What material should you make tongs out of
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2018
- There seem to be lots of question concerning what the best material to make tongs out of is. Here are my thoughts on the subject of blacksmithing tongs and what the best type of material for tongs is.
Thank you again John for taking the time to answer what should be obvious to some but not to those of us starting out. Bravo Sir for again Teaching. your wisdom is not lost on us and we appreciate your passing along a master's wisdom.
Well, it was news to me. I guessed that mild steel would deform too easily, especially when it got hot. It made more sense to me that tongs should be at least medium steel. Interesting that it's the mild steel that is not only tolerable, but preferred for tongs!
@@SuperDavidEF Another advantage I have found is that if the tongs aren't a perfect fit, I can heat them up red hot, grab a piece of project material and give the jaws a couple of taps with the hammer so that they sit tight against the material. You can do the same thing with the rivets if the tongs get too loose; heat them up and hammer the rivet to tighten them. It seems kind of wrong to do the first time. Like a new car, the first scratch is the hardest.
John, this is why I enjoy your channel so much. I don't know of anyone that takes the time to address questions like you do. You were a wealth of information and experience. Thank you for such an insightful class on not only that steel makes the best tongs, but also WHY!
I applaud you on talking the time to pass on your wealth of knowledge. While i know the steels; i know there are new / beginning blacksmiths that need the information.
Thanks.
Thanks for this advice! You did a great job of justifying why your choice is better and I think I agree with you. I've always been really bothered watching people forge rebar, seeing all those lugs get forged down and cringing at the thought of all the cold shuts that must be forming.
I think an additional and very important point that a lot of people overlook is that being a blacksmith gives you a special privilege that almost no other craft has: making and fixing your own tools. If a carpenter warps a saw blade that saw is going straight in the bin, so he or she wants the material that will retain it's original form as long as possible. As a smith, repairing a pair of tongs that have bent a little is trivial, and that goes for most of our tools. So we have the advantage of being able to choose a material that might require repairing or replacing sooner, but which gives us some other benefit over a longer-lasting material.
You are the most reliable source of blacksmithing information. The amateurs make so much problems for us beginners.
I've made maybe 8 or 10 pairs of tongs, all mild steel. I hadn't articulated the reasons as clearly as you do here.. You make a very clear case that for most of us tongs are best made from mild steel. This is an excellent video, thanks!
Listening to you makes me smarter
Can’t tell you how helpful your vids are. Thanks again man
The best job of explaining “why not to use rebar” on the inter web. Great video and an excellent explanation. Thanks again John
The voice of reason and experience , thanks for putting this out there.
I'm so glad I subscribed! Every tutorial I've seen they talk about making out of rebar. You explain everything perfectly! 🙂👍👍👍👍
For any Canadians watching this, A36 is 44W in Canada.
Guilty John, made tongs from reo, none were any good some worse than others! They were among the very first things I made so it was just practice, good for that!
Rebar was the only kind of steel I could get ahold of when I first started - I used it to make various hooks and it was fine for that. Knocking in all the rebar lines was actually great practice for a beginner too. Just don't go trying to make tools out of it!
Thank You, that was very helpful!!
Another good and practical post today bud. Nice solid post.
Answered a lot of questions I had, thanks!
Thanks for the video John. Have a Happy New Year.
Thank you very much John for saying that stuff about rebar. Have fun buddy I am finding this forging is fun and great therapy for me to do. Thank you again buddy you blessed and have been a big help to me.
Thanks John, that has cleared up a lot that i needed to know about steel used in tong making. Mild steel is the go to for me from now on.
Always a pleasure to watch your videos John, once again a very instructive and educational video for use beginners. Thank you.
....you can get any kind of steel as long as it is mild steel... it`s like Henry Ford with the color of the Model T which was black...
again, great tutorial.... many thanks
As a retired plumber, I have made many punches and chisels using 1/2 in, 3/4 in and 1in reo-bar. I even made a concrete chisel out of 1 1/4 in reo bar and it was very good at doing what I wanted and it cost me nothing but a bit of time with the oxy torch, sledge hammer for an anvil and my lump hammer. I quenched it in motor oil and got a nice hard face on it. So I dare say it has a higher carbon than ordinary mild steel.
