though - you're right about that. If you change your mind and fancy another shot then feel free to send me a message on the experiment email - I'm happy to talk you through it to get things rolling. No worries if not, obviously. Thanks again for your thoughts and suggestions :)
@@SamLeak I may give it another try at some point. I've actually had a similar experience to you. In the course of developing relative pitch I found I was able to pretty accurately hear and sing a G# unprompted before I'd begin practicing. And from this I could reasonably deduce all other pitches by jumping off from this G# in my head that I'd developed a strong memory for. You seem to be faster at it though. It's by no means automatic for me and requires focused concentration and some days I might be a semitone off but I'd say it's about 95% reliable. I do wonder if people with perfect pitch haven't gone through something similar but have just been doing it since they were 2 or 3 and have years of reinforcement ahead of me.
Another element I think that's missing is the effort of undoing incorrect habits in the mental visualization we've reinforced since we were kids. I actually didn't even know a person could develop relative pitch until I was in my mid 20's. Up until that point I would only hear songs in my head and never made the connection that I could more finely granularize that ability to piece apart the individual intervals I was hearing common to many songs. I would instead just go "Oh, that sounds like that part from this song." Thinking back on it now, I think it was analogous to having constructed a syllable-based language of music in my head (like japanese) rather than a phoneme-based one composed of individual sounds (like english). As I've been developing relative pitch I've noticed the hardest part is undoing these old thought processes I've built up where I play large chunks of a song in my head repeatedly instead of being able to focus on a single musical instant. So I wonder if the larger portion of the work for a lot of people isn't actually the development of these musical abilities, but the undoing and replacement of their current neural pathways inefficiently designed for the task.
@@rasputozen Thanks for this. Some interesting points!
The experience you're describing sounds similar to the one that Brady taught himself (check out the video section at ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html ) - what do you think? What I've taught myself is the absolute quality of each of the 12 notes (I discuss it here, if you're interested: ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html). It fits a minimalist definition of AP as 'the ability to recognise and produce pitches without an external reference,' and would pass the standard tests that the AP literature is based on. My hunch is that it will develop into a more fully fledged version of AP with the appropriate practice (which I'm working on!), but for now I'm only going to claim a minimalist definition of AP (perhaps what David Ross calls 'Heightened Tonal Memory'). But yes, importantly, I haven't just memorised one note, I've memorised all of them.
I think you make a good point about the constant reinforcement that AP possessors (or at least what David Ross calls 'Absolute Pitch Encoders') have had since childhood. They've developed absolute associations to the pitches very young, and then presumably every time they've encountered pitched information from that point onwards it's reinforced their ability. RP possessors do have an obstacle here in that they've formed strong relative associations to the pitches already. This means that they are trying to strengthen weak AP associations to the pitches while having another access point that is much stronger.
FYI you actually have both syllables and phonemes in both Japanese and English. A syllable is a single, unbroken sound of a spoken word. Phonemes are abstract categories of sound (phonetic sounds relate to how we produce the sound). The phonemes are how the sounds are organised in meaningful ways, so that we can distinguish between words that otherwise sound the same. For example, p, b, d, and t distinguish between the words pad, pat, bad, and bat. A notable difference between Japanese and English is that Japanese is a pitch accent language, whereas English is an intonation language.
I'm not sure that it's a case of unlearning existing associations so much as deliberately reinforcing and strengthening the new ones. RP (certainly in Gary Karpinski's sense of 'functional RP') involves learning to apply labels to the Western tonal experience that we have (so learning that chord IV sounds proud, chord vi sounds tragic etc - recognising every pitch you hear as a different tension on a journey back to the tonic). Although there are instances of people with AP that claim not to hear this (perhaps they've formed strong AP associations but need to reinforce their RP associations!), I suspect that in most instances AP musicians have developed both skills.
@@SamLeak Yea, it is like that Brady example you mentioned except I'm using a reference song in my head rather than memory of a tuning fork. I agree both Japanase and English have syllables and phonemes, I actually meant their written versions. Japanese characters, as well as chinese where they got their symbols from, don't phonetically spell words. In the case of Japanese their "alphabet" is a collection of 71 syllables through which they construct their words. I don't think you could apply a syllable-based alphabet to English without it being extremely unwieldy. We don't have as consistent a use of a relatively small number of syllables in our words as the Japanese language does, which I think probably informed their choice of a syllable-based alphabet to begin with 1500 years ago. And then I think it's likely this choice of alphabet continued (and continues) to inform the way their language evolves. Whether this holds up as a useful analogy for musical ability I don't know, experiments by researchers such as yourself will hopefully give us a better idea of the various ways people process music in their brain in the years to come :)
I much like Charlie and Jacob have absolute pitch, but I remember it around 7 years old, but my family tells we that they noticed it a about 3-4 years old
shows again the genetic origin
Appreciated this video. I am a huge Beato fan, but often disagree with his views. Recently he made a "nature/nurture" comment on Wolfgang VanHalen, and why he is so talented and sounds so much like his father. He said it was nature, he was born with it. How is this NOT nurture? He learned music from and developed his abilities because of learning from his family.
So glad you didn't force the whole "perfect pitch is like hearing colors" thing. Sure it's a good analogy for the average person to understand what absolute pitch is, but comparing senses is not that simple. If it were as easy to discern pitches as it is to name a color, then the same percentage of people that are NOT color blind would have perfect pitch!
Also loved Adam Neely's agreement with perfect pitch being more of an ailment than a desirable trait. I'd find it terribly annoying if I could tell the difference between a440 and a432 and couldn't enjoy music because of that.
It is not an ailment, it is a huge gift, please do not sooth yourself by belittling the gifts of other people. Just relax and accept that you have not got the gift.
Sorry. I found your comment very jealous berdering on the offensive to "absolute pitchers".
When a child has predisposition, that child can be nurtured to have PP. If the child does not love sounds (which is inborn), that child will not sustain training.
There is a big difference between 440, 441 and 442, it is not annoying at all but amazing, OK?
