What I find interesting is that if people aren't falling into the categories she is talking about why are so many in the comments taking offense?(/gen). For example the grocery market comment. I am neruo-spicy, but I understand that multiple things can be true simultaneously. For example, a person who is wearing makeup and tight clothes to the market, "specificity" to look good in the male gaze, who is actively upholding the patriarchy is completely different from someone who is wearing tight clothes and makeup for themselves for their own fulfillment and enjoyment/comfortability ( this can overlap it can be female gaze but it could also at times be male gaze) But if you are partaking in anything male gaze fundamentally it is neurotypical regardless if you doing it for yourself or not ( and that's okay!). The people she is specifically talking about are not. The neurotypical or neurodivergent ppl who choose to do things for themselves she was "specifically" talking about neurotypicals who uphold a certain way of life and if you don't fall within it you're cast out. Idk I feel like a lot of people missed her entire point or maybe I'm just not understanding lol, I thought it was established that these statements in the video were not binary but could overlap and she was talking about a specific group of people that is typically ( maybe) the majority that are in these particular aesthetics or mainstreams(its entirely possible for you to be apart of this group but non of this apply to you). If you're wearing makeup and tight clothes because you love it that's great! I hope its safe to say that Irene would encourage individuality expression and what makes you happy. (As I would myself) The group of ppl she's talking about don't, in fact, there would be nothing individual about following a trend to a point that it affects your judgment of society. However, there is no way physically any of us can tell these things about ppl in the wild by looking at them, hence the conversation, but if you were to interact with said individuals in the wild you'd quickly get your answer. I don't think its meant to divide the two or say one is bad and the other isn't, it was to show the differences between the two. Neuro-divergents; for the most part will mostly be themselves but also some neurodivergents may struggle because they uphold a neuro-typical value system. Neurotypicals will mostly follow the norm, BUT some neurotypicals value individuality more, hence why in the end what she said about fundamentally attracting people to you makes sense it can be both groups. I think if she wasn't talking about you in particular and you took offense to what she said there is a lot to unpack there(/gen). I myself have gone out dressed up before to do casual things but I didn't take offense because she wasn't talking about me. I do things when I want to not to uphold a system. So ppl who are like me or in my category don't count cause she isnt talking about us...( us as in neurotypicals and neurodivergent who are just themselves all the time) I hope this makes sense, all love
seems like you have a specific type of person in mind that you call "neurotypical people" but are actually just very image-focused people. they may be NT or ND. i know many ND people that seek out relationships based on the values you are describing (financial/social security etc.)
i´ve met the nicest people with a very "basic style" and some mean people with a more "alternative" style. i think style doesn't define your personality or if you're neurodivergent, maybe people that dress with more colors or "different" could be more creative but that doesn't mean they're neurodivergent. also... being on the spectrum doesn't make you automatically nice. anyway, i dont think you're completely wrong, this is just my opinion.
I agree. Sometimes I dress “male gazey” not because I have a high ego, or crave male validation but because I like how it looks . Sometimes I dress in a neurodivergent gaze way. I do not want to be judged or have my character analysed based on my aesthetic that day. Especially when they don’t even know me that’s not fair at all.
In my personal opinion, I feel that aesthetics have not only ruined the internet and social media, but also how people are expected to carry out their daily lives on a general basis.
Aesthetics are for sure a double-edged sword. On one hand they allow for a lot more creativity and variability in fashion that before wouldn’t have been acceptable, but on the other hand they have become so much more than just a means of expressing a style. They’ve morphed into personalities and stereotypes and it just seems to be getting worse.
@@riyakumar8932idk about what OP specifically meant, but a ton of people into fashion think that by creating various labels for different fashion aesthetics, you are putting people in boxes and restricting fashion statements to a set of rules, instead of developing their own unique fashion style & learning how to style & pair things based on what the person themselves like, as opposed to what the “aesthetic” says to wear, which often creates cookie cutter outfits that claim to be original and unique, but lack originality and creativity.
@@riyakumar8932 This is by NO MEANS a bad thing at all! A lot of people like to participate in fashion without having to think about it, regardless of labels such as “basic” and “alt” and whatever other label you use, I think it is totally fine to follow trends if gives you a sense of ease. Many people like to partake in most art forms without being “original” or “unique” and if you’re often striving for those, you might up end up unhappy bc nobody can be truly unique. HOWEVER “aesthetics” can take away from that personal touch of creativity / self expression as we(the internet) put people into these boxes and even worse, restrict the things people CAN wear based on a fictional, often fluid set of “rules” people have to follow to fit the label. Labels are great in the way that you can connect with others and build a community, but with ANY community, sometimes it can get out of hand
As an autistic girl I prefer the left side of the thumbnail. I like it simple, comfy and feeling attractive. I would probably wear something like what Kylie is wearing. And that’s the reason why people never believe me when I say I’m autistic. The right side is just too much for me. The colors, the hair, the clothes, the texture, the makeup even just thinking about doing all that freaks me out. I hate jewelry, anything touching my body tbh, I could never spend so much time on my hair or makeup. That’s why I’m also high maintenance I like it clean and simple. Even my room looks like a hospital room. Everything in white and I only have one bed and one desk. Maybe it’s because I was always overstimulated in my childhood having a mom with adhd and being undiagnosed for a long time
I don’t see people wearing anime shirts or collecting figures as any less capitalistic as lululemon/beige preferring people. It’s all a lot of products, just to different interests. Maybe I’m missing something. I liked the observations about values, that some are more about extrinsic values and appearance while others care more about intrinsic values and compatibility. I don’t quite understand the gazes or the general trends/dichotomies pointed out though. This was an interesting video, thank you for sharing your thoughts (and for the 4 takes it took).
For that section, it’s not about whether each product/interest is intrinsically more or less capitalistic. Rather, it’s about the difference in societal perceptions around the product and how that connects to the individual with it. So, for example, a person with an anime figure might have more neurodivergent values by the way that the stereotypically nerdy and negative connotations given to the person by having said anime figure are less important than the intrinsic joy the figure brings to that individual. It’s a sense of caring more about their authentic expression and self than the societal perception and assimilation that a neurotypical person might value. That said there is a separate comment to be made about how so called neurotypical values and behaviours interact with and perhaps benefit from the larger capitalistic context that we live in, thus being “more capitalistic” or more suited to capitalism in a sense, which is where you may have gotten muddled. Hope this helps!😅
The capitalism argument comes from the fact that some people buy things just because they enjoy them and then some people buy things because they will give them more capital, monetary or social. Stereotypical "pretty mean girls" will use their beauty as a capital to gain popularity, a boyfriend who gives them connections and money, friends who give them connections and or expensive trips, media attention, something in return that can benefit them externally, objectively. They then will use this social capital to gain more money or social status or something that would make them money such as fame, exposure, endorsement, etc. And in capitalism, social status is a very powerful tool and if you don't have it you will not succeed. This is why NTs are so susceptible to marketing. Because by buying the thing that you see other people buying, you are being indirectly associated with that person and can use this connection to climb the social and economic ladder. Whereas a ND person typical buys things just because they like it, regardless of what they gain externally gain from it. NDs usually do not care what they gain externally. They care more about the internal, emotional reward.
I don’t think it’s about the consumption, but rather the value that’s placed in being able to achieve social capital through your looks. Dressing a bit more revealing and beige could possibly indicate either an alignment with those values or not having needed to think about how you are presenting, which is more of a neurotypical thing. I think the argument here is that neurodivergent people have needed to think about their presentation so much just to be able to fit in that many have been able to determine what it is that they like and wish to express, which is the argument behind the colorful clothes, which clearly requires more thought to put in than just following the status quo
from wut i gathered it was more about bein able to tell wut the person is interested in and how to decipher potential personality based off of wut they like rather than how much they bought contributes to capitilism
while i mostly agree with the video i do find the whole concept of the "female gaze" kind of annoying and patronizing ("oh all women are emotionally and socially oriented and only value artsy soft pretty things") , and the concept of a neurodivergent vs neurotypical gaze almost made me want to click off the video. maybe there's a better way to phrase this?
the term the "male gaze" was coined to describe a specific phenomenon on how women were portrayed in media, as if there was a straight man constantly "gazing" upon them. it wasn't really just a term to describe what men see as attractive, so the subsequent uses of "female gaze" in commentary feel like it's missing the point. i do think the idea that certain aesthetics in the modern era are favored by certain types of people is absolutely valid, however, although i think it's less about specific styles of fashion as it is fitting in/ vs not fitting in to the broadest common denominator of what is in style, and as styles will shift it's possible so will what the "neurodivergent gaze" and "neurotypical gaze" is (english isn't my native language i hope i'm making sense)
Sometimes I dress with the male gaze in mind but sometimes with the male gays in mind. Sometimes I dress with the female gaze in mind but sometimes I dress with the female gays in mind. However, I always dress how I feel in the moment.
It seems like you're making an association between ND and a strong self identity. Which, I dunno, would you agree with that? Could the distinctions you noticed be less about NT vs ND, and more about different conceptions of self? For what it's worth, I have quite a weak sense of self, and I dress for invisibility.
I agree with you. Neurotypical people who are firm in their self-identity are also comfortable with showing up as their authentic selves; they'll break away from established norms and trends. They might not do it the same way that neurodivergent people do, and I'd be interested in seeing the similarities and differences. I also think that maturity plays a role in how you present yourself to others. The example Irene shared about being invited out and then getting ostracized because she didn't participate in all the social activities says a lot about the social and emotional maturity of that friend group -- not necessarily about them being neurotypical.
My youngest (20) is ND and has a real low confidence but dresses boldly, to make people think they're tough. I've known so many insecure ppl who dressed differently and it was like their "armour" if you know what I mean. Not just a statement of who they are.
If you're ND and have a weak sense of self and dress for invisibility, that sounds like you've been masking so long you don't know what you actually like and you dress "normal" so that people don't single you out and target you. That's not the same thing as an NT dressing to blend in. When NT's dress to blend in, they blend in specifically to increase their social status.
@@katherinedipierro8383 Okay, but the fact that that is a textbook example of how immature NTs act, doesn't change that fact that they are NT. NT and ND operate on two separate wavelengths. "Emotionally mature" NT women from my experience are just better at hiding their judgment, because they know they will be judged if they judge someone outwardly. Emotionally mature NT women are not gonna wanna all of a sudden be friends with an ND woman if they have nothing to gain from her. Like the way they work is so fundamentally different from NT, emotional maturity does not explain these stark differences in behavior between the two groups, NT and ND that happens at ALL age groups and so called "maturity levels". "Maturity levels" also seem arbitrary to me. An immature NT woman is going to be mean. An immature ND woman is most often going to be overly friendly and not understand why others don't like her. A mature NT woman is going to get better at hiding her judgment. A mature ND woman finally understands that her brain works differently from the other girls and maybe why. Two separate worlds.
As a neurodivergent who tends toward neurotypical aesthetics simply because theyre less overstimulating visually, im sick of getting unwarranted judgment and hate from other neurodivergents who cant recognize that I'm just prioritizing my pragmatic functionality over conforming to their unspoken aesthetic rules. There are so many layers to the neurodivergent vs neurotypical gaze that i dont think it can accurately be boiled down into such dichotomous conclusions
@@bedhead-studio frustrating is such a good word for it. but all the more reason for us to give zero fux and lean into our own ways of expressing ourselves visually
Ok the tik tok that got you thinking about this topic just rubs me the wrong way. Especially since I have met tons of mean loud color wearing people and nice cliche trendy outfit wearing people. In my personal autistic experience, people come in many forms. Though I DO see what she was trying to do here. If you asked me when i was in high school, i would have wholeheartedly agreed cause the "mean girls" in this tiktok look like the girls who would mock and bully me back in high school and the "nice girls" would be the ones who I hung out with. This is a very interesting topic Irene and really got me thinking!
i totally agree. i think it’s more that so many people use clothes as like a show of status and the beige stuff is a classic way to do that. but i do think the colorful shit can be used in a similar way especially in a more progressive environment. idk if i worded that well i hope that made sense 😭😭
@@joy0953 I'm saying that clothes do not always dictate whether a person is "good" or "bad". The second part pointed out that I do understand where this line of thinking comes from. Me in high school would have agreed based on my experiences of that time. Me now has a completely different perspective based on further experience meeting different kinds of people. Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original comment. Hope this clears it up!
When I'm contacted by the neurotypical gaze, I feel like I'm being weighed and measured. Judged. The neurodivergent gaze is usually happy to meet another neurodivergent gaze.
Quit caring about aesthetics. Wear what you like. I hate the internet & what it’s done to style. I’m 40, thank god I’m done with any of this shit. But young girls, be free & live your life, think for yourself & know you don’t need to follow trends. You all are just losing yoursevles in the black hole abyss of online. Tragic
22:33 Girlieee nooo, that's exactly the opposite. I dress up extra(like Chappell Roan level) wherever I go cause that's me, it's completely opposite of appealing to the male gaze walking into anything like it's a high fashion show. I would rather die than be casual anywhere. And it's not uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable and awkward if I don't do it.
The social bartering concept is mind blowing. It’s a great explanation for why I just can’t seem to click with certain people. We’re both trying to get something out of this interaction but what we’re looking for is not available and they don’t accept your currency in this store. Neither party is necessarily right or wrong. It’s just not meant to be
ig i always knew this but didnt have the words to properly describe it other than "vibes" i can usually vibe enough w ppl to have a decent convo if we're coworkers, but sometimes its not enough to become friends. some ppl will take offense but personally i dont mind since ik i can be p eccentric to alotve neurotypical ppl
Honestly, I do not agree with a lot of the things you said. I do think that the compatibility between different people relies heavily on how much you let a person take part in your life on a personal level. Wether that may be through experiences you share or the experience you take with you into that relationship to grow and build from each other. I do understand you were heavily generalising everything like you disclaimed. But I just think that making a Box of what is deemed neurodivergent and neurotypical just defeats the whole point of being neurodivergent at the first place. It is not about the way you dress for the male or female or any gaze. Neither is it about what you value from another person. I can wear high heels and a miniskirt and heavy makeup and all that for the male gaze and still be neurodivergent! I don’t get where that generalisation even comes from? I also think that it’s not really about your neurodivergence that makes you do more of this and that. Like it’s called neurodivergent for a reason. I can have adhd and autism and still have all the „symptoms“ and „signs“ a neurotypical person would have. It’s all about diversity inside our brains functioning system after all. And also… I’m not saying any of this in any negative light towards you whatsoever!!! I simply mean to put the very unnecessary and for me a little bit hurtful generalisations to an end and say in simple words: do what makes you feel fulfilled! If it’s on a superficial level of trying to appeal to the male gaze or not…that’s still my decision at the end of the day. I chose that for myself, because it benefits my very bad circumstances that I have grown up in. A lot of people have put themselves into this situation because… in the end it’s still a man’s world. And I know it adds to the problem and in every way I wish I could just live for myself. But my life and most of the lives of people i know heavily depend on appealing to the male gaze.
