Homophobia in Gotham: A Video Essay
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- A full breakdown of Gotham's mistreatment of their LGBTQ characters.
Shoutout to my friend Julia who helped me edit the audio in this monster of a video!
You can find her here: / @catzoomies8323
NOTE: While I do use the word queer as an umbrella term throughout this video as a matter of convenience (one can only repeat LGBTQ so many times), I should mention that not everyone who is a part of the LGBTQ+ community is comfortable with that identifying with that term, and I apologize to anyone who may be upset by my use of the word in this context.
The clips used in this video all belong to FOX Entertainment. I use them for commentary purposes only, which constitutes as Fair Use.
Music in this video:
• Kevin MacLeod ~ Fluffi...
• Epic I Cinematic I Dar...
• Grieg - In the Hall of...
• Kevin MacLeod ~ Hidden...
TO ANY MULTLINGUAL VIEWERS: If I don't have subtitles in your other language(s) and you would be interested in translating this video for me add as subtitles, please comment or message me on one of my socials listed in the description, thanks!
Why was almost the entire backing of your claim the show is homophobic how the non straight passing characters are all the villains in a show about the villains. They are 80 percent of the reason you watch
@@billybillybobinny8954 because the non-straight characters solely being villains continues the homophobic idea that gay people are inherently morally corrupt and bad while straight people are the good, morally correct side. It's not super hard to understand.
@@billybillybobinny8954 actually that was just one point of many. I love the villains too! But it’s worth mentioning for the reasons the person above said. And for the reasons I said in the video
@@ravengrey9709 dawg boo hoo the show is literally all villains and you think that the just because they fiddle around with the main bad guys sexuality’s a little that makes it bad?
@@mediabuzzkill like the show can do all of those things because it’s not Gotham or the characters as we know it when Bruce is the Batman it’s decades before he’s Batman. So the show can do that to keep these characters we already knew interesting
"Is it gay to be obsessed with killing a man"
Hannibal would say yes
Edit: HOLY CRAP HOW DID I GET SO MANY LIKES??
considering most serial killers are thinking with their dick it absolutely is.
I CONCURR FELLOW FANNIBAL
Voldemort is so gay for Harry Potter
So those Hitman games are not about hitting on men?
Funny story, I never realized how gay the Joker is for Batman until Arkham Knight and that one female Joker started to embody his possessive nature.
I would like to point out that the wlw “couple” kissed every five minuets but the mlm “couple” only gets a hug. WHY!?
Fetish... sadly
Gross male writers who sexualize lesbians
So they never actually kissed? What the fuck?
I'm sorry for being so vulgar, but there are no other words then "What the fuck?" to describe this!
because, women only kiss so straight guys can jerk to it, obviously
Just looking at that hug scene and thinking "why the heck did you not just kiss the guy? He was right there for the smooching!" And the bad feeling only grew from then on.
If I remember correctly the writers wanted Ed and Penguin to end up together, or at least hint at them being together. But big ol' corporate said 'nah, they're brothers'.
The actors confirmed there was a kiss filmed for the finale, but it was cut.
@@honoramongscars649 really? i hadn't heard about that. when/where did they say this?
@@mediabuzzkill I remember hearing it around the time the finale was aired. Hopefully I'm not misremembering it since I can't find the info anymore. I just remembered it allegedly took place in the car.
@@honoramongscars649 I remember reading something along those lines. Robin and Cory both definitely hinted at it in interviews.
This just sounds like a bad fan fiction
Penguin and riddler had legitimately the best chemistry in the show, so why did we have to spend most of it watching them trying to kill each other?
This can be done well to be fair, but if you have to ask that the friends to enemies isn't done well at all in gotham then
Well they are villains after all, I think people have to remember this about the show. The people we follow are bad guys, future bad guys of Batman, a hero. Ofc they aren’t going to paint them in a good light
"If characters have good chemistry, they better be havin' sex!"
This is how I perceive that:
The Riddler struggles with 2 different personalities, the evil mastermind, and the awkward nerd, and he will do anything to preserve his villainous character. Oswald interferes with this greatly, because not only does he refuse to call him by his preferred name, but because the Riddler actually cares for Penguin and thinks that killing him will take those feelings away{Which he discovers to be a lie}.. I honestly don't think that Oswald ever truly wanted to kill the Riddler, though, hence why he chose to freeze him. Even after he got out of the ice, Penguins first thought was to put him back, even though it would have been easier to just kill him and prevent any further escapes. That was him, literally preserving his best and only friend lmfao..
I think that he really had to accept the Riddler for who he was in order for their friendship to work, and in the end it does, in the best and most evil way. They complete each other.
because edward just dont love penguin, dont matter if penguin love him..its not homophobia its just like life really can be.
Did they literally want us to root for the “falling in love with a clone of my dead ex”???
*My dead ex that I killed
It worked for The Vampire Diaries (though, spoiler alert: Katherine was never really dead)
I rooted for it
Better than Riddler and Penquin
@@franciscoancer2618 and it was fucking weird there too
no straight man is THAT committed to an aesthetic
I mean that basically means all of Batman’s rouges are gay.
@@creed8712 agreed then
Comments like this are strange in that they alienate straight men who are actually committed to an aesthetic or whatever else "no straight man" is.
Says a woman, who presumes to know everything there is to know about what it is to be a straight man. I get you want your fanfic to be canon, but for just a moment, could you drop blatant stereotypes and sexism?
@@gaiusjuliuscaesar9902 i was just trying to make a joke...
Just realized this show had three characters named Lee, Harvey and Oswald.
*takes glasses off* MY GOD!
This made me laugh outloud and my parents were arguing
@@Nostylistbrad I don't get the joke
@@deathrowbatman8756 the man who shot Lincoln or it might have been jfk I get them mixed up
@@blakeswanson1322 its the guy who shot JFK john wilkes booth was the guy who shot Lincoln
Penguin singing about Riddler being in his guts? That is gay culture
100%
Absolute perfection
i'm gonna be real, i entirely forgot about the sequence where ed genuinely and legitimately just. hallucinates oswald in the burlesque dream sequence??? i completely fucking repressed that, holy fuck gotham was off its SHIT.
i loved that sequence
It's incredibly cool to hear a bisexual woman discuss the problems with the way writers portray bisexual women on television. I look forward to hearing more from your perspective!
have you perhaps seen legends of tomorrow
Who cares? The show has way worse problems like being shit.
