Inconsistent and Unfair Shidos in Judo - FIX THE RULES!
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Here are three inconsistencies I've picked up on recently. Any more?
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Bronze medal*
What do you think about the rules for counters
Case 1: I think the set up via "Ko uchi" into the newaza was the difference. It actually looks like he meant to go for a tomoenage and slipped off and got a juji, whereas in the other clip, it almost looks like he just straight pulls guard into a juji.
Case 2: I saw someone stated head placement. The female judoka turned her head and lead with her shoulder it seems, more so than the head, whereas the male Judoka seems to go head straight into the tatami.
Case 3: I..... yeah got nothing, I don't know about that one.
I agree on Case 1 completely
The difference with the second case comes with the placement of the head. Shmailov and Pont use the side of their head while Peter uses the front. Using the front of your head is more dangerous than the side? I guess that is the difference. Btw love your video's !!
I’ve always been told to tuck my chin and not put my head on the opposite side you’re rotating on. Paltricks looks way safer…
@@JudoHighlights2015 I have heard the same about turning the side your throwing on. I agree Shmailov's is dangerous. He is turning his head opposite to the direction of rotation. Pont's was the safer side I think and is legal within the rules as she is rotating not going over her head. The final one with Peter Paltchik is quite hard to see on the camera. It looks pretty much like Ponts to me from this angle but if it is the forehead as the original commenter said then it'd be illegal.
I think it's interesting what you said about giving Shmailov the benefit of the doubt as he was defending. Potentially that is the most dangerous time to head dive as you're not fully in control of the movement, equally if someone throws you face first you wouldn't expect to be penalised for it. A deliberate head dive to block should be illegal but how you would asserts in that in the moment is beyond me.
As usual love the video and your thoughts are really interesting to listen to.
@@JudoHighlights2015 i agree on you. But look at ono's uchi mata's around 2016. He hits his head sideways to the tatami. I spoke one of the ijf referee (dutch one) about how that was allowed and diving is hansoku make. He said that how the head placement towards the tatami makes the difference
@@JudoHighlights2015 in regards to the head diving rule it applies only when going straight over the head if there is any rotation onto your shoulders it’s perfectly legal
I'm old, I was current with Judo regulations in the 60's, I was a referee in the mid 70's. I see far more matches decided by who had the fewer shidos and far fewer decided by who got legitimate ippons. When they decided not to judge an ippon by fully on the back with force and technique I believe they opened everything up to whim.
That shido on peter was total bullshit, lets not forget about the fact that it took them 30 sec to decide it was a head dive even tho after closer look theres reason to believe otherwise
I honestly couldn’t believe it. He fought so well that day
I am a referee at a local level. I’m no expert but here is my take on the ne waza entry: When cases did it, he used his tomoe nage to get uke into ne waza. Uke were on his knees with hands (I think) on the tatami. The Georgian however never got uke into ne waza. Uke was in tachi waza. And when you apply a ne waza technique in that hybrid state it is illegal.
correct.
So maybe the Shido terminology is incorrect. He was given a Shido for illegal newaza entry, but it should be more like “applying newaza techniques to a standing opponent” maybe
I think the rulings for shidos might be bent very wide for some fights. Judging from after the Paris Olympics 2024 I believe there are absurd inconsistencies in the way how shidos are given. Here is what I have been chewing on from after Paris 2024 comparing the Mixed Team fights of Igor Wandtke (GER) vs. An Baul (KOR) and Abe Hifumi (JPN) vs. Joan-Benjamin Gaba (FRA).
Wandtke received a third shido for passivity after a period of ~30 seconds not attacking (and he had two good attempts before this period). Thought this came from the overall attempts of attacks where Baul scored 6 good ones while Wandtke was at 3.
However, comparing Abe vs. Gaba there were 12 (13) attempts from Abe and 3 (5) attempts from Gaba after 7 minutes of fighting (numbers in brackets includes attempts I wasn't sure whether they were counting or not). Neil Adams commented something about a reset for Golden Score, so I counted those 3 minutes individually and came up with 6 attempts from Abe against only 1 solid attempt from Gaba. There was an over 2 minute period where Gaba hasn't done anything while Abe tried to score 6 times on him. Still, no third shido given to Gaba.
It's a very, very wide range for passivity shidos here. So, rather late to the party but I do agree with that we need to fix our rules in Judo.
Theres a big difference,the second instance there is direct entry,no leg play or a sign of tomoe nage
I think some judokas are « protected », when they’re fighting home especially. Is it something conscious or not, it is hard to tell..