I sometimes feel embarrassed when I’m dressed up at the grocery store, I think people will assume I dressed up to show off at the grocery store. But really I just find it hard to get the energy to go to the store, so I tack it on after a more fun activity to make it easier since I have the momentum of being out already.
same. i wear wild outfits when im out running errands. if people don’t like it, idgaf lmfao maybe they could learn something from me and stop being so bland 😌
Its really tough, I'm constantly torn between dressing up and not because I fear judgement from both sides, I think overall I prefer underdressed though bcuz less visual stimulation and less notice 😅
i agree with you. contrary to what irene says about people who dress up for casual situations, i am dressing up for myself to motivate myself to get out of the house and feel happy in how i present myself (self-authentication), not to cater to the gaze of other people. For the record, I am somewhere between the two sides on the thumbnail.
I'll be honest, I really disagree here with a lot of the original videos you show here. Some of the meanest, least empathetic people I've met fit the "neurodivergent" vibe. The people I've met who have brightly dyed hair, wear loud boisterous outfits etc have been way too hard-headed and self-centred. My personal experience is almost entirely converse to what you describe in this video
If you get a mean girl who craves attention, has pretty privilege, and an extroverted personality, the neurodivergent aesthetic can often be adopted by them because it’s a conversation starter or a “not like other girls” approach. I’ve also ran into this breed of mean girl
A topic that would be good to talk about more... (mean knowingly and unknowingly) neurotypical ppl and how they extract from/target neurodivergent ppl for their own benefit/image.
It makes perfect sense for some ‘’mean girls’’ to do that because they think in what gives them value, and what they could get out of things with others. Dressing for the neurodivergent gaze as a neurotypical, may trick others into thinking that you are ‘’open-minded’’ and have really developed your sense of self. But since they are only used that the ‘’outter shell’’ works, the cracks begin to show when they try to befriend neurodivergent people. Because they are (surprise surprise) by far not only interested in how someone looks.
I'm the same, I was in an 'alternative' friend group in school AND THEY were the ones who ostracised me when they didn't like me anymore, not the 'normal' girls. Obviously this is anecdotal but it's my experience throughout all of my life
I can only wear athletic clothes becase tight clothes help my sensory issues. Also, my special interest is fitness so I like to be able to move at all times. I’m not mean though
There are so many quirky and colorful people that are actually mean. Colorful and quirky CAN be a way to self express, but it can also be a way to shallowly signal to those around you that you are, rebellious, artistic, divergent, free thinking etc. While you're really just putting on a persona to fit in. Status looks different in different social circles, so people that play for status rather than being their authentic selves can dress however, if they think that it will give them status among a certain group of people. People will try to look like a misfit to try to belong in the same way that people will try to look 'normal' in order to belong. Being 'punk' is inherently about not conforming to social norms, but the irony about that is that when everybody is punk nobody is and when everybody has opinions that are a bit out there, the 'normal' becomes the non conformist. Another paradox is that the people that try to appear quirky and colorful are some times very mean to people like you, because they've made it their personality to be different, so when somebody who dresses for the 'male gaze' has a more developed personality they can't stand it.
Exactly i don't get why we have to be put into stereotypes like that, it's actually very invalidating, because i dress like the "mean girl aesthetic", well sometimes anyways and i'm literally neurodivirgent, when will people learn that the world is not as stereotypical as they make it out to be.
NO SAMEW lmfao, for me both aspects in terms of gaze overlap for me so much. i used to not care about how i dressed as a teen but to the point where i would underdress for specific events, so i got insecure about it as i approached my 20’s. i know it sounds like i’ve outgrown it but many people my age today dress the exact same as i did back then yk
As a ND teacher, I try pretty hard to dress towards the "NT" style in order to look more "professional", but most of the time I end up wearing a lot of clothes that have the "ND" style.
Hey I see where a lot of this is going and I’m a little stuck on your story of not being invited out. As a ND person who would usually rather have a potluck with close friends and not go clubbing, I don’t think it’s accurate that they treated you badly I think the activities were just not compatible to you. Being very honest, if I invited someone out and they showed up late, didn’t want to do the activity we had planned, and then left early I Would assume they didn’t like me and didn’t want to hang out. That feels very bad from the other side.
IKR. I also didn't get those tiktoks when the lady talked how the women dressed in bright clothes or with brightly dyed hair looked kind and approachable to her and women dressed in muted tones were the opposite. I knew people judged based on appearance but I didn't expect it to be this black and white. :D
Right side caught my eye first. Shame I'm from the all-black (no separating laundry), same 3 outfits, same hair, same makeup part of the spectrum that would lose all executive function for the day from being put together and couldn't cope with anyone looking at me in an eyecatching outfit 😭
@@toni2309one of my styles has been called comfy goth. I call it edgy librarian lol. I love seeing people wear harnesses and metal belts, but boy does it seem like too much for me to wear.
this conversation is mind boggling to me because I don't understand dressing for gazes. It makes me feel like a product. People also forget that especially for NDs, it's about the actual feeling. So many people have commented in times I don't like wearing bras, as if its attention grabbing or flusy. When in actuality I have chronic pain, lifting them up to my chin doesn't help, and I get easily hot and suffocated in fabric/wire. The same reasoning goes for flowing pieces to breathe, or hugging athleisure when it's cold. There's a level to style but if I have to live in a body that's oversensitive, im surely not dressing in stiff pants or blazers to appeal to any gaze- male or female/neurotypical or neurodivergent. if I can even get out of the house feeling comfortable then that should be good enough
I relate in a different way! I dress because I see my identidy in the way I express myself and my clothing style. So I can go from one end of the spectrum to the other depending on my mood, but that mood isnt based on who I want to attract or anything. I just wear what makes me feel happy.
Don't worry too much about it. Most everyday people aren't that concerned with this stuff. Sure there's situations where you're supposed to wear certain clothing. business clothes for an office job, black for a funeral, but this obsession with gazes and fashion trends stuff only affects a certain portion of society and they aren't the sort of people you'd want to know anyway.
I literally have a test - the "high kick test" for any skirts or pants I wear (I'm Audhd) if I can't do a high kick comfortably, then I ain't wearing it. Do I do high kicks often in life? No. But I must always be ready for side quests! And bras are evil.
I'm very similar to you! I dress tp express my inside (colorful, whimsical, nature, fairy, magical) and at the same time I dress for function and comfort (loose fitting, breathable, comfy, etc).
I was loving this until it came to the beige part. I'm autistic and I had a beige phase a few years ago in the past with decorating my room (yes before it was trendy to) because multi colors would overstimulate me to no end. But with that being said, I'd say the beige aesthetic now is associated with millennials rather than neurotypicals but there of course are always exceptions. I don't think that strips them of their personality though...
As an autistic woman I feel super uncomfortable in bright colours. Black also tends to be seen as a poetic & magical colour, which also fits into the neurodivergent side.
22:13 I have to respectfully disagree. I want to acknowledge that you said you would be making massive generalizations, but this one struck me wrong. While it could be for the male gaze, it could equally be a valid form of self-expression. I mean, imagine if all these descriptions were applied to a Drag-queen instead of a straight passing woman in a grocery store. That shit would be fuckin epic, even if it's impractical, uncomfortable, or even uncalled for. Yes, a woman would likely attract some male attention as a result of being so glamorous, but still we need to be cognizant of our assumptions of others. Our assumptions of others, our assumptions of those we don't know, says more about ourselves and our experiences. It's not a bad thing, per se. It can be protective, but unchecked our assumptions can easily become the rationale behind toxic stereotypes and not recognizing the individuality of an individual. No matter how similarly things may seem. When it comes to others, we just see an aesthetic. And while an aesthetic says something, it doesn't have any meaningful connection to someone's values- or what you (or I) assume their values to be. Should it even mean to us if it is a Drag queen, a queer woman or a cis-het woman is at the grocery store, DMV, or the movies dressed in ways that makes them feel beautiful or confident? Even if it doesn't particularly match the occasion? I mean I still wear hoodies and pants in 90 degree weather ( sensory issues, but many people assume it's insecurities. Naw dude, I'm just trying to be my version of comfortable and not to tweak out 😭) If you saw me in a hoodie in the middle of summer, clearly not dressed practically, what assumptions would you make about me? Do your assumptions even hold weight? It's all the same I'm just trying to say, it doesn't have to be about the male gaze or even anyone else- even if it fits the male gaze. Oftentimes, it makes me uncomfortable to have people staring at me when I'm dressed in a way of self-expression. I doesn't mean I'm not confident, but it also doesn't mean I want extra attention. I feel confident because I am choosing to authentically express myself and my self-care, not because people give a shit how I look. My confidence and joy comes before the attention, the attention is a byproduct. It depends heavily on my energy level, but sometimes I want to get dress-up and experiment even for mundane tasks because I will *NEVER* dress up otherwise. That makes me sad because I never get the opportunity to externalize 😭 I don't dress up when I invite people over. I don't go to the club or parties. I haven't been to an event in 2 years (it was a wedding), and I can't dress up at home alone because then I can't lay down or be cozy I'll fuck up everything I've done. I, and I assume many others, only intend to enjoy our means of self-expression/care So, (with love, I'm not mad lol) let us have our grocery glam/exotic/expression moment goddammit 😭 And I know it's not all about the grocery store, or camping, or whatever I said earlier. It's just that I believe if we're not careful, we can neglect experiences that have brought others to express themselves in such ways that we may not relate to, leading us to become the truly superficial ones. If my girl can go hiking in glam (pray for her ankles), I say huzzah lol. That's something to be celebrated. Because a part of the "male gaze" is also assuming "it's"(whatever "it" is) about men, or male centered thinking. :) I could go on, but I don't mean to ramble. All the best ❤
omg irene never fails to make videos addressing and articulating things i’ve always thought about but never seen discussed anywhere, i’m so eager for this one
Being disabled and neurodivergent, I definitely get screwed over in transactional relationships. My currency is completely different. It doesn’t mean it’s bad. I offer a lot of hard won wisdom from going through a lot of hardship and trauma in my life, a lot of empathy, etc. But I can’t drive, I don’t have much money because I’m on disability, I can’t do things where I need to walk or stand a lot. But what I offer is often devalued.
This is bringing back so many memories of college for me. Specifically a party I wish I’d never gone to. I thought these girls were almost friends with me, like I was so close that I could be their friend with a little more work. So when I found out the girl I was closest to was having her 21st birthday party and I had never been invited I was a little sad. But as she and another girl talked about it on the bus next to me, I sat silently until I got an invite after I congratulated the girl. But something felt off. Like I wasn’t meant to be invited and only was because I overheard about the party. But I went anyway. The girls wouldn’t even look at me, and when they did it was with that judging up-and-down my body stare like I was wearing something ridiculous. Like I was gross or embarrassing. All of the men at the party were super nice. I think this is when I started to seek out male friendships and older women over young women friends. There wasn’t this same exchange or value system based on my appearance. Granted, I doubt any of the guys saw me as a romantic interest at all, so that would probably have drastically changed how they treated me. But they just treated me like a normal person at a party. (Except for one drunk guy who hit on me and I didn’t like him-especially once he realized I wasn’t interested and avoided me just like the girls did). These “mean girls” didn’t dress like the stereotype but they were also in the honors program and had that other type of social value. I’ve seen it throughout my life as I tend to end up in groups with highly intelligent or overly praised for their brains people and often there are girls who have an academic vibe but are also not nerdy and are incredibly mean.
Girl the story of the friends never inviting you out again after saying no thanks to things... hits hard. My college roommate and I were good friends until she got mad I wouldn't do illegal stuff 🤧 with the group and then I got upset bc they wouldn't let me THE SOBER ONE drive us home after the club and she literally almost wrecked. Haven't heard from her since but I definitely deserve an apology for putting my life in danger like that. And I went home in the middle of the night during the last sleepover I went to. Still friends with her but she won't let me forget I dipped out bc I needed to sleep in my own bed 🙃
A real friend wouldn't get upset about or keep bringing up a situation where you had to take yourself out of an uncomfortable situation and would respect your boundaries to begin with
Dude I had a friend who took me out to a cool playground she found. I had no idea where it was and when we got there, I had no idea how to get back home. She then decided she wanted to drive (we were on bikes) to her horse that was like half an hour away. I asked her if she can being me home first cause I wanted to go home but had no idea where to go. She didn't want to and told me to either go with her or she would leave me here alone. She apparently did this with my other friend aswell who ended up having to ask strangers for directions cause our "friend" just left her stranded. Some people are just so fucking selfish
I never understand why some people need to pressure someone into doing illegal activities. Drinking, smoking etc. ofc they're technically not illegal, but I've been in situations where my "friends" would tell me that I have to do it alongside with them... "If you don't do think then I won't be friends with you" makes me so upset.
as someone w anxiety based insomnia that last bit about needin to sleep in ur own bed is SO real! i literally cant fall asleep if its not my own bed(ik this bc my parents were divorced and every weekend i would have to sleep at my Gmas house, bc my dad lived w her, and barely get any sleep)
I have to wear neutral athleisure because the colorful and bold clothes wash me out and feel overstimulating. I think this is more about personal style and style essence than the neurodivergent gaze. I'm just not attracted to vibrant colors in clothing or my home. It hurts my eyes a little bit. I think you can still tell a lot about me based on things other than my ability to enjoy what to you feels like self-expression but to me feels like visual clutter. Also, I’m not sure I understand the connection between the male gaze vs the female gaze and the neurodivergent gaze vs the neurotypical gaze. I’m probably just not educated enough on what those mean in this context. I would love to see another video where you dive deeper into what you mean by each term and the assumptions we’d need to make in order to understand the connection.
