The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie. She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'. The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
JJ Abrams mystery box writing. It’s one of the worst things to ever happen to western storytelling and for some reason executives absolutely loved it in the mid to late 2010s.
It ended up making money. Execs don't care if people say they like something or not. They only see the money brought in. And Star Trek 09 brought in a lot of money. 😕 Action spectacles tend to bring in a ton of money. Just look at the Transformers...
@@danij5055 this is true. Normal people are like big toddlers when it comes to movies. They just want to see bright colors and things happening and they will be happy. I don’t demand high art but a coherent story would be nice.
He did it with Alias and Lost, and it worked to an extent. Nothing wrong with creating mystery and intrigue, the problem is that the payoff at the end was always pathetic. He never had a fully laid out plan, he just made it up as he went along. That is why he is a hack.
Not since Star Trek Nemesis. I guess "Khan" in Into Darkness did want revenge on Admiral Robocop, who was responsible, but the Enterprise crew got in the way.
There is a reason why Captain Edison turns into an alien, because JJ most likely watched the season 3 episode "Extinction" from Enterprise. Where Archer, Reed and Sato are all slowly transformed into aliens due to constant exposure of the alien planet. And as we know, JJ can't leave a pre-existing idea alone.
@@michaelotoole1807Simon Pegg's whole writing career is spoofing other genres and franchises. It works with surface-level comedies, not so much when depth and characters are needed
Back when Star Trek debuted on TV I watched it on a black and white television. In 1966 it was still quite common to still have a black and white tv's . My now ex-wife surprised me with my very first color tv for my birthday. A Magnavox console with a 25 inch screen. Fairly big back then. To see Star Trek in living color for the first time was quite a treat.
To piggyback on your comments over the destruction of the Original Enterprise vs The JJ-Prise: by the time of Star Trek III, the Enterprise was 40yrs old with a LONG history of accomplishments not just under Kirk, but Robert April and Christopher Pike before him. The results of Kirk's five-year mission led to Starfleet adopting the Enterprise's Arrowhead Logo as the symbol of Starfleet. After her death Starfleet gave her name and registry number to another Constitution Class ship designating her NCC-1701-A, a practice unheard of at that time as new ships would be given a new number and be done with it. This one act started a tradition that forever immortalized the original Enterprise. Contrast that with The Kelvin Timeline. That Enterprise is not that old. she's in the middle of her FIRST five-year mission when she is unceremoniously destroyed by the HACK writers and later replace with an A. What exactly was her accomplishments again that justified a 1701-A? This is what sh💩t writing looks like.
The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie. She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'. _"Captain (although wouldn't a the 'Captain' of a Romulan mining ship be called 'Commander?) I've picked up another ship!"_ Then she whompfs in and is all using her phaser turrets like CIWS (not letting torpedoes hit you? What a novel concept!) The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
It’s Star Trek for people who hate Star Trek, it’s trash. Explosions and outbursts of emotion with little depth, it’s like a 9 year old coming home from school acting stressed out from a “long day at work” which they eat crayons, read 3 pages of a 40 page book and wrote 1 paragraph. They are merely mimicking mom and dad, they actually have no clue what a stressful-long day is, only a surface level explanation. That’s JJ Star Trek, a hack pretending to be deeper and more meaningful then it actually is, covering its plot holes and weak characters with explosions and cheap gimmicks.
Do yourself a favor and keep away from STO. They've got a lot of ships reusing the same registry with an additional letter. There's Excelsior-D (which is actually just another Excelsior-Class ship) The Constellation-D (which is actually just another Constellation-Class ship) The Intrepid-A (which is actually just another Intrepid-Class ship) etc. Also, let's not forget the USS Excalibur NCC-1664-M in Disco! It accomplished being lost with all hands by the M-5! Or the Reliant, which was immediately recommissioned with the exact same number and class, operating well into the 25th century! I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
When I was a really young kid in the early 80s and my parents asked me who my favorite Star Trek character was, I always said "the Enterprise." I didn't even realize the depth of what my naive young mind had stumbled upon.
