What Are Lagrange Points?
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- Опубліковано 9 лип 2018
- I break down the nature of Lagrange Points, and their applications in Sci-Fi.
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Battlezone II Music by Carey Chico
Sci-Tech Intro Features Animated Elements by SKIBBZ.
Spacedock does not hold ownership of the copyrighted materiel (Footage, Stills etc) taken from the various works of fiction covered in this series, and uses them within the boundaries of Fair Use for the purpose of Analysis, Discussion and Review. Produced by Daniel Orrett. Owner/Executive Producer at Spacedock. - Розваги
-Explains potentially confusing subject very well
-Gives potential applications for literature and reality
-Funny ending
I love these videos!
I feel like he didn't really explain any of this... I still have absolutely no idea how Lagrange points 2, 3, 4, and 5 work. All I know about them from watching this is that they exist. No explanation at all.
@@MichaelDavis-zu2ko Gravitational forces of both Earth and Sun cancel out at these points (both attract the object with equal force, so neither of both can attract it harder than the other).
He explains it here 0:58
He is using L1 only as an example, but this applies to all Lagrange points.
But he speaks too quickly.
1:20 "equidistant from the sun and the earth"?
@@_Killkorbut how does it cancel out at L4 and L5 if the vector sum of the fields still point inwards the orbit?
As I watch this and at this very moment of these historic times, the James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has successfully launched and completed the separation from Ariane 5! I appreciate the explanation of the Lagrange points in fine and simple terms.
I was going to say. Who is watching this 3 years after it was published and just days after the James Webb telescope was launched and successfully deployed.
Same here mate, same here
The Mobile Suit Gundam series makes heavy use of the Lagrange points. The Earth/Luna Lagrange system has been colonized with O'Neill Cylinder style stations.
Gundam Wing was the first time I heard the word Lagrange point.
If I'm not mistaken, the PLANT colonies are at L4, right?
I would watch an unhealthy amount of an astrophysics channel run by Dan and Alasdair!
Sauce?
i agree, the guys nail the science and sound awesome while doing it
Nick Walsh, not going to lie you got me there.
He glossed over some really cool, but not exactly relevant nuances, so I too would love to see a deeper dive. It's not just a matter of balancing 2 gravity wells. It's a balance of 2 gravity wells, plus the velocity of the objects at the L points. I think I got partial credit for this homework question, back in Classical Dynamics, but I do remember it being something of a bear to prove out.
L3 is useful in sci fi to monitor the blind spot behind the sun. So that an enemy fleet can't 'come out of the sun' to attack earth. You would use 4 or 5 to bounce the signal to Earth.
Jim Humphries what? If a sci go fleet can use ftl why would it need to do anything but pop out right on top of earth? Maybe plot holes have aliens hiding motherships in places..
Wouldn't need anything there, as L4 and L5 both have line of sight to L3. Problem solved.
Maybe even get the picture of the dark side of the sun some day.
@@EzioDeCreeper *Pink Floyd intensifies*
@@moguldamongrel3054 Given FTL is impossible (as far as our current understanding of physics goes), it's pretty feasible to say that FTL couldn't function inside of a solar system due to gravitational disturbance.
Or, alternatively, realistic space battles are held at very long distances so popping out next to a planet might be a bad move strategically. Hiding behind the sun might provide any number of tactical benefits.
It's all made up...there are many reasons you could write into a story explaining why hiding behind the sun makes sense.
So what you're saying is we need to nuke L3 right now?
Fucking Zekes need to have a colony dropped on them see how they like it.
patsfreak it's the only way to be sure
You kids today. Nuke! Nuke! Nuke! Like a broken record.
your soul is held down by gravity
+Barry Lucas
Mwah, good old fashion Colony Drop would be fine! Nukes are for amateurs.
The Lagrange Points are where most of the colonies "Sides" are in Gundam.
Correct. I never heard of them until I started watching Gundam. Whose says anime with giant robots can't be educational?
Well 5 of them, but what are the other 2?
@@battlesheep2552 Side 1 and Side 4 are located at Lagrange Point 5 (“L5”); Side 2 and Side 6 are at L4; Side 3 is at L2; Side 5 and Side 8 are at L1; Side 7 is at L3.
Each Side actually consists of multiple space stations each orbiting the Lagrange Point. For example, Side 3, consisted of at least four habitat cylinders and numerous military and industrial stations.
Sieg Zeon!
@@ianshaliczer How do they orbit around the lagrange point? Wouldn't they need a gravity well in the center of that orbit?
