It’s terrible the lack of accessibility for a proper diagnosis in some countries. This is the main reason I believe a self diagnosis has to be respected, sometimes there’s no other option. I am in awe of the level of awareness adult neurodiverse folks are developing. Super thankful to every spokesperson reaching out with information and support.
Play fighting as a young autistic kid was so hurtful and confusing. It felt like no one else had to follow rules but I had a thousand rules I had to follow but no one would tell me the rules. As a sensory seeking kid I loved wrestling and physically fighting other kids but it would always end with me unintentionally hurting someone for real too.
Aw, I see that in my friend's child. She's playing and roughhousing with my children, but she doesn't get the signals that she's going too hard until they scream at her to stop. And then she's confused about why kids are always yelling at her, and my kids are saying "she's so rough, I always get hurt when she's there and she doesn't stop when I tell her to stop". Meanwhile she's confused about why, if everyone is horsing around, the scolding is only for her. I'll try to give my girls suggestions for making their body language very " loud", maybe that will help.
I LOVE banter in books/movies - possibly because it just fascinates me when done well - but I don't do it myself. I can write it, even, but I can't figure it out on the fly. What I DO like is intellectual banter - arguing back and forth about an idea. Because there it isn't personal (if you go to directly calling the other person a dumbass instead of explaining why you think the idea is wrong, then you're really outside the rules of the game). However, a lot of people don't do this, and I've had people get upset with me because they feel like I'm trying to dismiss them or the idea in question, when I'm really thinking "Huh - that's an interesting proposition. Let's jab at it and see if stands up!" I wouldn't DO this unless I thought the idea was worth talking about! But it's hard to convince them that I'd actually be fine with losing the argument as long as I lost on the basis of evidence, or at least a convincing bit of rhetoric....
That was me to a t as a kid. We were wrestling on a trampoline once at a friend's house and they all dog piled on top of me. I got mad and kicked my friend off the trampoline, breaking his arm. I made sure after that too not fight anyone even just for fun.
@@PirateQueen1720. Yes! I thought I wasn’t quick or witty, until I became involved in the world of ideas. I just don’t speak social banter!! I realize that academia is social and I don’t get that part, but logical arguments can’t be ignored or rejected. You can stick your nose up at them all you want, but sound research and reasoning stands on its own. People who reject facts and logic are the ones who look silly, in the world of ideas…not those who don’t act or dress like “everyone else. I’m so glad to learn it’s not everyone who values social rules, over everything. P.S. Excuse the punctuation error. I’m having an issue, where I can’t see what I’m typing or edit, without deleting everything, after the character I want to fix. Is this YT, or my device? Anyone else ever have this problem?
Specially relate to the not knowing when and how much or sometimes even what(like whats pertinent) to share. It has caused me so much embarrassment my whole life. I still cringe whenever I recall some of it(it was made clear to me that I over or under shared in retrospect after getting more new info).
Me too, so many embarrassing moments in my life due to this issue. It's the worst feeling to have shared something you thought was pertinent to the conversation, only to have someone staring back at you like "What are you even talking about"?
Very relatable. I work in a high demand IT help desk role for a law firm and 10 years ago, when I had just started, my biggest question was “how do I know what I’m _supposed_ to know. You never want to ask a question that will sew distrust when you’re the “expert”. (And starting to tell this story I’m already conflicted on how many other details to include.) You need that trust so you can ask more questions and find out what’s really going on. So often the user thinks it’s one thing and it’s really another. Eventually I learned I don’t have to know the name of literally every legal software tool an attorney/assistant/paralegal might use. Some are specialized to one’s area of law and I can’t just clam up when they tell me something I’ve never heard of is broken. I still have to ask the relevant questions and you get to know what to look out for even when you know little to nothing about the software you’re supporting in that moment. It would be ridiculous to expect that you know as much as an attorney when you haven’t studied law, but with my social deficits that wasn’t obvious to me.
I definitely relate to this. I often just stick to the observer role until I can kind of figure out the social norms. But I’ve had so many experiences where I can tell I over shared, or get elbowed to be quiet because apparently it wasn’t socially acceptable to say what I was actually thinking. 😂
@@VanessaAsayyeeeaaas😂😂😂 & on the other hand, being called brave or cool for “not caring about what others think” has been a kicker for me too, cuz I’m like 💭I just didn’t even know it was “a thing against the norm” 😅 People either find me to be someone who’s “refreshingly herself” or “just… what?”
I remember as a kid I would over share and the reactions I would get made me feel like it was a bad thing, so I stopped. When I got older, high school years, a friend told me "I know you're favorite colors, chips, etc, but I don't know you" as in how i grew up, and my pass. It was almost like I created a "2D" version of myself that helped me make others feel comfortable, but could never really feel emotionally connected, leading me to always feel burned out.
This is a great way of putting it, I had this same situation when I was younger. Everyone knew my special interests because I talked about them a lot, but I never shared other things that would have connected me to people. Struggles, morals, values, and emotions. It just didn't occur to me to share stuff like that, my world was mine and it didn't involve people my age.
Can definitely relate you just described my childhood and some adulthood, but not anymore I shield myself from people I detect have bad spirits and look at things like a chess match thinking ahead to avoid being hurt sometimes it works sometimes not but I keep going,so should you hope things are looking brighter for you now 🙏🏼
Ouch. This hit close to home. I was the oversharer until it bit me in the ass. I still am but I control what I say. I'd be too open and honest with some people and people used what I said to hurt me. Like me telling one kid I liked him and him making fun of me. Or people asking me how much I'd rate myself (in looks) and the response I gave was used to make fun of me. As if my number was so crazy high. I think I rated myself a 7 or 8 out of 10. The real shocker was when one guy was pestering me about liking me. I could tell he was joking because who would be interested in the weird teenage girl fangirling over random Djs with headphones always on. And when he asked me out I deadass responded with "If you want to, let's meet up for coffee. It's fine by me". I was serious. I wasn't joking. If he actually wanted to go out with me I would've been there five minutes earlier waiting for him for coffee. Of course he was joking and wasn't expecting me to say yes as he immediately was put on the spot by a crowd of Oooohhhhhhhs! I could tell he was joking because again... Who would be so interested in somebody like me? I'd only expect someone with the same level of insanity like me to do that. Not that level of stupidity. But I still get told I overshare. Because I go off like a train between long stations. Monkey no see, monkey just talk.
I've noticed that my son (diagnosed as a 7 year old), now 19, hasn't developed the crippling "social anxiety" many other undiagnosed family members have developed. I believe this is because knowing "why I don't fit", (also positive reinforcement from me & his grandma) made him accept himself enough to challenge all the bullies & "misunderstandings" that have driven the rest of us to eating disorders or substance abuse..
I'm a recently diagnosed as autistic grandmother. My late husband was autistic. My 3 sons (who are vehemently deny their reality) and at least 6 of my adult/teen grandchildren are also autistic. Only 2 of us have been professionally diagnosed, and we all have different opinions on being diagnosed. I didn't have my own kids diagnosed back in the 70s because they didn't have appropriate treatment for neurodivergent kids then. Now, I'm in a discussion with my adult grandchildren about their autistic teen cousins and siblings about whether being diagnosed is better than not being diagnosed and how to support them. Any advice? Suggestions?
@@luminarymani I just explained about the difference between neurotypical & neurodivergent brains, that one isn't better ir worse than the other, just different. I also played up how unique & lucky he was in different areas of his IQ scores. He was also very relieved to have an explanation as to why he struggled to fit in with his classmates & (mostly) prefered the company of adults. I hope this is useful to you..
Thanks so much for your response. I think it will be very useful in my conversations with my grandchildren. Even before being diagnosed, the kids often joked, "Grandmom, you're weird, and that's why I'm weird." I've told all of them that autism "runs in the family", so even if they aren't actually autistic, they will probably have inherited a quirk or two from their elders. It's kind of our family thing.
Tone and volume of voice is a HUGE trigger for me. I always get anxious when I hear raised voices, even if the people doing so are just being playful or bickering in a non-serious way, because in my past when the kinds of people I grew up around raised their voices, something bad was about to happen and it was probably going to involve me in a negative way. It's taken a long time to not get scared of people who talk loudly even when I know by the context that they're not angry
how are you going about getting used to it? mom has been having hearing trouble and it's gotten to where I end up cowering or having to take a walk any time she has a conversation with anyone else in the house because she can't control volume anymore xwx noise cancelling headphones mostly work but I've started stressing out just at the sudden change in pressure from the front door bc it means my auditory environment is going to be shite for the next 6-10 hours. x_x;
In Australia we call play fighting “banter.” I’ve had so many conversations with other autistics around how it’s so hard to navigate. If you pretend you understand, inwardly you feel hurt. If you try to keep up with it you always run the risk of hurting someone else. It’s usually safer to just not engage, but then you get labeled as not being able to “take a joke.” It’s so confusing.
Maybe we mask it by saying "yeah we have our own type of humor " Hahaa I'm thinking ways to mask my autistic things and spend hours trying to figure out some sh*t
When I was younger, my masks were tied to situations moreso than to specific people. I knew that being in a classroom meant behaving a certain way and that just hanging out with friends was a different thing. I remember a friend I was in a class with in middle school pointing out how totally different I was in versus out of class, and how much that threw me because all I could think was, "Isn't that how it's supposed to be, though???"
I want to say that part of being able to unmask around my partner is that once you're in a relationship of some kind with someone, there's a verbal contract in place. I can relax because they've said "I find you attractive and enjoyable to be around and I am actively signing up to spend more time with you because I want to spend more time with you." Then whenever I do question "are they actually enjoying this interaction/do they like me?" I can go back to the fact that there is a promise in place and reassure myself that they are with me for me and I am safe and okay.
You're lucky. I married the person I was most comfortable being me with. He made me happy. After that, all he ever did was try to change everything about me and was mean about everything he used to be okay with. Mind you, I'm a kind person. Literally nothing I did seemed to be "right" or "enough". I finally left with the tiny sliver of sanity I had left...but with nothing but the worst opinion of myself. I've been fighting depression ever since and don't dare try to connect with another person on that level ever again.
@@jecicox7605unfortunately you probably ended up with a manipulative person who hid their true self at the beginning. I’m sorry you went through that and hope your future is brighter.
I distinctly remember there being one person who straight-up did not like me at my first job out of college. As one of my managers, she went out of her way to assign me tasks that she knew I didn't like, made snide remarks about how I did the work (no matter how well it was actually done), and was just generally antagonistic. I thought I had her figured out... but then one day, I accidentally sent a text to her instead of my friend that described her by name and in less-than-flattering terms. (I was young and dumb. I called her a bitch.) The moment after I realized what I'd done, I started imagining all of the worst case scenarios about how this would play out. She could, at a minimum, write me up. She'd have been justified! But no. She laughed it off and carried on like nothing even happened. That woman terrified me from that point forward, because I realized I would never be able to predict her response to something.
I think that behavior from your ex-manager would make anyone a bit scared- to me that behavior implies she's hiding some strange intentions or a strange way of viewing your relationship. That's just freaky!
It works if it sounds sarcastic, which gets annoying when you actually mean what you’re saying and the other person starts laughing. I can dish it out but I can’t take it 😂 in the uk, they call it banter. It’s like taking jabs at what the other person does that is annoying but making it sound like a joke.
I can dish it out with some friends, but have no capacity to take it... and when I dish it out I always worry if it was harsh or hurtful because I can't tell (Edit: I will ask the if they're okay with the jab afterwards)
Playfighting has always been soooo stressful to me, because some people do it as a way to be horrible with plausible deniability, and it can be really hard to tell who is just teasing and who is genuinely being cruel.
totally agree--plausible deniability. I don't give people the benefit of the doubt. If I experience it as hostility, I react to it as hostility. In my book, it's an unacceptable behavior that should not be tolerated.
I got really frustrated and pissed off when I realised there is no algorithm(like in old timey video games; once you figure out the algorithm of a stage you can easily pass it every single time from then onwards) to human interpersonal interaction. That people's personalities(psychology defines this as a set of repeated common behaviours a person shows) are inconsistent. Specially morally. Its all arbitrary. No formula for it no matter how much I tried to make sense of it using logic and reasoning. I had all these rules and categories in my head and I remember feeling so helpless and like I wasted so much energy all these years learning what I _THOUGHT_ was how to deal with people and behave in society(but was actually just different masks for different situations).
I found NVC (Nonviolent Communication), and the principles are pretty accurate to how and why people behave how they do, if you study it deeply enough. But yes, you have to accept that people act emotionally, and learn the logic of emotions. Which is basically that people are always protecting themselves and trying to seek emotional safety. It's not arbitrary. It's just not rational logic, it's emotional logic.
I think so called "play fighting" is very often toxic. It is totally ok to not accept being called "stupid" all the time, even if it is presented like a joke.
I had two separate teachers--one in high school and one in college who called me Charlie, sarcastically, even though they knew my name was Steve. They didn't like the fact that I asked a lot of questions and occasionally disagreed with them. This went on all year. I was not being disruptive, just wanted better explanations. To me this was very unprofessional. I really didn't care that they didn't like me, or even that they treated me badly. They were just putting their own stupidity on display.
I’ve got one that might resonate. Not recognising a social pattern, so just trying every way possible to handle it (eg. Someone says something unkind, so you ignore it. They repeat it and you disagree agreeably. They repeat it again so you just try to laugh it off. And so on. Just basically trying all the video game functions until one of them works, but usually if you get it wrong more than once it freaks people out.
I think autistic people take insults too easily. It's one reason they get bullied; they don't know WHEN to fight back. I've been the same way most of my life, but finally did a housecleaning where I got rid of all the abusive people in my life. At least for me, this was a very good thing.
I have never heard someone talk about undersharing like this but dang that’s me! The not speaking in class until you’ve been called on thing reminds me of how when people are making plans in my general vicinity they assume I know I’m invited to the thing because I’m hearing them but like unless they literally invite me specifically, I don’t know if they actually mean to include me or not. It’s the most frustrating thing ever, for me and for other people. Ugh
i had that problem too, so when one of my former friends told me to invite myself i started inviting myself and the others started talking behind my back about how i was annoying for inviting myself and they never even told me they had a problem with me.
Omg this is so real! If there are plans I need express confirmation (preferably over text so I can go back and read it when I overthink and doubt that they want me there) that I am invited, a time, a place, a list of everyone who's going to be there, a description of what we're doing, if we're going to be eating, if so what food bc I need to know if it's okay for me to eat or if I need to bring my own, an approximate time that it will end (so I know how much I need to mentally prepare for it) and I need to be told what to bring (if there's anything like food that I'm expected to contribute). Oh, and I need to know what everyone else is wearing so I can plan my outfit based on that so I don't look out of place.
I've had a friend like that too, and I honestly, I don't think the girl calling you stupid was playfighting: I think she was putting you down and then trying to disguise it as a joke. Playfighting/banter is supposed to be fun for both parties involved - it's supposed to be both of you poking fun at things about each other that are kinda funny and dorky, in a harmless way. Not actually straight up insulting the other.
i really relate to what you're saying about choosing to prioritize self regulation over socializing. when i choose to socialize with someone it's almost never because i just "feel like being social," it's usually that i am wanting to nurture my relationship with that specific person/people and i'm doing so at the cost of not having that time to self regulate. no matter how much i care about someone, it's a drain on my energy to interact with them, with the sole exception of my partner--and even then a lot of the time i just want to sit quietly in the same room and not have him talk to me because that's too much.