One reason that Khan’s revenge works is the backstory is known. In Space Seed we see his conflict with Kirk that ends with his exile. Krall’s backstory isn’t known, and they have to explain it with the overused plot twist.
I never considered that connection between the crashed sphere and the Excelsior drive system. It makes so much sense and fits perfectly with the established continuity, and completely unintentional.
Not really. It was merely called trans warp, because it was significantly faster than old warp drives. After it has been significantly tested, the Excelsior's "trans warp" because just "warp".
yeah so the VOY Comment about TOS ships being "Half as Fast" makes sense, Enterprise could go Warp 5 in TNG Scale, Excelsior was about to go Warp 7 on TNG Scale, since Warp 6 TNG Scale would be about the TOS Era Warp 10 Limit they theorized. @@schwarzerritter5724
@@schwarzerritter5724yeah man its dumb as shit. Not every minute plot point needs to have a connection to another plot point made 20 years apart that "coincidentally" have a connection
@schwarzerritter5724 seeing the chart at the helmsman's console and his comment "all speeds available through trans warp drive", I took it as a faster gear shift rather than JUST a higher top speed. Maybe a bit like comparing automatic to manual transmission in cars.
I couldn't help but think of the ST Enterprise episode "Azati Prime". That final scenes of the NX-01 just being brutalized, lives lost, the whole sequence and the music - incomparably more heavy, emotional and deep than ST Beyond's Enterprise destruction. Especially given it was a culmination of a season-long battles and damage. And then that return to Earth in season 4 episode "Home" after everything the crew and the ship had gone through... Just incredible. Kelvin films cannot hold a candle to it.
The original explanation of the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive (at least according to books like "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise") was based on science collected during the encounter with the USS Defiant slipping between different universes during the TOS Episode "The Tholian Web."
Ahhh, reminiscing over the days when the Enterprise encountered Adonis, when the crew travelled back to 1930's New York, when Kirk was split in two by the transporter, when the villains were salt monsters and epically interesting characters like Trelane, or strange energy beings or... ahhhh, the good old days of Classic Star Trek!
I was shocked when Trekkies embraced this movie out of the new trilogy. Yeah it was nice having more character moments but it still felt like subpar star wars just like the other two.
Sub? Sure. But of the 3 it was the best of them and getting in the same state as star trek. (With any luck the next film might have been in the same zip code.)
2:00 Back in high school when we were excited about the then-new Star Trek movies (Kelvin timeline), I told a friend about this scene. When I got to this moment, it went like "What you had to do...what you always do..." and my friend finished it with "Blow something up." That basically sums up how Star Trek's writing has changed since back then.
Insanity has become a cheap motivation because these days it's often used as an excuse to cover the villain's illogical actions. Take the first Abrams' Trek for instance: Nero survives the destruction of Romulus and is sent back in time. Since he has foreknowledge of Romulus' fate, why not travel to Romulus and forewarn them? Well, it's because he's been driven insane. Why does Nero single Old Spock out for punishment for Romulus' destruction, when Old Spock was the only person in the galaxy who apparently wanted to help? Because he's been driven insane. Why exactly does he want to destroy every Federation planet? Because he's bloody insane. It's a free "justify-any-action-your-plot-needs-to-happen" card for hack writers.
He emerged in new timeline and his ship was demaged. They left out the whole thing about how he was then captured by Klingons and planed his escape to catch Spock. The report Uhura intercepted is his escape. So he had some years on a very bad place to fuel his emotions which are in a part Vulcan. It’s not that unexpected for him to turn how he does. But not enough characterisation is because that movie had to work on Enterprise crew as well, as they are now nothing like the one we know from OG. In all previous ST movies they had to focus only on new characters, we knew the crew and their arcs. Not saying that the movie is a masterpiece, but I rather enjoyed it. The other two…not so much.