@@GiubileiFernando I won’t even pretend to understand the math behind it, but it’s my understanding that Lagrange Points are positions in space where the gravitational forces of a two-body system like the Sun and Earth produce regions of attraction and repulsion that basically forms “hills and valleys.”
Y’know the old coin collecting funnel that every children’s museum uses to illustrate (in a 2D plane) how the sun’s gravity bends spacetime? Well, In a two-body system like the earth and sun, there are points where the points where the gravitational potential is curving up in one direction and down in the other and vice-versa.
So an object will be “falling out” of one body’s influence and at the same time it’s “falling into” the others.
This is a really bad attempt by me, a total layman, to repeat what I read elsewhere. By all means, seek out an actual scientist (or at least a more knowledgeable amateur) to explain it better.
At the Langrange points humanity can be free, it's soul no longer held down by gravity.
SIEG ZEON!
"As soon as 2021, the James Webb Orbital Space Telescope is scheduled to be deployed..."
*cries*
I think you should cry even more now due to Coronavirus...
Oh man, this hits differently *in* 2021.
Damn,it hits really hard as well
Ah yes, the James Webb Ground Object.
@@spritemon98 You're a time traveler, Harry!
4 and 5 seem like good places to set up asteroid harvesting stations
Indeed it would. If and when asteroid mining really kicks off, you can bet that corporations are going to try and secure plots of space at 4 and 5. Especially L4 and L5 around Jupiter's orbit, where there are a lot of Trojan asteroids waiting to be cracked open.
0:16 I thought you were gonna say Gundam tbqh.
SS_777 he's only recently gotten into anime as he has never watched them before watching cowboy bebop and planetes
Planetes helmet kinda reminds me of Zaft soldiers helmet 😏
You sir just allowed me to develop the space capabilities of my sci-fi civilisation, more notably its shipyards, space control and security satellites, observation and spy satellites, mega stations and so much more! Your work on Spacedock has allowed me to develop and enhance my sci-fi project on multiple occasion and for that, I want to say thank you very much!
L4 and L5 look like good locations for resource gathering. With all 5 points in use it would make for a good early warning system and wide range communication system. L2 would make a great location for a ship yard.
I would say L2 is probably more appropriate as a midway point between the two bodies in the system, rather than a shipyard. Say a customs office between the Earth and Luna, as we could use it to launch people to it (less delta-V than direct to Luna), then have spacecraft already there that go from L2 to Luna. Could also use it as a way of relying on Luna for slingshot manoeuvres.
Agree. If L4 and L5 are like Jupiter one's we can have some mining stations there gathering and using asteroid which go to there.
Angryboy as a ship yard it would be able to do everything that you listed by default. Everything needed to do what you mentioned would be part of any major ship yard or docking facility.
Dave J L2 could be used as the anchor point for a massive orbital defense platform (like in halo) with sufficient scanning equipment whereas L1 could be used as a solar observatory/communication post. L3 can be used as an early warning system in case of an extrasolar incursion. L4 & 5 can be used as orbital shipyards and low gravity barracks with their fair share of armament. Combine that with a gun array in the moon, and you have a basic defense for your solar system.
Yea, bu to be very specific and sorry for that... will be Earth's orbit perimeter. To have a warning system for the *entiry* solar system you need a breackthrough in sensors or "LRSP" (long range sensor platforms) around the system...
if an enemy comes and stablish in one of the planets beyond mars we don't even notice, and from there a massive move against us and... we toast!.
I always wondered what L2 and L4/5 Earth stations in Mass Effect mean, now I know. Thanks Spacedock :)
And knowing is half the battle!
The was a PC game back in the 90s the utilized the lagrange points as FTL jump positions. Had something to do with needing to have no outside gravity interfering with the jump for it to work. I forget the game's name though (It has been a couple of decades :) ).
Corwin Hyatt that actually makes sense
That was I-War, there were three games in the series and Spacedock would probably like them for being pretty grounded space combat games
I believe you are refereeing to I-War (Independence War, in the US) by the developer Particle Systems, no?
Actually, there is no such point in space where you are not affected by gravity. Every object in the universe are affecting every point, even if most of the time this means a very tiny amount of force.
@ Laszlo True yet Lagrange points are where gravity's effects are basically at their lowest within a system, in some sections of L4 and L5 being completely negated by the opposing fields.
0:16
and where every colony ever in any gundam show is.
L3 can be useful, if you put something up in L4 and/or L5 to act as relays to Earth.
L2 is seriously important for astronomy tho since the light of the sun will always be obscured by the earth and therefore the Lightpolution and heat is minimal compared to any other point in earths orbit.
True. Although L2 is technically in an orbit around the sun, not around earth.
