Great to see the lower figures published, i find that mynpimp drops efficiency at the low temperatures inline with yours. But i do have solar and battery systems to help. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Derek - overall this year we are at 346% efficiency, so not too bad overall, just working pretty hard in the cold snap! I bet your costs are pretty low with solar and a battery too!
We just got back from doing the Norwegian Coastal Route from Bergen to Kirkenes. You see heat pumps on most houses from Bergen in the "south" (but about as far North as the UK gets) right up to Honningsvåg and the North Cape in the arctic. Everywhere we went into was warm and cosy. The idea that heat pumps can't cope with UK weather is laughable, when they are working so well in countries which are much, much colder. And it feels a bit frustrating that you have to keep producing videos to counteract all the misinformation that was pumped out about them. In general I was thoroughly impressed with what I saw of Norway's green transition; healthy amount of electric cars, electric buses, electric boat charging stations, even our ferry was a hybrid of LNG and batteries (capable of running for 4 hours on battery alone) plus it actually serves a function of bringing regular deliveries along the coast. It just highlighted how far behind the future the UK is.
Excellent video again Tom also the heat pump is on all day and not ramping up and down like you’d do with a gas boiler so more comfort for the same costs. I’ve just put 300mm of sheep’s wool insulation in my loft and removed fibreglass and the difference is really good. It’s a lot quieter and the moisture content has reduced and my other half isn’t complaining about being cold, the vacuum glass gets fitted first week in January so hope it’s not so cold or wet then, I’ve done a heat loss calculation for my house and I think I’ll need some sort of wall insulation before a heat pump is installed it’s 1867 and would otherwise need 3 massive radiators in the lounge, but we’ll see after the new windows are fitted,
Thanks for providing these figures as real world numbers mean more than theoretical examples. It’s fine to quote a scop of 3.9 but that just means it’s pumping out 3.9x the heat output for the same input. But if your input is high and it’s then cycling it’s a bit meaningless. It also have a fact of type of use, for a permanently occupied house then a heat pump is going to have a massive advantage but a house where you are typically out all day then having a boiler off and only come on at full blast for an hour may actually use less than a heat pump on all day because it can’t raise the temperature that quickly. Undoubtedly the case for heat pumps is there and giving us numbers like this is great evidence against the doubters.
Hi Tom being just down the road from you in Hartlepool my weather was pretty much like yours. My heat pump fitted by Octopus went live on the first of November and on most days it has used ten kilowatt hours more than i used before. I have kept a spreadsheet for the last three years so i have a lot of back data to look at. I am on the cozy tariff and the only time the heat pump turns off is at peak time so it runs all day and night boiling the water between 10 o clock and midnight. I can honestly say that it works the home is warmer than it ever was before and it is actually quieter - eerily so because i was so used to hearing the boiler doing its checks every hour and the radiators bubbling each time. The last remaining lie is that it costs a fortune to run of course but as i said before ten kWh at cozy rates is not a lot of money and even my wife is happy about the bills. She even looks at our usage each day now as it is like an addiction isn't it
Thanks for sharing Geoff. Really pleased that your system is performing well and your experience good! Definitely agree about the warmer, quieter home and the addiction to the stats!
I have an AroTherm 5kW in a 1930s semi in London, 4 people live in it and we only have (large) radiators. My installation managed a COP of 3.82 in the cold snap. For the whole of autumn it's been a COP 4.52. In my case, it's saved me money vs gas.
Thanks for posting your figures. This is out first Autumn/Winter with our heat-pump (Aerotherme+ 5kW) and saw a COP of 4.2 in October, COP of 3.7 in November and COP of 3.6 so far in December. The 2 cold snaps - the cold week in November got down to -5.3, averaged -1.5 through the week and COP was 3.3, this week has also been cold averaging -1 so far and again COP of 3.3. The heat-pump defrost cycle looks to have a huge effect on efficiency - it's been very humid and below freezing (freezing fog) for a few days this week and efficiency on those days really dropped. Costs are much lower with our heat-pump than the 20 year old gas boiler it replaced, at best the gas boiler would have been 75% (COP 0.75) and we have a 15kWh household battery and as BEV we're able to charge up overnight on the low Octopus Go 8.5p/kWh tariff. We do the overnight hot water cycle during the low tariffs houses as well. On days above 3 degrees out heat-pump electrical demand is low enough that we can do a full day on the energy stored in the battery. During this cold snaps it only last through to the mid afternoon before we've had to draw from the grid and paying the higher 26p/kWh price. It's still too early to do exact comparisons on total costs vs Gas, but even before being able to leverage the low cost tariffs even the worst days of efficiency the costs would only have matched Gas boilers, but now with the low tariff it's far far cheaper. Yesterday Octopus also removed our redundant Gas meter so that's another £108/year saving.
