wow...he just earned my humble respect...being in the US i didnt think much of this horse and what the fuss was about him...this is the 7th race of him that i watched of him (on youtube) and i cannot beleive that he has that extra gear in him...geez, did u see the last furlong, how he responded???special...very special
Watching the replay of the Coral Eclipse again, and also having seen both replays of his win's in the Q.E. II and the Sussex Stakes, I am still more impressed, even in a 2nd place effort in Rip Van Winkle's run in this race for the simple fact that he gave his all, and nearly ran down the best thoroughbred in the whole world. JMO.
One of the greats.To win a Guineas to an Arc and all those Group 1s in between showed such a versatile horse and at such contrasting tracks and look at the quality of horses he beat along the way.Fame and Glory won an Irish Derby and an Ascot Gold Cup,Conduit won at two Breeders Cups and he beat a top class Arc field.Would have beaten Frankel at any distance I reckon
Brian Taylor on Snow Knight rode a great race didn't he? I was only 11 years old and my father asked me to pick a horse so 10p each way on Imperial Prince it was and I think he came 2nd
He was a great horse, there is no doubt, the vid here is the second fastest Eclipse of all time, a track record broken at York, one of the fastest ever 2000 Guineas, and you brought in time to doubt him even if his Derby was a slow time his Arc win was 4 sec faster than standard. There is also no real claim that his oppostion was moderate taking into account all the G1 winners he beat.
Rip Van Winkle is fantastic as well. He's coming to the states for the BC Classic. I can't wait! He's my pick to win the classic unless STS comes over. Sea the Stars winning over him just makes STS look even better. Fingers are crossed that STS makes the trip as well.
@zarakhast ...and is in a sense what my whole argument is based on.How did he beat Mastercraftsmen by 1 length at York and look as if he had a hard race,yet beat him 5 lengths at Leopardstown seemingly easily?Because he had to.I doubt he would have won a seller around Catterick by more than 2 lengths.You could almost call it laziness or self preservation,depending on your view,but his record is unrivalled due to either robustness or ease of victory.He had both.Regards
Being somewhat intellectually deficient, you'll never fully appreciate how unintentionally funny your previous post was! Please ensure you never delete it, as it will provide amusement to anyone who cares to read these exchanges. Well done. Well done indeed!
Well to me he's almost up there with the Brave and will surpass him with an Arc victory. He was superb today. Having said that, I think El Gran Senor would probably have beaten the pair of them over 10 furlongs!!! Let's just enjoy him while he's here.
STS was at times eyeballs out to beat 125 horses, whereas Frankel typically gave the same standard of competition a shellacking. STS was good but Frankel was great.
I would have bet any amount of money, with maximum confidence, that Sea The Stars would have beaten Dancing Brave over any distance. Remember too that C4 racing and Racing UK were aware of the comparisons between STS and Dancing Brave - and Nashwan. They then set out to illustrate what STS would ( in theory ) have done to both had they met. After running VTs of 86 and 89 Eclipse side by side with this, the concensus was that Sea The Stars would have left Nashwan and Dancing Brave toiling.
@zarakhast ....which was explosion,then relax.To win over a variey of distances as they both did is virtually unique and I seriously doubt that either of us will see an animal of such presence again.Your right,we will never know what STS had in reserve,but the way he conducted himself was almost an insult to his opponentsWas he seriously asked to give it his all?His Irish Champion victory was IMO amazing considering the margin of victory over Mastercraftsman versus York.It seemed effortless...
High. Now that's what I call a smart horse. Zenyatta is like the great Dan Patch. He was the subject of many books and Hollywood films, unbeaten, household name, most well known athlete at the start of the century. It all sounds familiar. You will be lucky to see another like the great Zenyatta.
QR will never beat RA. She was just only a tick off the track record at Monmouth Park over a track that had not been playing very fast all day long. Both STS and RA are the two most brillant horses in the world today. They race on two different surfaces, but are both sheer class. When they step on the track, you think 'boy, what are we going to see today'? They have already stamped their places in history as two of the greatest to have ever raced. RA will be facing older soon. Just enjoy them.
nice comment GBeret83.. just thout id point out that galileo is sts half brother, excellent comparsion.. but the breeding is perfection as well,, THE HORSE OF A LIFETIME!!!!
@botelho27 You're right that there are other superstars who would have given him a race, but jockeys didn't try different tactics? At York it was Mastercraftsman and 2 Ballydoyle pacemakers vs. STS in a 4 horse race, and they let Mastercraftsman kick early. In the Derby they sat off him with Fame&Glory, then in Ireland surrounded and let Fame get first run on him. Fame then pocketed him in the Arc. They set suicidal paces for the Juddmonte and Irish Champion, and crawled in the Derby...
This was a really tough field of competition that Sea The Stars took down on this day. A lot of really good colt's in this race. Usually, just beating Conduit is quite a challenge, but STS made it look like just another day at the office. Even in defeat, this was probably the strongest run that I've seen Rip Van Winkle make. Even knowing that he won the Sussex and the Q.E. II.