@@jamescollier3 L2 is an orbit around the sun where the object is always behind the earth from the suns point of view. Because it is in a higher orbit, the object should move slower in relation to the sun than earth (earth should take less time to go around the sun than the object). Because the object is behind earth though, the combined gravity of the sun and earth give it more momentum.
At a distance of 1m miles, the JWT will not be obscured by Earth from the Sun. That's why they need to have a sun screen
While not applicable at the moment would that also make it useful for long distance communications? Reduced background radiation and other problems that could cause"static?"
Respect. Planetes was a outstanding and super underrated anime.
Excellent Episode.
To expand slightly for those interested in the importance of these free-body system points: L4 and L5 in both Earth-Sun and Earth-Moon configurations are perfect places for very large construction and habitat facilities not only because they make for easy transit from Earth, but also because shipments from other locations such as Ceres or 16 Psyche (believed to be a highly metallic protoplanet core) directed at these points could easily arrive with low energy trajectories without having to worry about endangering Earth, near-Earth-orbit facilities, Luna or Lunar orbit facilities with a potential misfire/missed trajectory insert by an automated system. This would allow us to theoretically transfer large amounts of materials from these other locations without requiring onsite personnel, instead sending automated mining systems and in-situ resource recovery systems to construct, harvest local fuel, and send material to the L4 and L5 points where their proximity to earth allow for near real-time telepresence oversight of complex construction tasks.
Ceres, for example, has a very large water-ice content and has lots of rock and minerals suitable for constructing interior surface features of habitats such as O'Neill or McKendree Cylinders (habitable interior surface area roughly equal to Russia (13 million square kilometers), or even modified Standford Torus constructs. Meanwhile 16 Psyche's high metal content means we could build super structures for several billion O'Neill cylinders. If we use active support systems, we could even approach cylinder sizes nearing that of the McKendree Cylinders and build several hundred thousand of them. Carbon is the 6th most common element in our solar system and the greater universe. If we develop over the next few hundred years the capacity to use the fullerine allotropes of carbon that align with carbon nanotubes, we could build millions of McKendree cylinders from the available carbon in the asteroid field and jovian moons alone.
Space is unimaginably, mindbogglingly big. And the amount of stuff out there, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, makes Earth look like a pale blue dot of dust caught in a sunbeam.
Lagrange Points are locations where ZZ Top concerts are being held, livestreamed or played back from recording.
This is the best explanation of Lagrange Points I have ever seen - and I've watched dozens of documentaries that discuss the subject.
First heard of Lagrange points in Mass Effect.
Another great vídeo.
👍👍👍👍👍
Thank you spacedock this has been an ich I've been trying to scratch for months.
I learned about the concept from Freelancer. The Rheinland station "The Ring" was built at the Lagrange point between Planet New Berlin and it's moon.
I'd love to see more stuff like this. I need to boost my knowledge of space-stuff.
I still find odd that the L-points are ignored in almost every Astronomy class I took.
It is an interesting concept because the uniqueness of the orbits on those areas.
Ahh, thanks for this, I've often wondered what the importance of Lagrange Points were in many Sci-Fi shows and movies....
"Home, home on Lagrange/ Where the space debris always collects,/ We possess, so it seems, two of Man's greatest dreams/ Solar power and zero-gee sex." -- William Higgins and Barry Gehm
Our ball bearing are perfectly round...
Thank you Daniel for doing this one, and giving some clarity on it for those that might not understand the basics of an L point. Actual space exploration of course has been using them for many years. Lagrange Points are indeed real, and they're pretty damn cool things.
Some may have heard about the SOHO and its mission, but now we're hearing more about Lagrange Points again, as the James Webb is on station keeping at the L2 behind the Earth.
This is such an awesome idea for your channel! I absolutely enjoyed this. Please consider doing more of these sort of summaries of scientific terms. Keep up the great work!
Thank you for this short explanation. I just saw a video about the JWST and in it it mentioned the L2 point. Now I understand more of it. So.. Thanks!
U explained this 3 years back! And now people are searching about L2 because of james webb! U r amazing!!
I think this concept is really interesting. I'm currently writing a Sci Fi book and I think the Lagrange points will be a very cool adittion to the plot (specially L3). Thanks for this awesome video. I really love this channel and I wish you the best of luck with your Sci fi series. Live long and prosper!
I first came across the term when I was playing I-War, a great space sim/fighter game albeit bloody hard to play, really needed a multi crew to mange all the systems.
By place a comms satellite at L4 or L5 the further L3 could be easily used !