But indeed it creates inconsistancy and doubt about what can or can’t be done !
Good observation and examples, i totally agree whith your analysis.
By the way great overall content I watch almost all your videos, I’ m finally going to follow you, I always forget to do so.
Haha cheers man. I should look into it. Home game number of Shidos for home judoka vs the rest.
In that first example I don't think there's any issue honestly. My coach competes in world masters every year and is a tomoe nage specialist who routinely wins matches with that exact combination. Alot of these refs are the same people as well. No clue what is going on
Yeah this should totally be allowed. Shido the guy If his attack was ineffective, but don’t take away an ippon from someone!
@@JudoHighlights2015 yeah hopefully the rules continue to be simplified. Now explaining to beginners who go to compete can be a bit confusing for them in the heat of the moment.
Also your content is amazing I love all the break downs and analysis! Thanks for all your hard work!
The difference is that casse actually applies a technique (ko uchi Gari) and the goes into ne waza. While grigilashvilli does not apply tomoe nage. I think Neil Adams actually commentated on this incident.
Murao threw against the joint in the 2nd clip of him which is why he gets a hansokumake. It was a throw attempt. In the first one he applied an armbar and his opponent stood to get a matte. When the opponent is on their knees and you're standing, you have to option to try throw or enter into newaza with an armlock or whatever. However if your are throwing, the rules about not throwing using a joint lock apply.
So an opponent can exit newaza by standing, therefore nullifying all submission attempts?
@@JudoHighlights2015Yes, standing with the opponent. The referee will call matte IF the defender can lift the opponent off the ground.
Case 1 (arm bar) first guy has feet control established on the body upon entry and manipulates his opponent into the submission, whereas the second guy is effectively pinned on his back, but then throws his legs up to catch the guy standing above him.
correct.
I've loved Judo since childhood and the most frustrating aspect of the sport is by far the shido calls. The shidos Ultra complicated protocol is a massive barrier for entry to the sport and even a greater barrier for television appeal. I would get rid of about 90% of the Shido calls perpetrated by modern referees trying to orchestrate the match!
The main use of shido should be ring outs! Any step off the competition area should be immediately penalized by a shido but as the rules stand you might get a Shido for stepping out or your opponent might get a shido for shoving you out so it's the greyest of areas at this point in history! So many matches are decided by shido it's becoming comical... Judo needs to learn from its Big Brother Sumo how to handle the ring out, it's obvious that Sumo produces some of the most spectacular throws in sport history because of the ring out protocol... Judo could learn a lot from its Big Brother!
Yeah the “who pushed who” is ridiculous
@@JudoHighlights2015 exactly they have to remove the edge of mat politics and replace it with something very simple. An instant penalty would change the dynamic of the contest and create much bigger throws rather than a confusing scenario the referee must interpret
Judo rules are getting crazy
A judo association that excludes wrestling jiu-jitsu skills
Is the Judo Association a coward?
I think leg grabs should return but it should be similar like in rugby. You can’t lift people above a certain. The thing with the gi is it makes it easier to lift people and harder to escape. Combined with the skills of a judoka, you get these massive throws on peoples necks. I heard a story of a guy breaking someone’s neck the other day (before the rule changes). But I think we should include them somehow
@@JudoHighlights2015 about the leg grabs i agree it s a shame that they removed it. In my opinion it should comme back and concidered as an "unconventional grip". That rule should be applied just as it is for pistol grip etc. You can catch it but you have to attack
In case 1 neither should be a shido, Grigalashvili started with a tomoenage which was defended thus resulting in a newaza entry so it should have been an ippon. In case 2 the difference is that the female judoka is diving on her shoulder and not taking the weight on her neck whereas the male judoka dove head first and is having the weight directly on his neck.
For case 3 i have no answer, wtf is that... the first one was correct when it was a mate since it was newaza when he started applying the arm lock and became tachiwaza when the opponent lifted murao, the second one makes absolutely no sense for a hansokumake. Even if the situation was tachiwaza the arm was not being extended in the transition, it's perfectly legal to use an arm as a lever in the transition as well as in tachiwaza if a lock isn't being applied which in this case clearly wasn't so the call from the referees is just bad.
1.) Armlock is only allowed in Ne-Waza. Casse: Tori and Uke are definitely in Ne-Waza. Additionally this combination (Tomoe-Juji) is well known.