I agree with your first sentence, but would add the word "yet". The way he's ducking races owing to ground will count against his long term standing, but it looks like circumstances may yet conspire to bring him to the Arc. I hope so, as I think Sea the Stars is top drawer. As things stand, the Eclipse will define him: the form's not exactly bad - beating RVW, clearly AOB's best this year, and Conduit who's superb in his own right. The rest were obliterated.
i just think that the rip has improved and learned a lot from each run this season. i think if there was a rematch we would see a closer result. however i agree with you that sea the stars keeps a bit up his sleeve and thats what makes him a brilliant horse. giants causeway was the same- only just doing enough to win but had more in reserve if needed.
@zarakhast It is right, the incident happens at 3.47. Watch for RVW at that point moving his head sharply to his left. This has actually been covered by many people on many racing forums and there's quite a large article about it on a racing website although oddly enough there is no mention of it on the allegedly superior The Racing Forum on their 2009 Eclipse thread.
MrPapaBill. I agree that the century has only started, and another champion may come along. I personally think the best horse in the last century was Dan Patch. He also ran in the first part of the last century. Eclipse is the most recent great one you have had to my mind in Britain. Note that this race is named after him. If STS is so great, then the race will be renamed the Coral Sea the Stars maybe.
@Newworldman66 people sometimes have a perception or mind's eye view of events & see it one way & so if anyone offers up an alternative version then they tend to still feel their own one is the correct one. I personally think if someone offered up something different to what I thought then I'd take a second look if only to satisfy my own curiosity but if they were to be specific with their details, then I would probably take even more notice. The 3:47 part is fairly specific. :)
I don't think it takes away from STS's greatness at all that he never won any of his races by a huge margin. Quite the contrary. He could set anywhere in a race. Then when the gap's appeared, he had the gears needed to shoot right through an opening, and enough stamina and turn of foot to propel himself to victory. You don't reel off winning the 2000 Guneas, Epsom Derby, Coral Eclipse, Juddmonte International Stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, and the Arc without having some great ability. JMO.
At tha end of tha day no one can tell in racing whats gonna happen Rip may have his day against Sea The Stars anythin could happen!!! I backed Rip an was very impressed he's gettin closer an closer!!! Credit 2 Sea The Stars tho 2 do what Nashwan did all them years ago was a great achivement!!!
I've followed thoroughbred racing all the way back to the day's of Secretariat in 73'. I follow the American as well as the European horses. I don't know if I've ever seen a stronger horse on turf than STS. That's saying a bunch because Europe has had some great grass horses. Galileo, Giant's Causeway, Shergar just to name a few.
This Group 1 race often includes a classic winner/winners and Sea The Stars is the latest of them all. I feel that is an openly contested King George at Ascot and Conduit who placed in the Eclipse has a chance.
@Newworldman66 I think he was probably checked to straighten him up. I agree, STS didn't accelerate. Not sure if it would have affected the outcome though?
@Newworldman66 ....having everthing from temperment to confirmation to change of pace(which was more instant than DB's)going on most types of ground over any distance.J Francome said and I totally agree,'he is the best horse around from 7f to 1m 6f'.He would easily have won the Leger and it's a shame the Triple Crown doesn't carry the lustre it once did.All in all though,he being the most complete makes him the best in my eyes.The argument about his 'shortlived' turn of foot is absolutely....
1000 Guineas beaten mighty horses such as Goldikova (who won her next 4 races all at group level including the Breeders Cup Mile and the Prix De Moulin) and Halfway To Heaven (went on to win the Irish 1000 guineas and two other group 1 races) in the third in the process then he sauntered home in the French Oaks and then in my opinion his most impressive race which was a prep race for the arc (Prix Vermeille) he gave group 1 horses a ten length start and still beat solid horses like Dar Ra Me
@guitarlegend32 ... lifetime that I see a horse who is as complete.He had absolutely everything,looks,talent,breeding,temperment and I would be staggered if he wasn't a success at stud.His first book of mares contain 92 group 1,group 2 winners or broodmares of such stock and the produce of his mating with Zarkava would I am sure if sold,come close to a record sum.It was just a true pleasure to be able to see a horse mentioned in the same breath as DB when I never thought I'd see one as good.
that would be some race to say the least. i havent a clue who would win. very very difficult. maybe we could throw dancing brave into the mix just to make it that bit harder.
@zarakhast We look at everything biasly no doubt.DB needed his turn of foot to be more 'sustained' because in his Arc victory he came from further back than what STS did.He would have won the race no matter what the circumstance and it was visually incredible to watch.All the same on the point of 'battling' I think DB was put through the mill by Eddery in his Arc win and to an extent in his KG victory.Did STS have to dig deep in winning his Arc?He won in the same manner as in all his wins...
@zarakhast Just three questions.How do you know STS would have lost had he kept racing?Why is it that you don't think horses have a tendency to just do enough which you clearly don't?Do you honestly think this trait doesn't exist and that STS was one of these horses?If so why.DB went for home 2 furlongs out in his KG and 'ran out of steam'.You must think this because you clearly think that horses don't idle in front.
@147ard Sea the Stars doesn't go flat to the boards to the line, as you can see in this race, he idles when he gets to the front and does just enough to win. Oxx and Kinane have talked about this numerous times, and perhaps is why people think hes so great; we never got to the bottom of him
Dessie. The problem is that horse racing just doesn't have the same impact as it had, say, at the time of Dan Patch. We still remember the great horses of the past. Today, it is all about people like David Beckham, Serena Williams and Tiger Woods. In the last century, horses had this sort of fame. Hollywood movies were made about horses like Phar Lap, Seabiscuit and of course, Dan Patch.
i am so glad he has now retired. he is an incredable horse so im glad he has finished on a high after winning the L'ARC and that everybody knows what is best for him.
