Major Advances with Heat Pumps in the Extreme Cold
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- The Problem with Heat Pumps and Cold Weather. Get Surfshark VPN at surfshark.deal... - Enter promo code UNDECIDED for 83% off and 3 extra months for FREE! Heat pumps are versatile, efficient, and great for both heating and cooling … or are they? Whenever heat pumps are mentioned, critics bring up their ineffectiveness in cold weather, so is that still true? Or do more modern heat pumps continue to work effectively in cold climates? The arguments against the “heat pump all the things” attitude appears to have some truth (at least on the surface). Should you really be pumped for heat pumps or is it all a bunch of hot air?
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Why did you install a water source heat pump when the payback period is so much longer when compared to an air source heat pump, and in some cases, is just not as cost effective? R&D in the air source heat pump segment is explosive because the technology is so much more affordable compared to water/geothermal. I would not be surprised if we continue to see dramatic increases in the efficiency of air source heat pump systems, such that water or geothermal systems make no economic sense in almost every conceivable scenario. Some HVAC or building scientists already allege that water/geothermal is simply not cost-effective in the face of air source heat pump offerings.
The video was somewhat misleading as the differences between air source and ground source heat pumps was not covered and talking points erratically jumped between the two systems. I would have also appreciated a more in-depth pyhsics explanation on what happens when outisde temperatures drop below 5°C (instead of waving everything off with the annual average COP and only a superficial mention of problems with the phase-change of the work fluid).
Thank you. I wondered about the cost of electric heating these days. Which I include heat pumps in. More of a fan of passive solar and thermal mass heat with masonry heater 85%+ efficient as supplemental. I am building off grid. So include extra solar and batteries in my price. Keeping solar systems separate. One system for smoke detectors, one for lights, one for kitchen d.c. appliances, one for one small inverter for power tools. Small simple solar systems like on boat lifts are cheap and easy. I wonder if spending more on insulation would be better than a heat pump? I have to use air tubes because of floor. So wondering if I could fit a heat pump in the tube. It has to function to drain heavier than air gases. Especially with a skillion masonry earthship. The off gassing in greenhouse. Don't want toxic organic gases to build up. Starting with cheap skillion pavilion frame on block piers. And will connect block piers for over insulated short cold north wall later.
I have no experience with heat pumps but a question about the difference between air and ground sourced types. It makes sense that the air sourced types would lose efficiency as temperatures exceed 100f or below minus 30 but is there any reason for ground sourced to do so.
Have You done a case study for a blackout situation with solar panels and heat pump?
Can Your solar panels, that feed into the grid also run Your own heat pump in case of a blackout or brownout?
My sister had a heat pump installed about four years ago. Last month, in our area of Canada, we had a temperature drop of -25c for a couple of days. Her heat pump is her main source of heat. She has never had an issue with getting heat.
Geothermal?
@@WhatTheHellIsWrongWithYouuI’ve never heard of a -25C one tho 🤷
The other problem is as temperatures drop, you need more “heat” just as they are getting less and less efficient.
Also when we have natural gas heaters, when someone’s gas system breaks down, they can get an electric heater and put it on a grid that isn’t heavily loaded.
I just moved to Idaho and it got down to -20 F (or nearly -30 C). Those are the kinds of temperatures I'd like to be sure it works still at.
@@jsbrads1 I don’t understand why people are so worried about “the grid”. Demand goes up, utilities will increase their capacity. Its not a you or I issue. I dont even heat my house with NG or Electric. We’re on an efficient, cheap pellet stove.
Geothermal heat pumps are not affected by air temperature, it’s the cheaper air source heat pumps that loose efficiency when cold.
I spent about 1 1/2 years working on a 'ski shack' that was heated by two large geothermal heat pumps, fed by a single vertical well. In the winter, there was a thick layer of frost on any section of the fluid pipes in the mechanical room where there were gaps in the insulation, including where the 'warm' fluid came out of the ground. Even though the source fluid was well below freezing, the three-story building was kept very comfortable.
Vertical well heat pump 100 to 400 feet deep
For a vertical system, holes (approximately four inches in diameter) are drilled about 20 feet apart and 100 to 400 feet deep.
Cost between $20,000 and $38,000
Unfortunately, vertical loops are the most expensive type of geothermal system to install, since installation involves deep and wide boring. A vertical loop installation costs between $20,000 and $38,000.
The electricity to pump up the water, assuming it is a deep well, was also probably significant. However, since the water was probably dumped into a holding pond for use on the snow cannons, they were able to kill two birds with one stone. I looked at pumping up water for geothermal, and the electricity to lift the water 500 feet killed the efficiency of using it for heat/cool. Plus, I needed then to do something with the water.
@@apostolakisl the geothermal brine fluid is circulated in a loop, there is no lifting involved as the pressure equals out. If you're in a cold climate it's the way to go. I have two 200 meter holes and a 7 kW heat pump (compressor draw), circulation pump is only some tens of Watts.
@@ixer76 And what is your cost of drilling that 400m of hole? Where I live, that would be about $60/meter . .. or $24000 for the holes, the piping and backfill. Now consider how many years it takes to recover $24000 because of your increased efficiency. Perhaps you pay 50 cents/kwh or something obscene like that and it makes sense. They wanted $80,000 to drill the 7 holes it would have taken to get me a geothermal heat pump at my location. And considering I have 8 months/year of AC, the holes would have gradually warmed up by the end of the season and been less efficient than air source. Unless your electricity is obscenely expensive, or you have easy access to shallow geothermal well, it makes no sense (cents) to do this.
@@apostolakisl 400m, what are you going to heat? That's a crazy big pump. 130-200m is usually the norm for normal sized house.
Matt, I have been using ground sourced geo-thermal (liquid to air) systems for the past twenty three years. The first system was a WaterFurnace (pump and dump) that was installed in 2000 and is still operational today. The second system installed was a HydroDelta in another new build that finally gave up the ghost last spring after sixteen years of operation. My replacement unit is a WaterFurnace again. This unit is far superior to the unit installed in 2000 and is 50% more efficient than it’s predecessor (HydroDelta). Even with energy prices being more expensive than when we built our home seventeen years ago, our monthly bills are half of what we were paying two years ago. We are heating and cooling exclusively with the geothermal system, our bills range from $ 108.00 to $ 238.00, our home is 4,200 sqft. We are not passive home certified nor compliant, though we removed as much of the thermal bridging we could.
Always like your content! Keep up the good work. Paul
Have had Geothermal for past 10 yrs well to well hydron module it's garbage not any cheaper ...when it breaks down dig deep ... don't get sucked in !!!
My parents installed a vertical one around two years ago here in the Swiss mountains. Together with our solar panels our house is now basically self sufficient and both the heat pump and the panels have worked fine in the two years even during cold days in winter
You found solar panels that produce electricity without the sun?
@@FiZc Although this is a very common misconception they actually do receive sunlight in Switzerland.
@@TheCoon1975 Sunlight during the night or shady/rainy days? Tell me more, please ;)
@ No, no that would be silly. The way it works is during the night time you can take power back from the grid. Most homes with enough solar capacity are able to feed more energy into the grid during the daylight hours so they have a net surplus of energy. It's a balancing act where you share the load between homeowners and the energy provider so that they don't need to run at full capacity during daylight hours because of backfed energy. It's not a perfect system but it's certainly better than building more coal fired plants to run everything and we can't let perfection be the enemy of progress. There are other options as well, for example at my place in Texas I have enough capacity to charge my battery banks during the day and that will usually be more than enough to do whatever I need at night without even pulling anything from the grid. I know this is prohibitively expensive for most people so I don't suggest this as a perfect solution either, I was just in a position where I could afford to install this equipment on my new built home so I did it because I enjoy the feeling of not being reliant on outside power sources. It won't be economical enough to pay for itself within the years of life I have left but that's not what it was about for me personally. Battery tech will improve and become cheaper so eventually this will be a much better option for more people.
@@FiZc I’m assuming you’ve never heard of batteries?