@@Jashtvorak You can't use the excuse of "well, they left this out" - NO, it didn't happen in the film. The film was stupid. They're just covering up their big stupid plot by saying "well, they left X out" - no they didn't. How would Nero be captured anyhow? He destroyed a freaking planet, and wiped out a ship with ease, from a mining ship, that was a couple of 100 years in the future. Nero could have just saved his planet but talking to the Romulans. In fact, Romulus could have taken over the galaxy with their advanced technology from 100's of years in the future. That's what the plot should have been, stopping him. Nero shouldn't have destroyed USS Kelvin, Spock shouldn't have show up 30 years later, and as a mining ship it shouldn't have been so powerful as to take out the ENTIRE federation. The problem is just stupid lazy writers. Damon Lindelof was involved as well, the SECOND you see him involved, you know what you're going to get.
@@fuzzywzhe Oh well, so the deleted scenes from Rura Penthe with Nero doesn’t exist because you haven’t seen them 🤷🏼♂️ Or you somehow missed that his ship was crippled in the beginning by the Kelvin. Well, that’s more on you problem that this stupid movie.
I found it completely stupid that his biggest complaint was that Starfleet didn't turn out every ship in the fleet, as if there weren't anything else going on in the quadrant, to look for him in an inhospitable part of space (which happened to be in spitting distance from a space station) that shielded his location. Yet he was able to, a) not escape from there, b) not send a distress signal, but c) log into the Enterprise to get the log files undetected, as if a few decades later the security codes were never changed, in order to find they have a MacGuffin he wanted. Oh and the Enterprise, no other nonMacGuffin-carrying ship, happened to be the one to come rescue. When I watched this travesty to Roddenberry's vision the entire time I was just pissed. Oh, and the acid snot too that saves the day. Just ffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......
When I was a kid in the theater watching Star Trek III and the Enterprise blew up, I cried. I literally cried in the theater. It was horrifying. I'm tearing up as I write this now thinking of it. And the pain in Kirk's, Bones, Scotty's heart doing it. The risk of it, with no guarantee to get their friend back, I felt it. Bones explaining it to Kirk after he asks what he has done, it was beautiful.
Wow you are soft. You are from the USA aren't you? It must be good to live an easy life where a movie scene is horrifying. The only thing I envy from the americans is how easy their life is.
Many have derided Shatner's 'ham' acting over the years but my goodness, his anguish at the destruction of his beloved Enterprise and the death of David really can't be beat. (And the Enterprise dry dock sequence in TMP... The way he looks out (at essentially a blank studio wall) at the refit Enterprise is someone undeniably looking at his one true love). That's what was missing from the the Kelvin movies: genuine, honest character moments and feelings.
The tacked on insane revenge motivation reminds me of Futurama: "the big brain am winning again! I'm the greeetest! muahahaha! Nnow I am leaving earth for no rason!"
The Kelvin Enterprise is not a character. Simply being named the same as the original does not make it a character like the original, and Jar Jar invested no time in making it a character. We travelled on the original Enterprise when Capt. Pike met the Talosians, we where there when Kirk crossed the barrier, we travelled with her on her five year voyage, aboard when it helped defeat Vger, and suffered the wounds Khan wrought upon it. So when it came time for the Enterprise to be lost, we grieved, because it wasn't a ship being destroyed, it was the death of an old friend. That's impossible to do in three movies, so it should never have been done.
The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie. She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'. _"Captain (although wouldn't a the 'Captain' of a Romulan mining ship be called 'Commander?) I've picked up another ship!"_ Then she whompfs in and is all using her phaser turrets like CIWS (not letting torpedoes hit you? What a novel concept!) The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
It wasn't even built at the same time as Prime Enterprise and doesn't even have the same specs. This ship is way larger. Long story short, it's just some other ship with the same name.
Let's not forget how they wanted to make Sulu gay because of his original actor... who explicitly thought was a stupid idea anyway, yet try telling that to the activist writers.