@zarakhast STS doesn't 'quicken again' - it's an optical illusion. RVW is closing on STS but when he gets to half a length off him Kinane waives his whip in RVW's face. RVW flinches then jinks to his left but despite this only loses by around a length. STS was just keeping on at the same pace.
1987's Eclipse betters it. To many eyes 1987's winner is the best ever over 10. STS is, however, unmeasurably good. His style of winning means the arguments will continue for decades.
What I meant was that Rip was a staying on 4th in the 2000gns & is by Galileo, a Derby winner, yet was held up in the Derby as if to see if he got the trip, whereas STS was ridden positively in the Derby, even though there were stamina doubts, being by Cape Cross, a miler & the slow paced helped him. That's why I couldn't understand Rip & Conduit (a Leger winner) sitting behind a 2000gns winner, as neither of them would have had the speed to win a 2000gns, so why not try to stretch STS?
How exciting is THIS...I had 1700 smakers on SEA THE STARS..wiv Betfair....at 8-11/...........Coral fort winkle win...he was tip top and 10furlong specialist....They lost their conkers...WE have seen the STAR alrite.
@zarakhast I agree that 2009 was not as good as 1986 when talking in strength in depth.Again I can only reiterate my opinion and that of nearly all good commentaters including and most importantly M.Kinane's that STS always had loads left and had his turn of foot needed lasting longer it would have.Lest we forget he pulled very hard in his Arc so his comfortable win is all the more comendable.As you wrote STS change of pace was explosive and got to the front in all his wins very easily...
John Oxx never said he wasn't sure about his STS's trip , he was pulled from the Derby at the Curragh because of soft ground and he was never intended for the KG. Oxx stated that the plan after eclipse was the Juddmonte , Irish Champion & ARC. Your comment about the ARC is silly as STS would have beaten any field as he was quite simply the best of his time , and again Oxx did not state anywhere. Please get your facts right for the public.
@Newworldman66 Do you think Rip would ever beat STS?The reason he jinked,like most horses,was because he was tired and defeated,not in my opinion because of the whip.STS mannerism of self preservasion enabled him to have a 3yo career that is utterly unique and may never be equaled.The arguments about greatness against particularly DB are brilliant and we should rejoice that these hero's ever existed.Personally I think DB had pure brilliance but what made STS better was his completeness........
SEA THE STARS gana muy limpio y facil.RIP VAN WINCLE,hace la carrera de su vida.SEA gana muy bien.RIP,vaticino,no volvera a ser el mismo.¡Cuestion de clase y moral!.
@Newworldman66 I accept correction on the King George Newworld but still the reality is he lined up in the Guineas, Derby and Arc. Top 3 year olds avoid the KG as a matter of routine now. He appeared in 6 top class Group one races.
You can't really knock Sea the Stars on what he's done but he has had the run of the race in his last 2 starts. There was no pace in the Derby where there were doubts about him staying & yet Kinane rode him up with the pace as if he WOULD stay, whereas some of the O'Brien horses were ridden off the pace, like Rip & Conduit were here, which defies belief really & Rip did look like making a battle of it & would have gone closer if he kept straight, but Fortune had to switched his whip 3 times.
Sea the stars was a proper mile and half horse running in a 10f race. He didn't hold Rip van Winkle, he was starting to pull away and recorded a record time in that race. Whether he would have beaten Frankel over 10f is debatable.
The Euro's have some amazing talent this year. Sea the Stars may be the best thoroughbred I've seen in many years. Rachael who? I don't blame his connections for retiring him at the top of his game. But still, Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Delegator, Fame and Glory, Gladiatorus, Goldikova, Septimus. The American's are really up against it this year in the Breeders Cup.
Sea The Stars is definitely out of the top drawer. My dream race would be over the Prince of Wales Stakes course and distance with the following runners: Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Montjeu, Daylami, Sea The Stars, Sakhee, Fantastic Light, Galileo, High Chapperall, Peinte Celebre, Zarkava and Dubai Millennium. Who would win??!!
Azertyuiop32.I also would like to see a rematch but what makes you think rips win at goodwood is any better than his second in the eclipse?Sea the stars always saves something for himself so he will always improve,just look at what he did to rip when he got to his quaters in this race.He wouldn't beat Sea the stars over 5f or 3 miles.
Anyone notice that the major reason why sea the stars won this duel is because kinane hit rip van winkle in the face with his whip @ 3:45 - 3:46 you can clearly see Rip motion from being hit in the face
Not rubbish at all. After STS won a slowly run Derby John Oxx wasn't at all convinced that 12f was STS's best trip. At that point Oxx still thought of him more of a 10f horse. He pulled him out of the Irish Derby on the morning of the race and completely swerved the KG. Moreover, his main target for the season was clearly stated as the ICS not the Arc. He was only confirmed for the Arc when it became clear that the Arc field was weak and it would be a relatively easy task for STS to win the race
The kind of race he ran in this race was the kind of race I really felt Rip Van Winkle would run in the Breeders Cup Classic. Really disappointed with his finish. But Zenyatta was much the best that day.
