Do YOU Know The Rule? Casting Adventures From The 'Yard!
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- Which of these four cards would allow you to cast Adventures from the grave:
-Wrenn and Six's Emblem
-Six
-Underworld Breach
-Backdraft Hellkite
Shoutout to Jenn The Judge on Twitter for positing such an interesting rules question!
/ jenn_the_judge
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I never would of guessed that the rules worked this way. What other odd rules questions do you have?!
I've got a fun one: What happens if you copy Corrupted Shapeshifter with a Clone?
What happens if you manifest Nexus of Fate and the manifested creature dies?? Seems like a good one with Manifest coming back to Standard.
Just a small correction: Adventures are not alternative cost as you mentioned. It's an alternative mode that comes with a different casting cost. This is important because escape is an alternative cost and you can't apply two different alternative cost to the same spell. Underworld Breach only works because adventure is not an alternative cost.
Correct! Good catch. The intent was alternative mode w/ alternative cost or "alternative way to cast"
You should do a video on Lifeline. That card is single-handedly my favorite headache of a card to use in game
Lifeline is whacky
Edit: Lier works this way because of its static ability while Backdraft does not since it’s triggered ability will not see them as instants or sorceries.
Backdraft does work to cast adventures the same way Lier does. It looks at the card on the stack and decides its legality then. If it targeted an instant or sorcery card in the graveyard, it wouldn’t
In this case, it does not! Backdraft checks at time of attack, whereas Lier is a continuous effect like Wrenn’s Emblem!
Wasn’t thinking of that. I’ll edit my response 😊
An interesting rules interaction is how lands are actually colorless permanents even though they often produce mana of certain colors. So, for example, you can't pitch an Island to Force of Will because an Island isn't a blue permanent! They also don't count towards cards that care about how many permanents of a certain color you have in play. There's an exception if there's an effect in play that that causes all permanents to be a certain color at all times, which adds another layer of complexity.
Also on a related note, there's been so many new variations on old mechanics added to Magic over the last decade, I feel like we're closing in on another need to redo some of the rules. The fact that these four cards work in two different ways and how none of it makes intuitive sense just takes the fun out of the game in casual situations, at least to me. Like, I understand the differences in the interactions, but also if the card says it's a sorcery and something else modifies sorceries then, to me, it should work in the obvious way instead of the "um, actually" way. It's supposed to be a game not the supreme court! 🤭
I think that is a hilariously poignant note on the fact that lands are not the color that they produce mana for.
Similarly, I think that your second segment, while making some sense, could start a cascade of rules interpretations. If someone does pitch a land for Force of Will, do we call that out? Intuitively, we would see those lands as a color of permanent, because cardboard = blue. Where is the line there.
I think there is an interesting level of...i wouldnt say pedantry. But the odd offshoot rules that prevent or enable certain interactions in a game like magic *seems* inevitable.
But also, it's super fair to just let stuff slide at a table and not rule lawyer things, which feels like that is situational
I saw a video where someone pitched an Island to FoW and one of the players in the game is also a Magic judge, and I was so confused at the time but later realized there was an effect in play that made all permanents blue, and it was one of those moments of coming back to Magic after not playing for basically 20 years, where I'd forgotten how complicated Magic can be when you get down to the details!
I guess I was more coming at it from the game design POV. Another example is there's what, four or five variations of double-faced cards and they all work differently. Some you can choose which side when you cast it, others always cast from the front but then some flip once and others flip/flop based on other changes in the gamestate, and then even the ones that you can cast either side of from your hand still technically have a front face, so if something grants flashback to cards in the graveyard you can only flash the front face back, even if the back face would be granted flashback by the effect and even if you could cast the back from your hand, because they're only ever a single-sided (face up) permanent in the graveyard.
And while I get that it's fun to design new variations to keep the game interesting, the lack of standardization just makes it weird. I sometimes think it's because of MoDo and Arena, where the computer just gets it right for you, and it increasingly feels like paper magic is being left behind unless you have the Oracle text and an MTG rules forum open while you play... or you just do what feels right in your playgroup and then find out you don't know how to play your deck when you go to a more official game night!
I guessed nothing but breach, super surprised the emblem works that way. Even though it’s on the stack, the continuous effect applies when it becomes a ins/sor there because it’s coming from the graveyard?
Yep. Basically you can move anything to the stack whenever you want - but then the game checks legality of the cast from there. So moving it to the stack is fine. THEN the game checks, and since the instant part of the card is a viable selection, you're good
It seems strange with the W&S example, but when you look at other effects, it makes sense that it would check on the stack.
For example, Mystic Forge. Mystic Forge allows you to cast colorless or artifact spells from the top of your library. You are allowed to look at the card to check whether it meets these conditions, but your opponent is not, so they have no way to confirm if the top card of your library is what you say it is.
