Adoption is far from sensical and even though heresy has become an overused word without the teeth it once had, it is still the accurate word for adoptionism, as the apostolic church has declared it since the 2nd century.
@@TyrelBramwell Yes, adoptionism makes sense to intellligent Christians, Christians that actually use logic and reason along with their genuine faith instead having blind faith. "Heresy" was used to prevent people from questioning religious authority and to stop those who challenged doctrine. Screaming "heresy" doesn't work today and neither does outdated doctrine that is based on church-created myths and not Truth.
@@JNeil1975 It literally contradicts the bible. Tt only "makes sense" if you pick and choose which parts of the bible to accept as the word of God, and if you are doing that, why bother with Christianity at all?
@@TyrelBramwell Yes, just as Yeshua became the divinized son of God through the resurrection, so (according as he said in Luke 20:36) those who are “worthy of the resurrection and the age to come will be children of God” Wasn’t Yeshua worthy of the resurrection? Wasn’t he the firstborn from the dead? Unfortunately incorrect doctrine can prevent people from seeing what is plain as day.
@@perfectmugwagwa9371 Jesus wasn’t just a mere man, but a very special man. He became the firstborn from the dead of many brothers. YHWH has only one firstborn-the man Yeshua the messiah.
@@Mik-ha-Elbro they also believed Jesus wasn’t born through a virgin. It’s clear in Matthew chapter 1 that Jesus was born of a virgin. They had a similar scripture like Matthew without the first 2 chapters which includes the virgin birth so yeah that’s how they got their faith twisted
Adoptionism make much more sense than the pagan idea of the Trinity. The church has NOT always taught the Trinity; there isn't an early church father that teaches the Trinity; many Trinitarian based scholars, try to make these early father speak of the Trinity; however, when you look closely, you realize they only mention or taught about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as distinct individuals that formed a spiritual unity of will, but not one of them, in the first couple hundred years, taught the Trinity as it became known in the Roman Catholic Church and its later Protestant Daughters. It is soooo easy to prove the Trinity is NOT true, just by using the Bible... of course logic proves the Trinity is not true, as well. Jesus as God cannot be true, as the Trinitarians claim. If Jesus were God, then why does he say, "Not my will but Yours" in Luke 22:42? If Jesus and God are just different aspects of the same Deity, then they should have the same will. Also, Jesus says that (John 14:28) God is greater then he is. There is NO way that Jesus could be God and be tested by Satan in the wilderness... How could Satan offer Jesus any kingdom when Jesus, if he were God, already owned everything, including the Devil. Further to this, Jesus, according to Matthew and Mark, could not heal everyone... supposedly because of their unbelief. Surely, if Jesus were God, he could heal anyone, no matter what their beliefs were.... and think of the converts he could have made, if he had healed those who doubted. Jesus also didn't know when the end would come; but stated that only the Father knew (Mark 13:32)... surely, if Jesus was God and the second part of the Holy Trinity, he would have this knowledge. If Jesus is God, then why did he say that he was not good, but only the Father was good? (Mark 10:18). There are sooo many examples that prove, beyond doubt that Jesus is NOT God nor is he a combination of Man and God. Even the Gospel of John's prologue does not suggest that Jesus was God; rather, this passage is talking about the Memra or Logos or Word of God... it was this Word that entered Jesus at his Baptism, adopting Jesus to God. It is actually embarrassing to see people, on youtube, trying to prove that Jesus is God... it just makes them look so silly. Even the Two Powers idea is better than the Trinity... One could say that Jesus was the Logos (a separate entity from God) who came down as Jesus... but, it makes sooooo much more sense to say that this same Logos, entered into the body of the man, Jesus, at his baptism and caused Jesus to be adopted by God.
You’re misguided on so many of your points. Jesus Christ had both a divine will and a human will, his human will (the flesh which was weak) did not wish to die; nevertheless he did the divine will. Read Hebrews 2:9 to understand why Jesus said God is greater than Him, additionally, being the perfect human, it only was right for Jesus to give us the example of what an ideal human ought to do; that is, to submit to the Father in all times. Jesus did own everything; he said “All power in heaven and earth has been given to me” and “take courage, I have conquered the world.” That doesn’t mean that he was a traditional earthly king, as the devil tried to tempt him to be. His earthy reign will be after the second coming. You also misunderstand his healings. Jesus did not perform some type of magic against people’s will, but rather they were saved by faith “your faith has saved you.” Without faith, they could not be saved because God does not throw out our free will. While in his human nature, not yet glorified, Jesus did not know when the end would come because he “emptied himself,” taking on human limitations. That’s why he hungered, thirsted, and died. And your theory on John is disproved by 5 words: “And the Word was God.” It most certainly was NOT something separate. The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is God and was the son of God the Father before he was born of Mary. For example “In him (the Son) were created all things in heaven and on earth.” Jesus also said “I and the father are one” and “honor the son just as you honor the father” and “I am the beginning and the end.” According to Hebrews, God the Father said of Jesus “Your throne, O God, stands forever.” Even the Pharisees recognized that Jesus “made himself equal to God.” If you do not believe Jesus is the Lord God, you do not believe the Word of God. You are in my prayers.