I actually experience most of the things in this video, but i would like to expand on the whole undersharing vs oversharing. I actually think that one can lead to another both ways(undersharing->oversharing and oversharing-> undersharing) kind of like how autistic people can start out outgoing but due to social issues and your peer’s and older people’s social development, can lead you to being introverted. I used to overshare a lot and i still do but much less. Due to how people react to me oversharing, now i either undershare or never share as a reaction to past experiences with oversharing and how people received it.
Yes! As a child I was extroverted, but as a (very late, as in the past year) diagnosed 55 yo adult I am now very introverted (traumatized extrovert) from failing at NT social norms for so long
@@christophero1968 Almost the same for me (but I was diagnosed at 48 - I'm 50, now). Beyond what you say, though, I am an introvert with an extrovert mask. I'm so confused 🤪
I really appreciate you sharing this stuff- these social deficits are honestly the reason why I started pursuing a diagnosis in adulthood. I also feel like these difference were made so much more apparent by "entering the adult world" and being forced to speak for myself on a variety of issues. It becomes so much more obvious how out-of-sync you are once you step outside of your nuclear-family neurodivergent bubble as a young adult.
Ok I remembered another one. Being so used to assimilating to different cultures that you do it even when it’s not socially expected. Eg. Picking up an accent from the area you work on day 2. Or overly researching a friends cultural celebration to a point where it’s weird that you know that much without being a part of it. To be honest a lot of people appreciate this, and find it comforting and they see more of themselves in you and so treat you accordingly. But the usual situation I run into when this happens is another person witnessing me do this, and assuming one or both versions of me are fake. A lot of people don’t understand that fitting into the situation is often the best defence we have socially.
Absolutely, I hate being out of place or out to my depth, so I absorb accents like a sponge and research whatever event I'm attending way too much. I was bullied for being a 'copycat' as a kid because I automatically matched the way other people spoke and acted too closely. Never intentionally thought?
Agree with this , there are so many other ways you can go wrong with accents, and a lot of negative assumptions people will make about you because of this
Yes! Same with doctors, waiting to be asked questions and leaving there with no help and feeling misunderstood. This was me at the doctor yesterday, "I don't know if you need to know this, but..." and getting a very subtle funny look here and there. I don't have the patience or the time to be dismissed because I didn't say enough so if I overshare, too bad. I waited 30 minutes on the phone to get this scheduled and 6 weeks to get this appointment, I had to take time off work and expended a lot of mental and emotional energy to go there. It has taken me a long time to stop caring about those little looks that I interpret as, why did she say that? It's their job to glean the pertinent information and leave the rest. I felt disrespected and patronized at times but I got the tests and medication that I needed so it's a trade off.
I relate so much on the play fighting part! I once had a friend that made jabs at me ALL THE TIME and one day I ended up jabbing back by saying something along the lines of her ex leaving her…That didn’t go well.. I was so confused as to why something I said was wrong and hurtful but everything she said was for fun. navigating those type of interactions are challenging and exhausting..
Yes, I totally relate to this! I can't ever understand why it is ok for someone to say something mean, and it's a "joke", but when I do the same thing, I'm a "mean person". It feels like literally the same thing but when I do it, it's wrong. It seems hypocritical to me. It is extremely exhausting, because I obviously just don't "get it"!
@@tracik1277 I know, I really don't get it either! To me, being mean is just mean, whether it's a "joke", or serious. To me, it's not a funny joke at all!
I relate to some autistic struggles, having ADHD, but this one makes sense to me. I'll try to help! For friendly teasing, you pick something that isn't painful for the other person, and make jokes about that. Never go in the "you're unlovable" areas, or in that person's particular insecurity. This is why joking around is what friends do, it's a demonstration of "I know you". If the jokes hurt you, and it's a friend making them, you can say something, or just look down and don't talk very much for a while. That will indicate to your friend that this area isn't funny for you. For example, my sister was always very smart, so I'd tease her when she didn't understand something. It didn't hurt her self esteem, because she has no insecurities about being dumb. So I can say something about "I'll explain it again using one syllable words" and everyone would laugh. That's a very safe joke. A riskier joke would be about her height. I'd need to make sure she's feeling good before going there, and just do a gentle joke She was very insecure about her nose, and so I would just never mention that at all, even when we were having real fights. (Because I wanted to hurt her, but not that much. We'd be hitting each other in fury, but still I'd never say anything that'd hurt too much, just like I'd hit her on the leg but not punch her in the face.) It's not about what makes sense (for example her nose looks good to me) but it's what she feels about it. Each play insult needs to be tailored to the person, and after you make it, you pay attention to the reaction to know if that was too much or just on the line or perfectly fine. Maybe because you react differently than your friend expects, she doesn't realize that what she "read" from your body language as being fine, was incorrect, and actually she crossed a line. Writing it all out like that makes it seem complicated, but it's not really😅.
When I'm in social situations I perform. I'm ADHD and I'm pretty good at being charming, funny, and entertaining. However, as soon as the stimulation of the social challenge wears off I am exhausted and intensely socially anxious and over analyze everything that happened. And if someone doesn't want my performance (professional, daughter, friend, nice stranger) mask, I have no idea what to do. So I'm great at making first impressions, but can't sustain it. Really related to dropping the mask around my romantic partner and my queerplatonic partner. I don't feel like I need to get a good grade in social interaction with them. I can play fight okay, though? It's a matter of selecting things that the other person isn't sensitive about and making it funny. (I'd tease my queerplatonic partner about her hatred for the vacuum cleaner, but not about her difficulty in finding work in her field.) Over or under sharing... I will match whatever depth the other person is sharing. If neither of us knows what is social appropriate, it can get wild. And regulation time instead of social time - I enjoy socializing very much in the moment! Very stimulating! I seem like an extrovert! But it's so tiring and stressful afterwards I'm starting to avoid it. :/ especially with the guilt from ADHD forgetting to keep up with friends for months...
I resonate with everything. This makes me look like an asshole that does not want to spend time with others. I use to care so much... I'm caring less and less and I love it. ❤❤❤
As a high-masking man, play-fighting/banter is pretty much unavoidable as it is a cornerstone of most male friendships. I was raised in a household where play-fighting was common, so that helps. The short version (for male friendships) is that you can joke about things that make people mildly uncomfortable, but you can't joke about things that bring up something hurtful. AKA: "you can't hold a drink" is (usually) okay, "your wife left you" is (usually) not. Neurotypical people sometimes struggle to tell the difference too, especially a couple drinks in, we are just more aware we risk crossing a line. My main issue has been learning how/if to play-fight outside of that group. For example, "Don't be a fucking idiot" is something I can say to most of my guy friends without worry, but most women find that upsetting. Another has been doing so with not traditionally masculine men, or people who are your boss, as play-fighting can easily come across as "asserting dominance". Especially with superiors the only winning move is not to play. This gets really difficult when you're in a conversation with a mix of different people.
I interpret "playfighting" and teasing as barely concealed hostility. I tell people to stop it, which doesn't generally work. It's not something I would even attempt to do. I just hate it, and always have. I only got into it once, with a friend, and it escalated to the point that it destroyed the friendship.
the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once resonated with me because throughout most of my life it's like I've had a rotating cast of masks with each responding to specific people/context/roles. Like how the main character of the film could channel different parallel versions of herself for specific actions.
Me spot on, I just want to hide inside and away from basically everyone so I can just about “function” even a day out around people messes me up for days but I can get so bored stuck inside after a while so I feel like I need to do something outside of the house
i actually have that "partner" level of comfort with my mom, and i hope to achieve it with a friend one day! saying this because amatonormativity is prevelant in our society and its important to recognise that the closest relationships in our life dont always involve sex or kissing
I hate play fighting!! I'm trans but growing up as a "boy" it's considered commonplace for other guys to say really mean things to each other but not take it seriously. I couldn't understand it, and they just told me I was too sensitive and a crybaby for not liking being called a dumbass or ugly everyday. And it's funny you brought up clapping back because I did that once! After one of them said something to me I told them "well I know your mom doesn't love you" and everyone got quiet real quick 😂 I thought I was being sociable
Yeah clapping back is a catch 22. If you don't clap back, you're not cool. If you do, what you say isn't cool because only in-group people can go there. 🫠
playfighting is hard for me too. I can't even imagine being a guy and trying to navigate THAT social construct... your comment cracked me up though... telling someone their mother doesn't love them as a way to be "sociable" is just so hilariously perfect... I see your efforts! you were trying ! :)
I’m also trans and when I was a young “boy” trying to mask my autism and the fact that I internally felt female I ended up saying some really unhinged anti-girly (mysogynist) comments whenever I had to interact with girls because of the “you throw like a girl” type of play fighting that all of the men and boys in my life encouraged me to partake in. Those cringey moments will stay with me for life 😩 I do take solace in knowing that that wasn’t me tho. it was me parroting how I was told to act and the men in my life did a terrible job teaching me how to respect women and girls (probably because they don’t respect them but they are socially able to recognize how to mask their mysogyny in the moments that call for it).
I clapped back recently at someone and he got real serious on me, like, why do you feel that way he wanted to know.. I realized I was out of my element.. 👽
Really resonate with the undersharing point and how that isn't talked about much since the stereotype is autistic people always infodumping and not knowing when to stop talking. I'm in my 20s but was actually diagnosed as a small child and essentially developed a shame complex around my autism and learned to mask highly in order to blend in and hide any signs of it (also bc it felt expected of me to do thanks to all the "therapy" I was put thru as a kid 🙃). I think very early on I internalized that oversharing is bad and to this day I struggle to talk about things I'm interested in because I never know how much is appropriate to talk about so I always err on the side of sharing less and focusing more on the other person. This ends up making me feel alienated and like even my friends don't know me because I have so much difficulty being authentic about my interests particularly the Special ones unless I'm being asked specific questions about them. Also just wanna say I've been watching for a lil while now as part of my unmasking journey but first time commenting, ty for everything you do Irene ❤
Another thing I really struggle with is: - I can do small talk - I have friends, and can unmask around them But ... how do I go from one to the other? I don't know how to switch from someone to make small talk with to someone I can make friends with. The ones I made friends with was explicitly them accepting me at my weirdest, or being ND themselves, or through another friend. But while I can often easily converse, I don't know how to switch to developing friendships, and maintaining them.
wow that's really incredible already, kind of jealous. i actually saw a video on youtube the other day describing how to deal with sharing personal details vs smalltalk rather than mask vs unmasking. it said to test the waters incrementally. share something small and insignificant first, and then, if they take it well, escalate it a little bit and see how they'd take that. apparently it's a bit like friendship-flirting.
Whelp, I just just learned today (at 34) that "play fighting" exists. It just feels like bullying. I refuse to be friends with anyone who talks with people that way, it's terrible.
90% of the time it's not even well intented. It's just masking for assholes and narcissists to be able to exert their self-entertaining bullying on others with minimal consequences... .
To a degree it goes back to the notion that Autists are mostly spiritually healthy individuals in an actual disordered world. The normalisation of malice is not mormal and we just call it out for what it is ..
I remember how it took me literally years to understand the small talk concept of responding to "How are you doing?" didn't require the unvarnished truth but a "Okay/Fine" was expected instead. It took me forever to get to the point where I could (deliberately) alternate without it sounding stilted - THEN not long after I got that down, I had someone express annoyance with my polite response, wanting a more personal/honest answer, who was a casual acquaintance & not someone close enough to have received such an answer imo and I was /extremely/ upset. I felt that the rules were being changed on me without warning, when I had been so proud of myself for finally making the "I'm doing fine, how are you?" actually sound natural. I was genuinely angry at the person, myself and society as a whole. (It took an embarrassingly long time to realize that this other person was maybe experiencing their own social deficit)
My brand of autistic humor involves embracing the absurd ways my brain works and turning it upside down. I love puns because it takes a moment for my brain to process both what I'm hearing and the social context it's said in; and in that moment, my brain finds 2-3 unrelated words that either sound similar or are related to something that sounds similar. I love humor that plays off of absurdity and non sequiturs (like Monty Python) because no one is the butt of the joke; everyone is *equally* confused, and that's the point. Humor like that gives me a safe way to be an equal participant in the laughter. I'm with you on play fighting, poking fun at people, etc.. Any kind of joke that makes fun of me immediately puts me on the defensive, even when I know the person doing it is on my side. It especially affected me as a kid, because my dad would poke fun at me pretty regularly... I think he probably meant well, but it hurt every time.
I relate to what you say mostly except the Monty Python humour used to go totally over my head or I would still take it literally. I couldn’t understand why it was funny and it gave me a weird uncomfortable feeling. I gradually learned to get it, but then only found it funny in a vicarious way in that it made me think of how my friends found it funny and would quote it and I would find that amusing, if that makes sense.
@@tracik1277 It does! I discovered them for the first time with one of my first "real" friend groups, so I have pleasant memories associated with watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I guess I just decided none of it made sense, and that felt a lot like real life, but because my friends were having fun, so did I. It was harder to escape what it felt like when my dad made fun of me. One of the ways I healed from that was by changing my own brand of humor to make sure I never targeted a person. I'll laugh at events and situations, but never at a person. If I'm talking about a person in detail to others, I try to make sure I'm only talking about the things I like about them. I can't fix the way I felt growing up, but I can make sure no one else ever feels the same way.
I like Monty Python as well - it’s so random and on par with my brand of humour. Had someone try what I think was shock comedy on me and I was just too shocked to be amused.
I think for play-fighting you really got to know the person enough to understand what will actually hurt them and what they themselves don’t mind and find funny. This is only possible in relationships with self aware people that are good at communicating when they feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately too many people don’t say anything when they have a problem with you, and those are the people to stay clear of as an autistic person.
So much of this resonates with me. I'm 36 and freshly diagnosed (as of one week ago) with level one autism spectrum disorder, so I'm still figuring out the many different ways in which my neurodivergence manifests in my life. I think that one of the reasons I always waited for everyone else in a classroom to share is that it gave me the most opportunity to figure out what the proper amount of sharing was.
@@chloehenry2037 I logged onto my health insurance company's website and searched for a psychologist within my network who worked with autistic adults. It was not a straightforward process, unfortunately.
Y E S. I got into an argument with the guy I’ve been seeing about me not socializing with people. And I’m like, you do not understand. Needing to socialize at work & being around people at work all the time is so draining. I need time to be alone. I like having friends but I never have the energy to hang out with anyone. All of my “free” time is spent cleaning my apartment, playing with my cat, cooking for myself, & recharging.