@@thebignacho And there are tons of videos discussing that? How many videos are there on this topic? I found it quite interesting honestly compared to the usual (but accurate) critiques of the show
I think another contributing factor is that Gotham aired on FOX who has a track record of things like this, I know the actors for Penguin and Riddler both wanted it to happen as well as a couple of the writers and other cast members but network interference may have prohibited them form ever showing anything concrete.
This tea is scalding. I love the contrast you made abt the wlw and mlm ships (physical not emotional, emotional not physical , respectively) which made me understand a little clearer exactly WHY the ships writing don’t feel fulfilling.
It *kills* me that the same sex woman couple are allowed to be physically intimate but the most the same sex men get is a hug.
kinda sexist yeah? Lets find more wrong :)
Yeah but then they get treated as best friends so it’s kinda still not great
Go watch a good DC show Doom Patrol there’s a lot of that lmao
It’s cause a lot of people especially in the entertainment industry love to fetishize women &women relationships
it's called fetishization
gothams homophobia was like 4d chess
nah, it was more like they started with a chessboard, and somewhere in the middle they started playing checkers
@@PeterParker-yo6gu it’s homophobia is modern. It’s not explicitly saying “gay people are inherently lesser beings than straight people” but in some ways, it is saying that implicitly. Yes, they gave us canonically gay characters, but look at what they did to them. Either the writers cloaked them in producer-satiating plausible deniability, or they were made explicitly queer so that straight guys could get off on it. And NONE of the gay couples in the show get a happy ending. So, in that way, the show is unintentionally saying “gay people cannot get a happy romantic ending” and if you follow that with traditionally storytelling tropes found in almost every single piece of American pop culture about karmic justice (I.e. “In the end, everyone gets what they deserve”) they are telling us “gay people don’t deserve to end up in happy, healthy romantic relationships. It’s just not normal. It’s just not right”
@@kendallwhite7002 Tey started with a chess bor and the right set up... and then they just threw in some checkers, black and white made moves with some of each others figures and then someone set the board on fire.
I wouldn’t call Gotham homophobic, to me it seems like the “homophobia” is just a result of Gotham’s generally iffy writing. Am I really supposed to expect deep and thoughtful writing about sexuality from a campy soap? I’d say it’s just bad representation at worst. When we start throwing the word homophobia around so loosely it loses all it’s meaning and people won’t take it seriously any more.
@@PeterParker-yo6gu Don’t worry Spider-Man, your secret identity is safe with me.
Btw, the whole plot with the clone of Edward’s girlfriend is a straight up homage to Alfred Hitchcock’s ‘Vertigo’ where Kim Novak plays an iced blonde who falls in love with Jimmy Stewart and then dies. (Notice how both the Gotham character and Kim Novak’s Madeline have the vertigo swirl to their hair.). In ‘Vertigo’ Stewart’s character finds a brunette Woman who looks like Kim Novak, and he forces her to dress up like the dead woman and die her hair blonde with a swirl. Obviously, there are reasons why this happens in Vertigo...since it’s written well. Also, the outfits, glasses, and even the woman appearing back-lit by a neon sign (which you can see when they are looking at wine bottles) are all lifted from Vertigo. Nothing wrong with homages, but...they should be motivated by something.
I hated that subplot
Gotham is a mix of many things. I noticed this with Vertigo which made Isabela more appealing to me. But it’s a mix in some parts of the purge, 13 going on 30 and many more stuff I forgot.
If its really a homage why do I hate it so much?
I would have loved to see this done well, but unfortunately it's Gotham
@@FelicityGemini Because it felt shoehorned in to prevent the riddler and penguin from getting together and it was never explained why she looks like a godamn clone
The other thing about Ed and Oswald is in one of the last scenes of the show, when they are tied up by Batman, they are physically holding hands. Like, fingers intertwined, gripping tightly, holding hands. I love them so much and was so disappointed when the representation I thought they were going to bring to the show was not a mutual love story that was cannon.
And the other thing I want to mention is that the people who made Gotham were not 100% homophobic themselves. At least two of the actors that I know of, Robin Lord Taylor (Penguin) and BD Wong (Dr. Strange) are both gay men in real life, and yet they both acted in the show. If the creators were really homophobic, neither one of them would be in there in the first place, and two of my favorite characters would never be the same. I think it was more the fact that Gotham was a public show put on cable TV every week for the whole of America and the rest of the world to see that the relationships were not explicitly shown in the series. The thing it all boils down to is that a lot of people are homophobic, and no matter how much we crave healthy gay relationships in the media, we may never get them, because for every lgbt person/ally, there are always going to be 10 homophobes/fetishists.
Cory Michael Smith (Ed) is also gay irl. The thing is, I don’t think anyone involved in the show is homophobic to the level of HATING gay people. There’s always layers to these sorts of things. A vast majority of people with bigoted beliefs will still interact, work with, and even befriend people who are a part of the groups they are prejudiced against. I don’t think the writers PURPOSEFULLY wrote a homophobic story, I think their latent homophobia shined through their writing.
Really? Huh, I didn't know about Corey. That's cool though, and you're right, I think that it's not the writers per say, but I think just the pressure put on them and the hotness of the topic at the time when the show was first released.
@@mediabuzzkill also oswalds actor is gay as well
@@mediabuzzkill ok but gotham's also just got really s*** writing this comes across as more bad representation than homophobia also to be fair the Riddler in the Comics is over the top campy anyway so he's not really gay stereotype he's just the Riddler
@@haranselcuk5522 he is campy, did you know that term was literally created by the lgbtq community
Finally someone calls out THE WAY GOTHAM TREATED TABITHA
Yeah, good. What they should have done with her is just kill her off, useless character that was only kept around for her gender and sexuality and that's facts.
Huh is almost like every wlw couples are made for the pure purpose to entretain hetero cis-male audience *I wonder why is that?*
Because they view lesbians as marketable/profitable for views rather than actual relationships.
