Actual Solutions to 5v5 and 6v6 in Overwatch 2 - (with Spilo)
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
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#Overwatch - Ігри
Saw this live. One of the most thoughtful, productive conversations in the history of OW. If the devs just hired these two to come up with something the game would be in a great place
haven't even watced any of it yet, but honestly wouldn't expect much less from these two
Just putting any person from the playerbase into the dev team with the ability to make decision would put OW great place. The issues are obvious lol.
Same, was a great watch.
Productive? Lol this won’t change anything. But good convo!
I wish they could put 5v5 and 6v6 as options in the game, but I understand that would be a lot to develop and keep updated/balanced.
Babe wake up, new Samito video dropped with the fate of ow2 on the line.
😂😂 truue
Oh wow, a friendly, productive debate that accurately portrayed both sides and didn't devolve into logical fallacy convention
"6v6 defenders are like people who believe in flat earth" 🤡
@@athonpandopulos5209 Funny thing is... using that argument... wouldn't that imply that 5v5ers like "Frodo Get-That-Blizzard-Baggins" believes the world was once; historically, probably, flat?
@@sparquisdesade idk what that shill believes in anymore tbh
@@sparquisdesadeand this type of comment is why freedo's vídeo had that tone, you guys are really dishonest, even Sam admits freedo is not a shill, but because he disagrees with you it's ok to be unfair towards him, just the internet doing what they do best tbh
@@dgiorr I do believe the misunderstanding you and I are having here is a generational issue. Maybe you don't know the original/correct usage of the word an on;y can gather it's meaning from these internet posts.
As per the dictionary.
"an accomplice of a hawker, gambler, or swindler who acts as an enthusiastic customer to entice or encourage others."
-""I used to be a shill in a Reno gambling club""
""your husband in the crowd could shill for you"
He makes his living solely off videos on that game an that game alone, so quite literally his financial livelihood is tied to it suceeding. He's also done other stuff not a fan of. But I think my comment was the most mild one could make competitively
I honestly love spilo. Would love to see more of him. He's one of the smartest in the field for 5v5
and he's also more neutral
I think he's one of the smartest OW coaches period, i am a certified spilo glazer
Because he doesn't pick any side. He stays between 5v5 and 6v5 cus the man sees through the flaws of both system
These two are just red pill and blue pill to Spilo
He's definitely one of the smartest content creators on the overwatch scene and his rework ideas are great. Everything he says is very articulate and instructive.
Bro Spilo is fantastic
Love that you guys touched on “rose tinted glasses” and “but double shield”. The amount of times I get told I don’t REALLY prefer 6v6 is wild. My presence is 6v6. Can’t even stand to touch tank in this game now.
I wanted 6v6 back a month into OW2, it wasn't nostalgic for me. It was just better and I knew it.
I agree like I was a main tank. Now can’t touch the role
Yep, always hated 5v5
If they just buffed tank, it would be more fun to play, I’m a tank main lol
@@coreywhite6409 the problem is that tank is buffed. tanks are the strongest and most impactful role its just that is FEELS like shit playing the role. It doesn't feel good being a tank.
Getting Spilo for this might have been the best person you could possibly get, you both share different perspectives on which format is better but don’t let you opinions get in the way of the facts like others do
Bro Spilo is fantastic
This conversation is already so beautiful. Thank you 2 for being so respectful and actually being productive. It feels like everyone else’s debates were to argue, not to make the game better
It’s crazy how productive this is when both people are genuinely trying to be constructive and actually discuss the game design itself. Not the endless whataboutism of “queue times” (they never ask WHY nobody queued tank) or “double shield” (was it the 2 tanks or support creep and OW2 hero design in OW1 Sig/Orisa/Bap/Brig) or “GOATS” (we are talking role queue) or “stand at choke” (2CP & map design issue) or “it’s too much work for Blizzard” (meanwhile they could copy/paste the 7HSKW patch and drop 6v6 in 1 day!). Fundamentally, do we believe that better things are possible and want the game to reach its potential, or accept that OW will be perma-mid in the eyes of the gaming public? We’ve needed people to actually have a vision for this game and how good Overwatch looks and should function, instead of just reaction to winrates or community complaints. This is where it starts.
Thank you guys for doing the work. There were a ton of insightful observations when I caught parts of this live, looking forward to seeing the whole discussion (not debate).