I relate to this so much! Please make a part two! One of the kinda big things that have made me doubt myself about being autstic is that I have such a hard time sharing. Like I kept getting told everything I was saying was boring or unnecessary when I was younger, especially by friends. I just, have such a hard time trying to figure out what else I should be saying, like I can't just monolog about something, I need people to ask me questions. This became a huge thing in a past relationship. Within the first 2 weeks, I asked him specifically to ask me more questions, because I have a hard time just sharing things about myself or my interests and by the end of our two year relationship, after asking him a few more times, I felt so disconnected from him. Like we only ever talked about his things, because every conversation I tried to start ended in a few seconds or minutes. Thats why I feel like im not close with my parents. I know so much about my mom, but i feel like she barely knows me. I mean, I know how to carry on other peoples conversations, or ask the right questions to them, sometimes I just wished they could do the same for me and gave me more time. I feel like I repeated myself a lot, but thanks for putting this idea more into words, and are showing that not everyone is going to be able to infodump.
Wow yeah I totally get you. Everyone seems able to just talk, but I can only say a few sentences unless they ask me questions. Makes it so hard to not seem boring to people. I’m currently getting assessed for ASD and it’s just so hard to tell her everything because I’m for whatever reason incapable of saying what I need to.
yeah i see some autistics talking about how they love to infodump but i would have no idea how to do that and if i start i always very quickly cut myself off because having a non-socially acceptable special interest at about 14 got me constantly put down by my classmates and family
Yes to the part about being told you’re boring. This would always confuse me because sometimes the person bored with my conversation would also monologue about the same subject. As long as it was them doing the talking it was interesting. And also being told I was selfish, but observing how most people do seem self-absorbed. Much of my unmasking process now is undoing the persona that worked really hard to be interested in everyone else to the point of essentially being nonexistent myself because that’s what got me to be so well-liked and accepted.
@@smileyhumanbeing Yeah exactly! Sometimes I find myself people pleasing to the point where I'm just saying things I think they want to hear instead of what I actually think because I don't want to get on anyone's nerves, but I'm so frustrated with pretending.
Teasing. I never understood teasing, especially as a kid. To me, it was just being mean. Now, as an adult, I still struggle with it. Especially in knowing when to stop or when it's inappropriate. Like, I picked up on the patterns of teasing to recognize it, but then I can easily get carried away with it, then people end up mad at me.
I used to overanalyze so many social situations before, because I realized I was simply scared of the consequences that could happen after. Now I realized that things happen in life that we can't control. If bad things do happen, I have learned to learn from it and move on. Positive things can happen after. This is how life is and I hate that I used to be stuck so much on repeating the social situation. I still have some difficulties switching up with my coworkers in my own department, because I'm not really used to be friends with them, but in another department there are people that I connect with better, so I do relax a bit more with them and end up being professional back at work again
OMG the jab back "your dad left you" is something i laughed at in horror because all my neurospicy friends and i definitely have had scenarios like this at least ONCE. damn
I made it super weird in some of my first attempts at friendships and relationships because ambiguity made me uncomfortable and I wanted people to tell me what their intentions were
“Why don’t you choose to hang out with people, you’re someone people would want to be around” The amount of times I’ve asked myself this…I’m 36 and just now on my journey thanks to creators like you.
Turning 36 in two weeks. It’s devastating to have been treated so horribly by the education and health systems in place and having to learn about our very basic identity and needs from gen z content creators. It is very scary to realize that if this content were not available in just a few years we might end up just as a sad statistic. Sorry just venting and sharing solidarity. ❤🙏
37 and had started to process that i was different. That i did not think like other people, and that was ok. Then, an employee was assigned for me to train the first night, and it went awesome. The second night, our energy kept rising, and my brian started to short-circuit i did not comprehend, but the process was completing, and just as a customer came in, i told him to get it. He said, "i am bad at social interactions." I said "thats ok, me too. " This guy was easy a regualar, so i told him that usually he came in bouncing, but since he was walking slow, he was mostly tiried, so he might not be able to handle your energy just speak sofffffffff.... " and freak out.
It's been hard for me articulate to others why I feel I have social deficits. They say things like "You do great! You're polite and considerate! People like you! You're better than you think you are!" Mostly it's very well intentioned, I think, but it's also frustrating because *I* know I'm struggling. So I deeply appreciate this video that just laid out all these things I've been experiencing! I related to every single one. Thank you for making this video!
Hi! I am a 44 yr old woman. Mostvof my life I thought that I am a very social person. But I often still found excuses to stay home. Time went on and ebentually my daughter got diagnosed with high functioning autism and ADD. I knew we had much in common but never thought I too might be autistic. But I am the person you are describing. I can connect with almost anyone and laser focus on a subject. The switching back and forth at work and private life and the need for recovery. I was telling my mother today that I honestly dont seem to be able to handle friendships. I am a great friend for a short whike and then Im back in my cave for very long periods of time and may reach out, out of guilt for not being a good friend. I feel that the price to connect is just too high to pay. If I coukd be at home for six months without ever going out or seeing anyone, I think I would be so happy. Thank you for a lovely video.
I recently had a 2+ hour conversation with a friend of my mom. She was visiting over from another country. It felt great to talk and have a deep meaningful conversation. But I can't expresses how terrible I felt afterwards. I was exausted. My voice was close to breaking, I felt tired and my energy was fully drained. I only started to feel better when I went out to ikea to do my thing. As much as I love to talk I need the quiet time. I need time to myself. I never understood why I was autistic because I thought I wasn't. But the fact I sometimes prefer to blurb out a word every five minutes or talk for half an hour then shut down and consider this hanging out is really telling. I guess my therapist wasn't wrong after all when she told me I really am autistic and there's no denying that. She diagnosed me. So I guess she could see through me like glass. Expecially since I went in there because I look awfully skinny to many people and came out there with a diagnosis for Aspergers and adhd. But no eating disorder.
I’ve always found it hard to interact with coworkers in an informal setting. I would have to observe how people interact with each other in order to understand how I’m supposed to act. I think that’s the way I approached learning social norms of every new social circle I was getting into. I can’t believe I hadn’t realized it’s an autism thing.
OMG! I was diagnosed in my 66th year. I never realized anyone else had these issues. Thank you so much for this discussion. You articulate situations I didn't know could be explained. Thank you and all the autistic UA-camrs.
Something a lot of people don't understand is that your ability to mask peaks your late 30s/early 40s, and then often drops off a cliff. I've just fallen off that cliff, and it's caused massive anxiety and avoidance around social activities...and my friends are definitely having a hard time adjusting to the new version of me that they're meeting for the first time.
This may possibly be due to the fact that a whole new generation of teenagers and young adults have led social change by the time you're 40 they're 20, so it makes sense that the mask you constructed doesn't work anymore
@@faeriesmak According to the assessors who diagnosed me with autism I don't mask. That is not true but I don't mask as much as many females. I just went through menopause so that is interesting to consider.
I am bad at play fighting too, but my understanding is that it’s important to go after something the person feels secure about. If you know they are confident that they are smart, then you could call them dumb, but if you know they have anxiety about not being smart enough, that would be off limits.
I agree that if there is a person that I’ve struggled to get along with at work, even if they behave better now, I find it really difficult to not feel awkward or put-off in their presence. Moving on emotionally is very difficult, especially if I feel I’ve been wronged for no good reason in the past.
can relate so much to this! Yesterday I started speaking to someone because it felt like they wanted to talk to me and it got a little flirty (which I don't typically do) but it was fun. then when I tried to make what I thought was a cute joke using something that they said earlier in the convo (but I didn't deliver it in a neurotypical way since I can be quite dry for those who know me and i was starting to feel comfortable) it landed wrong and I think the other person thought I was being serious. I should have just said it was a joke but then I further explained and made it worse and the interaction ended. I've been beating myself up about it while also being proud of myself for actually starting that conversation.
First of all: I am sorry for any mistakes😅 and I hope you can understand my stories lol I always overshare. When I went to High School I even told my male teacher that I am on my period and that I bled through my pants and that I have to go home (he did not even see me, I have sent him an email saying that). And my mom and friends were all like: why did you say that? Just say you're sick. And I was like: yeah, but it is just what happened?! And I have also told some other teacher that I never raise my hand in class because I am terrified of him. But the worst moment was, when I sent an email to my math teacher, saying that I did my homework (which got a grade) with help from my friend. Of course he got really mad and asked me why I would tell him that and all my friends called me, asking why I say the truth, but I literally did not expect my teacher getting angry. I thought he would understand and I felt like a liar, because I got an F on the same homework the week before. Why would I become completly brilliant in math overnight? So I had to tell him that I've gotten help😂 I thought I was right and he would be thankful lmao
The thing about prioritizing recharge is very relatable. In the periods of my life where I've lived by myself (which I'm back in now) that part is kind of easy (because I CAN just spend all weekend doing my own thing), and I have to put stuff like "invite Susan to brunch" on my calendar so that I don't get TOO isolated. It's like the optimum level of socialization for my mental health is just slightly higher than what I think I want in the moment...but I also can't push myself too far or meltdowns and burnout happens!
Hi Irene! I too, hate play fighting. It's not fun, it makes me so uncomfortable (but your editing when you were speaking as your school friend made me cackle)
My worst masking nightmare is that one " funny ha-ha, yooo guys and gals, how do you do fellow kids !!? " teacher, professor or boss, we all know that one, wants to seem "cool", does and says "cool" things. That's a problem to me, I can't get loose and that leads to these teachers target me because I don't laugh or smile at their jokes or don't react to them in this "laid back/chill" way. In my head, it's : authority figure = shy but diligent student mask ( quiet, does what I'm told, not making trouble ). and it completely contrasts with my " quirky, funny friend lol " mask. It's like that meme where spongebob reads book and one of his eyes looks at right page and the other at the left simultaneously. I can't be both or I go crazy !!! Or sooner or later I'm going to do something stupid. I already did that many times in the past when I was younger and didn't drop the " class clown " mask, I once started loudly commenting how stupid sentences were in english class or even said curse words because my friends were cursing during the break and laughing I thought it's going to be peak comedy and they are going to laugh. Long story short I lost friends that day and had to go to the headmaster to explain my behavior. For my friends it was natural, they knew what to do and what to not do. I didn't, and also yearned to be accepted and be the liked, funny kid.
I related to every single point you shared, especially with the over/undersharing and memorizing social cues then freezing when the algorithm gets changed up on me. Def shared this video with my discord group, its so important since most people have a stereotype about what autism is.
One of the biggest things is not just navigating neurotypical world and interactions, but that we often realize how abusive many of the people in our lives actually are. The whole “play fighting” is not how kind, compassionate, empathetic neurotypicals actual play and joke with each other, especially among women who have decentered men. There is a lot of misogyny in the whole “play fighting” social interaction and most of it falls into veiled contempt of immature, jealous, narcissistically disordered people who need to punch down with their jokes, rather than joking punching up. There is a big difference in that humor. Like the whole girl math trend, was poking fun at our ways of thinking about money or time or food or fashion, it was cute, it was wholesome, it was hilarious. Then we turned vicious when the fellas wanted to start punching down at us on social media, so we turned boy math into a complete mean joke punching down at the men. Boy math became tragic rather than funny. While we could laugh at some of the ridiculous stuff there is also an element of anger and sadness to it. People who use punch down humor don’t actually like it returned to them from most people. Some will have an exception to this if the other person punching down at them is someone they admire, respect, or want to wear that person like a suit (meaning they want to steal that person’s personality for their own mask.) however narcissistic masking is different. And I’m not saying all people who narcissistic mask are people who have a personality disorder, they can be just extremely immature emotionally and mentally. Naturally the younger our mind is the more natural narcissism we have. Not just naturally getting social cues as we neurodivergent people seem be, we can cognitively learn to see the patterns, but there are so many patterns that we end up studying psychology for 25 years just to figure out how to read people and function in the world. But as you learn how to understand how humans operate, you start to realize how abusive people are in general. That’s when I realized I’d been masking so much because everyone in my life has been abusive, ranging from mildly so to extreme. I have known 5 humans in my 43 years of life that I would consider to be authentically and consistently kind, compassionate and empathetic. Every romantic relationship with males have been abusive. And since I haven’t had any romantic relationships with females in my adult years, the teen relationships were short lived and experimental as a bi woman. We aren’t designed to be in relationships with abusive people. But the world is so abusive now it’s hard to not be surrounded by them. So we are choosing to be alone until we can locate our tribe of kind, compassionate, empathetic, and loving people. Science and statistics don’t realize how many neurodivergent women are out here living high masking lives and the. Suffering from nervous breakdowns (literally, it’s not this soft gentle thing called burnout, it’s sometimes as rough as a psychotic break from reality level) every few years their entire life, feeling trapped by the society around them forcing them to constant mask for the comfort of those around us while they abuse US! Think about how often us high maskers demand things from other people in terms of their behavior towards us? We rarely demand things, we are often trained in childhood to not have any personal boundaries, that our wants, needs, and desires or special interests were of no importance and that we should be centering everyone else’s happiness and comfort over our own. We are gaslit from day one and then trained to gaslight ourselves. This world is so messed up that the messed up people hate when we reflect their actions back to them. We the pattern seers throw a wrench in abusive and manipulative people’s tactics cause we can track and remember them, and we see them. We are dangerous. And because we naturally use logic and reason to temper our emotions and can actually learn to regulate ourselves in some pretty creative ways, we have a hard time understanding the chaotic, disregulated, and disjointed behaviors of abusive people. We are just left wondering “why the heck are you nuts doing that?” And then we’re called the crazy ones!
I can enjoy “playfighting” with close friends and family. people who, we both know each other well enough to firstly know enough things about each other, and also know what of those are likely to be fun rather than actually hurtful, and we trust each other so that if one of us does accidentally cross a boundary we can stop the game and apologize. But I get SO confused when people I hardly know, or have just met try to use it as a way to get to know each other? Or start a conversation? Some people seem to genuinely try to use it that way? And because they don’t know me they either pick something superficial that I am sensitive about (like being quiet) or they have to kind of make something up that isn’t even true of me and I’m just like huh? And I have no idea how to join in cause I don’t know what their lovable foibles that they’re comfortable making fun of are, I’ve just met them, it doesn’t work like that but they want me to say something? (I think observing the things that the person is comfortable making fun of themself for can be a good indication of what’s appropriate to tease them about, but if you don’t like doing it at all then I just don’t think you should have to do it anyway).
Had that happen to me recently (I’m undiagnosed but likely have ADHD with a possibility of autism) and yes, I don’t understand it when I don’t know them and they don’t know me. Why is it that people think this is a good idea to get to know someone else? Have they had success in the past using this method? It’s confusing when I don’t know what their intentions are.
I'm an under-sharer, and I don't even think it's an overadjustment or a reaction to being told to shut up. As far as I know, I've always been this way. It's like there's a barrier between what's going on inside me and my communication system, especially speech. I don't know what to say, I don't know how to say it, I may not even be aware that something is there to be said. Thank you for highlighting there's a flipside to the infodumping stereotype.
this is so real. really related to the scripts and internal algorithms for understanding social encounters. i used to work at starbucks (no clue how i lasted so long there, lol) and I had a mental flow chart for navigating customer interactions. any time i heard or experienced a new conversation or topic with a customer, i added it to the flow chart. made for some awkward encounters with customers before i figured out how to get through that specific convo lol
This is me too! I’m 36 and I burnt tf out in 2019 after a year of working there. I used to make 3-4 drinks at a time and I worked like a machine, socially and at performing job tasks. It got to a point where I just could not get to or through a shift without crying. 😢 that was my second longest job I think, if you don’t count any of the careers I had as a student at 4 different colleges, none from which I have any degrees. 🥺🩷🙏 glad we both made it out alive. I’m hoping that the late diagnosis and increasing understanding of autism will help us get through life better now than before.
