@@Mil3o Freedom. When you are told one thing and it leads to the discovery that, well, if that works what about all this other 8th level stuff? That's satisfying, and precisely what I feel playing modded Minecraft
i think its defrent, minecraft is about the building blocks, and slowly changeing your place or places also moded minecraft is an eazy to make task simulator and you should stop playing them
@@happycamperds9917 Yes. When pressing multiple buttons on the same frame Strive will prioritize the "lowest" input, e.g. holding P K S and HS will result in P coming out.
My absolute favourite stage of learning any fighting game is when the fundamental structure and idea of the game's combo system clicks in your brain and you're able to adjust and alter your combos on the fly because that inate knowledge of "oh this will work here" is just there in your brain You could be presented with a 1 in a million scenario you've never seen before and convert it into a combo because you understand the combo system at that base level
This is the level of comfort that makes me addicted to certain games and characters. When I can finally quit worrying about how to do certain actions, and instead think "Huh, this might be cool" and just do it. It's an incredible feeling.
If you want an in-depth combo system, try Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. It might seem basic at first, but cross combos and active switch give a lot of freedom in team comps and combos.
I have MK11 Kabal combo in my channel that was the direct result of what you just said. But too bad combos like that only involves krushing blows which is why I gave up on the game quickly.
Alright so just imagine his voice: Milk is a nutrient-rich liquid food produced by the mammary glands of mammals, like cows, goats, and humans if you’re into that kinda thing. But for real milk is unsurprising a pretty healthy drink, when it comes to bones and hydration and.. probably some other stuff I haven’t been able to research. What I can tell you though, is that it’s pretty good. Even on it’s own. But if you want to spice it up you should know milk is fundamental to drinks like Coffee and Tea and everything in between. And if you only like those drinks without milk I’m sorry but you should really consider seeing a therapist because if psychopathic tendencies like that are left unchecked I’d be worried about your future.
@@sufferingmp4102 Fine I'll bite. "Did you know... it's actually a mutant power? Believe it or not (and frankly I refuse to) humans had to evolve to drink milk as adults and that's strangely not the case for most mammals"
I think we should call them “when the moves combo together, not a link but a cancel, but not a special cancel, they’re all normals, a normal cancel, and you have to press the buttons in order, like left to right or right to left usually?”
"Doing motion inputs on a pad feels eldritch" Me who has only played fighting games on pads and mains Grapplers l8ke daimon: "Maybe I am an eldritch being"
Combos are also a way we express individuality in a fighting game, much like deckbuilding or team comps in other game genres. Combos and our combo choice let's us show who we are with our gameplay and differentiate us from everyone else that plays the same character.
The fact he use KOF as an example for links makes me sad. People really don't know anything about how those games were played. They were very cancel heavy: 2 lights / Proximity Heavy > Command Normal > Special was how almost everything worked unless it was a max combo (kind of like Strive. Why they decided to use the system from the other "too hard for newcomers" game I'll never know). Any KOF player will tell you that. Only 13 and to a lesser extent 14 were link heavy and it's one of the reasons 13 wasn't received very well by the old heads. People who like 13 a lot generally played it as their first KOF.
I too was quite saddened by the way Leon treats KoF in this video... But I'm also very confused by your claim that XIII was somehow "link heavy" in comparison to older games, or that this correlates to being part of the reason it wasn't well received by certain groups within the fanbase. It sounds like the kind of excuse people who care more about shitting on the Capcom crowd than actually playing good FGs would have made at the time, which may well have been a thing in 2011 but I suppose I wouldn't know since I didn't personally end up being involved until 2013. I mean, I know there _were_ links in XIII, but even if they could be considered more common there than in older titles it's not as if anyone _needed_ them to do basic bnbs.
It kind of confused me as well because the only experience i have with kof is trying to cancel lights into eachother for a combo and not doing it fast enough
I feel like it’s generally over all better for hits to have hit-stop as it makes combos feel more weighted as well as making it easier to asses what’s happening.
Hit stop is such a subtle thing I didn’t notice before but now I notice it everywhere. It’s a super easy and really useful technique to subtly sell the impact of a hit and help with hit confirming.
"Try and find a combo system for you! Maybe you did and it's Smash-" Huh, that's a weird way to spell Rivals of Aether. In all seriousness, great video and some of things here definitely needed to be said, mainly you don't NEED to go for the big combos, been saying that for a while and I'm glad someone agrees.
@@Y00bi fitting seeing as a lot of fgc peeps still refuse to acknowledge the existence of Platform Fighters as competitive Fighting Games But no we really do need a better name for that, 2D just isn't quite right and traditional, like you said, feels really strange and sometimes like an insult
This wasn't about what I expected it to be about. This seems more about Combo Systems than Combo Variety. I thought this was going to be about exploring the benefits of choosing your different combo trees throughout all games that have combos. Still satisfied with what I watched, good video. I started to zone out after halfway but that's because it's late and I was trying to figure out/mentally create my ideal fighting game. For me, combos are satisfying when I can land them. As soon as it feels like it should be a given that I nail a combo, then I'm only left with disappointment if I fail it and no satisfaction if I get it. What I get satisfaction from consistently is reading and counterplaying what I expect my opponent is going to do. Which is why I'm somewhat fond of Pokken. Though this video helped me realize its combos are lacking. I think it's important that combos aren't cutscenes and/or that the one being combo'd still has something they can do during the combo to counterplay it. And that likewise the one performing the combo can account for specific counterplays the one being combo'd can go for. So what I'm saying is that Smash Ultimate is almost my ideal of a fighting game and we're sworn enemies. I'll be lookin' around to see if there's other videos of yours I'm interested in.
Devil's advocate for Autocombo haters, they're a complete nightmare in DBFZ because their hitboxes and framedata are silly, they autocorrect side switches for you easily, and they make most confirms almost impossible to drop
Auto combos are fine in Xrd, Granblue and Darkstalkers because you need to win the neutral legit and there's always a break where you need to win neutral again to keep your gorilla pressure. You can't just guitar hero your way into a ToD like in most vs games.
As a DBFZ player, these personally feel like a mainly DBFZ issue, if turning around mid-autocombo got removed it'd make the game already dozens of times better and more punishing for people who crutch on autocombos like that.
@@Stroggoii here's the thing, those are the cancel systems he discussed, not auto combos. An auto combo is made up of one input pressed repeatedly, usually
Auto combos were *the* thing that allowed my friends who've never played fighting games to have fun in Xrd, and not anything that Strive tried. If anything Strive made the game *harder* to understand for me.
If anything Strive looks like they took DBFZ nerfed the combo variety and made the game so aggressive that the Neutral just doesn't exist for some characters. If anything the game is actually less newcomer friendly than before due to being so much more aggressive and it makes it difficult to learn any of the bigger tricks to the Neutral Game.
I just wanted to say that Leon has a really solid grasp on game design and is quite adept at conveying the important information to his point. Sounds easy, but it can be tricky to not get bogged down
@Kayden McCallum ^ exactly this. leon makes long videos with classic youtube tropes blended in (slight background music, generic editing, random humor) but most of his arguments are either just false or very misinformed.
He is very casual and not super into anything but GG. But he's funny, and you're more willing to accept people you like in positions of authority, so you perceive him as more capable than he is. What matters is that he's a good entertainer.
@@eoeaoe12e long videos? Most of his videos besides this one are 15 minutes or below and good editing isn’t a trope that’s like saying a movie having good directing and good camera work is a trope
@@Stroggoii Definitely entertaining, but I hold my point. What really keyed me in was his bringing the button mashing problem full circle, from the 3D point of view. That’s not exactly surface level stuff, and to make it funny as well? Being funny is probably more subjective, but his points on game design hold water.
I watched to 9:32 before I had to have a good hard look at my long suffering PS4 controller I've been playing GGST with. The dpad has probably lost a centimeter of material just from trying to do one BNB on Nago, and I'm still considering replacing my left thumb to avoid buying a fightstick like a real human being.
To be fair, the d-pad is a lot faster to use (and potentially more accurate, depending on the stick's gate) than an arcade joystick. Pad players have probably been more successful in tournaments than stick players. If you want something ergonomic that gets you an advantage (at the cost of losing a lifetime's worth of muscle memory), hitbox-style controllers are where it's at, not sticks.
You might wanna look into a pad with the kind of D-pad that doesn't destroy your thumb. It's probably gonna need a lot adjustment to get used to though, but it's still easier than stick or hitbox/keyboard where you have to completely relearn your muscle memory.