@@Kenny-mu2xb [My, Mike Wolff, Reply to your commeent]: You realize, that nothing you said, made any sense; let's take a look: 1 [FIRST]: You said, "You’re misguided on so many of your points. Jesus Christ had both a divine will and a human will, his human will (the flesh which was weak) did not wish to die; nevertheless he did the divine will." [My, Mike Wolf, Reply]: You just changed what Jesus said... Jesus said NOT HIS WILL, but God's Will be done. Jesus wasn't tapping into some higher new age power of God, to make through his ordeal.... no!!! Rather, Jesus was following GOD'S will. 2 [NEXT], you said: "Read Hebrews 2:9 to understand why Jesus said God is greater than Him, additionally, being the perfect human, it only was right for Jesus to give us the example of what an ideal human ought to do; that is, to submit to the Father in all times." [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Hebrews 2:9 has nothing to do with our discussion. 3 [NEXT]: you said, "Jesus did own everything; he said 'All power in heaven and earth has been given to me” and “take courage, I have conquered the world.' That doesn’t mean that he was a traditional earthly king, as the devil tried to tempt him to be." [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Thank you... you are proving my point. Yes, I agree; Jesus did say that all power in heaven and earth had been GIVEN to him. This means, he CANNOT be God... if he were God, he would not need the power given to him, but would already have had it, since before the time... it would have been his, eternally. 4 [NEXT] you said, "His earthy reign will be after the second coming. You also misunderstand his healings. Jesus did not perform some type of magic against people’s will, but rather they were saved by faith “your faith has saved you.” Without faith, they could not be saved because God does not throw out our free will." [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: There is no free will... the Bible is clear that we can make choices, but that those choices are not freely done... You obviously are not well read in the Scriptures. The passage about Jesus not being able to do miracles, has nothing to do with faith; for we know that Jesus was doing miracles as signs, to convince people that God had sent him... That would mean, that these miracles were signs and not a response to faith. See: John 5L36: "But I have a greater witness than John - my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me." 5 [NEXT]; you said, "While in his human nature, not yet glorified, Jesus did not know when the end would come because he “emptied himself,” taking on human limitations.} [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Thanks again for proving my point. It almost seems like you agree with me. What you just said, proves that Jesus is not yet glorified... if he were God, he would always be glorified. I know, I know, you will likely run to Philippians 2, again (emptied himself)... but, even Philippians does not say, what the Pagan Trinitarians believe it says.... Rather, it simply says, that Jesus was NOT God, but was in the FORM of God or the Image of God, but did not think it right to grasp at equality with God, simply because of this... What he emptied himself of, was the power and the privileges that he had been given, and thus, was not yet glorified, as you correctly stated. None of this shows Jesus to be God. The trinity if a pagan lie.