I think play fighting can be so confusing because most of us are so literal. I always struggle with what to tell medical professionals and leave an appointment thinking I should have told them something that I didn't and how that's going to impact their diagnosis or opinion or course of treatment. It's a lot of pressure.
I know this video is from a while ago, but if you haven’t already, I would LOVE to see a part two! I related to literally everything you talked about, I never even thought about them like that but it’s so accurate for me!
Oh my gosh, Irene! This video really hit home for me big time! I related SO MUCH when you were talking about "play fighting". This is something I've always had problems with my whole life, but now that I know I'm autistic it makes more sense. I am very sensitive and I take things very literally, so when someone says something mean to me, I don't really hear it as a joke, and I don't understand why it's supposed to be funny. I have bombed so many times when I have tried to "play fight" back to someone, and ended up hurting them and/or making them angry. It just leaves me feeling very confused, and leaves the other person thinking I'm and A-hole. I also related so much to the over-sharing/under-sharing dilemna. I never seem to get it right! I try to do what I hear/see other people doing when it comes to sharing, but I'm still completely clueless and can't seem to do it the socially acceptable way.
for a while i was convinced i had DID , because of how prominent my masks were sometimes. like i would think in other people’s voices, think like that character or person, and act like the person, but not knowing how to just be myself. so i then ended up with this ‘system’ of different masks that all function and serve in different ways. i couldn’t understand why i would copy other people so instinctively, and i didn’t know how else to exist or act. it was almost like echolalia. then i started to realize that my mask would be situationally inappropriate. like i’d be collected and like ‘mature’ and ‘articulate’ on one hand, then later become impulsive and swearing and it’s almost like i’m a different person. but i don’t have amnesia, and i don’t have people in my head. that’s when i started to suspect, (after shaming and beating myself up for a while but then realizing that it’s not a conscious choice i’m making) that maybe this is part of masking.
Oh my god this explains my behavior so much. I only got diagnosed a year ago, and I’m still finding things out about myself. I will say, as someone currently in medical school, that I really wish all doctors and medical professionals wouldn’t dismiss patient’s concerns or comments, like saying “I didn’t need to know that, that’s not relevant”. It just belittles people and makes them less willing to talk. And we’re taught to ask for details, like when a symptom started, where the pain is, what it feels like, we’re taught to take a thorough history instead of making assumptions and then only asking a few questions. I will add one comment that if you feel like a medical professional isn’t taking a concern of yours seriously, or hasn’t asked about it directly, to just tell them. “Does the fact that I’m having this symptom make a difference” or “I’m concerned about how severe the pain is”. Unfortunately, there’s always going to be miscommunication between both of us and sometimes you need to be explicit with your concerns to get the message across. If they’re still dismissive of you, screw them, and I can only hope you find a different provider that takes you seriously (given the awful state of healthcare these days).
Ooooh yes, such helpful insights. I never connected those dots, I had realized in the past that I don’t get and can’t replicate play fighting, jokes at friends’ expenses etc., but never saw it through the autism lens. But it makes so. much. sense!
There's a term "code switching" which I think is adjacent to this. Sometimes the appropriate code switches without much transition time and it can take a few times of that novel transition to be practiced with the appropriate switch.
Okay, this was so relatable. And I died laughing when you described the example of how you tried to jab back with "your dad left you, and..." 😂 I have never understood play fighting! Baffling for me too. I try it off and on as an adult with my husband, and it rarely works. I end up having to use tone tags out loud, like "sorry, that was meant to be flirty" 🤦🏼♀️ I mostly stick with direct, sincere language. That's what I understand and am more fluent in.
I'm 28, and I'm just now realizing I have autism (self-diagnosed). As a woman who constantly masks, I really related to your bit about under-sharing. That is so real!! Although I love my friends and love hearing them share, I end up talking about 5 seconds for every minute they talk, and I end up leaving almost every social situation feeling unseen and more alone. :(
I definitely overshare and I always cringe later when I think about it after. The other thing I really relate to is play fighting, I have always thought of it as teasing. And I also had a friend in high school that I had to stop being friends with for similar reasons to you. I can occasionally tell if someone is teasing me. For example I can usually tell when my siblings are teasing me because I've had a lifetime to study them. I have a couple of friends that I've known for about a decade, with them I can sometimes tell. Everyone else I have a harder time with. And I try not to tease back for the same reasons, people almost never think it's funny. I even recently recomitted myself to not making jokes in a group chat I'm in because I sent a gif (that was meant to be a joke) and the reaction to it was this emoji '🤨'/nothing, so I don't think it was funny to the other people in the group 🤷🏼♀️
thank you for talking about this. I've struggled trying to understand my social deficits from a masking point of view and I appreciate your discernment.
I think the playfighting point you discussed hinged a lot on being Autistic and not wanting to be seen as inadequate and less than. I was really self conscious about being called stupid. But I went to a very wild poor school I'm actually one of the best at telling jokes being my Autistic brain cab come from left field while most people are one dimensional. I had to learn to crack jokes as a masks. It's always interesting to see how Autistics can be so different. Love your content Irene!!!
Yes, I agree! I'm usually quite good with playfighting because I have done it for so long and gained an understanding of it. However the moment someone jokes about me being stupid, that really hurts
The talk about play fighting reminds me of the talk about sarcasm. For me it’s like this: when I say something meant to be sarcastic, no one else understands that that’s what I’m going for. When other people use sarcasm, I can only understand it to be sarcasm depending on the tone of voice they use. If someone is using a strange voice and waves their hands a specific way I’ll be able to tell that they aren’t serious. If they’re using the same voice they’d use in a normal conversation, I won’t be able to tell (even if it’s something outlandish!) Similarly, if someone is play fighting and they tell me that I’m stupid/ugly/etc in a serious manner I *will* take it seriously. It’s hard to navigate 😔
the part about the questions hit really hard... i've been questioning if i'm autistic or not for the past few months and it's really hard to sort through all the information bc i'm already high masking with my adhd. going to the doctor with pain and waiting for them to ask is something i still struggle with (among other things! social patterns are hard too) and you put it in words so perfectly, so thank you!
PLAY FIGHTING OMG I literally just had a friendship end because I thought I was doing it right and I was just hurting her and I had absolutely no idea. I wish people would communicate.
Thank you so much for the part at 8:28 about preferring regulation over socialization on your down time. I feel guilty about being too "peopled out" a lot of the time to even want to hang out with my friends - especially after being social all day at work. I can be very charming, but it's exhausting, and I just want to go crawl under a rock to recharge. Is there a good way to explain this to others? If there is a difference between being "sassy" and being "rude," I haven't found it yet. Please share it in Episode 2 if you figure it out. (And yes, of course we want an Episode 2!)
The medical stuff relate so much. I was in my mid thirties having health crisis before I learn that not only did I have endometriosis, but also that any of my symptoms were not normal. No one had asked me those questions before so I had never given an answer that lead to a wtf lol
I can relate to all of the instances of “AI Socialising” getting stuck or confused and unable to generate logical suitable output in the correct Social Genre. I’m autistist schizoid (schizoid means extreme loner, not losing a sense of reality) My Social AI often leads me into situations where My Mask is automatically too nice and I get treated in a demeaning way or exploited.
I never got the mean jokes / 'playfighting' either, and by extension I despise pranks. They make me irrationally angry. I just can't fathom why people want to trick others and abuse their trust.
I'm super high masking and just had a doctors appointment today! The new setting was frustrating along with not knowing which questions to ask to get help too. It's nice to hear from someone who has been in that situation! That said I would LOVE a part 2 with the rest of the attributes at another time! I feel so much better and less alone after this video. Thank you!!
I think one of the major deficits of a neurotypical world is assumed knowledge. I'm neurotypical and even I find myself in situations that are strange and awkward because of this assumption of knowledge. I was talking to a co-worker who was talking to me about some recent health issues that he had and he was a little frustrated with me because I was unaware of them. I had to sit down and tell him you didn't tell me you were going through these health issues. And because of the nature of our work we rarely see each other face-to-face so there would have been no opportunity for me to gather this information through casual contact. I just saw the frustration and confusion melt out of his face as he realized why I hadn't been sympathetic to him previously. I think it's an important thing for autistic people to know that assumed knowledge should not be a prerequisite for engagement. If you don't know something it's perfectly okay to ask and if that person acts like you're problem for asking, that is on them and that is not your fault.
The ruminating over analyzing over explaining and the shame and guilt involved after I have to confront someone,a misunderstanding or heated argument with someone cripples me for days
Oh, and Yes: Please make a part 2. This is (for me) the greatest video about the topic, so far. I SO relate to the frustration with being at doctor's offices and not knowing what to tell them, or even, how to "correctly" answer a question, e.g. if I think I understand that the way the question is asked influences my answer in a way that it is not actually what they want to know. (especially with mental health evaluations. Questions like "do you have more trouble concentrating" (and I get stuck on the "more than what?.. I always have that trouble"), or "do you have more anxiety than your friends (and I am like... Most of my friends have diagnosed anxiety disorders, so truthfully: no. However, I guess they want to know whether I am rather anxious, which would then be the opposite answer). [Similarly with perception questions like "Are you the first one to notice a fly in the room?"... I am like.. "depends on whether the fly is moving, and where, and who else is in the room. I have, however, very sensitive hearing, and if there was a sound in a room I would likely notice it. But it takes so much extra effort to overcome my intention to tell the literal truth, and "lie" in order to give the "relevant" answer, that I think is probably asked for. The same struggle I also have in conversations with friends and family, where people get frustrated of me "zooming into" a part of a sentence, that I am answering to, because I cannot answer the whole thing that was said to me, when I consider it to be contradictory. And if I say that, of course the opposite of me will think I am nit-picky, about their choice of words/phrasing, or I am "reading into" what they say, when though I, at that time, feel like I am just interpreting what they meant. I also often end up analyzing social interactions, especially in groups, afterwards and feel embarrassed and worried that I said/shared too much. I always call it "hindsight-anxiety". wow.. I never noticed all those connections. Your video really gave me a lot to think about.
This is so relatable! I have been diagnosed with GAD and I’m on the waiting list for an autism assessment, and I’m really scared and worried about questions that are formulated like this!
The way you expressed every discomfort around showering I have had and then showed the literal picture of the shower curtain I have been using the past four years 😂. I can point to going on tour as a musician and having to utilize some questionable living spaces as to how I have overcome a select few of these sensitivities. Before that though the feelings of discomfort around hygiene were buried under maskulinity and/or “being a boy.” I did not expect to be so well seen in this video. Thank you for sharing.
PART TWO PLS my thoughts and experiences are very hard for me to verbalize and conceptualize and you do it so well and say it exactly what i would want to say
I loved hearing you talk about these topics! I'm a late-in-life autism and ADHD diagnosis, and as a high-masking individual, I always felt like I was chronically asking myself "why can't I understand?" when it came to a variety of social cues and situations. My response to play-fighting and teasing was and is essentially to shut down. I'm better at responding now than I was as a young person, but many times it's still a huge challenge. I describe my matrix of social responses very similarly to how you described having memorized a set of cues related to the person and place, and I've always gotten massively overstimmed at group-oriented social events. Thank you so much for putting this out there. You make me feel less alien and alone, and I'm very grateful for it.
IDK about only unmasking around romantic partners, but I would agree that whatever your closest, most trusted relationships are, that's probably where you do it - and maybe those are your closest relationships because you know you CAN. Like, my parents knew I was a deeply weird kid, and none of us knew why at the time - but they rolled with that and didn't try to do to much to change me apart from helpfully verbally explaining a lot of social rules. The friends I've kept for 20 years are the ones where we met by one of us going off on a topic (totally skipping the small talk) and where we were never bothered by each other's eccentricities. (They aren't autistic - but one does have ADHD, and the other is a fellow academic who just can go off on her subjects of interest for like an hour!)
I can relate to the playfight part, oversharing, not knowing what to share, and pretty much everything you said. I've also always had a hard time using slangs, it sounds weird to me. And, please, part II 😍
I am in the process of being evaluated for ADHD, anxiety, and autism, but I find it very difficult to explain because I don't have the right words for it. Your videos have helped me a lot in figuring out how to explain what they need to know. I still need to have the courage to be open enough to shed all the masks, but I'm getting closer, and your videos have contributed to that. Thank you for sharing; it's incredibly brave. Thank you for being you :)
It’s terrible the lack of accessibility for a proper diagnosis in some countries. This is the main reason I believe a self diagnosis has to be respected, sometimes there’s no other option. I am in awe of the level of awareness adult neurodiverse folks are developing. Super thankful to every spokesperson reaching out with information and support.
Play fighting as a young autistic kid was so hurtful and confusing. It felt like no one else had to follow rules but I had a thousand rules I had to follow but no one would tell me the rules. As a sensory seeking kid I loved wrestling and physically fighting other kids but it would always end with me unintentionally hurting someone for real too.
Aw, I see that in my friend's child. She's playing and roughhousing with my children, but she doesn't get the signals that she's going too hard until they scream at her to stop. And then she's confused about why kids are always yelling at her, and my kids are saying "she's so rough, I always get hurt when she's there and she doesn't stop when I tell her to stop". Meanwhile she's confused about why, if everyone is horsing around, the scolding is only for her.
I'll try to give my girls suggestions for making their body language very " loud", maybe that will help.
Oh my gosh this was meeeeeee too
I LOVE banter in books/movies - possibly because it just fascinates me when done well - but I don't do it myself. I can write it, even, but I can't figure it out on the fly.
What I DO like is intellectual banter - arguing back and forth about an idea. Because there it isn't personal (if you go to directly calling the other person a dumbass instead of explaining why you think the idea is wrong, then you're really outside the rules of the game). However, a lot of people don't do this, and I've had people get upset with me because they feel like I'm trying to dismiss them or the idea in question, when I'm really thinking "Huh - that's an interesting proposition. Let's jab at it and see if stands up!" I wouldn't DO this unless I thought the idea was worth talking about! But it's hard to convince them that I'd actually be fine with losing the argument as long as I lost on the basis of evidence, or at least a convincing bit of rhetoric....
That was me to a t as a kid. We were wrestling on a trampoline once at a friend's house and they all dog piled on top of me. I got mad and kicked my friend off the trampoline, breaking his arm. I made sure after that too not fight anyone even just for fun.
@@PirateQueen1720. Yes! I thought I wasn’t quick or witty, until I became involved in the world of ideas. I just don’t speak social banter!! I realize that academia is social and I don’t get that part, but logical arguments can’t be ignored or rejected. You can stick your nose up at them all you want, but sound research and reasoning stands on its own. People who reject facts and logic are the ones who look silly, in the world of ideas…not those who don’t act or dress like “everyone else. I’m so glad to learn it’s not everyone who values social rules, over everything.