Fantastic RVW gave it everything but STS had him beaten no matter what. He reminds me of a great athlete going through the rounds at the olympics,never wanting to lose but only ever doing enough to win.
@thehorsesmouth1991 Not being fussy but Jimmy Fortune actually rode RVW this day, unsure where murtagh was must have been banned or riding in ireland? but that was the closest any of the ballydoyle actually got to beating STS and i do agree that RVW got a slap with kinanes whip but then watching STS next 3 races it looked like he would have beaten them regardless of what happened on this day
Just watch the Juddmonte International back from last season, Are you telling Me STS would have beat Frankel there? Ballydoyle employed 2 pacemakers again and even ran to the far rail to ensure it was a proper test of stamina instead of sticking to the inside. Frankel merely cantered alongside the pack and put 7 lengths between himself and a Gr1 field in the space of a furlong. Like I've said before thats the difference between the two...
Good comment Kadir but I do think that STS in a sense was 'toying with him'.Rip was immensely disappointing in the U.S, although I would like to add one thing.He looked good after this run at Goodwood but only o.k at Ascot.The form of this race is outstanding but I don't think he really improved afterwards.This in a sense was down to AOB trying desperately to confirm his 'class' that he didn't stop going on about all season.I wouldn't be surprised if Rip stayed in training.
@zarakhast ....actually think exists yet DB actually had it himself.DB was'being caught at the line'but that seems to be o.k. Heard of the line 'needs his head putting in front on the line'?Why?Because some horses stop when in front beleiving they've done enough.So many horses have this idiosyncrasy and I've ridden some myself having been an apprentice with R.Hannon.Mr.Brooks was such a horse who won the July Cup.Why else would M.Kinane say STS would never win by more than a couple of lengths?
would like to see rip van winkle take on sea the stars again. i think it would be a lot closer than last time but that is not to say i think the rip would win.
As a racing expert you'll know that Leopardstown is a much more testing course than York which is slicker. MC was a miler who didn't quite get home at York, if he had then he'd have won that race. He was toiling in the ICS from about 3f out on more testing ground, so he gets beat by a much bigger margin by STS. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!
@forsoup Kinane didn't take STS 'up another gear'. As RVW got to about half a length off STS, Kinane waived his whip in front of RVW causing him to flinch then veer to his left so checking his momentum. There was no extra burst of acceleration from STS.
well see how he reacts when headed or someone gets upsides him. i was at the 1f pole and you could see the momentum was going to keep him in front as fortune had quickened but wasnt gaining . not really a great older horse to stop him this year. kinane said leopardstown next and ascot swerved. thought a better chance of fim ground at ascot. they need to take on the french in the arc regardless of ground for racings sake or hell always have his detractors. bcturf/classic on the AW at SA?
He definitely had a "turn of foot" that you don't see very many 3yr.old colt's have. He just really accelerated at will. He ran like an older colt IMO.
for me and always sea the stars is an all time great for what he done in those special 6 months... it would not have mattered about speed or who else was in the race.... he was a very clever and talented horse... from what i see of this race mick kinane did not intend to do anything but ride sea the stars...........
How on earth can you say Sea The Stars' turn of foot was overrated?! Hahahahahaha!!! You just saw Rip Van Winkle absolutely accelerate up on the outside of Sea The Stars so Kinane just took him up another gear and RVW simply had no answer. 7 Group 1's in a row is pretty spectacular considering he 'didn't have something extra'.
I do wonder why STS is considered an all time great when he could just about beat this field, all time greats usually beat their opposition by a good few lengths or win on the bridle.
In the America, when a rival whips another in the face, it is grounds that constitute automatic disqualification. How did the stewards not review this race? It was close enough to warrant an investigation at the least, as RVW was rallying with significant momentum...
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Here in 2024 and still in love with Sea The Stars ❤
wow...he just earned my humble respect...being in the US i didnt think much of this horse and what the fuss was about him...this is the 7th race of him that i watched of him (on youtube) and i cannot beleive that he has that extra gear in him...geez, did u see the last furlong, how he responded???special...very special
Sea the Stars ,best horse I have seen since Nijinsky.
Watching the replay of the Coral Eclipse again, and also having seen both replays of his win's in the Q.E. II and the Sussex Stakes, I am still more impressed, even in a 2nd place effort in Rip Van Winkle's run in this race for the simple fact that he gave his all, and nearly ran down the best thoroughbred in the whole world. JMO.
Perhaps the GOAT
Never tire of watching STS , we might never see his likes again. The greatest !!
I think so.
One of the greats.To win a Guineas to an Arc and all those Group 1s in between showed such a versatile horse and at such contrasting tracks and look at the quality of horses he beat along the way.Fame and Glory won an Irish Derby and an Ascot Gold Cup,Conduit won at two Breeders Cups and he beat a top class Arc field.Would have beaten Frankel at any distance I reckon
Maybe not a mile - best of three would've been interesting
I/m 52 and been on them since Snow Knight delivered a 50/1. I loved the Brigadier but Stars is even better.
Brian Taylor on Snow Knight rode a great race didn't he? I was only 11 years old and my father asked me to pick a horse so 10p each way on Imperial Prince it was and I think he came 2nd
He was a great horse, there is no doubt, the vid here is the second fastest Eclipse of all time, a track record broken at York, one of the fastest ever 2000 Guineas, and you brought in time to doubt him even if his Derby was a slow time his Arc win was 4 sec faster than standard. There is also no real claim that his oppostion was moderate taking into account all the G1 winners he beat.