0:25 If you look at me straight the eye and you tell me that guilty gear strive and street fighter V feel exactky the same, you will find a bullet in your cranium in approximately 17 frames.
They feel the same to people who can't get past the difficult skill floor that's janky, have a smoother skill floor and people will be able to tell the difference a lot more.
I just wanted to say that this video was EXACTLY what I've been looking for recently. Not only as a player, but as a solo indie dev. I love fighting games because of the characters, style and silly stories, but I could never get into it properly, I actually never understood how to do commands and combos. And recently, I've been very inspired to make a fighting game (a more casual-ish one at best), but it didn't matter what keywords I used, I couldn't find exactly what I've been missing in the genre. I didn't even find you with this video. And I didn't know that SF's combos were that simple (conceptually, at least, execution is another beast) and that's why I actually believe they were not intentional. Anyway, thank you so much for this in-depth talk and insight about this genre, it genuinely helped me a LOT.
...but no seriously can we talk about how the pony game does everything right and nobody talks about it to make it actually related to the video, every character has the exact same basic bnb available, learn it once and you can now forget about basic functioning and focus on exploring individual tools, I love it
Yeah, the pony game(much as so many "big boy" fgc members dread to admit) actually nails it excellently and makes itself available not only to the long-time vets, but the newcomers to the genre as well, and it's SO FUCKING AMAZING. Props to Mane6.
Them's Fightin' Herds has the most combo variety out of any game I've played (admittedly not a huge number). The fact that I can play another player using the same character and get caught by completely different combo routes is amazing to me. If you're reading this PLEASE PLAY IT IT'S SO GOOD AND IT HAS PERFECT NETCODE AND AMAZING LOBBIES on top of the previously mentioned combo variety.
@@notkendall5323 I really like Skullgirls but I still only play offline because I get beaten to death by an infinite combo each and every time I try online
We are sworn enemies and this is why: Combos in Smash require an extra layer of awareness, one not seen in other fighters, but everyone knows that, percent blah blah blah. But it feels amazing af when you just start freestyling, with movement through the air is way less restricted than other fighters. Something about mashing up airs on your opponent with Mario, or just starting to rush in by throwing out back airs as DK feels so free.
Smash combos are weird because the person getting comboed has so much influence over the combo. That can make them feel really random and unrewarding when someone with good DI prevents you from doing damage and amazing when you can still kick their ass in spite of that. A good smash combo will have you making the Kira "keikaku doori" face for the entire match.
@@maagic2031 It becomes so fun when you're adapting to your opponent's DI. In Smash, combos aren't a singleplayer minigame where the other player waits for you to mess up. Rather, they are a dynamic dance
If the opponent has that much control over your combo it kind of starts feeling like less of a combo anymore. Hell it's one of the reasons I've never got super into Smash, I just can't enjoy the fact I'm gonna spend such and such amount of time making a combo only to take it online and have it ruined by a marginally different character weight, percentage or DI. Because of that I just play neutral and have never bothered with combos.
@@grimms8783 Honestly, I'm nothing special at Smash, and seldom do I practice combos in training mode. But like I said, it's more about knowing your moves and getting a feel for everything, not muscle memory(sometimes). Because so many combos you see aren't even true, they are just reading/reacting to an opponent's escape option, or just getting some lucky guesses. You should know some bnb combos to start out, but as you get better you'll build off of them.
@@grimms8783 that's the fun part - you always have more to learn! Putting in time to learn a combo and thinking about all the diff kinds of defensive options the opponent has at their disposal to keep it going makes your punish game progressively stronger; taking DI, SDI, stage position and platform extensions into consideration can make Smash combo routes super deep and complex in a way that is pretty uncommon in fighting games imo
I love Rivals Of Aether. I'm not always the best at smash but the fundamentals at least transfer. I played how i usually played and thought at first that ROA was ok. Then I actually heard about and saw the training mode. Didn't even know about wavedashing or character specific combos to use. It completely changed my way of thinking to positioning and parrying. Instead of just throwing an aerial (that could be parried and punished) I should use my wave dashing to juke my opponent and potentially get in and get out... then after playing a few hundred more hours I ACTUALLY TRIED hitfalling. Something i thought only the pros do. And I did it successfully and I THOUGHT I WAS SICK AS SHIT. Its as the man says. This new freedom I felt came cause my expectations weren't there yet. And now I have found the fighting game I'll prolly love for years. Go play those games people. Maybe try rivals or even wait for rivals 2 to come out.
I don't really see why you used KOF as an example for talking about links. They really aren't the focus of KOF's combo system, and as a matter of fact, I think most people would be surprised links even exist in KOF. You did use some footage of SFIV to talk about it, that's a game I would say is very heavily link-reliant, but I think it would have been better to use more of it when discussing links because of that fact. I just don't want people being misled about KOF and how the game structure really works
i dont really like the feeling of auto combos, i like pressing buttons and moving around, not just tapping the same button and let things go on their own, but i dont mind if theyre there, its just that i wont use them personally. now if the game forces me to use them or locks certain moves to auto combos then i'll just pass on it tbh
I don't mind games having an autocombo mode, but when they mixed technical and stylish in blazblue, i lost my shit, oh and unist seems to have the same mixed control design by default, just give us the option to turn the damn thing off. But i guess asking for that is like asking japanese devs to learn what rollback is.
@@kael070 to be fair in UNICLR, auto combos are literally just an ABC chain into special. There’s like one instance they’re actually used, and that’s when you’ve already done 5B in your block string but really wanna 5B again, so you reverse beat back and do 5AA to get 5B again. Very niche and doesn’t really add anything, but the fact auto combos have no unique moves in em means it doesn’t really take away anything either. Its just a nice addition for super beginners.
@@babytricep437 DBFZ doesn't actually rely on Auto Combos as much as people say unless you're either Bardock Teen Gohan or UI Goku. Most of the time people use auto combos when they are trying to get Shenron or as apart of a much larger combo for juggle and wall bounce. Bardock and UI Goku along with Teen Gohan are the 3 big offenders in terms of Auto Combos but people usually just use the Autos to link and cancel into a much bigger combo. DBS Broly for example mostly just uses his to Juggle and jail jumping and even then I personally just use it for loops because 2L is a harder but more rewarding option. People hate Auto Combos for making it easier but done right they actually add more depth to the combos. I mostly blame Bardock, UI Goku and Teen Gohan for the square button mash. Even Base Goku you more so use the first part of his auto combo to extend after a side switch and go into Spirit Bomb.
Great video as always! However, I think KoF XIII's trials have misguided you. Links in the KoF games are not really important, since the game is so fast and the meat of the combos is what does the damage (not to mention most lights are perfectly fine as combo starters). These games rely a lot more heavily in special-to-special canceling (specially XIII) and juggling.
Feel like you are falling into the same trap with KOF almost everyone else does, thinking it's harder than it actually is. Almost every combo I do in KOF is cancel based rather than link based. That's what I love about KOF - every character can do a Normal -> Command -> Special/SDM combo. In KOFXIII, it's even crazier, there's a whole subsystem for canceling special moves into other special moves. Like yeah, I get that the combo trials are stupid hard, but no one uses those in actual play - they're there purely to be a difficult thing to do for cheevos. Anyway, VSav has the best combos. They do damage quickly and they're over quickly, getting you back to the break-neck pace of the 1v1 neutral game. You can do a super easy combo with just chains, but there's also links if you feel like pushing your brain for extra reward.
@@starbreaker6441 Yeah, I felt like it allowed a bit more freedom due to Drive being its own separate resource, and you can do special to special without fully committing to HD activation (for a heavy cost though.) It's like how KOFXI had a separate meter for tag combos. It's nice to have multiple resources, allows for more interesting choices to make.
Blazblue central fiction is peak fighting games to me for this exact reason. I love the way things flow in that game and because of the sheer variety of characters there's bound to be something for someone.
Yeah I don't understand why so few people talk about it, there's a lot to learn and experiment, it might be hard at first but god damn it's satisfying asf
Combo Variety is one of the biggest reasons I love smash so much. The combination of movement and decision making when comboing in melee is something I've never experienced in anything else, not to metion the fact that it's a two sided combo game where the opponent has options like DI, SDI and techs to escape the combo and interact even while in hitstun
Regarding all the different names for being able to cancel normals into normals... Isn’t the universal name for that Chain Combos? At least, that’s what I learned back in the day, as it was a way to discuss the same type of combo in different games.