I have had an open loop heat pump since 2005. Works great. Most issues I have had are with the water well that supplies the ground water which is where you get your heat. Properly constructed closed ground loops will prevent those issues but add costs. Once I figured out all the issues using the open loop it works great. It really comes down to maintenance on the open loop side and tricks to make it easier to deal with.
We installed mini-split air-sourced heat pumps last fall, and have been heating with a combination of wood + mini-splits this winter (in NH). Getting a smaller system (sized for cooling, not heating) saved on up-front costs. Our mini-splits are rated down to 5F, and are great without wood down to about 25F. I doubt we'll need supplemental wood once we re-insulate and re-side.
If you want to heat when colder, all you need is a larger heat exchanger(within reason of course), but this is the main limit. A GOOD HVAC technician can add a much larger heat exchanger to grab that heat from the outside air.
Don't be so sure. Also live in NH, and I heat primarily with a mitsubishi h2i cold cimate heat pump connected to a CERV forced air system. New build home, super insulated (10" thick exterior walls) and super air tight. When it dibbed to -20 this winter the house was 55F by morning and unable to climb without the aid of electric heaters and gas direct-vent fireplace. Even when it dipped to right around 0F the house got down to 60F by morning. The manufacturer says 100% capacity to -5F, but that's not what I experience, even with an energy efficient home. The coeffecient of performance seems to drop off rapidly.
I am a viewer of Technology Connections and have been sold on the idea of heat pumps for a long time.
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It was such a light-bulb moment when I learned that a heat pump is essentially an air conditioner that can run the temperature in the other direction, becoming a heater.
@@MonkeyJedi99 Everyone has been using them going on 70+ years now. A lot of cheap legacy infrastructure still exists though. Though with the dirt cheap price of NG... heat pumps are still more expensive to run long term. Only if you use solar thermal and geothermal in combination does the price over the VERY long term come close to NG.
@@w8stral What is NG in your context?
The only thing the abbreviation points to for me is National Guard, which doesn't add anything sensical to your comment.
I had a Fujitsu cold climate heat pump installed at my place in northern Vermont back in 2017. I have had days where it's been well below -20°F and it ran fine. The temperatures where it has the most trouble is when it's around freezing with a high relative humidity. That's really the only time I notice it because it has to go into the defrost cycle fairly frequently. The only other times I have a problem is when a tree takes out the power but I hope to get solar and batteries to deal with that at some point.
That's gonna be one hell of a solar setup. Won't consider propane or wood backup?
Confirm, in PNW we have damp winters and my heat pump does a lot of defrost cycles when it drops just below freezing.
Every since PPL bought out my Utility provider, I've had more outages... its ridiculous.
So powerloss when you need heat most would flat out suck... so good idea to get solar if you can afford it.
@@MRSketch09 Bro my modest house uses 10kwh to heat on a modest day, can't imagine the consumption on a 0 degree F day. I would need a six figure solar system to get close to heating my house with a mini split.
Generator for backup?
Big fan of the channel. As far as heat pumps: I spent 15 years in a rattle wagon installing & servicing HVAC equipment from residential to industrial. I then moved to and currently in systems integrations/building automation dealing with a LOT of HVAC and energy equipment for the past 10 years. Not all heat pumps are created equal. The majority of residential heat pumps are air source (like a standard air cooled residential AC). This leaves the heat pump impacted by a number of factors but in particular outdoor air temperature. The hotter it is outside the harder the unit must work and the same is true with the colder it gets outside. The further below freezing or above 90F air source begins having issues. For heating you have to consider the energy efficiency of the unit, snowfall, defrost cycle, and how cold winters average in your area (specifically days below 20F) - there is a point that switching to auxiliary/emergency heat be it electric resistance heater, hot water coil, gas fired becomes increasingly required for cost and comfort. The biggest complaint from new air sourced heat pump owners always claimed in the winter when they first tried heating with one - "the air coming out of my vents isn't very warm" ... depending on the air source heat pumps age, efficiency, sizing, install, condition, etc. the supply air temperature will be traditionally cooler than that provided by an electric or gas fired furnace - with the heat pump working correctly. Average life of typical residential air source heat pumps - if you get 15 years you're doing great. I had an air source heat pump that lasted 30 years - I however did my own maintenance & repairs and could get parts & refrigerant at cost - at about 18 years the amount of maintenance & repairs began ramping up quite rapidly. The "efficiency" & cost savings MYTH that sales people in the HVAC industry use to up sell their customers ... You will never reach those numbers by just swapping out an old system for a newer more efficiently rated system. Why? a typical residential single family home is wildly inefficient for infiltration - if you're not going to upgrade your insulation, air barriers, windows, thermal bridges, etc. then paying for a high end air source heat pump you'll never see the savings promised or have the unit pay itself off in the time claimed - your house is still leaking and energy costs just keep increasing. The only heat pump I would buy, & have plans to have installed in 2024, is a closed loop ground source (geothermal) system. When sizing you can't just take current weather/climate - you need to look at projections for what summers & winters are likely to be like over the life of the system to meet those demands ... the upfront price is eye watering - but if you pay all that money for something sized for today it may meet demands for the next few years but be completely inadequate in 5 - 10 years. Will all your heating and cooling inside your home be provided by forced air? Will heating be provided by in floor radiant heat? Baseboard radiant heat? If heat provided by forced air will you have aux/emergency heat installed in case the heat pump goes down? How old and efficient is your hot water heater? Will you replace the HWH and have it connected to the geothermal?
If BTU/$ vs BTU/$ a heatpump is more efficient than a furnace, how is the air sealing going to affect that ratio? Why would a heatpump lose more heat with poor air sealing and insulation vs a furnace, its heat going to the duct either way.
@@williamlancto3655in addition for a forced air system, the air discharge temperature for a furnace is usually hot, around 110-120*F, which forms a stratified layer of hot air against the ceiling where there are usually tons of holes and gaps for the heat to escape out of the house. On a heat pump system the temperature of the air is only warm, between 80-100*F, so you'll get better mixing and less force driving through the gaps/cracks (which should also help preserve humidity inside the house).
@@williamlancto3655 Heat pumps are very impractical if you live in a northern climate and have an older home (40+ years) and/or your home is not very energy efficient. 2+ weeks ago we had -20F temps with a -30F wind chill 35-40 miles north of Boston. It really depends on your situation and where you live.
What the heck is a "rattle wagon"?
@@AnyBodyWannaPeanut Company/business truck...
Hello Matt, I noticed one big draw back you missed but might not effect the US market as much. Most heat pumps water flow temps normally max about 50°C rather than the traditional 70-80°C. This mean on a wet system with radiators the rads output is halved but the reduced flow temp. This leads to most homes needing to install massive radiators to achieve the same output needed to overcome the houses steady state heat lose. This can add a massive cost to the install unless you have a new modern well insulated house designed with a low flow temp in mind.
The other thing that is missed is price per unit for each type of fuel. If the COP of a boiler is 0.9 and the heat pump is 2.5, but gas is 1/3 the cost of electric then it is still cheaper to run a boiler than a heat pump. Not very eco but still something to consider when waying up the facts. Hope this helps
How do you compare the price of gas vs electricity as it pertains to efficiency?
Don't forget the summer- if you need air conditioning it's pretty hard to do without using electricity.
@@kj_H65f I'm in the UK so we rarely install AC in domestic homes. Therefore we only really need heating in the winter. This being so I can compare the winter COP for the heat pump of 2.5 (1kw in of electric = 2.5kw out of heat) against my system boiler of 0.9. (1kw in of gas = 0.9kw out of heat).
So to put 1kwh of heat in via the heat pump at average UK rate of 34p/kWh would be 13.6p (34p / 2.5). To do the same via gas at UK rate 10p/kWh would be 11.1p/kWh (10p/0.9) Therefore you can see in this case it would be cheaper still to run gas. Also save the £20k I would have to spend to swap and upgrade my radiators again to deal with the lower water temp in radiators.
Hope this helps answer your question.
I ran the numbers and figured with my costs for gas and electricity I’ll need a COP of 3 to break even (western South Dakota). That should be achievable on average. My understanding is that the COP increases with a warmer ambient (outdoor) air temperature. So peak COP is apparently more like 7. I think the single reported figure for COP may be based upon a set temperature or average of a defined range. But with the tax credit and prospect of higher gas costs, as well as my aim to decarbonize, it’s time for a heat pump! Still mulling over geothermal vs. air...