P.S. Excuse the punctuation error. I’m having an issue, where I can’t see what I’m typing or edit, without deleting everything, after the character I want to fix. Is this YT, or my device? Anyone else ever have this problem?
Specially relate to the not knowing when and how much or sometimes even what(like whats pertinent) to share. It has caused me so much embarrassment my whole life. I still cringe whenever I recall some of it(it was made clear to me that I over or under shared in retrospect after getting more new info).
Me too, so many embarrassing moments in my life due to this issue. It's the worst feeling to have shared something you thought was pertinent to the conversation, only to have someone staring back at you like "What are you even talking about"?
Hard relate ❤
Very relatable. I work in a high demand IT help desk role for a law firm and 10 years ago, when I had just started, my biggest question was “how do I know what I’m _supposed_ to know. You never want to ask a question that will sew distrust when you’re the “expert”. (And starting to tell this story I’m already conflicted on how many other details to include.) You need that trust so you can ask more questions and find out what’s really going on. So often the user thinks it’s one thing and it’s really another. Eventually I learned I don’t have to know the name of literally every legal software tool an attorney/assistant/paralegal might use. Some are specialized to one’s area of law and I can’t just clam up when they tell me something I’ve never heard of is broken. I still have to ask the relevant questions and you get to know what to look out for even when you know little to nothing about the software you’re supporting in that moment. It would be ridiculous to expect that you know as much as an attorney when you haven’t studied law, but with my social deficits that wasn’t obvious to me.
I definitely relate to this. I often just stick to the observer role until I can kind of figure out the social norms. But I’ve had so many experiences where I can tell I over shared, or get elbowed to be quiet because apparently it wasn’t socially acceptable to say what I was actually thinking. 😂
@@VanessaAsayyeeeaaas😂😂😂 & on the other hand, being called brave or cool for “not caring about what others think” has been a kicker for me too, cuz I’m like 💭I just didn’t even know it was “a thing against the norm” 😅
People either find me to be someone who’s “refreshingly herself” or “just… what?”
I remember as a kid I would over share and the reactions I would get made me feel like it was a bad thing, so I stopped. When I got older, high school years, a friend told me "I know you're favorite colors, chips, etc, but I don't know you" as in how i grew up, and my pass. It was almost like I created a "2D" version of myself that helped me make others feel comfortable, but could never really feel emotionally connected, leading me to always feel burned out.
This is a great way of putting it, I had this same situation when I was younger. Everyone knew my special interests because I talked about them a lot, but I never shared other things that would have connected me to people. Struggles, morals, values, and emotions. It just didn't occur to me to share stuff like that, my world was mine and it didn't involve people my age.
This makes so much sense! I feel like this is so accurate of myself, too, that now I don't feel like I even know anything about me.
This is very astute. Thank you ❤
Can definitely relate you just described my childhood and some adulthood, but not anymore I shield myself from people I detect have bad spirits and look at things like a chess match thinking ahead to avoid being hurt sometimes it works sometimes not but I keep going,so should you hope things are looking brighter for you now 🙏🏼
Ouch. This hit close to home. I was the oversharer until it bit me in the ass. I still am but I control what I say. I'd be too open and honest with some people and people used what I said to hurt me. Like me telling one kid I liked him and him making fun of me. Or people asking me how much I'd rate myself (in looks) and the response I gave was used to make fun of me. As if my number was so crazy high. I think I rated myself a 7 or 8 out of 10. The real shocker was when one guy was pestering me about liking me. I could tell he was joking because who would be interested in the weird teenage girl fangirling over random Djs with headphones always on. And when he asked me out I deadass responded with "If you want to, let's meet up for coffee. It's fine by me". I was serious. I wasn't joking. If he actually wanted to go out with me I would've been there five minutes earlier waiting for him for coffee. Of course he was joking and wasn't expecting me to say yes as he immediately was put on the spot by a crowd of Oooohhhhhhhs! I could tell he was joking because again... Who would be so interested in somebody like me? I'd only expect someone with the same level of insanity like me to do that. Not that level of stupidity. But I still get told I overshare. Because I go off like a train between long stations. Monkey no see, monkey just talk.
I've noticed that my son (diagnosed as a 7 year old), now 19, hasn't developed the crippling "social anxiety" many other undiagnosed family members have developed. I believe this is because knowing "why I don't fit", (also positive reinforcement from me & his grandma) made him accept himself enough to challenge all the bullies & "misunderstandings" that have driven the rest of us to eating disorders or substance abuse..
did you tell him he was autistic? how did you let him know he was different?
I'm a recently diagnosed as autistic grandmother. My late husband was autistic. My 3 sons (who are vehemently deny their reality) and at least 6 of my adult/teen grandchildren are also autistic. Only 2 of us have been professionally diagnosed, and we all have different opinions on being diagnosed. I didn't have my own kids diagnosed back in the 70s because they didn't have appropriate treatment for neurodivergent kids then. Now, I'm in a discussion with my adult grandchildren about their autistic teen cousins and siblings about whether being diagnosed is better than not being diagnosed and how to support them. Any advice? Suggestions?
@@luminarymani I just explained about the difference between neurotypical & neurodivergent brains, that one isn't better ir worse than the other, just different. I also played up how unique & lucky he was in different areas of his IQ scores. He was also very relieved to have an explanation as to why he struggled to fit in with his classmates & (mostly) prefered the company of adults. I hope this is useful to you..
Thanks so much for your response. I think it will be very useful in my conversations with my grandchildren. Even before being diagnosed, the kids often joked, "Grandmom, you're weird, and that's why I'm weird."
I've told all of them that autism "runs in the family", so even if they aren't actually autistic, they will probably have inherited a quirk or two from their elders. It's kind of our family thing.
@@Jacq.T
Thanks
Tone and volume of voice is a HUGE trigger for me. I always get anxious when I hear raised voices, even if the people doing so are just being playful or bickering in a non-serious way, because in my past when the kinds of people I grew up around raised their voices, something bad was about to happen and it was probably going to involve me in a negative way. It's taken a long time to not get scared of people who talk loudly even when I know by the context that they're not angry
Same. ❤
Me with loud noises, even one loud noise can make me go Into a pre-meltdown or into a full meltdown or shutdown. Especially slamming doors.
how are you going about getting used to it? mom has been having hearing trouble and it's gotten to where I end up cowering or having to take a walk any time she has a conversation with anyone else in the house because she can't control volume anymore xwx noise cancelling headphones mostly work but I've started stressing out just at the sudden change in pressure from the front door bc it means my auditory environment is going to be shite for the next 6-10 hours. x_x;
Would her insurance cover hearing aids? That's so not fair for you.
@@jamiekeller9915 she has amplifiers. Wearing them too much makes it worse though so yeah.
In Australia we call play fighting “banter.” I’ve had so many conversations with other autistics around how it’s so hard to navigate.
If you pretend you understand, inwardly you feel hurt. If you try to keep up with it you always run the risk of hurting someone else. It’s usually safer to just not engage, but then you get labeled as not being able to “take a joke.”
It’s so confusing.
Aww you guys called it "banter "
Just accept the "can't be able to take jokes". I mean what else can we do?
Oh we use the word banter in the U.S. too! And yes agreed with all of the above
@@rainbowwwkim oh didn't know that. Haha I'm wondering what could it be in England. Thanks for sharing
Maybe we mask it by saying "yeah we have our own type of humor "
Hahaa I'm thinking ways to mask my autistic things and spend hours trying to figure out some sh*t
I was just thinking of asking one of my friends to teach me how to banter bc the jokes always go straight over my head 🤣😭
When I was younger, my masks were tied to situations moreso than to specific people. I knew that being in a classroom meant behaving a certain way and that just hanging out with friends was a different thing. I remember a friend I was in a class with in middle school pointing out how totally different I was in versus out of class, and how much that threw me because all I could think was, "Isn't that how it's supposed to be, though???"
That isn't masking. It's called context, code-switching and style-shifting, and everybody does it.
I want to say that part of being able to unmask around my partner is that once you're in a relationship of some kind with someone, there's a verbal contract in place. I can relax because they've said "I find you attractive and enjoyable to be around and I am actively signing up to spend more time with you because I want to spend more time with you."
Then whenever I do question "are they actually enjoying this interaction/do they like me?" I can go back to the fact that there is a promise in place and reassure myself that they are with me for me and I am safe and okay.
Sometimes I ask my boyfriend if he is still ok with me. I try not to do it too often because he will get annoyed.
This is why I feel so much more comfortable dating than trying to make friends.
You're lucky. I married the person I was most comfortable being me with. He made me happy. After that, all he ever did was try to change everything about me and was mean about everything he used to be okay with. Mind you, I'm a kind person. Literally nothing I did seemed to be "right" or "enough". I finally left with the tiny sliver of sanity I had left...but with nothing but the worst opinion of myself. I've been fighting depression ever since and don't dare try to connect with another person on that level ever again.
That makes me sad…so sorry you had to go through that!
@@jecicox7605unfortunately you probably ended up with a manipulative person who hid their true self at the beginning. I’m sorry you went through that and hope your future is brighter.
I distinctly remember there being one person who straight-up did not like me at my first job out of college. As one of my managers, she went out of her way to assign me tasks that she knew I didn't like, made snide remarks about how I did the work (no matter how well it was actually done), and was just generally antagonistic. I thought I had her figured out... but then one day, I accidentally sent a text to her instead of my friend that described her by name and in less-than-flattering terms. (I was young and dumb. I called her a bitch.) The moment after I realized what I'd done, I started imagining all of the worst case scenarios about how this would play out. She could, at a minimum, write me up. She'd have been justified! But no. She laughed it off and carried on like nothing even happened. That woman terrified me from that point forward, because I realized I would never be able to predict her response to something.
That's really terrifying! Some people like having "power” over each other.
Jesus that's a scary situation
It's kinda interesting and also scary to think that she was so unaware of herself that she didn't even think that text was about her!
@@SaraBeth4045Or maybe she knew she was being a bitch and didn't care.🤷🏻♀️
Who knows?
I think that behavior from your ex-manager would make anyone a bit scared- to me that behavior implies she's hiding some strange intentions or a strange way of viewing your relationship. That's just freaky!
Your inability to playfight absolutely cracked me up because it is so relatable 🤣🙂. Mindblowing to realise it is an autistic trait 🤯
Yea I cannot do it either. I will get my feelings hurt by it and also will hurt feelings in my attempts to do it
Yes, I didn't know this was an autistic trait, but it makes total sense, because of not being able to gauge social cues.
Relate to this sooo much!!
It works if it sounds sarcastic, which gets annoying when you actually mean what you’re saying and the other person starts laughing. I can dish it out but I can’t take it 😂 in the uk, they call it banter. It’s like taking jabs at what the other person does that is annoying but making it sound like a joke.
I can dish it out with some friends, but have no capacity to take it... and when I dish it out I always worry if it was harsh or hurtful because I can't tell
(Edit: I will ask the if they're okay with the jab afterwards)
Playfighting has always been soooo stressful to me, because some people do it as a way to be horrible with plausible deniability, and it can be really hard to tell who is just teasing and who is genuinely being cruel.
totally agree--plausible deniability. I don't give people the benefit of the doubt. If I experience it as hostility, I react to it as hostility. In my book, it's an unacceptable behavior that should not be tolerated.
I got really frustrated and pissed off when I realised there is no algorithm(like in old timey video games; once you figure out the algorithm of a stage you can easily pass it every single time from then onwards) to human interpersonal interaction. That people's personalities(psychology defines this as a set of repeated common behaviours a person shows) are inconsistent. Specially morally. Its all arbitrary. No formula for it no matter how much I tried to make sense of it using logic and reasoning. I had all these rules and categories in my head and I remember feeling so helpless and like I wasted so much energy all these years learning what I _THOUGHT_ was how to deal with people and behave in society(but was actually just different masks for different situations).
This frfr
There isn't??????? Man now I feel lost ...
@@あああああああ-k9i I'm sorry
I found NVC (Nonviolent Communication), and the principles are pretty accurate to how and why people behave how they do, if you study it deeply enough. But yes, you have to accept that people act emotionally, and learn the logic of emotions. Which is basically that people are always protecting themselves and trying to seek emotional safety. It's not arbitrary. It's just not rational logic, it's emotional logic.
@@shiny_x3O, I love nonviolent communication!! c:
I think so called "play fighting" is very often toxic. It is totally ok to not accept being called "stupid" all the time, even if it is presented like a joke.
Yep, I agree.
I had two separate teachers--one in high school and one in college who called me Charlie, sarcastically, even though they knew my name was Steve. They didn't like the fact that I asked a lot of questions and occasionally disagreed with them. This went on all year. I was not being disruptive, just wanted better explanations. To me this was very unprofessional. I really didn't care that they didn't like me, or even that they treated me badly. They were just putting their own stupidity on display.
Society is built on abuse
Agreed
Saying seriously hurtful stuff and trying to get away with it by saying "I was just playing around" is like the oldest abuse tactic in the book.
I’ve got one that might resonate.
Not recognising a social pattern, so just trying every way possible to handle it (eg. Someone says something unkind, so you ignore it. They repeat it and you disagree agreeably. They repeat it again so you just try to laugh it off. And so on. Just basically trying all the video game functions until one of them works, but usually if you get it wrong more than once it freaks people out.
I couldn't agree more.
I think autistic people take insults too easily. It's one reason they get bullied; they don't know WHEN to fight back. I've been the same way most of my life, but finally did a housecleaning where I got rid of all the abusive people in my life. At least for me, this was a very good thing.
I have never heard someone talk about undersharing like this but dang that’s me! The not speaking in class until you’ve been called on thing reminds me of how when people are making plans in my general vicinity they assume I know I’m invited to the thing because I’m hearing them but like unless they literally invite me specifically, I don’t know if they actually mean to include me or not. It’s the most frustrating thing ever, for me and for other people. Ugh
i had that problem too, so when one of my former friends told me to invite myself i started inviting myself and the others started talking behind my back about how i was annoying for inviting myself and they never even told me they had a problem with me.
One of the problems with neurotypicals is that being shitty is part of their normal social repertoire. @@vescenti
Omg this is so real! If there are plans I need express confirmation (preferably over text so I can go back and read it when I overthink and doubt that they want me there) that I am invited, a time, a place, a list of everyone who's going to be there, a description of what we're doing, if we're going to be eating, if so what food bc I need to know if it's okay for me to eat or if I need to bring my own, an approximate time that it will end (so I know how much I need to mentally prepare for it) and I need to be told what to bring (if there's anything like food that I'm expected to contribute). Oh, and I need to know what everyone else is wearing so I can plan my outfit based on that so I don't look out of place.
I've had a friend like that too, and I honestly, I don't think the girl calling you stupid was playfighting: I think she was putting you down and then trying to disguise it as a joke.
Playfighting/banter is supposed to be fun for both parties involved - it's supposed to be both of you poking fun at things about each other that are kinda funny and dorky, in a harmless way. Not actually straight up insulting the other.
i really relate to what you're saying about choosing to prioritize self regulation over socializing. when i choose to socialize with someone it's almost never because i just "feel like being social," it's usually that i am wanting to nurture my relationship with that specific person/people and i'm doing so at the cost of not having that time to self regulate. no matter how much i care about someone, it's a drain on my energy to interact with them, with the sole exception of my partner--and even then a lot of the time i just want to sit quietly in the same room and not have him talk to me because that's too much.
