Another excellent informative video, open and honest. I too have recently fitted a heat pump into a 1980's 2 bed end of terrace house, following the upgrading of roof insulation, changing pipework to 28mm feeds and new K2 & K3 radiators throughout. Quite a large capital outlay but the end result has been worth it. House now costs a fraction of the cost of the gas boiler (condensing) that was fitted, which will result in massive overall savings. January on the standard Octopus tariff has cost just £83.36 with temperatures going well below the design temperature of -1.7 (Somerset) yet the Vaillant ASHP has maintained a very comfortable 19 degrees throughout. Will probably also move to the agile tariff, which should take it down a little more too, but as things stand I am super happy with the change to heat pump.
Agile has dropped our costs alot. With a little adjustment of the schedule. 0.5 degree lower for the peak. And a degree above normal for the 2 hours before the peak. The house is slow to cool, so no noticeable temp drop during the peak. And our average price is further reduced. Often 15p or 16p average. Great not to be paying 28p kwh any more!
Had you fitted the same radiators to your Gas CH system and reduced the water temp at the boiler you would have significantly reduced your gas cost and not incurred the upheaval and capital outlay of the HP and enlarged pipework, which I notice no one ever builds into the real cost of converting to a HP driven CH system
@riptide9090 it would have improved efficency of a gas boiler by no more than 10% with lower flow temp. loads of people do not need to upgrade the pipe work. A mix of 22mm and 15mm Is often fine. There are even successful high cop systems running on microbore.
Very interesting. We have a 20 year old boiler that gets about 75% efficiency from when I've measured it with a thermometer and hot water flow. Currently going through heat pump install process. Your COPs aren't as high as I was hoping we'd get, but from other comments it sounds like you run the heat pump a bit hotter than we would (we have a 4 bed and used 1860kWh of gas for ~1,400 kWh heat, compared to your 2,600) so still feeling positive
Hi Ian, thanks for sharing your thoughts, moving from 75% efficiency to 300%+ would be a big step forward! This was the coldest week of the winter. Our COPs for the year overall have been around 3.5. Would be brilliant to hear more about your installation when you get there. All the best Tom
Hi Tom, Thanks for your analysis. Our 7 kW Octopus installed Daikin has achieved January COP of 3.275 (2132/651) for heating and 2.000 (124/62) for DHW so very similar. I have been plotting degree days below 14deg since my heat pump was installed in 2022 against electric used, heat generated and COP and have generated formula for this on monthly and daily basis with good fits. I am a bit of a spreadsheet nerd though 🙂
Great stuff Phil - it would be brill to see your spreadsheet! Sounds like everything is working pretty well, are you happy and comfortable? Thinking of making any changes? Thanks Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle As I have solar, EV, Heat Pump ,Zappi,Eddi and soon Ripple all I could do now is get a battery ! I would also love to add a full open energy monitor system. Currently have a power Only system as taking part in a time if use trial with Octopus/Nesta and have been given a basic emonpi system which I can build on. Only other change to heat pump might be increase size of rads to heat study better but we have a 220w IR which works fine. Happy to share my spreadsheet with you. How would you like to get it ?
Love the detail, the cop explanations are essential in understanding how different the heat pumps are in comparison to a gas fired boiler. Also thimk 90% efficiency from a gas boiler is definitely an over exaggeration from the boiler manufacturer but Im likely to have missed your explanations on this on a previous release as you sound as if you know your onions 😂 thankyou
Hi Douglas, thanks for engaging with the video, yes 90% might be high for many boilers, don’t want to open myself up for criticism from those who think we should stick to boilers by over claiming inefficiency, the comparisons get a lot better if we dropped to 80%! Tom
Hi Barry, thanks for sharing this, obviously different homes have different energy use, but it sounds like your home is built quite efficiently, particularly with MVHR. A heat pump providing that much heat would use less than 250-300 kWh of electricity over that time, (maybe even less if your home is well insulated) which would cost a similar amount to the gas boiler. Unfortunately, the gas boiler will be emitting 3-4 times more CO2. Thanks for engaging with the video! Tom
Unfortunatley at present tom we cannot even power what electrical requirements we have in this country carbon free, let alone heat pumps and cars, this isnt norway. As i have said previously the 3kw solar array and battery is woeful in the winter (comes in handy for summer aircon), during january it was typically putting out 400w. Scale this up to a 2kw charge and 10 kw battery for over night and i would need a 15 kw system. As i said before i would like a GSHP but simply have not the room.