COP of at least 3 is the general rule. As far as massive radiators are concerned that can be tackled using dual or triple panel radiators with convector fins attached. This means that the new radiators might project from the wall a bit more but have the same wall area. The best option is to use underfloor heating loops wherever possible.
@@rogerphelps9939 Well that's the problem. The heatpump is expensive. Installing underfloor heating loops is expensive. New radiators are expensive. Better isolation is expensive. This is why in the Netherlands, where houses used to be designed to be warmed with 90C gas boilers, are very expensive to convert to heatpump solutions running most efficiently at 35C. And then there is the problem with the grid not build to deliver all that electricity.
Could you do a follow up video that focuses on air sourced heat pumps? Additionally talk about the potential installation savings that may be had when living in more mild climates and replacing a current ac/furnace combo.
Matt, you really need to more clearly address the differences between air-source heat pumps versus ground-source heat pumps.
I suggest you differentiate between air source and ground source heat pumps. Ground source are much less susceptible to loss of efficiency during extreme cold than are air source although, as you point out, air source units are improving significantly in recent years.
Ground source heat pumps also have a huge additional up front cost. It’s like solar panels. You need to have it for decades for it to make sense (will vary based on your cost of electricity and gas).
Yeah, it's pretty odd to talk about how heat pumps work fine in cold climates and then mention drilling a 400ft hole for his heat pump installation without explaining why.
@@adamhero459Well, it depends... If you have chilly weather, like here in northern Sweden with -20 to -40C, then it still has a really high COP since the whole is very warm compared to outside air temp. And this means a lot less electricity used for the same heat.
I am a technician that works on heat pumps and I found the problem with them in southern Minnesota where I am is that the balance point is usually somewhere around 20 to 30 degrees so the biggest problem I see with them is that they do not put out enough heat in cold weather
I live in South Dakota and have used an air-exchange heat pump to heat my home to air temperatures down to -20F. The heat pump will send hot compressed freon into the home regardless of the outside air temps. Where they fall short is eventually your heat loss will exceed the heating ability of the heat pump. Heat pump heated air temp = 105F, forced air gas heat is much hotter.
Congratulations on your vertical well heat pump system. I've had one installed 14 years ago, using 4 wells 150 meters deep. Great investment. Together with solar panels, equals zero energy costs.
damn, that's my dream setup..
Please tell us when the investment paid off?
Geothermal really depends on your location. If you are Midwest then it can be worth it. But inverter style heat pumps can work significantly lower. My central heat is an inverter HP and it works down to 20*, and the only reason it can’t go lower is I went with the cheaper smaller unit, partly because my house is old and the ductwork is screwy and a larger one wouldn’t have been worth it. But I live in the pacific NW so we have only had one week so far this winter I had to regularly run my furnace.
Vertical well heat pump 100 to 400 feet deep
For a vertical system, holes (approximately four inches in diameter) are drilled about 20 feet apart and 100 to 400 feet deep.
Cost between $20,000 and $38,000
Unfortunately, vertical loops are the most expensive type of geothermal system to install, since installation involves deep and wide boring. A vertical loop installation costs between $20,000 and $38,000.
@@drdoolittle5724 Only 22 more years to the break even mark...
Matt, heat pumps have a reverse-cycle deforst (same as summer cooling mode, but the inside fan is in off or run at very low speed) to clear the outside coil when it ices up, just make sure to allow enogh ground clearance or soakaway for the defrost water. BTW, nearly all modern AC condenser units (the compressor and coil outside) run on power inverters, which changes the compressor pressure dynamically, by changing its speed, and so increase its efficiency. Japanese AC units have had this tech for decades. To make some power out the the unit, Introduce a thermal generator to the condensor in the summer, which converts the excess heat to electricity that can be fed to your power wall, making it even more efficient.
Only the most expensive units have variable speed compressors using DC. Mid-range units may be two speed, but aren't using inverters. One of the other challenges of the inverters is cooling them, especially in extreme heat. Trane uses the cold-side refrigerant to cool the inverter, but repeatedly has startup problems during extreme heat, when there is no cold refrigerant for a while after startup.
@@johnhaller5851
Depends.. here in northern europe inverter HP's are quite common. As we don't need to cool the system itself (+35C outside is way beyond normal) a bit more complicated electronics is no problem. And its fun to see HP reversing itself for defrosting at minus C - all the heat that was pumped to ~100 m2 concrete floor reversed for few minutes. BIG cloud of steam :)
@@johnhaller5851 I think you need to do more research... Mitsubishi and Daikin have been using PCM inverters (not DC) for at least 15 years.
@@michaelmurray2595 I didn't say there were no inverter heat pumps, but they they are not common in the US. Most people buy the cheapest unit they can find, as they only replace it when the old unit is condemned, and the cheapest will be a 240V single stage unit. This is almost always a poor choice, as a single-stage heat pump sized to heat a home will be too big to effectively dehumidify a house in the summer. And if they will not pay for a variable speed compressor, they certainly won't pay for a whole house dehumidifier.
5:07
That -5⁰ number depends on the fluid used.
You can design heat pumps with different optimal operating temperatures.
The downside is that if they work better in the cold they might not work as well in the heat etc...
You want them to be able to achieve both a liquid and gas state in the temperatures you got available to you.
8:33
Exactly!
Most heatpumps on the Norwegian market currently works best at -35⁰C (-31⁰F) and up.
Below -35⁰C the ones in *our* market starts to struggle (After all colder then -35 is rare in Norway, although it definitely *does* happen)
What about +30 degrees C and up?
Well you won't be using the thing for heating at that temperature, will you? As far as air conditioning is concerned it is pretty likely that, just as in the UK, air conditioning is not really necessary because it is unpleasantly hot for only a few days per year.@@SeattlePioneer
Matt, the mechanism for transferring heat into the living environment is one of the major factors in overall system efficiency. For example, conventional radiators employ 55°C (min) water circulation. In contrast I have a ~70 tonne foundation slab *within* the insulated shell of my build, and this includes embedded underfloor heating (UFH) loops to heat the entire 70t slab. I can circulate wat at 30°C and this is plenty enough, and can put this heat in pretty much at any time of the day, that is whenever the electricity is cheapest. ASHPs have a far better CoP and better cold-weather performance at 30°C vs 55°C output, so the system is far cheaper to run. Putting the insulation under and around the slab instead on top; casting UFH within the slab adds relatively few $K to the cost of the slab _if_ this is designed in pre-build. Hence, these systems are far more efficient on new-builds optimised for their use and building codes should be updated to facilitate this.
Likewise DHW systems using PCM heat stores and input preheated from a 30°C buffer or 20°C slab can also work out to be cheap to run, but again the initial install really needs to be optimised for this for it to be cost-effective.
I have a 10 year-old Daikin Altherma 16kW Air to Water heat pump running on 400V for our 205sq.m. house. It heats up water and circulates it through a 300L boiler (for hot water) and the fan-assisted convection radiators around the house + towel rails in the bathrooms, it works great and is quite economical. The pump heats up water only up to 50C (some models go up to 70C), but at -10 / -15C outside temperature, 45C water is enough to keep the house at 23C. Per sq.m., my heating/cooling bills are lower than anyone I know without a central heat pump, whether their heating is on gas, electricity, wood pellets, or central city supply (a local thermal power plant supplies some neighbourhoods with hot water for radiators and taps). As an added benefit, I can run the pump in cooling mode in the summer. That being said, I do have 28 vacuum solar tubes on the roof that help heat up the boiler and thus increase the efficiency of the pump during the day, and they ensure we have very cheap hot water in the summer when the pump is in cooling mode. The boiler's built-in 9kW heater is basically obsolete, we never use it. My only regret is that the house doesn't have underfloor heating but it was all built and furnished before we bought it.