@@chazaqiel2319 definitely not gatling, GG was played by like 10 people back in the day, gatling is a cool word tho, so I could see people trying to use it to describe non GG stuff but links/chains are definitely more likely
@Dreamcast Spirit Target Combos are something very specific, though, as they are a pre-set series of buttons that can be cancelled into each other, and every button after the first one usually gives you unique animations that can’t be found on any of that character’s standalone buttons. Though they’re also different from Strings (which is what I was tought to call NRS/Tekken style ”pre-set button series” combos), as those buttons (usually) aren’t cancelled into each other, but rather just a ”string” of buttons where each animation plays out as the other is finished. Basically, Target Combos are Chain Combos, but not all Chain Combos are Target Combos, and while a Target Combo is a predetermined string of buttons, they are technically different from Strings, which aren’t Chain Combos. Magic Series, Gatling, Beat, Revolver Action, etc are all functionally the same thing however: a Chain Combo.
Yo, I hate to be that guy but you should play Guilty Gear Plus R cause on a super basic level, it's basically the same thing but with playable netcode, a lot of Xrd players migrated just because it feels better online
@@sushiknight7013 it's not even bad, it's just that there are so little people playing it that you always end up matching with some mf on the other side of the world, which is usually some shithole with shitty connection
@@ciroaldorisio8034 most of my connections have been mostly 5-6 frames of delay which is still kinda playable but it always jumps from like 5 frames to 7 frames then back to 5 mid match and ends making me drop my combo
Freeform combos are my favourite thing in fighting games tied with interesting movement, it allows for so much creativity and those moments where you KNOW something shouldn't work, but because your opponent wasn't expecting it it did anyways
I can confirm that even without optimal gameplay, the discovery process of combos is the fun part. I got my brother to give Strive a shot and he just went into training mode with Potemkin. Before even knowing any of the systems, he managed to get Giganter Kai > Hammerfall > Heat Knuckle to combo just by sheer force of thinking they would (and this seems to only work at a very specific distance that he happened to be on). That alone made him go "OK maybe this game is cool"
You basically summed up everything that I have ever thought ever. I’m a VF player btw and I prefer how that game does shit, combo wise in a way that’s easy to understand but has enough layer’s of complexity in the oki.
Less than one minute in, and it's already bold of you to assume that the people who think "all fighting games feel the same" are capable of even doing a combo, let alone feeling out the differences of different games' combos.
That little comparison about autocombos and the needler blew my mind, thank you for granting me the mindset to appreciate DBFZ and persona gameplay and not be afraid to use them
I was wondering the same thing. If you're confortable with a D-pad, great. If not... there's a stick on the same controller! I might be missing something here (input precision, maybe?), but the analog stick feels like the obvious choice in this scenario.
@@philcoast1031 The only game I play with the D-pad is Mortal Kombat because special move inputs are much easier with it and I keep accidentally jumping, (seriously I’ve never had this problem with other games it’s just MK) every other game I’ve played with the analog stick. With the exception of charge characters special move inputs are way harder with the D-pad for me especially 720s/1080s/1800s, (yes there’s a game with a super that requires a quintuple full circle input) I just don’t get how you’d perform any type of circle with something that has rigid edges (keep in mind all of my experiences are from using Xbox controllers). It’ll dig into your thumb if you try to do literally any kind of input in a game that isn’t MK. But there are situations where the stick just doesn’t work properly especially older fighting games where they just weren’t designed with an analog stick in mind (looking at you 30th Anniversary Edition 3rd Strike and your defective dashes).
@@Firjiwater That statement wasn’t really about what’s easier more about a stigma against using the analog stick. A good example of this is Woolie and Pat from Super Best Friends Play (rip SBFP). I don’t remember what video(s) this story was told in but or exactly what happened in it but here’s a basic version of it: As many of you may know the Xbox 360’s D-pad was god awful and everyone complained about it (especially before the transforming D-pad, genuinely one of the best thing to happen to the 360) including Woolie. But while Woolie kept complaining about the D-pad he kept using it, Pat however switched to the analog stick and Woolie looked at him like a crazy person. This has happened to me many, many times and it makes me feel like a weirdo.
Around 9:20 , maybe a bit later, you mentioned about "teaching" the player That reminded me of one game i had in SF5 where i taught a newbie to mix up his button timings because i changed to Ryu and begun to parry everything obvious (since i know i have a weakness against anti-parry mixup). You've already talked about this in one of your other videos but it just proves that a fighting game community CAN help eachother like you suggested! :3
I’ve legit been doing(and mostly failing) to do super cancels in third strike with the full double quarter circles, I had no idea there was a shortcut, that makes so much more sense
I’m so glad you discussed the stored input information thing. I first learnt about it when I had to do a low kick into a Z input, the fact you can press the kick halfway through the Z still blows my mind
Wow, you actually explained why I don't like links better than what I was thinking it. I respect Street Fighter for what it is, but damn I despise how the links system feels.
Cool video, your best one yet imo, but uhh Why, of all games, did you use KoFXIII to show that you hate links? Most of the cast in that game barely has any, and useful ones are rare compared to combos without them. It also has a buffering system for specials/supers so timing is almost never why people say KoFXIII is difficult, barring a few characters. Again, great video, but an odd choice imo.
KOFXIII isn't that hard at all, links are only really necessary when converting off of lights which usually don't lead to super strong combos anyway, the one that's actually pretty hard is 02UM which is much less lenient and lacks lots of quality of life features 13 has, like Drive mode doing an auto-run so you don't have to input a micro-dash to convert off a stray hit
@@jonnysac77 Most characters can still convert off of lights by chaining them and going to a command normal instead of linking a light into a close heavy or something, but yeah. Agreed about 02UM.
14:32 Hard agree, when I was getting into +R with my roommate when it got rollback (it was my first gear) and struggling to understand what the fuck Gatling meant. Coming from Skullgirls, I knew what cancels were, but I thought Gatling was like a special cancel unique to gear. No it’s just a normal ass cancel, that just makes no sense to players of other games.
Rather odd you use KOF as a big example for links when KOF has a much bigger focus on chain cancels than SF, and 13 has a circus' worth of juggling. Then again, I suppose I have 13's trial mode to blame for that. It includes a lot of links in combos that aren't really necessary at all.
Yeah, button to button normal links in KoF are just about always a minor optimization (completely unnecessary for most routes, in the Ryo example he could just do cl.C into qcb+D or cr.b to cr.A/standing A, then add qcb+B and call it a day) rather than something you actually need to get meaningful conversions off a given starter. Back in the day this was a big part of why I hated SF and loved KoF, since you literally need links to do anything in SFIV but in KoF they're basically just a minor tool for veterans to flex with. You'll see them occasionally used in high level play, but only incidentally as a result of the string being so advantageous in the first place that it naturally frametraps if the opponent tries to use a normal to escape between the two moves. It's literally just pressure that's easy to confirm with, not something the player is doing to maximize damage.
@@HS_Gomikubi Eeehhh, that's not really true either. Some characters have very useful links that can increase their damage by a lot. Ryo and Yuri's cr.B cr.C link for example allows them to combo into attacks that are too slow to combo from lights, but at the same time it isn't necessary to learn the ropes with them as characters because they'll ways to combo without them. Ralf's combos revolve around certain links, but most of them are ridiculously easy to hit anyway.
@@AirLancer I did not say they were useless, or that they do not result in a higher damage combo when successfully applied. I said the difference in damage isn't important enough to make them a requirement to play KoF (which is exactly what you're saying, I just used more words) and the potential damage increase isn't even the main reason competitive players go for them in _most_ cases (again, _most._ Not "all". My previous reply already elaborates on why) However, I suppose you felt it appropriate to specify that newer players can "learn the ropes" without links, where I would argue that neither casual enjoyment nor competitive success at any level requires them. If your primary goal is to win a tournament, the first step to that is picking a better team than Ryo/Yuri.
Boy I don't know what's more surprising, that I watched a 23 minute video about combos, or that there's a 23 minute video about combos that doesn't even have the briefest mention of Killer Instinct.
"All fighters feel the same" is such a funny and stupid quote as someone who has played only 3 fighters, where one feels amazing ( Skullgirls ), one feels clunky ( Them's Fightin' Herds ), and one is complicated but smooth ( Guilty Gear ) and this is just *my* experience
A Leon Massey video without sarcasm or a guilty gear refferance would be like going to your grandmas house and she doesn't even ask if you're hungry or offer you any biscuits.