The thing that would help us HP owners the most would be the government doing something about the spark gap, having something closer to parity on the cost of gas and electricity would really shake things up. It's still just not even on the agenda though.
That would definitely make a difference - and I think it is on the agenda within the Government Department responsible (i.e. Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero), it is a tricky one to get right as there could be a loss in income for the treasury, or increase in a number of people experiencing fuel poverty. There could / should be a way forward! And would really help incentivise heat pump take up if done right.
Most gas boilers will only get around 80% efficiency, the 95% figures are for a properly installed and set up system, in most cases that would have involved replacing loads of radiators. Generally, condensing boilers were installed by just ripping out the old boiler and sticking in a condensing boiler, without the system changes necessary to get a higher efficiency.
Absolutely spot on! I should maybe talk more about that in my comparisons. But in the past, when I have given lower efficiencies, people have complained it isnt a fair comparison... if only we controlled and metered gas boilers in as much detail as we do heat pumps......
Very true. My mum had a condensing boiler installed and the flow temperature is set to 65. No chance it’s condensing. Not got the instructions for it so can’t adjust the temperature. She also dosnt use the hot water much so having it at 65 is safer given the low turn over of the tank. Unfortunately the controls are not smart and I doubt even smart controls would be able to program different temperatures for the hot water. It’s also not opentherm. However it was common practice for plumbers to oversize radiators so a bit of tinkering on general combi boilers is pretty simple to get more efficient set ups.
There must be a COP break-even number, above that and the heat pump saves money, below and it costs. That depends a little on current rates. The COP depends on temperature, which you can represent with a degree day chart for a heating season. Then draw a line across the chart to show how much time you might be below or above the line. In my experience, less time than people think, but they remember those cold days more.
Great video! I've been busy making a complimentary video about how much CO2 we saved in our first full year of having a heat pump. Not sure it will be as easy to follow as yours!
You also need to take into account the saving you’ve made on the gas standing charge. We too have a heatpump but we also have two Powerwalls, solar panels and an EV so we buy all our power at just 7p per kWh. as well as getting an FIT payment of around £400 a year.
Yes absolute should include in calculations, unfortunately we still have a gas hob, so pay a standing charge for this, not managed to convince my other half on the investment in electric cooking yet!
You still emit less CO2 burning gas in a power plant, transmitting it and then using the heat pump at 270% efficency than if you burned it in a 90% efficient boiler.
Great to be able to work out your average kwh daily consumption from your on screen cards, I was worried a bit as some days ours was eating 29kwh a day when it was really cold but average is about the same as yours
Thank you for your comparison videos It is so difficult to get unbiased real world data . Are you sure agile is the best in your situation ? Scary the last few days . Regards Jeff
Hi Jeff - it has been very expensive recently. I took the decision last week to move to cosy although agile has been great for the last 18 months or so!
I've the same heatpump as you Tom in a detached 3 bed costs are great averaging 4.5 cop for heat/water over the last two months I've had it. What concerns me is the amount of electricity they consume when it gets really cold and wondering if everyone had one would the uk grid survive such punishment/demand, a video on that would be appreciated 👍
Hi vindeballs - sounds like your system is performing really well! I have done a video a bit about the electricity grid and generation over here - ua-cam.com/video/gQH59dwoInY/v-deo.html It is a challenge, but one we have time to overcome. The coldest winter night, with minimal wind, would be very difficult with a significant electrical load from heat pumps, and we will need some power that can be dispatched when required. Much of this will be storage, some will be interconnectors with neighbours, and we will have some gas power stations to meet the peak for many years to come, maybe with some carbon capture in place... But overall, the system is planning for it, and we have time to get ready Thanks Tom
@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle I wait to see if the geeks get it right 🤔 going on past performance we all need to make our own power stations more robust with maybe the option to go completely self sufficient for a while.