PS For anyone considering a heat pump - keep in mind the fancy big brands have expensive maintenance too. Recetnly a water flow sensor died on mine, new one is 400 euros (without labour)... for a tiny sensor in a plastic housing, absurd. The main board is 3k euro, the small plastic control unit which is just a low resolution display and a few buttons is like 200 euro... If this Daikin dies, I'm considering buying a cheaper model from local brands. Although marginally less efficient, considering the high maintenance costs of the big brands (plus, waiting for parts to arrive), it might work out cheaper even in the long run to have a cheaper local brand.
By me cooling is the much more important thing, but as a heat pump is pretty much the same price as a cooling only unit I went with the heat pump, as in the smaller sizes the cooling only is actually rare and expensive. 1 extra wire in the cable set is all you have, to control the valve, and thus easy to do. Actually used it for a whole 2 days this last winter, because it was unseasonably cold for the sub tropics, dropping below 10C on a day or two in the morning, so the warmth was a nice thing to have for an hour or so, before it was turned off again, and natural air was better. Summer time it was needed, keeping the inside cool and dry, as it was hot and humid outside, so well worth it. $350 for the unit was well worth it.
I have been in a similar position. Cooling is more important than heating but I have seen one Achilles heel when used for heating. If the humidity is high and the air is cold icing is a substantial problem. The heat used to keep the unit ice free is too much. Luckily those days are not too common. But a frozen fog really does prevent it from working.
Interesting that Matt chose to go with a ground sourced heat pump for his new house. I was under the impression that those units aren't subject to freezing in the winter, and don't lose much, if any efficiency when the air temperature plummets. If this is correct, I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video. Of course, the installation costs are substantially higher for these type units, but hopefully a new home installation is a bit less.
That is correct - they are less affected, outside of genuinely polar regions.
We installed a Waterfurnace 3 ton system in our current home using a 520' well into bedrock. ClimateMaster coined the explanation, "GSHP don't create heat, or cooling, the merely move heat". That well I mentioned, it's a thermal mass that stores heat in the summer to be used in the winter. It's dirt cheap to run (KWH) and requires virtually no service.
Yeah he focused on air side efficiency improvements. However the math I've been doing for GS is stymied by the continuously climbing electric utility rates which seem even worse than my cost for heating oil increasing since the war. The break-even seems to be around $3.90 per gallon right now. Plus the capital expense of installing not just the GS stuff but retrofitting my A/C system given I'm coming from hot-water radiators. it's seems that without solar (which my utility has all kinds of net metering limitations on) the conversion cost may not be worth it. So there's the reducing CO2 footprint aspect that seems to be the main driver right now.
@@alan31298 can you shop around for your electric supplier? The one we had for 9 years just raised their rate to $0.24/kwh. We switched to one @ $0.16/kwh. We're in northern CT. Dec 485kw and Jan 503kw are $77 and $80 respectively. The are our 2 worst months. Avg heating/mo is 203 kwh ($32). Avg cooling is 10kwh. The other catch phrase is "multiple ways to make electricity, only one way to make oil!".
@@alan31298 you have another possibility to consider, radiant heat. Rather than circulating water just shy of boiling, circulate water continuously at 108. Standardly radiant is in-floor but where you already have the plumbing. Warning: nerd alert! Another catch phrase for GSHP is "low and slow". It's low pressure and temp and slow speed. In our case it's "forced" warm air. The temp leaving the "furnace " is mid to high 80s and it's slow enough you literally can't hear the air leaving the ductwork. The return temp is 70. As one can conclude, the blower is on more but, again, it's not hurricane force velocity it's merely circulating the air. The fan speed is strictly a function of delta T. In your case it would be pump speed. Water retains heat way better than air. This would be a terrific research project for Matt! Swap out the oil fired boiler in traditional furnace for high efficiency electric. Also Matt, ASHP water heater! Ours is half the run cost of standard electric water heater. The water is heated to 121°.
In 2017 I had a Mitsubishi H2 (Hyper heat) style heat pump installed with traditional forced air system. The contractor put in an electric heat pack in the air handler for backup heating. We live near Columbus, OH. Here it seldom gets below 0 F, but at times it has gone as low as -20 F at night. The heat pump has worked flawlessly, I clean the outdoor unit by vacuuming the dust and dirt off the coils in the spring and the fall, and of course the indoor air filter every 3 months, but that's it. I found out by accident after two years, that the electrical breaker for the backup heat had never been turned on. This winter it got down to about -20 F at night, in the morning the house was 2 degrees lower than the thermostat and so the backup heat should have turned on but didn't. I need to find out why it didn't turn on. I am very pleased with the system.
A place where I previously worked had a number of Mitsubishi "Mr. Slim" split units. They all worked great for many years, even in weather as low as -5F but when the broke, and were "repaired" by the local dealer, they never worked as good again. I think this was because the repair technicians treated them like ordinary air conditioners and didn't have training to work on high performance units.
I have had heat pumps for 30 years in various houses The biggest problem is unskilled technicians who can not charge a split system properly. Pre charged connecting lines are a solution but are some times messy to install.
We live in the mountains in CO and installed a heat pump last year, and it’s been great. Even when it’s been well below zero. As expected, electric use went up but our gas bill went way down. House has stayed warm and we will probably expand with one or two more to fully cover the whole home in the next few years, especially given how wicked volatile gas prices have been. Hoping to also put most or all of the system on solar as well to reduce or even eliminate our dependence on big utilities.
Living in eastern Canada most homes were heated with oil, and I used to have an oil fired boiler supplying hot water to an "in floor" heating system. After a couple of years of research I purchased a 50,000 btu Arctic heat pump. The unit has an inverter driven compressor, a 50 gal/12kw buffer tank and backup, and also preheats my domestic hot water. After two winters I am very impressed and the only time the backup heater cut in was on a stormy night in January with minus 24 degree C. At this point I am very impressed and glad I went down that road.
I have been thinking, why just get a heat pump for HVAC? Why not have the whole house integrated into one system. You have heat pump water heaters, freezers and refirgrators, and heat pump dryers. Connect them all together, with a solar pre-heating water tank, and solar heat rejection, and a thermal battery, and you could do everything for very little energy in life time costs.
the only down side I could think of is single point of failure. lose your compressor and you lose everything.
Complexity, risks of leaks, and heat loss during the fluid transfer. It is a nice idea but not practical.
System complexity and lack of modularity. In order for complex, multi point systems to work, they are best all from one company and product line. I deal with these types of things in the commercial/industrial world, and there's a point that it's just not worth it. The other issue is qualified service personnel. It's hard enough to find personnel that specialize in one particular area. The thought of getting personnel that are fully qualified in that many systems is just shy of a miracle. Having stand-alone heat pump systems (for now) is your best bet to keep everything working.
We have all those heat pumps and will be adding the hvac portion soon. The hot water booster tank will drop the hot water heating costs even more than the heat pump water heater already has. In a way, they are all connected- by the electrical supply lines.
Modular sealed compressor systems built in a factory setting will always be more reliable than a custom loop of any sort. I will stick with what I have for the modularity as noted in the other replies.
Here in Europe, or at least in Germany it is common these days to install one heat pump for the whole house. The heat pump handles heating (mostly underfloor or radiator water heating) and hot water. No problems. Thousands and thousands of these systems are online here. I myself get one this year. It replaces my old gas boiler which also produced the heat for heating and warm water.
Hi Matt, I always enjoy your vids but this one seems a bit too much hype for a system you haven't used and tested yet.
There is a big difference in geothermal and air source heat pumps. Geothermal uses heat from pipes in the ground where the temp stay constant and air source relies on ambient air temp which varies tremendously. Air source work fine in hot temps for an AC but as the temp drops below 40F they lose efficiency and at 0F they lose as much as 50% efficiency.
Some new air source do better BUT they rely on additional heat coils and backup heaters and are very expensive. If your home is not well insulated and sealed an air source heat pump will need a backup heat source in cold climates.
For a ground source you need permits and enough land for the ground pipes so not an option for many people and a lot of additional expense.
Heat pumps still use electricity so if you have a blackout you won't have heat. I recommend propane or wood stove where allowed as backup systems for cold climates.