Revenge is a dish that is best served once. I did like the fact that the crew had more screen time, they worked well together and kept their heads (not crying like Discovery babies). I also appreciated that McCoy and Spock actually talked to each other and even had some of banter you've come to expect from them in the original series. It would have been more interesting to have the Franklin get caught in a time anomaly and thrown back in time a 1000 years or so to crash on that planet. They could have encountered the primitive inhabitants and worked together for survival while waiting for Starfleet to rescue them. Time would pass and they would eventually inter breed with each other and have families, the surviving crew would create a record of what happened to them. Since they didn't know they were sent back in time they began to resent Starfleet for not coming to look for them and feeling abandoned. As even more time passed, their defendants would view the record which would continue that hate for Starfleet until the day they could avenge their ancestors. Of course Kirk and crew would eventually convince them that the Franklin had traveled back in time which is why Starfleet couldn't find them, which stopped their attack and open things up for diplomacy...but what do I know.
Another option was stealing an idea from Babylon 5(Season 1 episode 4 "Infection"), the thing that made him alien is keeping him alive but it's influencing his mind to think more alien like and less human and their appeals to his humanity and contact with Starfleet after all this time are slowly causing him to change back in bits and bursts but the automatic drone system he set up won't respond to his human brain only the alien side of him. So he can actively try to help after being convinced he was wrong AND they get to have a JJ Abrams space battle.
A thing not mentioned. The villain should also have existed in the prime universe, as he crash landed before the Kelvin incident. Meaning the original Spock would have know about him, and warned the federation.
This may be head canon, but I felt like the Transwarp drive was just a whole new warp system they had been working on with new speeds (not related to future borg transwarp) and after the tests it became standard warp on all ships and that's what gave us our new warp scale in tng and such which was definitely different than TOS warp scales. Could just be head canon on my part though
Exactly. They wouldn't abandon it just because the Excelsior crapped out. They didn't stop the V-22 just because a few people died. They didn't stop the space-missions after that one Apollo accident. And they'd probably figure out that the ship was tampered with and figure out the culperit. But because he was part of 'Saving Earth' they'd have written off any further courts martial and just capped Scotty at O6 for his career.
@@hellacoorinna9995, no, Star Fleet wouldn’t abandon the project. Instead, it would analyze what caused the failure and try to solve for it. Even if it would take years, Star Fleet would likely continue working on the drive if it saw great benefits from it in the long run.
Transwarp speeds are a thing referenced in the original series. The inclusion of the Transwarp drive on the Excelsior is one of the earliest examples of what we would call "fan service"
The scene in Star Trek III you mentioned where Kirk and McCoy are looking up into the heavens as the remnants of their beloved Enterprise burn up is just one of those many moments Star Trek was so good at. To me, this scene invoked such an emotional response with just a few words and the tone in the voices. It was understated and yet poetically powerful. The problem with modern Trek, as well as so much other Hollywood writing, is that it's soulless. With what passes for Trek today, we are dumbed down to a series of set pieces without much by way of emotional context. Classic Trek could create emotional connections with its characters ... even the old Enterprise herself. Today's writers fail to understand the rich lore they have had the privilege to work with and haven't the skill or experience to give it the soul that Trek had in the past. Star Trek is dead. Long live Star Trek.
You picked out my two favourite movies from the film. The Excelsior, larger than life, looming out from behind the Spacedock and McCoy's response to Kirk.
I’m so glad you pointed this out. When I first saw Star Trek beyond destroying the Enterprise I was like “really”. You can’t come up with something new. And spot on pointing out how poignant the original was. The ship like a cherished friend had to be sacrificed to save others. To save the crew and Spock. Modern writers truly have no love for context or emotion or logic for that matter lol.
You know, the rejuvenater changing his genetic structure makes sense at least. Everytime he gets rejuvenated it replaces the damaged cells with the equivalent of the original species, turning him into some kind of hybrid. Do something with that, it could be an interesting catalyst for a story
It's funny, as you were describing the Enterprise being destroyed and other things that happened in the movie, I realized that I remembered none of it! It was that bad a movie that my brain seems to have blotted out any memories of it!
I always thought it would have been a better story if Krall had hijacked the Enterprise to infiltrate the starbase and then Kirk would have to fight to regain the ship and command he was giving up at the start of the film. Which would convince him it was his first best destiny to be a starship captain.