Ikr its amazing im glad they did it my enjoyments went 📈📈📈
yess! but of course the women still have to cater to men or else their audience wont like it🙄
Pretty sure that was the majority viewer base
Sounds like someone’s posting cringe
I feel like this show just beat me to death, resurrected me, then spat on me and called me a slur
Oh I’d love a video about the sexism, ableism and racism in the show
yeah but it's still a good show. SO many shows have these problems. Don't get it twisted. It is far better than other shows in terms of entertainment. It feels like a Saturday morning cartoon in the best ways with a cohesive story (that isn't the best or anything but it's a story about how the city changes). I love this show so although these problems exist and I, too would love to see a video on that, I do not think this video should change your enjoyment of the show. Although if you already don't like it, you already don't and that's fine. But Gotham is NOT the only one doing this. And at least it attempted LGBT representation. That doesn't justify any flaws tho
There’s a difference between real ableism and inconvenient just cause it’s hard.
Please
@@rosalinecapulet I obviously know that. That's why I said it doesn't justify the flaws. But some people don't know that because they've never seen the show.
@@kirannkornat7761 yeah
I’ve gotta admit this isn’t the first time I’ve spent a little under an hour watching a video about a show I know nothing about but this was one of the most interesting ones. The way themes and parallels were picked out was really well thought out and probably things I wouldn’t have noticed had I been a viewer of the show.
I haven't seen Gotham in a long time, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the way they wrote Ivy's character and aging her up made me high key uncomfortable from what I remember. I see a lot of people use this Ivy in Harley/Ivy edits and it just always reminds me that she was a literal child in the start of the show until they aged her body up.
YES. Same, I forgot she was aged up and then I remembered and was like 😀. Oh no.
Yeah, what was with that? She just gets aged up and suddenly she’s just a sexy master criminal? There have been entire movies about kids in adult bodies, but they ignore that for favour of bringing in the comics Ivy because the writers just wanted comics Ivy and to hell with character consistency. They may as well have just brought in a different character.
They had no problem with Selina Kyle being a kid who could grow up to be Catwoman, who is in the same vain as femme fatale villain... why was Ivy even a character as a kid?
@@samuelbarber6177 Honestly, Bruce, Selina, and Ivy being young makes no sense. They should've just kept them young and explored things that way or something instead of aging her up through pretty unexplained means??
@@la_rata_5849 anyway, they may as well have just introduced Ivy as an adult. Nothing really came from her being a child.
@@samuelbarber6177 YES. She wasnt even a kid for long so like?? Might as well have made her an adult at first. Then it's also not creepy af.
as a bi lady, the wlw couples always gave me a bad vibe with how sexual and slow each kiss was and close in, it just feels like wlw were only there for the straight men
the straight kisses and relations werent filmed the same way and it felt less porny, the mlm relationship only got a hug
You make a really good point, I just realized the difference in filming the straight make out scenes and the wlw ones.
31:44 when the sexual tension is a little too high for your liking
no but seriously tho, great video. as a gay who has seriously mixed feelings about gotham, you voiced all my thoughts perfectly.
I am so sorry if this show is ruined for LGBT and women fans of the show.
@caitlyncarvalho7637 yeah fr. Flash and supergirl suffered from this, not arrow except maybe season 4 but even then that was just bad writing not wokeness
What angered me about Tabatha was there was so much more potenital she was the abused member of a cult under her brothers power that could of worked if her phycology as a groomed follower who struggles for independence but has a bad habit of falling back into her old habits of letting others take control was something that was explorered on say the same level as Oswald's hunger for affection vs his need for adoration. And it being painted as this tragic thing. And yeah I hoped with the death of Barbra she'd finally get her due. I disagree though that her and Selena as a team up would of been bad for her character. If they did tabby justice exploring her trying to be an older sibling despite her own toxic upbringing through her relationship with Selena while propelling her forward as a kick ass mentor could exhance both their characters. I think putting her back with Barbra was the biggest mistake.
Also the writers threw away the potential of a complex female child soilder storyline and I cann't even fathom what they were thinking. Also I think they wrote her as sexy badass lady but the reveal that her relationship to violence is very cult driven makes it way more complex. It was the thing that may of made her feel powerful but trapped her as Theo's tool.
yeah that'd have been great.
Cool character, but they killed her off. Same with Butch.
As soon as Tigress killed Gertrude (Penguin's mother), and helped in the murder of Jérôme & Jeremiah's father, and both times she looked like she was having the time of her life... and how she kept reminding Oswald that she was the one who killed his mom... there was no possible happy ending for her.
Which sucks because Butch is my favorite Gotham-original character (well, before the Cyrus Gold twist at least), and I adored his relationship with Tabitha... I also liked how she ended up saving Silver, and took Selina under her wing.
but she had to die at Oswald's hand for what she did.
But sure, I would have liked to have more backstory with her and Theo; sadly we only got the Azrael mini-arc to explore parts of their past with the cult of St-Dumas.
@@randallflagg3700 Yeah, but under all that facade. Tabitha is actually an unique, compassionate, loving and nice person. I get how she did Penguin's mother, it was sad. But it was also a great twist to her villainous nature on how Tigress is in the comics.
Yeah, the Isabela introduction was the worst part of the show. They should have made her a part of some "clone" plot twist or at the very least a figment of Ed's twisted imagination.
It's Gotham. There are clones and evil twins and doppelgangers. Isabella's introduction is perfect. Instead of seeing penguin lose all of his power and then slowly take over the underworld for the third time, we got to see him at his highest point betrayed by his own feelings. Ed told him that his mother made him weak. It comes full circle when his desire to be with Ed is what ruins him. On a conceptual level, the only thing that Ed wants enough to forget Oswald for a night is Kristen. And no one was setting him up or reviving some random girl. It's just chance. It's also a really easy way to show that Ed has evolved and grown. He's not afraid of hurting her and he's ready for a relationship. That only makes it more heartbreaking when Oswald can't be with him. Toward the end of the show, Oswald and Ed are going to hug. Their instincts tell them to kill each other because they know they've both betrayed the other so many times. Instead, they keep each other alive. It's because they love each other. They both know deep down that their love for each other is not a strength, but a weakness that their enemies might use to hurt them. All the more reason to kill. They rationalize in their heads looking for a reason to keep the other alive, and they have to come to terms with the fact that they can only have the other as a friend. And for them, that's enough. Isabella and her role in their relationship and evolution is so important for that moment. Worst part of the show? REALLY?