@@MishaSkripach Wasn't meant to soothe myself, nor belittle your gift. I have more than a few people in my circle with PP. Many have stated how it is bothersome at times, and keeps them constantly worried about how they have to listen. Maybe you need to relax with your self praise, and taking offense when none was implied. Many conditions can be both a blessing and a curse.
@@JohnResciniti I was not talking about myself, I do not have PP, my family memvber has it, and it is a huge blessing, not an inconvenience. PP is essential for string playing. your people "in your circle" simply feel sorry for yourself, sensing your jealousy. You do not know and cannot know what they say in your absence. Since my child deminstrated PP, I witnessed tremendous jealousy towards him on the part of people who do nto have PP, expecially musicians. However, the many PP people all between themselves clearly know the huge advantages of PP.
Things can be bothersome, yes, however people wiht PP have career good enough as to play in venues with tuned pianos and in-tune choirs. Transposing is annoying for the first 5 min, then a PP person adjusts.
Your claims are very similar ot claims of a coloiur blind artist "I do not need to see colours".
Sorry, I am in your shoes, I have not got PP, but have excellent relative pitch. You and I are "colour blind" re. sounds.
To add to things probably already said. The more I play, the easier it is for me to find the right notes. If I'm going to take out a song, I can be pretty sure that I hit the right spot. I don't have a perfect ear for tone, but I get everything right most of the time. I am of the opinion that you can train yourself to figure out or hear which notes are being played. Sometimes I compare with the internet just to check if I'm right. Perfect pitch is something you are born with. A gene that gives you that. The rest of us have to train ourselves for it. Age has nothing to do with it. Anyone can do this trip.
You cant teach adults perfect pitch. You can acquire it without even knowing it as a child...and then after musical training as adult you now realize you in fact had it from the beginning...and never realized you could do this? Then you start ascribing labels to these pitches and start having an awareness of this and hence change the way you choose to hear music. Thats what happened to me at least.
I got it as an adult when I was about 25, although looking back, I feel like I may have had it as a child but somehow lost it sometime in my teens.
I have begun training my ear for absolute pitch about a month ago and I can say that while I still don't have it, there are notes that I can already recognize instantly like a C and a B. And the more often and consistently I do it, the more natural and easier it gets. But if I go some days without practicing it, it will be much harder at the start but about 10/20 minutes in I'll begin to be able to discern the notes a lot easier and quicker. In my humble uninformed opinion, absolute pitch could be a skill to be honed and mastered like any other. After a short amount of time I already see progress compared to where I was, even though I've always had really good overall memory, auditory, visual and even with smell or feeling. As soon as you tell yourself something is impossible, it becomes a lot harder. Broaden your horizons and you'll unlock an infinite realm of possibility. Not just with sound but for every other aspect of your life.
Sorry for the long ass rant. Great informative video! Went over a lot of important topics I hadn't heard about before on UA-cam.
Really I'm much thankful to you, This is the timely video which is more encouraging and enlightening one who practice music(God)in their middle ages, music is more than brain,pls keep this psychological boost 👍,music is not only for the pocket as the Golden words of Mozart "Mind,hearth and fingers"
Come on guys!!
I am also in favour of adults learning, and trying to pick up the slight nuanses of each chromatic tone, in order to recognize them by ear in an instant. The problem is, it comes very hard for adults to achieve, and if it does show up every now and then, it's very unstable and prone to fall over like deck of cards. The perception is affected also when we get a headache or anxiety.
Babies and toddlers only, can develop it through the right training. There can be some adults, who were successful with it, but it's not on the same level, as the child's perception.
I think there's a parallel with language learning here. There's a fundamental difference in the way that adults and children acquire languages, and I think the same goes for pitch. As you say, children seem to learn AP with relative ease whereas learning it as an adult is seriously challenging. I'm not sure that it 'falls over like a deck of cards.' Plenty of people develop pretty strong AP for their instrument's timbre and learn over time to generalise this to the other timbres. So I disagree that only children can learn it, but agree that the way in which they learn it is different, and the end result is often weaker. That said, there are a handful of cases of adults that have learned second languages to the extent they are essentially indistinguishable from those that acquired them in childhood (see: Ioup, G., Boustagui, E., El Tigi, M., & Moselle, M. (1994). Reexamining the critical period hypothesis: A case study of successful adult SLA in a naturalistic environment. Studies in second language acquisition, 16(1), 73-98.). If something like the fundamental difference hypothesis applies to AP, then this is promising. Also note that those that have acquired AP in childhood display varying degrees of AP, it's not a simple case of childhood AP = excellent, adult AP = poor.
@@SamLeak Hi Sam
Basically we agree on about everything in this subject. Though toddlers learn AP much quicker than adults, and to a much higher level, there are out there some adults, who have managed to develop it through training. My question is- Do You think, digital instruments are good enough to learn it? Is lestening to a recorded sounds good enough?
I still believe, that a brain can do wanders, and even an adult one.
Why do people in the media regard AP as a party trick? How many morons like that, are out there?
For anyone interested, here’s a talk about AP that I gave recently for Cambridge Jazz Festival: ua-cam.com/video/9poB_XBsjP0/v-deo.html
Your video is quite informative and touches on many aspects on the phenomenon of perfect pitch. Respectfully, however, I believe that Rick Beato is 100% correct on his position. Like yourself, I can accurately and consistently name unseen notes played on a piano, but I definitely do not have perfect pitch. This is because I am unable to name notes played on the extreme high or low octave ranges on a piano, nor can I name each individual note played in a complex chord voicing on a piano (such as 9th, 11th & 13th chords and their variants). Individuals with absolute, perfect pitch do have the abilities that I lack in this regard. I cannot speak for you, but my ability to name unseen notes within medium octave ranges is actually relative pitch, because I am essentially utilizing an interval recognition technique relative to the 440 A note that I have burned into my memory from years of repetition. In contrast, children who are within the age range of heightened neuroplasticity in the brain -- roughly 6 years of age and under -- can actually learn perfect pitch by way of pathway changes occurring in the brain during that crucial time for learning languages, phonetics and sounds. I firmly believe that once a child exceeds age 6 or 7, that phase of neuroplasticity is forever arrested, and thus, developing perfect pitch is no longer possible.