I also think that as neurodiverse people that we perhaps somehow still have a stronger connection to our inner child and that this influences our 'gaze'. Children are naturally expressive with their interests, whether that's animals or certain toys or clothes or arts and crafts, and they will make it an obvious part of their lives and/or style/decor. As I've progressed in my unmasking journey, I have noticed I've gone back to some childhood interests/joys that I had lost, like writing (bc fantasy) and scrapbook journalling (bc crafting) and circle skirts (bc feeling like a princess).
Like someone above said we do retain neural connections that neurotypicals have pruned after childhood, also we have much higher levels of endogenous DMT than a NT, and I'm sure that helps our creativity and whimsy ...
I'm confused as to who came up with this concept.... Neurodivergent and I can go from wearing one color to wearing 3 different prints at a time . I go from wanting my space to be minimal to the complete opposite end my days a lot of people are intimidated by because a lot of people think either I'm angry or deep in thought my head down eyes up 🤷🏻... Again it generalizing like you you said ....I do however believe there's a clear definition between the female gaze and the male gaze for sure
I personally really enjoy getting dressed up, even for sometimes inappropriate situations. I overdress a lot lol. The process, the result, etc., it’s a special interest. but I don’t typically do it to “look good enough.” I often like wearing a pencil skirt to a job where I can get away with jeans just because I can. It’s for me. But if I’m not feeling it I wear the jeans.
Idk, I differ from you in that I’m neurodivergent as well, but I value what my partner’s goals are and what he does for work just as much as his personality, quirks, and how we connect with each other. I think it’s because I’ve made my special interest into my job, and I’m very goal-oriented when it comes to that. He’s similar to me in that way, and I love seeing the effort and creativity he puts into his work as well. We’re both excited about what we do,so I’m interested in someone’s job if they are as well.
As a ND/autie i look at jewelry and other non-organic shapes and pieces first, then at textures and overall shapes, only noticing colors and genders last. This whole video is bizarre to me.
You’ve made the point in a lot of your videos that neurodivergent people are more honest and better at handling conflict, curious if this based on personal experience and/or is there research about this? I feel like I am still healing a lot of trauma responses so I never relate when you make those points. My fawning and people pleasing make me feel less ND in the terms you describe
Damn the action orientated neurotypical observation is spot on! Ive overhead so many conversations that focus ONLY on current plans, past plans and future plans
Yes, I agree. It is one thing to have a beige room and it is another thing to spray paint toys beige! It would only make sense if it was for a photography studio and they wanted backgrounds to be neutral.
What if NTs are just trying to control their social experience in the same way NDs try to control their “safe spaces” by limiting overstimulation? So when they see someone acting different than expected, it stresses them out and they want to remove it from their experience or change it? I mean, NDs do this too, mostly as a learned skill/habit to limit boredom, judgment, overstimulation, etc… but still.
I'm so guilty of being a LuluLemon girly because their tags come out completely and I can always trust that the texture isn't going to be overstimulating LOL. My overstimulating colorful outfits are for the 2 hours I leave my house for coffee and friends.
@@thethoughtspot222 Yes I totally get it! I can totally resonate to the video :) I meant to say that I am always struggling between choosing comfort or expression, it was amusing for me to reflect on while watching.
@@doodleplayer4014 They do! I'm sure there are good dupes out there, but with all of their clothing items if you pull on the tag it comes out completely. Sometimes it takes a little bit of coaxing, but they sew the tag in very delicately so that the entirety of it and the thread comes out without harming the actual seam they attach it to. No icky itchy leftover tag or thread is still hanging on too! Recently they have been coming out with some more bright and funky colors too! I'm always on the lookout for more unique designs.
For me, I love having art in the walls or decoration but in a simple way, when there are so many things or colors, I got overstimulated and being peaceful in my bedroom is so important for me, it’s my safe space
28:15 the bar must be low for me tbh because If I love someone I just love them because I love ALL of them, flaws and faults included. I don’t care about how wealthy they are or what job they have. I love them even if we don’t have all of the same things in common. I love my girlfriend. Even if I have times where we don’t talk much (I get burnt out easily, and I have to often choose between “talk to people” or engage in special interests/hobbies/important things), I will always love her.
explains why its so hard to make any fulfilling friendships or relationships, this external surface level focus creates an entirely different framework of processing the world so anyone who doesn't exist within that framework essentially doesn't exist, its assimilation or ostracisation.
@@bedhead-studio i get you :( the most we can do is find likeminded individuals atleast, so that within our own spaces we can exist as we are and be seen for ourselves
If anyone has any tips for this, I’m all ears. When starting new friendships I realise a few months down the track that we’re not using the same currency and can’t make any meaningful connections; our relationships are most-often miscommunications that lead to us drifting apart… we just don’t value the same things.
@@mistressmelia same here! the only advice i can currently give ,as cliche as it may sound, is to deliberately seek out places and people who you know from the get go will have what your currency values. but i understand it becomes far more intricate and delicate as time progresses, i myself still kinda have this issue and i havent lived for too long so i lack the experience to give a good answer aside from that. i do hope atleast this thread provides some form of kinship as we are all struggling with the same issue
As a neurodivergent person, I'm definitely more attracted to geniune expression and individuality over conformity. It makes sense why I'm drawn to uniqueness and people that stand out, as those people are often being truer to themselves than those that blend in. I know better than to judge a book by its cover, but peoples' expression does tend to allign with their value system, at least in terms of their authenticity and level of comfort in themselves. I also appreciate what you said about the systems people are willing to partake in, what systems they benefit from, and how that is reflected in their presentation. That really resonated with me, since I opt out of most of those systems myself and tend to get pinned as an outsider because of it. Thanks for putting words to something I couldn't, and thanks for breaking this down in such a nuanced way. I wouldn't have thought of a neurotypical vs neurodivergent gaze, per se, but it makes so much sense when you put it in those terms
Great video, a lot of your points made sense from experiences I’ve had in my life being Neurodivergent / having ADHD. The point about how neurotypical dwelling more on accomplishments and how successful you are seems so true from the experiences of trying to connect to others and having difficulties with it. Though when a person was more on my wavelength; we would connect and be able to communicate easily. The story about being invited to hang out with those girls and feeling a bit different and not being able to connect was so relatable to me as well. ✨
I gotta be honest your videos, they have helped. I don't watch as much cause of nursing school and so on. How do you have the ability to go through all the comments? I am actually slightly impressed you can even regulate the comment section like that. It's not like you have small UA-cam channel either. Well in any case thank you, as I appreciate the lifechanging work you've done. It was very helpful to learn especially of autistic burnout, and how to better handle myself from the burnout. The skills to manage myself -- I work with psyche patients so it can be very stressful -- in and out of social skills is much harder to me than the crazy grunt work of nursing and critical analysis that comes with it.
I’m so thankful yt (tho it’s many flaws) allows we neurodivergent people to interact and not feel so alone and alien 👽, in a neurotypical world ❤. Only 21 mins in and I’m floored. I relate so much. As a nd woman in my late 20’s I’m starting to feel more comfortable lifting the mask and being respectfully blunt & not self abandoning/people pleasing. It’s so freeing to honour and value myself & needs first. Being blunt and honest with people is what’s best for you. Good people will respect that. a fast way to see who they really are. If someone can’t take the first “no” & manipulates/guilt trips you to get you to do stuff you’ve expressed you don’t want to; they don’t value you. This was a news flash to me lol. I appreciate all the great work you do 🥰
A beautifully articulated video as always!! These videos give me courage to keep thinking the way I like to think. This video I think explains why queer and trans and gender nonconforming people are more likely to be neurodivergent! We’re better able to reflect and be real about who we are and what we want out of life
This makes alot of sense as an autistic person why i get rejected by neurotypicals AND autistics. My morals and interests dont align with neurotypicals and their social needs. My autistic special interests though are fashion and aesthetics, so other autistic people think im usually really rude because i have a neurotypical aesthetic in terms i am fascinated by the newest aesthetics bc of my autism
I feel you on this one! I noticed my aesthetics usually attracted NT people and they felt really confused when they actually got to know me. Likewise, I wanted to meet ND people but I feel like I didn’t look like I’d be someone they’d get along with
Ngl i would definitely be a lil repelled by you as an ND person but only out of self preservation, but as soon as I know you a little deeper, idd BFF you!! So dont be discouraged! Enjoy what you enjoy!!
Yes! People have told me that my environment is “too busy” but it’s a reflection of who I am as a person. I do appreciate that my treatment has helped me be more organized and clean, but it didn’t change my preferences/aesthetic. I collect textiles, handicrafts, costumes, plants, and have a lot of pets, so that is what you see. That dulling down of the kid’s stuff was so saddening. Primary colors! They’re primary! Ahhh!
I have a lot of sensory issues so most revealing clothing tends to cause me issues. Eg, strappy tops, tank tops, racerbacks, stuff with cutouts make my shoulders itch epically when they move around. Crop tops and rolled hems make me pick at my stomach. Low-rise pants and skirts always feel like they're falling down and I end up fiddling with it too often. Short skirts and shorts let my thighs rub together so I can't wear them. I can't wear accessories like necklaces, watches, rings and piercings cause I know i would pick at it. I used to try to fit in and wear what was popular but I gave up last year of high school and I won't bother buying something knowing that it will be uncomfortable to me. I've finally found a style that fits me which is finding 1 shirt I like, going back to the store and buying 6 of the same shirts and wearing it in perpetuity.
I too have experienced not being invited again by people bc I didn’t conform to their group or better yet I struggle with others. I would rather be myself then pretend to be someone I think they rather be around and that always got me in trouble. Being myself all the way got me ostracized or ignored bc I deviant from what people expect. When I spoke to others I rather talk about my interests which always were niche, unpopular or “childish”. So it’s very hard to form long lasting relationships others. Unless it’s about kids and money (I’m married and have a child and money is always a an issue) it’s hard to relate to many millennials. It seems that’s all they want to talk about (or at least around me). Small talk was something that i desperately tried to master and yes it got much easier to talk to a variety of people however it didn’t guaranteed genuine connections. When it comes to interpersonal relationships it’s very lacking and I feel like I still treat them like I did when I was in highschool-very immaturely and I still struggle with social cues- and unfortunately I only make friends with NDs while the NTs I had as friends no longer are. I think it’s bc of what u said that many treat relationships as transactional and many or most of my friendships were that bc I thought that was how it was suppose to be 😅
With regards to people putting a lot of effort into their appearance for "casual" activities 22:41 I wanted to add that there's another side to the coin for alternative people where putting a lot of time into one's outward presentation is how we further deviate ourselves from the norm. I know for myself when I spend hours on my appearance--whether that be for an outfit or makeup--even when it's not the most comfortable or practical it always helps me feel I'm truly expressing myself and makes a stand to those around me as it's not perceived as "normal". I agree with the original point where people using their time to cater their looks to the norm says something about their value system, but I think that the practicality of your appearance doesn't always denote being confident in your ideals or sense of self! 💚💚
You just explained my entire social experience my whole life. Wowza! I’m a “plain Jane” aesthetic which I suppose fits the nice girl, but honestly I have NEVER understood clothes or style of fashion lol. It’s like a different language to me 😂 just give me a comfortable shirt and some loose jeans. So ND of me.
Omg that woman did her boyfriend’s apartment so dirty. She took a magic eraser to his LIFE! His apartment was so nice! She turned it into a sad airport hotel!
How do these points apply to lesbians? Specifically on the point of women who tend to dress up and do makeup in a way that would be objectively attractive to men but are femme lesbians? I also think this general conversation can teeter on something tricky as it can be vaguely related to the way men judge women based on external appearance/outfits but it’s interesting to hear.
Dressing for the "neurodivergent gaze" takes so much time and effort. Id love to dress as a goth 17th century pirate prince and dye my hair bright red etc but more often than not its just easier to wear a simple dress (like the one sabrina carpenter is wearing in that picture u put on your video cover) or simple pants like those other skinny big boobed girls are wearing
All these gazes are basically about trying super hard to do societal expectations vs not. And sometimes not trying will look like you're trying because that's what's comfortable for you, and sometimes queer ND weirdos (/pos) will try hard for survival, and sometimes trying hard will look counterculture-y because of the people you hang out around or the message you want to project. But there's still a pattern and all the gazes connect
This is a good video, theres a classic saying that "Looks can be deceiving and its true" looks are very decieving, the people who look intimidating can be some of the nicest friendliest people ever, and people who look nice and friendly, can be the meanest and most toxic people ever! I also agree with the assimilation things with neurotypicals. I'm an ND Male, and I do see lots of NT males trying to put on a masculine facade, thats unauthentic, and similarly with NT women who try too hard to put on a feminine facade. With ND men and women, we tend to stay true to ourselves, and we can even come off as tradtionally non-masculine, or non-feminine, and this definitely causes conflict with NTs.
Haven't finished the video yet but I have to say that before I lose it. I went to a three day trip with a travel agency recently. We were all in the bus, in the same hotel, eating breakfast and dinner together, went on a cruise... There were so many interesting people! There was a lady that literally reminded me a fairy, with the way she was dressed so colorfully and smiling and just enjoying the trip to the max. There were shy people too, like myself. Everyone at some point was asking everyone about what they do, where they work, whether or not they have kids, what did they study, etc etc. And I never did. I'm not saying this to brag, it just never occurred to me, even after they had asked me the same thing. I don't care. I've never cared. What someone does for job or other information gathering like that has never been my go to for conversation with new people. What I care most about is how they experience this moment, this trip, this food, this cruise, this hotel, what stories they gather whenever we're not all together. Did they go up and see the view from the ancient castle? Wasn't it wonderful? How was the beach? Did the dive from the side of the cruise ship? How was that? These are the things I care about. I don't care about anyone's achievements, I don't want anything from them except their stories and their company and what we're sharing right now. And you know, things like jobs and stuff get sprinkled in the conversation either way, you're going to learn it whether or not you ask because they will have a story to tell you about how such situation is similar to another experience they had at work or with kids or with daily life. So I don't know why it's everyone's go to to ask about these things first thing when meeting people. But I wouldn't be surprised if subconsciously it has something to do with status and opportunity gathering from every person you meet. I've just never been like that.
