I was thinking about how great it would be if we made a pre-2016 Commander format. Or maybe a pre-2019/pre-border change format. Called it the Cloud format for the old men who yell at clouds.
@@ryanhefner2011 I think we need like a tier 0/tier -1 Something where the recent jank pieces can be used. Would help let new players use their jank as well.
I’ve been saying it since the RC disbanded: WotC taking control is bad for magic the gathering. Not just for commander, but for the whole game. Power creep will go up in every format, cards will get even more expensive, and I wish the RC was still around fighting for the players. But I don’t blame the RC at all, this is on the assholes who sent death threats and doxxed them. It’s just a bad situation all around, worst of all for the RC.
I can't really see commander being all that fun to play anymore. I was looking forward to playing more commander with these bans. But now that WotC is in control, every decent deck will be so expensive that it's not fun.
You don't have to play the cards you don't like....easy. Some people like to play more than one or two games an evening. No one knows how wizards will truly run commander. Better than a group with no ties.
@@jonous2001I don't think anyone was suggesting that a group with no ties to the game should take over from the RC were they? Unless you mean that the RC themselves had no ties to the game, which is simply not true.
*HOLD IT!!* Traveler's Amulet is definitively NOT ramp; it is an example of Mana Fixing, as it filters your colors of mana by allowing you to search for the exact basic you need in the moment, but does NOT increase the amount of mana you would normally produce! That being said, i love your point of making sol rings different for each plane. It's why i love that every set gets its own unique basic land art, including the showcases, because even though lands are such a "yea duh" include, you can still make them Yours.
That's two incredibly good points you've raised. Yeah, I was wrong about the ramp BUT what you said about the land is such a perfect example I wish I'd thought of it to include here. I didn't because I didn't even consider them. There are so many different lands that they don't even trigger that part of my brain that's tired of seeing Sol Ring, and I'm actually interested to see which ones people choose to run. Fantastic observation that illustrates what I was trying to say perfectly. And now I'm annoyed I didn't think of it haha. Thank you
As a casual magic player, when I first learned of EDH, I loved the idea of taking cards made for 1v1 formats and trying to cook up a 100 card singleton deck that can handle having 3 opponents at once. The moment I learned cards were printed specifically for commander (like jewelled lotus), that enthusiasm waned a bit, but I was reassured by the philosophy of the rules committy and counted on them to at least keep the worst offenders in check. Now that it's all in the hands of the very same people who printed jewelled lotus in the first place... I'm not optimistic about the future.
It's like saying investing in diamonds or cars is bad. Everyone knows that they lose value everyday but people still do it. Someone wanting to invest in magic isn't a bad thing. You're just as bad as the people. Doxing or saying death threats just leave it alone it has nothing to do with you if someone wants to invest in something
Well it is also a matter of use. You can still use gold and diamonds. If They made it so you can no longer use them, they will drop in value and become a collector's item only. And investing in Magic is a risk, just like any other stock. Anyone that invested in the now banned cards, should have known this could happen at any time. Especially with 3 of them that had been on the ban watch list for a long time. If your only means of financial stability were any or all of these cards alone, then I have no sympathy for you. That's just dumb and you deserve it. Hate me if you will, I am not the one who had investment in card board. What if the game just dies one day. You always have to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. But in every investment, you win some, you lose some. Welcome to greed
@@abranlucero7246 It's not the same as investing in diamonds or cars. Cars and diamonds aren't a completely volatile thing that can change value on the whims of bannings or changes in the metagame based on new cars or diamonds being created.
@@abranlucero7246 Also, investing in diamonds is bad... they're useful sometimes because they're the hardest thing we regularly deal with, but that's their only REAL worth. The minute they leave DeBeers' hands they're nearly worthless. Don't buy diamonds, but buy DeBeers stock instead.
At the end of the day, all I heard when I saw those bans was "Proxy anything over like, 5 dollars". Because it's "just cardboard" and "not an investment". They're absolutely right, l8r sealed product, to the printers I go.
@@toedrag-release my friend doesnt use sol ring in any of his family's decks and I rarely put it into any new decks i make (exception being a cycling deck helmed by sharuum cause it pays for cycle soo neatly) and i've been really enjoying making decks with a precon budget restriction of around €40 and my other friends are getting into it too. it's very satisfying watching them pop off against "normal" decks and win the occasional game
@@fairygoodmuller8065I don’t run it in most of decks for various reasons mostly specific to those decks. But if a decks engine used generic mana for fuel, say for cycling or X spells or activated abilities, I’d keep it in. But Animar makes creatures cost less colorless so there’s less reason to use it. Isn’t it fun to appreciate it more instead of just considering it an auto include?
I think the "WotC designing only for commander in mind" problem will only get worse now, I mean it already feels like as a limited player that in every set there are now multiple cards that are dead in draft but only there as chase card for commander players, especially at high rarity.
I've noticed this in a bunch of sets too. It's why my Bloomburrow video basically focused on it. And I think you're right in that it will only get worse
Especially with these brackets they're looking to implement. Now we're probably going to see some cards that design-wise are biased towards certain brackets, but they're going to start being pushed even just within those brackets. Like, here's card X, it's allowed in brackets 2 to 4; now here's card Y, it's like card X but way better and will still be allowed in bracket 2 even though it should likely be relegated strictly to brackets 3 and 4.
I wouldn’t describe Traveler’s Amulet as ramp, but I like your point about its artwork fitting different planes and I’d say that Wayfarer’s Bauble can be championed more!
WotC dipping their toe into EDH was dooming since day one. The early precons normalizing sol ring and selling mainly off exclusive printings of legacy-strength cards was a slippery slope towards Commander being just another (eventually the biggest) money cow for Wizards.
WoTC taking control of commander is one of, if not the worst thing that could happen to the format, but we have to remember that they can only do that if we let them do it, I mean the only reason the RC worked was because of community support, if other people just decide to make a new RC they could if the community supports them, there's a lot of creators that could occup this space, the problem is whos is gonna want to do that after what just happend? These death threats where horrible and I belive a by product of wizards appealing to "investors", this game always had a culture of people treating it like an investiment, and being completely honest if you think a card game is an investiment your out of your mind, honestly it dosen't suprise me these people acted like that, some people really need to gtfu
I'm working on a follow up to this video right now and am also expressing my concerns about what WotC will be like as stewards of the format. I think you're right, and that we don't need them, but I also think you're right in that no one else will want the job. There are some rough times ahead
I don't think a new RC will work. Existing players will struggle to accept anyone else deciding which cards are banned; the ex-RC only managed because it's been there for so long and it's something you accepted getting into the format. In its absence, WOTC's banlists will become the default because even if everyone hates their choices, they'll be the only ones that everyone acknowledges have authority. Plus, a lot of people play commander partially or wholly at sanctioned stores, which will mostly use whatever banlist WOTC creates.
@@yurisei6732 That's really dependent on the community, if people see commander as a community format tham they will play with whatever rules are more fun, lots of people play with banned cards or proxys for example just because their play group is okay with it, the RC just gave guide lines for people to follow, and if the community just decides that it wants to play a certain way then they will play it that way, the power of the RC as guides came from the respect of the player base, and WoTC loses this respect on a daily basis, so I do belive is possible, but I don't think anyone is gonna want to do it
So I saw the title and initially I thought I'd disagree about potentially banning Sol Ring, but I resonate so much with being essentially forced to play it over potentially worse cards that are more fun to use. You're also spot on with the bannings - It's all WotC's fault with their stingy reprint policy and hunger for money that led to the cards skyrocketing in price
Yeah, it's a strong statement I've made here. I just hope everyone actually listens to the video like you have because I don't feel I've been unreasonable. Thank you for the comment
Also consider the following as well, if Wizards unbanned the hits from the September 2024 ban hammer, not only will it embolden those who sent the death threats to do it more often, but it’ll also hit wizard’s already tainted reputation more and the player base will plummet on mass. But that’s just my guess on the fallout if Wizards were to unban the following cards.
WotC unbanning those cards would feel like the nail in the coffin of reasonable discourse over bans. The harrassers are likely already high on the ego they got just from causing the RC to disband, I can't imagine what they'd get up to if they felt 100% justified.
I would agree if the RC unbanned them. But WotC can easily take this opportunity to say "we've taken some time to let the dust settle and we're going to start fresh" then release whatever list they want. I imagine that's what most people expect to happen. Keeping certain cards banned to stick it to the smallest number of bad actors is silly. WotC even told the RC banning like that was a mistake.
@@king.eternal5980 It's not about "Sticking it" to them, it's about showing them that they can't harass people and get their way for it. It would risk setting an awful precedent to do otherwise.
My favorite Sol Ring alt art is from the Sheldon’s spell book because its flavor text was just perfect for me the way it altered the text of the St. Crispin’s day speech. I think you’re right with the alt art as a way to at least somewhat address the homogeneity.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Foundations does. I wish it well honestly because I think we need some intro friendly starter stuff. I miss precon decks that aren't just for commander
there are many things most people need - patience - better investment skills - nerves - crab cards - more crab cards - even more crab cards - a crab only format... look what i wanna say is people need to learn how to chill, things aren't looking to good right now and that we need more crabs. i wanna make a crab deck so badly and the crabdate reminded me of why i want a crab deck also i agree with the amulett stand point. sol ring would be a bit nicer if it at least looked differently
Sol Ring being dropped on turn 1 isn't as bad as a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus, and it's not as bad on turn 2-3 as dockside. It's also not nearly as bad as dropping sol ring _and_ those other cards. In my own games, sol ring didn't run it out so far ahead that no one could catch up to the person who played it and those people trying to use the 'slower mana rocks' are just outpaced by people using other fast mana sources that don't include sol ring. Don't get me wrong, I fully believe there needs to be a larger ban list. I also believe that we need to shift Rule 0 from 3 people being aware of, and convincing someone from playing a specific card to one person trying to convince 3 other people to let them play a card. Where they have to lay out on the table their jank to get permission to play it instead of asking forgiveness after they janked their way to a win.
I could argue Sol ring is just as strong as crypt, but the real difference is that Sol ring is in 99% of decks. Crypt is in 10% of EDHREC decks, which includes theory crafted decks, dream decks, etc, AND is the smallest subset of the community because the most casual players don't post their decks online. The chances that you run into a crypt on turn 1 and they run away with the game is easily under 1%. Edit: banning JLo is as silly as it being printed in the first place. Neither should have happened. Never once saw that card make a difference in a game that wasn't HIGHLY competitive.
Wizards definitely wasn't stopping themselves from banning Nadu in Modern, given that it's banned. But I do advise you read the ban article for it! They tried to do The Skullclamp Article for the modern day, and unintentionally just made the most comedic thing possible, because the easiest takeaway from it was "no one designing the set had heard of a two-decades-running Legacy deck that is still rogue tier.
Joke's on you, Rules Committee. These bannings don't phase my Estrid Stax Enchantress deck which has won a few cedh tournaments at my LGS and didn't play any of these cards nor Sol Ring. Touching on the different arts for Sol Ring, we have gotten a few from Secret Lairs as well like the Black is Magic, Space theme and Hatsune Miku lairs. The concerns of WotC taking over the Commander format is very valid. Commander is very different in comparison to the other formats. We have no idea of how many people play commander let alone cedh. And there's no solid data on what this player base would like for the format since there are so many opinions on the commander format. At least with competitive formats we have more solid data based on tournament results to determine what cards to ban and possibly unban.
True, but Secret Lairs not a good avenue for reprints honestly. Especially with the recent changes. Also, excellent to hear about your deck! That's exactly the sort of thing I think the format needs!
as a casual player, my only issue with mana crypt/jeweled lotus was always cost to entry. the fact that so many popular figures/youtubers/content creators all had the pricy mana cards really lead to a feeling of FOMO for someone who didnt feel like dropping more than 7$ on a single card. i could see the FOMO being a lot worse for someone more ingrained into the community. if they simply printed mana crypt as much as sol ring, i could see that card having a similar legacy as for sol ring being everywhere.. i feel like its a non-issue? like sure, a lot of my friends have it, but it never really leads to that big of an issue in the long run. maybe its a competitive-only thing.