I would love to have a heat pump, but I just can't justify it with those savings. Surely, with the addition of solar and a battery, that's where you would really start saving £££.
That is fair enough, although probably worth getting some quotes to check the price in your situation. Many Octopus installations will be as low as £500. There may well be changes to levies and taxes that makes a heat pump more attractive to run in the future Tom
Those are useful figures (and good news) but I think you're playing into the hands of the people who say "why should I get a heat pump when it'll never pay for itself" by concentrating on the the relatively small savings. The fact that it isn't any more expensive is important (and that it actually works!) but the really important part is the CO2 reduction. The problem there is that most people have no concept of what 360 Kg of CO2 means. Is that a big reduction or a small one? How does it compare to getting rid of an ICE car, not flying to a foreign holiday or giving up meat? A couple of simple charts could add a lot of impact.
Honesty is the key 👍 Don't lie to people and tell them they are going to save loads of money! Unless you spend 10's of thousands on Solar and batteries etc, at the moment, You are not. We need to tell the whole picture when compiling the Co2 reductions on using a heat pumps as well. How that "Clean" electricity has been produced, especially in winter!! Yesterday, over 70% of the electric produced in the UK was by fossil fuels!
Well part of your answer is that you are probably be going to have to replace your boiler sometime. And that you drop gas standing charges. And service more expensive.
Hi Robin - you make a fair point, and communicating on quantity of CO2 emissions is a difficult one to get right, but something I will think about in the future. That is helpful feedback. @jezzaandrews1940 - a bit like focussing in on efficiency of a heat pump in a cold snap, generation of electricity at a snap shot in time does not paint the whole picture - over the last 28 days, gas has only generated less than 36% of electricity in the UK! Thanks all for engaging Tom
No, it doesn't, but it proves that we are a very very long way from being able to give up fossil fuels, until we can store our over supply of green energy in the summer or windy days for the winter, for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow!
Thanks Tom for being honest with your viewers. I've been looking and researching the viability of ATW heat pumps and loads of sites bang on about how much you will be saving with heat pumps. So many of these savings are normally the ones who have solar and batteries who are constantly monitoring their systems and get on the best energy company rate, use these lower rates at off peak times to boost the system or charge their batteries!! All brilliant, it's exactly what I'd be doing, but not everyone has the time or the inclination or the skills to change the heating curve or set up monitoring equipment to fine tune their heating systems to an inch of their lives!! Your Free to fit heat pump ( I had to put that in!😄) has proved that heat pumps work in a modernised Northern terraced house, it's not noisy at the moment, it performs well down to -5C. all good👍 The minimal savings that you are estimating you make throughout the year can be wiped out in a cold winter, so overall the heat pump running costs is comparable to a modern gas boiler. Though as you say in your videos, to you it's more about, what each unit is doing to the environment👍
Hi Jezza, thanks for your summary. There will be many systems and homes that perform well better than our system - just look at the heatpumpmonitor.org/ website, and the column 'SPF' which is similar to COP or efficiency. I think one point to make is that almost all heat pumps installed in the UK today would class as fairly early adopters in the energy transition in the UK. The MCS data dashboard suggests there are less than 250,000 heat pumps (there will be some non-MCS systems too), when there are 25million gas boilers.... Since our system was installed in 2021, the consensus around best practice, system design and good installation, as well as number of new units has helped contribute to driving up efficiency. As the number of systems gets into the millions, the lessons learnt may well be built upon Tom
Hi Tom, how would I go about calculating the efficiency please, we've had our heat pump since May, running weather comp etc. I've worked our flow temps down over time in experiment. Less than thirty degrees centigrade now. We live in a three bed bungalow with reasonable insulation (which we strive to improve). We are home all the time after retirement so the system is running 24/7. Also on agile too. ( Did have a bit of a panic when the agile price went to almost 99p per uni at peak 46p average gulp) We are a
What heat pump system do you use? We have a Daikin installed by octopus and on the main unit in the grarage there's an energy consumption screen which states the total amount of electric used over day/month/year etc and a total heat output over the same periods. Divide the total heat output byt he electricity input and it should give you an idea of your COP. On agile here too and nearly jumped to Cosy this week but next week there's a storm and should return to decent rates, apparently EDF are doing maintenance on some nuclear sites too which is why the costs are so high this week - hold in there!