Vertical well heat pump 100 to 400 feet deep. For a vertical system, holes (approximately four inches in diameter) are drilled about 20 feet apart and 100 to 400 feet deep. Unfortunately, vertical loops are the most expensive type of geothermal system to install, since installation involves deep and wide boring. A vertical loop installation costs between $20,000 and $38,000.
Summary: Air source heat pumps work fine for AC but not more efficient than an Energy Star rated AC unit and in cold temps they lose efficiency and most homes require a backup heat source. Especially in houses that are not well insulated and sealed.
Geothermal ground source heat pumps work better but are also way more expensive, require trenches or drilling and permits and may not work for homes with limited space.
Unless you have a big solar power system installed heat pumps will not work in a blackout so you should still have a backup heat system installed.
Vertical well systems do not require much land.
@@JRP3 100 to 400 feet deep
For a vertical system, holes (approximately four inches in diameter) are drilled about 20 feet apart and 100 to 400 feet deep.
@@solarcabin Yes, so exactly as I said, they do not require much land. 2 wells 20 ft apart would handle most needs.
@@JRP3 between $20,000 and $38,000
Unfortunately, vertical loops are the most expensive type of geothermal system to install, since installation involves deep and wide boring. A vertical loop installation costs between $20,000 and $38,000.
@@solarcabin And that still has nothing to do with my point that vertical systems do not require much land. Unrelated data does nothing to alter my accurate premise.
I'm nearly 70, and back in the 80's my parents did the heat pump in the lake shore home here in Minnesota. Both ends of the HVAC was done with forced air. 1 simple unit for heating and cooling. We only had 1 issue that was eventually a bad plan. The outlet line was not well enough insolated or... We had to do a heat tape in that outlet line for those occasional -35F and lower temps. To clarify they dug a well, it was an artesian flow type, 15 psi initially when capped at nearly 20 feet above ground. Years later the psi dropped to 7-1/2 lbs. It was recapped at 8-9 feet. At 15 psi there was enough water flow that kept the water outlet flowing during those rare cold snaps of that North wind blowing on this south shore lake home build, a walk out 2 story home. Anyway, with that higher flow rate the water never got cold enough via flow rate and pipe elbow cavitation and related temperature creating flow details. So when the flow rate dropped via the PSI volume pressure change, the pipe would freeze up internally over the length of time of the killing North wind freezes. We had both electric baseboard heat and wood fireplace installed for that accidental issues. Yea it was a bit brutal to thaw that frozen water line (wind & torches problems in snowmobile suits and more). And then heat taping it and re-insulate covering repairs. Yea a few years it has dipped to that -60 degree F. There was no issues after that other than doing the yearly pre-inspection of everything. As far as I know the home is still using the same HVAC system as of a little more than 1+ years ago. One can see the over flow pipe opening as an open water flow back to the lake on the shoreline.. Oh, there were days the 90's & 2000's when the roads could not be plowed for the snow removal. You can't leave! It was on a cul-de-sac road and even V snow plows could not break through the 6+ feet tall snow drifts, much less do anything with a little 36" wide snow blower being able to do any dent in the snow pack and those drifts. I got stuck in one of those over nights and was there for days.
We have used Panasonic air to air heat pump since 2003. Changed the old one in 2021, and are now using a Panasonic HZ25UKE as the only heat source for our living room, kitchen and hall (around 75 square meters).
We had temperatures of -15 celcius this winter, and had no problem keeping the heat.
Cost of heatpump + installatin, about 2200 dollar.
One benefit that is never mentioned is recovering the space that a conventional furnace takes up in your home when you replace that furnace with a heat pump. I suspect that the average space used by a furnace is in the 30 - 50 square foot range depending on the size of the house / furnace. When we installed our heat pump and removed the old furnace, we recovered about 50 square feet of interior space because the heat pump is installed outside. So, figure out what the $value per square foot of your house and multiply that times the square feet recovered by removing your old furnace to get a ballpark idea of savings when you do your heat pump purchase arithmetic. Of course, this is not a perfect measure - your furnace may be in your in-home garage and you may not attribute much value to that space. In my case, it opened up a key space in my basement to enlarge a guest bedroom and that was very valuable to me. YMMV.
Lolol. Your furnaces are bigger than our English homes.
But you still need something to blow the air through your home?
What was installed in place of the furnace to blow the air through the ducts?
That's 6-7 feet square!. Our furnace is about 2' x4".
@@thehobe150 I think he was referring to the total area required for access. There are some heaters that can be put in a closet with limited clearance, but most require quite a bit of area for access for maintenance etc.
Thanks for the insight. So removing the oil tank from my garage would be an added bonus to removing the boiler from the basement of my small house.
I live in Romania. We have a mid-European climate - from +35C to -25C (+95F to -13F). I have 2 systems (for redundancy) - a minisplit (1-1) and a multisplit (4-1) from Daikin. Air-to-air heat pumps. 2 quite silent external units, mounted on ground frames (out of the snow/water), plus 5 internal wall-mounted units. Efficiency decreases with cold, but still works very well. Plus I choose which of 5 home areas to heat or cool individually with a range of fully automatic settings, and incorporated air filters/cleaners/ionisers. It is the cheapest, easiest, and least efficient heat pump system, but still a major saving and improvement over any other conventional heating or cooling system, and environmentally friendly. It can be easily installed in most existing structures with minimal invasion. Combined with an adequate solar power system, and either network power exchange (buy-back or swap kWh) OR a battery bank - nett heating/cooling costs per year can easily be ZERO, and capital investment can be recuperated in much less than 10 years (sometimes only 4 years) with a guaranteed equipment life span of 20+ years. No brainer.
Very interesting and I'm glad progress is made. But since I live in an area which easily hits -40 in the winter it's a no go for me.
You may be asking "What unit are you using?" Well good news, both Celsius and Fahrenheit are roughly the same at that temperature.
Just found this presentation and found it very interesting.
May I add? I live in a large raised ranch (2600 sq.ft.). The home was built in '79. Still has a perfectly functioning Heil forced air furnace original to the home, yes, the model with a 150,000 btu burner!
Since in my town here in MA., we have our own hydro plant, I started to investigate split heat pump systems and wanted to go electric. I decided to go with Mitsubishi. Now, a raised ranch is really a two story home, and it was sized with one 30k btu NON HyperHeat ODU and 3 top of the line air handlers. Two on the second floor (one at each end of the home), and one on the first floor in the large living room.
I did NOT account for the two bedrooms and bath on the first floor at the opposite end and so...............NO HEAT! (had to run little space heaters) After just short of 1.5 years with new system, running as it should now in it's second winter, I can say, it really does make warm air close to it's +5 degree rating. To continue.........
I decided to contact my HVAC guys once again a few weeks ago as of this writing, and had them come back to size the remainder of the first floor and it's long hallway to those rooms mentioned. They added another 12k btu (single ODU). This one is rated down to -5 and is a standard model NOT Hyper heat. So, improvements in tech right there.
It was 12 degrees the other morning, and this new additional Mitsu unit was coasting along with warm air keeping it nice and compfy. I decided to push it to see if it could out perform my 30k btu system. Set the fan on 4th speed, and thermostat to 80! In about 3 minutes time, the warm output turned to bordering on HOT when I held my hand in front of the output, and was right up there where my gas furnace ducts feel in temp.
When we have short cold snaps that go into the single numbers and below zero, I DO run the gas furnace for a short bit to give the heat pumps a 'jump start' until out door temps get around 10 degrees, then the heat pumps take over.
Thanks for reading my experiences with an 'extended' mini-split system which is my PRIMARY heat source. My rebate request just got excepted and because the new addition has a SEER of 23.1 and 12.5 HSPF, I am hoping for a good return. (O:
I have two air source heat pumps. One connects to two mini splits and the other to one. Both are LG. The single unit works fine down to -30C. The other starts to struggle at -20C and is less efficient (not enough heat out) if both mini splits are going at the same time. The double unit is also prone to icing up at temperatures close to zero. Service guy says the defroster works, but it can’t defrost serious ice build up (or apparently prevent it). Now when it ices up I really load up the fire place till I am sweating then turn on the air conditioning mode - defrosts in no time after that.