It's a lot of factors honestly, and everyone's opinion will be different. For instance I'm not a fan regardless of price (hence #BanSolRing for a video even though that's cheap). I think the reason they were banned though, was because the games where the cards made an appearance lead to one player steam rolling the rest and that's not great fun even for casual players. WotC could battle this by printing even more busted cards, but then we get into the issue of every deck starting to look the same. Which is why they said they made cards like Jeweled lotus rare to begin with. Very tricky situation all round
I don't use Sol Ring in any of my decks because its much more fun to find clever or on-theme ways to ramp... Also just pointing out, Traveler's Amulet isn't ramp... :^) Now if all the Traveler's Amulets were replaced with Wayfarer's Bauble we'd be talkin! But WotC HAS been printing lots of slower and cooler than Sol Ring 3 cost rocks with unique effects: Patchwork Banner, Misleading Signpost, Cursed Mirror, Progenitor's Icon... uhh Staff of Compleation and a bunch more... and there's a lot of old ones, Phyrexian Totem feels like abuse in my Shirei deck. xD I think they should get rid of The List, Showcase, and Secret Lair... and Special Guests should be 30 on-theme-full-art reprints with a better pull rate. Like 1 in 12 packs. (Or the Special Guests could be the Showcase cards.) But I also think each set should only have 1 commander precon, something that really captures the set as a whole... Bumbleflower going all-out as a Gift deck as the only Bloomburrow precon would have been perfect, the other set abilities are very niche and derivative.
Technically "Traveler's Amulet" is not ramp! It puts the land in your hand and not into play, so you can't get above the curve with it (without further effects). But yeah, ban Sol Ring and fix Standard, WotC!
Thinking about it. Investors sellin their cards in fear of losing money to lower prices seems like heaven for me. On the other hand. I proxy 90 percent of my decks so i dont realy care :D Hasbro may own the rules, but my printer owns the paper :D
Being a veteran magic player, the world around art has been a wild ride. As I am sure you know, Fallen Empires tried to have different art for the same cards, and people HATED it. There was an idea that the art of a card was part of its identity. Over time, with core set reprints and reprints in other blocks, people began to warm up to alternate art, and it has become a mainstay of the game. I agree that having optional arts to choose from help players customize their decks and is a good thing. Even the basic lands.
I have personally started to lean more into Conquest over Commander, partially due to the longer ban list, partially due to the faster games, even with how much less fast mana is allowed in the format.
From a financial perspective, these bans were always just a matter of making the assets momentarily less liquid. Because it was obvious from the announcement that something cEDH would break off: none of the cards are an issue there. So soon as that format coalesced, the prices would recover - especially given that WOTC would be more hesitant to include them in future products if they're banned. That particular aspect did change with the brackets idea, but they would still obviously recover. The brackets system they've suggested so far doesn't seem, to me, like a step in the wrong direction. Standard's issues have stemmed from godawful card design and play design working in tandem, whereas Modern's issues were predated in commander, with product printed directly to it. With the format so large and so uniquely vulnerable to pubstomping because everything was ill-defined handwaving of "oh, your group will figure it out, nuts to you if you want to play pickup though," something like this was inevitably going to be lurched towards.
I'm working on a follow up to this video that's all about the bracket system. And I agree, it's not a step in the wrong direction but (to me at least) seems to be a step in no direction. I also agree that the issue has always been power creep and scarcity, and sadly those are things I don't think that will be fixed under WotC
I think for play groups, it's effectively a step in no direction - though the upswing of their 'officially' undoing certain bans may help there. For pickup games, offering a central hub of ideas about what the various philosophies of play are and what types of cards populate those various philosophies is a real improvement. Under the current rules and guidelines, all four of the banned cards were perfectly fine in a deck I'd call a '6,' because there was no agreed-upon 1-10 scale that players could reference. And "Bracket 1" sounds better than "I'm a 4," a description no-one would ever give their deck.
I have to say I kinda agree with the bannings. The most frustrating thing about playing in a pod is someone playing these cards and deny that their deck is a power 7 or higher only to combo off soo hard no one has a chance to respond. Even if I lose, I want to at least play the game. Someone speedballing past midrange past the early game setup takes that chance away.
i have a version of sol ring that i think was for pride or something. really liked the art and flavor text: "the relic has been kept in a place of power, of community, of friendship---distilling magic from the light of love." got it off ebay. it really stands out
I’m so glad you were clear about harassment being wrong, thank you. Other commentary on this has kinda fallen short in addressing how terrible harassment is. All this has kinda changed the way I see mtg a lil, and I’m still processing it tbh. On a lighter note, I maybe disagree with the idea of a sol ring ban. Cos it’d invalidate every boxed Commander deck and that’s such faff for everyone. (Even if precons are exempt, the deck checks would be a misery) But otherwise I largely agree with what you’ve said here, and I’m really glad of that
I dare to say that if they had banned sol ring, (people would still complain, don't get me wrong) the reaction wouldn't be this extreme because at least it would show some consistency from the RC. The fact that they chose to keep Sol Ring just made people that much more suspicious that the RC has its hands tied to WoTC, and that is infuriating.
@@RedBobcatGames That would probably lead to some people unironically playing the Dockside extortionist pre-con with Dockside just to "stick it to the man"
The problem with the Sol Ring ban is that it would render the absolutely ONLY affordable event chain to a lot of people, Commander Party, unable to be olayed. Playing with precon decks for $6 entry fee, or 25 PLN which is a price lower than your typical one person meal in Poland -- while Prerelease or even Draft events are already more expensive than 120 PLN and this is money not everyone can just throw weekly. Due to the ban of the Dockyard Extortionist, one precon is already illegal during the event.
You're not wrong. I think maybe they could say all precons are legal as long as they remain unedited. But as for everyone else, my thinking is if the other 4 need to go then Sol Ring should have gone for the same reason
I actually look for alternate arts for my sol rings and command towers, and basically any cards that I have in multiple decks... all of my basic lands are different...
I find this to be a complex issue within magic. Commander being run by wotc is a horrible turn of events and will lead to broken, format warping cards being the norm. On the other hand I also believe that the less bans the better for commander because the card pool is far to big to ever make "fair" and wizards will print new cards to take the place of the banned ones. Id rather see time put into power level brackets or a elo system like chess. Each card is worth x points and you add em togther to get a power estimate. Can't lie about power when everyone knows the exact power upfront.
I've seen so a lot of people talking about how mtg card's should start increasing their price lie pokemon cards and I don't know why wotc hasn't seemed to pick up on it.
Came for the breaking news, stayed for the 🦀 dating. Also, its so sad the fallout from all this especially considering commanders origin as a for fun casual format between tournament games.
Look I had a crypt and lotus in a deck along with vault and tomb...and I have to admit that lotus and crypt banning is for the better of the format. the issue is these cards were seeping into more and more casual games and it seems like SOME people dont have the social awareness when to pull out "that deck". Commander has a certain kind of etiquette where we all try to match the power level at the table that's why the 1-10 scale was attempted and why now were getting a 1-4 bracket system. To many people pulling slapping a lotus and or crypt against people playing at a precon level and that's never fun for new comers or casual players. The bans could have been done better but again it's for the better of the format, and if were being honest lotus never should have been banned and crypt should have been banned years ago. And if you have these cards and want to play them you can always rule 0 them in.
As someone who is typically pretty lazy about building new decks, but likes having the variety of playing multiple decks, banning sol ring would be incredibly annoying because that means every single precon that is printed I would then have to dig through, find the ring, pull it out of the deck, throw it away and find something to replace it. The whole point of the precons is the convenience of having a playable deck out of the box. I know, casual format, rule zero, whatever, but some people don't like letting you play with banned cards regardless of any of that and it just adds extra friction with getting new players into the game through those decks. I sure wouldn't have liked getting into it by immediately being told my deck isn't legal despite just opening it.
I joke with friends and the occasional new player at the LGS that commander is a 97 card format because you start with command tower sol ring and arcane signet and then choose your commander
1:42? The carcination of the comments section? Count me in! High Pincher! Yes, Sol Ring is good I. Artifact deck that could gain for the mana cost reduction and subsequent storm count. Like, my "Gnostro" Deck. Or a clone deck based all around artifacts. You can see: it's flavourful!. I wouldn't add Some Ring in my others 7 decks. Just for example. Also yes, I'm not willing to use some cards because they are power crept out.
"Carcination of the comments section" made me laugh! And yeah I think if Sol Rings weren't as frequent I wouldn't have as much of an issue with them honestly
I have magic investors friends and none of them are upset about the prices at all. In fact, most of them made massive profits from all of this. The people hurt financially are the ones that bought these to play them and that sunk cost is now not even worth a game piece.
Sold my pulled Jeweled Lotus to a friend, about a month before the ban. Luckily for him, I sold it to him for 50 bucks. Edit: I also recently built a Rakdos deck out of purely bulk. Zero staples. No signets, no mox, no sol ring, no Commander Tower. Just good ole shitty Magic. And it SPANKS.
Which version would you prefer? Or would you want new art? Because honestly part of me thinks precons set on certain planes should all be either cards from that plane originally or featuring new art
It's valid to be annoyed that the bans happened so late that people wasted money on an expensive card, but its not valid to expect people to not ban cards because of their financial value. MTG is a game, the banlist exists to protect the fun of the game not investments.
If you explained to people that Sol Ring is akin to the never ending process in which a person has to continually "upgrade their decks" to "keep up with the Meta" they would laugh at you can say, "But Sol RIng is Casual" But when you say that would Dockside and Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt, they would cope and seethe because they just don't have access to such cards, and are too prideful or embarrassed to make Proxies. Like fellas, open your eyes. If EDH is casual, we shouldn't care, but we all suddenly did care.
The RC did this to themselves even if the people who did death threats are POS. From what iv seen they went behind too many back to make this huge ban, they knee it was huge, and they knew that people had money into collection, player, investor or otherwise, It looks very bad and very suspect. This isn't just a communities fault the RC is not absolve of blame nore is Wotc but wotc being a huge issues themselves is obvious.
My group just orders proxies now and we have no ban list, play power 9 and its so much fun Edit the casuals need sol ring to keep up with the players who have other fast mana, not ramp, fast mana
I was playing a pre-con the other day and had Sol Ring sitting in my hand for several turns until I played it when I need addition mana. I add command tower in all my decks as I like the art work of my command tower and Arcane Signet is saved for Commanders with 3 colors as I might need mana fixing. I also have several removal cards in everysingle deck these days with Sol Ring's name on it.
@@RedBobcatGames I also figured there is a card called Cast into The Fire that can exile an artifact for red and a colorless mana at instant speed, perfect for that damned One Ring.
Sure, but those variants mostly aren't Universes Within and are mostly from precons or secret lairs. Like I said I'd like to see them printed in normal packs too so they're more easily available
How about this? The RC and now WotC are creating a tier system that means that no cards have to be outright banned (except ofc the ones banned everywhere) since powerful or salty cards can be soft banned from lower tiers. You can make Sol Ring tier 2 if you want so you can have somewhere to play where it isn't allowed and I can still play my Mana Crypt in my high power decks. Let people play their cards.
Yeah I mean I don't know if we need ban lists for that though honestly. Mostly that just sounds like Kitchen Table magic for me, and maybe events should have house rules? I'm not sure
I think people overvalue the idea of even 10 cards in a commander deck being homogenous amongst colours. It's a singleton format. It's not that big of a deal.