I was thinking something similar. I set up my comms networks in Kerbal Space Program in a similar configuration, for interplanetary missions. I'm not sure how it would play out in the real world/universe, though.
My though exactly. You could also probably use them as long range orbital defense platforms.
There's nothing stopping that L3 point being used, but there's no particular advantage to using it either, it's unstable, far away from earth and not particularly close to anything else (at least not permanently). In comparison L1 and L2 are fixed points close to earth (L1 would be a good point to set up solar power satellites to power earth for example) and L4 and L5's main advantages are that they're stable, and could act as logistical hubs to and from earth.
Corey Micallef that's why my secret alien base is there..... 😝😝
Corey Micallef L1 would be a great place to place solar shades to cool planets. Not sure about doing it to Earth, but Venus and Mercury would be great candidates.
Do more episodes like this, you have the perfect setup for explaining potentially confusing topics found in science fiction.
Very informative, good work! The humor is definitely an entertaining part too.
Excellent video! Thorough explanation and interesting.
Daniel, I love your content and your style. I’d listen to you describe anything space-related, sci-fi or not.
Oh wow. With what I knew from basic orbital mechanics i dismissed those large navy-esque space battles as impossible. But these Lagrange points, they may be actual contested territory between two spacefaring armies.
This is the best video about where to place stations in space based on science fiction ever!
James Webb!! Cheers and thanks bro. Merry Christmas and happy holidays Daniel!! Wishing bon voyage to JWST!!
This is super geeky, and I love it. Keep up the good work! :D
Ah, why do aliens always have to be a menace to Earth?
Luca Simoncini never trust the xeno
Because we have oceans, beautiful women to kidnap and this emotion called Love
@ weldonwin And who says that they don't have that too? Maybe they're even more spiritually advanced than makind.
then we would be heretics to them
@ MrGalagoth Heretics oppose to a belief in a religion. Spirituality has nothing to do with religion. We would just be savage to them. And in fact that's the reason why we have never been formally contacted by other civilizations.
I first heard of Lagrange Points in the pc game Independence War. Thanks for the explanation!
Same here, the L-points are where the jump gates are located in any particular system in that series. That's when I first learned about them, followed by the Stephen Tracy novel "L5: Behind the Moon" (named so because L5 trails behind the moon's orbit, while L4 is ahead of the orbit), and finally in the Mobile Suit Gundam franchise where their space colonies are located at the assorted points scattered around.
Great vid, Daniel. Thanks!
Learn something new every day!
As much as I love sci-fi, the practical science of space travel is equally compelling. Thanks for this!
This was such an excellent video. As a long time patron I say feel free to do as many real science videos as you please. 💜
Sci-fi application ideas:
L1: Solar-powered ultra high power installation, such as antimatter factory (for propulsion and weapons) or supercomputational center (for cracking enemy encryption)
L2: Defensive mega-telescope with ultracold sensors for spotting heat from ships running dark (think James Webb on steroids). Also gathering point / shipyard for defensive fleet.
L3: Other solar-powered installation, possibly shading another mega-telescope to patrol the other half of the sky
L4/L5: Loiter point for thermonuclear / relativistic munitions and other first strike-oriented fleet vehicles
Fantastic. I knew about the Lagrange points but only nebulously. This clears that up nicely. Thanks!
Thanks. Really digestible. I’m sure I’ll need more understanding but this is a nice intro to see if one wants to dig more.
This video is so great, it does not need visuals. Heck, it could be in podcast form, and anybody could understand it. :)
Please don't delete this video. Mindblown. Thank you
Thank you for that beautiful outro!
This makes Gundam much easier to understand and why in terms of where events are happening and where characters are going.
I must say, I'm loving the new visual style.
You could easily voice a documentary or educational video on real-life space exploration-related subjects. Well done!
As a physics student I must say that this is by far the best intuitive explanation of Lagrange Points. I understood them mathematically, but I never got them intuitively, thank you. Also, nice that You mentioned Planetes, it's the best anime.
Excellent! clear and concise!
Great video. Well done
Man! I love this site!
Love this. And looking forward to Sojourn.
L3 sounds interesting... Thank you so much for the inspiration!
I like the idea of the Sojourn. I think it will be a fantastic show! Great job Spacedock!
Nice video, very interesting, thanks, Daniel
Awesome!!!
I heard of Lagrange 1 in Jules Verne book "From the Earth to the moon" and other sources...
I never thought about the others Lagrange points, which as you pointed will be very useful for our civilization in the future.
A way to have a colony in L3 in communication is to another 2 colony's in L4 and L5. :)
Thanks for the video, I Love it!
Thanks for the explainer. I'm a big fan of BattleTech and this explains well how jump points work within the universe fiction.