As a nerdy fan of real Star Trek, Dave, your Bones impression sounded pretty damn good to me, man. 🙂 I'm not sure what it is with some of you guys across the pond, but I've noticed a lot of UK and Irish folks can do great with U.S. accent impressions without realizing it.
Your cannon idea for the transwarp drive is pretty clever and would second it to be cannon. I'm totally with you on the movie Dave. The photo of the prime cast was touching. I didn't shed a tear when this Enterprise was ripped apart and destroyed. It was an ugly design. The beauties of the TOS and the refit will always far surpass the kelvin and Discoprise.
That idea for transwarp is nice, it has a logic, but it would be better if it wasn't made canon. That's because it actually is very realistic that Starfleet simply needs so much time to research transwarp on its own. Transwarp technology is simply just another technology, that eventually anyone would start researching. Just like warp drive, steam engine or a wheel. Just consider that we have managed to create a nuclear fusion of hydrogen already a 100 years ago! And today, we still don't have a usable fusion reactor. If we are lucky, we'll have it in next few decades. So, it feels very realistic that Starfleet is working on transwarp for so long. That borg debris could have provided some tiny source of information, but more likely it was so damaged and beyond 21st. cent. tech to get anything useful on such complicated technology as a transwarp. People in 21st. cent. wouldn't even know a lot of science that is needed there, so their researchers might not even recognize what some pieces of that debris were for.
In the 80’s I was a huge fane of the Excelsior (and hated the changes they made to the model for ST:VI and especially ST:VII) - so being raised on Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise, the ‘87 edition includes the origin of transwarp: the TOS episode The Tholian Web. Spock’s analysis of the interphase phenomenon in conjunction with travel (how the Enterprise escapes) leads to the study of artificially generating interphasic-boosted warp - so that the actual warp speeds don’t change but the apparent effect is a massive increase in distance over time. When transwarp became associated with the Borg, the gist of the 80’s literary canon still makes sense.
I learned recently that the Enterprise model used for the ship's death in ST3 not only was not the refit model used in the movies, it was not even a quick copy. The model used for the Enterprise's death was actually the unfinished model of the Enterprise created for STAR TREK Phase 2; it was redressed to more closely match the movie's refit Enterprise.
The destruction of the JJ prize didn't bother me one bit i was glad to see that monstrosity go... but when the original refit was destroyed i shed a tear😢
9:09 With regards to ST: Beyond as a "return to Star Treks roots". I believe some fans feel this way because this was the first movie, in the Kelvin timeline, where the setting wasn't Earth, but in deep space. I consider this to be a low standard. I do enjoy ST: Beyond, but it is a standard, popcorn action movie.
The main problem with J.J.Abrams is that He never believed or even considered the Ship the Enterprise as a main character as part of the Crew thats why he didn't mind majorly damaging and destroying her in each of His films, And also we have to remember that He wasn't truly a big fan of Startrek in any way shape or form in the first place and tried to make it more like the Star Wars movies!.
Great Dr. McCoy impression, Dave! Like yourself, I didn't care for this film. In fact, I've only watched parts of it. When you were talking about the villain's plans, I immediately thought about Star Trek Into Darkness. Khan's motivations were practically the same in that film! Smh. Thanks for the analysis and review.
In defence of Beyond and the Enterprise destruction, I feel the massive difference is: Main timeline: it is a crew member, it makes the ultimate sacrifice for its friends, its also a hard choice Kirk has to make. It has a lot of emotional weight because of the fact this ship grew with the crew, through adventures and refits etc also. The symbolism I saw in Beyond is best seen with 3 scenes: Kirk's birthday when he talks about his dad's death, his consideration of taking a "safer" post as an admiral and the moment he watches his ship crash from his escape pod. This isn't the same Kirk as the original series. This Kirk never knew his dad, never gained the inspiration from him like Shatner's Kirk and so his 3 movie arc is all about finding himself as THE captain. Sure, it's not done with the same gravitas in parts as with the original run. But I think the whole point of this is Kirk finally having his Kobayashi Maru moment, hence the gratuitous nature of the destruction. Everything he tries gets thwarted and he's forced to get past survival instinct, unlike his dad who heard his son being born but made the ultimate sacrifice. I think that's why when I see his reflection in the pod as the Enterprise crashes, I'm like "now he realises" and he has to then go back to basics.