Grigalashvilis opp is in Tachi Waza (just a small touch of his knee to the ground doesnt make it Ne-Waza). I´m not up to date as referee, i´m questioning, if Shido is OK. (Edit: Shido for false attack might be the reason, which then ... brings him to an armlock and Ippon - which he do not deserve (advantage due to illegal action)) instead of Mate and Shido from the ref.
In general, the referee has to Mate asap in such case. And Tori has to release asap.
The main problem is, the Main Referee saw the action differently and gave the Ippon and was overruled, which is OK.
3.) Murao hast to release instead of continuing the armlock, if Uke is in Tachi-Waza, which is obvious for Murao as well, so Hansokumake should be the refs decision.
Problem here, the ref was to slow, commanding Mate.
2.) Headdiving isnt Shido, its direct Hansokumake. Its about selfprotecting your neck, so its forbidden. Rolling over your shoulder is allowed, but not diving straight with your head into the Tatami. Paltchik is obvious, Penalty is correct.
Pont is clearly on her shoulder (even at this angle),
Shmailov is "facediving", looks dangerous to me as well (look at the overstrechted neck) and should be Hansokumake. If defending or not doesnt matter, its his attack in a forbidden way, an automatic reflex, which shouldnt be trained in this wrong form.
Correct me, if i´m wrong!
correct .
I think you explained all of this perfectly.
Shmailov i think could be argued that it looked like he fell to his face due to his opponent’s defense and perhaps it wasn’t an intentional move to assist the throw
#1 the Shido was for illegal newza entry. Isn’t that regarding the tomoe nage set up ?
My problem is that it should be allowed if it was intentional as well. If people develop that kind of Uchimata, then let them do it. It’s their choice. They must do it a lot in practice and I’m sure a few injuries in practice would deter them from doing it. I don’t think it’s as dangerous as doing it defensively
So #3 should be hansoku make, but he got away with a matte lol
In the first case Casse set the armbar up via a ko-uchi, the second guy kinda jumped straight into guard.
Preface: I like watching the commentary live stream because Neil Adams does a great job explaining the rules and nuances of the decisions.
Case 1: Casse used ashi waza and then the yoko tomoe nage to bring the opponent to the ground before he locked the juji (which Neil said was a prime example of how to execute tomoe-juji) . While Grigalashvili didn't break uke's balance with his tomoe nage (can be classified as a false attack) and went straight to juji.
Case 2: I think Pont may have been given the benefit of the doubt since she landed slightly at an angle, while Paltchik landed on the top of his head.
Case 3: Not sure hehe! In my opinion, in both instances Murao should have been hansokumake'd.
I agree. The case from last year there was no preliminary attack to get into the lock, whereas Casse attacked with the ko uchi, hit the ground and did the lock
I disagree about #1 and I’m not sure about #2. The Shido was for illegal newaza entry. The entries were identical imo
I think if grigalashvili rolled him into a juji it wouldn’t have been a Shido. This is what I’m saying. They decide things after the fact instead of in the moment.
@@JudoHighlights2015 oh illegal newaza entry, I missed that part. Maybe because Casse got a foot on the torso (there was a better camera angle) while Grigalashvili didn't or he just went too fast? Yeah it's hard to tell
@@JudoHighlights2015 i agree they rely on the video replay heavily these days. To be fair, they do get a lot of calls RIGHT than before, but during Tel Aviv 2022 there were a lot of scores that were disallowed but 5mins later another judoka does the same thing and gets the score... It's kind of a mess, the refereeing needs to be more consistent.
btw love the videos, keep them coming!
In case 2 (the head diving), the female's head was not the leading cause for the move's success where the guy's would have failed horribly without spiking his head for leverage. I dont know the rules, but it would be sensible if they could decide with consistency what was consequential or not.
When I was on Dave Roman's podcast we talked about the Pont head dive in the Paris GS. Weird the inconsistencies, also the tachi waza newaza thing is all over the place
I should start listening to that
wht you think about the ono's uchimata head dive in tokyo olympics quarterfinal against orujov?
He does head diving Uchimata a lot so he’s going to have to adjust
Hey this is a random question. But does anyone know why Sasaki Takeshi didn't compete in Paris. He was registred but then removed.
Great video! Very nice idea
Ty
For the first case there is an attack first and the de submission
case 3 (Joint manipulation), the first guy has an armbar locked in deep, the opponent rotates to escape. the Second one, no control is established and an awkward twist becomes available during a scramble.