As an autistic person myself I do think it's important to remember that neurotypical people do get a lot of value out of all that social stuff. I think it's pretty easy to become cynical about NT motivations if you forget that. For example when NT have smalltalk about meaningless topics none of them intrinsically care about, it's not because they're just going through the motions to safe face, they actually get something valuable out of the act of talking which makes the topic secondary. I've felt pretty hurt in the past discussing the topic of small talk with my NT partner and his family because I felt like "oh so you don't care about what I'm saying then why do you act like you do?" but my partner explained it's because they do care about me as a person even though they don't care about my opinion on the weather or whatever. I think NT people are able to read between the lines those things about who someone is and what they stand for that we ND/autistic people would prefer to/need to talk about more directly. Similarly when NT people follow trends etc I don't think they're just trying to fit in I think the fact that many other people are also doing that thing adds genuine value and enjoyment to it for them.
Woahhh I’ve always felt alienated in high school even when I tried to dress to fit in! I share your exact experience with groups of girls too. I’ve doubted myself but this was very reassuring. You’re so good with describing exactly your experience it makes so much sense! Thank you so much for this video
15:30 You explained my issue with my coworker honestly. She activates my sense of justice rage because she genuinely expects people to do emotional labor for her while she shows little regard to peoples feelings. She’s always so rude, says judgmental shit , snappy, doesn’t say thank you for the simplest things and god forbid she ever listens to any suggestion I have yet she expects me to always be nice to her, not hold grudges and just….basically do things HER away. One time I just swapped places of stuff right next to each other and she found it and SCREAMED at me and lectured me on how I always mess things up??? She’s just an awful person who just seems to lack empathy and she whines how she has no friends and how no one likes her. It’s infuriating for me, I can’t just ignore her antics like others are. She genuinely goes out of her way to be rude to me by commenting on stuff I do differently and butting into my conversations to make snarky comments.
As an autistic man, I see men do this too. Dudes & jocks are mostly, if not all neurotypical, and the neurodivergent men are "softer", "nerdy" and "gayer", and tend to dress in their own style. It's kind of funny how much my friends and I care a lot about loyalty and authenticity. Character. I'm so glad to see this discussed online! :^D
This video is sooo interesting!! I really resonated when you talked about being able to bounce around different friend groups and get along with people, but not officially being a part of the friend group. I’ve always been that way since I get along with everyone, but usually only keep one or two friends very close to me at one time. Being a part of a large group of friends just seems daunting!!! Even in my heavy masking days, I never felt part of a “group”. Just had one friend that belonged to their own group and I would be invited to hang out *sometimes*.
Beware for people like my mom: The narcissist wearing bright colours to lure you in. Narcissists are all concerned with how they appear- their mask- and will only show you who they actually are once they feel like they've got you secured (aka: you can't threaten their social status anymore). My mom is very nice yes but not KIND. She will screw you over in a heartbeat if it benefits her. Remember to have discernment and to set boundaries based on the effects their actions had on you- not be endlessly forgiving because 'they're just incompetent- they'll learn, I just have to stay and help them' or 'they didn't intend it in that way'. I went no-contact with my mom for a good reason. Stay safe out there.
Irene you always have just the right words to express the unspoken!!!! People in my life can always tell whether or not I chose my own outfit because my priority is always myself-is it comfortable, is it pretty like a flower or tree or vines, is it not something you see every day, etc. Trends are NEVER on my mind (drives my family crazy). I’ve always been this way, and I’ve always been autistic 🥰 So happy to be me 🥰
I kinda feel like a lot of the ways you described neurotypical people are examples of stunted neurotypical people. I think all people really want the same things at heart and it's probably the case that a lot of neurotypical people find it harder to shed the ideals that have been instilled in them than neurodivergent people who never fucked with those ideals to begin with. Anyone who is dating someone for clout or feels the need to post their entire life on social media for validation is just a person who has some growing to do I think.
i love this video as this divide is very much real, and is truly more than just aesthetics, and you describe it so clearly it's easy to grasp! (don't censor this comment pls?😭) however, i don't think this divide is necessarily between NTs/NDs, as there are plenty deeply authentic NT people as well as NDs who indeed act superficial and unnecessarily judgy, just based on a different value system than typicals the biggest turnoff for me actually are people who don't even try remaining open to other people and their hidden potentials after they finished categorizing and boxing them in based on whatever category system they may use we could call this divide essentialists vs potentialists or sumn
i’m so glad you talked about your experience with that group of girls! as an autistic person who can’t drink, i relate to the struggle of having to choose my own health/level of overstimulation over strengthening bonds with people. for other neurodivergent people struggling with their own sense of self surrounding friendships, just know you will find people who will accept you for your needs, sensory or otherwise. you are enough on your own!
Being neurodivergent with a “nice body” is so confusing for people and even myself. Like I see how I could benefit from the baddie aesthetic but I just can’t bring myself to dress in that way. 😭 A guy friend even told me he doesn’t understand why I dress “that way” when I have a nice body. I also realized how much more confident I am with the way I dress in New York than I am in L.A. (hometown).
God, all of my sisters are so neurotypical and their houses are beige or black/white and plain. They're all neat freaks too. And I'm the messy one with anime figures and shelves upon shelves of books and video games and movies, and weird art in my house... my kid and I love to show off our interests because it makes us happy. I'm 45 and have tons of stuffed animals on my bookshelves, simply cause they're adorable. Whereas, I have no clue what any of my sisters are into. As far as I'm aware not a single one of them has any hobbies or interests aside from shopping and spending time with their partners. Where I've been willingly single for nearly 9yrs now just raising my weird little kid and being happy spending time with him playing Fortnite and watching anime and building a bond with my kid that none of them will ever have with their own children. It's crazy how much perspective I just got from this. I used to do the whole trying to fit in shit, now I just don't care anymore. My kid thinks I'm the coolest (and he's 14) and he doesn't keep any secretes from me and trusts me and that makes me know I've not totally failed as a parent.
unwarranted comment from a stranger: i get a sense of deep bitterness you have towards your sisters. I'm sorry if they ever made you feel less than them - I've had a lot of that in my life from my family. retorting that they won't have a personal relationship like yours shows you have room for personal growth. Maybe you're past changing, but i hope that spite won't rub off on your kid and torture his mind in the future. i couldn't think of a better way to say that, but man, that part of your comment rubbed me the wrong way.
@@kiniyini No, no bitterness towards the sister with the kids. She & I get along great. The other two sisters however I've pretty much disowned for other unrelated to this post reasons.
I think you really nailed this and helped me concisely identify how I've felt for years but never fully understood. As a neurotypical man, I always found it odd that I was unattracted to girls dressing for the male gaze, and was more drawn to girls dressing for the feminine gaze..but like you said, there are multifaceted aspects about how people dress that are indicative of their personality, their worldview, their individuality, their core values etc, and now I have a greater understanding and awareness to myself and why I feel how I feel. Thanks for all your insights
I avoid groups who value people based on their willingness to comform to external things. I'm looking for value based groups. It makes me sad and uncomfortable when people judge by appearances. I have of course learned to be able to do it to some extent but I try to not use that classification system unless people show me they fit certain stereotypes. Personally outfits are a kind of special interest for me. I use clothing to express my personality creatively. I have definitely experienced being treated like a mean girl based on the way I look especially when I was younger and had blonde hair for a while. It was not fun. So I have become careful around judging books by their cover.
9:37 I will say, I don’t mask by dressing. But I don’t look like the “mean girl” or the “nice girl”. On average, I don’t have the energy to dress up and also don’t like wasting good outfits on uneventful days, so I wear my “lounge” clothes instead. HOWEVER, you can tell stuff from it, like the things I enjoy such as hello kitty. Internally, I look like the “nice girl” but extreme.
Yeah when I was growing up and still today, the alternative and fashionable dressing girls are just as mean to me as the plain dressed beige lululemon girls lol. So I can't completely relate to this. I do agree the right side of the thumbnail looks much cooler though. When people dress fun it's like free stims lol.
As a neurodivergent person who dresses about 50/50, I love dressing sensually, it makes me feel super confident and unrestricted. I'm talking I'll wear lingerie while I'm home alone all the time, would that be considered dressing for the male gaze? Probably🤷♀️ but it makes me feel like a million bucks even when I'm the only one to see it. Depending on the day I easily could be pinned as a "mean girl" based on what I wear and how I look. I hope girls don't turn their backs on me bc of my style. Maybe I'm an outlier but if people assumed my values, boundaries, and sense of identity based on my clothing, they'd definitely be dead wrong. Now my house on the other hand is an explosion of color and random junk I consider personally valuable (like a crystal bowl full of acorns I gathered💀). I love the conversation and it definitely has its points, but the age old saying of "Don't judge a book by its cover" is something I hope people keep in mind for my own selfish sake.
You always have unique ideas for exploration and this was super intriguing: I concur about being unable to answer certain types of questions because the potential answers don’t hold the real value for me 🙂🍀
The problem I have is not fitting in with either. Because I'm often too oppressed to be afforded the ability to survive while fully rocking the neurodivergent gaze, but too neurodivergent to be okay with suppressing myself fully, and I end up in this weird middle ground where I want to look safe and approachable yet dangerous and ready to swing my chain in your face at a moments notice but ONLY so that I won't get unalived by someone who wants to kill or hurt me for being a queer trans homeless person. Some of the other punks and powerless street people at the bottom rungs of the economy love me, but the rest of society is fucking terrified of me, which sucks, because I would like to appeal to the neurodivergent more but without being treated as a scary threat to be ostracized. PTSD is a nightmare even when you get it in remission. And then the really hurtful thing is nobody has solutions. They just tell me to go to the same systems that oppress me over and over and then when those don't help they treat me as if I'M the problem but I've already tried everything I can think of and still can't find a safe place to live with people who share my values.
Not a fan of what's being called "mean girl" . However, if one wants to hyper-genderize him/herself, have fun with it, play, celebrate! The queens out there get it. Love to all the queens out there
What I find interesting is that if people aren't falling into the categories she is talking about why are so many in the comments taking offense?(/gen). For example the grocery market comment. I am neruo-spicy, but I understand that multiple things can be true simultaneously. For example, a person who is wearing makeup and tight clothes to the market, "specificity" to look good in the male gaze, who is actively upholding the patriarchy is completely different from someone who is wearing tight clothes and makeup for themselves for their own fulfillment and enjoyment/comfortability ( this can overlap it can be female gaze but it could also at times be male gaze) But if you are partaking in anything male gaze fundamentally it is neurotypical regardless if you doing it for yourself or not ( and that's okay!). The people she is specifically talking about are not. The neurotypical or neurodivergent ppl who choose to do things for themselves she was "specifically" talking about neurotypicals who uphold a certain way of life and if you don't fall within it you're cast out.
Idk I feel like a lot of people missed her entire point or maybe I'm just not understanding lol, I thought it was established that these statements in the video were not binary but could overlap and she was talking about a specific group of people that is typically ( maybe) the majority that are in these particular aesthetics or mainstreams(its entirely possible for you to be apart of this group but non of this apply to you).
If you're wearing makeup and tight clothes because you love it that's great! I hope its safe to say that Irene would encourage individuality expression and what makes you happy. (As I would myself) The group of ppl she's talking about don't, in fact, there would be nothing individual about following a trend to a point that it affects your judgment of society. However, there is no way physically any of us can tell these things about ppl in the wild by looking at them, hence the conversation, but if you were to interact with said individuals in the wild you'd quickly get your answer.
I don't think its meant to divide the two or say one is bad and the other isn't, it was to show the differences between the two. Neuro-divergents; for the most part will mostly be themselves but also some neurodivergents may struggle because they uphold a neuro-typical value system. Neurotypicals will mostly follow the norm, BUT some neurotypicals value individuality more, hence why in the end what she said about fundamentally attracting people to you makes sense it can be both groups.
I think if she wasn't talking about you in particular and you took offense to what she said there is a lot to unpack there(/gen). I myself have gone out dressed up before to do casual things but I didn't take offense because she wasn't talking about me. I do things when I want to not to uphold a system. So ppl who are like me or in my category don't count cause she isnt talking about us...( us as in neurotypicals and neurodivergent who are just themselves all the time)
I hope this makes sense, all love
You understand what my intentions were 100%. Thank you.🙏🏻
seems like you have a specific type of person in mind that you call "neurotypical people" but are actually just very image-focused people. they may be NT or ND. i know many ND people that seek out relationships based on the values you are describing (financial/social security etc.)
i´ve met the nicest people with a very "basic style" and some mean people with a more "alternative" style. i think style doesn't define your personality or if you're neurodivergent, maybe people that dress with more colors or "different" could be more creative but that doesn't mean they're neurodivergent. also... being on the spectrum doesn't make you automatically nice. anyway, i dont think you're completely wrong, this is just my opinion.
I agree. Sometimes I dress “male gazey” not because I have a high ego, or crave male validation but because I like how it looks . Sometimes I dress in a neurodivergent gaze way. I do not want to be judged or have my character analysed based on my aesthetic that day. Especially when they don’t even know me that’s not fair at all.
In my personal opinion, I feel that aesthetics have not only ruined the internet and social media, but also how people are expected to carry out their daily lives on a general basis.