I do think Sol Ring being around might be a good thing. I don't play Commander, but it seems to me that having an explosive start from time to time is a good thing for a casual format, as long as it doesn't happen too often; therefore you may want to have one "best" card in the format so that from time to time you get to start a game overpowered - but not too often
I'll have you know, I've been running Mark Tedin's Sol Ring art since my first EDH deck! :P But good point there, as somehow even my 4th Edition Sol Rings seem special in most pods I've been in recent years. I'm always torn on the premise of Sol Ring in the 99... because it feels good to have, it's generally easy to reach early-game if not in the opener, it offsets more cost-heavy cards making them more reasonable to play and makes having your commander deleted feel less bad. But at the same time, it always feels like an auto-include, which is a -1 to more creative choices. It's the same reason a lot of players avoid and cut basic lands, even if we still have the option of finding really nice and thematic artworks to fit our decks. The concept of official bans in this casual format is an odd one to me. When I first entered the format around 2010, the banned cards were things that could abruptly and unfairly end games like Biorhythm, things that overextended the games like Upheaval (somehow Shahrazad was overlooked at the time), and cost-prohibitive cards like the Power 9. I played a lot during the time that Primeval Titan was legal, and I found him equally fun to play with and against-- the ability to use an opponent's Primeval Titan from their library or graveyard was as much a staple in my playgroups as the titan himself. After Primeval Titan was banned, even though my playgroups almost exclusively played commander with each other, we all abandoned our beloved titan to conform with the rules. As the banlist adds more cards, I feel like it's more and more of a "Rule 0" discussion. Some cards are just plain unhealthy, and that's why they're banned. Some cards are fun and, in the right pod, not an unfair card in the pool. I like using Sol Ring, but I find more and more players who dislike it, and even have pride for not running it in their decks. I'd be more than happy to swap out my flaming ring for something else in a pod, just as I'd personally allow players to use stuff like Primeval Titan in our casual game. I've always been very pro-proxy (and it really helps with the individuality of decks), so it really comes down to the kind of game that everyone wants to play. Discussion is the most important part when it comes to commander, as it's intended to be a casual, social format. I never saw winning as the primary objective in a game of commander, but moreso "how many cool things can we get to happen."
I suspect given what's happened we'll see more people leaning towards just doing their own thing at the table anyway. If honestly I'm in favour of. But then, I am one of those types that likes running the basics because of all the different "on theme" lands I can include
I'd argue for Wayfarer's Bauble over Traveler's Amulet, since Bauble actually ramps. Obviously one is a riff of the other I dunno which) since the names are synonyms so it doesn't matter too much
WOTC will ban cards in other formats if a card shows up in too many decks. Tons of decks have Sol Ring and that should be good enough of a criteria to ban it based on other banning precedence.
I have still yet to hear a single argument againsts these bans that doesn't take into account money. I believe price in the secondary market should never EVER be taken into account in the conversation of banning cards. It would be like a fighting game not nerfing a broken character because "it was a DLC character so it would be unfair to the people who bought the extra character"
To be honest, thinking on it I think you're right. I guess I've heard some people say that the cards shouldn't be banned because they don't believe any cards should banned. But outside of that, not really anything
@@RedBobcatGames Yeah, I think there are so many people, including youtube channels all about "finance" and those have really gotten in players' brains. This is a game, first of all it is a game, and if something is bad for the game it shouldn't be there
I would rather not ban sol ring, because the mana building phase is boring and I want to get going faster. And everyone having access to an artifact that gets you a colorless pool to splash around with makes the game faster.
38 decks in total, only 4 run Sol Ring. One is from the earlier days the other 3 are artifact or big mana decks. Almost included it in mine Zevlor "but just the bad single target spells" deck, but decided against it.
I am one of the few that are optimistic for WotC taking in the format and looking to form brackets for cards. This defines the power level of cards and allows casual players to reject the use of them at tables. This also allows the use of almost all cards in some capacity in some level of play. WotC also has the resources to gather, study, and present a bracketed list for all of the cards. Not all communities within Commander need this system, it's moreso for locals and it's presentable as deck building challenge for some people looking to build for certain brackets.
This is actually what my next video is on, because while I'd agree that they could do exactly what you said it seems like they're planning something different. They seemed to suggest they're not going to bracket all the cards, and maybe even none of the cards but instead just use the brackets as more philosophical guidance. I guess we'll have to wait and see
@@RedBobcatGames still very much appealing to hear given complaints about power disparities at tables. Everyone's 7 is different and all that. Framing power of Commander staples would help guide players to understand levels of play cards should be at.
I havent watched the whole video yet, but well done for the "this is not a breaking news channel" disclaimer. I hare clickbaiting and not enough people are honest about their uploads this way. Thanks for that. You immediately get my respect as a "good" content creator (until proven otherwise..lol). 👍
@@RedBobcatGames I cant honestly say I watched it all, Im a "returning player" of sorts just aiming to get back in at Foundations, but Ive watched way too many videos on the topic this week. That being said I agree with your assessments on the banning and sol ring, in theory, i also dont have enough info of whats gone on in the last 8 years of MTG to really know whats good or bad yet, oh and you did a great job with the narration and editing, excellent content. 👍
They greatest success of WotC is convincing players that a fake, casual format, created by a bunch of nerds in their basement, needs to be moderated and have specific rules. And instead of giving them the finger for trying to control kitchen table Magic, players agreed and gave them their money and even made groups and sites like the Command Zone and EDHREC that did more harm than good for card prices and the overall health of the game.
@@RedBobcatGames it's no wonder that a good chunk of the player base migrated towards the truly eternal formats of Old-School and Premodern. At least there they know that there is no way that WotC can intervene with the rules and card lists. Personally, I've abandoned Commander in favor of low to mid power 60-card theme decks for kitchen table play. They are way cheaper and much more enjoyable because it's 1vs1, everything goes games.
I cannot fathom WoTC would handle Commander's banlist and balancing anywhere near as well as the RC used to. Granted they weren't always on point with their bannings, but I do not see WoTC having any control over what they do and don't ban. They could very easily unban those four cards and we'd be right back where we started, if not worse. New and arguably more powerful cards could be forced into the format, without anyone being able to stop them. I could see it following other cardgames where WoTC refuses to ban powerful cards for the reason of keeping their prices artificially high. What's a game to them, than just an engine to print infinite money? I don't see commander tower, arcane signet or sol ring as problems because of the very same reasons you mentioned before but for a different reason. They are cheap, accessible, and every commander player has access to them. Or at least to a point where they aren't paying more than a handful of dollars to acquire them. Cheap staples are always better for the game than having expensive auto-include staples. Yes they homogenize the game as well, but having those cards be so much more available and affordable than Mana Crypt or Dockside Extortionist says so much.
2:45 I have another perspective on this statement that the people who are angry at these bans and behaving badly should be directing their anger toward WotC for creating the predatory market conditions in the first place. Most of the people who made those threats are in favour of WotC cultivating this market and pushing cards meant to grow to over €100 in value. They can never be convinced that such market conditions are bad, they want secure assets which will accrue value and they’re only angry that the RC interfered with their asset security for the purpose of healthy gameplay. There is no one else they can direct their anger toward. Not that they should, I know you didn’t mean that they should harass WotC instead of the RC. These are just bad people who want to participate in card market speculation and investment. I suspect that if WotC now unbans Crypt and Lotus, there won’t be death treats from the people who did agree with the the RC decision because people who agreed had no financial investment and their concern was game experience, or altruism. Death threats are far more likely to come from people motivated by financial self interest. WotC would likely act in future to minimise backlash from the people who are more likely to make threats and the game would suffer.
A deck that has mana crypt and sol ring assuming everything else is the same is objectively more powerful then a deck with just sol ring, assuming again that everything else is equal. The RC didn't like talking about it, but price and availability matter when discussing power. Is sol ring to strong? yes, but its fun sometimes to have it in your opening hand.
personally i dont think sol ring should be banned because it would put just about every starter deck out of comission and starter decks for non rotating formats should always be legal out of the box unless there was a rule that unmodified precons dont have to worry about ban lists
I agree that each card should have been banned But I also agree that the RC maybe should have decided that the non-unanimous decisions could wait until their next quarterly meeting If they had just banned Dockside & Nadu I think everyone would have been fine The mana rocks basically tripled the amount monetarily that players lost from this announcement - if they had done the mana rocks in a separate announcement I think it probably would have given the market time to adjust to those first bans We'll never know what might have happened if the RC had done this, but that's personally one way I think the RC could have mitigated the fallout of these decisions
I agree, a warning about banning the other two would have been nice and maybe saved a lot of pain in the process. It's a real shame the way it all played out
Sol Ring should be banned, but the hardest part is that all precons would contain an illegal card, and that's not friendly to new players who are getting into the format. I think that WotC should provide a replacement card somehow whether it be through the LGS that sells it, or they just mail you a card.
We had that before with precons. As long as the precon is played unchanged, all cards in it are considered legal. But sure, that won't fix the confusion for new players, that they will have to replace the banned card when changing the deck.
I want standard to be fun so badly. I came back to magic from yugioh specifically because I wanted a rotating format but standard doesnt get much support where I live so I'm stuck playing on arena where the meta is so bland.
Literally the only reason I started commander was how bland 60 card formats were getting. Maybe look into doing cubes, then you can "rotate" whenever you feel like it, or look into adding something like Planechase to your games for a little bit of extra spice.
@@PhoenicopterusR60 card formats are mostly played for competitive purpose so naturally you will run into the same decks when meta is created. When you play 60 card format with friends it is as fun as commander because you don't need to netdeck and just have fun at brewing. Competitively though pauper appears to be the most interesting one since WOTC destroyed modern with MH3 and LotR sets. Pioneer seems not to take off. Standard - I have no knowledge on this one since I am not interested in a rotating format. Meanwhile pauper has valid combo decks, storm deck, tempo, aggro, walls, burn, affinity, goblins, elves, control faeries. Every week meta at my LGS is different. Affinity is the most common one obviously but not dominating.
@@vaazon My issue is that, despite early on playing exclusively 60-card with friends, the games felt samey after seeing the same deck 2 or 3 times and I wasn't looking to build a new deck every weekend just to keep things interesting. For me personally, Planechase made it bearable and commander kept things more varied for longer. I understand that's the nature of 60-card and I don't dislike it entirely, I just don't enjoy it for too many games. I definitely forgot about Pauper, which I have heard many good things about. There's also some smaller alternative formats like Oathbreaker (maybe?) that fit the commander deck building but the speed of 60-card formats.
@vaazon I'm definitely thinking about picking up Pauper. It seems to have most of what I want from a 60-card format, and I can finally make it out to pauper night at my LGS.
I'm not massively up on standard at the moment, but was under the impression it wasn't doing great. I've been surprised by how many comments I've gotted from people saying they're really enjoy it
Disagree: Yes, when playing with randoms there is a likelihood of running into high-power decks, but that's why you ask what everyone's playing beforehand if it truly matters to you. However, when you are playing with the same group of people [haha just rule 0 loser x3] then you know exactly what your play group is doing and the power relatively speaking. The banlist should be removed and rebuilt fully, if not permanently removed and replaced by like 5 'Warning' cards as a true signpost. I rather have no bans and be pushed further to ask if people are running toxic stuff than have power reduced across the board. Nadu was the ONLY ban I'm perfectly fine with because his playstyle was toxic due to time management. If price and power are issues then why are cards from the reserved list still unbanned?
WOTCs control over the format might work out the kinks right now and for the short time, but we should be cautious. Its admirable that they still want the community involved in the running of the format, but Commander is Magic's cash cow right now. Its not too difficult to see that the company might bring down a mandate that will affect the format, without real input from the community. I mean, they released a Modern Horizon set and made commander precons as a supplementary product instead of Modern precons 😅 They are very commander-happy right now. And now they control it.
We should all just adopt yyyy-mm-dd format. But to be more serious, I've been saying this since it happened. People complaining know black lotus is busted. I know they know. I also know they know jeweled lotus is just black lotus but commander. You know these cards are busted. Stop complaining.