@@AndyKennedy Hi yes our heat pump system is a Daikin installed by Octopus, our control panel is in the hall near our hot water tank (the heat pump is outside of course). Is it on the control panel I can see these figures?
@@alantightwad2020 so you have 2 screen units with the Daikin right? One just to control the temps, but a second, bigger screen for the more technical stuff. It's on the bigger screen unit (maybe next to your water tank?) it's under "information"in the menu then "energy data" then "electricity input", scroll along to "since installation". Ours is 744kwh. And our produced heat states 2558kwh so 2558/744=3.43 cop or 343% efficiency Let me know if you can't find it though. Would be interested to know your cop too to compare
@AndyKennedy hi Andy, I found the information on the display and since the install we've used 527 which produced 2171. So that's a cop/scop of 4.119 we have no gas supply now and are considering solar and batteries in new year. We are very happy with both Octopus and the heat pump.
Thanks both, it sounds like Andy has helped with this, and Alan, sounds like your system is working well! We moved away from Agile this week and have switched to the cosy octopus tariff. I have now programmed hot water to heat in the dips but other wise run the system 24-7 Tom
Hi Tom. Quick question, when you are estimating your gas consumption to electric consumption are you allowing the difference in how they run? So your heat pump will be set to on 24 hours a day, obviously it’s not always on at this time depending on how it’s set up, weather comp, load comp, open loop etc, to how many people run a gas boiler, an hour or so in the morning and a few hours at night? Or is that estimated consumption with the boiler programmer constantly on 24 hours a day to keep the property let’s say at 21 degrees all the time like a heat pump? Thanks
The problem is running a condensing gas boiler intermittently isn't the most efficient. The most efficient way to run a gas boiler is with weather compensation, and heating in the same way as a heat pump. You might save a bit of money running it intermittently, but you sacrifice comfort and efficiency in the process. So Tom's comparison is essentially best case for providing the same level of comfort etc.
@ I’m a heat pump installer of 14 years and a gas engineer of 20 years. Covered all the most popular courses that are on UA-cam as we know, so I have a great understanding how best to run a system but also how a mass majority of the country run their heating systems 👍 I think we need to be transparent and honest about everything
@ that’s why I was asking if the comparison was for like for like running which in most cases it definitely isn’t so the C02 ratios would be different. Thanks
How would you make that comparison? Is the average person saving any money by running their boiler for a few hours a day, or is the reduced efficiency actually costing them money?
@ Hi Robin. All I was asking was where he was getting his gas consumption from, was it a like for like keeping the house warm 24 hours a day or was it say general running of a boiler, a few hours here and there, nothing more nothing less, just wasn’t clarified I don’t think in the video. As a heat pump installer myself and my parents having a gas boiler, set to 50 degree flow keeping the house at 19 degrees constantly 24 hours a day, their gas consumption is more than running before, at 2 hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening, but they’re happy with the comfort for the price/consumption usuage.
Yeah, interesting point, although I would share caution on the majority of offsetting schemes available today, I am not sure on the confidence we can have on the additionality or how well maintained a tree planting scheme (for example) would be. I don't put much trust in offsetting, so would encourage real emissions reduction like electrification of heat or transport Thanks Tom
Great to see the lower figures published, i find that mynpimp drops efficiency at the low temperatures inline with yours. But i do have solar and battery systems to help. Keep up the good work.
Thanks Derek - overall this year we are at 346% efficiency, so not too bad overall, just working pretty hard in the cold snap!
I bet your costs are pretty low with solar and a battery too!