I actually experience most of the things in this video, but i would like to expand on the whole undersharing vs oversharing.
I actually think that one can lead to another both ways(undersharing->oversharing and oversharing-> undersharing) kind of like how autistic people can start out outgoing but due to social issues and your peer’s and older people’s social development, can lead you to being introverted. I used to overshare a lot and i still do but much less. Due to how people react to me oversharing, now i either undershare or never share as a reaction to past experiences with oversharing and how people received it.
Yes! As a child I was extroverted, but as a (very late, as in the past year) diagnosed 55 yo adult I am now very introverted (traumatized extrovert) from failing at NT social norms for so long
I was extroverted as a child. Introverted as a teenager and am somewhat extroverted as an adult.
@@christophero1968 Almost the same for me (but I was diagnosed at 48 - I'm 50, now).
Beyond what you say, though, I am an introvert with an extrovert mask. I'm so confused 🤪
Same 😔♥️
@@TeamJesusGo same 💜😕
I really appreciate you sharing this stuff- these social deficits are honestly the reason why I started pursuing a diagnosis in adulthood. I also feel like these difference were made so much more apparent by "entering the adult world" and being forced to speak for myself on a variety of issues. It becomes so much more obvious how out-of-sync you are once you step outside of your nuclear-family neurodivergent bubble as a young adult.
Please do make a part two, if you would like!!! 😊
Ok I remembered another one.
Being so used to assimilating to different cultures that you do it even when it’s not socially expected. Eg. Picking up an accent from the area you work on day 2. Or overly researching a friends cultural celebration to a point where it’s weird that you know that much without being a part of it.
To be honest a lot of people appreciate this, and find it comforting and they see more of themselves in you and so treat you accordingly. But the usual situation I run into when this happens is another person witnessing me do this, and assuming one or both versions of me are fake. A lot of people don’t understand that fitting into the situation is often the best defence we have socially.
Absolutely, I hate being out of place or out to my depth, so I absorb accents like a sponge and research whatever event I'm attending way too much.
I was bullied for being a 'copycat' as a kid because I automatically matched the way other people spoke and acted too closely. Never intentionally thought?
Agree with this , there are so many other ways you can go wrong with accents, and a lot of negative assumptions people will make about you because of this
Yes! Same with doctors, waiting to be asked questions and leaving there with no help and feeling misunderstood.
This was me at the doctor yesterday, "I don't know if you need to know this, but..." and getting a very subtle funny look here and there. I don't have the patience or the time to be dismissed because I didn't say enough so if I overshare, too bad. I waited 30 minutes on the phone to get this scheduled and 6 weeks to get this appointment, I had to take time off work and expended a lot of mental and emotional energy to go there. It has taken me a long time to stop caring about those little looks that I interpret as, why did she say that? It's their job to glean the pertinent information and leave the rest. I felt disrespected and patronized at times but I got the tests and medication that I needed so it's a trade off.
I relate so much on the play fighting part! I once had a friend that made jabs at me ALL THE TIME and one day I ended up jabbing back by saying something along the lines of her ex leaving her…That didn’t go well.. I was so confused as to why something I said was wrong and hurtful but everything she said was for fun. navigating those type of interactions are challenging and exhausting..
Yes, I totally relate to this! I can't ever understand why it is ok for someone to say something mean, and it's a "joke", but when I do the same thing, I'm a "mean person". It feels like literally the same thing but when I do it, it's wrong. It seems hypocritical to me. It is extremely exhausting, because I obviously just don't "get it"!
@@christinelamb1167I just don’t get how saying something mean is ever supposed to be funny in the first place. Like, how did that even become a thing?
@@tracik1277 I know, I really don't get it either! To me, being mean is just mean, whether it's a "joke", or serious. To me, it's not a funny joke at all!
I relate to some autistic struggles, having ADHD, but this one makes sense to me. I'll try to help!
For friendly teasing, you pick something that isn't painful for the other person, and make jokes about that. Never go in the "you're unlovable" areas, or in that person's particular insecurity.
This is why joking around is what friends do, it's a demonstration of "I know you".
If the jokes hurt you, and it's a friend making them, you can say something, or just look down and don't talk very much for a while. That will indicate to your friend that this area isn't funny for you.
For example, my sister was always very smart, so I'd tease her when she didn't understand something. It didn't hurt her self esteem, because she has no insecurities about being dumb. So I can say something about "I'll explain it again using one syllable words" and everyone would laugh. That's a very safe joke.
A riskier joke would be about her height. I'd need to make sure she's feeling good before going there, and just do a gentle joke
She was very insecure about her nose, and so I would just never mention that at all, even when we were having real fights. (Because I wanted to hurt her, but not that much. We'd be hitting each other in fury, but still I'd never say anything that'd hurt too much, just like I'd hit her on the leg but not punch her in the face.)
It's not about what makes sense (for example her nose looks good to me) but it's what she feels about it.
Each play insult needs to be tailored to the person, and after you make it, you pay attention to the reaction to know if that was too much or just on the line or perfectly fine. Maybe because you react differently than your friend expects, she doesn't realize that what she "read" from your body language as being fine, was incorrect, and actually she crossed a line.
Writing it all out like that makes it seem complicated, but it's not really😅.
@@er6730 thank you for helpful kindness. It’s a minefield out there because each person and situation is different.
When I'm in social situations I perform. I'm ADHD and I'm pretty good at being charming, funny, and entertaining. However, as soon as the stimulation of the social challenge wears off I am exhausted and intensely socially anxious and over analyze everything that happened. And if someone doesn't want my performance (professional, daughter, friend, nice stranger) mask, I have no idea what to do. So I'm great at making first impressions, but can't sustain it.
Really related to dropping the mask around my romantic partner and my queerplatonic partner. I don't feel like I need to get a good grade in social interaction with them.
I can play fight okay, though? It's a matter of selecting things that the other person isn't sensitive about and making it funny. (I'd tease my queerplatonic partner about her hatred for the vacuum cleaner, but not about her difficulty in finding work in her field.)
Over or under sharing... I will match whatever depth the other person is sharing. If neither of us knows what is social appropriate, it can get wild.
And regulation time instead of social time - I enjoy socializing very much in the moment! Very stimulating! I seem like an extrovert! But it's so tiring and stressful afterwards I'm starting to avoid it. :/ especially with the guilt from ADHD forgetting to keep up with friends for months...
I relate to everything you describe, I also match the other persons sharing intensity, and...ooof...it can get out of hand sometimes ! 😅
I resonate with everything. This makes me look like an asshole that does not want to spend time with others. I use to care so much... I'm caring less and less and I love it. ❤❤❤
As an AuDHD "high functioning" folk, i some times pull the first good impressions,.but it never lasts. The mask falls off fast
I totally relate
As a high-masking man, play-fighting/banter is pretty much unavoidable as it is a cornerstone of most male friendships. I was raised in a household where play-fighting was common, so that helps. The short version (for male friendships) is that you can joke about things that make people mildly uncomfortable, but you can't joke about things that bring up something hurtful. AKA: "you can't hold a drink" is (usually) okay, "your wife left you" is (usually) not. Neurotypical people sometimes struggle to tell the difference too, especially a couple drinks in, we are just more aware we risk crossing a line.
My main issue has been learning how/if to play-fight outside of that group. For example, "Don't be a fucking idiot" is something I can say to most of my guy friends without worry, but most women find that upsetting. Another has been doing so with not traditionally masculine men, or people who are your boss, as play-fighting can easily come across as "asserting dominance". Especially with superiors the only winning move is not to play. This gets really difficult when you're in a conversation with a mix of different people.
😂😂😂 I find this helarious and extremely hard to do. If I ever try, I go overboard... so I better don't.
I interpret "playfighting" and teasing as barely concealed hostility. I tell people to stop it, which doesn't generally work. It's not something I would even attempt to do. I just hate it, and always have. I only got into it once, with a friend, and it escalated to the point that it destroyed the friendship.
the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once resonated with me because throughout most of my life it's like I've had a rotating cast of masks with each responding to specific people/context/roles. Like how the main character of the film could channel different parallel versions of herself for specific actions.
Me spot on, I just want to hide inside and away from basically everyone so I can just about “function” even a day out around people messes me up for days but I can get so bored stuck inside after a while so I feel like I need to do something outside of the house
i actually have that "partner" level of comfort with my mom, and i hope to achieve it with a friend one day! saying this because amatonormativity is prevelant in our society and its important to recognise that the closest relationships in our life dont always involve sex or kissing
Thanks for bringing this up! I agree immensely
I hate play fighting!! I'm trans but growing up as a "boy" it's considered commonplace for other guys to say really mean things to each other but not take it seriously. I couldn't understand it, and they just told me I was too sensitive and a crybaby for not liking being called a dumbass or ugly everyday. And it's funny you brought up clapping back because I did that once! After one of them said something to me I told them "well I know your mom doesn't love you" and everyone got quiet real quick 😂 I thought I was being sociable
Yeah clapping back is a catch 22. If you don't clap back, you're not cool. If you do, what you say isn't cool because only in-group people can go there. 🫠
playfighting is hard for me too. I can't even imagine being a guy and trying to navigate THAT social construct... your comment cracked me up though... telling someone their mother doesn't love them as a way to be "sociable" is just so hilariously perfect... I see your efforts! you were trying ! :)
I’m also trans and when I was a young “boy” trying to mask my autism and the fact that I internally felt female I ended up saying some really unhinged anti-girly (mysogynist) comments whenever I had to interact with girls because of the “you throw like a girl” type of play fighting that all of the men and boys in my life encouraged me to partake in. Those cringey moments will stay with me for life 😩 I do take solace in knowing that that wasn’t me tho. it was me parroting how I was told to act and the men in my life did a terrible job teaching me how to respect women and girls (probably because they don’t respect them but they are socially able to recognize how to mask their mysogyny in the moments that call for it).
male
I clapped back recently at someone and he got real serious on me, like, why do you feel that way he wanted to know.. I realized I was out of my element.. 👽
Really resonate with the undersharing point and how that isn't talked about much since the stereotype is autistic people always infodumping and not knowing when to stop talking. I'm in my 20s but was actually diagnosed as a small child and essentially developed a shame complex around my autism and learned to mask highly in order to blend in and hide any signs of it (also bc it felt expected of me to do thanks to all the "therapy" I was put thru as a kid 🙃). I think very early on I internalized that oversharing is bad and to this day I struggle to talk about things I'm interested in because I never know how much is appropriate to talk about so I always err on the side of sharing less and focusing more on the other person. This ends up making me feel alienated and like even my friends don't know me because I have so much difficulty being authentic about my interests particularly the Special ones unless I'm being asked specific questions about them.
Also just wanna say I've been watching for a lil while now as part of my unmasking journey but first time commenting, ty for everything you do Irene ❤
Another thing I really struggle with is:
- I can do small talk
- I have friends, and can unmask around them
But ... how do I go from one to the other? I don't know how to switch from someone to make small talk with to someone I can make friends with. The ones I made friends with was explicitly them accepting me at my weirdest, or being ND themselves, or through another friend.
But while I can often easily converse, I don't know how to switch to developing friendships, and maintaining them.
wow that's really incredible already, kind of jealous. i actually saw a video on youtube the other day describing how to deal with sharing personal details vs smalltalk rather than mask vs unmasking.
it said to test the waters incrementally. share something small and insignificant first, and then, if they take it well, escalate it a little bit and see how they'd take that. apparently it's a bit like friendship-flirting.
Whelp, I just just learned today (at 34) that "play fighting" exists. It just feels like bullying. I refuse to be friends with anyone who talks with people that way, it's terrible.
90% of the time it's not even well intented. It's just masking for assholes and narcissists to be able to exert their self-entertaining bullying on others with minimal consequences... .
To a degree it goes back to the notion that Autists are mostly spiritually healthy individuals in an actual disordered world. The normalisation of malice is not mormal and we just call it out for what it is
..
One of the worst features of neurotypicals is that being shitty is part of their normal social repertoire.
I remember how it took me literally years to understand the small talk concept of responding to "How are you doing?" didn't require the unvarnished truth but a "Okay/Fine" was expected instead.
It took me forever to get to the point where I could (deliberately) alternate without it sounding stilted
- THEN not long after I got that down, I had someone express annoyance with my polite response, wanting a more personal/honest answer, who was a casual acquaintance & not someone close enough to have received such an answer imo and I was /extremely/ upset.
I felt that the rules were being changed on me without warning, when I had been so proud of myself for finally making the "I'm doing fine, how are you?" actually sound natural. I was genuinely angry at the person, myself and society as a whole.
(It took an embarrassingly long time to realize that this other person was maybe experiencing their own social deficit)
My brand of autistic humor involves embracing the absurd ways my brain works and turning it upside down. I love puns because it takes a moment for my brain to process both what I'm hearing and the social context it's said in; and in that moment, my brain finds 2-3 unrelated words that either sound similar or are related to something that sounds similar. I love humor that plays off of absurdity and non sequiturs (like Monty Python) because no one is the butt of the joke; everyone is *equally* confused, and that's the point. Humor like that gives me a safe way to be an equal participant in the laughter.
I'm with you on play fighting, poking fun at people, etc.. Any kind of joke that makes fun of me immediately puts me on the defensive, even when I know the person doing it is on my side. It especially affected me as a kid, because my dad would poke fun at me pretty regularly... I think he probably meant well, but it hurt every time.
I relate to what you say mostly except the Monty Python humour used to go totally over my head or I would still take it literally. I couldn’t understand why it was funny and it gave me a weird uncomfortable feeling. I gradually learned to get it, but then only found it funny in a vicarious way in that it made me think of how my friends found it funny and would quote it and I would find that amusing, if that makes sense.
@@tracik1277 It does! I discovered them for the first time with one of my first "real" friend groups, so I have pleasant memories associated with watching Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I guess I just decided none of it made sense, and that felt a lot like real life, but because my friends were having fun, so did I.
It was harder to escape what it felt like when my dad made fun of me. One of the ways I healed from that was by changing my own brand of humor to make sure I never targeted a person. I'll laugh at events and situations, but never at a person. If I'm talking about a person in detail to others, I try to make sure I'm only talking about the things I like about them. I can't fix the way I felt growing up, but I can make sure no one else ever feels the same way.
@@majorqueue1676 I like your comment very much and vibe with you totally on all that.
I like Monty Python as well - it’s so random and on par with my brand of humour. Had someone try what I think was shock comedy on me and I was just too shocked to be amused.
I think for play-fighting you really got to know the person enough to understand what will actually hurt them and what they themselves don’t mind and find funny. This is only possible in relationships with self aware people that are good at communicating when they feel uncomfortable. Unfortunately too many people don’t say anything when they have a problem with you, and those are the people to stay clear of as an autistic person.
So much of this resonates with me. I'm 36 and freshly diagnosed (as of one week ago) with level one autism spectrum disorder, so I'm still figuring out the many different ways in which my neurodivergence manifests in my life. I think that one of the reasons I always waited for everyone else in a classroom to share is that it gave me the most opportunity to figure out what the proper amount of sharing was.