Hi @@barrypickles6546 thanks for coming back. I would disagree with your point, we don't have to wait for the grid to be zero carbon to start tackling other emissions. A heat pump, with our current grid, would reduce emissions by 2/3rds today and would get lower and lower emissions as we expand low carbon generation (same with electric vehicles). Your solar and battery does not need to provide all the power you need, that is why a grid connection is so useful, if we need some more power then great we can have it. I have concerns with GSHP systems as if something goes wrong in the ground they are not maintainable, or if an engineer can't find the problem with a system, they can blame the ground... I prefer being able to maintain everything, above ground and therefore prefer air source heat pumps. Tom
How does adding an extra electric heat pump to the grid in this current attitude save carbon? I believe after losses gas electrical generation comes in at about 33 percent useful energy, any extra is supplied by coal ☹️. The trouble is there is no policy, we need storage for our wind and transmission and turbines that work in high wind load, like you say you may have connections to scotland👍. We actually pay to turn turbines off too?!! Imagine if the £100b of hs2 was spent on renewables 15 years ago, we may not have a cost of living crisis! Not a fan of nuclear, seems to take up a lot of carbon just to build, let alone the by products. Electric cars are full of lithium, an industry that is comprable to environmental damage caused by tar sands.
We are about to have a heat pump installed by Octopus but aftercm 3 attempts we still dont have a working smart meter. No smart tarrifs for ev charging let alone running a heat pump. Boosters wont work in this area either 😢
Hi Chris, thanks for the question, the heat loss assessment upon installation suggested a heat loss of just over 5 kW. Last month during the cold snap I think I have confirmed this as we delivered 120 kWh of heat during a day with average temperature -2, which would suggest about 5 kW heat loss. Hope that is helpful? Are you looking at an installation at the moment? Tom
What is your radiator water temperature? Maybe with fan coils you could reduce the water temperature to 35 ℃ and gain in efficiency. From COP of ~3 to ~4
Hi John - good question - we have it on a weather compensation curve that means at 0°C outside, our flow rate is about 42-43°C. Yes upgrading radiators by installing more, increasing size or adding something like ‘speed comfort’ fans could help reduce flow temperature and improve efficiency. I have a bit of insulation I could improve too, such as under original wood floor and external walls. And some spaces that could install another radiator (under stairs toilet for example) No short term plans…!
Hi John - fair question. I haven’t logged internal temperature before because we are always comfortable, temperature doesn’t change much, but it’s a fair question. And I will in the future. I give the cost for the whole month, so you could divide by 4ish to understand weekly cost… I have done a video in detail about heat pumps during a cold snap - ua-cam.com/video/YsUC8AahZSY/v-deo.htmlsi=c2RXTntafC_ZJotS - this talks through energy use and costs for a week of negative temperatures. Hope that is helpful Tom
I am looking at getting a heat pump and Octopus have given us a quote. It is £600 and that included the survey cost. We only £100 to pay. We do have solar panels and 9.6kWh of battery. Out gas bill is around £60 a month in the winter. It would seem that heat pump would eat up all our battery storage and so we would may well spend more on electricity that if we stuck with gas. I find this a bit confusing.
Hello - thanks for engaging with the video. I understand it can be a bit confusing, lots of things to consider. With solar and a battery, it is likely that your costs to run will be very low. If you gas costs in winter are around £60 per month, that will mean you are using about 900 kWh of gas (sounds like your home is quite well insulated), with a heat pump this is likely to be around 250 kWh of electricity, and although your solar panels won't generate much in the winter, you may be able to use your battery to buy cheap electricity that would be able to power your heat pump for a lot of the time. If not, your costs to run a heat pump should be similar to your current boiler. And then in the spring and autumn, when you are still heating but days are longer and there is a bit of sun, your costs will be very low! The octopus quote sounds very low, which suggests they won't have to do much work to fit one in your home. What kind of work is needed at your house? Is it listed in the quote? Thanks Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks Tom for the reply. Really appreciate. This is the sort of information I have been looking for. I am more than happy to buy another battery (+3.2 kWh) as the install is next to nothing. I would be happy to send you the quote, if you are interested. They are swapping two radiators in the lounge. This house is a 7 year new build and to be honest have never turned on the heating upstairs in all those years. We only turn it on for the towel rails. All the radiators are off.