1) I am unable to name notes played on the extreme high or low octave ranges on a piano
There are people with perfect pitch that have the same problem
If you know any perfect pitch violin player play them some bass notes and usually they cant hear them
for example
Christiaan van Hemert was violin player who now is mainly manouche guitar player who has PP
but he cant recognize the notes of the guitar that are outside the range of the violin
2) nor can I name each individual note played in a complex chord voicing on a piano (such as 9th, 11th & 13th chords and their variants
Again the same not every Perfect Pitch person can do this either
Perfect Pitch musician =/= Jacob collier or rick beato kid
Rick Beato actually did a video recently with another guy who has perfect pitch and he couldn't find all the chords rick was playing
I pray I haven’t found this video too late to take part in the experiment. I’ll fill out the form after this comment however I wanted to say a few things here to respond to this fantastic video Mr. Leak:
Firstly I just wanted to say I greatly appreciate how you were willing to criticize Rick Beato’s findings on this topic as I myself did the same after viewing his perfect pitch videos. The fact that you provided a slew of evidence to support your claims is also fantastic.
In regards to my experiences with attempting to learn perfect pitch, as a 19 year old with around 5-6 months of off and on training I think I’m at the exact level you are in regards to your abilities. I can easily identify and reproduce single notes, especially on instruments and even with random noises although for some I find it harder than others. My main struggles come with reproducing complex strings of notes like as you mentioned, would be present in a band or orchestra. It feels like there’s so much going on it’s difficult to get anything other than bits and pieces of certain notes.
Through my findings, I’m pretty sure a common trait with individuals who undoubtedly have perfect pitch from childhood all have very good memory capabilities, like it’s an innate characteristic of those people. It’s because of this that we can usually see people with perfect pitch play songs on one hearing alone, even with the ability to identify notes without reference that would require a good memory to retain all that information in one hearing alone.
Also, to somewhat contradict what I just mentioned, I noticed a lot of these people with perfect pitch who can also play songs on one hearing aren’t doing so solely from perfect pitch, but they also incorporate music theory into deciphering what is being played to reproduce it. To do this they might quickly identify the chord progression, key signature, and look for patterns such as motives to piece everything together; in other words they aren’t just simply hearing every single note by itself, they’re using shortcuts.
Those are all my comments regarding this topic that I’ve found in the past few months. I’d greatly appreciate your thoughts on this and I’m looking forward to the experiment!
Hi Sam
I can see, that You know a lot about the subject of perfect pitch.
Is it OK to ask You some questions about developing perfect pitch in toddlers?
Of course, what would you like to know?
@@SamLeak Hi Sam
I am teaching my 2 year young nephew listening to sounds and music We started when he was about 5 months or earlier, playing mostly classical music. Then after 1 year, started playing also diatonic tones, showing colours with the tones. Now after the 2 Nd year I have started using sharps,
I am still playing the classical music for him,mainly baroque and romantic composers. Do it every day regularly.
Do You think it's the good way?
@@jackkurasik8371 Google the Eguchi method. You have to make your children identify chords. The Taneda method has some games that could be played to make it more fun for the children
Marvels or heard that perfect pitch starts to drift a little as a person gets older. Anything on that?
Can a person with trained absolute pitch spot the difference between 440Hz vs 441Hz? How far does the resolution go? I understand that they can spot that a note is slightly sharp or flat but if I played 441Hz, would someone really say ''slighlty sharp A4''?
Yes some of them are so anal about exact pitches that they can actually hear a 441 Hz and say that its sharp.
@@dragorn3212 It's easy to hear the difference between groups of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 but to spot that something vibrated 441 times per second instead of 440 or 439 without a reference seems impossible to me. Unless that sound is in a dyad grouped together with 440 or 880, then there would be a lot of audible beating and that sharp note would be easily identifiable. So, what's going on? Have they internalized and labeled the resonance of their own voice/body and then use it as a reference to identify the sounds outside their body? It's then also a game of confidence, since this process can't work if I don't trust my inner reference.
@@dragorn3212 Then again, the 5th string on my guitar is A2 55hz and half a step up would only be 3,27hz (in 12TET). I can clearly hear the difference so 1hz is actually a lot.
to me it sounds like your argument is essentially "babies, how do they even work? since we can't ask them directly, we can't KNOW anything for sure. therefore my interpretation of the studies are just as valid as any other argument"
Any news on this?
Absolutely(pun intended) fantastic video.
Amazing what kind of nonsense one can obliterate when one demands citations to buttress arguments. Any conclusions reached under the conditions and methodology of that first study must be regarded as spurious at best.
If you show 100 random people 10 shades of blue and ask them to name the colors. Are all the people that can’t name the colors correctly unable to learn color recognition?
How's your perfect pitch getting along?
Hey! I don’t claim to have anything more than ‘heightened tonal memory,’ or ‘party trick perfect pitch.’ I can recognise the pitches and produce them absolutely but there are lots of things that people we’d think of as having ‘true’ absolute pitch can do that I’d struggle with (or rely on RP for at least). There isn’t any particularly good reason to think that HTM isn’t simply a facet of AP though, as opposed to something totally different. My current thoughts are along these lines:
• there’s ample evidence that AP can be learned in adulthood to some degree
• childhood learning of e.g., a first language appears to be fundamentally different to adulthood learning of a second
• there are some cases of people that have learned second languages in adulthood to the extent that they are essentially indistinguishable from native speakers
• adult language learning appears to utilise general adult problem solving strategies rather than a likely innate system used by children. Adults will also focus on the aspects of learning that are most suited to their goals, and so more often than not do not acquire the language in its entirety in the same way that a child learner would be expected to
• perhaps AP works in the same kind of way, and HTM (i.e., being able to recognise and produce the pitches absolutely through learned associations) represents some important facet of AP, much like grammaticality represents an important facet of language learning, but not the full picture.
So I guess time will tell if HTM turns out to be a facet of ‘true’ AP or whether it is an entirely different thing. There isn’t conclusive evidence one way or the other.