Nuff Said
When I 1st started I didn't have a forge(I still don't have an anvil), so I took some 1/2" round mild steel and some 1/8" mild steel (sheet), and cut out a few jaw shapes and small flats, then welded together some homemade tongs. I still use them 3 years later for all my heat treating, they work great... Thanks for all the content... have a great day & a Happy New Year, take it easy...
You are master of your craft SIR!
I'm of the same opinion on mild steel for tongs. I personally use rail spikes because it's what I've got, and it's mild enough to take the Nestea plunge a thousand times. Great video!
Wow I wouldn't have thought that. Mild steel?
Ok well that surely simplifies a hole bunch of things.
Thank you mr. John
Blessed days sirSir and happy new year too, Crawford out
Very informative and educational.
Admittedly, I’m lucky to have a great steel service center nearby who has great prices and nice guys who are happy to sell a hobbyist as little as one stick of 1/4” anything. But the lesson learned was that any hot-rolled A36 is a lot cheaper than rebar from the home center. Size for size, a 20 or 24 foot joint can be about the same as 10 feet of rebar...and they cut it free. It’s a no brainer here.
Thank you for the information
I've been shoeing horses now for over forty years and have literally tons of mild steel in old horseshoes. Should work fine for tongs. Had a client one time who insisted on having those comercialy made shoe's hardened. I quenched them in cold water at a yellow heat while he watched. They were barely any harder if at all but it made him happy.
My brothers are concrete masters and I get all the rebar off cuts. Rebar in my area is great and is my go too tong material. Great for hooks and other small projects to practice too.
Stuff you get "for free" is great if you know how to use it.
thank you for the info ...
Excellent
I have learned my lesson from rebar. It hardens just enough. Broke so many tongs I got frustrated and stopped smithing for a while
Thanks for the info. A36 would be cheaper than 1018. That's why I was wondering what you used. Another nice video for the beginner. 👍
Ya know... I'll admit to being one of those who has called Rebar, hotdog steel... I should have known better, and this goes to show a point that James Davis always makes. When 10 uninformed people pass something off as fact the one who knows the truth gets ignored... well.. not exactly, but you all know what I mean...
I'll never trust those 9 out of 10 dentist again! Ask that 10th dentist why he doesn't agree with the others!
The beauty of the Blacksmith trade, is the ability to make your own means. That is to say; create your own tools if you chose to do so. So if you wear out or damage a tool you're self reliant.
Agreed.
I usually make them out of 1.8159 (51CrV4) which is between spring and tool steel. The reason is that at work a lot of heavy duty truck springs incur. I have to say that i have a 165lb air hammer to geht the former springs into shape. One advantage is that i can make the tongs lighter and thinner. one disadvantage is that you can't quench them from higher temperature. For me it's a free source of good steel and i know how to handle the tongs. So it's my way.
Always good information! I have found that there is fairly good quality control over the carbon content of both 1018 cold rolled and A36 hot rolled mild steel. A36 has a smidge more carbon than 1018, but not enough to really matter, and A36 is the least expensive of the two. A36, though, has mill scale that you have to get off for most applications. I just put them in a muriatic acid, aka hydrochloric acid, bath for a few hours and it comes right off. Some, like John here. just tumble their mill scale away. Grinding is too much work. John, did you see the pic of the strange (to me) photo I sent of the hammer head or top set type tool to you?
Thanks! Jerry
tank you
Always so much great information on your channel John:-) keep up the great work
Hello John, I would like to suggest an idea that you should make the skates on ice skates. I know Christmas is over but winter is just starting. I am a huge fan of your work. Please respond back to me and give me any feedback you have. Thank You !
Same, mild steel all the way)
I just finished making my first set of tongs and I used rebar. So far I really enjoy them and they work perfect for me. Not bad for a first time forging.
I just made my first pair of tongs out of rebar as well lol. They work pretty good. I plan on making rebar tongs every 6 months or so just to see how I'm progressing (and I got a bunch of free rebar lol)
I have booker rod. ( threaded rod ) for construction tie downs. I think it's mild steel? It's 10 mm thick. Can I use this material? It definitely bends easier than Rebar or Steel Reo! ( in Australia). I hope I'm making sense? Any reply appreciated cheers ! 🙂👍👍👍
👍👍👍👍
There are charts for the constituents. Numbers and letters on the rebar.