"Perfection in equine form, the horse of a lifetime" -Jim McGrath
Even today he hasn't got the credit he deserved
i missed this race live, but BRILLIANT! such a great colt! Sea The Stars is a STAR! well done owner, trainer, jockey, groom, and of course HORSE! x
Rip Van Winkle is fantastic as well. He's coming to the states for the BC Classic. I can't wait! He's my pick to win the classic unless STS comes over. Sea the Stars winning over him just makes STS look even better. Fingers are crossed that STS makes the trip as well.
@zarakhast ...and is in a sense what my whole argument is based on.How did he beat Mastercraftsmen by 1 length at York and look as if he had a hard race,yet beat him 5 lengths at Leopardstown seemingly easily?Because he had to.I doubt he would have won a seller around Catterick by more than 2 lengths.You could almost call it laziness or self preservation,depending on your view,but his record is unrivalled due to either robustness or ease of victory.He had both.Regards
Being somewhat intellectually deficient, you'll never fully appreciate how unintentionally funny your previous post was! Please ensure you never delete it, as it will provide amusement to anyone who cares to read these exchanges. Well done. Well done indeed!
My favourite horse ..STS 💕💖💓
Rip Van Winkle RIP
Well to me he's almost up there with the Brave and will surpass him with an Arc victory. He was superb today. Having said that, I think El Gran Senor would probably have beaten the pair of them over 10 furlongs!!! Let's just enjoy him while he's here.
Totally agree Oscar.This horses record is UNIQUE.Brilliant mover/accelerator.Would make Zenyatta look like a selling plater.
Sea The Stars is the best racehorse in the world at the moment in my view...
You were right
STS was at times eyeballs out to beat 125 horses, whereas Frankel typically gave the same standard of competition a shellacking. STS was good but Frankel was great.
@KTWanPinkF Absolutely right,he does his real running coming from behind,then keeps them at bay.Great great horse.
I would have bet any amount of money, with maximum confidence, that Sea The Stars would have beaten Dancing Brave over any distance. Remember too that C4 racing and Racing UK were aware of the comparisons between STS and Dancing Brave - and Nashwan. They then set out to illustrate what STS would ( in theory ) have done to both had they met. After running VTs of 86 and 89 Eclipse side by side with this, the concensus was that Sea The Stars would have left Nashwan and Dancing Brave toiling.
@zarakhast ....which was explosion,then relax.To win over a variey of distances as they both did is virtually unique and I seriously doubt that either of us will see an animal of such presence again.Your right,we will never know what STS had in reserve,but the way he conducted himself was almost an insult to his opponentsWas he seriously asked to give it his all?His Irish Champion victory was IMO amazing considering the margin of victory over Mastercraftsman versus York.It seemed effortless...
High. Now that's what I call a smart horse. Zenyatta is like the great Dan Patch. He was the subject of many books and Hollywood films, unbeaten, household name, most well known athlete at the start of the century. It all sounds familiar. You will be lucky to see another like the great Zenyatta.
Trained by John Oxx
Jockey is Mick Kinane.
Won the 2000 Guinneas, & The Derby.
Good pedigree.
Ideal trip 1m 2f
Mighty Mick, gave RVW a massive slash across the dome with his persuader
QR will never beat RA. She was just only a tick off the track record at Monmouth Park over a track that had not been playing very fast all day long. Both STS and RA are the two most brillant horses in the world today. They race on two different surfaces, but are both sheer class. When they step on the track, you think 'boy, what are we going to see today'? They have already stamped their places in history as two of the greatest to have ever raced. RA will be facing older soon. Just enjoy them.
nice comment GBeret83.. just thout id point out that galileo is sts half brother, excellent comparsion.. but the breeding is perfection as well,, THE HORSE OF A LIFETIME!!!!
@botelho27 You're right that there are other superstars who would have given him a race, but jockeys didn't try different tactics? At York it was Mastercraftsman and 2 Ballydoyle pacemakers vs. STS in a 4 horse race, and they let Mastercraftsman kick early. In the Derby they sat off him with Fame&Glory, then in Ireland surrounded and let Fame get first run on him. Fame then pocketed him in the Arc. They set suicidal paces for the Juddmonte and Irish Champion, and crawled in the Derby...
This was a really tough field of competition that Sea The Stars took down on this day. A lot of really good colt's in this race. Usually, just beating Conduit is quite a challenge, but STS made it look like just another day at the office. Even in defeat, this was probably the strongest run that I've seen Rip Van Winkle make. Even knowing that he won the Sussex and the Q.E. II.
I agree with your first sentence, but would add the word "yet". The way he's ducking races owing to ground will count against his long term standing, but it looks like circumstances may yet conspire to bring him to the Arc. I hope so, as I think Sea the Stars is top drawer.
As things stand, the Eclipse will define him: the form's not exactly bad - beating RVW, clearly AOB's best this year, and Conduit who's superb in his own right. The rest were obliterated.
i just think that the rip has improved and learned a lot from each run this season. i think if there was a rematch we would see a closer result. however i agree with you that sea the stars keeps a bit up his sleeve and thats what makes him a brilliant horse. giants causeway was the same- only just doing enough to win but had more in reserve if needed.