@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle with 15kwh and cosy tariff, I am 100% 11.6p
We just got back from doing the Norwegian Coastal Route from Bergen to Kirkenes. You see heat pumps on most houses from Bergen in the "south" (but about as far North as the UK gets) right up to Honningsvåg and the North Cape in the arctic. Everywhere we went into was warm and cosy. The idea that heat pumps can't cope with UK weather is laughable, when they are working so well in countries which are much, much colder. And it feels a bit frustrating that you have to keep producing videos to counteract all the misinformation that was pumped out about them. In general I was thoroughly impressed with what I saw of Norway's green transition; healthy amount of electric cars, electric buses, electric boat charging stations, even our ferry was a hybrid of LNG and batteries (capable of running for 4 hours on battery alone) plus it actually serves a function of bringing regular deliveries along the coast. It just highlighted how far behind the future the UK is.
Excellent video again Tom also the heat pump is on all day and not ramping up and down like you’d do with a gas boiler so more comfort for the same costs. I’ve just put 300mm of sheep’s wool insulation in my loft and removed fibreglass and the difference is really good. It’s a lot quieter and the moisture content has reduced and my other half isn’t complaining about being cold, the vacuum glass gets fitted first week in January so hope it’s not so cold or wet then, I’ve done a heat loss calculation for my house and I think I’ll need some sort of wall insulation before a heat pump is installed it’s 1867 and would otherwise need 3 massive radiators in the lounge, but we’ll see after the new windows are fitted,
Thanks for providing these figures as real world numbers mean more than theoretical examples. It’s fine to quote a scop of 3.9 but that just means it’s pumping out 3.9x the heat output for the same input. But if your input is high and it’s then cycling it’s a bit meaningless.
It also have a fact of type of use, for a permanently occupied house then a heat pump is going to have a massive advantage but a house where you are typically out all day then having a boiler off and only come on at full blast for an hour may actually use less than a heat pump on all day because it can’t raise the temperature that quickly.
Undoubtedly the case for heat pumps is there and giving us numbers like this is great evidence against the doubters.
Hi Tom being just down the road from you in Hartlepool my weather was pretty much like yours. My heat pump fitted by Octopus went live on the first of November and on most days it has used ten kilowatt hours more than i used before. I have kept a spreadsheet for the last three years so i have a lot of back data to look at. I am on the cozy tariff and the only time the heat pump turns off is at peak time so it runs all day and night boiling the water between 10 o clock and midnight. I can honestly say that it works the home is warmer than it ever was before and it is actually quieter - eerily so because i was so used to hearing the boiler doing its checks every hour and the radiators bubbling each time. The last remaining lie is that it costs a fortune to run of course but as i said before ten kWh at cozy rates is not a lot of money and even my wife is happy about the bills. She even looks at our usage each day now as it is like an addiction isn't it
Thanks for sharing Geoff. Really pleased that your system is performing well and your experience good! Definitely agree about the warmer, quieter home and the addiction to the stats!
I have an AroTherm 5kW in a 1930s semi in London, 4 people live in it and we only have (large) radiators. My installation managed a COP of 3.82 in the cold snap. For the whole of autumn it's been a COP 4.52. In my case, it's saved me money vs gas.
That is great performance! A fair chunk better than ours!
Thanks for posting your figures. This is out first Autumn/Winter with our heat-pump (Aerotherme+ 5kW) and saw a COP of 4.2 in October, COP of 3.7 in November and COP of 3.6 so far in December. The 2 cold snaps - the cold week in November got down to -5.3, averaged -1.5 through the week and COP was 3.3, this week has also been cold averaging -1 so far and again COP of 3.3. The heat-pump defrost cycle looks to have a huge effect on efficiency - it's been very humid and below freezing (freezing fog) for a few days this week and efficiency on those days really dropped.
Costs are much lower with our heat-pump than the 20 year old gas boiler it replaced, at best the gas boiler would have been 75% (COP 0.75) and we have a 15kWh household battery and as BEV we're able to charge up overnight on the low Octopus Go 8.5p/kWh tariff. We do the overnight hot water cycle during the low tariffs houses as well. On days above 3 degrees out heat-pump electrical demand is low enough that we can do a full day on the energy stored in the battery. During this cold snaps it only last through to the mid afternoon before we've had to draw from the grid and paying the higher 26p/kWh price.