Of course, they will see the spell as soon as you try to cast it, which solves this problem...Unless you are casting a Morph spell, then it is still face-down on the stack and your opponent still cannot confirm whether or not it is colorless or an artifact.
When we consider this scenario, it is much easier to just check the spell on the stack then it is to pre-emptively check it.
Of course, there's also several other reasons that predate the Forge for why it works this way, but I find this is the easiest for new players to understand.
It would have been helpful to explain how underworld breach works in more detail. For example, does it make the adventure part of the card cost equal to the mana value of the non-adventure side?
Also would be interesting to mention how mdfcs work in these situations as well...
With regards to breach, the escape cost is equal to the mode selected and it’s associated mana cost. This isnt the same as alternate casting costs like dash and blitz, as something cant have two alternate cast costs
can't believe I got my Sixes backwards. I'll go cry in the corner now
How are we ever suppose to trust you again 😢
Your explanation for casting Adventures at 2:29 is incorrect, and was spread a lot because it makes good clickbait. Saying the game never checks for legality before you do something is not correct, it actually does in the case of putting a card onto the stack:
"601.2. To cast a spell is to take it from where it is (usually the hand), put it on the stack, and pay its costs, so that it will eventually resolve and have its effect. Casting a spell includes proposal of the spell (rules 601.2a-d) and determination and payment of costs (rules 601.2f-h). To cast a spell, a player follows the steps listed below, in order. A player must be legally allowed to cast the spell to begin this process (see rule 601.3)...
601.3. A player can begin to cast a spell only if a rule or effect allows that player to cast it and no rule or effect prohibits that player from casting it."
For the steps of casting a spell, you can fail and cause a rewind, but to BEGIN THE PROCESS of casting a spell (the definition of which is moving it onto the stack), you must first be able to name the rule or effect that is allowing it.
If it were not for this, you could take the top card of your opponent's deck, declare you are casting it, reveal it, and then go "oops, nothing is letting me cast that, back to the top it goes!", and then do the same thing for the second from the top, and then the third, revealing the entire contents and order of their deck, as well as your own if you like, and the opponent could do the same back to you.
The actual rule at play here is:
"715.3. As a player casts an adventurer card, the player chooses whether they cast the card normally or as an Adventure.
715.3a When casting an adventurer card as an Adventure, only the alternative characteristics are evaluated to see if it can be cast."
So while you have priority, you can evaluate all of your Adventures, the ones in your hand, graveyard, exile, deck, everywhere, and pretend the normal portion of the card does not exist, and that only the Adventure is printed on the card. While you are doing that, all static abilities that can affect them are evaluated to do so, and you can name those abilities as the reason you are allowed to cast the Adventure, and then move them to the stack.
While i see the point youre trying to make i think there are a few leaps and assumptions happening here.
The insinuation that “ope game never checks so do what you want” is what im saying - is odd. Especially using the term “click bait” which only works if it’s in the title or thumbnail…. Ya know. The click bait…
I appreciate the addendum and the additional detail, though leaning on people to name the rule that allows them to cast is the core issue to start with in a lot of gameplay errors.
@@TopdeckTech I never said you were click baiting, I said that the explanation itself is popular click bait, as in lots of people used it as click bait, and it circulated a lot because of that. I didn't mean to imply you were click baiting here, I meant you got click baited and got misinformed because of it. Sorry for the confusion.
@@AlexG0080 Ah i see. Regardless, the intent wasn't to say the game doesnt check for legality, but one sticking point here boils down to player knowledge. Of course someone would say "point to a rule that lets you take the top card of my deck and move it to the stack"
In something like this with regards to adventures, a lot of this information may *feel* logical to the pod and thus not be fact checked. The game checking whether something is legal or whether you have ruling to cast is, while true, down to player experience.
So in that, yes, I couldve defined more carefully that you need to be able to justify moving your thing to the stack. But this almost breaks parody with moving a permanent to the stack and claiming that Wrenn and Six is allowing it to happen.
So what i couldve done was discuss the notion of moving things to the stack and then rewinding if things fail. Which is interesting to consider for next time.
These videos are going to miss the mark sometimes. That's fine - expecting perfection sets the bar in a weird spot. What I ask though is that the energy through which you bring your corrections be less confrontational.
@@TopdeckTech You are not moving a permanent to the stack with Wren and Six's emblem:
"715.3a When casting an adventurer card as an Adventure, only the alternative characteristics are evaluated to see if it can be cast.
715.3b While on the stack as an Adventure, the spell has only its alternative characteristics."
You evaluate the Adventure in your graveyard as an instant or sorcery, determine that Wren and Six's emblem allows you to cast it, and then move that instant or sorcery to the stack, the game ignores the permanent completely throughout this whole process.
I apologize for seeming confrontational, but I just meant to explain to you WHY you were misinformed, and that this explanation for this interaction is completely, 100% incorrect. There is a rule that directly contradicts the very first sentence of the given explanation. I have edited my first comment as well.