6 [NEXT]: That’s why he hungered, thirsted, and died. [My, Mike Wolff, Reply] Again, you proved my point with your statement. 7 [NEXT]; you said, "And your theory on John is disproved by 5 words: “And the Word was God.” It most certainly was NOT something separate.' [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]" You are greatly mistaken. You have fallen for the pagan lies of the trinity. There are two ways, we can read this passage: never of them back the trinity. (1) the Word, (Memra / Logos), is the power of God... that filled Jesus, when God adopted him, at his baptism. OR, (2) it can be seen as representing Jesus in his pre-earthly life, if one takes an Arian type view of this passage... and thus, the Jehovah's Witnesses would be correct, with their translation of; "and the word was a god." Not, that one of the most ancient churches, had this translation as well. 8 [NEXT] you said, "The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is God and was the son of God the Father before he was born of Mary. For example “In him (the Son) were created all things in heaven and on earth.” Jesus also said “I and the father are one” and “honor the son just as you honor the father” and “I am the beginning and the end.” [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: The text that you refer to, actually proves MY point; it starts off saying that Jesus is the image of God, not God. Also, if you read this passage, correctly, keeping in mind, all the passages, you have just quoted to me, that all power had been given to Christ, then we know, that God through, Christ, allowed Jesus to set up ALL the authority and power of his church (thrones or powers or rulers or authorities -- from verse 16). This passage, you are referring to has NOTHING to do with Jesus creating the world... he did not do that; rather, God did. Jesus was given all power, to set up his church (verse 18)... as Jesus was the first born of the dead and over all. It is only your trinitarian glasses that keep you from seeing this truth. 9 [NEXT] you said, "According to Hebrews, God the Father said of Jesus “Your throne, O God, stands forever.” [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: This refers to Psalm 45 and refers to a human king as god. If we take this association, literally, you have once, again, proven my point. However, scholarly translators don't like that translation in Hebrews nor the Psalms, and suggest it should read more like; Your throne is God... like we say, God is my strength. Either way, there is no trinity here. 10 [NEXT]: Even the Pharisees recognized that Jesus “made himself equal to God.” [My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Sigh, all misguided trinitarians try to bring up John's gospel -- 10:34-36,-- when the pharisees charge Jesus was claiming to be God... but, Jesus refers to the OT and says, 'It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ -- Ps 82:6 -- So, Jesus is NOT referring to himself as God, but saying; "Sure, if you think I am saying I am a god, then, it is the same as these guys, in the OT."... or even the Angels, as some like to say.... [FINALLY] you said, "If you do not believe Jesus is the Lord God, you do not believe the Word of God. You are in my prayers." [My, Mike Wolff, Reply] I would suggest that you have greatly misunderstood the Bible... you certainly didn't present any evidence to support your claims, that Jesus is God.
I bought a used copy of The Lutheran Cyclopedia some time ago. Unfortunately, it’s in a box in storage at the moment. 🙏
In a box?! Say it isn’t so! 😀
@@TyrelBramwell I became an Oregonian this last weekend. I’m near my daughters and other family now!
That’s great.
Adoptionism makes sense, not heresy. "Heresy" is a word that has lost its power.
Adoption is far from sensical and even though heresy has become an overused word without the teeth it once had, it is still the accurate word for adoptionism, as the apostolic church has declared it since the 2nd century.
@@TyrelBramwell Yes, adoptionism makes sense to intellligent Christians, Christians that actually use logic and reason along with their genuine faith instead having blind faith. "Heresy" was used to prevent people from questioning religious authority and to stop those who challenged doctrine. Screaming "heresy" doesn't work today and neither does outdated doctrine that is based on church-created myths and not Truth.
@@JNeil1975 It literally contradicts the bible. Tt only "makes sense" if you pick and choose which parts of the bible to accept as the word of God, and if you are doing that, why bother with Christianity at all?
@derDeutsche-mh2zjand there we go!
lol the canon was already in use by the beginning of the second century
Adoptionism is a clear teaching of Scripture in Romans 8
Are you talking about the adoption of the Christian as a child of God? That’s not adoptionism.
@@TyrelBramwell
Yes, just as Yeshua became the divinized son of God through the resurrection, so (according as he said in Luke 20:36) those who are “worthy of the resurrection and the age to come will be children of God”
Wasn’t Yeshua worthy of the resurrection? Wasn’t he the firstborn from the dead?
Unfortunately incorrect doctrine can prevent people from seeing what is plain as day.
So Man can become God? Jesus was a mere man who became God?
@@perfectmugwagwa9371
Jesus wasn’t just a mere man, but a very special man. He became the firstborn from the dead of many brothers. YHWH has only one firstborn-the man Yeshua the messiah.