There are hints at the crew starting to gel in the ways that the different series crews did when they where at their best. In my mind what Beyond proves is that in order to do a movie franchise with a particular trek property they first need several years on a tv show to build the kind of chemistry needed to properly carry a trek film.
In ST 3 the destruction of Enterprise when I saw it as a teen brought me to tears. Now I see in the story it was the only way forward the only way to win given the situation. Ultimately any ship is expendable if it means saving the crew, even the crew is expendable if it means saving a world, a people, etc. But it's much harder when the ship itself is also a beloved character.
Have to agree with you about the picture of the TOS cast, that was about the only thing I liked. Also the Franklin as the 1st warp 4 starship seemed to contradict Enterprise, it should have been something that came after the NX class.
I’m 100 percent sure I saw this when it came out or soon after at home, but I remembered nothing of what you said.. so that shows how much of an impact it had on me. For TWOK I remember every scene and can recite a lot of dialog .
Just dawned on me.... The classic show starship Enterprise and the Tardis from Doctor Who share their transference from A Ship The Characters Used For Travel into A Beloved Character because we spent years getting to love them. In Doctor Who, the Tardis even became 'a character' in canon because of this. (William Hartnell's Doctor didn't treat his ship as sentient like the later Doctor's did.)
@@haisaid Oh yes - one of my favourite cinematic tracks - just so damn rousing. And just the pure emotion of the crew risking everything for a fallen comrade
I agree re the story but for me, it was its tone. It captured the tone of the original series and the relationships between the characters. I think that’s why it resonates with some fans.
As a long Star Trek Fan and writer, i talk about these kinds of things all the time with my Family and none trek friends. I really like STB but what they did to the Enterprise never settled right with me. If the ship is a character, its death in the original movies was framed as a noble sacrifice but in new "death" was a savage "Grape". Used as a narrative device for Kirks overall character growth. Captain Balthazar Edison was an ok character, seems like most of his flaws came from abandonment issues trying to survive and it drove them all insane. I felt sorry for them and wished they could've been saved as a thematic way to show the Federations moral victory and reason for existing, over his drive to destroy it.
I totally predicted them referring to The Beastie Boys as "Classical music". It was a cheap joke, and I didn't even laugh. I just rolled my eyes and said "of course they did"
Once again Dave you're 100% right. I totally agree with your comparisons between Star Trek III and Star Trek Beyond's Enterprise destruction scenes. The stealing of the Enterprise is also one of my all time favourite scenes and the music that goes with it... awesome. I find the new Trek films watchable at best but they pale in comparison to the original series classic Trek films.
The death of the true, original Starship Enterprise was a heartbreaking moment, but serves the story and let's is know how far Kirk is willing to go to save Spock. The destruction of the Apple Store JJ Enterprise is very....meh. But what it really is, is torture porn CGI, and the gratuitous destruction of a starship written and created by people who actively hate Star Trek.
All your points about the film are valid. The reason why I like this film better than the other two Jar Jar films, is that it give the ensemble cast more to do and actually takes time to develop them. Granted we don't get much of that. It also respects the canon that came before it without doing it for cheap member-berries.
I can agree with that. All three films could have been much stronger if it had let the cast interact more. Of the three this did it best but all three were weak in that regard.
Starfleet ALWAYS had knowledge of Advanced Tech but could not use it properly at certain times like with the Great Transwarp/Excelsior Experiment... This has nothing to do with "Regeneration" as was correctly mentioned
Glad to see someone else to mention it. This is how science works. Some ideas need decades or centuries to be finally developed. For example for the last 50 years we’re still trying to find the right way how to make an aerospike engine work. We've built prototypes, flown them, but we’re not using it, because it still doesn’t work right. Just like transwarp in ST.