In 3 i don’t think there was any intent to arm bar him, he wanted to score, the refs just decided his body was in a position which was joint manipulation
In tomoenage, the foot has to push against the opponent for it to be a valid throw attempt combined with an entry into newaza. Casse had his right foot on the body as he went for the tomoenage.
Doesn’t grigalashvili as well?
@@JudoHighlights2015I didn't really spot grigalashvili press his foot on opponent's body. It's up to replay review to decide whether he legitimately went for tomoenage. Criteria for legit tomoe is the foot pushing on opponent. If you feint with the foot and instead pull to an armbar, it is seen as a false attack or flying armbar.
I have definitely seen what looks to be bias toward home team athletes lately. Specifically the big European players in judo (France, Belgium, UK)
And Japan at the Olympics…?
My judo is "Old Judo" so my perspective is "aged", but in the first example the Judoka are in different positions in relation to the tatami, one is standing and attempts an attack against a player already on the ground, akin to a "Flying armbar" which has been illegal for decades I believe. In all penalties, two of three judges must agree (at least it used to be that way) so apparently two of the judges felt the same way. The first example, both judoka are the same relative to the tatami and hence the weight of the attacker isn't dangerously applied to the joint...it's a safety point, not a fairness issue. On the second example of "head diving", in the "Old Days" it wasn't illegal, Judokas routine trained to fall into a Wrestler's Bridge to avoid an Ippon, it was made illegal (thankfully), but the second examples are all "head dives".
1) cass did a legit tech that brought him into ground work… other match dude attempted a sacrifice throw… in the first the Ukes feet move…. In the second Ukes feet do not move… so it has to be about not creating adequate kuzushi…
You almost have to wonder if big organizations like inconsistent penalties because they can manipulate the contest that way😐
Just bring back the 2000s rules, with today's scoring system
Now we’re talking!
Lothar Huke explained these instances pretty completely. No need to stir up unnecessary outrage over claims of favoritism
Who? And where?
1:05 The difference is that the referee hasn't seen the tomoe nage she was not properly placed.
They should bring back standing armlocks
I don’t see why not
I agree
A on #2… 1,dude got smashed on his head … 2, girl head dived while throwing but think it was more on shoulder… 3, looked like head dive.
3) maybe it’s the attempt to pull back on the shoulder vs actually isolating the arm and trying the elbow…
I can’t find anything in a document that talks about how people can head dive. The new rule video just says head diving and doesn’t talk about the shoulder
all the explanations are in the rules. I know the document is huge, but you should really try reading it, would probably take less time than it took for you to clip and edit this video. Yes there are inconsistencies, but stuff like "i don't know when it is newaza" is in the rulebook and also explained during commentary plenty of times.
case 1: he did ashi waza first which brought the guy off balance before he comboed into a drop to newaza which constitutes as one technique, you can't just tomoe nage drop into a juji.
case 2: first guy was pushed onto his face by opponent trying to counter, pont's case was definitely supposed to be hansoku make
case 3: inconsistent, but you are only considered to be in newaza when all 4 limbs have either hand, elbow, knees touching the ground.
Got a link to the updated rule set?
@@JudoHighlights2015 they will prob release the full document with updated rules soon. but all the basic rules about when is it newaza etc that have been around for a while should be in that document
@@syn3rgyz I honestly can’t find an official document
@@syn3rgyz can’t find anything 😂
@@JudoHighlights2015 looks like youtube removed my comment with the link.... you can find it on IJF website under documents, IJF Sport and Organisation Rules (SOR) - 08.07.2020 - ENG (Sport Commission)
They ruined this sport. It's such a joke. Literally 2018 was the biggest joke rule joke after no leg grabs. They banned standing submissions. Banning standing submissions causes way too many inconveniences and inconsistency out the ass. Then they ban the reverse seoi nage. The rules in judo do not allow for creativity. It's too much he said she said type scenario. That 2018 rule needs to be reverted if anything. No need to have it not allowed in standing
I think some rule changes were good. The game seems less passive now. But they can’t ruin creativity and make it “too safe”
man... judo rules are so weird
The referee is the cheater this is clear in the video lmao
Yeah rules need to get fixed, i would say, to stop with those bullshit rules and go back at how it was previously. My coach and other black belts (refs and coaches) in my dojo keep complaining about this changes and h-how Judo is being erased by non Judokas to become something different, and all the inconsistencies even in regional and colour-belts tournaments.
It’s bullshitttt
All new rules destroy JUDO if i stil fight i quit for sure no fun all good teknic banned
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