Would you consider rail spikes the same as rebar? We have lots of old ones out in the field next to the abandoned rail tracks from long ago. Some of the waste steel may be good for playing with as I just received a forge and now I’m ready to begin hitting hot metal. Time to put the lessens watched into practice. Now the learning begins. It is a beginning.
They are generally an unknown steel and not all spikes are the same, so in that regard I would say yes. However since they don't have the lugs waiting to be forged into cold shuts, they are better in that regard.
It's my understanding that there are rail spikes marked with "HC" on the head that are higher carbon (.20 - .30%) and can be hardened in water. But I've also read that there are other markings used in the past for these HC spikes and it not quite that simple. They are often used to make first knives and would probably need to be tempered to resisted cracking. My observations with these HC spikes is that they takes some force to move around so I personally, also a beginning smith, would avoid spikes and just use mild steel as John recommends. My 2 cents. Happy forging. Also see: www.bladeforums.com/threads/head-markings-and-carbon-content-of-railroad-spikes.343476/
One tool making video I would like to see is how to make a filling clamp for the vice like what is hanging between the windows above and to your right of your shoulder right shoulder in this video
ua-cam.com/video/GzaS7_z0Gbs/v-deo.html
John speaking of mild steal, is A36 a hot roll steel as opposed to 1018 cold roll? Also is it cheaper than 1018. Being a machinist I always
Have used 1018 because it is cold roll. Different
Trades different strokes I guest.
I use them interchangeably and only buy cold roll when I need the precise size or something isn't available in hot roll. The hot roll is generally cheaper and once you forge it they all look the same.
So I should not use railroad spikes? I mean they are medium carbon so they must harden a little. I like the way the metal behaves when forging with it.
If you do be careful about quenching them when the get hot. Mild steel can get red hot and still be quenched in water so you can get right back to work
Hi, John! When you use the term mild steel, are we talking about what the local hardware store sells, labeled as hot rolled, or cold rolled?
Generally, yes. But I can't always say for sure what some stores might carry. I use the term mild steel for non hardenable steel such as A36 hot roll or 1018 hot roll. Unless they specify that you're buying spring steel or tool steel, it should be mild steel.
@@BlackBearForge Awesome! Thanks so much for the response! I love your videos, your teaching style, etc. I am part if the forum, and very much appreciate all you do! You have a loyal follower, sir!
After trying to figure out the composition of some one inch round rebar, I was left feeling pretty frustrated. There doesn't seem to be much information on line that covers anything more than the most standard stuff. In two hours of searching I could only find one vague reference to what I think I had acquired. I ended up using your "old school" approach for testing out unknown steel. Turns out that it could be hardened. My question would be, is there some source of information where you can find the compositions of the specialty rebars as well as the more standard stuff?
I have seen an ID chart but don't know where to go look for it.
John, I know you consider 1018 to be different from "mild steel" such as A36. What are your thoughts on tongs out of 1018? I can only get a few sizes/shapes of A36 from the supplier I use, and none are convenient for tongs. I have not had any issues so far with 1018 tongs, but I am curious if you think there will be any besides the fact that 1018 is a bit harder to work than A36.
1018 would be fine. But it does usually cost quite a bit more
@@BlackBearForge Thanks. Around here A36 is only available at places that cater to those with high usage. Except the few sizes the place I buy from carries, 1018 is cheaper for me. At about $1 per foot for 3/8 square it is not worth fussing about cost for a pair of tongs if it will not have problems since I use quite a bit of that anyway.
Thank you for some common sense knowledge. I've always questioned the use of alloy steel in tongs. It did not make sense to me.
When searching information about this exact information about a half year ago I ran into the same problem. Mostly people parroting the opinion of other blacksmiths that alloy X should be used (lots of different opinions too), but no informed answer. People rarely question their own ways, nor do they question their teachers/masters. Once they learn a way, they stick to it. What are the material properties, what is the intended use? Yes mild steel can deform more easily, but you have to be a real jerk. And once a quenched alloy get hit by a hammer it's gone.