Probably a hot take...Maybe precons need a little fun bump with Sol Ring in them. So with the new tier system, make Sol Ring allowed in only precon level of play. Ban Sol Ring in the higher power tier levels. This is coming from someone who plays and collects all the precons with no modifications. My favorite way to play magic has always been with the precons all the way back to my first one...The Spikes from Stronghold.
But, I feel on the otherhand there's a suggestion here that the precons aren't fun without them. And if that's the case, couldn't we just make better precons?
@@RedBobcatGames I learned from watching the Distraction Makers (game designers) channel that part of what makes a format casual is having higher variance and less consistency. Example, an amateur like me could never beat a grand champion at chess since their is no variance, meaning chess is all skill. However, in magic because of variance, you can still expect to sometimes beat a pro player. So keeping this single high power card (Sol Ring) that allows for an extra exciting start within precon level is a good thing imo. Its iconic and fun. And since its the only one in the precon level, then it can't be consistent and retains high variance and so is therefore very casual by nature. When someone does get an opening hand Sol Ring when playing casual precons we are usually excited for them. And when its you, its like wining the opening hand lottery lol.
remember rule 0. I don't care about what a bunch of beurocrats on the other side of the planet have to say about the game I'm playing. Sure, official events are barred to this type of play-style, but I'm playing with my friends.
It's honestly very hard for me to hold any sympathy for the players that treated this game like a stock market exchange and who many went on to harass and threaten people over it.
I think this happened in part because under the hood, commander is fundamentally bad. Now, obviously the cards shouldn't have been printed, this wasn't the right way to address that problem, and the overreaction to that mismanagement was awful, but I think it got this bad because the format's dysfunctional on a conceptual level. You have a 100 card singleton deck, but that extra variance is balanced by always having access to your commander. But just in case, here's a free mulligan. And a draw on the first turn. And completely ubiquitous fixing. And every tutor in the game is legal except for Golos, Primeval Titan, and Tinker. Is it meant to be extra-consistent, or extra-varied? Speaking of those cards that aren't banned, part of the reason for that is the ban list is apparently only intended as an example of the kind of things that we shouldn't play, not a functional ban list at all. Unfortunately, there's no clear and consistent logic on display. If there was, it would still be easier to remember a longer list than it is to read, internalize, extrapolate, and reach a group consensus from the explanations of why each individual card was banned, but we can't even do that, because Thassa's Oracle is legal, Coalition Victory isn't, and the very first card on the list, Ancestral Recall, tells you that they only banned it for optics as if it wasn't arguably the strongest card ever printed. So people are left to treat the banned list as a banned list after all, except no they're not, because if you do that you end up with the opposite of all the goals laid out in the "philosophy of commander" article and the reasons most people play it in the first place: CEDH, a style of play so different that it's arguably a second format. That leaves us with an accessible, casual format with about the same card pool as Legacy, so you can buy more wins until your friend group falls out. This is referred to as "self regulating" and its frequently cited as a reason cards are actually fine. After all, they can't ruin the game if they already did and nobody wants to play. But we shouldn't worry about buying wins, because it's a social format! That's why interacting too much with other players is sternly discouraged, the cards everybody's' decks are built around just come back anyway so it's a bit pointless to try, there's no reward for being the one to move the game forward, there's kingmaking, there's player elimination (losing your commander would feel bad, but straight up dying is fine), and, as mentioned above, there's mismatched power levels only kept in check by disapproval. You know, social things. With your friends. We want long games where we can play pet cards and overcosted jank, so there's 40 life. But we're eliminating people, so it looks like somebody's going to have sit out for a long time playing nothing at all. But maybe not! 3 opponents with double life only means "long game" if everyone's politely trying to pretend that it does. 40 life with low interaction means ramp, combo, and stax are the only valid strategies. The first circumvents the life barrier, the second quickly overcomes it, and the third is mostly disallowed by community consensus and should probably lead to early concessions anyway, so in practice the very thing slowing commander down is speeding it up. The format is a bottomless well of paradoxes that players are asked to figure out in a "pre game conversation". I've heard people talk as if disliking this idea is somehow immature or anti-social, but you know what? I think I want my pre-game conversations to be about anything other than all the things I don't want my friends to do, or figuring out if we're even trying to play the same game. I like talking with people. I don't like needing to talk about that. If people want to customize commander to suit their group, wonderful. They shouldn't have to finish making it, though. That defeats the point in a format. As it is, we don't even have that: I think commander is not only supplied incomplete, it's impossible to complete. The widely accepted rules provided to us have irresolvable conflicts baked into them. None of this is to say that it's not fun, but put me in a room with three people I already get along with and we'll have fun with an empty bag of crisps, so what's even the point?
I think I basically agree with everything you said. And that's why, to me it felt more like these bans were for WotC than the players. The RC said they wanted to send a message, I believe to WotC letting them know to cool it on the power creep, but it had knock on effects to the player base and here we are
There will always be new player created formats, and for better or worse, WOTC will create cards that sell to those formats... Gifting in Bloomburrow seems like a great mechanic that benefits multiplayer, and it's not the first. Calling out "commander" in the Assassin's Creed set seemed to me like too much... but I'm curious how much of the future decisions WOTC makes will be based on the success of Arena, where every mythic rare has effectively the same cost, so it's a great onramp for new players... and Brawl is similar to Commander, but it's not multiplayer. I suspect new players will often durdle around on Arena, then pick up a Commander pre-con, and then what? Buy some chase rares that they realize they don't need, or learn to draft better, or stay on Arena and drop Commander? My personal frustration is starter products that sell out when they contain one or two chase rares. The optimist in me says WOTC has done a great job with Standard, and they need to fix their other formats. Biggest change coming up for new player will probably be Foundations, though.
Could we make a pre-modern version of Commander. Need to pick a set and allow card before that era. But i do love Artisan Commander, but I want to ban the Sol Ring and Thran Dynamo since they are basically stupid ramp. With the uncommon rarity, some of the brokeness power creep is taimed.
People confused the word investment with paying for a card for your decks as an investment in your decks. If you are investing in magic cards for financial purposes. You probably made money despite the bans. If you aren't doing it for money and bought some of these cards to play. You lost money. The dismissal of those people isn't fair either. I don't care that I lost money. Having said that. Most agree the way this was handled was flawed at best and wizards having the opportunity to talk the RC out of it but the CAG and the players didn't. This is the issue that most players are upset about. You can dismiss them too but you don't represent everyone. This isn't a direct reply to the video. More so the comments here. The RC deserves respect but they got it wrong. The threats just took everything to a level no one wants.
Yeah I was gonna say, I don't feel like I dismissed anyones point of view here. And I agree with what you said actually. I think they were right to ban cards if they thought it was best for the game, but the way they went about it was wrong. Sadly, it's all academic now. Lets just hope things aren't for the worse
@@RedBobcatGames No, your video wasn't unfair in any way. I don't agree with everything you said but that doesn't mean I can't talk to you. Cordially, but I look at your comments and one of the top ones were about people investing. I'm not sure people totally understand how the economy of magic really works. The investors that people actually don't like stay away from singles unless they are reserve list. There aren't that many people who were buying up manacrypts because they were going up in price. They pretty much stabilized at 190 for the longest time and the ones that really lost money were the players and the LGS stores. So whoever is making this claim that somebody was buying up manacrypts and sitting on them doesn't have a clue and I don't mean that rudely. But even the speculator market is tiny compared to how many people actually played with those cards saved up to buy one and even bought sealed products recently to get them. If somebody can show me that there were speculators on these banned cards, I would sure like to see that evidence because I can tell you right now being in a family that owns a local game store. No one and I mean no one who seriously invests in magic for financial purposes is touching modern singles like mana crypt except game stores. It's sealed and reserved list. This idea that if you care about the value of your cards going down you are a bad investor is not only unfair it shows a complete misunderstanding of magic and why it's still here today.
0:25 that time frame is also about the time frame between set releases these days.
Wayyooo, very good!
#MakeEDHJankAgain
#MakeEDHJankAgain 100%!
I was thinking about how great it would be if we made a pre-2016 Commander format. Or maybe a pre-2019/pre-border change format.
Called it the Cloud format for the old men who yell at clouds.
@@ryanhefner2011
I think we need like a tier 0/tier -1
Something where the recent jank pieces can be used. Would help let new players use their jank as well.
I’ve been saying it since the RC disbanded: WotC taking control is bad for magic the gathering. Not just for commander, but for the whole game. Power creep will go up in every format, cards will get even more expensive, and I wish the RC was still around fighting for the players. But I don’t blame the RC at all, this is on the assholes who sent death threats and doxxed them. It’s just a bad situation all around, worst of all for the RC.
Completely agree. I'm currently working on a video for next week about basically what WotC will be like now they have commander
I can't really see commander being all that fun to play anymore. I was looking forward to playing more commander with these bans. But now that WotC is in control, every decent deck will be so expensive that it's not fun.
You don't have to play the cards you don't like....easy. Some people like to play more than one or two games an evening. No one knows how wizards will truly run commander. Better than a group with no ties.
@@jonous2001I don't think anyone was suggesting that a group with no ties to the game should take over from the RC were they? Unless you mean that the RC themselves had no ties to the game, which is simply not true.
The biggest argument against this: Power creep has already been happening with Commander when the RC was separated from WotC.
*HOLD IT!!*
Traveler's Amulet is definitively NOT ramp; it is an example of Mana Fixing, as it filters your colors of mana by allowing you to search for the exact basic you need in the moment, but does NOT increase the amount of mana you would normally produce!
That being said, i love your point of making sol rings different for each plane. It's why i love that every set gets its own unique basic land art, including the showcases, because even though lands are such a "yea duh" include, you can still make them Yours.
That's two incredibly good points you've raised. Yeah, I was wrong about the ramp BUT what you said about the land is such a perfect example I wish I'd thought of it to include here. I didn't because I didn't even consider them. There are so many different lands that they don't even trigger that part of my brain that's tired of seeing Sol Ring, and I'm actually interested to see which ones people choose to run. Fantastic observation that illustrates what I was trying to say perfectly. And now I'm annoyed I didn't think of it haha. Thank you
@@RedBobcatGames always a pleasure :>
Well it was very much appriciated!
@@RedBobcatGamesyour opinions about the banning were also wrong as well.
@@robertmendez8383 no they aren't, and the vast majority of players agree.
As a casual magic player, when I first learned of EDH, I loved the idea of taking cards made for 1v1 formats and trying to cook up a 100 card singleton deck that can handle having 3 opponents at once. The moment I learned cards were printed specifically for commander (like jewelled lotus), that enthusiasm waned a bit, but I was reassured by the philosophy of the rules committy and counted on them to at least keep the worst offenders in check. Now that it's all in the hands of the very same people who printed jewelled lotus in the first place... I'm not optimistic about the future.
Me either, and I too am not a fan of cards made for the format. I fear it's all down hill from here
If your main investment is something as unstable as magic cards, you're a bad investor.
This made me laugh more than it probably should have
It's like saying investing in diamonds or cars is bad. Everyone knows that they lose value everyday but people still do it. Someone wanting to invest in magic isn't a bad thing. You're just as bad as the people. Doxing or saying death threats just leave it alone it has nothing to do with you if someone wants to invest in something
Well it is also a matter of use. You can still use gold and diamonds. If They made it so you can no longer use them, they will drop in value and become a collector's item only. And investing in Magic is a risk, just like any other stock. Anyone that invested in the now banned cards, should have known this could happen at any time. Especially with 3 of them that had been on the ban watch list for a long time. If your only means of financial stability were any or all of these cards alone, then I have no sympathy for you. That's just dumb and you deserve it. Hate me if you will, I am not the one who had investment in card board. What if the game just dies one day. You always have to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. But in every investment, you win some, you lose some. Welcome to greed
@@abranlucero7246 It's not the same as investing in diamonds or cars. Cars and diamonds aren't a completely volatile thing that can change value on the whims of bannings or changes in the metagame based on new cars or diamonds being created.