I do slightly disagree about calling all normal cancel systems just "cancels". Being able to tell immediately what *type* of cancel system it is is quite useful, and "light into medium into heavy into drive cancels" is just a mouthful. Especially with Reverse beat, where the alternative is particularly too long yet providing little to the player. For a new player it might not be terribly useful to hear "magic series", but it also isnt something they need to know exactly.
All I know reverse beat is, is instead of going light, medium heavy, you can go heavy, light, medium for example. In other words "combo structure, what's that?", though that's probably wrong.
@@grimms8783 you aren't far off. Reverse Beat is any normal cancel from a heavier move to a lighter one(H->M,M->L, or the forbidden H->M->L) It's in Melty Blood and UnderNight
@@joelsmemes4140 Ah, well that's what I meant I probably just didn't make it come across right, I mainly know reverse beat because in DBFZ level 7 Gohan can do it, and Frieza when he does his Golden Frieza install can do the same thing, though they're the only characters capable of doing it to that level, some other characters have limited reverse beat abilities like Vegito.
A casual player thats been using auto-combos is discouraged from experimenting with real combos because as soon as they actually put in a little effort theyre gonna be effectively punished, with less damage or drops (assuming theyre experimenting while casually playing, not in training mode)
Melee's combo system fits neatly into the juggle system, but it's a lot more improvised because how far your enemy gets knocked back is constantly increasing as you keep on damaging them. So a BnB combo will only be true between a particular damage threshold, and after that you need to predict where your enemy will end up after the first hit based on damage % and guessing their DI or which direction they're mostly likely to tech after landing. Still has the same satisfying feeling of constantly juggling your opponent though.
This video popped into my recommended and gained you a new subscriber, as well as a new perspective on combos in fighters in general. As a grappler main I'm used to looking for and learning the breaks in combos but never really learning more complex combos than heavy into command grab basically.
@@FlameEcho Spectacle Fighter is a better term actually, I hear both thrown around since everyone seems to unamimously agree that 'action' as a genre means nothing on its own lol
Time to talk about Soku! In Soku, you can cancel lights (most attacks that use the singular melee button) into command normals (same button plus a direction), either of those into any light bullet (button 2) and melees or light bullets into any heavy bullet (button 3) and any of those into specials (motion inputs). And anything into supers (all meter is 1 button to activate but has other complexities too long to mention). You can also jump or airdash cancel any projectile move, including many specials, so the combo system allows for a lot of freedom. In terms of infinite prevention it has an airtech system where combos drop earlier the longer the combo goes on, but rather than requiring the opponent to airtech, they gain invul the moment they are able to airtech, regardless of wether they do. It also has a “limit” system where moves fill a different percentage of “limit” and when the opponent reaches 100% or more, the combo ends, but you get knockdown and oki, so it is almost always the goal to combo until you limit.
I liked ur video a lot, it would be interesting for you to take a deep dive into the combo systems of KI or Melee, especially the latter since it's the deepest but also one that isn't too complex for people to undesrtand.
I think my favorite part of doing combos is when you get to do all of these different techniques. Like something as simple as Guile Jump HK, Stand HP, Crouch MP, Sonic Boom, Sonic Hurricane. Within this combo, there’s a jump in, a link, a cancel, and a super cancel, and it can feel so satisfying to pull off.
I can't believe this man just skipped over the Alpha series like Capcom didn't figure out combos until 3s. Custom combo anyone? The Vs games were out first! I'm pretty sure they had a handle on all kinds of combos by then.
That’s probably just lack of playtime, Leon probably hasn’t played the alpha 3s also it didn’t fit his video as custom combos didn’t fit with the links part in his video
For real though Smash Combos just feel nice. Its also kind of shame that you didn't have any room to even discuss none execution based expression, like combo choices for damage vs harder knockdown vs meter gain vs stage position vs resets.
Honey, Leon's talking about Gear again
Ooh, make some space under the blanket for me and I'll get the popcorn!
Wake up honey, new Leon video
@Kayden McCallum Oh *yes*
thanks babe
I was literally gonna make this joke but the joke's on YOU because I can actually subject my wife to this video
I didn't expect a guy in the fighting game community to tell me exactly why I'm so addicted to Minecraft but here we are
What (Sry didn't rly get it)
@@Mil3o Freedom. When you are told one thing and it leads to the discovery that, well, if that works what about all this other 8th level stuff? That's satisfying, and precisely what I feel playing modded Minecraft
I like how he uses other games as references to fighting games, it helps players feel like fighting games aren't totally alien to them
@@DoomRater Ah got it. Tho I rly needed the context that it was that part
i think its defrent, minecraft is about the building blocks, and slowly changeing your place or places
also moded minecraft is an eazy to make task simulator and you should stop playing them
Sometimes when I use totsugeki I press both S and HS and let god decide
I need to do this now
Doesn’t it prioritize the S dolphin?
@@happycamperds9917 Yes. When pressing multiple buttons on the same frame Strive will prioritize the "lowest" input, e.g. holding P K S and HS will result in P coming out.
@@happycamperds9917 depends on how you press it, might press HS first on accident
You’re mad. Respect.
My absolute favourite stage of learning any fighting game is when the fundamental structure and idea of the game's combo system clicks in your brain and you're able to adjust and alter your combos on the fly because that inate knowledge of "oh this will work here" is just there in your brain
You could be presented with a 1 in a million scenario you've never seen before and convert it into a combo because you understand the combo system at that base level
This is the level of comfort that makes me addicted to certain games and characters. When I can finally quit worrying about how to do certain actions, and instead think "Huh, this might be cool" and just do it. It's an incredible feeling.
It clicked fast for me with Chipp. I convert off stray air alpha blades and everything now.
If you want an in-depth combo system, try Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. It might seem basic at first, but cross combos and active switch give a lot of freedom in team comps and combos.
I have MK11 Kabal combo in my channel that was the direct result of what you just said. But too bad combos like that only involves krushing blows which is why I gave up on the game quickly.
I agree, NotLuigi, Guilty Gear (pre-Strive) has sick combos.
Can't wait to hear how he works his favorite character Venom into this one!
Dude, you are the most hardcore causal fighting game fan I have ever seen.
This man could talk about milk for 20 minutes and make it entertaining.
we need the leon massey video on milk now
My headcanon is that leon massey is just Theoryfighter time travelling to a younger body so monke brain go bwuah
I want him to talk about milk for 20 minutes
Alright so just imagine his voice:
Milk is a nutrient-rich liquid food produced by the mammary glands of mammals, like cows, goats, and humans if you’re into that kinda thing.
But for real milk is unsurprising a pretty healthy drink, when it comes to bones and hydration and.. probably some other stuff I haven’t been able to research.
What I can tell you though, is that it’s pretty good. Even on it’s own.
But if you want to spice it up you should know milk is fundamental to drinks like Coffee and Tea and everything in between.
And if you only like those drinks without milk I’m sorry but you should really consider seeing a therapist because if psychopathic tendencies like that are left unchecked I’d be worried about your future.
@@sufferingmp4102 Fine I'll bite. "Did you know... it's actually a mutant power? Believe it or not (and frankly I refuse to) humans had to evolve to drink milk as adults and that's strangely not the case for most mammals"
The comparison of autocombos to the needler actually blew my mind. That’s a really good way to advocate for it.
IM FIRST ME ME ME IM FIRST EVERYONE ELSE GET CLOWNED ON
Cool, but when’s the Strive Review, LEON.
damnit..i'm typing what i typed before...
TFW you're not first on your own video lmao
Damn he's good
i hear normal cancels more universally just called chains. infact thats what the skullgirls community actually calls them, cancels are far to vague.
Muh gatlings
@@Chuckdezzy7 what does this mean
@@eyitsaperson its what guilty gear calls them
@@junidaydreamer it’s also what Rivals of Aether calls them for some reason? (Possibly only referring to when dash attack cancels into ustrong)
I think we should call them “when the moves combo together, not a link but a cancel, but not a special cancel, they’re all normals, a normal cancel, and you have to press the buttons in order, like left to right or right to left usually?”
"Doing motion inputs on a pad feels eldritch"
Me who has only played fighting games on pads and mains Grapplers l8ke daimon:
"Maybe I am an eldritch being"
Personally playing on stick feels awful, I need the control a D-Pad gives or I can't play.
