My last game was a 4 player that turned into BG and Fremen vs Guild and Atreides. My BG Ally played worthless cards to ship troops. We discussed weather it should go to the Guild or the bank and settled on the bank. He did it enough times and the Guild was so starved for money that I figured we had cheated. Great to have this video clarify we did not.
Was playing Saturday night, dropped my karama so the emperor would get the spice from the treachery bidding. Bought the next card up... And it was another karama, which i used to prevent Harkonnen from getting a second treachery. Stopped the harkonnen emperor alliance right in its tracks and swept up at the end of the turn. Just found your channel after playing my 4th game. Love the channel keep it up!
Superbe séries! 5:36 when you say that you can pay for anyone’s shipment of forces, does that include your adversaries (I.e. people you are not in an alliance with)? Been really enjoying these videos and they are really useful for playing.
Thank you for the video! In a recent advanced rules game I used a BG worthless card as a Karama card to cancel one of Fremen's powers: namely the Fedaykin, reducing them back to regular units. I have a few questions regarding this use of Karama. 1.: Do you think this is a faction advantage that could/should be cancelled by a Karama card? 2: if so, when should you paly the Karama? Before a battle or even after the shipment phase ends and when the battle phase starts? Or perhaps even after the dials are revealed? 3: Would it work for an entire round or only 1 battle?
Thanks Jack, really useful video (the whole series is, to be fair). Couple of questions to clarify: 1) The BG ability to use worthless cards as Karama cards is not once per game right? 2) can this BG ability be cancelled by a Karama? 3) The other factions, their special Karama abilities are all once-per-game, right? If not, which factions and what ability please? 4) You clarified that if someone's hand is full, they cannot play the Karama card to gain a card for free. But if they play the Karama for a different reason in the bidding phase, eg cancelling Atreides, or doing Harkonnen hand swap, thus now they are not at their hand limit... so now they can bid in cards? So its not fixed at the start of the auction if someone if completely out of the auction?
@@jackredathewarpthanks for clarifying! And I just read the Harkonnen ability, it's at end of Bidding phase, so the example doesn't work for them. I downloaded your Karama cards from BGG, they are excellent thanks. Could you possibly add (Once per game) next to under the Karama Power heading please, for 9 factions other than the BG? There is defo space on the cards, other than Fremen and Ixians. Regards, Salman
So what happens when you use the "Bid more spice than you have (without revealing this card)" and you win the bid? Do you have to use the second part (i.e. purchase it without paying spice)? Does that mean the clarification of "(cannot be used if your hand is full)" applies to all the bullet point and not only the purchasing part? PS: I just discovered your channel while researching which of the 3 expansions to buy and I love it, thank you for all the design insider information! PS2: (I bought all of them)
If you bid more spice than you have and win, you wouldn't have any other option than to use the card (unless an ally was helping to pay for the card). You can play a karama with a full hand, but not to buy a card- because you can only play it when it's your turn to bid, and you can't bid with a full hand.
Traitors are an "At Start" advantage, and they are immune to karama. Thus, you can't cancel this particular ability, and that's because it would be pretty clunky to have them reveal a traitor and then get the effect canceled.
Also what is the mechanical reason you can't use a karama card to buy another card when your hand is full. In my head paying the karama is just swapping your hand for the card thats up for bid and when your hand is full you are giving up a powerful card for something else and that karama is gone. Am i missing out on some interaction that can exploit the mechanics or is that just the ruling because is see no difference between playing it before and after the hand is full.
You can’t bid with a full hand, and using karama to buy a card can only happen if you can bid. Mechanically? It has to do with the balance of cards available per player.
1. When choam and RICHESE can play super karama power. Manual says "Any time" but then all other fractions in faq have specific phase for super karama power. 2. Only thing during battle that need karama stop declaration before dialing is "Fremen payment" ? All other powers - like Emperor Sardaukar, Cyborgs or Kwisatz Haderach doesn`t have such note in expansion 1 karama explanation at end on manual. 3. Expansion 1 manuals says for TLEILAXU Karama stop: Revival - Limited to 3 force revival, full price for all revivals, no payment for free revival, revival payments go to Spice Bank, and may not revive leaders early Only one thing can be from that list stopped or all for full revival phase? Also when I try to revive leader for player 1 and this is stopped can I still offer reviving another leader for player2 or skill is blocked for whole phase? 4. Expansion 1 says: For Kwisatz Haderach - Does not add +2 or protect from being a traitor. Whay we use word OR? We block whole KH skill or only +2 OR traitor protection? If answer is WHOLE then can I use KH in next battle in different teritory? 5. Can I stop alliance power by karama? If yes then I guess Harkonnen alliance power needs to be stopped before dialing ?