@@abranlucero7246 Also, investing in diamonds is bad... they're useful sometimes because they're the hardest thing we regularly deal with, but that's their only REAL worth. The minute they leave DeBeers' hands they're nearly worthless. Don't buy diamonds, but buy DeBeers stock instead.
Ok now get rid of the fucking reserve list.
There are some really fun includes on there I'd like to see in a new frame
Just buy some of mine, I got heaps. Plenty to go round 🍻
At the end of the day, all I heard when I saw those bans was "Proxy anything over like, 5 dollars". Because it's "just cardboard" and "not an investment". They're absolutely right, l8r sealed product, to the printers I go.
Honestly its ubiquity and cheap price is a point in _favor_ of banning Sol Ring. No one's gonna cry "muh investment" over it, after all.
Honestly the only real argument to keep it is that it's so heavily pushed in every single precon. But like, you can just swap it for a basic land.
Very good points actually. And yeah, I that could be an easy way to fix already printed pre-cons
@@ENCHANTMEN_I stopped putting sol ring in my decks and I dont miss it one bit. Honestly it starts to feel like a waste of a slot after a while.
@@toedrag-release my friend doesnt use sol ring in any of his family's decks and I rarely put it into any new decks i make (exception being a cycling deck helmed by sharuum cause it pays for cycle soo neatly) and i've been really enjoying making decks with a precon budget restriction of around €40 and my other friends are getting into it too. it's very satisfying watching them pop off against "normal" decks and win the occasional game
@@fairygoodmuller8065I don’t run it in most of decks for various reasons mostly specific to those decks. But if a decks engine used generic mana for fuel, say for cycling or X spells or activated abilities, I’d keep it in. But Animar makes creatures cost less colorless so there’s less reason to use it. Isn’t it fun to appreciate it more instead of just considering it an auto include?
I think the "WotC designing only for commander in mind" problem will only get worse now, I mean it already feels like as a limited player that in every set there are now multiple cards that are dead in draft but only there as chase card for commander players, especially at high rarity.
I've noticed this in a bunch of sets too. It's why my Bloomburrow video basically focused on it. And I think you're right in that it will only get worse
Especially with these brackets they're looking to implement. Now we're probably going to see some cards that design-wise are biased towards certain brackets, but they're going to start being pushed even just within those brackets. Like, here's card X, it's allowed in brackets 2 to 4; now here's card Y, it's like card X but way better and will still be allowed in bracket 2 even though it should likely be relegated strictly to brackets 3 and 4.
I wouldn’t describe Traveler’s Amulet as ramp, but I like your point about its artwork fitting different planes and I’d say that Wayfarer’s Bauble can be championed more!
Yeah, you're not wrong. Ramp maybe wasn't the best word, but I guess "Mana related" was a bit of a mouthful
This! More wayfarer's baubles!
Richard Garriot once said, "I don't think any one person would buy a compete box of magic the gathering." This explains the rares.
Well, depends on the price
WotC dipping their toe into EDH was dooming since day one. The early precons normalizing sol ring and selling mainly off exclusive printings of legacy-strength cards was a slippery slope towards Commander being just another (eventually the biggest) money cow for Wizards.
Pretty much, yeah. And now it's all still downhill from here
I read the last announcements as "The RC is resigning, there will not be suitable management of the ban list anymore. Manage it yourself."
I mean, I suspect that's how it's going to shake out
WoTC taking control of commander is one of, if not the worst thing that could happen to the format, but we have to remember that they can only do that if we let them do it, I mean the only reason the RC worked was because of community support, if other people just decide to make a new RC they could if the community supports them, there's a lot of creators that could occup this space, the problem is whos is gonna want to do that after what just happend? These death threats where horrible and I belive a by product of wizards appealing to "investors", this game always had a culture of people treating it like an investiment, and being completely honest if you think a card game is an investiment your out of your mind, honestly it dosen't suprise me these people acted like that, some people really need to gtfu
I'm working on a follow up to this video right now and am also expressing my concerns about what WotC will be like as stewards of the format. I think you're right, and that we don't need them, but I also think you're right in that no one else will want the job. There are some rough times ahead
They ruin everything they touch
I don't think a new RC will work. Existing players will struggle to accept anyone else deciding which cards are banned; the ex-RC only managed because it's been there for so long and it's something you accepted getting into the format. In its absence, WOTC's banlists will become the default because even if everyone hates their choices, they'll be the only ones that everyone acknowledges have authority. Plus, a lot of people play commander partially or wholly at sanctioned stores, which will mostly use whatever banlist WOTC creates.
@robertmendez8383 That's VERY close to the working title of my next video
@@yurisei6732 That's really dependent on the community, if people see commander as a community format tham they will play with whatever rules are more fun, lots of people play with banned cards or proxys for example just because their play group is okay with it, the RC just gave guide lines for people to follow, and if the community just decides that it wants to play a certain way then they will play it that way, the power of the RC as guides came from the respect of the player base, and WoTC loses this respect on a daily basis, so I do belive is possible, but I don't think anyone is gonna want to do it
Reject greed. Embrace the casual.
Didn't come up with the hastag myself, but:
#MakeEDHJankAgain
I've been seeing this and I completely agree #MakeEDHJankAgain
So I saw the title and initially I thought I'd disagree about potentially banning Sol Ring, but I resonate so much with being essentially forced to play it over potentially worse cards that are more fun to use. You're also spot on with the bannings - It's all WotC's fault with their stingy reprint policy and hunger for money that led to the cards skyrocketing in price
Yeah, it's a strong statement I've made here. I just hope everyone actually listens to the video like you have because I don't feel I've been unreasonable. Thank you for the comment
Also consider the following as well, if Wizards unbanned the hits from the September 2024 ban hammer, not only will it embolden those who sent the death threats to do it more often, but it’ll also hit wizard’s already tainted reputation more and the player base will plummet on mass. But that’s just my guess on the fallout if Wizards were to unban the following cards.
I hadn't considered that, but actually yeah you're right. I hope they don't unban them
WotC unbanning those cards would feel like the nail in the coffin of reasonable discourse over bans. The harrassers are likely already high on the ego they got just from causing the RC to disband, I can't imagine what they'd get up to if they felt 100% justified.
I would agree if the RC unbanned them. But WotC can easily take this opportunity to say "we've taken some time to let the dust settle and we're going to start fresh" then release whatever list they want. I imagine that's what most people expect to happen. Keeping certain cards banned to stick it to the smallest number of bad actors is silly. WotC even told the RC banning like that was a mistake.
@@king.eternal5980 It's not about "Sticking it" to them, it's about showing them that they can't harass people and get their way for it. It would risk setting an awful precedent to do otherwise.
They wont unban them; they will print even more scarce and pushed replacements that investors can chase
My favorite Sol Ring alt art is from the Sheldon’s spell book because its flavor text was just perfect for me the way it altered the text of the St. Crispin’s day speech. I think you’re right with the alt art as a way to at least somewhat address the homogeneity.
I doubt I'll ever like the card, but seeing more arts of it would make me dislike it less
and standard is the best its been in years, but everyone is too busy complaining about the format they have an abusive relationship with to notice.
We have a Turn 2 deck in Standard. Standard would be good if we removed some of the RDW cards.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Foundations does. I wish it well honestly because I think we need some intro friendly starter stuff. I miss precon decks that aren't just for commander
there are many things most people need
- patience
- better investment skills
- nerves
- crab cards
- more crab cards
- even more crab cards
- a crab only format...
look what i wanna say is people need to learn how to chill, things aren't looking to good right now and that we need more crabs. i wanna make a crab deck so badly and the crabdate reminded me of why i want a crab deck
also i agree with the amulett stand point. sol ring would be a bit nicer if it at least looked differently
CRAB CRAB CRAB
Sol Ring being dropped on turn 1 isn't as bad as a mana crypt or a jeweled lotus, and it's not as bad on turn 2-3 as dockside. It's also not nearly as bad as dropping sol ring _and_ those other cards.
In my own games, sol ring didn't run it out so far ahead that no one could catch up to the person who played it and those people trying to use the 'slower mana rocks' are just outpaced by people using other fast mana sources that don't include sol ring.
Don't get me wrong, I fully believe there needs to be a larger ban list. I also believe that we need to shift Rule 0 from 3 people being aware of, and convincing someone from playing a specific card to one person trying to convince 3 other people to let them play a card. Where they have to lay out on the table their jank to get permission to play it instead of asking forgiveness after they janked their way to a win.
Yeah, I wonder if this new bracket system will help with that. I'm dubious on what they've revealed about it so far honestly
I could argue Sol ring is just as strong as crypt, but the real difference is that Sol ring is in 99% of decks. Crypt is in 10% of EDHREC decks, which includes theory crafted decks, dream decks, etc, AND is the smallest subset of the community because the most casual players don't post their decks online. The chances that you run into a crypt on turn 1 and they run away with the game is easily under 1%.
Edit: banning JLo is as silly as it being printed in the first place. Neither should have happened. Never once saw that card make a difference in a game that wasn't HIGHLY competitive.
Wizards definitely wasn't stopping themselves from banning Nadu in Modern, given that it's banned. But I do advise you read the ban article for it! They tried to do The Skullclamp Article for the modern day, and unintentionally just made the most comedic thing possible, because the easiest takeaway from it was "no one designing the set had heard of a two-decades-running Legacy deck that is still rogue tier.
Joke's on you, Rules Committee. These bannings don't phase my Estrid Stax Enchantress deck which has won a few cedh tournaments at my LGS and didn't play any of these cards nor Sol Ring. Touching on the different arts for Sol Ring, we have gotten a few from Secret Lairs as well like the Black is Magic, Space theme and Hatsune Miku lairs. The concerns of WotC taking over the Commander format is very valid. Commander is very different in comparison to the other formats. We have no idea of how many people play commander let alone cedh. And there's no solid data on what this player base would like for the format since there are so many opinions on the commander format. At least with competitive formats we have more solid data based on tournament results to determine what cards to ban and possibly unban.
True, but Secret Lairs not a good avenue for reprints honestly. Especially with the recent changes. Also, excellent to hear about your deck! That's exactly the sort of thing I think the format needs!
Casuals will never understand that they don't lose games because any specific cards but because they are just terrible at the game.
@@robertmendez8383You sound like you have no joy.
as a casual player, my only issue with mana crypt/jeweled lotus was always cost to entry. the fact that so many popular figures/youtubers/content creators all had the pricy mana cards really lead to a feeling of FOMO for someone who didnt feel like dropping more than 7$ on a single card. i could see the FOMO being a lot worse for someone more ingrained into the community. if they simply printed mana crypt as much as sol ring, i could see that card having a similar legacy
as for sol ring being everywhere.. i feel like its a non-issue? like sure, a lot of my friends have it, but it never really leads to that big of an issue in the long run. maybe its a competitive-only thing.
It's a lot of factors honestly, and everyone's opinion will be different. For instance I'm not a fan regardless of price (hence #BanSolRing for a video even though that's cheap). I think the reason they were banned though, was because the games where the cards made an appearance lead to one player steam rolling the rest and that's not great fun even for casual players. WotC could battle this by printing even more busted cards, but then we get into the issue of every deck starting to look the same. Which is why they said they made cards like Jeweled lotus rare to begin with. Very tricky situation all round
I don't use Sol Ring in any of my decks because its much more fun to find clever or on-theme ways to ramp... Also just pointing out, Traveler's Amulet isn't ramp... :^) Now if all the Traveler's Amulets were replaced with Wayfarer's Bauble we'd be talkin!