@@ericschnautz6603 People aren't going to look at this from your perspective. The writers KNEW that everyone was rooting for Oswald and Ed to be an item and for them to throw in another person (a clone none the less) JUST as Oswald was going to confess without any ties to an overarching plot left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. This whole paragraph might have explained the whole ordeal in a more logical light, but it doesn't erase the damage done and the fact that this was, in fact, an example of queerbaiting. I'd argue that Isabella being included wasn't the WORST but it had so much potential only for it to add up to nothing satisfying or interesting IMO.
UA-cam has already been deleting comments and I'm not sure why, so if you've left a comment and it's gone, please know I didn't delete it. I'm not sure what's going on with that, I'm sorry 😕EDIT: I’ve noticed the one common theme among the deleted comments is the use of the word q*eer. Which is annoying but I can’t figure out how to fix it. Try to avoid using that word or censor it in your comment so it doesn’t get deleted.
@blinkfilms1 I’m not sure if you’ll see this but I did see your comment and appreciated all your thoughts a lot, I’m so sorry you typed all that and then UA-cam deleted it 😩
I like that UA-cam’s attitude is that bigotry will end, not by holding people on their platform more accountable, giving users more ability to protect themselves on the site, or making it more difficult to profit off of harassment and bigotry, but by censoring those who are the victims or who are pointing out that bigotry! It’s for their protection! Definitely does not have anything to do with the biggest companies tending m to have more “conservative” values, shall we say.
Just came accross this and i like it😄
Sheeeesh, I know there are those that still find the term q33r offensive, but I thought that it was a term reclaimed by our community, thus the Q in LGBTQ+. This is troublesome language policing as it is an important term for discussion for q33r topics.
@@BeastGuardian It depends on their experiences.
I feel so shitty after just watching this with no attachment to the charecters or the show i cant imagine how living through this might be. This is a great video, i hope to see more from you
You mean for fans of the show?
@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 yeah, for fans of the show
After the supernatural ending I don’t think I’m ready for emotional involvement that ultimately ends in disappointment 🙃🙃
@@glitter_skeleton35 yeah well it's still a good show. A fun show
@@beckybrook719 wasn't all bad. The journey was fun and the end wasn't the worst. It was fine. Good even.
As a straight person, I would have loved them actually getting together. It was build up to be deep and emotional, and yeah a bit murderous, but I would have gotten a lot more out of seeing that kind of relationship on screen, than Ed's new hook up for the week. I dont care what gender they character like as long as you make their relationships meaningful! Like I don't feel any less represented (not that straights need more of that) by them being gay. In fact I feel less represented by those short lived flings they called straight relationships.
Ed hooking up with anyone kinda feels wrong, with the exception of Oswald as they had actually laid the foundation for them.
It was literally one of the best developed romantic relationships I’ve ever seen on tv
I think Oswald's actor suggested that if a woman had treated his character with the decency and support that Ed showed him, he would have likely fallen for her as well. So Gotham's version of the Penguin could be bisexual.
I think he’s asexual but lonely. He just wants a friend, remember how badly he wanted Gordon to be his friend in season one?
Possibly. But I personally think he is definitely asexual, he just has never had real friendship and he doesnt know what to do when someone shows him real kindness. Everyone saying hes gay really didnt pay attention to the show.
mlm characters: Staring into each other's eyes at the end of the season
wlw characters: Literally already fucking in the first episode
The straight male gaze is still active in a seemingly progressive show.
@ً ....wow
@ً what you talking about?
All of these scenes of Ed and Oswald being sweet to each other are so cute. Almost makes you forget they're mass murdering crimelords.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, and also how they end up killing and torturing each other. I had completely erased that arc from my memory.
And the fact that ed and Oswald are literally gay in real life just makes me think why didnt You guys make them gay in the show😤😤🖐️🖐️🤧🤧👁️👄👁️
Wait I thought cory was straight
Because it's not interesting.
@@velynnec Cory came out as bi a few years ago I think, I can't remember the exact year though
Just because the actors are gay doesn't mean their characters HAVE to be gay, the character of Penguin and Riddler are not gay or doesn't seem to be that way in the comic. And also making characters "Gay" just because of it,like thats actually bad representation if the character have interesting and have depth storyline and are known to be of the LGBT character spectrum then good, but forcing a relationship or agenda on a show or character is counter-productive and really doesn't do anything for the subject community they're are trying to represent
@@veen-a2092 i agree with you, however, there's no point trying to convince these people that side against that. They clearly do not care about good literature and simply want to include their preferences into literature in order to enjoy it. It is quite neurotic.
“Ed likes them thicc” I’M DEAD☠️☠️
i only watched the first season, but hearing how they treated gay and lesbian relationships makes me so sad and angry
Same, I honestly I thought I would get back to it some day, but after seeing this I’m considering just dropping it lol
I mean, there were gay relationships, they just didnt last because some were killed
Ok snowflakes
@@Asriuh just shut up honestly
never watched this show, so im not emotionally invested, but still seeing those Gotham friendship tweets felt like a punch in the gut. I am SO sorry yall. that is.....SO fucked.
It’s so sad cause I love Gotham. Like it’s such good acting, but gosh dang they were horrible with Ed and Oswald. Like you can’t tell me those two aren’t in love. In my head they’re just ace (but this is literally because of the show. I kinda think Oswald is) and they’re in a relationship in the future
amen
The only way to write it.
It’s one sided
There was a scene of them kissing in the end of season five, but it wasn't put in due to the studios decision.
Them being ace makes so much sense in my head I’m glad that someone else agrees. The two characters had great chemistry that a romantic relationship felt like it could be natural and believable, but due to the characters a sexual relationship didn’t really make sense, at least imo
Ya no straight person will casually wear bright green. Just no it’s not possible
Plus his vibes. Like... that pose with his hand pointing toward him? I literally do that pose constantly, and I have never seen this show. Riddler is gay, and there is nothing anyone can fucking do about it
@@artemisfowldragon calm down, no one cares if Riddler is gay or not.
@@j_islam7869 the penguin certainly does
@@artemisfowldragon yeah I meant non fiction
Except there are straight people that wear bright green casually.
So.... Are you gonna start selling "Death means nothing in Gotham" t-shirts or?
Jean Grey laughs in your direction!