On a personal level, as a musician the most important thing to me is that I can use it musically. It’s promising that I’m finding it more and more musically useful with time, but practically speaking I do still rely on my relative pitch a lot of the time. We’ll see how it develops! I’m optimistic but only time will tell.
It will be interesting when I get around to the data analysis for the experiment I’ve been running in association with this video (for my PhD). I’ll be doing this in the next few months, so watch this space :)
@@SamLeak Thanks for the reply! Those are some really interesting points you bring up. I have been thinking about trying to develop it myself; it would be interesting to see if I can, and also pretty neat if it worked. I have good relative pitch but no absolute pitch, therefore I cannot figure out a pitch without a reference. And although you definitely don't need absolute pitch to be a fantastic musician (i.e. most people don't), I would obviously still like to be able to recognise pitch to a certain level. Is your experiment still running? Either way, I look forward to seeing the results.
Can I still do the experiment? I just signed up but I’m not sure if you’re still collecting data.
I believe we don't problem hearing it we have problem labeling a sound
It used to be you made your babies listen to classical music to make them smart. Now you do it to give them perfect pitch!
neither will work
Tell us how you trained yourself already :)
Haha - the experiment is ongoing, so no more info yet. But I will be putting up more on this in the future (in theory the PhD is done by September.. wish me luck!). In the interest of not making too grand a claim, I'd definitely recommend checking out this part of the video if you haven't already: ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html
If you want to train yourself to recognise and produce notes absolutely then the way I taught myself is pretty much the method I'm testing for this experiment: forms.gle/5xn49nVxif5WTNaX7
@@SamLeak I wish you luck !
Interestingly, according to your definition, Rick might have absolute pitch already: he can sing songs at its original key (even after different notes are played in the beginning to interrupt). See the first two minutes of this video ua-cam.com/video/YBXCizXEabI/v-deo.html.
Thanks for the share, that's interesting! I think David Ross would classify what he's calling 'pitch imagery' as 'heightened tonal memory.' The interesting thing is, that all being true, he'd pass a great many of the absolute pitch tests that are the basis of the literature that he's using to back up his arguments about 'true absolute pitch.' So it's a messy circle he's in there. Anyway, I hadn't seen that video - thank you.
@@SamLeak I've seen him demonstrate his heightened tonal memory and I'd also venture that with some consistent, daily practice, he could easily piggy back on that ability to bring his note identification skills up to a pretty impressive level. I honestly don't understand why people who have that ability don't think, "Hey, let me get an app that plays random notes or something and hone this skill."
This is one of the PP myths. It is possible to have “vocal chord memory” this doesn’t mean PP. PP means the ability to identify pitch by ear. One can try singing the same pitch and start to “remember” by muscle memory the vocal pitch. It’s a parlor trick but it’s not PP.
He is wrong because I did it at 27 using the course by D.L. Burge. I did not have any bias or belief that it couldn't be done.
Prove it, dl burge is a known phony. His perfect pitch course is ridiculous.
@@wiltisdabest I just told you that it can be effective if you have the right mindset and approach.
@@jment34 no it can't. he's a snake oils man
"East Asia" is China, Japan, and Korea. Japanese and Korean are not tonal. Lao, Thai, and Vietnamese are tonal languages but those countries are in Southeast Asia. Southeast Asia is considered to be a part of either East Asia or South Asia. Burmese (Myanmar), Filipino (Tagalog), Indonesian, Khmer (Cambodian), and Malay are not tonal. All Chinese "dialects" are tonal, so that brings in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and lots of people in all the other countries. Most tonal languages have mostly "contour tones", which are not at all like musical notes. The ones that are more like musical notes are called "register tones". Mandarin has only one, high. Cantonese has two, a low and a high. Thai has two, mid and low, and Vietnamese has one, "level". But in Thai even the register tones have a contour at either the beginning or end, and I'd bet most register tones in most tonal languages actually have contour. The high tone in Mandarin does seem like a musical note though. But "tone" does not mean "pitch" at all, it's kind of a misnomer. A tone in a tonal language can involve length, especially in Vietnamese and most Chinese "dialects" other than Mandarin. They can also involve other types of phonation, notably "creaky voice" aka "vocal fry". This is a distinguishing feature of two Vietnamese tones and seems to be present in Mandarin tone 3 sometimes.
But tones are always relative. Different speakers have different voice pitches, and even the same speaker will vary their pitch through a sentence, so even the same speaker in the same sentence won't pronounce all the same tones at the same pitch.
I'm not saying there is zero relationship between tones in tonal languages and musical notes, but it is a lot less than the term "tonal language" suggests to people who haven't studied linguistics or a tonal language. Interestingly, in Mandarin when you sing you completely ignore the lexical tones of the words, but in at least some of the other tonal languages, the lexical tones are overlaid on the musical notes. The lyrics are not chosen so that lexical tones match musical notes in either case.
Very interesting video! I think Rick is going more by his gut feelings and falls into some of the traps a non scientist typically falls into when trying to do science.
Interesting. Thanks for the knowledge.
People with perfect pitch hear all sounds in terms of notes etc.
I used Rick Beato’s method on my son and he has perfect pitch and my other children don’t. So in my opinion it works.
What do you see as his method? This video isn’t really an argument against the claim that children can learn absolute pitch, it’s more against the claim he makes that adults can’t..
@@SamLeak I know that. You did make comments concerning babies and high information music teaching them perfect pitch. I have a number of children and only 1 has perfect pitch. He had high information music played to him every day from before he was born up until the age of 2. You could say I conducted the experiment and it worked.
16:59 Genie rescue reference & linguistic learning critical period ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html
Accepting any limits on human capability is a risky proposition. I would not strive for perfect pitch myself. I'd probably go nuts from out of tune sounds in my surroundings. Relative pitch is likely more powerful because it involves relationship. Perfect pitch is just good memory frankly. I can remember the sound of my guitar low E string and sing it. But that's it No other notes.