1- Any time. 2- Any effect that involves Battle Plans must be played before plans are finalized and revealed. 3- Only one thing. 4- Nuance of English language, but both effects are stopped. 5- Alliance advantages can be stopped, but not At Start advantages. Harkonnen Alliance advantage cannot be stopped by Karama.
@@jackredathewarp related to battle plans - where is end of karama blockade (have to play before revelaing battle plans) ? Confused because not sure if i need to block before reaveling or can do it after: paying for force to bank vs choam stealing hero as harkonnen after win audit fliping advisors to fighter is at the end of combat both sides were anihilated and some bene advisors left alone in stronghold
@@jackredathewarp About harkonnen ally advantage faq 2020 says: "Harkonnen: You may not prevent the Harkonnen from revealing a traitor for their own battles, nor from having an 8 card hand. You may prevent them from revealing a traitor in their ally’s battles and from gaining an extra card during bidding. In the Advanced Game, you may prevent the advanced Harkonnen advantage allowing them to capture a leader after any one battle. You may not prevent them from using a captured leader." Why then you say that it cant be stopped? FAQ mistake?
Making the Karama stop Atreides card knowledge power active for the full turn (all cards for the bid) seems very oppressive to me. Definitely spoils a lot of Atreides' game plan, and I'm not sure current relative power rankings (with Atreides being in the weaker 3 of the base game imho) warrant such a rule. I think having the Karama be a single instance also in this case is better for the overall game balance, although weakens the Karama card slightly (it is still super strong though).
Yes but you also have to consider that for all but BG there is either 2-3 Karama cards per game in total. If BG then 6-7 Karama cards per game. Even if a player plays Karama against specifically Atreides twice, that’s still 8 rounds of dune with game plan reveals and whatnot. I like it how it is personally :)
@@jackredathewarp is it only battle advantages that are stopped “per instance” and like other advantages are per phase? For example, if Spacing Guild uses their special to stop shipment from a faction does that mean they can’t ship the whole phase or just the one place they were trying to ship first? Sorry, if that doesn’t make sense
@@samuelbowling4735 This is two different applications of karama; canceling an advantage is per instance. Guild once per game is not canceling an advantage but rather a unique advantage of its own. If Guild uses this effect, then you don’t ship at all that turn.
@@jackredathewarp okay another question: if the BG were using a worthless to bid higher than spice they have, and that worthless card gets Karamad as it is revealed to pay for the card, how would the auction be adjudicated?
@@darkportents9835 It’s a pickle for sure. Not something I can give an official answer for. I address it in Dune Abomination, but since that isn’t available yet or even a practical solution, I can only suggest: do your best to back up the bidding to the last possible viable reentry point.
I kind of dislike the bidding option because people who don't have a Karama could pretend that they do and if they lose the auction there's no verification.
You could only pretend up to the amount you actually have. You strictly cannot normally bid more spice than you have. That said, I don’t really like it because I find it clunky to not have to play a card for an effect. Especially a card that has several other effects that can only trigger upon being played.
But the amount you have is hidden, is it not? So not provable. Your objection is another point. The whole thing is problematic, and probably too powerful.
@@rhoheta5243 Karama’s effect doesn’t make a player more or less likely to cheat. Players with no scruples don’t need an excuse to cheat. It’s absurd to restrain design because of it. That said, I don’t like the effect but it’s only because not playing a card that otherwise has effects that need to be played makes little sense to me.
I have a question regarding the KH for Atredies. Do I have to preemptively stop it or can I wait to see their revealed battle plan and then take away the KH to reduce their total or even make their leader vulnerable to being claimed as a traitor?
The rules are certainly not crystal clear, but we are going with the WBC take and saying Prevent it, played when Battle Plans are forming. Our hope is to have a comprehensive chart put out by GF9. Then maybe if there’s a “2nd” edition, we give Karama a facelift altogether.
Karama-ing the Atreides in bidding phase... your house rule seems too powerful... so I'd probably house rule that Atreides can only see half of the cards eg Alternate cards.
My last game was a 4 player that turned into BG and Fremen vs Guild and Atreides. My BG Ally played worthless cards to ship troops. We discussed weather it should go to the Guild or the bank and settled on the bank. He did it enough times and the Guild was so starved for money that I figured we had cheated. Great to have this video clarify we did not.
Much apreciated video and really useful!
Was playing Saturday night, dropped my karama so the emperor would get the spice from the treachery bidding. Bought the next card up... And it was another karama, which i used to prevent Harkonnen from getting a second treachery. Stopped the harkonnen emperor alliance right in its tracks and swept up at the end of the turn.
Just found your channel after playing my 4th game. Love the channel keep it up!
Superbe séries! 5:36 when you say that you can pay for anyone’s shipment of forces, does that include your adversaries (I.e. people you are not in an alliance with)?
Been really enjoying these videos and they are really useful for playing.
Any shipment!
Thank you for the video!