@@punkwrestle Jean Grey is always laughing at me. She's such a meanie
Unless it's Thomas and Martha Wayne
@@hailpickens2454 There used to be an old saying in the comic book industry. "The only three people who stay dead are Uncle Ben, Jason Todd, and Bucky Barnes"
They really should replace the last two with the Waynes
I believe they already have that, just “death means nothing in comics” cause funny enough it was a batman character that was one of the things that started the death means nothing in comics trope
The funniest part about nygmobblepot is Tze Chun on twitter being pissed about not being able to make them gay as he could
ive never seen an episode of this show, but the part where gotham tweeted about the two women being best friends genuinely made me mad
also that thing with Ed and the clone woman LITERALLY APPEARING OUT OF NOWHERE????
So two people of the same gender can't be friends, okay then
@@j_islam7869 I think when those two people regularly make out with each other and have sex and have several major emotional beats in their character arcs about caring for each other, they're *maybe* more than friends
@@alicedruitt4805 yeah no that's just called the female gender
@@j_islam7869 Oh cool, you're a troll. Good to know.
@@alicedruitt4805 no, it's not a joke, two girls will kiss and that would be called friendship, two men kiss and they are gay
me, who has never watched gotham: there's gay people in this show?
me, twenty minutes into this video, watching the penguin/riddler clips: jesus cHRIST
I literally have never seen Gotham and found this because I was bored and looked through whatever the fuck ed and penguins ship name is in not spelling that because of a Hannibal gif it was connected to but anyway just from the clips in this video this show seems very 1960s batman campy and I have no clue why. Anyway, I'm only halfway through but I love the video so far and thank you for satisfying my need to watch video essays where people drag shows I will never watch.
22:05 A Clone, In THAT wig, girl...im ready to fight the writers, producers, directors and now the hair and makeup people
29:19 What is going on luv ❤️
31:50 IM YELLING 😭😭
43:34 HOLY SHIT IS THAT ANDREW SIDDIG FROM STAR TREK DS9 WTF
@@ShrekGrunge thank you! and yes the show can be quite campy at times and tbh that's one of the best parts about it hbvghvbj and yep thats andrew siddig! he played ra's al ghul
finally some good analysis of gotham
Great vid! Re the knife hug, I never really read it as them wanting to stab each other and not being able to go through with it, and more as a representation of trust. Both characters have been trying to kill each other in the past, plus both have been stabbed in the back numerous times both figuratively and literally but A LOT of people. They both have huge trust issues, and for warranted reasons. I always took that scene to read as them still being wary enough of each other that they're defensive going into the hug, like there's still a slight wibble of trust that one might be tricking the other. It's not "i wanna stab you but couldn't bring myself to do it", more "i think you might stab me, and bitch, if you do i'ma stab u back". But when the stab never comes from either, the relief is very obvious. It's a big moment of trust from both sides as they realise neither of them are tricking the other. They're not going into the hug with intent, they're going into it with tired defensiveness. It's a wall coming down for them.
Edit: Also the sort of people who say representation doesn't matter in media and "who cares? they're fictional" are the same damn people who can't handle any character being shown as lgbtq+ or as a poc on screen. I mean, get over it, guys. It's just fiction ;P What they *mean* is they only want to see their world view.
The part about WLW relationships being allowed to express the relationship only physically, while MLM relationships are fixated emotionally is dead-on. Reminds me of Hannibal -- in which the primary MLM relationship never gets any physical intimacy beyond hugs (or intense staring) while the WLW relationship's first scene is them having sex. I love Hannibal a lot, way more than Gotham, but it's interesting to point out how this trope prevails even if created by a gay man.
As someone with an overall positive feeling about _Gotham_, I thought it was important that I also check out a video (that's 40min long) about its homophobia. And holy hell did I forget about the Kristen Kringle clone plot! They kinda just... brushed it under the rug, never explaining it. Overall, this did put into light the homophobic issues of the show that I did pick up on, but never quite fully grasp until now. That was enlightening, so thank you!
I absolutely loved gotham as a teen, and I still do, but you did summarize all of my complaints about the relationships in the show. The only reason I watched the show in the first place was because I loved Penguin from an episode I saw. Watching him get backstabbed by Ed, even though Penguin kinda deserved it felt so horrible to me as a fan. It really was like the showrunners were spitting on the fans for shipping the two obviously in love dudes. At least I'm glad we got a semisweet ending with them two.
Another thing I've seen commonly in various shows is that lesbians or bi girls are acceptable but having two gay/bi men is usually never acceptable. Like for example I've watched shows like shera or even okko with explicitly lesbian characters who kiss on screen and obviously love each other, but canonically gay characters never have a wedding or even kiss in almost every show, but just played off subtlety.
penguin and riddler arent gay in the comics and like it was stated in the video gotham is prelude to batman so why would they make the gay when it does not suit the storyline at all.
@@majharulali5335 there is no set storyline for DC though. The same with marvel. I'm pretty sure it varies from series to series. Plus, these are just Gothams versions of the characters. They dont really affect the comics at all.
this
How were they in love though? Ed cared about Oswals as a friend. The only person he ever truly loved was that one girl (forgot her name) and when he found someone who looked like her (which I will admit was weird), Oswald had her killed.
Oswald was a sociopath who never had real friendship before and he obviously didnt know what to do with someone showing him kindness. I dont think he is necessarily gay as he never was really romantically in love. Y'know how best friends say I love you sometimes?
It made perfect sense that Ed backstabbed Oswald. If it really upset you that much then maybe you weren't paying attention to the story.
Gordon trying and falling to stop crime is basically most if not all of Gordon's character development
You basically just described his character in every form of entertainment, I mean yeah, the guy is only there to be friends with batman, have a daughter who works with batman and to interact with batman
You know what. That Isabella person never existed and Ed and Oswald got married. Idc
Better than the show
I hated the Ed and Lee thing
But I did dig Lee's dark eyeliner
Because it's the signature color of good girl gone evil haha
Agreed the Ed and Lee thing was my least favorite part of that season
As someone who never even finished the first season of gotham, I’m literally appalled by the Oswald-Ed storyline. It’s literally so cruel and really does come off as a gay man being tortured for being gay
I'm not sure what you mean. I watched the whole show and that simply does not happen.
This was such a great video!! Definitely worth the watch!! The balance between informative, serious analysis and humor was great. Also, the point you made at the end, comparing the wlw and mlm relationships, was incredibly interesting and important. 47 minutes well spent.