What was the very first step you took to get your adult diagnosis? I have no clue where to even start haha
@@chloehenry2037 I logged onto my health insurance company's website and searched for a psychologist within my network who worked with autistic adults. It was not a straightforward process, unfortunately.
My personal favorite way of play fighting is in the form of playground insults
“Silly goose”
“Poopy head”
Etc.
Works on all ages
Y E S. I got into an argument with the guy I’ve been seeing about me not socializing with people. And I’m like, you do not understand. Needing to socialize at work & being around people at work all the time is so draining. I need time to be alone. I like having friends but I never have the energy to hang out with anyone. All of my “free” time is spent cleaning my apartment, playing with my cat, cooking for myself, & recharging.
a video about autistic humor would be super interesting 🩵
"What you need to know? I just need to know what you need to know, so I know what to tell you" is so familiar thing. Very, very true.
I relate to this so much! Please make a part two!
One of the kinda big things that have made me doubt myself about being autstic is that I have such a hard time sharing. Like I kept getting told everything I was saying was boring or unnecessary when I was younger, especially by friends. I just, have such a hard time trying to figure out what else I should be saying, like I can't just monolog about something, I need people to ask me questions. This became a huge thing in a past relationship. Within the first 2 weeks, I asked him specifically to ask me more questions, because I have a hard time just sharing things about myself or my interests and by the end of our two year relationship, after asking him a few more times, I felt so disconnected from him. Like we only ever talked about his things, because every conversation I tried to start ended in a few seconds or minutes.
Thats why I feel like im not close with my parents. I know so much about my mom, but i feel like she barely knows me. I mean, I know how to carry on other peoples conversations, or ask the right questions to them, sometimes I just wished they could do the same for me and gave me more time.
I feel like I repeated myself a lot, but thanks for putting this idea more into words, and are showing that not everyone is going to be able to infodump.
I relate to this thank you
Wow yeah I totally get you. Everyone seems able to just talk, but I can only say a few sentences unless they ask me questions. Makes it so hard to not seem boring to people. I’m currently getting assessed for ASD and it’s just so hard to tell her everything because I’m for whatever reason incapable of saying what I need to.
yeah i see some autistics talking about how they love to infodump but i would have no idea how to do that and if i start i always very quickly cut myself off because having a non-socially acceptable special interest at about 14 got me constantly put down by my classmates and family
Yes to the part about being told you’re boring. This would always confuse me because sometimes the person bored with my conversation would also monologue about the same subject. As long as it was them doing the talking it was interesting.
And also being told I was selfish, but observing how most people do seem self-absorbed. Much of my unmasking process now is undoing the persona that worked really hard to be interested in everyone else to the point of essentially being nonexistent myself because that’s what got me to be so well-liked and accepted.
@@smileyhumanbeing Yeah exactly! Sometimes I find myself people pleasing to the point where I'm just saying things I think they want to hear instead of what I actually think because I don't want to get on anyone's nerves, but I'm so frustrated with pretending.
Teasing. I never understood teasing, especially as a kid. To me, it was just being mean. Now, as an adult, I still struggle with it. Especially in knowing when to stop or when it's inappropriate. Like, I picked up on the patterns of teasing to recognize it, but then I can easily get carried away with it, then people end up mad at me.
I used to overanalyze so many social situations before, because I realized I was simply scared of the consequences that could happen after. Now I realized that things happen in life that we can't control. If bad things do happen, I have learned to learn from it and move on. Positive things can happen after. This is how life is and I hate that I used to be stuck so much on repeating the social situation. I still have some difficulties switching up with my coworkers in my own department, because I'm not really used to be friends with them, but in another department there are people that I connect with better, so I do relax a bit more with them and end up being professional back at work again
OMG the jab back "your dad left you" is something i laughed at in horror because all my neurospicy friends and i definitely have had scenarios like this at least ONCE. damn
I made it super weird in some of my first attempts at friendships and relationships because ambiguity made me uncomfortable and I wanted people to tell me what their intentions were
“Why don’t you choose to hang out with people, you’re someone people would want to be around”
The amount of times I’ve asked myself this…I’m 36 and just now on my journey thanks to creators like you.
Turning 36 in two weeks. It’s devastating to have been treated so horribly by the education and health systems in place and having to learn about our very basic identity and needs from gen z content creators. It is very scary to realize that if this content were not available in just a few years we might end up just as a sad statistic. Sorry just venting and sharing solidarity. ❤🙏
37 and had started to process that i was different. That i did not think like other people, and that was ok. Then, an employee was assigned for me to train the first night, and it went awesome. The second night, our energy kept rising, and my brian started to short-circuit i did not comprehend, but the process was completing, and just as a customer came in, i told him to get it. He said, "i am bad at social interactions." I said "thats ok, me too. " This guy was easy a regualar, so i told him that usually he came in bouncing, but since he was walking slow, he was mostly tiried, so he might not be able to handle your energy just speak sofffffffff.... " and freak out.
It's been hard for me articulate to others why I feel I have social deficits. They say things like "You do great! You're polite and considerate! People like you! You're better than you think you are!" Mostly it's very well intentioned, I think, but it's also frustrating because *I* know I'm struggling.
So I deeply appreciate this video that just laid out all these things I've been experiencing! I related to every single one. Thank you for making this video!
Hi! I am a 44 yr old woman. Mostvof my life I thought that I am a very social person. But I often still found excuses to stay home. Time went on and ebentually my daughter got diagnosed with high functioning autism and ADD. I knew we had much in common but never thought I too might be autistic. But I am the person you are describing. I can connect with almost anyone and laser focus on a subject. The switching back and forth at work and private life and the need for recovery.
I was telling my mother today that I honestly dont seem to be able to handle friendships. I am a great friend for a short whike and then Im back in my cave for very long periods of time and may reach out, out of guilt for not being a good friend. I feel that the price to connect is just too high to pay. If I coukd be at home for six months without ever going out or seeing anyone, I think I would be so happy.
Thank you for a lovely video.
That play fighting segment finally explained how I keep ending up in abusive friendships and romantic relationships. :P
I recently had a 2+ hour conversation with a friend of my mom. She was visiting over from another country. It felt great to talk and have a deep meaningful conversation. But I can't expresses how terrible I felt afterwards. I was exausted. My voice was close to breaking, I felt tired and my energy was fully drained. I only started to feel better when I went out to ikea to do my thing. As much as I love to talk I need the quiet time. I need time to myself. I never understood why I was autistic because I thought I wasn't. But the fact I sometimes prefer to blurb out a word every five minutes or talk for half an hour then shut down and consider this hanging out is really telling. I guess my therapist wasn't wrong after all when she told me I really am autistic and there's no denying that. She diagnosed me. So I guess she could see through me like glass. Expecially since I went in there because I look awfully skinny to many people and came out there with a diagnosis for Aspergers and adhd. But no eating disorder.
I’ve always found it hard to interact with coworkers in an informal setting. I would have to observe how people interact with each other in order to understand how I’m supposed to act. I think that’s the way I approached learning social norms of every new social circle I was getting into. I can’t believe I hadn’t realized it’s an autism thing.
OMG!
I was diagnosed in my 66th year. I never realized anyone else had these issues. Thank you so much for this discussion. You articulate situations I didn't know could be explained. Thank you and all the autistic UA-camrs.
Something a lot of people don't understand is that your ability to mask peaks your late 30s/early 40s, and then often drops off a cliff. I've just fallen off that cliff, and it's caused massive anxiety and avoidance around social activities...and my friends are definitely having a hard time adjusting to the new version of me that they're meeting for the first time.
This may possibly be due to the fact that a whole new generation of teenagers and young adults have led social change by the time you're 40 they're 20, so it makes sense that the mask you constructed doesn't work anymore
Why does it drop off a cliff?
@@Catlily5Menopause!
@@faeriesmak According to the assessors who diagnosed me with autism I don't mask. That is not true but I don't mask as much as many females. I just went through menopause so that is interesting to consider.
Ik burnout makes this worse too!
I am bad at play fighting too, but my understanding is that it’s important to go after something the person feels secure about. If you know they are confident that they are smart, then you could call them dumb, but if you know they have anxiety about not being smart enough, that would be off limits.
I agree that if there is a person that I’ve struggled to get along with at work, even if they behave better now, I find it really difficult to not feel awkward or put-off in their presence. Moving on emotionally is very difficult, especially if I feel I’ve been wronged for no good reason in the past.
can relate so much to this! Yesterday I started speaking to someone because it felt like they wanted to talk to me and it got a little flirty (which I don't typically do) but it was fun. then when I tried to make what I thought was a cute joke using something that they said earlier in the convo (but I didn't deliver it in a neurotypical way since I can be quite dry for those who know me and i was starting to feel comfortable) it landed wrong and I think the other person thought I was being serious. I should have just said it was a joke but then I further explained and made it worse and the interaction ended. I've been beating myself up about it while also being proud of myself for actually starting that conversation.
First of all: I am sorry for any mistakes😅 and I hope you can understand my stories lol
I always overshare. When I went to High School I even told my male teacher that I am on my period and that I bled through my pants and that I have to go home (he did not even see me, I have sent him an email saying that). And my mom and friends were all like: why did you say that? Just say you're sick.
And I was like: yeah, but it is just what happened?!
And I have also told some other teacher that I never raise my hand in class because I am terrified of him.
But the worst moment was, when I sent an email to my math teacher, saying that I did my homework (which got a grade) with help from my friend. Of course he got really mad and asked me why I would tell him that and all my friends called me, asking why I say the truth, but I literally did not expect my teacher getting angry. I thought he would understand and I felt like a liar, because I got an F on the same homework the week before. Why would I become completly brilliant in math overnight? So I had to tell him that I've gotten help😂 I thought I was right and he would be thankful lmao
22:24 I relate to this so much. Even when I'm in therapy. It's so overwhelming
Edit: I would love a part two :)
I agree with your comment both in the "relating part" and asking for a part two!!
The thing about prioritizing recharge is very relatable. In the periods of my life where I've lived by myself (which I'm back in now) that part is kind of easy (because I CAN just spend all weekend doing my own thing), and I have to put stuff like "invite Susan to brunch" on my calendar so that I don't get TOO isolated. It's like the optimum level of socialization for my mental health is just slightly higher than what I think I want in the moment...but I also can't push myself too far or meltdowns and burnout happens!
Hi Irene! I too, hate play fighting. It's not fun, it makes me so uncomfortable (but your editing when you were speaking as your school friend made me cackle)
My worst masking nightmare is that one " funny ha-ha, yooo guys and gals, how do you do fellow kids !!? " teacher, professor or boss, we all know that one, wants to seem "cool", does and says "cool" things. That's a problem to me, I can't get loose and that leads to these teachers target me because I don't laugh or smile at their jokes or don't react to them in this "laid back/chill" way. In my head, it's : authority figure = shy but diligent student mask ( quiet, does what I'm told, not making trouble ). and it completely contrasts with my " quirky, funny friend lol " mask. It's like that meme where spongebob reads book and one of his eyes looks at right page and the other at the left simultaneously. I can't be both or I go crazy !!! Or sooner or later I'm going to do something stupid. I already did that many times in the past when I was younger and didn't drop the " class clown " mask, I once started loudly commenting how stupid sentences were in english class or even said curse words because my friends were cursing during the break and laughing I thought it's going to be peak comedy and they are going to laugh. Long story short I lost friends that day and had to go to the headmaster to explain my behavior. For my friends it was natural, they knew what to do and what to not do. I didn't, and also yearned to be accepted and be the liked, funny kid.
I related to every single point you shared, especially with the over/undersharing and memorizing social cues then freezing when the algorithm gets changed up on me. Def shared this video with my discord group, its so important since most people have a stereotype about what autism is.
One of the biggest things is not just navigating neurotypical world and interactions, but that we often realize how abusive many of the people in our lives actually are. The whole “play fighting” is not how kind, compassionate, empathetic neurotypicals actual play and joke with each other, especially among women who have decentered men. There is a lot of misogyny in the whole “play fighting” social interaction and most of it falls into veiled contempt of immature, jealous, narcissistically disordered people who need to punch down with their jokes, rather than joking punching up. There is a big difference in that humor. Like the whole girl math trend, was poking fun at our ways of thinking about money or time or food or fashion, it was cute, it was wholesome, it was hilarious. Then we turned vicious when the fellas wanted to start punching down at us on social media, so we turned boy math into a complete mean joke punching down at the men. Boy math became tragic rather than funny. While we could laugh at some of the ridiculous stuff there is also an element of anger and sadness to it.
People who use punch down humor don’t actually like it returned to them from most people. Some will have an exception to this if the other person punching down at them is someone they admire, respect, or want to wear that person like a suit (meaning they want to steal that person’s personality for their own mask.) however narcissistic masking is different. And I’m not saying all people who narcissistic mask are people who have a personality disorder, they can be just extremely immature emotionally and mentally. Naturally the younger our mind is the more natural narcissism we have.
Not just naturally getting social cues as we neurodivergent people seem be, we can cognitively learn to see the patterns, but there are so many patterns that we end up studying psychology for 25 years just to figure out how to read people and function in the world. But as you learn how to understand how humans operate, you start to realize how abusive people are in general. That’s when I realized I’d been masking so much because everyone in my life has been abusive, ranging from mildly so to extreme. I have known 5 humans in my 43 years of life that I would consider to be authentically and consistently kind, compassionate and empathetic. Every romantic relationship with males have been abusive. And since I haven’t had any romantic relationships with females in my adult years, the teen relationships were short lived and experimental as a bi woman.
We aren’t designed to be in relationships with abusive people. But the world is so abusive now it’s hard to not be surrounded by them. So we are choosing to be alone until we can locate our tribe of kind, compassionate, empathetic, and loving people. Science and statistics don’t realize how many neurodivergent women are out here living high masking lives and the. Suffering from nervous breakdowns (literally, it’s not this soft gentle thing called burnout, it’s sometimes as rough as a psychotic break from reality level) every few years their entire life, feeling trapped by the society around them forcing them to constant mask for the comfort of those around us while they abuse US!
Think about how often us high maskers demand things from other people in terms of their behavior towards us? We rarely demand things, we are often trained in childhood to not have any personal boundaries, that our wants, needs, and desires or special interests were of no importance and that we should be centering everyone else’s happiness and comfort over our own. We are gaslit from day one and then trained to gaslight ourselves. This world is so messed up that the messed up people hate when we reflect their actions back to them. We the pattern seers throw a wrench in abusive and manipulative people’s tactics cause we can track and remember them, and we see them. We are dangerous. And because we naturally use logic and reason to temper our emotions and can actually learn to regulate ourselves in some pretty creative ways, we have a hard time understanding the chaotic, disregulated, and disjointed behaviors of abusive people. We are just left wondering “why the heck are you nuts doing that?” And then we’re called the crazy ones!
I can enjoy “playfighting” with close friends and family. people who, we both know each other well enough to firstly know enough things about each other, and also know what of those are likely to be fun rather than actually hurtful, and we trust each other so that if one of us does accidentally cross a boundary we can stop the game and apologize.