Me who plays street fighter 2 on snes controller: I'm the disgusting Frankenstein
Yeah I'm the same way, dpad players rise up. I feel like I have less control with stick
I litterally started using arcade sticks cause I can't do pot buster on pad
WE ARE LEGION
Combos are also a way we express individuality in a fighting game, much like deckbuilding or team comps in other game genres. Combos and our combo choice let's us show who we are with our gameplay and differentiate us from everyone else that plays the same character.
And then all mains do the same ToD combo in every tournament
The fact he use KOF as an example for links makes me sad. People really don't know anything about how those games were played. They were very cancel heavy: 2 lights / Proximity Heavy > Command Normal > Special was how almost everything worked unless it was a max combo (kind of like Strive. Why they decided to use the system from the other "too hard for newcomers" game I'll never know). Any KOF player will tell you that. Only 13 and to a lesser extent 14 were link heavy and it's one of the reasons 13 wasn't received very well by the old heads. People who like 13 a lot generally played it as their first KOF.
I too was quite saddened by the way Leon treats KoF in this video... But I'm also very confused by your claim that XIII was somehow "link heavy" in comparison to older games, or that this correlates to being part of the reason it wasn't well received by certain groups within the fanbase. It sounds like the kind of excuse people who care more about shitting on the Capcom crowd than actually playing good FGs would have made at the time, which may well have been a thing in 2011 but I suppose I wouldn't know since I didn't personally end up being involved until 2013.
I mean, I know there _were_ links in XIII, but even if they could be considered more common there than in older titles it's not as if anyone _needed_ them to do basic bnbs.
This; Kof is the least link heavy series ever. It's more of a precursor to chaining normals, because you mainly just cancel 3 attacks together
Yeah maybe you can't link Ryo's normals in KoF and you hate links because KoF DOESNT USE LINKS LEON
leon doesnt have any idea what hes talking about?? thats new
It kind of confused me as well because the only experience i have with kof is trying to cancel lights into eachother for a combo and not doing it fast enough
What was with that guy yelling about Persona? Weird...
What a weirdo...
Very strange
I think he was suggesting blocking
Tru
Didn't expect the moopoke cameo!
yeah that was weird
@@Milpy this guy is everywhere
It was honestly so cool
3:08 this man over here thinking these types of combos are needed to be good at KOF.
I feel like it’s generally over all better for hits to have hit-stop as it makes combos feel more weighted as well as making it easier to asses what’s happening.
I agree.
Now try to explain that to a Netherrealm enthusiast
Hit stop is such a subtle thing I didn’t notice before but now I notice it everywhere. It’s a super easy and really useful technique to subtly sell the impact of a hit and help with hit confirming.
Hit-stop is a mechanic in fighting games and most other games in general that is often taken for granted, if it's even noticed at all.
@Awawawa CM As long as there's actually feedback to you hitting someone it tends to make monkey brain happy and feel better.
Hit stop makes hit confirming so much easier to my brain
"Try and find a combo system for you! Maybe you did and it's Smash-" Huh, that's a weird way to spell Rivals of Aether.
In all seriousness, great video and some of things here definitely needed to be said, mainly you don't NEED to go for the big combos, been saying that for a while and I'm glad someone agrees.
rivals hitfalling is so damn awesome feeling jesus christ does a tradfighter have a hitfall equivalent
Yeah man that was a weird autocorrection
@@xanious3759 'Tradfighter' sounds like some kind of slur I don't know why.
@@Y00bi fitting seeing as a lot of fgc peeps still refuse to acknowledge the existence of Platform Fighters as competitive Fighting Games
But no we really do need a better name for that, 2D just isn't quite right and traditional, like you said, feels really strange and sometimes like an insult
@@keysmash_roa ehh i dont really think "traditional fighting game" sounds mean, its just an apt description.
This wasn't about what I expected it to be about.
This seems more about Combo Systems than Combo Variety. I thought this was going to be about exploring the benefits of choosing your different combo trees throughout all games that have combos.
Still satisfied with what I watched, good video. I started to zone out after halfway but that's because it's late and I was trying to figure out/mentally create my ideal fighting game.
For me, combos are satisfying when I can land them. As soon as it feels like it should be a given that I nail a combo, then I'm only left with disappointment if I fail it and no satisfaction if I get it.
What I get satisfaction from consistently is reading and counterplaying what I expect my opponent is going to do. Which is why I'm somewhat fond of Pokken. Though this video helped me realize its combos are lacking.
I think it's important that combos aren't cutscenes and/or that the one being combo'd still has something they can do during the combo to counterplay it. And that likewise the one performing the combo can account for specific counterplays the one being combo'd can go for.
So what I'm saying is that Smash Ultimate is almost my ideal of a fighting game and we're sworn enemies.
I'll be lookin' around to see if there's other videos of yours I'm interested in.
Devil's advocate for Autocombo haters, they're a complete nightmare in DBFZ because their hitboxes and framedata are silly, they autocorrect side switches for you easily, and they make most confirms almost impossible to drop
Auto combos are fine in Xrd, Granblue and Darkstalkers because you need to win the neutral legit and there's always a break where you need to win neutral again to keep your gorilla pressure. You can't just guitar hero your way into a ToD like in most vs games.
I just like being able to spam jab without going into a string
As a DBFZ player, these personally feel like a mainly DBFZ issue, if turning around mid-autocombo got removed it'd make the game already dozens of times better and more punishing for people who crutch on autocombos like that.
@@Stroggoii here's the thing, those are the cancel systems he discussed, not auto combos. An auto combo is made up of one input pressed repeatedly, usually
@@keysmash_roa except the game literally calls them auto combos and that a huge factor of whether a character in dbfz is good is their auto combo
This man straight up went out and said; "your crying about the Needler from Halo."
Auto combos were *the* thing that allowed my friends who've never played fighting games to have fun in Xrd, and not anything that Strive tried. If anything Strive made the game *harder* to understand for me.
If anything Strive looks like they took DBFZ nerfed the combo variety and made the game so aggressive that the Neutral just doesn't exist for some characters. If anything the game is actually less newcomer friendly than before due to being so much more aggressive and it makes it difficult to learn any of the bigger tricks to the Neutral Game.
I started in xrd but I’m a bedman main so strive is my bread and butter lol
I just wanted to say that Leon has a really solid grasp on game design and is quite adept at conveying the important information to his point. Sounds easy, but it can be tricky to not get bogged down
@Kayden McCallum ^ exactly this. leon makes long videos with classic youtube tropes blended in (slight background music, generic editing, random humor) but most of his arguments are either just false or very misinformed.
He is very casual and not super into anything but GG. But he's funny, and you're more willing to accept people you like in positions of authority, so you perceive him as more capable than he is.
What matters is that he's a good entertainer.
@@eoeaoe12e long videos? Most of his videos besides this one are 15 minutes or below and good editing isn’t a trope that’s like saying a movie having good directing and good camera work is a trope
@@Stroggoii Definitely entertaining, but I hold my point. What really keyed me in was his bringing the button mashing problem full circle, from the 3D point of view. That’s not exactly surface level stuff, and to make it funny as well? Being funny is probably more subjective, but his points on game design hold water.
The only thing i think he got wrong in this video is on kof combos
I don't even play fighting games, but I love the passion Leon have on this.
Obbligatory "you should try one" response, check
Play them now
ive been watching leons videos for over a year, and only picked up my first fighting game when a friend bought me strive lmao
@@japeape8381 rich friend
Introduce me to him
I watched to 9:32 before I had to have a good hard look at my long suffering PS4 controller I've been playing GGST with. The dpad has probably lost a centimeter of material just from trying to do one BNB on Nago, and I'm still considering replacing my left thumb to avoid buying a fightstick like a real human being.
To be fair, the d-pad is a lot faster to use (and potentially more accurate, depending on the stick's gate) than an arcade joystick. Pad players have probably been more successful in tournaments than stick players.
If you want something ergonomic that gets you an advantage (at the cost of losing a lifetime's worth of muscle memory), hitbox-style controllers are where it's at, not sticks.
Well..... I use keyboard
@@someindoguyyoudontneedtokn9007 practically a hitbox, you're chilling
You might wanna look into a pad with the kind of D-pad that doesn't destroy your thumb. It's probably gonna need a lot adjustment to get used to though, but it's still easier than stick or hitbox/keyboard where you have to completely relearn your muscle memory.
See Maximillian Dood's video "Do I need an arcade stick?"