Aesthetics are for sure a double-edged sword. On one hand they allow for a lot more creativity and variability in fashion that before wouldn’t have been acceptable, but on the other hand they have become so much more than just a means of expressing a style. They’ve morphed into personalities and stereotypes and it just seems to be getting worse.
because this whole video can just be basic or trendy fashion versus alternative fashion. also don't get me started on those tiktoks from the beginning
Can you elaborate on what you mean and how? (Genuinely curious)
@@riyakumar8932idk about what OP specifically meant, but a ton of people into fashion think that by creating various labels for different fashion aesthetics, you are putting people in boxes and restricting fashion statements to a set of rules, instead of developing their own unique fashion style & learning how to style & pair things based on what the person themselves like, as opposed to what the “aesthetic” says to wear, which often creates cookie cutter outfits that claim to be original and unique, but lack originality and creativity.
@@riyakumar8932
This is by NO MEANS a bad thing at all! A lot of people like to participate in fashion without having to think about it, regardless of labels such as “basic” and “alt” and whatever other label you use, I think it is totally fine to follow trends if gives you a sense of ease. Many people like to partake in most art forms without being “original” or “unique” and if you’re often striving for those, you might up end up unhappy bc nobody can be truly unique. HOWEVER “aesthetics” can take away from that personal touch of creativity / self expression as we(the internet) put people into these boxes and even worse, restrict the things people CAN wear based on a fictional, often fluid set of “rules” people have to follow to fit the label. Labels are great in the way that you can connect with others and build a community, but with ANY community, sometimes it can get out of hand
As an autistic girl I prefer the left side of the thumbnail. I like it simple, comfy and feeling attractive. I would probably wear something like what Kylie is wearing. And that’s the reason why people never believe me when I say I’m autistic. The right side is just too much for me. The colors, the hair, the clothes, the texture, the makeup even just thinking about doing all that freaks me out. I hate jewelry, anything touching my body tbh, I could never spend so much time on my hair or makeup. That’s why I’m also high maintenance I like it clean and simple. Even my room looks like a hospital room. Everything in white and I only have one bed and one desk.
Maybe it’s because I was always overstimulated in my childhood having a mom with adhd and being undiagnosed for a long time
I think the overlap of the ND/queer community is a huge factor in a lot of the styles we see online!
Very this, a lot of Queer people are neurodivergent like me, for example. Very much both, and they influence each other in many different ways.
Yeah sometimes I feel like the last straight AuDHD man on Earth hahaha
that’s what i said! the examples that the first tiktok irene got inspired by showed examples of queer fashion.
Also, the anarchist artist free thinker :)
@@plasmabat718 you are the last one
I don’t see people wearing anime shirts or collecting figures as any less capitalistic as lululemon/beige preferring people. It’s all a lot of products, just to different interests. Maybe I’m missing something. I liked the observations about values, that some are more about extrinsic values and appearance while others care more about intrinsic values and compatibility. I don’t quite understand the gazes or the general trends/dichotomies pointed out though. This was an interesting video, thank you for sharing your thoughts (and for the 4 takes it took).
For that section, it’s not about whether each product/interest is intrinsically more or less capitalistic. Rather, it’s about the difference in societal perceptions around the product and how that connects to the individual with it. So, for example, a person with an anime figure might have more neurodivergent values by the way that the stereotypically nerdy and negative connotations given to the person by having said anime figure are less important than the intrinsic joy the figure brings to that individual. It’s a sense of caring more about their authentic expression and self than the societal perception and assimilation that a neurotypical person might value.
That said there is a separate comment to be made about how so called neurotypical values and behaviours interact with and perhaps benefit from the larger capitalistic context that we live in, thus being “more capitalistic” or more suited to capitalism in a sense, which is where you may have gotten muddled.
Hope this helps!😅
The capitalism argument comes from the fact that some people buy things just because they enjoy them and then some people buy things because they will give them more capital, monetary or social. Stereotypical "pretty mean girls" will use their beauty as a capital to gain popularity, a boyfriend who gives them connections and money, friends who give them connections and or expensive trips, media attention, something in return that can benefit them externally, objectively. They then will use this social capital to gain more money or social status or something that would make them money such as fame, exposure, endorsement, etc. And in capitalism, social status is a very powerful tool and if you don't have it you will not succeed. This is why NTs are so susceptible to marketing. Because by buying the thing that you see other people buying, you are being indirectly associated with that person and can use this connection to climb the social and economic ladder. Whereas a ND person typical buys things just because they like it, regardless of what they gain externally gain from it. NDs usually do not care what they gain externally. They care more about the internal, emotional reward.
Yeah it's not about the consumption part
I don’t think it’s about the consumption, but rather the value that’s placed in being able to achieve social capital through your looks. Dressing a bit more revealing and beige could possibly indicate either an alignment with those values or not having needed to think about how you are presenting, which is more of a neurotypical thing. I think the argument here is that neurodivergent people have needed to think about their presentation so much just to be able to fit in that many have been able to determine what it is that they like and wish to express, which is the argument behind the colorful clothes, which clearly requires more thought to put in than just following the status quo
from wut i gathered it was more about bein able to tell wut the person is interested in and how to decipher potential personality based off of wut they like rather than how much they bought contributes to capitilism
while i mostly agree with the video i do find the whole concept of the "female gaze" kind of annoying and patronizing ("oh all women are emotionally and socially oriented and only value artsy soft pretty things") , and the concept of a neurodivergent vs neurotypical gaze almost made me want to click off the video. maybe there's a better way to phrase this?
the term the "male gaze" was coined to describe a specific phenomenon on how women were portrayed in media, as if there was a straight man constantly "gazing" upon them. it wasn't really just a term to describe what men see as attractive, so the subsequent uses of "female gaze" in commentary feel like it's missing the point. i do think the idea that certain aesthetics in the modern era are favored by certain types of people is absolutely valid, however, although i think it's less about specific styles of fashion as it is fitting in/ vs not fitting in to the broadest common denominator of what is in style, and as styles will shift it's possible so will what the "neurodivergent gaze" and "neurotypical gaze" is (english isn't my native language i hope i'm making sense)
Sometimes I dress with the male gaze in mind but sometimes with the male gays in mind. Sometimes I dress with the female gaze in mind but sometimes I dress with the female gays in mind. However, I always dress how I feel in the moment.
🤣🤣 this comment wins
@thethoughtspot222 ✨️💗 Just tellin my truth. Much love!
As a fellow non-binary, I approve of this comment.
@@rithefreeme too babe, I love the grungy aesthetic tbh tomboy with a few dress up days ❤
@esmegemini9257 I love a good switch up. Never lose the fun in dressing up!
It seems like you're making an association between ND and a strong self identity. Which, I dunno, would you agree with that? Could the distinctions you noticed be less about NT vs ND, and more about different conceptions of self?
For what it's worth, I have quite a weak sense of self, and I dress for invisibility.
I agree with you. Neurotypical people who are firm in their self-identity are also comfortable with showing up as their authentic selves; they'll break away from established norms and trends. They might not do it the same way that neurodivergent people do, and I'd be interested in seeing the similarities and differences.
I also think that maturity plays a role in how you present yourself to others. The example Irene shared about being invited out and then getting ostracized because she didn't participate in all the social activities says a lot about the social and emotional maturity of that friend group -- not necessarily about them being neurotypical.
My youngest (20) is ND and has a real low confidence but dresses boldly, to make people think they're tough. I've known so many insecure ppl who dressed differently and it was like their "armour" if you know what I mean. Not just a statement of who they are.
would you consider your desire for invisibility part of your sense of self? or are you dressing to blend in with others
If you're ND and have a weak sense of self and dress for invisibility, that sounds like you've been masking so long you don't know what you actually like and you dress "normal" so that people don't single you out and target you. That's not the same thing as an NT dressing to blend in. When NT's dress to blend in, they blend in specifically to increase their social status.
@@katherinedipierro8383 Okay, but the fact that that is a textbook example of how immature NTs act, doesn't change that fact that they are NT. NT and ND operate on two separate wavelengths. "Emotionally mature" NT women from my experience are just better at hiding their judgment, because they know they will be judged if they judge someone outwardly. Emotionally mature NT women are not gonna wanna all of a sudden be friends with an ND woman if they have nothing to gain from her. Like the way they work is so fundamentally different from NT, emotional maturity does not explain these stark differences in behavior between the two groups, NT and ND that happens at ALL age groups and so called "maturity levels". "Maturity levels" also seem arbitrary to me. An immature NT woman is going to be mean. An immature ND woman is most often going to be overly friendly and not understand why others don't like her. A mature NT woman is going to get better at hiding her judgment. A mature ND woman finally understands that her brain works differently from the other girls and maybe why. Two separate worlds.
As a neurodivergent who tends toward neurotypical aesthetics simply because theyre less overstimulating visually, im sick of getting unwarranted judgment and hate from other neurodivergents who cant recognize that I'm just prioritizing my pragmatic functionality over conforming to their unspoken aesthetic rules. There are so many layers to the neurodivergent vs neurotypical gaze that i dont think it can accurately be boiled down into such dichotomous conclusions
@@bedhead-studio frustrating is such a good word for it. but all the more reason for us to give zero fux and lean into our own ways of expressing ourselves visually
Ok the tik tok that got you thinking about this topic just rubs me the wrong way. Especially since I have met tons of mean loud color wearing people and nice cliche trendy outfit wearing people.
In my personal autistic experience, people come in many forms. Though I DO see what she was trying to do here. If you asked me when i was in high school, i would have wholeheartedly agreed cause the "mean girls" in this tiktok look like the girls who would mock and bully me back in high school and the "nice girls" would be the ones who I hung out with.
This is a very interesting topic Irene and really got me thinking!
i totally agree. i think it’s more that so many people use clothes as like a show of status and the beige stuff is a classic way to do that. but i do think the colorful shit can be used in a similar way especially in a more progressive environment. idk if i worded that well i hope that made sense 😭😭
so what are you trying to say?
@@joy0953 I'm saying that clothes do not always dictate whether a person is "good" or "bad". The second part pointed out that I do understand where this line of thinking comes from. Me in high school would have agreed based on my experiences of that time. Me now has a completely different perspective based on further experience meeting different kinds of people.
Sorry if I wasn't clear in my original comment. Hope this clears it up!
@@KoharuMacchiato thank you for clearing things up
Agreed. Judging people by visual characteristics is a recipe for a really sad life.
When I'm contacted by the neurotypical gaze, I feel like I'm being weighed and measured. Judged. The neurodivergent gaze is usually happy to meet another neurodivergent gaze.
Yes, they're usually trying to see if you fit into their ecosystem. ND's just wants to see if you're nice or if you can vibe together
Nah, meeting another neurodivergent gaze would require eye contact. We like to hold another neurodivergent gaze in our peripheral vision.
@@JonBrase😂😂
okay but im judgmental as fuck
fr and im not neurodivergent
Quit caring about aesthetics. Wear what you like. I hate the internet & what it’s done to style. I’m 40, thank god I’m done with any of this shit. But young girls, be free & live your life, think for yourself & know you don’t need to follow trends. You all are just losing yoursevles in the black hole abyss of online. Tragic
22:33 Girlieee nooo, that's exactly the opposite. I dress up extra(like Chappell Roan level) wherever I go cause that's me, it's completely opposite of appealing to the male gaze walking into anything like it's a high fashion show. I would rather die than be casual anywhere. And it's not uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable and awkward if I don't do it.
Me too and I’m ND. This part of the video felt judgmental and hypocritical
The social bartering concept is mind blowing. It’s a great explanation for why I just can’t seem to click with certain people. We’re both trying to get something out of this interaction but what we’re looking for is not available and they don’t accept your currency in this store. Neither party is necessarily right or wrong. It’s just not meant to be
yes! you got it
Well said!
ig i always knew this but didnt have the words to properly describe it other than "vibes" i can usually vibe enough w ppl to have a decent convo if we're coworkers, but sometimes its not enough to become friends. some ppl will take offense but personally i dont mind since ik i can be p eccentric to alotve neurotypical ppl
Honestly, I do not agree with a lot of the things you said. I do think that the compatibility between different people relies heavily on how much you let a person take part in your life on a personal level. Wether that may be through experiences you share or the experience you take with you into that relationship to grow and build from each other. I do understand you were heavily generalising everything like you disclaimed. But I just think that making a Box of what is deemed neurodivergent and neurotypical just defeats the whole point of being neurodivergent at the first place. It is not about the way you dress for the male or female or any gaze. Neither is it about what you value from another person. I can wear high heels and a miniskirt and heavy makeup and all that for the male gaze and still be neurodivergent! I don’t get where that generalisation even comes from? I also think that it’s not really about your neurodivergence that makes you do more of this and that. Like it’s called neurodivergent for a reason. I can have adhd and autism and still have all the „symptoms“ and „signs“ a neurotypical person would have. It’s all about diversity inside our brains functioning system after all. And also… I’m not saying any of this in any negative light towards you whatsoever!!! I simply mean to put the very unnecessary and for me a little bit hurtful generalisations to an end and say in simple words: do what makes you feel fulfilled! If it’s on a superficial level of trying to appeal to the male gaze or not…that’s still my decision at the end of the day. I chose that for myself, because it benefits my very bad circumstances that I have grown up in. A lot of people have put themselves into this situation because… in the end it’s still a man’s world. And I know it adds to the problem and in every way I wish I could just live for myself. But my life and most of the lives of people i know heavily depend on appealing to the male gaze.
I sometimes feel embarrassed when I’m dressed up at the grocery store, I think people will assume I dressed up to show off at the grocery store. But really I just find it hard to get the energy to go to the store, so I tack it on after a more fun activity to make it easier since I have the momentum of being out already.
same. i wear wild outfits when im out running errands. if people don’t like it, idgaf lmfao maybe they could learn something from me and stop being so bland 😌
Going to the grocery store is just an excuse for me to dress up haha. I usually get compliments because my style is not.. typical.
Its really tough, I'm constantly torn between dressing up and not because I fear judgement from both sides, I think overall I prefer underdressed though bcuz less visual stimulation and less notice 😅
i wrote a comment about this as well. i agree and completely understand queen 💗💕
i agree with you. contrary to what irene says about people who dress up for casual situations, i am dressing up for myself to motivate myself to get out of the house and feel happy in how i present myself (self-authentication), not to cater to the gaze of other people. For the record, I am somewhere between the two sides on the thumbnail.