It's still too early to do exact comparisons on total costs vs Gas, but even before being able to leverage the low cost tariffs even the worst days of efficiency the costs would only have matched Gas boilers, but now with the low tariff it's far far cheaper. Yesterday Octopus also removed our redundant Gas meter so that's another £108/year saving.
The thing that would help us HP owners the most would be the government doing something about the spark gap, having something closer to parity on the cost of gas and electricity would really shake things up. It's still just not even on the agenda though.
That would definitely make a difference - and I think it is on the agenda within the Government Department responsible (i.e. Dept for Energy Security and Net Zero), it is a tricky one to get right as there could be a loss in income for the treasury, or increase in a number of people experiencing fuel poverty.
There could / should be a way forward! And would really help incentivise heat pump take up if done right.
Most gas boilers will only get around 80% efficiency, the 95% figures are for a properly installed and set up system, in most cases that would have involved replacing loads of radiators. Generally, condensing boilers were installed by just ripping out the old boiler and sticking in a condensing boiler, without the system changes necessary to get a higher efficiency.
Absolutely spot on! I should maybe talk more about that in my comparisons. But in the past, when I have given lower efficiencies, people have complained it isnt a fair comparison... if only we controlled and metered gas boilers in as much detail as we do heat pumps......
Very true. My mum had a condensing boiler installed and the flow temperature is set to 65. No chance it’s condensing. Not got the instructions for it so can’t adjust the temperature. She also dosnt use the hot water much so having it at 65 is safer given the low turn over of the tank. Unfortunately the controls are not smart and I doubt even smart controls would be able to program different temperatures for the hot water. It’s also not opentherm.
However it was common practice for plumbers to oversize radiators so a bit of tinkering on general combi boilers is pretty simple to get more efficient set ups.
There must be a COP break-even number, above that and the heat pump saves money, below and it costs. That depends a little on current rates. The COP depends on temperature, which you can represent with a degree day chart for a heating season. Then draw a line across the chart to show how much time you might be below or above the line. In my experience, less time than people think, but they remember those cold days more.
Great video!
I've been busy making a complimentary video about how much CO2 we saved in our first full year of having a heat pump.
Not sure it will be as easy to follow as yours!
I’ll look forward to watching it!
You also need to take into account the saving you’ve made on the gas standing charge. We too have a heatpump but we also have two Powerwalls, solar panels and an EV so we buy all our power at just 7p per kWh. as well as getting an FIT payment of around £400 a year.
Hi Wobby - absolutely could include that, we still have a gas hob so not able to take that out just yet!
Don’t forget to include the savings from no gas standing charge.
And do you pay more for gas servicing
Yes absolute should include in calculations, unfortunately we still have a gas hob, so pay a standing charge for this, not managed to convince my other half on the investment in electric cooking yet!
You still emit less CO2 burning gas in a power plant, transmitting it and then using the heat pump at 270% efficency than if you burned it in a 90% efficient boiler.
Absolutely, and most of our power does not come from a gas power plant, so the reduction is even more!
Great to be able to work out your average kwh daily consumption from your on screen cards, I was worried a bit as some days ours was eating 29kwh a day when it was really cold but average is about the same as yours
Thanks Andy - pleased that adding those was helpful. And definitely during the cold snap we use a lot electricity! Tom
Thank you for your comparison videos
It is so difficult to get unbiased real world data .
Are you sure agile is the best in your situation ? Scary the last few days .
Regards Jeff
Hi Jeff - it has been very expensive recently. I took the decision last week to move to cosy although agile has been great for the last 18 months or so!
I've the same heatpump as you Tom in a detached 3 bed costs are great averaging 4.5 cop for heat/water over the last two months I've had it.
What concerns me is the amount of electricity they consume when it gets really cold and wondering if everyone had one would the uk grid survive such punishment/demand, a video on that would be appreciated 👍
Hi vindeballs - sounds like your system is performing really well!
I have done a video a bit about the electricity grid and generation over here - ua-cam.com/video/gQH59dwoInY/v-deo.html
It is a challenge, but one we have time to overcome. The coldest winter night, with minimal wind, would be very difficult with a significant electrical load from heat pumps, and we will need some power that can be dispatched when required. Much of this will be storage, some will be interconnectors with neighbours, and we will have some gas power stations to meet the peak for many years to come, maybe with some carbon capture in place...