In a recent advanced rules game I used a BG worthless card as a Karama card to cancel one of Fremen's powers: namely the Fedaykin, reducing them back to regular units. I have a few questions regarding this use of Karama.
1.: Do you think this is a faction advantage that could/should be cancelled by a Karama card?
2: if so, when should you paly the Karama? Before a battle or even after the shipment phase ends and when the battle phase starts? Or perhaps even after the dials are revealed?
3: Would it work for an entire round or only 1 battle?
1- It can and often should, if enough are present.
2- Play while forming battle plans. Otherwise it wreaks havoc on dialing.
3- One battle.
Thank you. Can any player play it at any time? Let's say to use it in a battle between the other two players?
Chuckled at your comment on no perfect wording for Dune rules. So true, Dune is 5X compared to other games.
Thanks Jack, really useful video (the whole series is, to be fair).
Couple of questions to clarify:
1) The BG ability to use worthless cards as Karama cards is not once per game right?
2) can this BG ability be cancelled by a Karama?
3) The other factions, their special Karama abilities are all once-per-game, right? If not, which factions and what ability please?
4) You clarified that if someone's hand is full, they cannot play the Karama card to gain a card for free. But if they play the Karama for a different reason in the bidding phase, eg cancelling Atreides, or doing Harkonnen hand swap, thus now they are not at their hand limit... so now they can bid in cards? So its not fixed at the start of the auction if someone if completely out of the auction?
1) no limit. 2) yes. 3) all are once per game. 4). It is not fixed. The Atreides example works. Hark is end of bidding so would not.
@@jackredathewarpthanks for clarifying! And I just read the Harkonnen ability, it's at end of Bidding phase, so the example doesn't work for them.
I downloaded your Karama cards from BGG, they are excellent thanks.
Could you possibly add (Once per game) next to under the Karama Power heading please, for 9 factions other than the BG? There is defo space on the cards, other than Fremen and Ixians.
Regards, Salman
So what happens when you use the "Bid more spice than you have (without revealing this card)" and you win the bid? Do you have to use the second part (i.e. purchase it without paying spice)? Does that mean the clarification of "(cannot be used if your hand is full)" applies to all the bullet point and not only the purchasing part?
PS: I just discovered your channel while researching which of the 3 expansions to buy and I love it, thank you for all the design insider information!
PS2: (I bought all of them)
If you bid more spice than you have and win, you wouldn't have any other option than to use the card (unless an ally was helping to pay for the card). You can play a karama with a full hand, but not to buy a card- because you can only play it when it's your turn to bid, and you can't bid with a full hand.
Thanks for answering! @@jackredathewarp
@jackredathewarp Thank you for the video! Can I use a Karama to let my ally buy a card without paying spice?
Sadly no. When benefitting others, only canceling an advantage or paying for a shipment.
With the new Shrine in the 3rd expansion do the BG worthless karamas get affected by karams becoming truth trances?
BG can definitely go hog wild with worthless cards as TT if they control the shrine.
Can you cancel alliance ability of Hark (shared Traitors) after one of them was revealed in a battle with Hark's ally?
Traitors are an "At Start" advantage, and they are immune to karama. Thus, you can't cancel this particular ability, and that's because it would be pretty clunky to have them reveal a traitor and then get the effect canceled.
Also what is the mechanical reason you can't use a karama card to buy another card when your hand is full.
In my head paying the karama is just swapping your hand for the card thats up for bid and when your hand is full you are giving up a powerful card for something else and that karama is gone.
Am i missing out on some interaction that can exploit the mechanics or is that just the ruling because is see no difference between playing it before and after the hand is full.
You can’t bid with a full hand, and using karama to buy a card can only happen if you can bid. Mechanically? It has to do with the balance of cards available per player.
Can you use a karama to stop the tleilaxu from revealing a face dancer?
No. Traitor card selection for the purpose of establishing a supply of Face Dancers is an At Start advantage, which is immune to Karama.
@@jackredathewarp thanks!
1. When choam and RICHESE can play super karama power. Manual says "Any time" but then all other fractions in faq have specific phase for super karama power.
2. Only thing during battle that need karama stop declaration before dialing is "Fremen payment" ? All other powers - like Emperor Sardaukar, Cyborgs or Kwisatz Haderach doesn`t have such note in expansion 1 karama explanation at end on manual.
3. Expansion 1 manuals says for TLEILAXU Karama stop:
Revival - Limited to 3 force revival, full price for all revivals, no payment for free revival, revival payments go to Spice Bank, and may not revive leaders early
Only one thing can be from that list stopped or all for full revival phase? Also when I try to revive leader for player 1 and this is stopped can I still offer reviving another leader for player2 or skill is blocked for whole phase?