None of this is actually productive, 2 ppl with no power or control or ability to actually do something got together and well, did nothing
@@lruddy8820Yeah bro, University lectures don’t do anything because they don’t hold political office and can’t enact change directly. The media has no effect on our society because they’re just talking bro. Clearly.
There is this thing called discourse. The discourse on the issue of 6v6 was braindead and unproductive because many people are not discussing it in good faith or engaging in whataboutism. This discussion progressed the discourse further. That’s all it has to do. I for one found it enjoyable and productive.
@@GraphiteBlimp27 did you just compare this to a university lecture?
@@lruddy8820You are side tracking from the point made that discussion of topics worthwhile in of itself. I would hope you wouldn’t attend college lectures only for a grade.
@@GraphiteBlimp27 the comparison you made is wildly off so your point is invalid, while the point of this chat is discourse the point of a uni lecture is to educate and better prepare the next generation of professionals in our society and not the discourse most uni lectures are one way while this was a two way conversation, uni lectures are usually taught by experts or professionals in that specific field who have been hired to teach students about their views values experiences and education in said field with the power to influence future professionals in that field, this is conversation was between 2 of the millions of voices in the player community who chose themselves to have a discussion while not being professionals in the field of game development or on the overwatch team or even blizzard employee, their voices dont hold that much weight or influence in those circles compared to the other millions of voices in the player community and this conversation didnt sway much in the circles who have the power to actually do something about it so while this was a fun conversation to have and to listen too a phone call to their mothers would of been more productive in the sense of game change, in the sense of content creation gaining views and revenue yea pretty productive, usually the doctor gives the lecture and the students learn, here the patients are arguing amongst themselves
Spilo putting Brigg on his background is so evil 😂
My guy really wanna remind all the 6v6 and OW1 tank mains PTSD
They literally only had to Limit healing to Highest healing instead of letting heals stack.
Thats it and you can keep your brig.
@@kellywilson137 true!
But hey let's dump the old stuff and run away from it 😂
this 2 guys dc call > Group up pogcast
Both? ❤️
@@user-tu8lf3vc6g not when Freedo is talking for 70% of it
@@jasonrodriguez6083or when they let unsaltedsalt babble on about how reinhardt is broken (lol)
pogcast
@@runaway74 🤡 I'd prefer that over freedo's condescending ass
Polar opposite of the youroverwatch video yesterday. Somebody explain how Samito isn’t being directly targeted by creators for just having a different opinion at this point. Samito didn’t create the groundswell for 6v6, horrible game format did, he is just the unelected spokesman for the idea.
literally yeah, I have wanted 6v6 before I even heard about Samito earlier this year
You sure Sam isn't just a whiner? 😂
@@mycelia_ow you clearly can’t digest information if that’s your take away, unless you’ve actually never heard him talk for yourself
@@mycelia_owyou sure you aren’t just not very intelligent?
@@Porutake Obviously 6v6 was better, but he preaches it religiously and endlessly. He's not wrong all in all,
Genuinely one of the best and most productive debates to date. Y’all are very patient when hearing each other out and you guys don’t feed into each other’s emotions and delusions with opinions or fallacies that could end up putting words in the mouths of the other and get in the way and disrupt the debate. We genuinely need more like these in the community.
I watched freedos newest 6v6 vs 5v5 video and this is by far way better, and more informative. Appreciate the content Sam.
Hey there's a reason these two were n still coaching in many Overwatch tournaments meanwhile Freedo, Your Overwatch, is just another ow youtuber 😂
Freelo* he’s trash at the game
@@Osrsw31 Being good at the game, does not mean you know what's good for the game. I'm saying this as a 6v6 supporter, just thought I'd point out, that it has very little relevance.
@@mathiaschristensen1194 And neither does being bad lol
@@mvndoc Never said it did, did I?
Oh...now this is a debate
Yeah man, this is how a debate should be.
The most productive Debate on that topic we have ever had.
And its between 2 people who keep each other accountable, with no real "Nostalgia" attached to the arguments. If every debate would be like this we would have progressed much further already.
THIS IS WHAT WE NEED! Productive and mature conversation formed out of love for the game
Glad to see a debate where both sides are open-minded to different possibilities. Always makes for great discussion
Spilo and Sam, 2 of the best spoken creators out there love to see it !