I didn’t expect Oswald to fall for ed and I wouldn’t know what to think of such a change. But robin lord Taylor made me interested and believe penguin had a crush on riddler. And their chemistry actually made me ship them. I knew they wouldn’t make it canon because they were such big villains and main characters in the show and so many people would probably never be okay with it.
Than maybe don't fucking write them being gay'
@@unchartedraider7547 yeah I'd say it's a problem when you seem to be promising and leading your fans on with something like this only to end it like,,,that.
Edward looks like idubbbz
I loved this show, still do, but there really was missed potential during many storylines. I had never really picked up on the romantic tension between Oswald and Ed (I was just happy Oswald finally had someone to call a genuine friend), but watching this video made me realize how blind I was lmao. I was so immensely happy when I found out Penguin was going to be gay. As a gay man, I still am excited when I finally get some representation. I was sorely disappointed when Penguin never actually got a boyfriend (whether that be Ed or someone else). I will say, as a character that is often portrayed as one of those mob bosses that has pretty girls dancing in his clubs, I’m glad they steered away from enforcing the predatory stereotype of gay men even further by having him be in the company of hot, young guys. But that’s the bare minimum lol.
I could have forgiven them for the cruel way in which Ed got his revenge on Oswald and the season of them trying to kill each other, if the final season would indeed have made them boyfriends. But honestly the set-up before Isabelle came into the picture was RIGHT THERE.
"Maybe he had an overdue book and things got out of hand"
- Butch Gilzeen
This is a very good video. Well-made, well-structured and analytical. I'm surprised it doesn't have more views. I'm glad this popped up in my recommendations.
Oh yeah, the sabotaging of the Nygmobblepot relationship was the last straw for me. Looks like I dodged a bullet. Even Michael Cerveris as Professor Pyg couldn't lure me back.
I was listening to this in the background and actually did a double take when I found out Robin and Cory are LGBTQ, that makes so much sense why I related to them so much in the show.
I clicked on this video not even aware of this show's existance, did not expect to get so emotionally invested in the riddle man and penguin man's friends to enemies to friends to lovers arc, what a wasted opportunity, could've been the morally gray power couple of the century
the number 1 reason why i stopped watching the show was how it treated its woman characters
That's so sad
They treated women characters just fine
Wait, why???
They were awesome, Ivy was great, Selina too, Echo too, I don't like Barbara or Tabi because they are annoying (for me) but yeah.
@@hailpickens2454 because feminist
@@hailpickens2454 if women aren't op they get mad and call it sexist
OMG I literally yelled at my screen when they went for the hug instead of kissing.
I really thought that they were gonna kiss. I was so annoyed
Hate everything about this, but especially the fact that the wlw couple is allowed physical intimacy but not emotional, but the mlm couple is allowed emotional intimacy, but not physical
i had my gotham/nygmobblepot phase a few years ago and this video just made me feel so validated like, god this show was a lot. but also. i still love ed and oswald to this day. they had such amazing chemistry and those early plotlines and character dynamics were SO good
and it still makes me so sad how little actual development barbara and tabitha got, and how they're relationship wasn't taken seriously for the majority of the show. they always felt like they were there just be hot and sexy with no depths. i loved this show and there are still characters and episodes that i look back on fondly but man, what a waste
As a writer, this really holds a mirror for me and makes me want to write my LGBT+ characters better.
Edit: scratch that, it made me want to write my relationships in general better
I agree there were homophobic undertones in the show, and queerbaiting. Women were making out all the time for male viewers. The relationship between Tabitha and Barbara was basically butchered. Canonical lesbian Montoya was reduced to a alcoholic pain in the ass for a few episodes then disappeared. The only mlm storyline was Penguin and Riddler, and it was butchered too by the Isabella storyline and the "we're brothers" line in season 5. How come Gordon gets to make out with every woman he meets but there's never been a gay kiss in the show?
HOWEVER, I don't agree with some of the points that were made. Penguin as a gay man wasn't supposed to "change people's minds about gay people and relationships". Not every instance of gay representation has to be about liberation. In this case, it was assimilation: they never addressed it, he just happened to be gay. And honestly, I'm glad. Liberation stories matter, but for Oswald, it would have made no sense for him to have a coming out arc or something. He's always been unashamedly himself. And if you want to talk about "changing people's minds on gay people", what about the storyline with Martin? That challenged the idea that gay men shouldn't have young boys in their care, didn't it?
You say yourself that Oswald wasn't punished because he gay, he was punished for being selfish, which made total sense for his character. It wasn't a gay man being predatory, it was a selfish killer being jealous. And that was made clear by the show, which kept insisting that Ed felt betrayed. Anyone who watches the betrayal storyline in season 3 and concludes that "gay love is pretadory and selfish, demands punishment" either hasn't watched the rest of the show and doesn't know how Oswald acts, either is overthinking, either is just very homophobic. Your friend who said "Ew, as if he wasn't creepy enough" has some issues. My main concern when I realized they were going to make Oswald gay wasn't that he was creepy, it was that they'd make him predatory or overly sexual. Which didn't happen.
Queercoded villains have the implications that queer is evil, straight is good. But Oswald isn't queercoded, he's literally gay. He's not written as predatory: he never flirts with anyone and, by killing his love interest's lover, was just looking for his love to be requited. This isn't a subtly gay male villain being the face of everything society should fear, like Joker, this is a gay man existing. A gay man who, despite his evil deeds, was often written so that we'd feel empathy for him (unlike Joker). Yes, it's a shame the only gay man of the show was a villain. But the show *was* about villains, and Oswald was a beloved character.
Being a lesbian, the homophobia broke my heart
Being a straight man, the hebephobia that restricted the natural adolescent escalation of Bruce and Selina's relationship into a sexually healthy bf/gf thing, broke my heart.
@@nodiggity9472 Are you saying hebephobia as in the hatred of kids? Because if so the show was supposed to have 2 more seasons so that is most likely the reason It didn't progress. However if you were trying to say heterophobia as in prejudice against straight people the show had many relationships where there was confirmed physical and romantic attraction Lee and Jim Gordon even got married and Bruce's and Selina's relation ship would have progressed as stated above. There was defiantly no heterophobia and I don't think there was hebephobia either.
@@PuppetCals I think I meant that in any normal, everyday teenage romance, ( I know this is Gotham but still . . ) Bruce and Selina would have been all over each other like a rash. But no, I never noticed any prejudice against straight people at all.