Hi Mr Sam. It's really that important the "absolute pitch" ? I hear about some great musicians doesn't have it. For them most important is the "relative pitch".
Hi Ricardo. It's an interesting question. I think one thing of interest (which I go into my video) is what absolute pitch (AP), and relative pitch (RP), actually refer to. You come across a lot of musicians that describe themselves as having RP, but when quizzed turn out to have what Bachem saw as AP limited to timbre. A great problem with the literature is that there isn't really an agreement on the definition of either. David Ross provides an interesting distinction between 'Heightened Tonal Memory' and 'Absolute Pitch Encoding' in his work. Gary Karpinski splits RP down into two skills: interval identification, and functional RP. Throughout the literature you often see RP described as though it is the former of these only, whereas practically-speaking RP musicians tend to use a mixture of both, with an emphasis on the latter. We can think of functional RP as applying explicit labels to the transposable feelings that we get from music. For example, the chord build on the 4th degree of a major scale has a massively different feeling to the chord built on the 6th degree. AP isn't a dichotomous 'you have it or you don't' skill, so it's not as straightforward as saying RP is better than AP, or vice versa - a lot of people that use RP also have a degree of AP. I would say that RP is an invaluable skill though, and that there are countless examples of people with great RP and without any AP ability, who are nonetheless fantastic musicians. If you had a limited time in which to learn music in and had to focus on learning AP or RP, I'd definitely tell you to go with the latter - the immediate musical benefits are massive. AP is clearly a valuable ability though, which opens up possibilities that RP can't. I don't think that valuing one has to be at the expense of the other - they're different.
Not going to matter when your on stage and cant hear your instrument anyway, thats why LED tuner pedals exist, so it doesn't really matter for a musicians other than when music gets to such a high level of different level that it merges with real scientific research. Seems like an overexxagerative thing to worry about in general to me personally.
@@SamLeak How is it possible to have a degree of something that is absolute?
@@BotondBokor Hi! You might find this video worth a watch :) ua-cam.com/video/3HxzDZUzHi8/v-deo.html
If this explanation of the baby experiment is correct, the "experiment" is entirely useless. I suspect that this is not the reference that Beato was referring to. Obviously, what is in question here is not the baby's ability to recognize pitches as a baby, but that being exposed to complex music as a baby can assist the person to develop their perfect pitch. One could assume, based on how much faster small children learn everything, as compared to adults, that small children have an advantage at learning anything. Perhaps it takes a baby 2 or 3 years to develop this skill, whereas it may take an adult 15 years, all other factors being equal. Good luck testing that experiment. I've seen some adults who claim their developed their perfect pitch but when demonstrating they talk about associating the pitch with a feeling or color, meaning they are adding and additional associative step to the process. This is very different from the level of proficiency demonstrated by someone like Dylan Beato.
It was an interesting and clever message....
" _Тhe Absolute Pitch training experiment is now closed. The data analysis is well underway, so more with you asap!_ "
Three years ago - this was the last video on the channel. The last! Did the author go crazy, was he abducted by aliens, maybe he went deaf or did he look into the abyss? Or maybe you got married? What happened?
It's admittedly taking me longer to produce a follow up video than I would have liked. I have my PhD viva in September, so I'll certainly be posting another one after that. Lots to say (unless the aliens get me ;) )
@@SamLeak I wish you luck!
@@PopovSB thank you!
@@SamLeak I can see on University of Cambridge that you completed your viva with flying colours. I am also interested in your work - do you know when you'll post another video.
Great video! Am I wrong to think of it as "born with" perfect pitch as opposed to "developing" perfect pitch? In other words a God given "gift" opposed to a developed talent/ability. I translated Rick's video as adults can't "attain" the "gift"/"ability" of perfect pitch sans training. I know Rick has mentioned the ability of "relative" pitch, which performed on it's own, as you did at the start of this video, appears as "perfect" pitch. Personally, knowing one could gain the ability to recognize notes and chords, similar to Dylan is exciting! For me, I envy anyone that can name off notes and chords. Don't know if I have enough years left to attain/develop absolute pitch at this point. Anyway, very interesting video and very well presented. Going to try your training link now! Be well!
Hi. Thanks for checking out my video. Those are great questions! There are different theories about the genesis of absolute pitch (AP).
Regarding a genetic basis for it. in a 1998 study, Siamak Baharloo and Nelson Freimer found 44/92 (48%) AP musicians had first degree relatives with AP, as compared to 73/520 (14%) of non-AP musicians. However they also found a found a correlation between early musical training and the development of AP. In addition to this, they found that 9 out of 15 siblings of AP possessors also had AP. This can be compared with just 2 out of 23 siblings of non-AP possessors. However this last finding might be explainable by their having similar musical upbringings.
In 2009 Elizabeth Theusch ran a genome-wide linkage study of 73 families, with at least one non-parent-child relative pair with AP. The statistic used to estimate how likely two genes are to be inherited together (due to how close they are on a chromosome), was technically significant, but pretty close to the cut-off point for this. Also, the number of markers that were used (6090) is low by today’s standards. It's interesting, but very far from conclusive.
There isn't much in the way of compelling evidence for a purely genetic theory, but that doesn't mean that there definitely isn't a genetic component. The pitches themselves are man-made, and differ between cultures, but that doesn't mean there isn't some genetic predisposition for learning to label notes, whatever your pitch system is. It's possible.
There is a lot of support for learning theories of AP, and as Beato has noted, a lot of theories revolve around the idea that it's learnt in childhood and becomes more difficult (or impossible) to learn after a critical period. As I go into in the video, the studies that focus on absolute pitch learnt like, or as a feature of, language are really quite flawed (and Beato's arguments mostly rest upon these, thus my video). It seems much more likely that AP development is related to early musical upbringing, and in particular the approach taken to aural learning. Maria Vraka has compared Greek and Japanese attitudes, and approaches, to early musical training and has found a stark difference. AP is more prevalent among Japanese musicians, and this could be explainable by this. Ken'ichi Miyazaki (who is also the scientist that discovered a white-key advantage for AP) similarly cites cultural approaches to music education as an explanation.