Great convo. Wish one day the devs would show up for these.
1:46:45 You actually hit an interesting point indirectly here. We didn't just get one fewer tank to get the immo on... there's now _two_ immos for that _one_ tank. The "save" ceiling is like 4x higher which is why support feels absurdly impactful no matter what they change.
Freedo could never sit down and have this conversation
it’s not freedo, it’s the setup of the group up podcast
@@kyle7175 Nah, its freedo. Man gets asked a question like "what would you do to change Dva," and then he rambles for 10 minutes, while only spending 30 seconds on Dva.
@@WhatsaTsurt yeah it’s because it’s the group of podcast. Been watching Your Overwatch for forever, and I just think Freedo likes to theory craft more
Freedo is a problem . Literally the straight guy version of a lgbt community member trying to put their ideals onto people lol
Definitely a Freedo problem. I watch Group Up n it's definitely him@@kyle7175
I genuinely feel like lower health but stronger innate tanking abilities would make tank feel way more rewarding. Their punish windows would be a lot more concrete while at the same time the tank player feels like they have more power in their abilities. You'd actually get to make a decision to either stay alive or try to make a play since your abilities would have more situations where they're viable for getting a kill or providing CC or maybe both.
For me personally I was part of the 6 vs 6 crowd but with Rivals coming out I'm just going to play Marvel
The latest freelo video on 6v6/5v5 was so severally undercooked.
i thought it was pretty thorough and well constructed, it just seems like freedo can sometimes be bad at really looking critically at his own points and really taking into account how important the fun value of the game is
He cooked your queen bee
@@megamecha100I liked his points but disagreed with most of them. personal preference i guess. also really didn’t like how he was talking down to the audience throughout the entire video. And he was kind of coming off as insecure maybe? starting by giving his whole resume and hiding behind definitions and “argument tactics”
@@AntivenomOW "bro visited his friend " type comment.
@@sunbear3324 drone type comment
You may not like it, but this is what peak debate content looks like.
6v6 for the win
Oh boy I can’t wait to watch the “last 6v6 debate”
The Last 6v6 Debate: Act 1
@@BlueRiptideAct 1 Chapter 1 😂
@@spoonsVSforksAct 1: Chapter 1 page 1 😭
Yah the next one won't make it in time... game is so boring and no skill 5v5. Who even plays it anymore?
Loved this man, positive and thoughtful takes.
Ironic that most of Samitos 6v6 fans are tank players but samito wants 6v6 back so that he can kill them more easily
coz its not about how easy we are to kill. its about having no space to have fun with what we want due to a variety of factors that were OFFSET by a second tank that could fill that role. if the trade off for player choice is less health ill happily take a health/cooldown hit if it means i can play JQ or reimhardt on whatever map i choose and not have the entire roster or cooldowns thrown st my neck.
It's also for tanks to be able to kill other tanks more easily when you outposition or outplay them.
no more shieldbotting sitting on payload style boys. really looking forward to it.
@@ohm_ow1726never heard of pirate ship meta? It wasn't necessarily good but it was very prominent in the metal ranks
I love these longform discussions. Fun watch all the way through.
We live in a really weird time where brig is no longer the posterchild of the problems with this game anymore and more of just a "where bad design philosophy all began"
Bad design started before her. She was just the one that really blew up. Refusal to nerf tracer or Ana really started everything.
@@CruxisAngel954 oh god i remember the nano speed boost lmao PTSD triggered
2 dudes > entire ow team
44:20 well timed Kaplan bomb lmao
watched this live as well. honestly the gaslighting from other players thinking that the devs are "on to something" has to stop. The loyal gamers who have played this game throughout the years deserve better. A big time shake up is what the game needs. bring back 6v6 and "figure it out later" as they once said.
Great video. It's clear you guys' knowledge and understanding of the game is on a whole other level. You mentioned a lot of things I never really thought about before.
Finally a productive and friendly interaction between two people with different opinions.