Ademas de grandisimo que docil es el caballo.
Tocado por un soplo divino,este dios del viento.
¡Emocionado por tanta belleza!.
The Flat equivelent of Big Bucks. What ever they throw at him he found more and more. Great horse.
miseable sod ! - open ya eyes ..... the best since the 70's
John Oxx , Michael Kinnane and his pedigree, he's a brother of Gailileo, both sons of Saddlers Wells . He was a wonderful horse !
Both out of Urban Sea. Galileo was sired by Saddler's Wells, Sea the Stars was sired by Cape Cross
@zarakhast It is right, the incident happens at 3.47. Watch for RVW at that point moving his head sharply to his left. This has actually been covered by many people on many racing forums and there's quite a large article about it on a racing website although oddly enough there is no mention of it on the allegedly superior The Racing Forum on their 2009 Eclipse thread.
MrPapaBill. I agree that the century has only started, and another champion may come along. I personally think the best horse in the last century was Dan Patch. He also ran in the first part of the last century. Eclipse is the most recent great one you have had to my mind in Britain. Note that this race is named after him. If STS is so great, then the race will be renamed the Coral Sea the Stars maybe.
great commentary jim
@Newworldman66 people sometimes have a perception or mind's eye view of events & see it one way & so if anyone offers up an alternative version then they tend to still feel their own one is the correct one.
I personally think if someone offered up something different to what I thought then I'd take a second look if only to satisfy my own curiosity but if they were to be specific with their details, then I would probably take even more notice. The 3:47 part is fairly specific. :)
I don't think it takes away from STS's greatness at all that he never won any of his races by a huge margin. Quite the contrary. He could set anywhere in a race. Then when the gap's appeared, he had the gears needed to shoot right through an opening, and enough stamina and turn of foot to propel himself to victory. You don't reel off winning the 2000 Guneas, Epsom Derby, Coral Eclipse, Juddmonte International Stakes, Irish Champion Stakes, and the Arc without having some great ability. JMO.
what a race , for me its very hard for a 3 y old to win that one
St Nicholas Abbey... Whats the opinion??
At tha end of tha day no one can tell in racing whats gonna happen Rip may have his day against Sea The Stars anythin could happen!!! I backed Rip an was very impressed he's gettin closer an closer!!! Credit 2 Sea The Stars tho 2 do what Nashwan did all them years ago was a great achivement!!!
I've followed thoroughbred racing all the way back to the day's of Secretariat in 73'. I follow the American as well as the European horses. I don't know if I've ever seen a stronger horse on turf than STS. That's saying a bunch because Europe has had some great grass horses. Galileo, Giant's Causeway, Shergar just to name a few.
This Group 1 race often includes a classic winner/winners and Sea The Stars is the latest of them all. I feel that is an openly contested King George at Ascot and Conduit who placed in the Eclipse has a chance.
@Newworldman66 I think he was probably checked to straighten him up. I agree, STS didn't accelerate. Not sure if it would have affected the outcome though?
@Newworldman66 ....having everthing from temperment to confirmation to change of pace(which was more instant than DB's)going on most types of ground over any distance.J Francome said and I totally agree,'he is the best horse around from 7f to 1m 6f'.He would easily have won the Leger and it's a shame the Triple Crown doesn't carry the lustre it once did.All in all though,he being the most complete makes him the best in my eyes.The argument about his 'shortlived' turn of foot is absolutely....
1000 Guineas beaten mighty horses such as Goldikova (who won her next 4 races all at group level including the Breeders Cup Mile and the Prix De Moulin) and Halfway To Heaven (went on to win the Irish 1000 guineas and two other group 1 races) in the third in the process then he sauntered home in the French Oaks and then in my opinion his most impressive race which was a prep race for the arc (Prix Vermeille) he gave group 1 horses a ten length start and still beat solid horses like Dar Ra Me
@guitarlegend32 ... lifetime that I see a horse who is as complete.He had absolutely everything,looks,talent,breeding,temperment and I would be staggered if he wasn't a success at stud.His first book of mares contain 92 group 1,group 2 winners or broodmares of such stock and the produce of his mating with Zarkava would I am sure if sold,come close to a record sum.It was just a true pleasure to be able to see a horse mentioned in the same breath as DB when I never thought I'd see one as good.
baaeed
that would be some race to say the least. i havent a clue who would win. very very difficult. maybe we could throw dancing brave into the mix just to make it that bit harder.
@zarakhast We look at everything biasly no doubt.DB needed his turn of foot to be more 'sustained' because in his Arc victory he came from further back than what STS did.He would have won the race no matter what the circumstance and it was visually incredible to watch.All the same on the point of 'battling' I think DB was put through the mill by Eddery in his Arc win and to an extent in his KG victory.Did STS have to dig deep in winning his Arc?He won in the same manner as in all his wins...
@zarakhast Just three questions.How do you know STS would have lost had he kept racing?Why is it that you don't think horses have a tendency to just do enough which you clearly don't?Do you honestly think this trait doesn't exist and that STS was one of these horses?If so why.DB went for home 2 furlongs out in his KG and 'ran out of steam'.You must think this because you clearly think that horses don't idle in front.