So yeah, it's sad that lots of people forgo thinking and just parrot other opinions. If you really want to have some fun, try searching for knife steel opinions versus facts. The amount of bullshit is huuuuge :D (and yes the wikipedia page is also filled with mostly opinions and opinionated references)
There are certainly times when alloy steels are preferred. But for the new smith, I think sticking with mild steel tongs is the best bet.
I am a beginner forger, but have 40 years experience as a steel fabricator and seller. So FYI, mild steel is a non specific material, while A-36 is made to specific designations such as how much it is reduced (physical property) ...and certain specific chemistry (chemical property) . They are not the same. I think (my observation) that "mild steel, for the most part, started out as A-36, but did not meet either the chemical or physical properties and could not be designated as A-36 ( which is a structural steel). Mild steel is not of structural quality.
How much steel do you need to use to make tongs wether in flat square or round stock
Lots of variables go into that answer. But its probably less than you might think. Look at some of my specific tong making videos. I give material sizes in most of those
I have forged 1018 and A36 or cold and hot rolled steels. Somehow A36 always seems a bit tougher to work yet it is supposed to be the same. I am guessing than 1018 is sold in the annealed state while A36 is not, but if non hardening, well that makes no sense. As a beginner maybe this is all in my imagination. One thing is certain, railroad spikes are my favorite and are supposed to be something like 1013 steel.
1018 is a more reliable and probably softer material. A36 just has to meet a range of properties and can vary. Many rail spikes are a medium carbon steel
Hi John, is mild steel hot rolled?
yes it is
Can you explain to me, tong clips? Thanks, joe
ua-cam.com/video/xYbBFnLRU7c/v-deo.html
so whats better flat bar round or square
Round forges easier, but square helps keep your turns at true 90s.
I wish I could get a pattern for that tong blank I'd cut some out with my plasma cutter
I'm afraid I don't have a digital pattern, But if you forge the first one you will then have a pattern to use for more.
What type of tongs will do the most amount of work??? If you know can you make a pair.
The best type of tongs is entirely dependent on the work you are doing and what size material you are using. There is no good one pair does everything option
Isn't 1018 mild steel?
Its a good substitute, but 1018 is a specific steel where as mild steel meets a specific standard. While the deference is subtle, It isn't the same and mild steel can have more variations than 1018 to still meet its standard.
Although It seems like an internet search may have some differing thoughts.
Mild steel is a generic term for any low carbon steel (Between about .05 and .3% carbon). A36 and 1018 are two of the most common varieties in the US. For most applications, they are interchangeable, but A36 is generally cheaper because it almost exclusively hot rolled, where 1018 is usually cold rolled. If you're machining a part, you'll probably want 1018, but for almost anything else A36 will work just fine
What’s the cost of a pair of tongs you make
I don't make tongs for sale.
@@BlackBearForge ok thank you
Suckered rod?
Sucker rod. The connecting rod fro, an above ground pump head to the well pump. Usually found in oil wells
15 years as a structural welder fab man i tell people all the time make your damn tongs from mild its cheap its available and you have no clue whats in rebar even if its labeled hcrb!
I have to disagree with you about your understanding of rebar.
There are different grades of rebar, for bridges I’m sure they use some pretty high quality rebar, in sky scrapers it’s code to use stainless steel rebar. (I live next to a stainless steel mill that makes nothing but rebar for sky scrapers)
But run of the mill rebar that most people who aren’t in the construction industry have access to is pretty inconsistent stuff.
It is a misconception that simply because it has specifications that it is a precise material. It certainly does have specifications it has to match, but the tolerances on those specs is much wider than on mild steel and especially tool steel.
I have experienced first hand rebar being inconsistent in a single bar of it, one portion of the bar being significantly harder than other portions.
First!
Dang it. Lol
Just luck. Had it open and got the notice. Usually never happens for me.
Do you benefit at all by being first? Just curious. Not trying to be a smart ass. Happy New Year
Only the prestige of being so!
@@bryanrobinson1980 ok I gotcha! Thanks for replying!
So your saying rebar tongs are pretty good😀 kidding don't delete me.