One major problem that we have is that studies have found AP abilities to be continuously distributed, so it's not a dichotomous 'you have it or you don't' ability. As I go into in the video, scientists have broken the skill down into several different types. One example comes from David Ross, who has split Absolute Pitch possessors into those with 'Heightened Tonal Memory,' and those who are 'Absolute Pitch Encoders.' The former incorporates people who have specific pitch examples stored in their memory, such as the sounds of the notes on their own instruments. Speaking slightly more anecdotally from my experience as a musician and teacher, this form of AP is regularly developed in adulthood by musicians. Many musicians who've learnt this erroneously describe it as relative pitch (RP).
Gary Karpinski has split RP into two types:
- ‘functional relative pitch’ - the ability to recognise pitches with reference to a tonality; and
- ‘interval identification’ - the ability to acontextually identify the distances between pitches
The major difference between AP and RP is that RP involves the need for an external reference point (if someone tells you which key you're in, or gives you a starting note, then you can work out everything else from there), and AP doesn't. One way to think of 'functional relative pitch’ is that it's ability to label all of the emotions that you get from music that has a key centre (i.e., tonal music). For example, in C major: chord 1 is C major, chord 2 is D minor, chord 3 is E minor.. etc. In *any* key, chord 4 has a very different feeling to chord 1.. and to chord 2... and in fact to all of the other available chords. Each numerical chord has a totally different feeling to the others. 'Functional relative pitch’ involves learning the labels for these feelings such that labelling them is quite quick and intuitive.
When I complete the note-naming task at the beginning of the video, I'm actually doing that with a self-taught (in adulthood) form of AP, not RP. I've managed to teach myself to recognise the inherent quality of each individual note. However, as I explain at the end of the video, this may just be a case of 'Heightened Tonal Memory', and I think is actually quite common among professional musicians. I certainly don't claim to have absolute ears that are anything like Dylan's (fortunately I do have a strong sense of RP to rely upon too)! But the point is that the way I'm recognising notes there is *absolutely*, not relatively.
In the scientific literature, there are a whole range of tests for AP, but they all tend to revolve around recognising acontextual single pitches. As I go into in the video, I'm not convinced that these forms of measurement are capable of capturing differences between possessors with a more highly developed form of absolute pitch. The cluster of top scores achieved by these possessors suggests a ceiling effect to me. I think this is a problem. Also there isn't agreement as to the definition of AP, or types of AP (similarly for RP in fact), which adds a lot of mess into the literature. A lot of the findings about AP rely upon definitions and tests that I doubt many musicians would accept.. so this poses a problem.
As I go into in this video, the jury is out as to whether AP can be learnt in adulthood - researchers are still actively studying this area, and there's actually suggestive evidence that people might be able to (2 studies in 2019 successfully taught a form of AP to some adults, which is to say that they taught adults to recognise all of the individual pitches absolutely). For now, we don't know the answer to this question (which is one of the reasons that I'm doing my own research on it - it's an interesting area to explore, and one that could be of a lot of interest to musicians!).
@@SamLeak Thanks for the further exploration/information on this subject! I find it fascinating. I will be looking for further information from your investigation and study on absolute pitch!
Very interesting. I'll have to agree with Beato, that these people who have it did not purposefully learn it by memorizing an A, then over time a B, and so on. Then memorizing random bunches of notes together.....picking out the individual notes at once, complex structures....and then calling out notes and then singing them back. As he said, where are all the people, adults, learning this? He hasn't met any. Ive never heard of any either. The singer Ed Sheeran has perfect pitch, I've seen him. You can make any sound with anything and he can say what notes are there. It just blows my mind. Ya either have it or ya don't. If ya don't ya can't get it, thats pretty plain. I'll let yall try to figure the whys, but the what is clear to see. ✌️
I agree with Beato on that being a totally ineffective method for learning AP! The available evidence suggests it's a continuously distributed skill (i.e., it's not a 'you have it or you don't' ability) and it can be improved through training in adulthood. Similarly to language learning, the process seems (perhaps unsurprisingly) to be quite different for children and adults.
When people like Rick say no adult has ever acquired perfect pitch, do they mean it's never been done in a study or it's never been done period? All his reasons were so bad like pointing to accomplished musicians and saying if anyone were going to acquire it, it would be them... Well, no, not if they didn't specifically train for it. There are incredible musicians who don't know any music theory or don't have relative pitch down yet those are evidently learnable skills. What would be considered gaining absolute pitch because I've been training it as an adult and I can recognise every note now with high accuracy and without a reference. I only have about 18 hours of practice so far and I'm pretty confident I can improve further. Will I get it to the point where I never have to think about it and never get it wrong? I don't know. I am optimistic.
Many adults have learned absolute pitch. When they do they are ignored or just denied.
@@Tritone I've made a channel and I will be documenting my journey with learning perfect pitch as an adult.
See my comment. I learned as an adult (19-20) through David Lucas Burge’s course.
Rick is incorrect and repeats many debunked myths about PP. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Sadly, most do not understand PP and how it really works.
F# has a piercing vibration while E-flat is more mellow. This is how Burge describes it and each pitch has its own unique character.
Why do the Chinese music use pentatonic music?
If it was possible to acquire this skill, there would be examples of people doing so.
And even if it's possible, then it's SO hard to get, that you're better off investing your time into something else. I'm sure a lot of people are very fixated at this goal of acquiring perfect pitch, yet no one seems to have succeeded. Which makes the effort/reward ratio questionable.
You talk about new approach in studying, however a big question is whether the result will be retained after a month with no practice? a year? After listening microtonal for a week straight? lol
Anyway, "Neuralink" kind of devices will fix it for humans eventually, in about 20 years.