0:25
If you look at me straight the eye and you tell me that guilty gear strive and street fighter V feel exactky the same, you will find a bullet in your cranium in approximately 17 frames.
They feel the same to people who can't get past the difficult skill floor that's janky, have a smoother skill floor and people will be able to tell the difference a lot more.
I just wanted to say that this video was EXACTLY what I've been looking for recently. Not only as a player, but as a solo indie dev.
I love fighting games because of the characters, style and silly stories, but I could never get into it properly, I actually never understood how to do commands and combos. And recently, I've been very inspired to make a fighting game (a more casual-ish one at best), but it didn't matter what keywords I used, I couldn't find exactly what I've been missing in the genre. I didn't even find you with this video.
And I didn't know that SF's combos were that simple (conceptually, at least, execution is another beast) and that's why I actually believe they were not intentional.
Anyway, thank you so much for this in-depth talk and insight about this genre, it genuinely helped me a LOT.
...but no seriously can we talk about how the pony game does everything right and nobody talks about it
to make it actually related to the video, every character has the exact same basic bnb available, learn it once and you can now forget about basic functioning and focus on exploring individual tools, I love it
Yeah, the pony game(much as so many "big boy" fgc members dread to admit) actually nails it excellently and makes itself available not only to the long-time vets, but the newcomers to the genre as well, and it's SO FUCKING AMAZING. Props to Mane6.
Them's Fightin' Herds has the most combo variety out of any game I've played (admittedly not a huge number). The fact that I can play another player using the same character and get caught by completely different combo routes is amazing to me. If you're reading this PLEASE PLAY IT IT'S SO GOOD AND IT HAS PERFECT NETCODE AND AMAZING LOBBIES on top of the previously mentioned combo variety.
Skullgirls is also like this, people NEED to play the smaller fighting games
@@notkendall5323 Here's hoping for Skullgirls third wind now that it's a main game at Evo
@@jazzerthighs8842 combo variety?
@@Hattori75 seems like it, it’s rather easy to find players online now
@@notkendall5323 I really like Skullgirls but I still only play offline because I get beaten to death by an infinite combo each and every time I try online
21:59 This had me crying laughing. "Why is my character punching like a deflated Micheline Man." LMAO
We are sworn enemies and this is why:
Combos in Smash require an extra layer of awareness, one not seen in other fighters, but everyone knows that, percent blah blah blah. But it feels amazing af when you just start freestyling, with movement through the air is way less restricted than other fighters. Something about mashing up airs on your opponent with Mario, or just starting to rush in by throwing out back airs as DK feels so free.
Smash combos are weird because the person getting comboed has so much influence over the combo. That can make them feel really random and unrewarding when someone with good DI prevents you from doing damage and amazing when you can still kick their ass in spite of that. A good smash combo will have you making the Kira "keikaku doori" face for the entire match.
@@maagic2031 It becomes so fun when you're adapting to your opponent's DI. In Smash, combos aren't a singleplayer minigame where the other player waits for you to mess up. Rather, they are a dynamic dance
If the opponent has that much control over your combo it kind of starts feeling like less of a combo anymore. Hell it's one of the reasons I've never got super into Smash, I just can't enjoy the fact I'm gonna spend such and such amount of time making a combo only to take it online and have it ruined by a marginally different character weight, percentage or DI. Because of that I just play neutral and have never bothered with combos.
@@grimms8783 Honestly, I'm nothing special at Smash, and seldom do I practice combos in training mode. But like I said, it's more about knowing your moves and getting a feel for everything, not muscle memory(sometimes). Because so many combos you see aren't even true, they are just reading/reacting to an opponent's escape option, or just getting some lucky guesses. You should know some bnb combos to start out, but as you get better you'll build off of them.
@@grimms8783 that's the fun part - you always have more to learn! Putting in time to learn a combo and thinking about all the diff kinds of defensive options the opponent has at their disposal to keep it going makes your punish game progressively stronger; taking DI, SDI, stage position and platform extensions into consideration can make Smash combo routes super deep and complex in a way that is pretty uncommon in fighting games imo
I love Rivals Of Aether. I'm not always the best at smash but the fundamentals at least transfer. I played how i usually played and thought at first that ROA was ok. Then I actually heard about and saw the training mode. Didn't even know about wavedashing or character specific combos to use. It completely changed my way of thinking to positioning and parrying. Instead of just throwing an aerial (that could be parried and punished) I should use my wave dashing to juke my opponent and potentially get in and get out... then after playing a few hundred more hours I ACTUALLY TRIED hitfalling. Something i thought only the pros do. And I did it successfully and I THOUGHT I WAS SICK AS SHIT.
Its as the man says. This new freedom I felt came cause my expectations weren't there yet. And now I have found the fighting game I'll prolly love for years.
Go play those games people. Maybe try rivals or even wait for rivals 2 to come out.
13 seconds Leon Massey yes
1 minute Leon Massey lets go
20 minutes Leon Massey woo
I don't really see why you used KOF as an example for talking about links. They really aren't the focus of KOF's combo system, and as a matter of fact, I think most people would be surprised links even exist in KOF. You did use some footage of SFIV to talk about it, that's a game I would say is very heavily link-reliant, but I think it would have been better to use more of it when discussing links because of that fact. I just don't want people being misled about KOF and how the game structure really works
THANK YOU !
i dont really like the feeling of auto combos, i like pressing buttons and moving around, not just tapping the same button and let things go on their own, but i dont mind if theyre there, its just that i wont use them personally.
now if the game forces me to use them or locks certain moves to auto combos then i'll just pass on it tbh
I don't mind games having an autocombo mode, but when they mixed technical and stylish in blazblue, i lost my shit, oh and unist seems to have the same mixed control design by default, just give us the option to turn the damn thing off.
But i guess asking for that is like asking japanese devs to learn what rollback is.
@@kael070 to be fair in UNICLR, auto combos are literally just an ABC chain into special.
There’s like one instance they’re actually used, and that’s when you’ve already done 5B in your block string but really wanna 5B again, so you reverse beat back and do 5AA to get 5B again.
Very niche and doesn’t really add anything, but the fact auto combos have no unique moves in em means it doesn’t really take away anything either. Its just a nice addition for super beginners.
Like shit dbfz
@@babytricep437 DBFZ doesn't actually rely on Auto Combos as much as people say unless you're either Bardock Teen Gohan or UI Goku. Most of the time people use auto combos when they are trying to get Shenron or as apart of a much larger combo for juggle and wall bounce. Bardock and UI Goku along with Teen Gohan are the 3 big offenders in terms of Auto Combos but people usually just use the Autos to link and cancel into a much bigger combo.
DBS Broly for example mostly just uses his to Juggle and jail jumping and even then I personally just use it for loops because 2L is a harder but more rewarding option. People hate Auto Combos for making it easier but done right they actually add more depth to the combos. I mostly blame Bardock, UI Goku and Teen Gohan for the square button mash. Even Base Goku you more so use the first part of his auto combo to extend after a side switch and go into Spirit Bomb.
Great video as always!
However, I think KoF XIII's trials have misguided you. Links in the KoF games are not really important, since the game is so fast and the meat of the combos is what does the damage (not to mention most lights are perfectly fine as combo starters). These games rely a lot more heavily in special-to-special canceling (specially XIII) and juggling.
The concept of cancelling a special to go into another one sounds so raw, low-key makes me want to play it
Feel like you are falling into the same trap with KOF almost everyone else does, thinking it's harder than it actually is. Almost every combo I do in KOF is cancel based rather than link based. That's what I love about KOF - every character can do a Normal -> Command -> Special/SDM combo. In KOFXIII, it's even crazier, there's a whole subsystem for canceling special moves into other special moves. Like yeah, I get that the combo trials are stupid hard, but no one uses those in actual play - they're there purely to be a difficult thing to do for cheevos.
Anyway, VSav has the best combos. They do damage quickly and they're over quickly, getting you back to the break-neck pace of the 1v1 neutral game. You can do a super easy combo with just chains, but there's also links if you feel like pushing your brain for extra reward.
@@starbreaker6441 Yeah, I felt like it allowed a bit more freedom due to Drive being its own separate resource, and you can do special to special without fully committing to HD activation (for a heavy cost though.)
It's like how KOFXI had a separate meter for tag combos. It's nice to have multiple resources, allows for more interesting choices to make.
@@WraxTV they had a separate meter just for tag team? Could someone play with just one character vs a team
@@lavellelee5734 There was a second meter specifically for canceling a move into tagging in your character, you still have to pick 3 characters.