I'll be honest, I really disagree here with a lot of the original videos you show here. Some of the meanest, least empathetic people I've met fit the "neurodivergent" vibe. The people I've met who have brightly dyed hair, wear loud boisterous outfits etc have been way too hard-headed and self-centred. My personal experience is almost entirely converse to what you describe in this video
If you get a mean girl who craves attention, has pretty privilege, and an extroverted personality, the neurodivergent aesthetic can often be adopted by them because it’s a conversation starter or a “not like other girls” approach. I’ve also ran into this breed of mean girl
I agree
A topic that would be good to talk about more... (mean knowingly and unknowingly) neurotypical ppl and how they extract from/target neurodivergent ppl for their own benefit/image.
It makes perfect sense for some ‘’mean girls’’ to do that because they think in what gives them value, and what they could get out of things with others. Dressing for the neurodivergent gaze as a neurotypical, may trick others into thinking that you are ‘’open-minded’’ and have really developed your sense of self. But since they are only used that the ‘’outter shell’’ works, the cracks begin to show when they try to befriend neurodivergent people. Because they are (surprise surprise) by far not only interested in how someone looks.
I'm the same, I was in an 'alternative' friend group in school AND THEY were the ones who ostracised me when they didn't like me anymore, not the 'normal' girls. Obviously this is anecdotal but it's my experience throughout all of my life
I can only wear athletic clothes becase tight clothes help my sensory issues. Also, my special interest is fitness so I like to be able to move at all times. I’m not mean though
There are so many quirky and colorful people that are actually mean. Colorful and quirky CAN be a way to self express, but it can also be a way to shallowly signal to those around you that you are, rebellious, artistic, divergent, free thinking etc. While you're really just putting on a persona to fit in. Status looks different in different social circles, so people that play for status rather than being their authentic selves can dress however, if they think that it will give them status among a certain group of people. People will try to look like a misfit to try to belong in the same way that people will try to look 'normal' in order to belong. Being 'punk' is inherently about not conforming to social norms, but the irony about that is that when everybody is punk nobody is and when everybody has opinions that are a bit out there, the 'normal' becomes the non conformist. Another paradox is that the people that try to appear quirky and colorful are some times very mean to people like you, because they've made it their personality to be different, so when somebody who dresses for the 'male gaze' has a more developed personality they can't stand it.
“Neurodivergent people are better at dealing with conflict”
Meanwhile I’m sitting in the corner with my autism, hiding from the conflict 😂
i think more than neurotypical and neurodivergent, that first tiktok video get a vibe of women hating women 💀💀💀
yeah her delivery wasn’t great but she brought up interesting talking points
Exactly i don't get why we have to be put into stereotypes like that, it's actually very invalidating, because i dress like the "mean girl aesthetic", well sometimes anyways and i'm literally neurodivirgent, when will people learn that the world is not as stereotypical as they make it out to be.
I think this „system“ of categorising women can come out of having had a lot bad experiences with being judged by other women. Just my 2 cents.
@@noya6006 I agree with you. I'm neurodivergent and gay and dress like a "mean girl". This was all very confusing to me as a neurodivergent 😭
obviously it’s a joke to some degree. but she was pretty spot on anyways
I think your definition of neurodivergence is just autism, ocd, adhd
For what it's worth, I have ADHD and I like something in the middle of the two sides of the thumbnail.
NO SAMEW lmfao, for me both aspects in terms of gaze overlap for me so much. i used to not care about how i dressed as a teen but to the point where i would underdress for specific events, so i got insecure about it as i approached my 20’s. i know it sounds like i’ve outgrown it but many people my age today dress the exact same as i did back then yk
I can't tell if you're flirting with the creator or if you're talking about the two aesthetics in the thumbnail lmao either way I agree
@@vivi-ws9ylno fr😭
As a ND teacher, I try pretty hard to dress towards the "NT" style in order to look more "professional", but most of the time I end up wearing a lot of clothes that have the "ND" style.
im autistic and i just wear baggy clothes
I think all these gazes can be simplified to "objective gaze" vs "humanist gaze". Literally, are you perceiving people as human or objects
mhmmmm
Hey I see where a lot of this is going and I’m a little stuck on your story of not being invited out. As a ND person who would usually rather have a potluck with close friends and not go clubbing, I don’t think it’s accurate that they treated you badly I think the activities were just not compatible to you. Being very honest, if I invited someone out and they showed up late, didn’t want to do the activity we had planned, and then left early I Would assume they didn’t like me and didn’t want to hang out. That feels very bad from the other side.
16:39 it’s so strange to me. I like people because I like them, because I vibe with them. Not their looks.
IKR. I also didn't get those tiktoks when the lady talked how the women dressed in bright clothes or with brightly dyed hair looked kind and approachable to her and women dressed in muted tones were the opposite. I knew people judged based on appearance but I didn't expect it to be this black and white. :D
@@hyperfocus94fr, she is too shallow
Right side caught my eye first. Shame I'm from the all-black (no separating laundry), same 3 outfits, same hair, same makeup part of the spectrum that would lose all executive function for the day from being put together and couldn't cope with anyone looking at me in an eyecatching outfit 😭
It's okay! Sometimes we don't have enough spoons or we simply prefer less visual stimulation
I can't wear the styles I like. I would get overstimulated in no time.
Dressing for the ND gaze is also wearing dark clothes because you're not sure you can wash out food stains on lighter color options imo. 🎉
@@toni2309one of my styles has been called comfy goth. I call it edgy librarian lol. I love seeing people wear harnesses and metal belts, but boy does it seem like too much for me to wear.
@@ANME1rocker Okay but thank you so much for this! Taking inspiration from that style
this conversation is mind boggling to me because I don't understand dressing for gazes. It makes me feel like a product. People also forget that especially for NDs, it's about the actual feeling. So many people have commented in times I don't like wearing bras, as if its attention grabbing or flusy. When in actuality I have chronic pain, lifting them up to my chin doesn't help, and I get easily hot and suffocated in fabric/wire. The same reasoning goes for flowing pieces to breathe, or hugging athleisure when it's cold. There's a level to style but if I have to live in a body that's oversensitive, im surely not dressing in stiff pants or blazers to appeal to any gaze- male or female/neurotypical or neurodivergent. if I can even get out of the house feeling comfortable then that should be good enough
I relate in a different way! I dress because I see my identidy in the way I express myself and my clothing style. So I can go from one end of the spectrum to the other depending on my mood, but that mood isnt based on who I want to attract or anything. I just wear what makes me feel happy.
@@katherinedipierro8383that sounds like a really good balance between functionality and style, really smart!
Don't worry too much about it. Most everyday people aren't that concerned with this stuff. Sure there's situations where you're supposed to wear certain clothing. business clothes for an office job, black for a funeral, but this obsession with gazes and fashion trends stuff only affects a certain portion of society and they aren't the sort of people you'd want to know anyway.
I literally have a test - the "high kick test" for any skirts or pants I wear (I'm Audhd) if I can't do a high kick comfortably, then I ain't wearing it. Do I do high kicks often in life? No. But I must always be ready for side quests!
And bras are evil.
I'm very similar to you! I dress tp express my inside (colorful, whimsical, nature, fairy, magical) and at the same time I dress for function and comfort (loose fitting, breathable, comfy, etc).
Reminds me how some people won’t be friends with people who don't match their aesthetic because they don’t want to post them on social media
Most of my female friends tell me I look super unaesthetic and think posting me on their stories is cute 😭
that’s insane 😭 if people do that, they should genuinely seek therapy
Wait, this is seriously a thing??? I'm in geniune shock.
same pfp omg
I was loving this until it came to the beige part. I'm autistic and I had a beige phase a few years ago in the past with decorating my room (yes before it was trendy to) because multi colors would overstimulate me to no end. But with that being said, I'd say the beige aesthetic now is associated with millennials rather than neurotypicals but there of course are always exceptions. I don't think that strips them of their personality though...
As an autistic woman I feel super uncomfortable in bright colours. Black also tends to be seen as a poetic & magical colour, which also fits into the neurodivergent side.
22:13 I have to respectfully disagree. I want to acknowledge that you said you would be making massive generalizations, but this one struck me wrong.
While it could be for the male gaze, it could equally be a valid form of self-expression. I mean, imagine if all these descriptions were applied to a Drag-queen instead of a straight passing woman in a grocery store. That shit would be fuckin epic, even if it's impractical, uncomfortable, or even uncalled for.
Yes, a woman would likely attract some male attention as a result of being so glamorous, but still we need to be cognizant of our assumptions of others. Our assumptions of others, our assumptions of those we don't know, says more about ourselves and our experiences.
It's not a bad thing, per se. It can be protective, but unchecked our assumptions can easily become the rationale behind toxic stereotypes and not recognizing the individuality of an individual. No matter how similarly things may seem.
When it comes to others, we just see an aesthetic. And while an aesthetic says something, it doesn't have any meaningful connection to someone's values- or what you (or I) assume their values to be.
Should it even mean to us if it is a Drag queen, a queer woman or a cis-het woman is at the grocery store, DMV, or the movies dressed in ways that makes them feel beautiful or confident? Even if it doesn't particularly match the occasion?
I mean I still wear hoodies and pants in 90 degree weather ( sensory issues, but many people assume it's insecurities. Naw dude, I'm just trying to be my version of comfortable and not to tweak out 😭)
If you saw me in a hoodie in the middle of summer, clearly not dressed practically, what assumptions would you make about me? Do your assumptions even hold weight? It's all the same I'm just trying to say, it doesn't have to be about the male gaze or even anyone else- even if it fits the male gaze.
Oftentimes, it makes me uncomfortable to have people staring at me when I'm dressed in a way of self-expression. I doesn't mean I'm not confident, but it also doesn't mean I want extra attention.
I feel confident because I am choosing to authentically express myself and my self-care, not because people give a shit how I look. My confidence and joy comes before the attention, the attention is a byproduct.
It depends heavily on my energy level, but sometimes I want to get dress-up and experiment even for mundane tasks because I will *NEVER* dress up otherwise. That makes me sad because I never get the opportunity to externalize 😭
I don't dress up when I invite people over. I don't go to the club or parties. I haven't been to an event in 2 years (it was a wedding), and I can't dress up at home alone because then I can't lay down or be cozy I'll fuck up everything I've done.
I, and I assume many others, only intend to enjoy our means of self-expression/care
So, (with love, I'm not mad lol) let us have our grocery glam/exotic/expression moment goddammit 😭
And I know it's not all about the grocery store, or camping, or whatever I said earlier. It's just that I believe if we're not careful, we can neglect experiences that have brought others to express themselves in such ways that we may not relate to, leading us to become the truly superficial ones.
If my girl can go hiking in glam (pray for her ankles), I say huzzah lol. That's something to be celebrated. Because a part of the "male gaze" is also assuming "it's"(whatever "it" is) about men, or male centered thinking. :)
I could go on, but I don't mean to ramble. All the best ❤
When looking for a partner, it's really important for me to meet someone who I can be unapologetically myself with
omg irene never fails to make videos addressing and articulating things i’ve always thought about but never seen discussed anywhere, i’m so eager for this one
🥹 it took me literal months to find the words to talk about this, felt like trying to detangle a bunch of yarn 🧶
No seriously everytime
I am amazed too! Her video are so well articulated, researched and thought through.
RIGHT?!
Ong
Being disabled and neurodivergent, I definitely get screwed over in transactional relationships. My currency is completely different. It doesn’t mean it’s bad. I offer a lot of hard won wisdom from going through a lot of hardship and trauma in my life, a lot of empathy, etc. But I can’t drive, I don’t have much money because I’m on disability, I can’t do things where I need to walk or stand a lot. But what I offer is often devalued.
This is bringing back so many memories of college for me. Specifically a party I wish I’d never gone to. I thought these girls were almost friends with me, like I was so close that I could be their friend with a little more work.
So when I found out the girl I was closest to was having her 21st birthday party and I had never been invited I was a little sad. But as she and another girl talked about it on the bus next to me, I sat silently until I got an invite after I congratulated the girl. But something felt off. Like I wasn’t meant to be invited and only was because I overheard about the party. But I went anyway.
The girls wouldn’t even look at me, and when they did it was with that judging up-and-down my body stare like I was wearing something ridiculous. Like I was gross or embarrassing.
All of the men at the party were super nice. I think this is when I started to seek out male friendships and older women over young women friends. There wasn’t this same exchange or value system based on my appearance. Granted, I doubt any of the guys saw me as a romantic interest at all, so that would probably have drastically changed how they treated me. But they just treated me like a normal person at a party. (Except for one drunk guy who hit on me and I didn’t like him-especially once he realized I wasn’t interested and avoided me just like the girls did).
These “mean girls” didn’t dress like the stereotype but they were also in the honors program and had that other type of social value. I’ve seen it throughout my life as I tend to end up in groups with highly intelligent or overly praised for their brains people and often there are girls who have an academic vibe but are also not nerdy and are incredibly mean.
Girl the story of the friends never inviting you out again after saying no thanks to things... hits hard. My college roommate and I were good friends until she got mad I wouldn't do illegal stuff 🤧 with the group and then I got upset bc they wouldn't let me THE SOBER ONE drive us home after the club and she literally almost wrecked. Haven't heard from her since but I definitely deserve an apology for putting my life in danger like that.
And I went home in the middle of the night during the last sleepover I went to. Still friends with her but she won't let me forget I dipped out bc I needed to sleep in my own bed 🙃
A real friend wouldn't get upset about or keep bringing up a situation where you had to take yourself out of an uncomfortable situation and would respect your boundaries to begin with
That friend just sounds insecure rather than admitting their behavior is stupid and dangerous.