Hi Edward - sorry should have included it on the video properly, energy-stats.uk/ has a lot of detail about the different octopus tariffs. Hope that’s helpful! Tom
Hi Keith - we have a mix of different walls that reflect a bit on how the house has changed over the years. Small area of empty cavity where the bay windows were built, some solid walls and a modern extension built in 2018. There is definitely something we could do to improve insulation of our walls! Tom
Hello! We live in a 3 bed victorian Terrace house in the NE of England, EPC C, the heat pump gives out about 12500 kWh of heat each year which would be equivalent to around 13,300 kWh of natural gas if we were using a boiler. Heat pump is a 5 kW arotherm plus from Vaillant. Water tank is a Vaillant Unistor 180 litres. Hope that is helpful Thanks Tom
that's really helpful. Thanks. I'm in a 1900 2 bed semi. My gas used to be 20,000kwh a year and then I turned all my radiators down and only kept one room warm during the winter and it reduced to 7000kwh per year. Then I insulated recently and now my epc is nearly a C and its averaging below 5000kwh a year but the whole house is now a lot warmer. The heat pump you mentioned looks like it averages now about £3500. I may consider getting a grant for this if I can get everything covered including water pump under grant scheme. S@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle
Hi Harry, ha very true! But also…. weather and climate are different things. Climate change is likely to mean bigger extremes and doesn’t mean we won’t have negative temperatures in North East England Thanks Tom
Another excellent informative video, open and honest. I too have recently fitted a heat pump into a 1980's 2 bed end of terrace house, following the upgrading of roof insulation, changing pipework to 28mm feeds and new K2 & K3 radiators throughout. Quite a large capital outlay but the end result has been worth it. House now costs a fraction of the cost of the gas boiler (condensing) that was fitted, which will result in massive overall savings. January on the standard Octopus tariff has cost just £83.36 with temperatures going well below the design temperature of -1.7 (Somerset) yet the Vaillant ASHP has maintained a very comfortable 19 degrees throughout. Will probably also move to the agile tariff, which should take it down a little more too, but as things stand I am super happy with the change to heat pump.
Agile has dropped our costs alot. With a little adjustment of the schedule. 0.5 degree lower for the peak. And a degree above normal for the 2 hours before the peak. The house is slow to cool, so no noticeable temp drop during the peak. And our average price is further reduced. Often 15p or 16p average. Great not to be paying 28p kwh any more!
Had you fitted the same radiators to your Gas CH system and reduced the water temp at the boiler you would have significantly reduced your gas cost and not incurred the upheaval and capital outlay of the HP and enlarged pipework, which I notice no one ever builds into the real cost of converting to a HP driven CH system
@riptide9090 it would have improved efficency of a gas boiler by no more than 10% with lower flow temp. loads of people do not need to upgrade the pipe work. A mix of 22mm and 15mm Is often fine. There are even successful high cop systems running on microbore.
Very interesting. We have a 20 year old boiler that gets about 75% efficiency from when I've measured it with a thermometer and hot water flow. Currently going through heat pump install process. Your COPs aren't as high as I was hoping we'd get, but from other comments it sounds like you run the heat pump a bit hotter than we would (we have a 4 bed and used 1860kWh of gas for ~1,400 kWh heat, compared to your 2,600) so still feeling positive
Hi Ian, thanks for sharing your thoughts, moving from 75% efficiency to 300%+ would be a big step forward!
This was the coldest week of the winter. Our COPs for the year overall have been around 3.5.
Would be brilliant to hear more about your installation when you get there.
All the best
Tom
Hi Tom, Thanks for your analysis. Our 7 kW Octopus installed Daikin has achieved January COP of 3.275 (2132/651) for heating and 2.000 (124/62) for DHW so very similar. I have been plotting degree days below 14deg since my heat pump was installed in 2022 against electric used, heat generated and COP and have generated formula for this on monthly and daily basis with good fits. I am a bit of a spreadsheet nerd though 🙂
Great stuff Phil - it would be brill to see your spreadsheet! Sounds like everything is working pretty well, are you happy and comfortable? Thinking of making any changes?
Thanks
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle As I have solar, EV, Heat Pump ,Zappi,Eddi and soon Ripple all I could do now is get a battery ! I would also love to add a full open energy monitor system. Currently have a power Only system as taking part in a time if use trial with Octopus/Nesta and have been given a basic emonpi system which I can build on. Only other change to heat pump might be increase size of rads to heat study better but we have a 220w IR which works fine. Happy to share my spreadsheet with you. How would you like to get it ?