Love the single unit, not too impressed with the double. Note that they were installed just before I bought the house, so I don’t know the sales pitch for the double.
Welcome to the party Murica! 🎉
I am from Michigan but for 13 years have been living in Sweden, the heat pump capital of the world. 90% of single family homes use heat pumps here, mostly air source, about 20% ground source.
I live in the arctic (68 deg latitude) and have a mini-split supplemented with wood. COP drops to around 1.5 when it’s -25C, but it still covers most of our heat needs. This is also an old, basic cabin with minimal insulation and old windows. A new house would have no issues.
If you are planning to have cooling anyway, a reversible heat pump is an economic no-brainer.
I live in Australia where it very rarely gets to say -5 deg C, First I have found that the new Air to Air Mini Splits with DC inverter technology have really worked for me. The unit is less than a year old but has kept my small house approx 100 m2 or 10 squares at around 22 deg C in three rooms. It has been running 24hrs a day using around 20Kwhrs per day (that of course is everything). The great thing with the mini splits is that you could buy two or more for extra rooms far simpler than Air to Water to install. I love them and of course in this hot country they cool as well.
Actually heat pumps would even work in the Antarctic you have a wonderful heat source the Ocean which at around 1 deg C is really hot. So our evaporator unit could go under water it of course would not be cheap to install but imagine using wind turbines and solar to run the unit. Could save heaps of diesel fuel, I notice that when any new technology comes out there are so many "cant do" people who lampoon any new ideas. I can recall in the 1970.s when i was and still, a solar energy freak, l was hounded for decades that photovoltaics would not be able to deliver large scale power.
Well considering this opposition, gradually it is happening.
Matt, Congratulations and thank you for the work of your Channel. Informative, entertaining, and most importantly, an accurate presentation on a wide variety of engineering and enviro-science topics. Keep up the good work.. Cheers
I'm in the process of building a cargo trailer rv conversion. My HVAC system is a Gree Sapphire 9000 BTU unit. The COP is listed as 4.47. It is rated to heat efficiently down to -22F/-30C. I think it can work at lower temperatures, but it's less efficient than a resistance heater at that point.
I put a mini split in my office in my detached pole barn shop. It has only been down to 4F this winter and the unit has never stopped putting out heat. While it works I don't get that nice work feeling you get from combustion so I added a propane heater that I use while I am in the office and run the heat pump overnight to keep the chill off.
We put in 2 mini splits and our power bill went from $520 to $290 for the same period plus we were charging a PHEV that we didn't have the year before. They were just cheaper ones found on amazon but they work great, here around Seattle the coldest it's gotten this winter has been about 15-20F and they still keep working, not as hot but no problem keeping the house warm. We put one in at my work also where they still used an oil furnace, and it was about $700 or more to fill the tank. Just missing 1 oil fill nearly paid for the whole thing. Plus last summer they had excellent a/c just as a bonus, course any furnace is useless in the summer while a heat pump is a year round investment.
We installed a water to air heat pump that uses circulating ground water instead of solely relying on air temp to heat or cool. A year after we moved into our house we experienced below zero weather for 21 straight days. When the temps dropped below -15 degrees, the furnace converted over to the electric forced air part of the furnace. We had gas heat in our former home and it was a much warmer heat. Heat pump heat is what I call luke warm heat.
I installed 3 senville units in October of 2022, and I live in the finger lakes area of NYS. These heat pumps are the only heat I have, made it through last winter without any problems. Supposedly they can heat to -22 degrees Fahrenheit. It never got below 0 last winter, so far so good, my highest electric bill was 350.00 for 1 month.
Love my ductless HP. However, don't forget about the max heat operation. Last year we had hit 115 & my HP shut down. The panic set in, No A/C 🥵. Quick tip. Put a mister by the fan to help cool it down.
Matt, I to live in Central New England & switched to a heat pump hot water heater from an electric hot water heater this year. In short, I cannot believe the massive savings. I’m literally sitting over 40% savings over my traditional coil electrical water heater
We have had a Carrier central heat pump for almost 2 years now. It has backup electric heat. The only time the backup has come on was on a day where it was minus 9 Fahrenheit actual temperature with 40 mile an hour winds. This is a 2 stage compressor with a variable speed central unit. So far, we really like it.
I have been working for a refrigeration wholesaler for 13 years now all of the companies in this video are suppliers or customers with us. We sell now for one year Midea heatpumps at 5/6C its still a cop of 4. Love these videos. Here in Holland almost every one wants a heatpump.
dad joke intro to the max. Nice work.
We kicked it up to 11 for this one.
Hotspot energy makes a grid assisted solar mini split heatpump. It uses about 1200 W of PV panels with no batteries or external inverter or anything else.
The panels are plugged directly into the mini split. You can also plug 240 V AC from the grid into it and as the wattage from the panels goes down from clouds, etc., the wattage from the AC will ramp up.
They also make a 48Vdc battery based mini split that is used for those that already have a 48V solar PV system.
When you don’t need continuos full rating output, inverter technology reduces liquid flow allowing more heat exchanger surface and so dramatically boosting the efficiency.
The defrost cycle doesn't need an electric heater. Normally they would put the refrigeration circuit in reverse for a short amount of time to heat the outside unit
I live in central Florida and I have a relatively new AC/Heat Pump with an emergency heater coil in the air-handler. While it works better than the unit I replaced, I still have to use space heaters in the bedrooms in the winter. CENTRAL FLORIDA!!
Heat pump are more and more popular here in Poland :) Mostly because government give discounts for some group of people. Additionally most of us are connecting it with PV and maybe we still don't store this PV energy from summer in some battery but we can get that energy from grid in winter. But still most houses need renovation to insulate them, replace heaters for bigger or even put floor heating for better efficiency as many houses need heating water with 50-60C with -5C outside. Combo of HP and PV cost about 90-100k zl => 20-23k $ (of course it depends on how much energy you need for heating) which for most people is too expensive as that is theris 3years net income. That is why many people is still replacing coal furnance with gas boiler. Cheers :)
We installed mini-split type heat pumps some several years back by hiring a technician and doing the non-licensed technical work ourselves with the installation. License or not the hand made connections suffered a 50% failure rate wherein refrigerant vented to the atmosphere and caused the loss of function(2 of 4 units suffered this problem - one with a Halifax tecnician, one with a Moncton one).
Local contractors indicate a similar failure rate.
Our next units will be the DIY type with pre-charged refrigerant lines (as is a common thing with built-in boat refrigerators). There is really no excuse for doing this the hard way, when the wholesale pricing on mini-splits are at 15 to 20% of the typical contract value. Those high contractor charges have to compensate for the high initial failure rate and subsequent callbacks to correct those failures.
I live in Central New York and have a geothermal water to air heat pump. It works very good in the winter and even better in the summer. I does run all the time when it's cold outside because it is easier for it to maintain the temperature inside that way. Our house originally had oil and I'm glad it's gone. Planning on getting solar and a local storage battery to maintain the power to run it if we lose power from the grid. Our system was installed in 2021. Unless the tax credits were changed, they started at 30% of the install cost and go down each year by 2%. For 2021 taxes we were able to get a credit for 26% of the install costs. Plus we received a rebate from New York state for about $6000 that came off the top of the install price. Still cost a good amount, but the amount we save each year from oil is enough to recoup the costs in about 5 to 8 years.
Do people really fall for the spam messages that say DM me for money? I find it hard to believe.
One big thing you forgot: The noise from the fan and pump. If you live in the suburbs where houses are far apart, that might be acceptable, but not in crowded urban environments.
Here in norway almost all houses have a air to air heatpump and a wood stove.
we get -1 to -20c and have no problem with cold house. But there is a common thing that they use more power in colder temps so we use more wood then
In NZ we’ve been installing /repairing these (primarily for heating) for over 30 years.. no problem at all. They claim to work down to -15 deg C , although with reduced performance. Its interesting to note the worst portion can be 0-8deg , fog chills to form ice on the subzero outdoor unit coils; But below zero humidity falls out of the atmosphere, therefore less de-icing cycles are required below zero.