Dude I had a friend who took me out to a cool playground she found. I had no idea where it was and when we got there, I had no idea how to get back home. She then decided she wanted to drive (we were on bikes) to her horse that was like half an hour away. I asked her if she can being me home first cause I wanted to go home but had no idea where to go. She didn't want to and told me to either go with her or she would leave me here alone. She apparently did this with my other friend aswell who ended up having to ask strangers for directions cause our "friend" just left her stranded. Some people are just so fucking selfish
I never understand why some people need to pressure someone into doing illegal activities. Drinking, smoking etc. ofc they're technically not illegal, but I've been in situations where my "friends" would tell me that I have to do it alongside with them... "If you don't do think then I won't be friends with you" makes me so upset.
as someone w anxiety based insomnia that last bit about needin to sleep in ur own bed is SO real! i literally cant fall asleep if its not my own bed(ik this bc my parents were divorced and every weekend i would have to sleep at my Gmas house, bc my dad lived w her, and barely get any sleep)
I have to wear neutral athleisure because the colorful and bold clothes wash me out and feel overstimulating.
I think this is more about personal style and style essence than the neurodivergent gaze. I'm just not attracted to vibrant colors in clothing or my home. It hurts my eyes a little bit. I think you can still tell a lot about me based on things other than my ability to enjoy what to you feels like self-expression but to me feels like visual clutter.
Also, I’m not sure I understand the connection between the male gaze vs the female gaze and the neurodivergent gaze vs the neurotypical gaze. I’m probably just not educated enough on what those mean in this context. I would love to see another video where you dive deeper into what you mean by each term and the assumptions we’d need to make in order to understand the connection.
I also think that as neurodiverse people that we perhaps somehow still have a stronger connection to our inner child and that this influences our 'gaze'. Children are naturally expressive with their interests, whether that's animals or certain toys or clothes or arts and crafts, and they will make it an obvious part of their lives and/or style/decor. As I've progressed in my unmasking journey, I have noticed I've gone back to some childhood interests/joys that I had lost, like writing (bc fantasy) and scrapbook journalling (bc crafting) and circle skirts (bc feeling like a princess).
We haven’t pruned those synaptic connections, the child within us is still alive
I super agree with this! Funnily enough, I've also been going back to childhood interests since discovering I'm on the neurodivergent spectrum.
o.o
Interesting! ❤
Like someone above said we do retain neural connections that neurotypicals have pruned after childhood, also we have much higher levels of endogenous DMT than a NT, and I'm sure that helps our creativity and whimsy ...
I'm confused as to who came up with this concept.... Neurodivergent and I can go from wearing one color to wearing 3 different prints at a time . I go from wanting my space to be minimal to the complete opposite end my days a lot of people are intimidated by because a lot of people think either I'm angry or deep in thought my head down eyes up 🤷🏻... Again it generalizing like you you said ....I do however believe there's a clear definition between the female gaze and the male gaze for sure
As a neurodivergent person, in my opinion, I feel like a good amount of this video is about the ego and a person's awareness of their own ego.
I personally really enjoy getting dressed up, even for sometimes inappropriate situations. I overdress a lot lol. The process, the result, etc., it’s a special interest. but I don’t typically do it to “look good enough.” I often like wearing a pencil skirt to a job where I can get away with jeans just because I can. It’s for me. But if I’m not feeling it I wear the jeans.
Idk, I differ from you in that I’m neurodivergent as well, but I value what my partner’s goals are and what he does for work just as much as his personality, quirks, and how we connect with each other. I think it’s because I’ve made my special interest into my job, and I’m very goal-oriented when it comes to that. He’s similar to me in that way, and I love seeing the effort and creativity he puts into his work as well. We’re both excited about what we do,so I’m interested in someone’s job if they are as well.
As a ND/autie i look at jewelry and other non-organic shapes and pieces first, then at textures and overall shapes, only noticing colors and genders last. This whole video is bizarre to me.
You’ve made the point in a lot of your videos that neurodivergent people are more honest and better at handling conflict, curious if this based on personal experience and/or is there research about this? I feel like I am still healing a lot of trauma responses so I never relate when you make those points. My fawning and people pleasing make me feel less ND in the terms you describe
Damn the action orientated neurotypical observation is spot on! Ive overhead so many conversations that focus ONLY on current plans, past plans and future plans
Not only did that one woman make the kids toys beige but she almost certainly made them more toxic for her kid!
Yes, I agree. It is one thing to have a beige room and it is another thing to spray paint toys beige! It would only make sense if it was for a photography studio and they wanted backgrounds to be neutral.
What if NTs are just trying to control their social experience in the same way NDs try to control their “safe spaces” by limiting overstimulation?
So when they see someone acting different than expected, it stresses them out and they want to remove it from their experience or change it?
I mean, NDs do this too, mostly as a learned skill/habit to limit boredom, judgment, overstimulation, etc… but still.
So right
I'm so guilty of being a LuluLemon girly because their tags come out completely and I can always trust that the texture isn't going to be overstimulating LOL. My overstimulating colorful outfits are for the 2 hours I leave my house for coffee and friends.
I wear athleisure too. This video was talking about a concept based off of generalized social observations and not meant to be taken in personally!
Wait, the tags come out? Shit. I might have to check that out...
@@thethoughtspot222 Yes I totally get it! I can totally resonate to the video :)
I meant to say that I am always struggling between choosing comfort or expression, it was amusing for me to reflect on while watching.
@@eliapricot2518 sometimes you can get both! it’s really hard to find but there’s loopholes
@@doodleplayer4014 They do! I'm sure there are good dupes out there, but with all of their clothing items if you pull on the tag it comes out completely.
Sometimes it takes a little bit of coaxing, but they sew the tag in very delicately so that the entirety of it and the thread comes out without harming the actual seam they attach it to. No icky itchy leftover tag or thread is still hanging on too!
Recently they have been coming out with some more bright and funky colors too! I'm always on the lookout for more unique designs.
For me, I love having art in the walls or decoration but in a simple way, when there are so many things or colors, I got overstimulated and being peaceful in my bedroom is so important for me, it’s my safe space
28:15 the bar must be low for me tbh because If I love someone I just love them because I love ALL of them, flaws and faults included. I don’t care about how wealthy they are or what job they have. I love them even if we don’t have all of the same things in common.
I love my girlfriend. Even if I have times where we don’t talk much (I get burnt out easily, and I have to often choose between “talk to people” or engage in special interests/hobbies/important things), I will always love her.
explains why its so hard to make any fulfilling friendships or relationships, this external surface level focus creates an entirely different framework of processing the world so anyone who doesn't exist within that framework essentially doesn't exist, its assimilation or ostracisation.
@@bedhead-studio i get you :( the most we can do is find likeminded individuals atleast, so that within our own spaces we can exist as we are and be seen for ourselves
@@bedhead-studio im rooting for you :3 not sure if its of much solace but we can talk here atleast?
If anyone has any tips for this, I’m all ears. When starting new friendships I realise a few months down the track that we’re not using the same currency and can’t make any meaningful connections; our relationships are most-often miscommunications that lead to us drifting apart… we just don’t value the same things.
@@mistressmelia same here! the only advice i can currently give ,as cliche as it may sound, is to deliberately seek out places and people who you know from the get go will have what your currency values. but i understand it becomes far more intricate and delicate as time progresses, i myself still kinda have this issue and i havent lived for too long so i lack the experience to give a good answer aside from that. i do hope atleast this thread provides some form of kinship as we are all struggling with the same issue
As a neurodivergent person, I'm definitely more attracted to geniune expression and individuality over conformity. It makes sense why I'm drawn to uniqueness and people that stand out, as those people are often being truer to themselves than those that blend in. I know better than to judge a book by its cover, but peoples' expression does tend to allign with their value system, at least in terms of their authenticity and level of comfort in themselves. I also appreciate what you said about the systems people are willing to partake in, what systems they benefit from, and how that is reflected in their presentation. That really resonated with me, since I opt out of most of those systems myself and tend to get pinned as an outsider because of it. Thanks for putting words to something I couldn't, and thanks for breaking this down in such a nuanced way. I wouldn't have thought of a neurotypical vs neurodivergent gaze, per se, but it makes so much sense when you put it in those terms
Right side has my attention 😂🩷🩷🩷🩷
Great video, a lot of your points made sense from experiences I’ve had in my life being Neurodivergent / having ADHD. The point about how neurotypical dwelling more on accomplishments and how successful you are seems so true from the experiences of trying to connect to others and having difficulties with it. Though when a person was more on my wavelength; we would connect and be able to communicate easily. The story about being invited to hang out with those girls and feeling a bit different and not being able to connect was so relatable to me as well. ✨
With peace and love I’m going to be deleting all of the “but not all___” comments.
Please take the time to watch my disclaimer.
I gotta be honest your videos, they have helped. I don't watch as much cause of nursing school and so on.
How do you have the ability to go through all the comments? I am actually slightly impressed you can even regulate the comment section like that. It's not like you have small UA-cam channel either.
Well in any case thank you, as I appreciate the lifechanging work you've done.
It was very helpful to learn especially of autistic burnout, and how to better handle myself from the burnout.
The skills to manage myself -- I work with psyche patients so it can be very stressful -- in and out of social skills is much harder to me than the crazy grunt work of nursing and critical analysis that comes with it.
@eloiishya UA-camrs can block certain words from their comments e.g. Tomska blocked his address so if someone posts it it gets deleted
@@desertels5119 this would make the most sense, it seems efficient, otherwise I have no idea how anyone has time to read thousands of comments
I’m so thankful yt (tho it’s many flaws) allows we neurodivergent people to interact and not feel so alone and alien 👽, in a neurotypical world ❤. Only 21 mins in and I’m floored. I relate so much.
As a nd woman in my late 20’s I’m starting to feel more comfortable lifting the mask and being respectfully blunt & not self abandoning/people pleasing. It’s so freeing to honour and value myself & needs first. Being blunt and honest with people is what’s best for you. Good people will respect that. a fast way to see who they really are. If someone can’t take the first “no” & manipulates/guilt trips you to get you to do stuff you’ve expressed you don’t want to; they don’t value you. This was a news flash to me lol. I appreciate all the great work you do 🥰
A beautifully articulated video as always!! These videos give me courage to keep thinking the way I like to think. This video I think explains why queer and trans and gender nonconforming people are more likely to be neurodivergent! We’re better able to reflect and be real about who we are and what we want out of life
This!
This this this!!
Absolutely this. Well said.
This makes alot of sense as an autistic person why i get rejected by neurotypicals AND autistics. My morals and interests dont align with neurotypicals and their social needs. My autistic special interests though are fashion and aesthetics, so other autistic people think im usually really rude because i have a neurotypical aesthetic in terms i am fascinated by the newest aesthetics bc of my autism
I feel you on this one! I noticed my aesthetics usually attracted NT people and they felt really confused when they actually got to know me. Likewise, I wanted to meet ND people but I feel like I didn’t look like I’d be someone they’d get along with
I'm autistic and I love fashion and aesthetics
Ngl i would definitely be a lil repelled by you as an ND person but only out of self preservation, but as soon as I know you a little deeper, idd BFF you!! So dont be discouraged! Enjoy what you enjoy!!
Yes! People have told me that my environment is “too busy” but it’s a reflection of who I am as a person. I do appreciate that my treatment has helped me be more organized and clean, but it didn’t change my preferences/aesthetic.
I collect textiles, handicrafts, costumes, plants, and have a lot of pets, so that is what you see.
That dulling down of the kid’s stuff was so saddening. Primary colors! They’re primary! Ahhh!
I think people rocking their own style despite societal expectations points to them accepting everyone‘s individuality as they do accept their own.
I have a lot of sensory issues so most revealing clothing tends to cause me issues. Eg, strappy tops, tank tops, racerbacks, stuff with cutouts make my shoulders itch epically when they move around. Crop tops and rolled hems make me pick at my stomach. Low-rise pants and skirts always feel like they're falling down and I end up fiddling with it too often. Short skirts and shorts let my thighs rub together so I can't wear them. I can't wear accessories like necklaces, watches, rings and piercings cause I know i would pick at it. I used to try to fit in and wear what was popular but I gave up last year of high school and I won't bother buying something knowing that it will be uncomfortable to me. I've finally found a style that fits me which is finding 1 shirt I like, going back to the store and buying 6 of the same shirts and wearing it in perpetuity.
I too have experienced not being invited again by people bc I didn’t conform to their group or better yet I struggle with others. I would rather be myself then pretend to be someone I think they rather be around and that always got me in trouble. Being myself all the way got me ostracized or ignored bc I deviant from what people expect. When I spoke to others I rather talk about my interests which always were niche, unpopular or “childish”. So it’s very hard to form long lasting relationships others. Unless it’s about kids and money (I’m married and have a child and money is always a an issue) it’s hard to relate to many millennials. It seems that’s all they want to talk about (or at least around me). Small talk was something that i desperately tried to master and yes it got much easier to talk to a variety of people however it didn’t guaranteed genuine connections. When it comes to interpersonal relationships it’s very lacking and I feel like I still treat them like I did when I was in highschool-very immaturely and I still struggle with social cues- and unfortunately I only make friends with NDs while the NTs I had as friends no longer are. I think it’s bc of what u said that many treat relationships as transactional and many or most of my friendships were that bc I thought that was how it was suppose to be 😅
With regards to people putting a lot of effort into their appearance for "casual" activities 22:41 I wanted to add that there's another side to the coin for alternative people where putting a lot of time into one's outward presentation is how we further deviate ourselves from the norm. I know for myself when I spend hours on my appearance--whether that be for an outfit or makeup--even when it's not the most comfortable or practical it always helps me feel I'm truly expressing myself and makes a stand to those around me as it's not perceived as "normal". I agree with the original point where people using their time to cater their looks to the norm says something about their value system, but I think that the practicality of your appearance doesn't always denote being confident in your ideals or sense of self! 💚💚
You just explained my entire social experience my whole life. Wowza! I’m a “plain Jane” aesthetic which I suppose fits the nice girl, but honestly I have NEVER understood clothes or style of fashion lol. It’s like a different language to me 😂 just give me a comfortable shirt and some loose jeans. So ND of me.