4. Expansion 1 says: For Kwisatz Haderach - Does not add +2 or protect from being a traitor.
Whay we use word OR? We block whole KH skill or only +2 OR traitor protection? If answer is WHOLE then can I use KH in next battle in different teritory?
5. Can I stop alliance power by karama? If yes then I guess Harkonnen alliance power needs to be stopped before dialing ?
1- Any time.
2- Any effect that involves Battle Plans must be played before plans are finalized and revealed.
3- Only one thing.
4- Nuance of English language, but both effects are stopped.
5- Alliance advantages can be stopped, but not At Start advantages. Harkonnen Alliance advantage cannot be stopped by Karama.
@@jackredathewarp related to battle plans - where is end of karama blockade (have to play before revelaing battle plans) ?
Confused because not sure if i need to block before reaveling or can do it after:
paying for force to bank vs choam
stealing hero as harkonnen after win
audit
fliping advisors to fighter is at the end of combat both sides were anihilated and some bene advisors left alone in stronghold
@@jackredathewarp About harkonnen ally advantage faq 2020 says:
"Harkonnen: You may not prevent the Harkonnen from revealing a traitor for their own battles, nor from having an 8 card hand. You may prevent them from revealing a traitor in their ally’s battles and from gaining an extra card during bidding. In the Advanced Game, you may prevent the advanced Harkonnen advantage allowing them to capture a leader after any one battle. You may not prevent them from using a captured leader."
Why then you say that it cant be stopped? FAQ mistake?
@@lukewookiee mistake.
@@lukewookiee That was an oversight that has lead to a horror show of "wait, when do we do this?". It will be changed.
Making the Karama stop Atreides card knowledge power active for the full turn (all cards for the bid) seems very oppressive to me. Definitely spoils a lot of Atreides' game plan, and I'm not sure current relative power rankings (with Atreides being in the weaker 3 of the base game imho) warrant such a rule. I think having the Karama be a single instance also in this case is better for the overall game balance, although weakens the Karama card slightly (it is still super strong though).
Yes but you also have to consider that for all but BG there is either 2-3 Karama cards per game in total. If BG then 6-7 Karama cards per game. Even if a player plays Karama against specifically Atreides twice, that’s still 8 rounds of dune with game plan reveals and whatnot. I like it how it is personally :)
Wait, so Karama cards used to stop battle advantages only work per battle not per phase?
Per battle
@@jackredathewarp is it only battle advantages that are stopped “per instance” and like other advantages are per phase? For example, if Spacing Guild uses their special to stop shipment from a faction does that mean they can’t ship the whole phase or just the one place they were trying to ship first?
Sorry, if that doesn’t make sense
@@samuelbowling4735 This is two different applications of karama; canceling an advantage is per instance. Guild once per game is not canceling an advantage but rather a unique advantage of its own. If Guild uses this effect, then you don’t ship at all that turn.
If Karama stops BG from using worthless card as Karama do BG still discard the worthless card?
Should still be discarded.
@@jackredathewarp okay another question: if the BG were using a worthless to bid higher than spice they have, and that worthless card gets Karamad as it is revealed to pay for the card, how would the auction be adjudicated?
@@darkportents9835 It’s a pickle for sure. Not something I can give an official answer for. I address it in Dune Abomination, but since that isn’t available yet or even a practical solution, I can only suggest: do your best to back up the bidding to the last possible viable reentry point.
I kind of dislike the bidding option because people who don't have a Karama could pretend that they do and if they lose the auction there's no verification.
You could only pretend up to the amount you actually have. You strictly cannot normally bid more spice than you have. That said, I don’t really like it because I find it clunky to not have to play a card for an effect. Especially a card that has several other effects that can only trigger upon being played.
But the amount you have is hidden, is it not? So not provable.
Your objection is another point.
The whole thing is problematic, and probably too powerful.
@@rhoheta5243 if you are suggesting that people can cheat, I don’t know what to say to that.
I do. Good game design doesn't set up situations where it's too easy to cheat.
@@rhoheta5243 Karama’s effect doesn’t make a player more or less likely to cheat. Players with no scruples don’t need an excuse to cheat. It’s absurd to restrain design because of it. That said, I don’t like the effect but it’s only because not playing a card that otherwise has effects that need to be played makes little sense to me.
I have a question regarding the KH for Atredies. Do I have to preemptively stop it or can I wait to see their revealed battle plan and then take away the KH to reduce their total or even make their leader vulnerable to being claimed as a traitor?
The rules are certainly not crystal clear, but we are going with the WBC take and saying Prevent it, played when Battle Plans are forming. Our hope is to have a comprehensive chart put out by GF9. Then maybe if there’s a “2nd” edition, we give Karama a facelift altogether.
@@jackredathewarp thank you.
Karama-ing the Atreides in bidding phase... your house rule seems too powerful... so I'd probably house rule that Atreides can only see half of the cards eg Alternate cards.