Oh. This conversation has changed my perspective on Samito. Very well done guys, I’m really impressed with your conclusions and ideas.
this was a great conversation between two people who know so much about a game i love. and have had a love-hate relationship with. new overwatch 2 players dont understand how miserable it was to be an overwatch fan in the 2019-2022 period. the game was being changed in a fundamental way, but so was the company that made it. it was a really tumultuous and hopeless time. the difference now is that the dev team working on this game now are actually EXCITED to tinker with it and make it better, even if that passion is a bit misdirected at times. if we dont scare off this dev team with our rabid fandom i think we might have a game worth building on in the next year or two.
Great convo. Love the mutual respect between these two!
I like how this so much more of a debate than the entire history of the group up podcast's "debates"
Hey guys i am a former overwatch player, When i watched overwatch come out and play the game for the first time. I loved trying new characters and expressing myself through their unique play styles. I played every role but had fun on tank. Genuinely it felt so fun to control the game and feel like you can make plays and dictate how fights turn out. I had a lot of fun climbing through the ranks and meeting fun people. I feel tank is so much less fun now!
Man. I'd say I'm a pretty casual Samito viewer, I watch some vids every now and then but been watching a lot more as time goes on. I know of Spilo a little.
But this video was just good vibes all the way through. Constructive conversations, respectfully disagreeing on some things but giving insight as to why. Like this goes a long way. I already respected Sam because even though he can seem aggro in his vids, he always shows respect to other people, but this made me respect both of them so much more.
Can’t wait for the last debate part 2 to come out
We got the last 6v6 debate before gta 6
2 best OW content creators, real and unfiltered discussion, keep it up gentlemen
6v6 was just way more fun. Not fun shooting an unkillable tank. The only issude they need to fix with 6v6 is removing double shield. Even if they simply copy and paste the old 6v6 balance I will play OW2 again.
My favorite overwatch video. I appreciate the both of you.
Still bring back October 2020 6V6 with proper balance
Very constructive conversation from two smart people. Really a wholesome exchange 🙌
Love the content and please dont give up this fight. It's incredibly important
Such a great video. This is how discussions need to be done, not people yelling over each other and calling each other names. Big respect to both of you guys, heard the name Spilo before but never knew much about him, have mad respect for him after this video. Definitely one of the most mature guys in the Overwatch scene hands down
This was a really chill and productive debate, we need more of people being able to say "I disagreee with you.. but..." and then carry on having a productive conversation.
A couple of points that also inform the 5v5 vs 6v6 debate:
The maps are too large for 10 people.
Having 2 tanks in open queue games feels fine and is often fun to play as or against.
When you guys got to the part about supports having the babysit tanks more in 6v6 I feel like that's part of a relationship dynamic that is mostly gone from 5v5. Tanks needed supports for sustain, supports needed tanks for protection, DPS also needed sustain and could offer protection for their team from other DPS. At the moment the game doesn't have these dynamics as much, like it might as well be team death match where you've got 5 people and no one eneds anyone elses help. I wish the game would lean back to incentivising team synergies, and promoting team work to win the objective rather than everyone just derping around doing their own thing.
Why can't we just have both? I miss some stuff from Overwatch 1 (6v6, Hanamura) but don't want to force everyone to play it. Separate game modes like open queue vs role queue has.
Two of my favorite OW content creators having a great discussion. Good job Sam and Spilo
Thank you both
Love this! ❤ Great job guys and yeah Spilo is a beast and a pillar of the community
An actual Overwatch debate? This is legendary.
Spilo knows his shit 💪
Like the problem with 5v5 is that if everyone is operating in the most efficient way, the game is a boring steamroll. yes there are powerful counterplay options but the team with more momentum has access to those tools as well. teamfights are really fun until the first person dies and then its just a deathball on top of the objective until the game ends. i think even a theoretical perfectly balanced 5v5 where everyone has equal opportunities to make an impact on the match still wouldnt be as fun.
My 2 GOATS of overwatch chatting for 2 hours?!? Hell yeahhh!!!!
My 2 favorite overwatch UA-camrs getting together to talk about fixing the game. This is a avengers level event 😤😤
My two favorite ow content creators in an epic collab
1 in million civilized talk of ow
Haven't really been the biggest samito fan until now. This discussion is really good, and im definitely more neutral on 6v6 vs 5v5 now
Orisa was perfect on release. Slow projectiles. Bigger spread. Small, weak shield on long cooldown. Good damage. She hard countered braindead w key dps players that were used to walking over main tanks at the time. She countered Old Hog. She got eaten by long range characters. And a Reinhardt could feasibly win the duel. Then brainlets cried cause they couldn’t just walk in a straight line at her. She gets her damage nerfed, her magazine nerfed, her shield buffed, and suddenly Orisas start being awful bunkers.