But WotC HAS been printing lots of slower and cooler than Sol Ring 3 cost rocks with unique effects: Patchwork Banner, Misleading Signpost, Cursed Mirror, Progenitor's Icon... uhh Staff of Compleation and a bunch more... and there's a lot of old ones, Phyrexian Totem feels like abuse in my Shirei deck. xD
I think they should get rid of The List, Showcase, and Secret Lair... and Special Guests should be 30 on-theme-full-art reprints with a better pull rate. Like 1 in 12 packs. (Or the Special Guests could be the Showcase cards.)
But I also think each set should only have 1 commander precon, something that really captures the set as a whole...
Bumbleflower going all-out as a Gift deck as the only Bloomburrow precon would have been perfect, the other set abilities are very niche and derivative.
I agree actually. Adding these cards into regular packs, and slowing down designed for the format cards would be great imho
This is the beginning of the end of Commander.
The Finance bros will help Hasbro ruin the format.
I'm working on a video right now basically exploring it exactly that
Sol Ring is a staple. Having 10 effective sol ring cards in a deck is practically not even a singleton format. Sol ring is baseline. Level 1. Thanks.
You make an interesting point. I wonder what a 90 card format with them all banned would look like
Technically "Traveler's Amulet" is not ramp!
It puts the land in your hand and not into play, so you can't get above the curve with it (without further effects).
But yeah, ban Sol Ring and fix Standard, WotC!
True. I'd like to say "I said that so people would correct me in the comments" but sadly I'm not that smart haha
Thinking about it. Investors sellin their cards in fear of losing money to lower prices seems like heaven for me. On the other hand. I proxy 90 percent of my decks so i dont realy care :D
Hasbro may own the rules, but my printer owns the paper :D
Haha! I love it
Being a veteran magic player, the world around art has been a wild ride. As I am sure you know, Fallen Empires tried to have different art for the same cards, and people HATED it. There was an idea that the art of a card was part of its identity. Over time, with core set reprints and reprints in other blocks, people began to warm up to alternate art, and it has become a mainstay of the game.
I agree that having optional arts to choose from help players customize their decks and is a good thing. Even the basic lands.
You know I'd forgotten about that. God, imagine people then seeing the state of the game now. Secret Lair would blow them away
I have personally started to lean more into Conquest over Commander, partially due to the longer ban list, partially due to the faster games, even with how much less fast mana is allowed in the format.
From a financial perspective, these bans were always just a matter of making the assets momentarily less liquid. Because it was obvious from the announcement that something cEDH would break off: none of the cards are an issue there. So soon as that format coalesced, the prices would recover - especially given that WOTC would be more hesitant to include them in future products if they're banned. That particular aspect did change with the brackets idea, but they would still obviously recover.
The brackets system they've suggested so far doesn't seem, to me, like a step in the wrong direction. Standard's issues have stemmed from godawful card design and play design working in tandem, whereas Modern's issues were predated in commander, with product printed directly to it. With the format so large and so uniquely vulnerable to pubstomping because everything was ill-defined handwaving of "oh, your group will figure it out, nuts to you if you want to play pickup though," something like this was inevitably going to be lurched towards.
I'm working on a follow up to this video that's all about the bracket system. And I agree, it's not a step in the wrong direction but (to me at least) seems to be a step in no direction. I also agree that the issue has always been power creep and scarcity, and sadly those are things I don't think that will be fixed under WotC
I think for play groups, it's effectively a step in no direction - though the upswing of their 'officially' undoing certain bans may help there.
For pickup games, offering a central hub of ideas about what the various philosophies of play are and what types of cards populate those various philosophies is a real improvement. Under the current rules and guidelines, all four of the banned cards were perfectly fine in a deck I'd call a '6,' because there was no agreed-upon 1-10 scale that players could reference. And "Bracket 1" sounds better than "I'm a 4," a description no-one would ever give their deck.
I have to say I kinda agree with the bannings. The most frustrating thing about playing in a pod is someone playing these cards and deny that their deck is a power 7 or higher only to combo off soo hard no one has a chance to respond. Even if I lose, I want to at least play the game. Someone speedballing past midrange past the early game setup takes that chance away.
i have a version of sol ring that i think was for pride or something. really liked the art and flavor text: "the relic has been kept in a place of power, of community, of friendship---distilling magic from the light of love."
got it off ebay. it really stands out
That's cool as hell! I'd love it if they did more stuff like this
I’m so glad you were clear about harassment being wrong, thank you.
Other commentary on this has kinda fallen short in addressing how terrible harassment is.
All this has kinda changed the way I see mtg a lil, and I’m still processing it tbh.
On a lighter note, I maybe disagree with the idea of a sol ring ban. Cos it’d invalidate every boxed Commander deck and that’s such faff for everyone. (Even if precons are exempt, the deck checks would be a misery)
But otherwise I largely agree with what you’ve said here, and I’m really glad of that
I dare to say that if they had banned sol ring, (people would still complain, don't get me wrong) the reaction wouldn't be this extreme because at least it would show some consistency from the RC. The fact that they chose to keep Sol Ring just made people that much more suspicious that the RC has its hands tied to WoTC, and that is infuriating.
It would turn all Commander decks into illegal pieces of cardboard.
@@casmiry I understand that… but it would be just a matter of replacing a dollar card
Even with precons they could have introduced a rule that said all precons are fully legal if unedited
@@RedBobcatGames That would probably lead to some people unironically playing the Dockside extortionist pre-con with Dockside just to "stick it to the man"
I like all the red bobcat's videos
Thank you very much, always appriciated
The problem with the Sol Ring ban is that it would render the absolutely ONLY affordable event chain to a lot of people, Commander Party, unable to be olayed. Playing with precon decks for $6 entry fee, or 25 PLN which is a price lower than your typical one person meal in Poland -- while Prerelease or even Draft events are already more expensive than 120 PLN and this is money not everyone can just throw weekly. Due to the ban of the Dockyard Extortionist, one precon is already illegal during the event.
You're not wrong. I think maybe they could say all precons are legal as long as they remain unedited. But as for everyone else, my thinking is if the other 4 need to go then Sol Ring should have gone for the same reason
I actually look for alternate arts for my sol rings and command towers, and basically any cards that I have in multiple decks... all of my basic lands are different...
You're spot on with your opinions! I agree with everything you've said!
Well done with your observations and sharing!
Thank you very much, always nice to hear
I find this to be a complex issue within magic. Commander being run by wotc is a horrible turn of events and will lead to broken, format warping cards being the norm. On the other hand I also believe that the less bans the better for commander because the card pool is far to big to ever make "fair" and wizards will print new cards to take the place of the banned ones. Id rather see time put into power level brackets or a elo system like chess. Each card is worth x points and you add em togther to get a power estimate. Can't lie about power when everyone knows the exact power upfront.
I'm SHOCKED that the BnR list and Rotation is about BOTTOM LINE!
GASP!!
I'm sorry to have to break it to you!
I've seen so a lot of people talking about how mtg card's should start increasing their price lie pokemon cards and I don't know why wotc hasn't seemed to pick up on it.
2:35 *looks into camera like jim from the office*
For less fun reasons though sadly
Came for the breaking news, stayed for the 🦀 dating.
Also, its so sad the fallout from all this especially considering commanders origin as a for fun casual format between tournament games.
Yeah, though I suspect the game will return to more of a kitchen table type thing given all of what's happened
Look I had a crypt and lotus in a deck along with vault and tomb...and I have to admit that lotus and crypt banning is for the better of the format. the issue is these cards were seeping into more and more casual games and it seems like SOME people dont have the social awareness when to pull out "that deck". Commander has a certain kind of etiquette where we all try to match the power level at the table that's why the 1-10 scale was attempted and why now were getting a 1-4 bracket system. To many people pulling slapping a lotus and or crypt against people playing at a precon level and that's never fun for new comers or casual players. The bans could have been done better but again it's for the better of the format, and if were being honest lotus never should have been banned and crypt should have been banned years ago. And if you have these cards and want to play them you can always rule 0 them in.
Yeah, I agree. In fact I'd go further, not only should the cards not have been banned but I think they shouldn't have been printed in the first place
As someone who is typically pretty lazy about building new decks, but likes having the variety of playing multiple decks, banning sol ring would be incredibly annoying because that means every single precon that is printed I would then have to dig through, find the ring, pull it out of the deck, throw it away and find something to replace it. The whole point of the precons is the convenience of having a playable deck out of the box. I know, casual format, rule zero, whatever, but some people don't like letting you play with banned cards regardless of any of that and it just adds extra friction with getting new players into the game through those decks. I sure wouldn't have liked getting into it by immediately being told my deck isn't legal despite just opening it.
Yeah, i think they'd have to have a rule that says "Unedited precons are always legal"
I joke with friends and the occasional new player at the LGS that commander is a 97 card format because you start with command tower sol ring and arcane signet and then choose your commander
Yup, pretty much. Might as well have them in the command zone at this point
1:42? The carcination of the comments section? Count me in! High Pincher!
Yes, Sol Ring is good I. Artifact deck that could gain for the mana cost reduction and subsequent storm count. Like, my "Gnostro" Deck. Or a clone deck based all around artifacts. You can see: it's flavourful!.
I wouldn't add Some Ring in my others 7 decks.
Just for example.
Also yes, I'm not willing to use some cards because they are power crept out.
"Carcination of the comments section" made me laugh! And yeah I think if Sol Rings weren't as frequent I wouldn't have as much of an issue with them honestly
I have magic investors friends and none of them are upset about the prices at all. In fact, most of them made massive profits from all of this. The people hurt financially are the ones that bought these to play them and that sunk cost is now not even worth a game piece.
That sucks to hear
Sold my pulled Jeweled Lotus to a friend, about a month before the ban.
Luckily for him, I sold it to him for 50 bucks.
Edit: I also recently built a Rakdos deck out of purely bulk. Zero staples. No signets, no mox, no sol ring, no Commander Tower.
Just good ole shitty Magic. And it SPANKS.
See THAT'S how it should be done!
im upset they used the least scary cultivate for duskmourn commander decks. if youre going to give me 1 cent cards then give me them in unique art
Which version would you prefer? Or would you want new art? Because honestly part of me thinks precons set on certain planes should all be either cards from that plane originally or featuring new art
It's valid to be annoyed that the bans happened so late that people wasted money on an expensive card, but its not valid to expect people to not ban cards because of their financial value.
MTG is a game, the banlist exists to protect the fun of the game not investments.
Yeah, I agree. Though, I can understand why those people are upset
14:23 i was surprised that sol ring didnt enter with a stun counter or entered tapped.
Ha! That would have been good to be fair!
If you explained to people that Sol Ring is akin to the never ending process in which a person has to continually "upgrade their decks" to "keep up with the Meta" they would laugh at you can say, "But Sol RIng is Casual"
But when you say that would Dockside and Jeweled Lotus or Mana Crypt, they would cope and seethe because they just don't have access to such cards, and are too prideful or embarrassed to make Proxies. Like fellas, open your eyes. If EDH is casual, we shouldn't care, but we all suddenly did care.
Some people cared too much it seems!
The RC did this to themselves even if the people who did death threats are POS. From what iv seen they went behind too many back to make this huge ban, they knee it was huge, and they knew that people had money into collection, player, investor or otherwise, It looks very bad and very suspect. This isn't just a communities fault the RC is not absolve of blame nore is Wotc but wotc being a huge issues themselves is obvious.
My group just orders proxies now and we have no ban list, play power 9 and its so much fun
Edit the casuals need sol ring to keep up with the players who have other fast mana, not ramp, fast mana
I was playing a pre-con the other day and had Sol Ring sitting in my hand for several turns until I played it when I need addition mana. I add command tower in all my decks as I like the art work of my command tower and Arcane Signet is saved for Commanders with 3 colors as I might need mana fixing. I also have several removal cards in everysingle deck these days with Sol Ring's name on it.