Thanks for the comment! The thing that's interesting is that there are different types of AP and it's manifested in a wide range of abilities. It's not true that no one has succeeded, in that lots of people develop timbral absolute pitch through familiarity with their instrument (and in a great many cases they can then generalise this to a much wider range of timbres, which is to say they can recognise pitches absolutely regardless of context). A confounding factor is that lots of musicians erroneously refer to this as RP, presumably seeing the internalised timbre as a point of reference. David Ross has noted that people with AP of this sort more often than not remember having developed it, which separates them from 'AP encoders', who usually don't remember ever not having had it. In terms of the effort/reward ratio, that's a fair point. The purpose of this video isn't to make a value judgement on AP vs. RP. It's intended to keep people informed on where the science is at currently. Whether or not people are interested in trying to learn it, it's certainly an interesting area for research!
@@SamLeak Thanks for reply, when I mention Perfect pitch I mean the "true" kind, where you can instantly tell the note without having to do any kinds of recalling, calc, or comparison in your head - it's like seeing a colour and knowing it's red. And it even works beyond regular 12-tone scale, for any timbre, be it guitar, piano, glass of water or washing machine. They just hear it "wellll it's kinda between B and B flat, but closer to B". Everything else to me is kind of gimmick, although undoubtedly useful, but I still consider it a workaround and not a "perfect pitch". And for different people different kinds of workarounds will be useful - some will manage to remember that one C# on their old piano that resonates with their second left upper tooth, some will remember how the first note of "SOOOmebody" from shrek sounds, someone will start recalling sounds by involving muscle memory and imagining how they lay fingers on piano to make a chord, etc...
Anyway, I support your research, it'd be great if you eventually came up with a simple working set of exercises that will help in developing different perfect pitch workarounds.
Those are interesting points. The problem is, where do you draw the line on a continuous distribution of abilities? How do you tease apart what is 'true' absolute pitch from other types? When you look into the literature on this you find it isn't easy. In fact the problem of definition plagues the literature.
Without claiming it as 'True Absolute Pitch', I've taught myself to recognise and produce pitches absolutely in adulthood, and I don't have problems with the things that you're describing. I don't do any mental calculations, I just recognise the pitches when I hear them (in a similar way to your colour comparison). I also don't have problems with buzzes and beeps etc. I talk about my own strengths and limitations here: ua-cam.com/video/HORXRnOSC20/v-deo.html
While a minimalist definition of AP as 'the ability to label and produce pitches absolutely' doesn't live up to the kinds of musical tasks that can be completed by people that we anecdotally describe as having true perfect pitch (and I know exactly where you're coming from with this - someone like Jacob Collier is a clear-cut case of AP, right? But what of what he has is down to AP specifically?), a messier definition comes with its own problems. How do we tease apart individual experience from the ability itself? Might we expect pianists to be better at hearing dense clusters of notes? Violinists to be better at distinguishing differences in tuning (for example, a friend of mine (an organist) has one of the most impressive cases of AP that I've ever come across, but claims not to be particularly good at detecting discrepancies in tuning)? Does our day-to-day usage of 'perfect pitch' actually fit into a singular neat definition, once we delve into it more? How do we know that the thing separating a 'true' possessor (if we can even agree upon what that means) from others isn't just the nature of their experience?
Thank you for supporting the research! I'm running a training experiment, if you're interested in taking part (no worries if not): forms.gle/5xn49nVxif5WTNaX7
@@SamLeak Did you try to purposefully alter/lose/ruin your acquired AP during your research? i. e. by listening to microtonal music for week(s), or listening to pitch shifted existing Western music by values that are only fractions of semitone?
I, for example, just like most people, am so dense when it comes to absolute frequency values, that I get used to tonal changes instantly (sigh). When I hear "new" way the music sounds, I immediately forget how it used to originally sound. When comparing side by side, I do hear up to 2¢ tonal difference, but it doesn't really matter, when the point is to remember the certain pitch.
When I, for example, take a song I know very well, and pitch shift it by 0.1 semitone, it literally doesn't bother me at all, and I'm not constantly thinking that this E is not really an E.
What about you? Can you actually shift your playlist down 0.1 semitone and after a couple days of listening still clearly realize that it indeed does sound flat?
Regarding your points about types of "AP", I agree, there are a lot of degrees of how much people can get out of it in different situations, but to me it doesn't look much like the "AP" question anymore.
It's more complicated and It's more like a general brain & inner ear ability to perform spectral analysis and retain tonal information for considerable amounts of time.
I think that the "perfect pitch" term should just become more precise, and follow its own name and represent the following: When a person is able to correctly recognise and produce ONE single note / pitch at a time, without references and recalls, within a certain acceptable deviation (let's say, 1¢), without having over-time skill deterioration, and nothing more.
Everything else above that should be classified accordingly - to quickly exaggerate, let's say ability to recognise all notes in 7-note chord, with 99.9% success ratio, shall be named "level 7 harmonic AP" or something. Yes, Jacob Collier's "grade" would probably consist of 20 words describing all the spatial and temporal abilities, but my point is that it shall be enough to only guess 1 note without references or skill degradation/offset, for it to be called "AP". So in my own vision, perfect pitch is more about pure frequency detection, so in theory it's totally plausible to say "Dude has perfect pitch but can't tell 3 notes apart in the chord, when played harmonically".
@@spx730 I haven't tried to 'ruin' what I've learned as such, but I am starting to test myself with sets that include quarter tones, so as to get better at fine tuning. Interestingly I find that sometimes I sing a note then play it on the piano and think I've got it a semitone wrong (which is quite disorienting cause I'm sure I've got it right) only to play the note a semitone away and find the note I sang sounds, of the two, much more like the pitch I was trying to sing. My guess, although I should test it more formally, is that when this happens I'm singing within the pitch category that I think I am, but quite out of tune. I'll add again, for clarity, that I don't think of myself as having 'true absolute pitch' (although, as we've already discussed, we can question what does qualify for this), but I can recognise and recall notes absolutely.
Regarding the way that tuning can affect absolute pitch recognition, I'd recommend checking out this: ua-cam.com/video/3HxzDZUzHi8/v-deo.html
As I mentioned, I have an organist friend who has very impressive AP who says he doesn't notice changes in tuning too much - his ears adjust to what he's hearing. He'd obviously notice a note category change, but within that category he isn't overly sensitive to the tuning differences. Interestingly, he once was playing an accompaniment on an instrument tuned to Baroque pitch (which he says doesn't bother him too much, he can make the mental adjustment) where he, in a moment of confusion, played a passage at Baroque pitch in one hand and concert pitch in the other.