@@Lukas-Trnka THIS! It is also the same with Fusion Reactors. We know since decades how they could be Made in theory and already built Prototypen, but none of these Work now how they should... But once we Figur it Out it will Work.
Totally agree that the destruction of the Enterprise in this movie had no emotional weight at all. However, I actually thought Star Trek Beyond was the best of the Kelvin Treks. I felt like I was watching an episode of TOS. Kirk behaved intelligently for once instead of being a one-note hot-head character. Spock and Bones actually had some nice bonding moments. Idris Elba was intimidating as the villain. Sofia Boutella was a really fun supporting actress, something I don't think you get very often in Trek movies. Overall, I thought the story was fun and action-packed in a good way. Slow, thoughtful, diplomatic Trek is REALLY hard to do in movie format. TOS was also fun and shlocky at times. It wasn't always a philosophical drama. What we got with this movie was fun TOS, and I was more than happy with that, especially considering that the first two movies were... sub-par to say the least.
I never got past why the Federation would build their newest and biggest starbase next to a nebula they hadn't explored, lol. Who knows what would have been hiding in there?
I saw this movie with my late wife when it first came out and we both had a similar reaction. Generic Hollywood action movie set in the Kelvin Star Trek universe. It didn't really feel like a Star Trek movie or TV show, so I really never understood why some people were drawing that conclusion. And, of course, I remember all of the brouhaha about Sulu being gay, supposedly as a tribute to George Takei, but George said he didn't want them to do that because he didn't want them changing an established character just to make a point.
George Takei wanted Sulu to remain true to the source material not changed for him. Granted they did it very gently in the movie but it adds nothing to the story. This movie wasn't written or directed by JJ Abrams so it's not as good in terms of story or directing. The action scenes were too choppy.
The link between the Borg remains being gathered in the 22nd century (i.e. quite possible that Starflet would have done that) and the Transwarp Drive experiment in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock - quite a good explanation 👍🏾👍🏾 For the Balthasar Edison / Krall thing - I can see how a commander may lose his mind a bit when you watch you crew all die around you, as you're all marooned on a distant planet. Maybe that's what turned his head to vengeance against Starfleet as he took on the alien Krall form...
A very honest critique -yet, I have more problems with elements of "Into Darkness" use of KAHN! -That Beyond is more rewatchable to me. I appreciate the links to Enterprise, even in alternative universe (as other modern streaming shows had not done that acknowledgement, yet.) The Cast of this crew have said in part, that as they have been waiting years to do a 4th film, after many cancels, since they started out as young, if they get a 4th, they will be a more mature cast (like TOS into movies). I would like to see that maturity. The Direction, design, creative ideas, concepts, cast. I all appreciate. That they filmed in Canada, and U.A.E., due to funding, also made this Trek more visually different. This sought for originality, and for the 50th of Trek some calls to the past. "Beyond" is higher on my list of Trek films than "into Darkness" with it's misuse of Kahn (while parts of that film have good merit, others are 'bonkers')
Aside from your mention of the picture of the original cast, I could think of a few scenes and lines of dialogue (such as the ones between McCoy and Spock) which felt more genuinely Star Trek. Those are the only reason I even give this movie the time of day.
Star Trek 3 was my entry point to this franchise as a kid. I had no clue what was going on, nor did I care. I remember seeing the Enterprise come on screen after seeing the credits, and thinking that’s cool. It’s probably not the best, but as my entry point and, I firmly believe, a solid flick, I’ll defend it to my dying breath.
"A big hollywood action movie placed in the Star Trek universe" is a great summation of this movie. I had a sliver of hope after the first JJ movie but it went downhill really fast with Into Darkness and then this one. I hope they let this die, which I assume is the case since there's been no talk of any future films. We'll always have the OG movies (2, 3 and 6 being my favs) and I did like a couple of the TNG movies as well (First contact and Generations). Wrath of Khan will always be in my top movies list-great plot and sub-plot that all tie together, great character arcs, great action without being overdone with all the CGI we have now and a bittersweet ending.