But overall, the system is planning for it, and we have time to get ready
Thanks
Tom
@TomBray-LowCarbonLifestyle I wait to see if the geeks get it right 🤔 going on past performance we all need to make our own power stations more robust with maybe the option to go completely self sufficient for a while.
I would love to have a heat pump, but I just can't justify it with those savings. Surely, with the addition of solar and a battery, that's where you would really start saving £££.
That is fair enough, although probably worth getting some quotes to check the price in your situation. Many Octopus installations will be as low as £500.
There may well be changes to levies and taxes that makes a heat pump more attractive to run in the future
Tom
Those are useful figures (and good news) but I think you're playing into the hands of the people who say "why should I get a heat pump when it'll never pay for itself" by concentrating on the the relatively small savings. The fact that it isn't any more expensive is important (and that it actually works!) but the really important part is the CO2 reduction. The problem there is that most people have no concept of what 360 Kg of CO2 means. Is that a big reduction or a small one? How does it compare to getting rid of an ICE car, not flying to a foreign holiday or giving up meat? A couple of simple charts could add a lot of impact.
Honesty is the key 👍
Don't lie to people and tell them they are going to save loads of money! Unless you spend 10's of thousands on Solar and batteries etc, at the moment, You are not.
We need to tell the whole picture when compiling the Co2 reductions on using a heat pumps as well. How that "Clean" electricity has been produced, especially in winter!! Yesterday, over 70% of the electric produced in the UK was by fossil fuels!
Well part of your answer is that you are probably be going to have to replace your boiler sometime. And that you drop gas standing charges. And service more expensive.
Hi Robin - you make a fair point, and communicating on quantity of CO2 emissions is a difficult one to get right, but something I will think about in the future. That is helpful feedback.
@jezzaandrews1940 - a bit like focussing in on efficiency of a heat pump in a cold snap, generation of electricity at a snap shot in time does not paint the whole picture - over the last 28 days, gas has only generated less than 36% of electricity in the UK!
Thanks all for engaging
Tom
No, it doesn't, but it proves that we are a very very long way from being able to give up fossil fuels, until we can store our over supply of green energy in the summer or windy days for the winter, for when the sun doesn't shine and the wind doesn't blow!
Thanks Tom for being honest with your viewers. I've been looking and researching the viability of ATW heat pumps and loads of sites bang on about how much you will be saving with heat pumps. So many of these savings are normally the ones who have solar and batteries who are constantly monitoring their systems and get on the best energy company rate, use these lower rates at off peak times to boost the system or charge their batteries!!
All brilliant, it's exactly what I'd be doing, but not everyone has the time or the inclination or the skills to change the heating curve or set up monitoring equipment to fine tune their heating systems to an inch of their lives!!
Your Free to fit heat pump ( I had to put that in!😄) has proved that heat pumps work in a modernised Northern terraced house, it's not noisy at the moment, it performs well down to -5C. all good👍
The minimal savings that you are estimating you make throughout the year can be wiped out in a cold winter, so overall the heat pump running costs is comparable to a modern gas boiler.
Though as you say in your videos, to you it's more about, what each unit is doing to the environment👍
Hi Jezza, thanks for your summary.
There will be many systems and homes that perform well better than our system - just look at the heatpumpmonitor.org/ website, and the column 'SPF' which is similar to COP or efficiency.
I think one point to make is that almost all heat pumps installed in the UK today would class as fairly early adopters in the energy transition in the UK. The MCS data dashboard suggests there are less than 250,000 heat pumps (there will be some non-MCS systems too), when there are 25million gas boilers.... Since our system was installed in 2021, the consensus around best practice, system design and good installation, as well as number of new units has helped contribute to driving up efficiency. As the number of systems gets into the millions, the lessons learnt may well be built upon
Tom
Hi Tom, how would I go about calculating the efficiency please, we've had our heat pump since May, running weather comp etc. I've worked our flow temps down over time in experiment. Less than thirty degrees centigrade now.