Ahh, the anti-Sol Ring approach, I can get behind that
@@RedBobcatGames I also figured there is a card called Cast into The Fire that can exile an artifact for red and a colorless mana at instant speed, perfect for that damned One Ring.
there are probably three times as many variants of sol ring compared to that amulet. but let’s complain anyways bc there “aren’t enough variants”
Sure, but those variants mostly aren't Universes Within and are mostly from precons or secret lairs. Like I said I'd like to see them printed in normal packs too so they're more easily available
Tbh i think they should put Sol Ring as an ability in a commander zone at this point
Oooh now this I could get on board with actually
How about this? The RC and now WotC are creating a tier system that means that no cards have to be outright banned (except ofc the ones banned everywhere) since powerful or salty cards can be soft banned from lower tiers. You can make Sol Ring tier 2 if you want so you can have somewhere to play where it isn't allowed and I can still play my Mana Crypt in my high power decks. Let people play their cards.
Yeah I mean I don't know if we need ban lists for that though honestly. Mostly that just sounds like Kitchen Table magic for me, and maybe events should have house rules? I'm not sure
I think people overvalue the idea of even 10 cards in a commander deck being homogenous amongst colours.
It's a singleton format. It's not that big of a deal.
True, but I find if you play enough of it you will eventually get bored of seeing those same 10 cards
I do think Sol Ring being around might be a good thing. I don't play Commander, but it seems to me that having an explosive start from time to time is a good thing for a casual format, as long as it doesn't happen too often; therefore you may want to have one "best" card in the format so that from time to time you get to start a game overpowered - but not too often
Yeah, i can understand that. It's just if we have to have it, I wish it had different arts like we see with lands
I'll have you know, I've been running Mark Tedin's Sol Ring art since my first EDH deck! :P
But good point there, as somehow even my 4th Edition Sol Rings seem special in most pods I've been in recent years.
I'm always torn on the premise of Sol Ring in the 99... because it feels good to have, it's generally easy to reach early-game if not in the opener, it offsets more cost-heavy cards making them more reasonable to play and makes having your commander deleted feel less bad.
But at the same time, it always feels like an auto-include, which is a -1 to more creative choices. It's the same reason a lot of players avoid and cut basic lands, even if we still have the option of finding really nice and thematic artworks to fit our decks.
The concept of official bans in this casual format is an odd one to me. When I first entered the format around 2010, the banned cards were things that could abruptly and unfairly end games like Biorhythm, things that overextended the games like Upheaval (somehow Shahrazad was overlooked at the time), and cost-prohibitive cards like the Power 9. I played a lot during the time that Primeval Titan was legal, and I found him equally fun to play with and against-- the ability to use an opponent's Primeval Titan from their library or graveyard was as much a staple in my playgroups as the titan himself. After Primeval Titan was banned, even though my playgroups almost exclusively played commander with each other, we all abandoned our beloved titan to conform with the rules.
As the banlist adds more cards, I feel like it's more and more of a "Rule 0" discussion. Some cards are just plain unhealthy, and that's why they're banned. Some cards are fun and, in the right pod, not an unfair card in the pool. I like using Sol Ring, but I find more and more players who dislike it, and even have pride for not running it in their decks. I'd be more than happy to swap out my flaming ring for something else in a pod, just as I'd personally allow players to use stuff like Primeval Titan in our casual game. I've always been very pro-proxy (and it really helps with the individuality of decks), so it really comes down to the kind of game that everyone wants to play. Discussion is the most important part when it comes to commander, as it's intended to be a casual, social format. I never saw winning as the primary objective in a game of commander, but moreso "how many cool things can we get to happen."
I suspect given what's happened we'll see more people leaning towards just doing their own thing at the table anyway. If honestly I'm in favour of. But then, I am one of those types that likes running the basics because of all the different "on theme" lands I can include
I'd argue for Wayfarer's Bauble over Traveler's Amulet, since Bauble actually ramps. Obviously one is a riff of the other I dunno which) since the names are synonyms so it doesn't matter too much
Yeah, you're right. I just really like Traveler's Amulet haha
WOTC will ban cards in other formats if a card shows up in too many decks. Tons of decks have Sol Ring and that should be good enough of a criteria to ban it based on other banning precedence.
Ooooh, you make a very good point
I have still yet to hear a single argument againsts these bans that doesn't take into account money. I believe price in the secondary market should never EVER be taken into account in the conversation of banning cards. It would be like a fighting game not nerfing a broken character because "it was a DLC character so it would be unfair to the people who bought the extra character"
To be honest, thinking on it I think you're right. I guess I've heard some people say that the cards shouldn't be banned because they don't believe any cards should banned. But outside of that, not really anything
@@RedBobcatGames Yeah, I think there are so many people, including youtube channels all about "finance" and those have really gotten in players' brains. This is a game, first of all it is a game, and if something is bad for the game it shouldn't be there
Sucks to hear about all the death threats, the Internet is a terrible place sometimes. I will say though you handled it very well in the crabdate
Thank you very much
I would rather not ban sol ring, because the mana building phase is boring and I want to get going faster. And everyone having access to an artifact that gets you a colorless pool to splash around with makes the game faster.
See I like that phase honestly. I'm with the "slower more social" crowd I think
I have like 12 decks and not running Sol Ring in any of them. Managed to convince one buddy and now we are spreading the idea together:)
Do it!
38 decks in total, only 4 run Sol Ring. One is from the earlier days the other 3 are artifact or big mana decks.
Almost included it in mine Zevlor "but just the bad single target spells" deck, but decided against it.
I am one of the few that are optimistic for WotC taking in the format and looking to form brackets for cards. This defines the power level of cards and allows casual players to reject the use of them at tables. This also allows the use of almost all cards in some capacity in some level of play. WotC also has the resources to gather, study, and present a bracketed list for all of the cards. Not all communities within Commander need this system, it's moreso for locals and it's presentable as deck building challenge for some people looking to build for certain brackets.
This is actually what my next video is on, because while I'd agree that they could do exactly what you said it seems like they're planning something different. They seemed to suggest they're not going to bracket all the cards, and maybe even none of the cards but instead just use the brackets as more philosophical guidance. I guess we'll have to wait and see
@@RedBobcatGames still very much appealing to hear given complaints about power disparities at tables. Everyone's 7 is different and all that. Framing power of Commander staples would help guide players to understand levels of play cards should be at.
@@RedBobcatGames I think it's way too early to tell. The devil's in the details
Sans Bolas ring!
i understood the secre message in the scrambled : "Red bobcat - Ban sol ring"
oh... it was no hidden message game?
It is, just don't tell anyone!
I havent watched the whole video yet, but well done for the "this is not a breaking news channel" disclaimer. I hare clickbaiting and not enough people are honest about their uploads this way. Thanks for that. You immediately get my respect as a "good" content creator (until proven otherwise..lol). 👍
Well thank you very much, I hope the rest of the video was to your liking too
@@RedBobcatGames I cant honestly say I watched it all, Im a "returning player" of sorts just aiming to get back in at Foundations, but Ive watched way too many videos on the topic this week. That being said I agree with your assessments on the banning and sol ring, in theory, i also dont have enough info of whats gone on in the last 8 years of MTG to really know whats good or bad yet, oh and you did a great job with the narration and editing, excellent content. 👍
They greatest success of WotC is convincing players that a fake, casual format, created by a bunch of nerds in their basement, needs to be moderated and have specific rules. And instead of giving them the finger for trying to control kitchen table Magic, players agreed and gave them their money and even made groups and sites like the Command Zone and EDHREC that did more harm than good for card prices and the overall health of the game.
It does seem the future is going to be more players just wandering off and doing their own thing, certainly
@@RedBobcatGames it's no wonder that a good chunk of the player base migrated towards the truly eternal formats of Old-School and Premodern. At least there they know that there is no way that WotC can intervene with the rules and card lists. Personally, I've abandoned Commander in favor of low to mid power 60-card theme decks for kitchen table play. They are way cheaper and much more enjoyable because it's 1vs1, everything goes games.
I cannot fathom WoTC would handle Commander's banlist and balancing anywhere near as well as the RC used to. Granted they weren't always on point with their bannings, but I do not see WoTC having any control over what they do and don't ban. They could very easily unban those four cards and we'd be right back where we started, if not worse. New and arguably more powerful cards could be forced into the format, without anyone being able to stop them. I could see it following other cardgames where WoTC refuses to ban powerful cards for the reason of keeping their prices artificially high. What's a game to them, than just an engine to print infinite money?
I don't see commander tower, arcane signet or sol ring as problems because of the very same reasons you mentioned before but for a different reason. They are cheap, accessible, and every commander player has access to them. Or at least to a point where they aren't paying more than a handful of dollars to acquire them. Cheap staples are always better for the game than having expensive auto-include staples. Yes they homogenize the game as well, but having those cards be so much more available and affordable than Mana Crypt or Dockside Extortionist says so much.
True, and I agree in that I cannot image WotC doing as well as stewards of the format either
Wizard told them it was a bad idea and they did it anyways!!!
That does seem to be the case, but honestly I kind of respect them for doing their own thing (even if that wasn't exactly a great plan)
2:45 I have another perspective on this statement that the people who are angry at these bans and behaving badly should be directing their anger toward WotC for creating the predatory market conditions in the first place. Most of the people who made those threats are in favour of WotC cultivating this market and pushing cards meant to grow to over €100 in value. They can never be convinced that such market conditions are bad, they want secure assets which will accrue value and they’re only angry that the RC interfered with their asset security for the purpose of healthy gameplay. There is no one else they can direct their anger toward. Not that they should, I know you didn’t mean that they should harass WotC instead of the RC. These are just bad people who want to participate in card market speculation and investment. I suspect that if WotC now unbans Crypt and Lotus, there won’t be death treats from the people who did agree with the the RC decision because people who agreed had no financial investment and their concern was game experience, or altruism. Death threats are far more likely to come from people motivated by financial self interest. WotC would likely act in future to minimise backlash from the people who are more likely to make threats and the game would suffer.
Yeah, and it's all a really sorry state of affairs. Like I said at the end there, I hope WotC learn from this and change their ways
I think you should have used Wayfarers Bauble instead of Traveler's Amulet.
Yeah probably, but I just really like Traveler's Amulet though. It's so pretty!
A deck that has mana crypt and sol ring assuming everything else is the same is objectively more powerful then a deck with just sol ring, assuming again that everything else is equal. The RC didn't like talking about it, but price and availability matter when discussing power. Is sol ring to strong? yes, but its fun sometimes to have it in your opening hand.
Sure, and like I say if they printed some different arts I think I'd have much less of an issue with it
personally i dont think sol ring should be banned because it would put just about every starter deck out of comission and starter decks for non rotating formats should always be legal out of the box unless there was a rule that unmodified precons dont have to worry about ban lists
I think that would be the way to go, not just for Sol Ring but any changed cards in them going forward
Cynical me is waiting for them to print a "fixed" version of all these cards to try and fill the gap and still have their pretty chase cards.
I suspect cynical you may be correct
I agree that each card should have been banned
But I also agree that the RC maybe should have decided that the non-unanimous decisions could wait until their next quarterly meeting
If they had just banned Dockside & Nadu I think everyone would have been fine
The mana rocks basically tripled the amount monetarily that players lost from this announcement - if they had done the mana rocks in a separate announcement I think it probably would have given the market time to adjust to those first bans
We'll never know what might have happened if the RC had done this, but that's personally one way I think the RC could have mitigated the fallout of these decisions
I agree, a warning about banning the other two would have been nice and maybe saved a lot of pain in the process. It's a real shame the way it all played out
Sol Ring should be banned, but the hardest part is that all precons would contain an illegal card, and that's not friendly to new players who are getting into the format. I think that WotC should provide a replacement card somehow whether it be through the LGS that sells it, or they just mail you a card.
We had that before with precons. As long as the precon is played unchanged, all cards in it are considered legal.
But sure, that won't fix the confusion for new players, that they will have to replace the banned card when changing the deck.
Actually yeah, that's fair. Just say "Precons are legal as long as unchanged" I think could work
No piece of colored cardboard should be worth more than a dollar and the finance bros freakout proves that.