@147ard
Sea the Stars doesn't go flat to the boards to the line, as you can see in this race, he idles when he gets to the front and does just enough to win.
Oxx and Kinane have talked about this numerous times, and perhaps is why people think hes so great; we never got to the bottom of him
Dessie. The problem is that horse racing just doesn't have the same impact as it had, say, at the time of Dan Patch. We still remember the great horses of the past. Today, it is all about people like David Beckham, Serena Williams and Tiger Woods. In the last century, horses had this sort of fame. Hollywood movies were made about horses like Phar Lap, Seabiscuit and of course, Dan Patch.
i am so glad he has now retired.
he is an incredable horse so im glad he has finished on a high after winning the L'ARC and that everybody knows what is best for him.
@zarakhast STS doesn't 'quicken again' - it's an optical illusion. RVW is closing on STS but when he gets to half a length off him Kinane waives his whip in RVW's face. RVW flinches then jinks to his left but despite this only loses by around a length. STS was just keeping on at the same pace.
1987's Eclipse betters it. To many eyes 1987's winner is the best ever over 10. STS is, however, unmeasurably good. His style of winning means the arguments will continue for decades.
What I meant was that Rip was a staying on 4th in the 2000gns & is by Galileo, a Derby winner, yet was held up in the Derby as if to see if he got the trip, whereas STS was ridden positively in the Derby, even though there were stamina doubts, being by Cape Cross, a miler & the slow paced helped him.
That's why I couldn't understand Rip & Conduit (a Leger winner) sitting behind a 2000gns winner, as neither of them would have had the speed to win a 2000gns, so why not try to stretch STS?
whether he stole it from van winkle or not, he is truly great. The way he won the arc was just an example of what he can do,
How exciting is THIS...I had 1700 smakers on SEA THE STARS..wiv Betfair....at 8-11/...........Coral fort winkle win...he was tip top and 10furlong specialist....They lost their conkers...WE have seen the STAR alrite.
@zarakhast I agree that 2009 was not as good as 1986 when talking in strength in depth.Again I can only reiterate my opinion and that of nearly all good commentaters including and most importantly M.Kinane's that STS always had loads left and had his turn of foot needed lasting longer it would have.Lest we forget he pulled very hard in his Arc so his comfortable win is all the more comendable.As you wrote STS change of pace was explosive and got to the front in all his wins very easily...
John Oxx never said he wasn't sure about his STS's trip , he was pulled from the Derby at the Curragh because of soft ground and he was never intended for the KG. Oxx stated that the plan after eclipse was the Juddmonte , Irish Champion & ARC. Your comment about the ARC is silly as STS would have beaten any field as he was quite simply the best of his time , and again Oxx did not state anywhere. Please get your facts right for the public.
@Newworldman66 Do you think Rip would ever beat STS?The reason he jinked,like most horses,was because he was tired and defeated,not in my opinion because of the whip.STS mannerism of self preservasion enabled him to have a 3yo career that is utterly unique and may never be equaled.The arguments about greatness against particularly DB are brilliant and we should rejoice that these hero's ever existed.Personally I think DB had pure brilliance but what made STS better was his completeness........
So what you are saying is Trincot would have beaten Sea The Stars basically?
SEA THE STARS gana muy limpio y facil.RIP VAN WINCLE,hace la carrera de su vida.SEA gana muy bien.RIP,vaticino,no volvera a ser el mismo.¡Cuestion de clase y moral!.
please post the juddmonte international.
hobnob. The thing is that STS was entered into the BCC. The owners quickly pulled him out once they saw the opposition, namely wonder mare Zenyatta.
@Newworldman66 I accept correction on the King George Newworld but still the reality is he lined up in the Guineas, Derby and Arc. Top 3 year olds avoid the KG as a matter of routine now. He appeared in 6 top class Group one races.
You can't really knock Sea the Stars on what he's done but he has had the run of the race in his last 2 starts.
There was no pace in the Derby where there were doubts about him staying & yet Kinane rode him up with the pace as if he WOULD stay, whereas some of the O'Brien horses were ridden off the pace, like Rip & Conduit were here, which defies belief really & Rip did look like making a battle of it & would have gone closer if he kept straight, but Fortune had to switched his whip 3 times.
How much would u pay for a foal by Sea The Stars Out Of Zarkava?
Sea the stars was a proper mile and half horse running in a 10f race. He didn't hold Rip van Winkle, he was starting to pull away and recorded a record time in that race.
Whether he would have beaten Frankel over 10f is debatable.
lester price I like STS, one of my favs but he pulled away cause Kinane whipped RvW in the face, STS would have won cozy still though.
The Euro's have some amazing talent this year. Sea the Stars may be the best thoroughbred I've seen in many years. Rachael who? I don't blame his connections for retiring him at the top of his game. But still, Rip Van Winkle, Mastercraftsman, Delegator, Fame and Glory, Gladiatorus, Goldikova, Septimus. The American's are really up against it this year in the Breeders Cup.
Sea The Stars is definitely out of the top drawer. My dream race would be over the Prince of Wales Stakes course and distance with the following runners: Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef, Montjeu, Daylami, Sea The Stars, Sakhee, Fantastic Light, Galileo, High Chapperall, Peinte Celebre, Zarkava and Dubai Millennium. Who would win??!!