We live in a three bed bungalow with reasonable insulation (which we strive to improve). We are home all the time after retirement so the system is running 24/7.
Also on agile too. ( Did have a bit of a panic when the agile price went to almost 99p per uni at peak 46p average gulp)
We are a
What heat pump system do you use? We have a Daikin installed by octopus and on the main unit in the grarage there's an energy consumption screen which states the total amount of electric used over day/month/year etc and a total heat output over the same periods. Divide the total heat output byt he electricity input and it should give you an idea of your COP.
On agile here too and nearly jumped to Cosy this week but next week there's a storm and should return to decent rates, apparently EDF are doing maintenance on some nuclear sites too which is why the costs are so high this week - hold in there!
@@AndyKennedy Hi yes our heat pump system is a Daikin installed by Octopus, our control panel is in the hall near our hot water tank (the heat pump is outside of course). Is it on the control panel I can see these figures?
@@alantightwad2020 so you have 2 screen units with the Daikin right? One just to control the temps, but a second, bigger screen for the more technical stuff. It's on the bigger screen unit (maybe next to your water tank?) it's under "information"in the menu then "energy data" then "electricity input", scroll along to "since installation". Ours is 744kwh. And our produced heat states 2558kwh so
2558/744=3.43 cop or 343% efficiency
Let me know if you can't find it though. Would be interested to know your cop too to compare
@AndyKennedy hi Andy, I found the information on the display and since the install we've used 527 which produced 2171. So that's a cop/scop of 4.119 we have no gas supply now and are considering solar and batteries in new year. We are very happy with both Octopus and the heat pump.
Thanks both, it sounds like Andy has helped with this, and Alan, sounds like your system is working well!
We moved away from Agile this week and have switched to the cosy octopus tariff. I have now programmed hot water to heat in the dips but other wise run the system 24-7
Tom
Hi Tom. Quick question, when you are estimating your gas consumption to electric consumption are you allowing the difference in how they run? So your heat pump will be set to on 24 hours a day, obviously it’s not always on at this time depending on how it’s set up, weather comp, load comp, open loop etc, to how many people run a gas boiler, an hour or so in the morning and a few hours at night? Or is that estimated consumption with the boiler programmer constantly on 24 hours a day to keep the property let’s say at 21 degrees all the time like a heat pump?
Thanks
The problem is running a condensing gas boiler intermittently isn't the most efficient. The most efficient way to run a gas boiler is with weather compensation, and heating in the same way as a heat pump.
You might save a bit of money running it intermittently, but you sacrifice comfort and efficiency in the process.
So Tom's comparison is essentially best case for providing the same level of comfort etc.
@ I’m a heat pump installer of 14 years and a gas engineer of 20 years. Covered all the most popular courses that are on UA-cam as we know, so I have a great understanding how best to run a system but also how a mass majority of the country run their heating systems 👍 I think we need to be transparent and honest about everything
@ that’s why I was asking if the comparison was for like for like running which in most cases it definitely isn’t so the C02 ratios would be different. Thanks
How would you make that comparison? Is the average person saving any money by running their boiler for a few hours a day, or is the reduced efficiency actually costing them money?
@ Hi Robin. All I was asking was where he was getting his gas consumption from, was it a like for like keeping the house warm 24 hours a day or was it say general running of a boiler, a few hours here and there, nothing more nothing less, just wasn’t clarified I don’t think in the video. As a heat pump installer myself and my parents having a gas boiler, set to 50 degree flow keeping the house at 19 degrees constantly 24 hours a day, their gas consumption is more than running before, at 2 hours in the morning and a few hours in the evening, but they’re happy with the comfort for the price/consumption usuage.
Cosy 6 cop stats - oct 3.94, Nov 3.4 and so far for December 3.56
Thanks Pete - Great to hear a cosy performing so well. Probably a similar set of stats for our system over those months.
Would be interesting to compare against the costs of carbon offset schemes
Yeah, interesting point, although I would share caution on the majority of offsetting schemes available today, I am not sure on the confidence we can have on the additionality or how well maintained a tree planting scheme (for example) would be. I don't put much trust in offsetting, so would encourage real emissions reduction like electrification of heat or transport
Thanks
Tom