If the inverter has good technology less de-ice cycles are required
As a Canadian builder, I can say that air source heat pumps are perfect here for up to 9 months per year, if you get the best air source heat pump. In the winter backup heating is necessary. Ground source and water sourced heat pumps are brilliant though.
I heat with firewood though, it reduces the fuel load around my home for the next time a forest fire comes near. Burning firewood from standing dead, dry wood is the best fuel source where I live. It will burn one way or another, I prefer that slow burn warmth throughout the winter to summer wildfires
I live in North Carolina, so pretty temperate climate. I have both heat pumps and natural gas for heating depending on the floor in my home. The Gas always feels warmer despite it being objectively the same temp. I think it has to do with the output temp of the air from the register and the run time.
We have a geothermal heat pump with 2 x70 m deep Wells to heat about 150 M2 of office space and it's barely noticeable on our electricity bill. But the installation cost was also about 40.000$ before incentives.
The Well drilling alone was 17.000$ - not incentivised, - but for the heatpump and energy buffer we got a 50% subvention form the government
Two things people could benefit from knowing:
1 - There are both central heatpumps and mural heatpumps. Mural heatpumps do not need a furnace nor central ducting. They are also VERY efficient.
2 - The models of today make WAY less noise than what people are used to hearing from their neighbour's 10+ year old heatpump
Also, for those Canadians out there, the Feds offer a grant program that you can get up to 5000$ tax-free for a CCHP
House runs a furnace/heat pump, when it gets too cold I usually just flip the heat pump off else we’re freezing for a good 30mins while the system blows cold air out the vents before it decides to flip the furnace on and do the heating.
Unless you can do a geothermal or something other than air sourced heat pump, its just not worth it unless your never going to get below 40F. We’ve also started running into the issue of the opposite. The heat pump is overheating during the summer causing it to stop working entirely and have to be reset.
These are more than likely due to #1 air sourced and #2 could be an older system, I have no record of when it got installed as we’ve only lived here for 3 years, but it can’t be older than 25 years at max.
We also got a portable heat pump (again air sourced) it’ll kick on for about 30seconds, then shut down for a while when temps drop below 40F. So again we’re forced to shut it off and rely on radiators.
Before living here I’d only heard good things about their efficiency.
It can’t be said enough tho. The TYPE of heat pump matters. Its not about one being better than the other, some types just don’t work for certain circumstances and cannot be relied upon.
If this is mentioned in the video I’m about half way in and commenting for some reason is pausing the video…
Back in February, we had the coldest days of the year. The coldest day of the year, -1 to 22 degrees F, I used 90KW of power. My average with heat on is 30KW to 40KW. My base load without the use of heat is 15KW. Using a heat pump for heat is way more expensive then using natural gas in my area. Unfortunately I live in an apartment and don’t have the luxury of investing into solar or switching to natural gas.
I looked at heat pumps here in the uk, but every time i tried, some one just wanted to rip me off, as you said the price should be around 8 or 9k, and atm there is a 5k gov grant to get that down to cost the same as a boiler, but even when I rang up big company's like EDF, they all want 12k after taking the govs 5k off, some even wanted £700 just to come out and see if my house was suitable...
Atm i Feel like they are still in cash grab mode, trying to set a high price and get people sued to paying it, or extracting as much cash as they can from early adopters as a new revenue stream.
We have a senville, they advertise with an arctic heat pump to -30 C and we've tested that this winter and it seems to work ok.
I just moved into an apartment building with a geothermal heatpump system. Our heatpumps are installed inside our storage in the apartments and connected to a central system(Not 100% how it works). I can never hear it run and my apartment is 20°C(68°F) just the way I like it. So far happy and the cost is fixed at €89 a month. A bit high in price but I am happy I no longer have any natural gas in my home. Also shielded a bit from the energy crisis. The apartments are also very well insulated(Triple glazed windows with a mechanical ventilation system). It also cools in summer. I will see how well that works in Summer when we have heatwaves in the Netherlands.
We own two properties in Canada and both are heated by hybrid heat pump systems (with gas auxiliary heat). We keep our vacation property heated to 10 degrees C and this works without auxiliary heat down to -30 C. In the city, we keep our house at 20 degrees C and our Lennox heat pump works without auxiliary heat down to -15 C. The only issue we have is that heat pumps seem to be able to maintain a constant temperature, but are not good at making up a temperature deficit. As a result, we no longer reduce our thermostat at night. If we reduce our thermostat down to 16 C at night, we need auxiliary gas heat to bring the temperature back up in the morning.
If heat pumps would not be able to go below 5°C, how would a freezer work going down to 18°C or 27°C. Because a freezer uses a heat pump. Norway, a rather cold country, has 60% of residential housing heated by heat pumps.
I have both heat bump (very new, installed less than 5 years) and AC+furnace system, the fact is that heat bump is 100% a trash during the winter. it not only sky rock the electric bill, but also never be able to keep 68F. So eventually, I will have to use furnace, put it as 3F higher than the upper floor temperature, this is almost avoid heat bump to work at all during the winter. BTW, if you ever consider the geothermal, i would consider the labor cost during the maintenance, fix anything underground, you will have to fix your damaged lawn, then the pipes buried underground. that's said, it is funny to see that people have this kind of illusion that heat bump can replace a furnace system.
Built a new house three years ago. Installed a geothermal HVAC system. The house is always comfortable. The system heats water as well as heating and cooling the house. We have never run out of hot water. There is a natural gas backup in case the geothermal system can't keep up. So far we have used ZERO natural gas. Can't compare cost to my former house because the two houses are substantially different. But costs are less than the old, smaller house.
Bought a first generation split system heat pump hot water system. I expect a reverse cycle AC to last at least 10 to 15 years so was most surprised when the heat pump gave up after a little over THREE YEARS! Also surprised to find the unit was discontinued and no longer repairable. Install a Rheem? Well no .. at least not their first gen. Jim Bell (Australia)
No mention of seer ratings and if or how that affects their ability to operate in cold climates or how important the seer ratings are… I have a heat pump but utilize a gas furnace for backup when the temp drops! Love the videos and hope to someday build a house similar to what your building keep up the good work!!! Thanks Matt
Damn, sounds like we're still a way off from full coverage in Saskatchewan Canada. Our usual lows in winter are in the -15c to -25c range, but we always get at least a week or two of -30c to -40c
I work in the hvac trade ! And it’s people who don’t have heat pumps that have negative things to say ! It’s like those people who don’t have jobs are the first to tell you to quite your job
I live in Finland, Have been using air to air heatpump now 20 years. Our winter is very hard, can be constantly below freezing for 4 monhts. And can be -30 C more than 2 weeks in a row. Heatpump is my main heating and it works nicely. If I have time I'll warm my fireplace some times especially in very cold days. So if you live in a place that you have some freezing weather heat pump will work great!
never understood why "cold weather" was a problem, when the most popular heating being installed in norway is heat pumps!
OK, 1st, air conditioners have heating mode, so they work exactly the same today. They didn't have this function 20 years ago, but by today it is common. Difference is in the size - typical AC is only meant to cool and heat one room only.
Second, math - if I save $300 a year, and the cost difference is $6000, then it is probably not worth it at all. As it is not so commonplace, installation will take more, maintenance will take more, and you will need to replace the system at some point as it is too old and can't be maintained any more. I would say that is well under 20 years. I would also challenge the cost - in Poland you might get the system for 8000 euros, but not in Western Europe, or the US. Cost would be easily double if you get a quote in Germany for the same.
So, I would say it looks confy to have air conditioners heating and cooling your house - but it is only economical if you actually need AC in every room as you have long, hot summers, and cold winters.
In the extreme cold heat pumps cost more to run than a natural gas furnace. I have a duel system, and essentially when getting below around 10 F then it is more cost efficient to run a gas furnace. It really doesn't matter what tech has been used because at the end of the system is the need to run the compressor harder and the defrost cycles just to keep the heat flowing. In the coldest months running a heat pump can cost around $200 a month for a 2300 square foot home for the heat pump electricity alone. The same cost for a gas furnace is around $150. The other problem is that as the outdoor air gets colder the capacity drops on a heat pump which is backwards from the desired effect. Also heat pumps typically consume more power than can be afforded by a backup battery which is important in cold climates and power outages. I also can't rely on solar during the winter as the panels get covered in December and are non functional to around March usually. I feel I'm above average prepared with solar+battery+heat pump.