And by hebephobia, I meant the bias against at least recognising the seckseual dynamics of adolescence in a realistic and relatable way, especially seeing as the show's main demographic are around the age of these two protagonists.
But mostly, I think I was reacting against the utterly ridiculous post by the heartbroken lesbian above me who quite frankly, needs to stay indoors. Homophobia? In Gotham?
🤣😅🤣
Good.
It's been like an hour since I finished watching Gotham, and I loved it so much. I cried too because it was over and I needed it to go on. I was thinking that this is one of the best comic shows ever 10/10 loved it. Watched a few video essays, everything was still the same. And I've just finished watching this.
Goddamn...
Wow.
Man, being woke has a cost, doesn't it? I hate so many things I loved about the show earlier. I first started this video thinking wtf what absolute crap, this is unreal, this show is amazing, the representation is great.
Ma'am, I've been redpilled.
I agree with everythiiiiiiing you've said, and yeah even tho I'm v idiotic, I had issues with "we're brother, a hug" too but damn that not stab scene won me over and I forgave everything. Also Tabby T_T
Thank you very much for making this. I can't wait for more of your stuff. All the best of good luck raised to power infinity.
Guri Furi thank you so much! Of course you can still love the show, though. It has a lot of problems with it that are important to recognize but there’s a lot to love too! I used to have nothing but anger for it but now that time has passed I’ve been able to weigh the bad with the good. Glad I could help you see the issues though. It’s important to be critical about the things you love even if it can suck to do so. Thank you for your comment and your support ❤️
It really is a great show despite these horrible flaws
same
i mean, what else did we expect from a show that was basically like "hey remember that superman show from like, 13 years ago? let's cash grab that" and tried to repeat the formula.
SOMEBODY SAAAAAAAAAAAVE MEEEEEEEEEEE
Honest oswald was what made me keep returning to the show. I was so sad at how much they wasted his potential.
This is like, basically one of the only special interests I have where this sort of critique doesn't send me into a panicky tail-spin, and your masterful handling of this subject kept me docile and calm through the entire video. If you ever decide to delve into Gotham's other issues or anything, I know that would be a video I'd enjoy. Good content!
Ive never seen Gotham, Im Marvel nerd but this video summarizes in words the way same sex pairing are too often portrayed : women get physical intimacy, men get emotional intimacy. They arent allowed to be whole human beings.
This is a problem I have also for some reason if men talk about love it becomes “ gay”. We are consistently told men are toxicly masculine not in touch with emotions ect. Then you go and tell men that showings of emotional attachment to other men and not women is gay reguardless of if they show sexually intent.
Damn, this was your FIRST? It was amazing, video essays are something I wish I could do but I honestly have no confidence in my own words, this was amazing for a first essay though, holy shit. Earned my sub!
3:20 - "Did they really just go 'oh, a man and a woman looked at each other...'" Yes, almost certainly. I used to think I didn't like romance subplots that much...and then I started seeing gay romances and liking at least 80% of them and realized how many straight romances are just "boy + girl = kiss" (and don't get me started on the ones that ought to be a horror movie). Shippers do the same lazy stuff with same-gender pairings, of course, but if it makes it into the actual text the writer usually put more than 10 seconds of thought into answering "why do these characters like each other?"
I had completely forgotten the Kristen-clone plotpoint and how there was no explaination at all to it. It seemed like there had to be, because her character was obviously tailor-made with the single purpose of ruining this relationship - life and coincidence don't create people like that for situations like this, but Gotham villains do, it was the whole plot of Falconi in season one. This clone was maybe the dumbest thing the show ever did, right up there with whatever Hugo Strange and Fish Mooney were up to after their original plots were through. Oh and not to mention making Poison Ivy a child in an adult body, who is then kind of seductive because that's what Poison Ivy does, but also not because she's an fing child. Well this went offtopic.
I discovered you via your destiel video essay, and even though I’ve never seen this show beyond tumblr gigs, I really dig your analytical style. This essay is really compelling despite my having never seen the show. And you did well with how you discussed Tabitha, because WOW, all I know of this show is your bare bones description of the plot and even I can tell the way they treated her character was a mess of racism and homophobia. The way she was treated could probably be an essay on its own.
The writing each season was gradually becoming the same low tier writing as Once upon a time.
I've never watched this show but this video was entertaining, good job on your first video essay! And woow Gotham sounds bad and tbh, pretty uncomfortable to watch, i'm sorry you at through that! i could tell in the first few minutes of this video that barbara and tabitha were treated with the male gaze in mind when they made out in front of a man.... Have the writers never MET a lesbian or bi woman?
Your points about how ed and oswald are allowed to have an emotional relationship but not a physical one, and vise versa for barbara and tabitha were so good! I feel like those expectations is really common in media (and in real life too tbh) and that's such a succinct way to put it.
I hope you're doing better and I'm looking forward to your next video, whenever you make it! :)
It's really a great show don't get the wrong impression. Well if you haven't watched it yet it's probably not your type of show. I doubt what you watch isn't just as guilty of all this. Or maybe not. Look, don't let this video solely define your view of the show. It's very fun and campy but not in a super over the top way. Very stylized and The Joker is the reaosn I watch it. My favorite version of the character. But there's lots of other interesting character interactions and great characters.
dude you're actually overreacting lmao
Bro its a great show, even the person who made this vid really enjoys it. This is a minor part of the show, most of it is just superhero fun, not a romance drama
Also! Gotham is not the first time on screen where it's hinted that The Riddler is into guys. Batman Forever did it too. Now, if DC weren't a bunch of cowards, maybe they'd make him canonically bi. But for some reason (it's the biphobia) DC only ever portrays women as being bi, and just like in Gotham, it is usually for audience to gawk at.
Ahem, LE DICK GRAYSON.
Discovered your channel with your analysis of destiel, which was beautifully done- then I saw that you had a video on Gotham and I'm hooked! I can't wait to see future videos from you!
Dropped this show before the knives to each others backs, but still watched a good chunk. Even as a cis, hetero, male I remember being annoyed as hell by how they wrote Ed to not want to accept being gay/bi to the point of killing his object of desire. Definitely was part of dropping the show
That hugging-almost-stabbing scene was both hilarious and touching tho
didn't oswald's actor say if a woman took ed's place he'd still fall in love? making him bisexual?