Another great video. Thanks.
Thanks Jean - kind of you to comment!
Love the detail, the cop explanations are essential in understanding how different the heat pumps are in comparison to a gas fired boiler. Also thimk 90% efficiency from a gas boiler is definitely an over exaggeration from the boiler manufacturer but Im likely to have missed your explanations on this on a previous release as you sound as if you know your onions 😂 thankyou
Hi Douglas, thanks for engaging with the video, yes 90% might be high for many boilers, don’t want to open myself up for criticism from those who think we should stick to boilers by over claiming inefficiency, the comparisons get a lot better if we dropped to 80%!
Tom
Thanks
Thanks for the support!!
Hello again tom, FYI. Gas boiler and MVHR, about 1000 kwh in gas acording to the meter, coming in at about 73 pounds.
And it wouldnt be much help without the electric, that is about 200kwh.
Hi Barry, thanks for sharing this, obviously different homes have different energy use, but it sounds like your home is built quite efficiently, particularly with MVHR.
A heat pump providing that much heat would use less than 250-300 kWh of electricity over that time, (maybe even less if your home is well insulated) which would cost a similar amount to the gas boiler.
Unfortunately, the gas boiler will be emitting 3-4 times more CO2.
Thanks for engaging with the video!
Tom
Unfortunatley at present tom we cannot even power what electrical requirements we have in this country carbon free, let alone heat pumps and cars, this isnt norway. As i have said previously the 3kw solar array and battery is woeful in the winter (comes in handy for summer aircon), during january it was typically putting out 400w. Scale this up to a 2kw charge and 10 kw battery for over night and i would need a 15 kw system. As i said before i would like a GSHP but simply have not the room.
Hi @@barrypickles6546 thanks for coming back.
I would disagree with your point, we don't have to wait for the grid to be zero carbon to start tackling other emissions. A heat pump, with our current grid, would reduce emissions by 2/3rds today and would get lower and lower emissions as we expand low carbon generation (same with electric vehicles).
Your solar and battery does not need to provide all the power you need, that is why a grid connection is so useful, if we need some more power then great we can have it.
I have concerns with GSHP systems as if something goes wrong in the ground they are not maintainable, or if an engineer can't find the problem with a system, they can blame the ground... I prefer being able to maintain everything, above ground and therefore prefer air source heat pumps.
Tom
How does adding an extra electric heat pump to the grid in this current attitude save carbon? I believe after losses gas electrical generation comes in at about 33 percent useful energy, any extra is supplied by coal ☹️.
The trouble is there is no policy, we need storage for our wind and transmission and turbines that work in high wind load, like you say you may have connections to scotland👍. We actually pay to turn turbines off too?!! Imagine if the £100b of hs2 was spent on renewables 15 years ago, we may not have a cost of living crisis!
Not a fan of nuclear, seems to take up a lot of carbon just to build, let alone the by products. Electric cars are full of lithium, an industry that is comprable to environmental damage caused by tar sands.
We are about to have a heat pump installed by Octopus but aftercm 3 attempts we still dont have a working smart meter. No smart tarrifs for ev charging let alone running a heat pump. Boosters wont work in this area either 😢
Tom..please can you give an idea of what your total heat-loss for the house is ? Video👍
Hi Chris, thanks for the question, the heat loss assessment upon installation suggested a heat loss of just over 5 kW. Last month during the cold snap I think I have confirmed this as we delivered 120 kWh of heat during a day with average temperature -2, which would suggest about 5 kW heat loss.
Hope that is helpful? Are you looking at an installation at the moment?
Tom
What is your radiator water temperature? Maybe with fan coils you could reduce the water temperature to 35 ℃ and gain in efficiency. From COP of ~3 to ~4
Hi John - good question - we have it on a weather compensation curve that means at 0°C outside, our flow rate is about 42-43°C.
Yes upgrading radiators by installing more, increasing size or adding something like ‘speed comfort’ fans could help reduce flow temperature and improve efficiency.
I have a bit of insulation I could improve too, such as under original wood floor and external walls. And some spaces that could install another radiator (under stairs toilet for example)
No short term plans…!
why the hell do they not ever give you a graph of inside temperatures and add cost of electricity per week
Hi John - fair question. I haven’t logged internal temperature before because we are always comfortable, temperature doesn’t change much, but it’s a fair question. And I will in the future.