@@Mik-ha-Elbro they also believed Jesus wasn’t born through a virgin. It’s clear in Matthew chapter 1 that Jesus was born of a virgin. They had a similar scripture like Matthew without the first 2 chapters which includes the virgin birth so yeah that’s how they got their faith twisted
Adoptionism make much more sense than the pagan idea of the Trinity. The church has NOT always taught the Trinity; there isn't an early church father that teaches the Trinity; many Trinitarian based scholars, try to make these early father speak of the Trinity; however, when you look closely, you realize they only mention or taught about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as distinct individuals that formed a spiritual unity of will, but not one of them, in the first couple hundred years, taught the Trinity as it became known in the Roman Catholic Church and its later Protestant Daughters. It is soooo easy to prove the Trinity is NOT true, just by using the Bible... of course logic proves the Trinity is not true, as well. Jesus as God cannot be true, as the Trinitarians claim. If Jesus were God, then why does he say, "Not my will but Yours" in Luke 22:42? If Jesus and God are just different aspects of the same Deity, then they should have the same will. Also, Jesus says that (John 14:28) God is greater then he is. There is NO way that Jesus could be God and be tested by Satan in the wilderness... How could Satan offer Jesus any kingdom when Jesus, if he were God, already owned everything, including the Devil. Further to this, Jesus, according to Matthew and Mark, could not heal everyone... supposedly because of their unbelief. Surely, if Jesus were God, he could heal anyone, no matter what their beliefs were.... and think of the converts he could have made, if he had healed those who doubted. Jesus also didn't know when the end would come; but stated that only the Father knew (Mark 13:32)... surely, if Jesus was God and the second part of the Holy Trinity, he would have this knowledge. If Jesus is God, then why did he say that he was not good, but only the Father was good? (Mark 10:18). There are sooo many examples that prove, beyond doubt that Jesus is NOT God nor is he a combination of Man and God. Even the Gospel of John's prologue does not suggest that Jesus was God; rather, this passage is talking about the Memra or Logos or Word of God... it was this Word that entered Jesus at his Baptism, adopting Jesus to God. It is actually embarrassing to see people, on youtube, trying to prove that Jesus is God... it just makes them look so silly. Even the Two Powers idea is better than the Trinity... One could say that Jesus was the Logos (a separate entity from God) who came down as Jesus... but, it makes sooooo much more sense to say that this same Logos, entered into the body of the man, Jesus, at his baptism and caused Jesus to be adopted by God.
You’re misguided on so many of your points. Jesus Christ had both a divine will and a human will, his human will (the flesh which was weak) did not wish to die; nevertheless he did the divine will. Read Hebrews 2:9 to understand why Jesus said God is greater than Him, additionally, being the perfect human, it only was right for Jesus to give us the example of what an ideal human ought to do; that is, to submit to the Father in all times. Jesus did own everything; he said “All power in heaven and earth has been given to me” and “take courage, I have conquered the world.” That doesn’t mean that he was a traditional earthly king, as the devil tried to tempt him to be. His earthy reign will be after the second coming. You also misunderstand his healings. Jesus did not perform some type of magic against people’s will, but rather they were saved by faith “your faith has saved you.” Without faith, they could not be saved because God does not throw out our free will. While in his human nature, not yet glorified, Jesus did not know when the end would come because he “emptied himself,” taking on human limitations. That’s why he hungered, thirsted, and died. And your theory on John is disproved by 5 words: “And the Word was God.” It most certainly was NOT something separate. The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is God and was the son of God the Father before he was born of Mary. For example “In him (the Son) were created all things in heaven and on earth.” Jesus also said “I and the father are one” and “honor the son just as you honor the father” and “I am the beginning and the end.” According to Hebrews, God the Father said of Jesus “Your throne, O God, stands forever.” Even the Pharisees recognized that Jesus “made himself equal to God.” If you do not believe Jesus is the Lord God, you do not believe the Word of God. You are in my prayers.
@@Kenny-mu2xb [My, Mike Wolff, Reply to your commeent]: You realize, that nothing you said, made any sense; let's take a look:
1 [FIRST]: You said,
"You’re misguided on so many of your points. Jesus Christ had both a divine will and a human will, his human will (the flesh which was weak) did not wish to die; nevertheless he did the divine will."
[My, Mike Wolf, Reply]: You just changed what Jesus said... Jesus said NOT HIS WILL, but God's Will be done. Jesus wasn't tapping into some higher new age power of God, to make through his ordeal.... no!!! Rather, Jesus was following GOD'S will.
2 [NEXT], you said: "Read Hebrews 2:9 to understand why Jesus said God is greater than Him, additionally, being the perfect human, it only was right for Jesus to give us the example of what an ideal human ought to do; that is, to submit to the Father in all times."
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Hebrews 2:9 has nothing to do with our discussion.
3 [NEXT]: you said, "Jesus did own everything; he said 'All power in heaven and earth has been given to me” and “take courage, I have conquered the world.' That doesn’t mean that he was a traditional earthly king, as the devil tried to tempt him to be."