Man I miss pull hook so much.
I agree with spilo that psychology is a reason why tank are pressured but another arguement is that tanks are pressured because of winning condition... in the roles there is value... support are most value then tanks and then dps... this is seen in pro play when creating a team and team fight on who dies first and probability of winning the fight... sadly supports are so good that dps cant fight them... one of the reason why goats became meta was dps couldn't kill anything and if they tried supports and tank would kill them the only dps that were meta was widow or hanzo because they could one shot the supports... supports are too good with utility, damage and survival tbaf dps has to fight dps or tanks... sadly dps have so little value that killing a dps will not win so pressure must go twards the tank... if you want pressure to move systematicly support muat have weakness so they can be exploited... it is dumb philosophy that supports have monopoly of healing without the consequences of having this... something must be weak for having the tool of healing or fixing mistakes or creating pressure with survival
You two need to start a podcast immediately!!!!
At 37:00 such a good convo about “control” it really is what makes the game more fun to play is how much the player can control where as when things are out of control it is an issue
The maps could aid in taking space in 6v6. Inspire and all effects must have enough visual/audible cues to know
Are you still posting a video on the whole situation with hanzo?
It's really disappointing the devs aren't willing to discuss the format. This conversation really highlights its strength as a lens for analyzing hero design, map design, and much more. Even if it's just to say they're sticking with 5v5, acknowledging this topic and giving their reasons would say a lot about what they want for the game and how they plan on achieving it. Mentioning queue times and sweeping it under the rug won't be a solution in the long run.
I wish Samito - or actually any higher ranked content creator - just made changes for Blizzard instead of them. They really just need to have these people give balance changes, I am sure none of them would mind doing it for free. If Sam or OWL players gave patch notes, GOATS could have been prevented before they forced 2/2/2 due to their bad balancing, and even double shield could have been stopped after a few patches.
They actually did that once. Didn't work out too well
@@IXxhpnotiqxXI Not entirely true, the devs allowed the Content Creators to make a "Fun" patch where they had to think about some Ideas
Also they picked the CCs at random, i think like some Support Streamers made changes to tanks which made no sense.
If Blizzard let these guys do a real patch, then we would be cooking
@@IXxhpnotiqxXIHow are you gonna cite the past but completely misrepresent what it actually is?
@@heiko2255think it was Flat that said the devs wouldn't let them do real patch (probably new they would loss they jobs if they did) and things in the patches hat to be funny one way or another
That's a bad idea, they'd kill the casual market which brings in money.
As an ex-casual player. I can say for me OW1 was 100% more fun. I cant play OW2. I get pissed and not have fun. Ow1 I never had that. Also they killed hanzo.... but ya that was the last straw for me.
I am one of those weirdoes who liked baning my head on hanamura, Anubis and volkskaya or how you spell it lol. Winning was such a great reliving feeling and maybe that's overall bad lol
33:00 Wraxu would like a word
Is it only me that lowkey misses 2 CP??
its in arcade most of the time... not that fun in ow2
was this recorded before or after the YourOverwatch 6v6 video came out?
Before
@@thekrustymop thanks
Y'all are thinking small. The real answear is 6v5 with a brand new role, that being Tracer. Mandatory Tracer every match. Regardless of which que you choose theres a chance you'll be randomly assigned Tracer. This Tracer also isn't exclusive. Double Tracer, because fuck everyone, exept the Tracer otp that got assigned Tracer.
I have SOLVED 5v5!
New format: AOT (attack on tracer). 5 normal characters vs 5 Tracer OTP's with 250 hp.
Objective: Live as long as possible
We need the samito flop compilation! When’s the diving vlog?
One thing I’m upset no one brought up regarding counterpicking is the fact that the game becomes so stale and boring if every time you want to play ball, Dva, Winston, doom, etc- you will ALWAYS be fighting sombra, zarya, bastion, mauga, etc. like, they only mentioned the fact that you’re at a disadvantage but can still outplay them- but didn’t mention the fact that having every game be the exact same experience depending on what the enemy tank is is boring, uninteresting, lacks depth, and gets stale REALLY fast. It’s low key one of the biggest problems with 5v5 that I haven’t heard anyone talk about
Who knew it was possible for to people to have a debate and not do any mudslinging? I loved watching this so much! You can disagree with someone and be respectful. I'd love to see more content like this. So interesting hearing someone's thoughts, without all the BS.