Blazblue central fiction is peak fighting games to me for this exact reason. I love the way things flow in that game and because of the sheer variety of characters there's bound to be something for someone.
My favourite too, and really underrated anime fighting game
Yeah I don't understand why so few people talk about it, there's a lot to learn and experiment, it might be hard at first but god damn it's satisfying asf
Combo Variety is one of the biggest reasons I love smash so much. The combination of movement and decision making when comboing in melee is something I've never experienced in anything else, not to metion the fact that it's a two sided combo game where the opponent has options like DI, SDI and techs to escape the combo and interact even while in hitstun
I absolutely love the combo system for street fighter x tekken which uses chains, links and tag mechanics. Lars and Julia were such a joy to play.
The quality on your vids has only been growing in quality, spectacular vid leon
Regarding all the different names for being able to cancel normals into normals... Isn’t the universal name for that Chain Combos?
At least, that’s what I learned back in the day, as it was a way to discuss the same type of combo in different games.
I thought the official name was Gatling. Huh.
@@chazaqiel2319 definitely not gatling, GG was played by like 10 people back in the day, gatling is a cool word tho, so I could see people trying to use it to describe non GG stuff but links/chains are definitely more likely
Magic series, chain combos, Gatling or target combos depending on game
I learned the term Magic Chain, so I can assure you, everyone learned something different.
@Dreamcast Spirit Target Combos are something very specific, though, as they are a pre-set series of buttons that can be cancelled into each other, and every button after the first one usually gives you unique animations that can’t be found on any of that character’s standalone buttons. Though they’re also different from Strings (which is what I was tought to call NRS/Tekken style ”pre-set button series” combos), as those buttons (usually) aren’t cancelled into each other, but rather just a ”string” of buttons where each animation plays out as the other is finished.
Basically, Target Combos are Chain Combos, but not all Chain Combos are Target Combos, and while a Target Combo is a predetermined string of buttons, they are technically different from Strings, which aren’t Chain Combos.
Magic Series, Gatling, Beat, Revolver Action, etc are all functionally the same thing however: a Chain Combo.
THIS IS EXACTLY THE VIDEO I WANTED! TELL ME FUNNY INTERNET MEMER! WHY DO SKULLGIRLS COMBOS LOOK SO COOL???
Just picked up xrd and I now understand stand why so many people love that game to death even if the online is bad
Yo, I hate to be that guy but you should play Guilty Gear Plus R cause on a super basic level, it's basically the same thing but with playable netcode, a lot of Xrd players migrated just because it feels better online
@@jonnysac77 I have played plus r before super fun I started playing when it got rollback but I only now just got xrd
@@sushiknight7013 it's not even bad, it's just that there are so little people playing it that you always end up matching with some mf on the other side of the world, which is usually some shithole with shitty connection
@@ciroaldorisio8034 most of my connections have been mostly 5-6 frames of delay which is still kinda playable but it always jumps from like 5 frames to 7 frames then back to 5 mid match and ends making me drop my combo
@@sushiknight7013 yeah i know the feel, i still have nightmares about playing against a leo with bad connection
13:21: says "End Lag".
Proceeds to complain about similar systems having different names in other fighting games.
Freeform combos are my favourite thing in fighting games tied with interesting movement, it allows for so much creativity and those moments where you KNOW something shouldn't work, but because your opponent wasn't expecting it it did anyways
he mentioned devil may cry, he's definitely fighting game Charlie!
I can confirm that even without optimal gameplay, the discovery process of combos is the fun part. I got my brother to give Strive a shot and he just went into training mode with Potemkin. Before even knowing any of the systems, he managed to get Giganter Kai > Hammerfall > Heat Knuckle to combo just by sheer force of thinking they would (and this seems to only work at a very specific distance that he happened to be on).
That alone made him go "OK maybe this game is cool"
You basically summed up everything that I have ever thought ever. I’m a VF player btw and I prefer how that game does shit, combo wise in a way that’s easy to understand but has enough layer’s of complexity in the oki.
"Where is the Strive review Leon?" They just introduced your favorite character there!
I saw that PR combo and actually went “oh hey I’ve actually done that!” Felt pretty good ngl
Less than one minute in, and it's already bold of you to assume that the people who think "all fighting games feel the same" are capable of even doing a combo, let alone feeling out the differences of different games' combos.
14:15 Small correction: The term reverse beat refers to when you cancel a normal into a lighter one, Melty Blood uses the term 'Beat Edge" :/
That little comparison about autocombos and the needler blew my mind, thank you for granting me the mindset to appreciate DBFZ and persona gameplay and not be afraid to use them
9:26 I not only play fighting games on a pad I use the analog stick instead of the d-pad. Am I some sort of god or a masochist?
I tried using the pad and hated every second of it. I much prefer the analog stick too
I was wondering the same thing. If you're confortable with a D-pad, great. If not... there's a stick on the same controller!
I might be missing something here (input precision, maybe?), but the analog stick feels like the obvious choice in this scenario.
Using the D-pad IS the issue. I used to have trouble dashing and would always use it but its too slow. Once you get used to using the stick its fine
@@philcoast1031 The only game I play with the D-pad is Mortal Kombat because special move inputs are much easier with it and I keep accidentally jumping, (seriously I’ve never had this problem with other games it’s just MK) every other game I’ve played with the analog stick. With the exception of charge characters special move inputs are way harder with the D-pad for me especially 720s/1080s/1800s, (yes there’s a game with a super that requires a quintuple full circle input) I just don’t get how you’d perform any type of circle with something that has rigid edges (keep in mind all of my experiences are from using Xbox controllers). It’ll dig into your thumb if you try to do literally any kind of input in a game that isn’t MK. But there are situations where the stick just doesn’t work properly especially older fighting games where they just weren’t designed with an analog stick in mind (looking at you 30th Anniversary Edition 3rd Strike and your defective dashes).
@@Firjiwater That statement wasn’t really about what’s easier more about a stigma against using the analog stick. A good example of this is Woolie and Pat from Super Best Friends Play (rip SBFP). I don’t remember what video(s) this story was told in but or exactly what happened in it but here’s a basic version of it: As many of you may know the Xbox 360’s D-pad was god awful and everyone complained about it (especially before the transforming D-pad, genuinely one of the best thing to happen to the 360) including Woolie. But while Woolie kept complaining about the D-pad he kept using it, Pat however switched to the analog stick and Woolie looked at him like a crazy person. This has happened to me many, many times and it makes me feel like a weirdo.
13:44 That's probably the smartest way of going about hiding the names of other players
"thanks to whoever didn't take out the combos in games because its what gives a game some meat"
I'm looking at you brawl.
Perfect video for me, has two of my favorite things: Cool an fun Combos and ULTRAKILL
lmao I was looking for that comment
Around 9:20 , maybe a bit later, you mentioned about "teaching" the player
That reminded me of one game i had in SF5 where i taught a newbie to mix up his button timings because i changed to Ryu and begun to parry everything obvious (since i know i have a weakness against anti-parry mixup). You've already talked about this in one of your other videos but it just proves that a fighting game community CAN help eachother like you suggested! :3
"Billionaire"
"Edible"
Subtle, yet based, perfect.
cringe*
@@hrgrhrhhr what’s so “cringe” about it
@@hrgrhrhhr your boots, sir
@@LordDio I like you
@@RycoreXIII 😳
I’ve legit been doing(and mostly failing) to do super cancels in third strike with the full double quarter circles, I had no idea there was a shortcut, that makes so much more sense
22:55 Leon, this is pure art.
I have no idea how you can go so in depth into fighting game components while making it easily understandable. Good work
after 6 years I finally found out after +R getting rollback that guilty gear is my shit
13:00 I think Leon took that whole "Eat the Rich" thing a bit too seriously.
The 12:51 eat the rich reference was savage
“Doing motion inputs on a pad feels eldritch”
Me with 2000 hours in dragon ball fighterz ONLY using the dpad on an Xbox controller
Every time moopoke shows up in someone else's fighting game content, my day is made
I’m so glad you discussed the stored input information thing.
I first learnt about it when I had to do a low kick into a Z input, the fact you can press the kick halfway through the Z still blows my mind
Where's that STRIVE review, LEON!?
Wow, you actually explained why I don't like links better than what I was thinking it. I respect Street Fighter for what it is, but damn I despise how the links system feels.