(Or pan)
Yeah I think he kind of falls for anyone who treats him well, for example I feel like he had feelings for Sophia after she was so nice to him.
@@juditn2662 Exactly
I think there's a term for that actually, demisexual IIRC
@@Flareontoast they're the same thing
Not to mention when Barbra lost Tabitha and SPOILERS got pregnant with Jim’s baby she was a way less evil
penguin becomes mayor of gotham is actually a pretty common plot line in Batman media
True but how they went about it on the show, what with the slogan and fake tan on top of the 2016 air time, is so on the beak with who he is supposed to be a stand in for Mr. Garrison looks subtle in comparison.
Remembering that I watched a few seasons of this show and I think I dropped it after the hallucination episode. Messy indeed, I remember hating the clone girl plot and feeling bad for Oswald. There’s no heterosexual explanation for dropping everything to go live with your homie in his mansion and spending all your time together and hallucinating them 🤷♀️
I'm honestly a little surprised that you didn't include how other villains, while not canon gay, are gay-coded, like Jeremiah. His flamboyance and obsession with Bruce and such has biiggg gay vibes
Let's all be honest here. We all watched this show because of 2 reasons. The relationship between Alfred and Bruce and the perfection that is Jerome Valeska (aka the joker but we can't legally speaking call him that)
For some reason I did not like Jerome, maybe he was too irrationally crazy for me. But we stan Alfred in this house.
I didn't really like Jerome. Too much taking him off the show then bringing him back
Nope! For me it was the evolution of the Penguin and the Riddler that brought me to watch Gotham! but I stuck to the show as I loved other characters, and the actors really did a good job, especially Cameron, Robin, Cory, David and Sean! (those are my personal favorites) so yea not everyone watched Gotham just for Jerome..
i was SOOO obsessed with these two when i was watching the show, and genuinely so upset about how they ended up. it took years for me to finally watch season 5 tbh...
honestly if they had gotten together but then were toxic and kept breaking up and getting back together, i think that would have been so much better than what we actually got
I ain't even seen Gothem and I ship Edward and Oswald.
Its almost like the show should have created its own characters so they could do whatever they wanted with them. The setting being Gotham was all this show needed, most of the villains they used shouldnt have even existed at that stage, go nuts and make up your own.
The show was addicted to fan service, and thus was predisposed to fail at being original or subtle.
I always had a weird feeling about the queerness in the show. It often felt like it was there to be edgy and to be shocking, not to show actual representation. Your video has reaffirmed my bad feelings. I don’t think the makers of the show did any of this intentionally, I think this is likely subconscious bias. But yeah, every lesbian kiss felt very much like a “BET YA DIDN’T SEE THAT COMING” moment
@Caitlyn Carvalho I forgot that happened. I haven’t watched the show in a long time. That’s fucked up
Penguin and Riddler both had almost no relationships or friendships to speak of before the Gotham TV show (besides penguin being a creepy womanizer in other animated depictions.) I find it extremely satisfying that they explored that extensively in this show, but also mad that they never got a confirmed relationship, though they obviously wanted that problem to be fixed by having the two "loneliest" characters be together.
You make some valid points, I'll give you that: however, you got to take in to consideration that gotham is a show about how the city of gotham turns people evil, so it makes sense that most of the LGBT characters (along with most of the actual characters) are villains. Also when this show was being released LGBT rights weren't really accepted yet, so it makes sense. Gotham made many, many, many mistakes, but they did what they could with what they had. Loved the video, looking forward to what else you make.
wow Gotham did the homophobic gay confession way before supernatural huh
They need to not bother with representation if they keep going the take-sies back-sies route in the name of ratings.
There are dedicated networks for lgbtq+ entertainment but those aren't in the cheaper packages.
It's exhausting.
Every time I hear of something that could have been nice, it becomes a slap in the face during or down the road at the last minute.
Granted I don't watch television galore like I used to (before gaming took over xD), not much is bringing me back to it.
Have you made a video on ivy and how her transformation/age up was also unnecessary and kinda problematic? I also didn't like that they did that .
Rlly how so can u pls explain??
It's actually kinda gross. Instead of having her age up naturally alongside Selena and Bruce and be the same age as them... The writers decided to flash her age forward so they could explore the Sexy seduction side of her and completely sideline her main power of plants and her knowledge of botany and biology. I get it, Poison Ivy is a femme fatale in nature but the way they did it...was literally just so they could overly sexualise her in her appearance, and so they could write in plots where she was being seductive and sexy...yknow, rather than having her grow into her powers and explore them they decided to uncomfortably flash her forward in age just to sexualise her, as if she literally wasn't just a child five minutes ago. They literally didn't have to do this and it would've added so much depth to her character if they had her just have the accident and slowly grow up with her powers getting stronger each season normally, than skipping 10 years because then she's old enough to seduce...that is a literal child why are you introducing the character at the age of a child and immediately thinking "well fuck now we can make her sexy". It's just...gross
excellet essay, i can hardly believe this is your first video! i have been looking for an analysis like this for a long time and had many of the same thoughts, i love it!
i get frustrated thinking about this show a lot, because it's kind of my comfort show and i'd love to simply file it under "bad as in badly written and good as in i like it", but so many of the things i like about it i find genuinely and unironically good, and yet i can't deny that it overall sucks ass. i think it's always going in 5 different directions at once and i'll never stop being baffeled at how much the different aspects vary in quality or how often they'll set something up and then just do absolutly nothing with it! (isabella is obviously the prime example of this, but i can think of so much more) it's infuriating! what were they even trying to do? i'll never get over it.
i watched all of it when s5 was just coming out, so i guess my view of the s3 stuff is more in the bigger picture. you're right about what oswald goes through being too cruel to be justified really, but overall i almost found the plotpoint excusable, bc it is textually romantic and results in some great character development for both oswald and ed, that they both needed if they were ever to have a healthy relationship. they both go from idolizing the other, to only seeing the other's flaws, to accepting each other as they are and honestly that's great! it's interesting! it's compelling! ... except they refuse to let it be romantic. you see, i get why big tv shows are afraid to make their characters canonically gay. it sucks and i hate it, but i get it. but gotham? they're afraid of making a relationship romantic That They Already Established As Having A Romantic Dimension Two Seasons Ago??? what in god's name is the point of that????? drives me up the fucking wall.
anyways, i'll stop my own ramble here. you put it all so well! a delight to watch!