What is the efficiency of the heat pump when it gets cold - cold at the advertised limit. Does the definition of "working" include 99% of its energy use going to keeping the heaters on the outdoor unit to keep it from freezing up considered "working" ?
I recently (last year) replaced the furnace in my house. I considered a heat pump instead of non-reversible AC. The problem was it cost twice as much and was made of unobtainium. As in, just plain not available for 18 months or more. And I would still need a backup heat source. It just wasn't economically possible, however desirable it might be.
I installed a Mitsubishi Mini Split in 2015, I selected a model wirg a SEER of 21.5 that can heat as well as cool. It's to mall for the whole house but can heat the first floor of my house down to the low 20's. The unit can go much lower my limitation is the size of my ubit.
It's been a mild winter here on the coast of NW and I've on;y had to use my steam system in the mornings on very cold daysto bring the house up to temperature after my four degree night setback, otherwise the Mini keeps me at 70J with no problem and does it for a lot less rhan the gas boiler.
Love my new Carrier 25VNA8 heat pump/ AC unit, living in Edmonton Albert Canada and it's been working just fine in temp's below -15 C
The past four winters I have heated my all-electric superinsulated home in Montana using a single Fujitsu heat pump. It's our sole source of heating (outside of passive solar) and has heated the house even in -26*F weather. Yes, the output is reduced and there is little to no efficiency benefits at that low temp, but it's very efficient otherwise and has been very reliable. Payback on the unit was less than 2 years.
I've had one winter with photo-voltaic/battery setup, heat-pump, and no under-floor or ceiling insulation.
I just had the insulation installed so, in another twelve months, I'll have some good data to work with.
I don't get snow within 150 miles south of here.
I live in Northern Canada and have a heat pump (TOSOT TW36HQ2A3D). At -25C it works perfectly. At -30C it puts out heat, but not a huge amount. My house is 60 years old and inefficient, so I use my gas boiler quite a lot. If I built a new efficient house I would just have a heat pump but also some electric heat for the very cold days. Even here in Edmonton, there are only a handful of days per year where the air temperature is below -30C.
my 4-5 ton mrcool is working well in western ny. Need to get used the fan and compressor noise which is a bit louder than my 96% 70k propane furnace. Running in 4 ton mode. PLaced a 4 ton coil on top of my furnace. My propane increased in price 40% this year so it will be good to be using less. My understanding is that the r410 working fluid boils at -50F so there is quite a bit of heat to be extracted above that. We have never been under -20F in 28 years here.
I have 2 heat pumps. They cut my utility bill in half when installed,,,, 10 years ago. The cost for the 2 units was about 4800. They paid for themselves in about 18 months. Still going strong
Here in western Canada it can and does sometimes drop to -40C and below. I'd only consider a heat pump if it can still work during those very extreme cold days in January and early February.
1:30 The graphic looks off to me. Shouldn't the compressor & expansion valve be on different sides of the wall? My understanding is that's the main mechanism of moving the (heat) energy, taking it in via expansion & releasing it via compression
I replaced the both the furnace and AC in a condo in Canada last summer. I wanted and the HVAC contractor wanted and tried to find a heat pump that worked below 10 degrees C but none existed or the HVAC contractor couldn't find one. It would have been a big cost advantage as I could forget the cost of the furnace. The condo has alternative heat sources from shared areas beside and below the condo so the -10 heat pump probably would have worked but because it was a rental and because no furnace would have really hit resale value I had no choice but to go with the regular Furnace + AC. Just because you might get away with a HVAC system only rated to -10 most years doesn't mean you should. I'm pretty sure a condo with an hvac system only rated for -10 degrees C (in an area that routinely gets -30 C) would fail 90% of home inspections if you tried to sell it.
I want to see and hear about -50c in nwt capitol of yellowknife or -40c for mpre southern nwt communities. -25c is literally fall season for us here.
As someone with a home using a pellet stove and who has been watching heat pumps for the last few years, it's wild to see how the federal credits and incentives go straight into the manufactures and contractors pockets. Our quote last year (December 2022) before a lot of these rebates came in was about 40-50% lower then they are now and the rebates effectively bring it back to the same price it was before.
Everyone I talk to says that the manufactures and contractors are aware of the rebates and are interested in getting their share. Pretty sad and frustrating to say the least.
Efficiency numbers aside, we need to talk about the elephant in the room - the cost of electricity. I live in the Northeast in a 1970's split level home with a gas forced hot air furnace, gas water heater, gas range and a gas dryer. I keep my house at 72F in the winter around the clock, and yet my electric bill is higher, or at best equal, to my gas bill in the winter. So yes, while the new heat pumps are super-duper energy efficient, they are still more expensive to run than a gas furnace, and they cost a lot more as well.
I don't know where you guys live but I live in California or it doesn't get radically cold unless you're in the mountain. I have used wood for years to heat my house because it's always been the best way to keep it warm. I recently got a new heat pump I decided to use it this year as my only heat source and I feel I made a mistake. To keep my house at 65ﾟ cost me almost $400 for the month where when I use wood it's a $150 a month. I do not see how this is a better way of heating although this is much better than the heat pump that came with the house when I bought it that 1 cost me $200 a month back in the eighties and it only kept the house at 55ﾟ When it was 30 something degrees outside during the night during the day it got up into the high fortieslow fifties. $200 in the eighties is a lot more than $400 now but I still think $400 a month is expensive and I was only keeping it at 65ﾟ. I now have it set at 60 and it's gone down to $250 a month. Still a $100 more than wood and I'm not warm.
It is hard to extract heat from a pound of outside air when there is only a small amount of heat in the air at the lower temperature. Look at the phychometrics based the temperature and wet bulb temperature to determine total and sensible heat loads. Low temperatures don't yield alot of BTUs or calories when needed.
Ground source heat pumps are a differnet subject as long as the loops are buried at the proper depth for the location. At the proper depth the heat pump can extract (winter) or reject (summer) decent heat load.
I would not hesitate to install a ground source heat pump in a new build (if the land needed is available).
I would only use an air source heat pump where it does not get too cold outside.
It is hard to beat physics.
I just had a Daikin fit Heat pump installed on Monday. I live in FL. I wont have to worry so much about the cold. my 16 year old system couldn't keep up anymore.
Im in the process of acquiring bids for a new heat pump heating system for my house. So this video is very timely for me. Thank you very much. You're a good man.
Thank you. Very informative.
My 1960s gas-fired boiler will need replacing in the next decade or two, and using a heat pump to keep the hydronic baseboard heating going is one of our goals. Perhaps by then we'll have a heat pump that can handle the deep freeze temps of a Montana winter.
We had two (zoned) heat pumps in Las Vegas providing both heat and A/C. High electric bills during both summer and winter. Ugh!
So, during the second summer, I surrounded both condensers with a home-built swamp cooler, reducing my electric bill by 40%. Very dry in Vegas, like 5%-15% relative humidity. I'd planned to build a solar hot water system and do the same during the winter, before I realized it would be far simpler to simply pump the heated water through radiators in the house. About a 30% savings there using only one radiator in the living room where everyone gathered throughout the day. We allowed the bedrooms to stay much cooler during the winter. If I'd had three times the solar hot water heater surface area and three radiators inside instead of just one, the savings would have been far higher. Used it for two more years before moving on.
The greatest problem there, however, was the severe lack of proper home insulation. Bad sealing, no IR barrier, and inadequate insulation for those blazing summer days. Very poor solar design, too, with almost no overhangs, and certainly not at the right height to effectively shade southern-facing windows from the sun!
I sold the house when I moved.
Still greatly enjoying your many insights, Matt! The accumulation of knowledge and systems have lead to a preliminary design that's relatively inexpensive to build, darn near bulletproof, and entirely off-grid with both solar photovoltaic and solar hot water. With enough insulation, passive solar design considerations and a thermal barrier fresh air exchange system, we'll need far less A/C tonnage than average builds.