Yes I think you're right about people's varying memories and abilities to deconstruct chords etc. While a lot of people with AP are very good at doing this, these skills might be separable from AP itself. Incidentally, I think the 'acceptable deviation' could fall under this bracket too - fine tuning is another area that quite probably represents specific musical experience.
It sounds like you're essentially in favour of the minimalist definition of AP, with the other facets of what is normally seen as perfect pitch seen as just that: 'facets' of musical skill in addition to AP. It's tough to say... being able to recognise pitches without a reference note is a necessary condition for absolute pitch, but might not be sufficient. We have a cultural construct of 'perfect pitch' that has a lot more to it than the minimalist definition allows. So we can take this in one of two ways:
• 'Perfect Pitch' - the broader cultural phenomenon.. no one definition, but there is family of features, groups of which may entail 'perfect pitch', but few of these features are entailed by 'perfect pitch'. Studying perfect pitch involves studying the individual features. We're examining a cultural construct of which being able to recognise pitches absolutely is just one (crucial) part
• Minimalist definition of AP. This is what you've said you're behind. Absolute pitch is the basic skill of being able to recognise notes without a reference note. The various AP abilities are then studied as their own separable skills, with this as a basis.
Another thing that throws a spanner in the works is, as David Ross has noted, that the same outward skill could have different neural underpinnings. There may be different mechanisms to achieve the same endpoint. For example, he draws a clear distinction between 'Heightened Tonal Memory' possessors, who he thinks draw upon specific stored archetypes, and 'Absolute Pitch Encoders' who don't.
I think the main thing to take from all of this is that it's a very active area of research that currently raises more questions than it answers!
Are you also able to identify each single note of a complex chord played simultaneously? That'd be awesome.
You don't actually need perfect pitch to do that, but yes, people with perfect pitch can do that
....his son sings flat too......my teacher had p.p. and he could sing any note at any time
Where are you at Sam??
I just made a video on this, I have perfect pitch, started playing violin at 3, but when I was 17 I started playing the french horn, and shortly thereafter I had also had perfect pitch in the key of F. It was as though I memorized the notes a fifth higher almost instantly. I am now 51 and still have perfect pitch in C or F. To this day I can choose if I want to hear in C or F, and then play along with the fingerings for either violin or horn. My mind "sees" the notes either in C or in F, so I'm not quickly transposing, it's just instantly there. Is this unusual? Maybe it's common, I just never knew anyone with perfect pitch who later on played an instrument in another key and had it there too. EDIT: I have perfect pitch with concert pitch in C, and perfect pitch with F instruments
@@gratiz5956 that's what I am saying, I DON'T need to convert them, I instantly know any note in C or F. That's why I said I am not quickly transposing. I 100% have perfect pitch, as a kid and now I can name any chord I hear, I can write down on staff paper every instrument part from a symphony by ear until the sounds gets too muddied. If asked to sing a note I can. I don't think you understand what instruments keyed in C and F means. It has nothing to do with the key of a song. Don't accuse people of feeling the need to be superior to others. What I said is the truth, it's perfect pitch on instruments keyed a fifth apart. Maybe this is common for all I know.
@@gratiz5956 I'm not going to argue with you, what I said is over your head, the keys two instruments are in has nothing to do with the key of a song, and I do not convert anything. If a trumpet player has perfect pitch, he is going to hear a note and name it as he would play it on a trumpet in B flat (so if he heard a concert A, he would really be playing a B flat on trumpet, so he would probably call an A a B flat, or else convert it to concert pitch in his head first). I have perfect pitch in concert pitch, which is the key all stringed instruments are in (C). I can write down an entire symphony by ear in concert pitch. I can sing any note in concert pitch. But horn is not concert pitch, it is in F, so if a horn player has perfect pitch and hears an A in concert pitch, he would be playing an E on the horn, and would probably say it's an E, unless he converted it first in his head to concert pitch. I also have perfect pitch in F and can write down all of the same symphony parts as if those instruments were all in F. I can do all of this instantly, there's no converting. That's why any song on pandora or the radio I can play along with on the violin or horn, without thinking. I hope someone else out there understands what I am talking about.
@@gratiz5956 that's not what I am talking about, that's a person memorizing one note and using it as a reference, all perfect pitch was memorized as a very young child, we are not born with it, that's why as memories fade it can be lost, you are not getting this. No one who memorizes a note can instantly write down each part of a symphony, or play along with something instantly, or sing any note instantly without a reference
@@GeorgiesGirlFPV I'm sorry.
English is my third language so I didn't realise what you meant by C and F.
I though you were talking about simple notes, not C-Maj and F-Maj note scales...
Wow, that was pretty stupid of me.
Depends on instrument? I mean you need to practise, but if you imagine F major (or any other major) as C major in piano for example and later convert those notes, it's easier.
The sane thing goes from minor to minor. (The distance between the notes are always the same.)
I think that It's a lot more difficult to go from Major to Minor note scale, because notes change a little bit, but music theory can fix that (again, piano as an example).
You can probably do it instantly because you have good understanding about music theory.
I don't think it's related to the perfect pitch though. EXCEPT like in your case you play violin.
If you play with violin I imagine it's a lot easier. (I never played violin, I have guitar, piano and accordion)
You only need music theory if you want to go from minor/major to major/minor.
If you have pseudo or quasi absolute pitch you should be able to do it immediately.
As for perfect pitch I don't know, in your case you can do it immediately for others perfect pitch can probably be a hindrance until they learn music theory?????? idk
(Or am I spouting bullshit even now? xD )
I get what you are saying - perfect pitch for concert c instruments, then perfect pitch a fifth higher for an F instrument. I've heard of people with perfect pitch in B flat instruments always hearing it in B flat, but having to transpose it to concert c. I've never known anyone with total perfect pitch like you have, very interesting.
I learned perfect pitch at 20