But I get SO confused when people I hardly know, or have just met try to use it as a way to get to know each other? Or start a conversation? Some people seem to genuinely try to use it that way? And because they don’t know me they either pick something superficial that I am sensitive about (like being quiet) or they have to kind of make something up that isn’t even true of me and I’m just like huh? And I have no idea how to join in cause I don’t know what their lovable foibles that they’re comfortable making fun of are, I’ve just met them, it doesn’t work like that but they want me to say something?
(I think observing the things that the person is comfortable making fun of themself for can be a good indication of what’s appropriate to tease them about, but if you don’t like doing it at all then I just don’t think you should have to do it anyway).
Had that happen to me recently (I’m undiagnosed but likely have ADHD with a possibility of autism) and yes, I don’t understand it when I don’t know them and they don’t know me. Why is it that people think this is a good idea to get to know someone else? Have they had success in the past using this method? It’s confusing when I don’t know what their intentions are.
I'm an under-sharer, and I don't even think it's an overadjustment or a reaction to being told to shut up. As far as I know, I've always been this way. It's like there's a barrier between what's going on inside me and my communication system, especially speech. I don't know what to say, I don't know how to say it, I may not even be aware that something is there to be said.
Thank you for highlighting there's a flipside to the infodumping stereotype.
this is so real. really related to the scripts and internal algorithms for understanding social encounters. i used to work at starbucks (no clue how i lasted so long there, lol) and I had a mental flow chart for navigating customer interactions. any time i heard or experienced a new conversation or topic with a customer, i added it to the flow chart. made for some awkward encounters with customers before i figured out how to get through that specific convo lol
This is me too! I’m 36 and I burnt tf out in 2019 after a year of working there. I used to make 3-4 drinks at a time and I worked like a machine, socially and at performing job tasks. It got to a point where I just could not get to or through a shift without crying. 😢 that was my second longest job I think, if you don’t count any of the careers I had as a student at 4 different colleges, none from which I have any degrees. 🥺🩷🙏 glad we both made it out alive. I’m hoping that the late diagnosis and increasing understanding of autism will help us get through life better now than before.
I think play fighting can be so confusing because most of us are so literal.
I always struggle with what to tell medical professionals and leave an appointment thinking I should have told them something that I didn't and how that's going to impact their diagnosis or opinion or course of treatment. It's a lot of pressure.
I'm about 7 minutes in, and I'm relating to everything. Thanks for the video.
I know this video is from a while ago, but if you haven’t already, I would LOVE to see a part two! I related to literally everything you talked about, I never even thought about them like that but it’s so accurate for me!
Oh my gosh, Irene! This video really hit home for me big time! I related SO MUCH when you were talking about "play fighting". This is something I've always had problems with my whole life, but now that I know I'm autistic it makes more sense. I am very sensitive and I take things very literally, so when someone says something mean to me, I don't really hear it as a joke, and I don't understand why it's supposed to be funny. I have bombed so many times when I have tried to "play fight" back to someone, and ended up hurting them and/or making them angry. It just leaves me feeling very confused, and leaves the other person thinking I'm and A-hole.
I also related so much to the over-sharing/under-sharing dilemna. I never seem to get it right! I try to do what I hear/see other people doing when it comes to sharing, but I'm still completely clueless and can't seem to do it the socially acceptable way.
for a while i was convinced i had DID , because of how prominent my masks were sometimes. like i would think in other people’s voices, think like that character or person, and act like the person, but not knowing how to just be myself. so i then ended up with this ‘system’ of different masks that all function and serve in different ways. i couldn’t understand why i would copy other people so instinctively, and i didn’t know how else to exist or act. it was almost like echolalia.
then i started to realize that my mask would be situationally inappropriate. like i’d be collected and like ‘mature’ and ‘articulate’ on one hand, then later become impulsive and swearing and it’s almost like i’m a different person.
but i don’t have amnesia, and i don’t have people in my head.
that’s when i started to suspect, (after shaming and beating myself up for a while but then realizing that it’s not a conscious choice i’m making) that maybe this is part of masking.
Oh my god this explains my behavior so much. I only got diagnosed a year ago, and I’m still finding things out about myself.
I will say, as someone currently in medical school, that I really wish all doctors and medical professionals wouldn’t dismiss patient’s concerns or comments, like saying “I didn’t need to know that, that’s not relevant”. It just belittles people and makes them less willing to talk. And we’re taught to ask for details, like when a symptom started, where the pain is, what it feels like, we’re taught to take a thorough history instead of making assumptions and then only asking a few questions. I will add one comment that if you feel like a medical professional isn’t taking a concern of yours seriously, or hasn’t asked about it directly, to just tell them. “Does the fact that I’m having this symptom make a difference” or “I’m concerned about how severe the pain is”. Unfortunately, there’s always going to be miscommunication between both of us and sometimes you need to be explicit with your concerns to get the message across. If they’re still dismissive of you, screw them, and I can only hope you find a different provider that takes you seriously (given the awful state of healthcare these days).
I think with banter you have to be a level of friendship or intimacy to properly gauge what is appropriate to say back
Ooooh yes, such helpful insights. I never connected those dots, I had realized in the past that I don’t get and can’t replicate play fighting, jokes at friends’ expenses etc., but never saw it through the autism lens. But it makes so. much. sense!
There's a term "code switching" which I think is adjacent to this. Sometimes the appropriate code switches without much transition time and it can take a few times of that novel transition to be practiced with the appropriate switch.
Okay, this was so relatable. And I died laughing when you described the example of how you tried to jab back with "your dad left you, and..." 😂 I have never understood play fighting! Baffling for me too. I try it off and on as an adult with my husband, and it rarely works. I end up having to use tone tags out loud, like "sorry, that was meant to be flirty" 🤦🏼♀️ I mostly stick with direct, sincere language. That's what I understand and am more fluent in.
I'm 28, and I'm just now realizing I have autism (self-diagnosed). As a woman who constantly masks, I really related to your bit about under-sharing. That is so real!! Although I love my friends and love hearing them share, I end up talking about 5 seconds for every minute they talk, and I end up leaving almost every social situation feeling unseen and more alone. :(
I definitely overshare and I always cringe later when I think about it after. The other thing I really relate to is play fighting, I have always thought of it as teasing. And I also had a friend in high school that I had to stop being friends with for similar reasons to you.
I can occasionally tell if someone is teasing me. For example I can usually tell when my siblings are teasing me because I've had a lifetime to study them. I have a couple of friends that I've known for about a decade, with them I can sometimes tell. Everyone else I have a harder time with. And I try not to tease back for the same reasons, people almost never think it's funny. I even recently recomitted myself to not making jokes in a group chat I'm in because I sent a gif (that was meant to be a joke) and the reaction to it was this emoji '🤨'/nothing, so I don't think it was funny to the other people in the group 🤷🏼♀️
thank you for talking about this. I've struggled trying to understand my social deficits from a masking point of view and I appreciate your discernment.
I think the playfighting point you discussed hinged a lot on being Autistic and not wanting to be seen as inadequate and less than. I was really self conscious about being called stupid. But I went to a very wild poor school I'm actually one of the best at telling jokes being my Autistic brain cab come from left field while most people are one dimensional. I had to learn to crack jokes as a masks. It's always interesting to see how Autistics can be so different. Love your content Irene!!!
But I do see what you are saying in the sense that I have taken joking too far.
Yes, I agree! I'm usually quite good with playfighting because I have done it for so long and gained an understanding of it. However the moment someone jokes about me being stupid, that really hurts
The talk about play fighting reminds me of the talk about sarcasm. For me it’s like this: when I say something meant to be sarcastic, no one else understands that that’s what I’m going for. When other people use sarcasm, I can only understand it to be sarcasm depending on the tone of voice they use. If someone is using a strange voice and waves their hands a specific way I’ll be able to tell that they aren’t serious. If they’re using the same voice they’d use in a normal conversation, I won’t be able to tell (even if it’s something outlandish!)
Similarly, if someone is play fighting and they tell me that I’m stupid/ugly/etc in a serious manner I *will* take it seriously. It’s hard to navigate 😔
the part about the questions hit really hard... i've been questioning if i'm autistic or not for the past few months and it's really hard to sort through all the information bc i'm already high masking with my adhd. going to the doctor with pain and waiting for them to ask is something i still struggle with (among other things! social patterns are hard too) and you put it in words so perfectly, so thank you!
PLAY FIGHTING OMG I literally just had a friendship end because I thought I was doing it right and I was just hurting her and I had absolutely no idea. I wish people would communicate.
Thank you so much for the part at 8:28 about preferring regulation over socialization on your down time. I feel guilty about being too "peopled out" a lot of the time to even want to hang out with my friends - especially after being social all day at work. I can be very charming, but it's exhausting, and I just want to go crawl under a rock to recharge. Is there a good way to explain this to others?
If there is a difference between being "sassy" and being "rude," I haven't found it yet. Please share it in Episode 2 if you figure it out. (And yes, of course we want an Episode 2!)
The medical stuff relate so much. I was in my mid thirties having health crisis before I learn that not only did I have endometriosis, but also that any of my symptoms were not normal. No one had asked me those questions before so I had never given an answer that lead to a wtf lol
I can relate to all of the instances of “AI Socialising” getting stuck or confused and unable to generate logical suitable output in the correct Social Genre.
I’m autistist schizoid (schizoid means extreme loner, not losing a sense of reality)
My Social AI often leads me into situations where My Mask is automatically too nice and I get treated in a demeaning way or exploited.
I never got the mean jokes / 'playfighting' either, and by extension I despise pranks. They make me irrationally angry. I just can't fathom why people want to trick others and abuse their trust.
I'm super high masking and just had a doctors appointment today! The new setting was frustrating along with not knowing which questions to ask to get help too. It's nice to hear from someone who has been in that situation! That said I would LOVE a part 2 with the rest of the attributes at another time! I feel so much better and less alone after this video. Thank you!!
I think one of the major deficits of a neurotypical world is assumed knowledge. I'm neurotypical and even I find myself in situations that are strange and awkward because of this assumption of knowledge. I was talking to a co-worker who was talking to me about some recent health issues that he had and he was a little frustrated with me because I was unaware of them. I had to sit down and tell him you didn't tell me you were going through these health issues. And because of the nature of our work we rarely see each other face-to-face so there would have been no opportunity for me to gather this information through casual contact. I just saw the frustration and confusion melt out of his face as he realized why I hadn't been sympathetic to him previously.
I think it's an important thing for autistic people to know that assumed knowledge should not be a prerequisite for engagement. If you don't know something it's perfectly okay to ask and if that person acts like you're problem for asking, that is on them and that is not your fault.
I was just thinking about this the other day and thinking maybe I'm not actually autistic but I feel this so hard, 3 minutes in already.
The ruminating over analyzing over explaining and the shame and guilt involved after I have to confront someone,a misunderstanding or heated argument with someone cripples me for days
Oh, and Yes: Please make a part 2. This is (for me) the greatest video about the topic, so far.
I SO relate to the frustration with being at doctor's offices and not knowing what to tell them, or even, how to "correctly" answer a question, e.g. if I think I understand that the way the question is asked influences my answer in a way that it is not actually what they want to know.
(especially with mental health evaluations. Questions like "do you have more trouble concentrating" (and I get stuck on the "more than what?.. I always have that trouble"), or "do you have more anxiety than your friends (and I am like... Most of my friends have diagnosed anxiety disorders, so truthfully: no. However, I guess they want to know whether I am rather anxious, which would then be the opposite answer). [Similarly with perception questions like "Are you the first one to notice a fly in the room?"... I am like.. "depends on whether the fly is moving, and where, and who else is in the room. I have, however, very sensitive hearing, and if there was a sound in a room I would likely notice it. But it takes so much extra effort to overcome my intention to tell the literal truth, and "lie" in order to give the "relevant" answer, that I think is probably asked for.
The same struggle I also have in conversations with friends and family, where people get frustrated of me "zooming into" a part of a sentence, that I am answering to, because I cannot answer the whole thing that was said to me, when I consider it to be contradictory. And if I say that, of course the opposite of me will think I am nit-picky, about their choice of words/phrasing, or I am "reading into" what they say, when though I, at that time, feel like I am just interpreting what they meant.
I also often end up analyzing social interactions, especially in groups, afterwards and feel embarrassed and worried that I said/shared too much. I always call it "hindsight-anxiety".
wow.. I never noticed all those connections. Your video really gave me a lot to think about.
This is so relatable! I have been diagnosed with GAD and I’m on the waiting list for an autism assessment, and I’m really scared and worried about questions that are formulated like this!
The way you expressed every discomfort around showering I have had and then showed the literal picture of the shower curtain I have been using the past four years 😂. I can point to going on tour as a musician and having to utilize some questionable living spaces as to how I have overcome a select few of these sensitivities. Before that though the feelings of discomfort around hygiene were buried under maskulinity and/or “being a boy.” I did not expect to be so well seen in this video. Thank you for sharing.
PART TWO PLS my thoughts and experiences are very hard for me to verbalize and conceptualize and you do it so well and say it exactly what i would want to say
I loved hearing you talk about these topics!
I'm a late-in-life autism and ADHD diagnosis, and as a high-masking individual, I always felt like I was chronically asking myself "why can't I understand?" when it came to a variety of social cues and situations. My response to play-fighting and teasing was and is essentially to shut down. I'm better at responding now than I was as a young person, but many times it's still a huge challenge. I describe my matrix of social responses very similarly to how you described having memorized a set of cues related to the person and place, and I've always gotten massively overstimmed at group-oriented social events.
Thank you so much for putting this out there. You make me feel less alien and alone, and I'm very grateful for it.
Please part two! I related so HARD to these. 😅 WHAT DO YOU NEED FROM ME?! Is my life motto 😂
IDK about only unmasking around romantic partners, but I would agree that whatever your closest, most trusted relationships are, that's probably where you do it - and maybe those are your closest relationships because you know you CAN.
Like, my parents knew I was a deeply weird kid, and none of us knew why at the time - but they rolled with that and didn't try to do to much to change me apart from helpfully verbally explaining a lot of social rules. The friends I've kept for 20 years are the ones where we met by one of us going off on a topic (totally skipping the small talk) and where we were never bothered by each other's eccentricities. (They aren't autistic - but one does have ADHD, and the other is a fellow academic who just can go off on her subjects of interest for like an hour!)
I can relate to the playfight part, oversharing, not knowing what to share, and pretty much everything you said. I've also always had a hard time using slangs, it sounds weird to me. And, please, part II 😍
This video was like looking into a mirror except the mirror has subtitles and can tell me exactly what's going on with me and why I do certain things.
I am in the process of being evaluated for ADHD, anxiety, and autism, but I find it very difficult to explain because I don't have the right words for it. Your videos have helped me a lot in figuring out how to explain what they need to know. I still need to have the courage to be open enough to shed all the masks, but I'm getting closer, and your videos have contributed to that. Thank you for sharing; it's incredibly brave. Thank you for being you :)
Yeah- even your doctors can make you overwhelmed or confused or not enough time to bring up the right things or the right way.
At doctors now, I just say please ask me all the questions and cut me off if I talk too much.