Yeah, it's embarrassing really
I want standard to be fun so badly. I came back to magic from yugioh specifically because I wanted a rotating format but standard doesnt get much support where I live so I'm stuck playing on arena where the meta is so bland.
Literally the only reason I started commander was how bland 60 card formats were getting. Maybe look into doing cubes, then you can "rotate" whenever you feel like it, or look into adding something like Planechase to your games for a little bit of extra spice.
@@PhoenicopterusR60 card formats are mostly played for competitive purpose so naturally you will run into the same decks when meta is created. When you play 60 card format with friends it is as fun as commander because you don't need to netdeck and just have fun at brewing.
Competitively though pauper appears to be the most interesting one since WOTC destroyed modern with MH3 and LotR sets. Pioneer seems not to take off. Standard - I have no knowledge on this one since I am not interested in a rotating format. Meanwhile pauper has valid combo decks, storm deck, tempo, aggro, walls, burn, affinity, goblins, elves, control faeries. Every week meta at my LGS is different. Affinity is the most common one obviously but not dominating.
@@vaazon My issue is that, despite early on playing exclusively 60-card with friends, the games felt samey after seeing the same deck 2 or 3 times and I wasn't looking to build a new deck every weekend just to keep things interesting. For me personally, Planechase made it bearable and commander kept things more varied for longer. I understand that's the nature of 60-card and I don't dislike it entirely, I just don't enjoy it for too many games.
I definitely forgot about Pauper, which I have heard many good things about. There's also some smaller alternative formats like Oathbreaker (maybe?) that fit the commander deck building but the speed of 60-card formats.
@vaazon I'm definitely thinking about picking up Pauper. It seems to have most of what I want from a 60-card format, and I can finally make it out to pauper night at my LGS.
I'm not massively up on standard at the moment, but was under the impression it wasn't doing great. I've been surprised by how many comments I've gotted from people saying they're really enjoy it
Disagree: Yes, when playing with randoms there is a likelihood of running into high-power decks, but that's why you ask what everyone's playing beforehand if it truly matters to you. However, when you are playing with the same group of people [haha just rule 0 loser x3] then you know exactly what your play group is doing and the power relatively speaking.
The banlist should be removed and rebuilt fully, if not permanently removed and replaced by like 5 'Warning' cards as a true signpost. I rather have no bans and be pushed further to ask if people are running toxic stuff than have power reduced across the board. Nadu was the ONLY ban I'm perfectly fine with because his playstyle was toxic due to time management. If price and power are issues then why are cards from the reserved list still unbanned?
Honestly I suspect with everything that's happened that house rules and only rule zero will be the way most people end up playing anyway
WOTCs control over the format might work out the kinks right now and for the short time, but we should be cautious. Its admirable that they still want the community involved in the running of the format, but Commander is Magic's cash cow right now. Its not too difficult to see that the company might bring down a mandate that will affect the format, without real input from the community. I mean, they released a Modern Horizon set and made commander precons as a supplementary product instead of Modern precons 😅 They are very commander-happy right now. And now they control it.
Yeah, and I cannot imagine we'll ever see similar bannings for the health of the format again which is a shame
Wotc ruined commander before commander was taken over by them.
Oh yeah, 100%. As soon as they started designing cards for the format basically
We should all just adopt yyyy-mm-dd format. But to be more serious, I've been saying this since it happened. People complaining know black lotus is busted. I know they know. I also know they know jeweled lotus is just black lotus but commander. You know these cards are busted. Stop complaining.
Can I suggest a dd-dd-yyyy-dd-mm system just to really mess with people?
i liked for crab
The best like I've ever recieved
Appreciate the video as always. Rule 0 and Proxy are never more relevant than now.
100% agree
As Americans we get it, there is no 25th month of the year!
Ha, I'd almost forgotten I'd included that bit
@@RedBobcatGames It is funny. I do prefer the non American format.
Probably a hot take...Maybe precons need a little fun bump with Sol Ring in them. So with the new tier system, make Sol Ring allowed in only precon level of play. Ban Sol Ring in the higher power tier levels. This is coming from someone who plays and collects all the precons with no modifications. My favorite way to play magic has always been with the precons all the way back to my first one...The Spikes from Stronghold.
But, I feel on the otherhand there's a suggestion here that the precons aren't fun without them. And if that's the case, couldn't we just make better precons?
@@RedBobcatGames I learned from watching the Distraction Makers (game designers) channel that part of what makes a format casual is having higher variance and less consistency. Example, an amateur like me could never beat a grand champion at chess since their is no variance, meaning chess is all skill. However, in magic because of variance, you can still expect to sometimes beat a pro player. So keeping this single high power card (Sol Ring) that allows for an extra exciting start within precon level is a good thing imo. Its iconic and fun. And since its the only one in the precon level, then it can't be consistent and retains high variance and so is therefore very casual by nature. When someone does get an opening hand Sol Ring when playing casual precons we are usually excited for them. And when its you, its like wining the opening hand lottery lol.
remember rule 0. I don't care about what a bunch of beurocrats on the other side of the planet have to say about the game I'm playing. Sure, official events are barred to this type of play-style, but I'm playing with my friends.
Pretty much the best way to be honestly
It's honestly very hard for me to hold any sympathy for the players that treated this game like a stock market exchange and who many went on to harass and threaten people over it.
I have sympathy for them up until the threats
I think this happened in part because under the hood, commander is fundamentally bad. Now, obviously the cards shouldn't have been printed, this wasn't the right way to address that problem, and the overreaction to that mismanagement was awful, but I think it got this bad because the format's dysfunctional on a conceptual level.
You have a 100 card singleton deck, but that extra variance is balanced by always having access to your commander. But just in case, here's a free mulligan. And a draw on the first turn. And completely ubiquitous fixing. And every tutor in the game is legal except for Golos, Primeval Titan, and Tinker. Is it meant to be extra-consistent, or extra-varied?
Speaking of those cards that aren't banned, part of the reason for that is the ban list is apparently only intended as an example of the kind of things that we shouldn't play, not a functional ban list at all. Unfortunately, there's no clear and consistent logic on display. If there was, it would still be easier to remember a longer list than it is to read, internalize, extrapolate, and reach a group consensus from the explanations of why each individual card was banned, but we can't even do that, because Thassa's Oracle is legal, Coalition Victory isn't, and the very first card on the list, Ancestral Recall, tells you that they only banned it for optics as if it wasn't arguably the strongest card ever printed.
So people are left to treat the banned list as a banned list after all, except no they're not, because if you do that you end up with the opposite of all the goals laid out in the "philosophy of commander" article and the reasons most people play it in the first place: CEDH, a style of play so different that it's arguably a second format. That leaves us with an accessible, casual format with about the same card pool as Legacy, so you can buy more wins until your friend group falls out. This is referred to as "self regulating" and its frequently cited as a reason cards are actually fine. After all, they can't ruin the game if they already did and nobody wants to play.
But we shouldn't worry about buying wins, because it's a social format! That's why interacting too much with other players is sternly discouraged, the cards everybody's' decks are built around just come back anyway so it's a bit pointless to try, there's no reward for being the one to move the game forward, there's kingmaking, there's player elimination (losing your commander would feel bad, but straight up dying is fine), and, as mentioned above, there's mismatched power levels only kept in check by disapproval. You know, social things. With your friends.
We want long games where we can play pet cards and overcosted jank, so there's 40 life. But we're eliminating people, so it looks like somebody's going to have sit out for a long time playing nothing at all. But maybe not! 3 opponents with double life only means "long game" if everyone's politely trying to pretend that it does. 40 life with low interaction means ramp, combo, and stax are the only valid strategies. The first circumvents the life barrier, the second quickly overcomes it, and the third is mostly disallowed by community consensus and should probably lead to early concessions anyway, so in practice the very thing slowing commander down is speeding it up.
The format is a bottomless well of paradoxes that players are asked to figure out in a "pre game conversation". I've heard people talk as if disliking this idea is somehow immature or anti-social, but you know what? I think I want my pre-game conversations to be about anything other than all the things I don't want my friends to do, or figuring out if we're even trying to play the same game. I like talking with people. I don't like needing to talk about that. If people want to customize commander to suit their group, wonderful. They shouldn't have to finish making it, though. That defeats the point in a format. As it is, we don't even have that: I think commander is not only supplied incomplete, it's impossible to complete. The widely accepted rules provided to us have irresolvable conflicts baked into them.
None of this is to say that it's not fun, but put me in a room with three people I already get along with and we'll have fun with an empty bag of crisps, so what's even the point?
I think I basically agree with everything you said. And that's why, to me it felt more like these bans were for WotC than the players. The RC said they wanted to send a message, I believe to WotC letting them know to cool it on the power creep, but it had knock on effects to the player base and here we are
There will always be new player created formats, and for better or worse, WOTC will create cards that sell to those formats... Gifting in Bloomburrow seems like a great mechanic that benefits multiplayer, and it's not the first. Calling out "commander" in the Assassin's Creed set seemed to me like too much... but I'm curious how much of the future decisions WOTC makes will be based on the success of Arena, where every mythic rare has effectively the same cost, so it's a great onramp for new players... and Brawl is similar to Commander, but it's not multiplayer. I suspect new players will often durdle around on Arena, then pick up a Commander pre-con, and then what? Buy some chase rares that they realize they don't need, or learn to draft better, or stay on Arena and drop Commander? My personal frustration is starter products that sell out when they contain one or two chase rares. The optimist in me says WOTC has done a great job with Standard, and they need to fix their other formats. Biggest change coming up for new player will probably be Foundations, though.
Yeah, fingers crossed for standard honestly. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with Foundations
great video
Could we make a pre-modern version of Commander. Need to pick a set and allow card before that era. But i do love Artisan Commander, but I want to ban the Sol Ring and Thran Dynamo since they are basically stupid ramp. With the uncommon rarity, some of the brokeness power creep is taimed.
Oooh, perhaps. Though that may be easier to house rule as a kicthen table game
People confused the word investment with paying for a card for your decks as an investment in your decks. If you are investing in magic cards for financial purposes. You probably made money despite the bans. If you aren't doing it for money and bought some of these cards to play. You lost money. The dismissal of those people isn't fair either. I don't care that I lost money. Having said that. Most agree the way this was handled was flawed at best and wizards having the opportunity to talk the RC out of it but the CAG and the players didn't. This is the issue that most players are upset about. You can dismiss them too but you don't represent everyone. This isn't a direct reply to the video. More so the comments here. The RC deserves respect but they got it wrong. The threats just took everything to a level no one wants.
Yeah I was gonna say, I don't feel like I dismissed anyones point of view here. And I agree with what you said actually. I think they were right to ban cards if they thought it was best for the game, but the way they went about it was wrong. Sadly, it's all academic now. Lets just hope things aren't for the worse
@@RedBobcatGames No, your video wasn't unfair in any way. I don't agree with everything you said but that doesn't mean I can't talk to you. Cordially, but I look at your comments and one of the top ones were about people investing. I'm not sure people totally understand how the economy of magic really works. The investors that people actually don't like stay away from singles unless they are reserve list. There aren't that many people who were buying up manacrypts because they were going up in price. They pretty much stabilized at 190 for the longest time and the ones that really lost money were the players and the LGS stores. So whoever is making this claim that somebody was buying up manacrypts and sitting on them doesn't have a clue and I don't mean that rudely. But even the speculator market is tiny compared to how many people actually played with those cards saved up to buy one and even bought sealed products recently to get them. If somebody can show me that there were speculators on these banned cards, I would sure like to see that evidence because I can tell you right now being in a family that owns a local game store. No one and I mean no one who seriously invests in magic for financial purposes is touching modern singles like mana crypt except game stores. It's sealed and reserved list. This idea that if you care about the value of your cards going down you are a bad investor is not only unfair it shows a complete misunderstanding of magic and why it's still here today.