Omg that woman did her boyfriend’s apartment so dirty. She took a magic eraser to his LIFE! His apartment was so nice! She turned it into a sad airport hotel!
How do these points apply to lesbians? Specifically on the point of women who tend to dress up and do makeup in a way that would be objectively attractive to men but are femme lesbians? I also think this general conversation can teeter on something tricky as it can be vaguely related to the way men judge women based on external appearance/outfits but it’s interesting to hear.
i think...i'm glad i don't have tiktok...
Dressing for the "neurodivergent gaze" takes so much time and effort. Id love to dress as a goth 17th century pirate prince and dye my hair bright red etc but more often than not its just easier to wear a simple dress (like the one sabrina carpenter is wearing in that picture u put on your video cover) or simple pants like those other skinny big boobed girls are wearing
All these gazes are basically about trying super hard to do societal expectations vs not. And sometimes not trying will look like you're trying because that's what's comfortable for you, and sometimes queer ND weirdos (/pos) will try hard for survival, and sometimes trying hard will look counterculture-y because of the people you hang out around or the message you want to project. But there's still a pattern and all the gazes connect
This is a good video, theres a classic saying that "Looks can be deceiving and its true" looks are very decieving, the people who look intimidating can be some of the nicest friendliest people ever, and people who look nice and friendly, can be the meanest and most toxic people ever! I also agree with the assimilation things with neurotypicals. I'm an ND Male, and I do see lots of NT males trying to put on a masculine facade, thats unauthentic, and similarly with NT women who try too hard to put on a feminine facade.
With ND men and women, we tend to stay true to ourselves, and we can even come off as tradtionally non-masculine, or non-feminine, and this definitely causes conflict with NTs.
People can only meet you as deep as they met themselves. And many people it’s not very much
I'm always in all black but usually wearing something that doesn't match the theme of the event/work/get together
Haven't finished the video yet but I have to say that before I lose it. I went to a three day trip with a travel agency recently. We were all in the bus, in the same hotel, eating breakfast and dinner together, went on a cruise... There were so many interesting people!
There was a lady that literally reminded me a fairy, with the way she was dressed so colorfully and smiling and just enjoying the trip to the max. There were shy people too, like myself. Everyone at some point was asking everyone about what they do, where they work, whether or not they have kids, what did they study, etc etc.
And I never did. I'm not saying this to brag, it just never occurred to me, even after they had asked me the same thing. I don't care. I've never cared. What someone does for job or other information gathering like that has never been my go to for conversation with new people.
What I care most about is how they experience this moment, this trip, this food, this cruise, this hotel, what stories they gather whenever we're not all together. Did they go up and see the view from the ancient castle? Wasn't it wonderful? How was the beach? Did the dive from the side of the cruise ship? How was that?
These are the things I care about. I don't care about anyone's achievements, I don't want anything from them except their stories and their company and what we're sharing right now.
And you know, things like jobs and stuff get sprinkled in the conversation either way, you're going to learn it whether or not you ask because they will have a story to tell you about how such situation is similar to another experience they had at work or with kids or with daily life. So I don't know why it's everyone's go to to ask about these things first thing when meeting people. But I wouldn't be surprised if subconsciously it has something to do with status and opportunity gathering from every person you meet. I've just never been like that.
I think it’s the last part + also a sort of “default question” but I agree, it feels kind of judge mental and slimey….
As an autistic person myself I do think it's important to remember that neurotypical people do get a lot of value out of all that social stuff. I think it's pretty easy to become cynical about NT motivations if you forget that. For example when NT have smalltalk about meaningless topics none of them intrinsically care about, it's not because they're just going through the motions to safe face, they actually get something valuable out of the act of talking which makes the topic secondary. I've felt pretty hurt in the past discussing the topic of small talk with my NT partner and his family because I felt like "oh so you don't care about what I'm saying then why do you act like you do?" but my partner explained it's because they do care about me as a person even though they don't care about my opinion on the weather or whatever.
I think NT people are able to read between the lines those things about who someone is and what they stand for that we ND/autistic people would prefer to/need to talk about more directly.
Similarly when NT people follow trends etc I don't think they're just trying to fit in I think the fact that many other people are also doing that thing adds genuine value and enjoyment to it for them.
Woahhh I’ve always felt alienated in high school even when I tried to dress to fit in! I share your exact experience with groups of girls too. I’ve doubted myself but this was very reassuring. You’re so good with describing exactly your experience it makes so much sense! Thank you so much for this video
15:30 You explained my issue with my coworker honestly. She activates my sense of justice rage because she genuinely expects people to do emotional labor for her while she shows little regard to peoples feelings. She’s always so rude, says judgmental shit
, snappy, doesn’t say thank you for the simplest things and god forbid she ever listens to any suggestion I have yet she expects me to always be nice to her, not hold grudges and just….basically do things HER away.
One time I just swapped places of stuff right next to each other and she found it and SCREAMED at me and lectured me on how I always mess things up??? She’s just an awful person who just seems to lack empathy and she whines how she has no friends and how no one likes her. It’s infuriating for me, I can’t just ignore her antics like others are. She genuinely goes out of her way to be rude to me by commenting on stuff I do differently and butting into my conversations to make snarky comments.
As an autistic man, I see men do this too. Dudes & jocks are mostly, if not all neurotypical, and the neurodivergent men are "softer", "nerdy" and "gayer", and tend to dress in their own style. It's kind of funny how much my friends and I care a lot about loyalty and authenticity. Character. I'm so glad to see this discussed online! :^D
This video is sooo interesting!! I really resonated when you talked about being able to bounce around different friend groups and get along with people, but not officially being a part of the friend group. I’ve always been that way since I get along with everyone, but usually only keep one or two friends very close to me at one time. Being a part of a large group of friends just seems daunting!!! Even in my heavy masking days, I never felt part of a “group”. Just had one friend that belonged to their own group and I would be invited to hang out *sometimes*.
Omg same
Beware for people like my mom: The narcissist wearing bright colours to lure you in. Narcissists are all concerned with how they appear- their mask- and will only show you who they actually are once they feel like they've got you secured (aka: you can't threaten their social status anymore). My mom is very nice yes but not KIND. She will screw you over in a heartbeat if it benefits her. Remember to have discernment and to set boundaries based on the effects their actions had on you- not be endlessly forgiving because 'they're just incompetent- they'll learn, I just have to stay and help them' or 'they didn't intend it in that way'. I went no-contact with my mom for a good reason. Stay safe out there.
Irene you always have just the right words to express the unspoken!!!! People in my life can always tell whether or not I chose my own outfit because my priority is always myself-is it comfortable, is it pretty like a flower or tree or vines, is it not something you see every day, etc. Trends are NEVER on my mind (drives my family crazy). I’ve always been this way, and I’ve always been autistic 🥰 So happy to be me 🥰
I kinda feel like a lot of the ways you described neurotypical people are examples of stunted neurotypical people. I think all people really want the same things at heart and it's probably the case that a lot of neurotypical people find it harder to shed the ideals that have been instilled in them than neurodivergent people who never fucked with those ideals to begin with. Anyone who is dating someone for clout or feels the need to post their entire life on social media for validation is just a person who has some growing to do I think.
a lot of ND people can’t partake in those ideals even if we wanted to!
i love this video as this divide is very much real, and is truly more than just aesthetics, and you describe it so clearly it's easy to grasp!
(don't censor this comment pls?😭) however, i don't think this divide is necessarily between NTs/NDs, as there are plenty deeply authentic NT people as well as NDs who indeed act superficial and unnecessarily judgy, just based on a different value system than typicals
the biggest turnoff for me actually are people who don't even try remaining open to other people and their hidden potentials after they finished categorizing and boxing them in based on whatever category system they may use
we could call this divide essentialists vs potentialists or sumn
You can't express yourself if you're following others :)
This is such a mad cool theoretical viewpoint!
I've love how original the thought behind it is.
i’m so glad you talked about your experience with that group of girls! as an autistic person who can’t drink, i relate to the struggle of having to choose my own health/level of overstimulation over strengthening bonds with people. for other neurodivergent people struggling with their own sense of self surrounding friendships, just know you will find people who will accept you for your needs, sensory or otherwise. you are enough on your own!
Being neurodivergent with a “nice body” is so confusing for people and even myself. Like I see how I could benefit from the baddie aesthetic but I just can’t bring myself to dress in that way. 😭 A guy friend even told me he doesn’t understand why I dress “that way” when I have a nice body. I also realized how much more confident I am with the way I dress in New York than I am in L.A. (hometown).
God, all of my sisters are so neurotypical and their houses are beige or black/white and plain. They're all neat freaks too. And I'm the messy one with anime figures and shelves upon shelves of books and video games and movies, and weird art in my house... my kid and I love to show off our interests because it makes us happy. I'm 45 and have tons of stuffed animals on my bookshelves, simply cause they're adorable. Whereas, I have no clue what any of my sisters are into. As far as I'm aware not a single one of them has any hobbies or interests aside from shopping and spending time with their partners. Where I've been willingly single for nearly 9yrs now just raising my weird little kid and being happy spending time with him playing Fortnite and watching anime and building a bond with my kid that none of them will ever have with their own children. It's crazy how much perspective I just got from this. I used to do the whole trying to fit in shit, now I just don't care anymore. My kid thinks I'm the coolest (and he's 14) and he doesn't keep any secretes from me and trusts me and that makes me know I've not totally failed as a parent.
unwarranted comment from a stranger: i get a sense of deep bitterness you have towards your sisters. I'm sorry if they ever made you feel less than them - I've had a lot of that in my life from my family. retorting that they won't have a personal relationship like yours shows you have room for personal growth. Maybe you're past changing, but i hope that spite won't rub off on your kid and torture his mind in the future. i couldn't think of a better way to say that, but man, that part of your comment rubbed me the wrong way.
can you pleaseee adopt me?? i promise to be a good kid and sister 🙏🙏
@@kiniyini No, no bitterness towards the sister with the kids. She & I get along great. The other two sisters however I've pretty much disowned for other unrelated to this post reasons.
I think you really nailed this and helped me concisely identify how I've felt for years but never fully understood.
As a neurotypical man, I always found it odd that I was unattracted to girls dressing for the male gaze, and was more drawn to girls dressing for the feminine gaze..but like you said, there are multifaceted aspects about how people dress that are indicative of their personality, their worldview, their individuality, their core values etc, and now I have a greater understanding and awareness to myself and why I feel how I feel.
Thanks for all your insights
I avoid groups who value people based on their willingness to comform to external things. I'm looking for value based groups.
It makes me sad and uncomfortable when people judge by appearances. I have of course learned to be able to do it to some extent but I try to not use that classification system unless people show me they fit certain stereotypes.
Personally outfits are a kind of special interest for me. I use clothing to express my personality creatively. I have definitely experienced being treated like a mean girl based on the way I look especially when I was younger and had blonde hair for a while. It was not fun. So I have become careful around judging books by their cover.
9:37 I will say, I don’t mask by dressing. But I don’t look like the “mean girl” or the “nice girl”. On average, I don’t have the energy to dress up and also don’t like wasting good outfits on uneventful days, so I wear my “lounge” clothes instead. HOWEVER, you can tell stuff from it, like the things I enjoy such as hello kitty. Internally, I look like the “nice girl” but extreme.
I like to wear clothes that don’t make me want rip my skin off, that’s really the only prerequisite
Notice how the right side is cooler
for reals though
my right or your right?
@@scarylion1roarthe side with color and personality
@@scarylion1roarWe're all watching the video. We all have the same right
@@bedhead-studio I’m sure your personality is a redeeming quality ☺️
Am I the only one who had a blue haired mean girl experience?
everyone has the power to be mean! even if you are empathetic and nice. humans are complex
Yeah when I was growing up and still today, the alternative and fashionable dressing girls are just as mean to me as the plain dressed beige lululemon girls lol. So I can't completely relate to this. I do agree the right side of the thumbnail looks much cooler though. When people dress fun it's like free stims lol.
As a neurodivergent person who dresses about 50/50, I love dressing sensually, it makes me feel super confident and unrestricted. I'm talking I'll wear lingerie while I'm home alone all the time, would that be considered dressing for the male gaze? Probably🤷♀️ but it makes me feel like a million bucks even when I'm the only one to see it. Depending on the day I easily could be pinned as a "mean girl" based on what I wear and how I look. I hope girls don't turn their backs on me bc of my style. Maybe I'm an outlier but if people assumed my values, boundaries, and sense of identity based on my clothing, they'd definitely be dead wrong. Now my house on the other hand is an explosion of color and random junk I consider personally valuable (like a crystal bowl full of acorns I gathered💀). I love the conversation and it definitely has its points, but the age old saying of "Don't judge a book by its cover" is something I hope people keep in mind for my own selfish sake.
I'm way too boring for the right side but I'm looking forward to this video!
I'm way too boring for either lol
You always have unique ideas for exploration and this was super intriguing: I concur about being unable to answer certain types of questions because the potential answers don’t hold the real value for me 🙂🍀
The problem I have is not fitting in with either. Because I'm often too oppressed to be afforded the ability to survive while fully rocking the neurodivergent gaze, but too neurodivergent to be okay with suppressing myself fully, and I end up in this weird middle ground where I want to look safe and approachable yet dangerous and ready to swing my chain in your face at a moments notice but ONLY so that I won't get unalived by someone who wants to kill or hurt me for being a queer trans homeless person.
Some of the other punks and powerless street people at the bottom rungs of the economy love me, but the rest of society is fucking terrified of me, which sucks, because I would like to appeal to the neurodivergent more but without being treated as a scary threat to be ostracized. PTSD is a nightmare even when you get it in remission.
And then the really hurtful thing is nobody has solutions. They just tell me to go to the same systems that oppress me over and over and then when those don't help they treat me as if I'M the problem but I've already tried everything I can think of and still can't find a safe place to live with people who share my values.
Gosh the thing about being told you're the problem when the system fails you is so relatable 🙁
Not a fan of what's being called "mean girl" . However, if one wants to hyper-genderize him/herself, have fun with it, play, celebrate! The queens out there get it. Love to all the queens out there