@Kayden McCallum not really just preference
Cool video, your best one yet imo, but uhh
Why, of all games, did you use KoFXIII to show that you hate links? Most of the cast in that game barely has any, and useful ones are rare compared to combos without them. It also has a buffering system for specials/supers so timing is almost never why people say KoFXIII is difficult, barring a few characters.
Again, great video, but an odd choice imo.
KOFXIII isn't that hard at all, links are only really necessary when converting off of lights which usually don't lead to super strong combos anyway, the one that's actually pretty hard is 02UM which is much less lenient and lacks lots of quality of life features 13 has, like Drive mode doing an auto-run so you don't have to input a micro-dash to convert off a stray hit
@@jonnysac77 Most characters can still convert off of lights by chaining them and going to a command normal instead of linking a light into a close heavy or something, but yeah.
Agreed about 02UM.
Now I know why I like strive so much. I've achieved intentionality faster than any other fighting game I've played
14:32
Hard agree, when I was getting into +R with my roommate when it got rollback (it was my first gear) and struggling to understand what the fuck Gatling meant. Coming from Skullgirls, I knew what cancels were, but I thought Gatling was like a special cancel unique to gear. No it’s just a normal ass cancel, that just makes no sense to players of other games.
Same
Also SKULLGIRLS FOREVER
That needle comparison was perfect, loved the video
Rather odd you use KOF as a big example for links when KOF has a much bigger focus on chain cancels than SF, and 13 has a circus' worth of juggling.
Then again, I suppose I have 13's trial mode to blame for that. It includes a lot of links in combos that aren't really necessary at all.
Yeah, button to button normal links in KoF are just about always a minor optimization (completely unnecessary for most routes, in the Ryo example he could just do cl.C into qcb+D or cr.b to cr.A/standing A, then add qcb+B and call it a day) rather than something you actually need to get meaningful conversions off a given starter. Back in the day this was a big part of why I hated SF and loved KoF, since you literally need links to do anything in SFIV but in KoF they're basically just a minor tool for veterans to flex with. You'll see them occasionally used in high level play, but only incidentally as a result of the string being so advantageous in the first place that it naturally frametraps if the opponent tries to use a normal to escape between the two moves. It's literally just pressure that's easy to confirm with, not something the player is doing to maximize damage.
@@HS_Gomikubi Eeehhh, that's not really true either. Some characters have very useful links that can increase their damage by a lot. Ryo and Yuri's cr.B cr.C link for example allows them to combo into attacks that are too slow to combo from lights, but at the same time it isn't necessary to learn the ropes with them as characters because they'll ways to combo without them. Ralf's combos revolve around certain links, but most of them are ridiculously easy to hit anyway.
@@AirLancer I did not say they were useless, or that they do not result in a higher damage combo when successfully applied. I said the difference in damage isn't important enough to make them a requirement to play KoF (which is exactly what you're saying, I just used more words) and the potential damage increase isn't even the main reason competitive players go for them in _most_ cases (again, _most._ Not "all". My previous reply already elaborates on why)
However, I suppose you felt it appropriate to specify that newer players can "learn the ropes" without links, where I would argue that neither casual enjoyment nor competitive success at any level requires them. If your primary goal is to win a tournament, the first step to that is picking a better team than Ryo/Yuri.
Boy I don't know what's more surprising, that I watched a 23 minute video about combos, or that there's a 23 minute video about combos that doesn't even have the briefest mention of Killer Instinct.
10:57 my favourite line in this video.
"All fighters feel the same" is such a funny and stupid quote as someone who has played only 3 fighters, where one feels amazing ( Skullgirls ), one feels clunky ( Them's Fightin' Herds ), and one is complicated but smooth ( Guilty Gear )
and this is just *my* experience
Can't wait for the TFH video.
A Leon Massey video without sarcasm or a guilty gear refferance would be like going to your grandmas house and she doesn't even ask if you're hungry or offer you any biscuits.
I do slightly disagree about calling all normal cancel systems just "cancels". Being able to tell immediately what *type* of cancel system it is is quite useful, and "light into medium into heavy into drive cancels" is just a mouthful. Especially with Reverse beat, where the alternative is particularly too long yet providing little to the player. For a new player it might not be terribly useful to hear "magic series", but it also isnt something they need to know exactly.
All I know reverse beat is, is instead of going light, medium heavy, you can go heavy, light, medium for example. In other words "combo structure, what's that?", though that's probably wrong.
@@grimms8783 you aren't far off. Reverse Beat is any normal cancel from a heavier move to a lighter one(H->M,M->L, or the forbidden H->M->L) It's in Melty Blood and UnderNight
@@joelsmemes4140 Ah, well that's what I meant I probably just didn't make it come across right, I mainly know reverse beat because in DBFZ level 7 Gohan can do it, and Frieza when he does his Golden Frieza install can do the same thing, though they're the only characters capable of doing it to that level, some other characters have limited reverse beat abilities like Vegito.
The number of quips per minute on these videos! Such good, thoughtful content. SO DAMN FUNNY.
A casual player thats been using auto-combos is discouraged from experimenting with real combos because as soon as they actually put in a little effort theyre gonna be effectively punished, with less damage or drops (assuming theyre experimenting while casually playing, not in training mode)
It's so nice that you put snippets of Kyanta 2 in the video
Hatsune Miku really needs the exposure for her fighting game
Oh, my heart warms whenever I see a Bob player.
Ew - anybody who played tekken 6
Melee's combo system fits neatly into the juggle system, but it's a lot more improvised because how far your enemy gets knocked back is constantly increasing as you keep on damaging them.
So a BnB combo will only be true between a particular damage threshold, and after that you need to predict where your enemy will end up after the first hit based on damage % and guessing their DI or which direction they're mostly likely to tech after landing.
Still has the same satisfying feeling of constantly juggling your opponent though.
guys i gotta feeling leon didn't like strive very much
This video popped into my recommended and gained you a new subscriber, as well as a new perspective on combos in fighters in general. As a grappler main I'm used to looking for and learning the breaks in combos but never really learning more complex combos than heavy into command grab basically.
fwiw I mostly refer to DMC style action games as "Character Action"
I like "Spectacle Fighter" myself.
@@FlameEcho Spectacle Fighter is a better term actually, I hear both thrown around since everyone seems to unamimously agree that 'action' as a genre means nothing on its own lol
everyone has their own name for the genre and not a single one of them makes sense
They are like the modern take on beatemups to me
Time to talk about Soku! In Soku, you can cancel lights (most attacks that use the singular melee button) into command normals (same button plus a direction), either of those into any light bullet (button 2) and melees or light bullets into any heavy bullet (button 3) and any of those into specials (motion inputs). And anything into supers (all meter is 1 button to activate but has other complexities too long to mention). You can also jump or airdash cancel any projectile move, including many specials, so the combo system allows for a lot of freedom. In terms of infinite prevention it has an airtech system where combos drop earlier the longer the combo goes on, but rather than requiring the opponent to airtech, they gain invul the moment they are able to airtech, regardless of wether they do. It also has a “limit” system where moves fill a different percentage of “limit” and when the opponent reaches 100% or more, the combo ends, but you get knockdown and oki, so it is almost always the goal to combo until you limit.
I liked ur video a lot, it would be interesting for you to take a deep dive into the combo systems of KI or Melee, especially the latter since it's the deepest but also one that isn't too complex for people to undesrtand.
I think my favorite part of doing combos is when you get to do all of these different techniques. Like something as simple as Guile Jump HK, Stand HP, Crouch MP, Sonic Boom, Sonic Hurricane. Within this combo, there’s a jump in, a link, a cancel, and a super cancel, and it can feel so satisfying to pull off.
Modern KI's combos are my favorite, personally.
Dont have a single clue what you’re talking about but i just like listening
Damn man he really did kick the router huh 19:16
Rustlers rib burgers are the peak of Western Cuisine and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I can't believe this man just skipped over the Alpha series like Capcom didn't figure out combos until 3s. Custom combo anyone? The Vs games were out first! I'm pretty sure they had a handle on all kinds of combos by then.
Fax. Those games had a fuckton of combo options for your main.
That’s probably just lack of playtime, Leon probably hasn’t played the alpha 3s also it didn’t fit his video as custom combos didn’t fit with the links part in his video
I just got home from a stressful day of work, I've been looking forward to this video all day, love your content dude
For real though Smash Combos just feel nice. Its also kind of shame that you didn't have any room to even discuss none execution based expression, like combo choices for damage vs harder knockdown vs meter gain vs stage position vs resets.