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Thank you... you are proving my point. Yes, I agree; Jesus did say that all power in heaven and earth had been GIVEN to him. This means, he CANNOT be God... if he were God, he would not need the power given to him, but would already have had it, since before the time... it would have been his, eternally.
4 [NEXT] you said, "His earthy reign will be after the second coming. You also misunderstand his healings. Jesus did not perform some type of magic against people’s will, but rather they were saved by faith “your faith has saved you.” Without faith, they could not be saved because God does not throw out our free will."
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: There is no free will... the Bible is clear that we can make choices, but that those choices are not freely done... You obviously are not well read in the Scriptures. The passage about Jesus not being able to do miracles, has nothing to do with faith; for we know that Jesus was doing miracles as signs, to convince people that God had sent him... That would mean, that these miracles were signs and not a response to faith. See: John 5L36: "But I have a greater witness than John - my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me."
5 [NEXT]; you said, "While in his human nature, not yet glorified, Jesus did not know when the end would come because he “emptied himself,” taking on human limitations.}
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Thanks again for proving my point. It almost seems like you agree with me. What you just said, proves that Jesus is not yet glorified... if he were God, he would always be glorified. I know, I know, you will likely run to Philippians 2, again (emptied himself)... but, even Philippians does not say, what the Pagan Trinitarians believe it says.... Rather, it simply says, that Jesus was NOT God, but was in the FORM of God or the Image of God, but did not think it right to grasp at equality with God, simply because of this... What he emptied himself of, was the power and the privileges that he had been given, and thus, was not yet glorified, as you correctly stated. None of this shows Jesus to be God. The trinity if a pagan lie.
6 [NEXT]: That’s why he hungered, thirsted, and died.
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply] Again, you proved my point with your statement.
7 [NEXT]; you said, "And your theory on John is disproved by 5 words: “And the Word was God.” It most certainly was NOT something separate.'
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]" You are greatly mistaken. You have fallen for the pagan lies of the trinity. There are two ways, we can read this passage: never of them back the trinity. (1) the Word, (Memra / Logos), is the power of God... that filled Jesus, when God adopted him, at his baptism. OR, (2) it can be seen as representing Jesus in his pre-earthly life, if one takes an Arian type view of this passage... and thus, the Jehovah's Witnesses would be correct, with their translation of; "and the word was a god." Not, that one of the most ancient churches, had this translation as well.
8 [NEXT] you said, "The New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is God and was the son of God the Father before he was born of Mary. For example “In him (the Son) were created all things in heaven and on earth.” Jesus also said “I and the father are one” and “honor the son just as you honor the father” and “I am the beginning and the end.”
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: The text that you refer to, actually proves MY point; it starts off saying that Jesus is the image of God, not God. Also, if you read this passage, correctly, keeping in mind, all the passages, you have just quoted to me, that all power had been given to Christ, then we know, that God through, Christ, allowed Jesus to set up ALL the authority and power of his church (thrones or powers or rulers or authorities -- from verse 16). This passage, you are referring to has NOTHING to do with Jesus creating the world... he did not do that; rather, God did. Jesus was given all power, to set up his church (verse 18)... as Jesus was the first born of the dead and over all. It is only your trinitarian glasses that keep you from seeing this truth.
9 [NEXT] you said, "According to Hebrews, God the Father said of Jesus “Your throne, O God, stands forever.”
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: This refers to Psalm 45 and refers to a human king as god. If we take this association, literally, you have once, again, proven my point. However, scholarly translators don't like that translation in Hebrews nor the Psalms, and suggest it should read more like; Your throne is God... like we say, God is my strength. Either way, there is no trinity here.
10 [NEXT]: Even the Pharisees recognized that Jesus “made himself equal to God.”
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply]: Sigh, all misguided trinitarians try to bring up John's gospel -- 10:34-36,-- when the pharisees charge Jesus was claiming to be God... but, Jesus refers to the OT and says, 'It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, ‘I say, you are gods!’ -- Ps 82:6 -- So, Jesus is NOT referring to himself as God, but saying; "Sure, if you think I am saying I am a god, then, it is the same as these guys, in the OT."... or even the Angels, as some like to say....
[FINALLY] you said, "If you do not believe Jesus is the Lord God, you do not believe the Word of God. You are in my prayers."
[My, Mike Wolff, Reply] I would suggest that you have greatly misunderstood the Bible... you certainly didn't present any evidence to support your claims, that Jesus is God.
@@michaelwolff1694 Do you believe in the pre-existence of Jesus of Nazareth?