Healing out of combat should not be added to 6v6. Healing out of combat is niche since we already have health packs and healing on payloads. Healing out of combat also unnecessarily buffs flankers. Samito's discord is right saying no.
Well, the basis for that idea is to redistribute their responsibilities to be more utility, less healing. There is less of a pressure to focus on guaranteeing sufficient healing output. So you should always assume another dial would likely be adjusted to balance out the change. Like maybe making healing numbers weaker. Just assuming 1 change is done in a vacuum is not ideal
waiting for him to reacted to freedos vid lol
For some reason I prefer 5v5 but objectively 6v6 is superior and works better for overwatch
I imagine it's probably because getting value is less convoluted and much more straight forward no? Or that it is easier to have an understanding of everything that is going on
@@megamecha100 yeah I played overwatch 1 since launch and in comparison atleast ow2 launch the visual clutter was alot better and the game was dumbed down due to there being 1 less player. I play more casually and in some ways I thin 5v5 has helped just being able to half switch your brain off but I terms of actual overall health of the game 6v6 I think is better, I just prefer 5v5.
@@megamecha100 like the game is for sure more streamlined now
@@The_Struggler_ I appreciate you sharing your perspective ☺️ I know some people are less inclined to like the chaos so I get what you're saying
a 5v5 hero shooter can work, but has to be designed from the get go and all abilities being for 5v5... all abilities in OW are designed around 6v6 plain and simple! All OW2 did was remove 1 tank player, giga buff tanks which.. did nothing and the role is so unfun to play outside of open queue(thats a different discussion tho) and left everyones abilities practically untouched. OW2 was supposed to be a rewrite wel obviously that was a lie.. Cause pretty sure all the code was copy pasted and retouched to work in the new engine... not a rewrite from the groundup at all!
Just make new role called brawler, which is basically off tank, they cannot have stuns or shields, and must have less HP than tanks but more damage. Make the Q for tank and brawler be the same , and lock to 1 Tank hero Max, but brawler can be 1 or 2 . So 6 v 6 is back , but better.
I dont see a SINGLE drawbacks to this
good idea but queue times. the more roles you have the more likely that one role is going to create a bottleneck in matchmaking
By that point just bring back 6v6 if that was released today it would be the most played probably
Blud couldn't wait 5 days before making another video gg
What if hog could hook on walls and pull himself toward the wall Asa movement ability? Kinda like a grapple.
So he could use it to escape or position himself, or use it to pull in an enemy like he normally does. So he has to choose the cool down carefully.
I think that works as a replacement for pig pen. Just remove pig pen. Hog gets mobility all while still staying true to his character with the hook.
More samito & spilo content please sir
I'm on spilo Side. He Is Someone who has The Productive Talking points that are Logical and Based in reality in regards to 5v5 instead of 6v6. He's not wrong in certain to most points while Acknowledging his faults. My game time in OW is 300hrs on PS4/PS5 (I don't have a PS5 because of the $500 price tag.)
Made it 8 mins till Bap-Brig mentioned by Samito may be a record
Well, that is what happens when Bap and Brig were the main problems with OW1 on 6v6 but they get ignored.
Freedo and Samito duke it out on this debate, it did get heated. But that’s just them.
But it’s nice to have a productive discussion between these two. Felt like we made a little ground towards a solid solution.
Is it really gonna be the last one ?
If we go back to 6v6, do we have to suffer through priority pass tanks again?
I don't make a ton of typos, but turning "actual" into "actually" might be my most common one. So I can empathize with Sam on this one lol
Changing the ult charge on tanks actually nerfs dva because that is how she can quickly get back into mech. Probably the dumbest change imo
Love the debat next time the lusic volume should be lowered a lot though just a little knitpick
need it or keep it?
No shot its the last one but sure let's go with it
THANK YOU SPILOOOO FOR THINKING AND USING YOUR BRAIN THANK YOU THANK YOU IT MEANS A LOT FOR THE COMMUNITY
These two could save the game