More of these kind of vids would be great
What a interesting thing I learned today. Thanking video for making such knowledge ble videos.
A didactic rendition. Brilliant work, Daniel!
Didn't know about 3, 4 and 5. That's really, really cool.
Great video, as always. And extra like for mentioning Planetes )
I liked this one even more then usual grate job.
I love these informative videos.. Would be awesome if you do more of them
Awesome. Thanks Daniel.
1) L1,2,3 points aren't exactly 'stable'. They do require thrusters to maintain the position. It is just that the balanced forces from the two objects means that there is a lot LESS fuel needed.
Yes wouldnt the moon interfere with l2?
Fascinating and very informative.
Already knew this. Sci-Fi buff. 🤗😀
But different style of vid for you. Good concise, clear explanation. Great vid as usual. Hopefully you continue this sequence.👏👍
When we go interplanetary, or interstellar the moon's L4 and L5 points would be great positions for shipyards.
Plus it's L1 for intra lunar communications (equivalent to geo-sync), earth to lunar comms and traffic control/rescue. Lastly via L4 or L5 the L2 could do the same for the farside.
Perhaps you could explain orbital monouvers in a similar vein. Aiming/thrusting up to move forward around an orbit (eg docking monouver)) and vice versa. Or thrusting aiming/thrusting backwards to drop to a lower orbit (eg de-orbit burn). And thrusting forward to climb into a higher orbit.😉
It was interesting to listen to this. I'm currently making notes for fiction that will be my own version of the old Space:1999 series and I intend to base the moon's travels around Lagrange points being where wormholes can be formed because of the balanced gravity.
I picked up some of this a long ways back from the I-war series of games, a series Spacedock would probably enjoy as a pretty grounded space combat game. In I-war, ships travel faster than light using a device called a capsule drive, which is disrupted by the pressence of gravity fields, so can only be activated within a Lagrange point.
Thanks for the explanation
that was well explained thank you. i kind of knew what they were, but this cleared it up
Good explanation
There was a series of space sim on PC that used the Lagrange point as jump gates. The series was called I-War (or Independence War in North America). Nice concept!
I had heard the term Lagrange point used in sci fi before, but never had a clue what it meant. The name of the L5 Station in Xenosaga makes total sense to me now.
Finally! Someone explained this!
Very interesting stuff thanks Spacedock, I seem to recall reading the the Earth Spacedock in Star Trek is either L1 or L2
Awesome vid! Totally makes sense to me now why the Ancients in Stargate Atlantis built point defense satellites at the lagrange points of their solar system.
This is the first time I've ever heard of Lagrange Points and I can't understand why! They are amazing concepts and need to be used way more often in scifi. That would be badass!
It's used often. A Lagrangian Station is a very important setting in Neuromancer for example.
Does absolutely anyone remember the underrated but excellent PC game "Independence War"? It was marketed only as a testbed for the pre-nVidia 'Voodoo FX' drivers and effects as "the starship simulator" but the lore and gameplay were solid. In that fiction, LaGrange Points are used as de facto jump points for ships' FTL drives (called Capsule Drives in lore) because of the gravitational neutrality. Earth's L1 point is monitored by 'SaltLake STC' which also marks the first time I heard 'Space Traffic Control' used in a sci-fi, now standard in series such as The Expanse and others. Was such a good game, LaGrage points immediately made me remember it!
Thanks daniel ,that was helpful.
Thank you for explaining that!
Now, can you explain how that sound-reactive logo works?
That's very cool!
I guess Star Trek would not be considered "more grounded Sci-Fi", however, there is an episode of The Next Generation in which a Lagrange Point was mentioned. In the phenomenal episode, "The Survivors" in the 3rd season, an alien ship that had allegedly destroyed a Federation colony was said by Commander Riker, to have been hiding in a Lagrange Point as the Enterprise had not detected it when it entered the star system in question.
That is a very odd use of a Lagrange point, considering that Lagrange points are simply locations in space. There's no way, barring extremely coincidental orbits, that a ship could remain hidden in a single L-point from a ship traveling through the system at FTL velocities.
To clarify things, Riker said something to the effect of: "Apparently the alien ship was hiding in a Lagrange Point off this planet's (The one the Enterprise was orbiting) furthest moon". However, Riker could have been speculating because the ship in question did not actually exist in the episode. It was a copy of the original conjured up by the episode's antagonist.
thanks for this, I may use this in my World Building document that I'm working on
planetes! Loved it!
Thank you that was helpful 👍
Mobile Suit Gundam content coming soon?!
Mother of god... love your videos, my friend!