Bad Robot treats ships and planets as disposable as fast food packaging.
They pretty much do the same to everything they touch.
Bad Reboot treats and planets as disposable as fast food packaging.
FTFY
Basically JJ's shallow materialistic method of storytelling.
No wonder he hasn't written an original work in over a decade and a half.
The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie.
She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'.
The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
People, too. Abrams never saw an airlock or a hull breach he could resist tossing a few people out of.
I think Critical Drinker said "bad robot is the hired assassin of treasured IPs".
JJ Abrams mystery box writing.
It’s one of the worst things to ever happen to western storytelling and for some reason executives absolutely loved it in the mid to late 2010s.
It ended up making money. Execs don't care if people say they like something or not. They only see the money brought in. And Star Trek 09 brought in a lot of money. 😕
Action spectacles tend to bring in a ton of money. Just look at the Transformers...
@@danij5055 this is true. Normal people are like big toddlers when it comes to movies. They just want to see bright colors and things happening and they will be happy.
I don’t demand high art but a coherent story would be nice.
It’s still here, in all of the bad streaming shows. It has only spread among current day writers.
He did it with Alias and Lost, and it worked to an extent. Nothing wrong with creating mystery and intrigue, the problem is that the payoff at the end was always pathetic. He never had a fully laid out plan, he just made it up as he went along. That is why he is a hack.
It existed before Abrams …
Can't they think of any Star Trek movie plots besides "Madman want's revenge on people who bear no responsibility for their situation"?
Apparently not😂
Not since Star Trek Nemesis.
I guess "Khan" in Into Darkness did want revenge on Admiral Robocop, who was responsible, but the Enterprise crew got in the way.
These writers are just "writing what they know", steeped in west coast leftism, full of anger, angst and blame, built on hate, not on logic.
I have to agree with you. That picture of the original crew was the best moment of the whole film to me.
Well yeah, it was the end of the terrible film.
There is a reason why Captain Edison turns into an alien, because JJ most likely watched the season 3 episode "Extinction" from Enterprise. Where Archer, Reed and Sato are all slowly transformed into aliens due to constant exposure of the alien planet. And as we know, JJ can't leave a pre-existing idea alone.
i think simon pegg wrote the script.
@@michaelotoole1807yeah he did, jar jar was off messing up the star wars franchise 🙄 😅
@@michaelotoole1807Simon Pegg's whole writing career is spoofing other genres and franchises. It works with surface-level comedies, not so much when depth and characters are needed
@@michaelotoole1807 Simon Pegg's ego helped ruining those movies.
@@Zodroo_Tint yep
Back when Star Trek debuted on TV I watched it on a black and white television. In 1966 it was still quite common to still have a black and white tv's . My now ex-wife surprised me with my very first color tv for my birthday. A Magnavox console with a 25 inch screen. Fairly big back then. To see Star Trek in living color for the first time was quite a treat.
Good times!
To piggyback on your comments over the destruction of the Original Enterprise vs The JJ-Prise: by the time of Star Trek III, the Enterprise was 40yrs old with a LONG history of accomplishments not just under Kirk, but Robert April and Christopher Pike before him. The results of Kirk's five-year mission led to Starfleet adopting the Enterprise's Arrowhead Logo as the symbol of Starfleet. After her death Starfleet gave her name and registry number to another Constitution Class ship designating her NCC-1701-A, a practice unheard of at that time as new ships would be given a new number and be done with it. This one act started a tradition that forever immortalized the original Enterprise.
Contrast that with The Kelvin Timeline. That Enterprise is not that old. she's in the middle of her FIRST five-year mission when she is unceremoniously destroyed by the HACK writers and later replace with an A. What exactly was her accomplishments again that justified a 1701-A? This is what sh💩t writing looks like.
The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie.
She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'.
_"Captain (although wouldn't a the 'Captain' of a Romulan mining ship be called 'