Do YOU Know The Rule? - Unable To Scream, Rooms and Layers - MTG
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- This one stumped most people 😅
You have The Dollmaker's Shop out and cast Colossal Dreadmaw and pass your turn. Your opponent enchants your Dreadmaw with Unable to Scream. They pass. On your turn you unlock Porcelain Gallery. What is your Dreadmaw's power/toughness.
Thanks to Jenn for posting this brainteaser on their Twitter - / jenn_the_judge
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My comment got used as an example... sweet!
LOL thanks for meaningfully contributing!
I super enjoyed the explanation and I even stole a screen of the 7 tiers of layers ❤ thank you for these cool videos!
Ahhhh of course 😅🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
There’s this weird disconnect with locked rooms. Like, a locked room doesn’t have a mana value but yet you still have to know the mana value to pay it to unlock the room. So the locked room is non-existent to the gameplay but has to exist to be able to pay the mana cost listed on the card. But here’s no actual rule describing this.
Doesn’t involve the stack I love weird interactions like that neat
Thank! I appreciate your kindness a TON!
It's interesting that they decided not to update the timestamps of a room when you unlock a door.
Being a special action isn't necessarily the reason itself since turning a morph face up is also a special action, but that does give it a new timestamp.
If I had to guess why, it's because static abilities of a permanent normally get the same timestamp of permanent itself. They didn't want to give it a separate timestamp for each half since each permanent can only have one timestamp, and they didn't want unlocking a door to change the timestamp of the whole thing or else the timestamp for Porcelain Gallery would update when you unlocked Dollmaker's Shop, which would be weird.
I think that's super plausible. I sort of thought this out as different from morph, since the effects of your creature, and timestamps of it's abilities, are entirely hidden to everyone, so it sort of needs new time stamps when flipped.
@@TopdeckTech sure, compared to this one which just hides then via a text changing effect.
Yeah it's public but not technically in effect? Which...sagas and classes are the only things similar i suppose? Though i dont actually know how timestamps work on those. Theyre not split permanents so i imagine those are abilities that add a timestamp
@@TopdeckTech Sagas have always have each of their chapter abilities, which are all triggered abilities. Some, like Urza's Saga, grant it abilities, in which case the effects was granted to it from the resolution of a ability so it will have the timestamp of the ability that created it similar to how the effects of Mighty Leap or Vhati Il-Dal have a timestamp from when it resolves rather than sharing the timestamp of the creature it targets.
107.15a: "{rN}-[Effect]" means "When one or more lore counters are put onto this Saga, if the number of lore counters on it was less than N and became at least N, [effect]."
Classes have a static ability that grants them the abilities of their level. Since it's a static ability, it shares a timestamp with the class itself rather than being granted by the act of leveling it up. Leveling up a class doesn't change the timestamp.
716.2a: "[Cost]: Level N - [Abilities]" means "[Cost]: This Class's level becomes N. Activate only if this Class is level N-1 and only as a sorcery" and "As long as this Class is level N or greater, it has [abilities]."
Rooms are slightly different than classes since instead of getting the appropriate functionality from an ability granting effect as long as you meet the requirements, it's instead removed by a text changing effect as long as you don't meet the requirements. The difference is presumably since unlocking doors affects more characteristics than just abilities, but it's interesting that you couldn't have a class with the text of Secret Arcade since it would try to apply the type changing effect on layer 4 before it was granted the appropriate ability on layer 6...
709.5: Some split cards are permanent cards with a single shared type line. A shared type line on such an object represents two static abilities that function on the battlefield. These are "As long as this permanent doesn't have the 'left half unlocked' designation, it doesn't have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object's left half" and "As long as this permanent doesn't have the 'right half unlocked' designation, it doesn't have the name, mana cost, or rules text of this object's right half." These abilities, as well as which half of that permanent a characteristic is in, are part of that object's copiable values.
Another great video, I like how you break it down. It makes it easier to understand.
A funny interaction with layers and clones is if you put Imprisoned in the Moon on a creature then use Thespians Stage to copy it you'll get a copy of the original creature lol
HAHA love this. I learned this playing against someone who used the green aura that does the same
@@TopdeckTech Song of the Dryads. Excellent removal spell. I like both of them better than Darksteel Mutation or Kennrith's Transformation because they can't just sacrifice it or bounce it they have to destroy the Aura to get their creature (usually their commander) back
2:45 very cute doggo
That's our old baby
Been waiting for this answer!
I worked pretty hard to try and do the whole thing some justice!
I had the right answer for all the wrong reasons😂
I was planing to use transformation spells against my friends op commander cloning reliant deck to prevent his commanders etb effect...
So i guess i cant. But thanks for warning me in advance!
Yeah something like this still lets him clone the commander still unfortunately
Auras that take away abilities, like Unable to Scream, can't stop an etb since by the time you put them on it's already triggered (even if the spell had flash), but playing Dress Down in response will stop etbs.
So much knowledge!
i hear that it's power
Rules as written this is correct, but im still not sure i agree with it. I mean from A game design standpoint point, the intuitive solution, the second effect having the newer time stamp, isn't the correct solution... I genuinely think they should add a rule change here to accommodate rooms. Just literally making opening a room reset the time stamp would just smooth over confusion regarding these cards because this is the way people are going to think it works anyways until rules lawyers correct them. I really don't think thos change would make that much of a difference to any rooms power more than just giving it a few more niche play scenarios.
Having a single permanent with multiple timestamps seems a bit annoying in my opinion, especially with lock and unlock mechanics being available via Marina. "Oh you shut down my effect? Let me lock and unlock the door."
Ultimately, it's rare that it is ever really an issue, but i think I can understand why they did it this way.
Especially since I think rooms are pretty strong.
@@TopdeckTech But your argument works backwards, why is locking and unlocking a room not an activated ability? It seems like an unnecessary wrinkle in the rules
@@victorminor1283I would assume it was the easiest way to make the rules work. Currently, unlocking half is a property of any split permanent with one or more locked halves. If they made it an ability of the door though, that would clash with having locked doors lose their rules text.
BACKGROUND DOG
What’d you call me 🤭
@@TopdeckTech foreground youtuber
kinda overcomplicating it 😅
whatever was cast last prevails
rooms cant be responded to once theyre on the board (like an activated ability but even LESS able to be reacted to)
my favorite is the basic lands with the paragraph of rules explaining them on them ❤
I dont think im over complicating it! Im explaining it to people who have never encountered or heard of layers.
question: isnt it the case that the unable to scream starts applying on layer four, then applies its effects before porcelain gallery applies on layer seven? i thought that effects that started on a lower layer applied before other effects in hugher layers CR 613.6 or am i reading that wrong?
Each effect is applied in the appropriate layer even if one ability creates effects that would apply in multiple layers like Unable to Scream (4, 6, 7b).
What you might be thinking of is that if an ability is removed after it begins to apply, it will still apply the remaining effects that are supposed to happen in later layers.
With Kudo and Dress Down, Kudo makes things bears in layer 4, then loses abilities in layer 6, which would normally stop it from setting p/t to 2/2, but since it's ability already began to apply, it will still set base p/t, but it will also still wait until 7b to do so.
Here though, the fact that UtS has effects in earlier layers doesn't make any difference to the fact that the 0/2 part happens in 7b.
"The parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones"
613.6: If an effect should be applied in different layers and/or sublayers, the parts of the effect each apply in their appropriate ones. If an effect starts to apply in one layer and/or sublayer, it will continue to be applied to the same set of objects in each other applicable layer and/or sublayer, even if the ability generating the effect is removed during this process.
This was something that was confusing for me for a long time. Lots of questions regarding what supersedes what.
Like if something applies in multiple layers like 4, 5, and 6, but a later effect applies in layer 6, can the new effect override the old effect? Does it override all layers or just the one layer in which it exists? Or does the one that applies on 4, 5 and 6 take some sort of precedence over all of them?
I think layers are so complicated that we also complicate it for ourselves in trying to pin down all of the parameters
@@TopdeckTechIt really depends on what you mean by "override".
@@seandun7083 i see- thank you that is exactly where the confusion is coming from!