Mill Reef
Rip would not have passed Sea The Stars had they gone around another entire circuit...
Azertyuiop32.I also would like to see a rematch but what makes you think rips win at goodwood is any better than his second in the eclipse?Sea the stars always saves something for himself so he will always improve,just look at what he did to rip when he got to his quaters in this race.He wouldn't beat Sea the stars over 5f or 3 miles.
Also Zenyatta will be covered by Sea The Stars when she finishes her season.
Anyone notice that the major reason why sea the stars won this duel is because kinane hit rip van winkle in the face with his whip @ 3:45 - 3:46 you can clearly see Rip motion from being hit in the face
Rip's gonna prove the form is bullet proof and win the Breeders Cup - EASILY
This seems about right.
2 Value bets for the year
Sariska for the Oaks
Rip Van Winkle for the breeders Cup
With decent pacemakers and firm ground a fast time is guaranteed.
Not rubbish at all. After STS won a slowly run Derby John Oxx wasn't at all convinced that 12f was STS's best trip. At that point Oxx still thought of him more of a 10f horse. He pulled him out of the Irish Derby on the morning of the race and completely swerved the KG. Moreover, his main target for the season was clearly stated as the ICS not the Arc. He was only confirmed for the Arc when it became clear that the Arc field was weak and it would be a relatively easy task for STS to win the race
Off generally means running tautology.
The kind of race he ran in this race was the kind of race I really felt Rip Van Winkle would run in the Breeders Cup Classic. Really disappointed with his finish. But Zenyatta was much the best that day.
Fantastic RVW gave it everything but STS had him beaten no matter what.
He reminds me of a great athlete going through the rounds at the olympics,never wanting to lose but only ever doing enough to win.
@thehorsesmouth1991
Not being fussy but Jimmy Fortune actually rode RVW this day, unsure where murtagh was must have been banned or riding in ireland? but that was the closest any of the ballydoyle actually got to beating STS and i do agree that RVW got a slap with kinanes whip but then watching STS next 3 races it looked like he would have beaten them regardless of what happened on this day
Just watch the Juddmonte International back from last season, Are you telling Me STS would have beat Frankel there? Ballydoyle employed 2 pacemakers again and even ran to the far rail to ensure it was a proper test of stamina instead of sticking to the inside. Frankel merely cantered alongside the pack and put 7 lengths between himself and a Gr1 field in the space of a furlong. Like I've said before thats the difference between the two...
Nuff said. ❤️
Good comment Kadir but I do think that STS in a sense was 'toying with him'.Rip was immensely disappointing in the U.S, although I would like to add one thing.He looked good after this run at Goodwood but only o.k at Ascot.The form of this race is outstanding but I don't think he really improved afterwards.This in a sense was down to AOB trying desperately to confirm his 'class' that he didn't stop going on about all season.I wouldn't be surprised if Rip stayed in training.
@zarakhast ....actually think exists yet DB actually had it himself.DB was'being caught at the line'but that seems to be o.k. Heard of the line 'needs his head putting in front on the line'?Why?Because some horses stop when in front beleiving they've done enough.So many horses have this idiosyncrasy and I've ridden some myself having been an apprentice with R.Hannon.Mr.Brooks was such a horse who won the July Cup.Why else would M.Kinane say STS would never win by more than a couple of lengths?
would like to see rip van winkle take on sea the stars again. i think it would be a lot closer than last time but that is not to say i think the rip would win.
As a racing expert you'll know that Leopardstown is a much more testing course than York which is slicker. MC was a miler who didn't quite get home at York, if he had then he'd have won that race. He was toiling in the ICS from about 3f out on more testing ground, so he gets beat by a much bigger margin by STS. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!
@forsoup Kinane didn't take STS 'up another gear'. As RVW got to about half a length off STS, Kinane waived his whip in front of RVW causing him to flinch then veer to his left so checking his momentum. There was no extra burst of acceleration from STS.
well see how he reacts when headed or someone gets upsides him. i was at the 1f pole and you could see the momentum was going to keep him in front as fortune had quickened but wasnt gaining . not really a great older horse to stop him this year. kinane said leopardstown next and ascot swerved. thought a better chance of fim ground at ascot. they need to take on the french in the arc regardless of ground for racings sake or hell always have his detractors. bcturf/classic on the AW at SA?
He definitely had a "turn of foot" that you don't see very many 3yr.old colt's have. He just really accelerated at will. He ran like an older colt IMO.
for me and always sea the stars is an all time great for what he done in those special 6 months... it would not have mattered about speed or who else was in the race.... he was a very clever and talented horse... from what i see of this race mick kinane did not intend to do anything but ride sea the stars...........
How on earth can you say Sea The Stars' turn of foot was overrated?! Hahahahahaha!!!
You just saw Rip Van Winkle absolutely accelerate up on the outside of Sea The Stars so Kinane just took him up another gear and RVW simply had no answer.
7 Group 1's in a row is pretty spectacular considering he 'didn't have something extra'.
I do wonder why STS is considered an all time great when he could just about beat this field, all time greats usually beat their opposition by a good few lengths or win on the bridle.
In the America, when a rival whips another in the face, it is grounds that constitute automatic disqualification. How did the stewards not review this race? It was close enough to warrant an investigation at the least, as RVW was rallying with significant momentum...