I give the cost for the whole month, so you could divide by 4ish to understand weekly cost…
I have done a video in detail about heat pumps during a cold snap - ua-cam.com/video/YsUC8AahZSY/v-deo.htmlsi=c2RXTntafC_ZJotS - this talks through energy use and costs for a week of negative temperatures.
Hope that is helpful
Tom
I am looking at getting a heat pump and Octopus have given us a quote. It is £600 and that included the survey cost. We only £100 to pay. We do have solar panels and 9.6kWh of battery. Out gas bill is around £60 a month in the winter. It would seem that heat pump would eat up all our battery storage and so we would may well spend more on electricity that if we stuck with gas. I find this a bit confusing.
Hello - thanks for engaging with the video.
I understand it can be a bit confusing, lots of things to consider. With solar and a battery, it is likely that your costs to run will be very low. If you gas costs in winter are around £60 per month, that will mean you are using about 900 kWh of gas (sounds like your home is quite well insulated), with a heat pump this is likely to be around 250 kWh of electricity, and although your solar panels won't generate much in the winter, you may be able to use your battery to buy cheap electricity that would be able to power your heat pump for a lot of the time. If not, your costs to run a heat pump should be similar to your current boiler.
And then in the spring and autumn, when you are still heating but days are longer and there is a bit of sun, your costs will be very low!
The octopus quote sounds very low, which suggests they won't have to do much work to fit one in your home. What kind of work is needed at your house? Is it listed in the quote?
Thanks
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Thanks Tom for the reply. Really appreciate. This is the sort of information I have been looking for. I am more than happy to buy another battery (+3.2 kWh) as the install is next to nothing. I would be happy to send you the quote, if you are interested. They are swapping two radiators in the lounge. This house is a 7 year new build and to be honest have never turned on the heating upstairs in all those years. We only turn it on for the towel rails. All the radiators are off.
where are you to get a quote that low?
@@egg399. My quote is from Octopus. My Mum just had her heat pump installed into her bungelow for the same price.
@@bazcurtis178Wow, i don’t understand how cheap that is. They are quoting 3500 in kent. Where are you? (county)
Hi Tom. Thanks for the video. I kept missing the web address of the Octopus Gas tariffs site. Is it OK to enter it on here?
Hi Edward - sorry should have included it on the video properly, energy-stats.uk/ has a lot of detail about the different octopus tariffs.
Hope that’s helpful!
Tom
Tom thanks for this. You say you live in a Victorian Terraced house. What sort of insulation do you have in the walls?
Hi Keith - we have a mix of different walls that reflect a bit on how the house has changed over the years. Small area of empty cavity where the bay windows were built, some solid walls and a modern extension built in 2018.
There is definitely something we could do to improve insulation of our walls!
Tom
Hi Tom new to your channel do you have Solar panels if not have you considered installing them.
Hi - what size house do you have, epc, and what heatpump size and water tank?
Hello!
We live in a 3 bed victorian Terrace house in the NE of England, EPC C, the heat pump gives out about 12500 kWh of heat each year which would be equivalent to around 13,300 kWh of natural gas if we were using a boiler.
Heat pump is a 5 kW arotherm plus from Vaillant. Water tank is a Vaillant Unistor 180 litres.
Hope that is helpful
Thanks
Tom
that's really helpful. Thanks. I'm in a 1900 2 bed semi. My gas used to be 20,000kwh a year and then I turned all my radiators down and only kept one room warm during the winter and it reduced to 7000kwh per year. Then I insulated recently and now my epc is nearly a C and its averaging below 5000kwh a year but the whole house is now a lot warmer. The heat pump you mentioned looks like it averages now about £3500. I may consider getting a grant for this if I can get everything covered including water pump under grant scheme. S@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle
Good video
Thanks Trevor, appreciate the support!
Very helpful. What target temperature do you set your central heating to?
Hi Graham, we are happy with a target temperature 19.5°C. And the heat pump can hit that at low external temperatures.
Thanks
Tom
Not selling the runaway global warming hottest everything and on record 🙂
Hi Harry, ha very true! But also…. weather and climate are different things. Climate change is likely to mean bigger extremes and doesn’t mean we won’t have negative temperatures in North East England
Thanks
Tom
@@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle Yeah. Actually climate is the 30 year weather average.
Thanks
Thanks for the support Stephen!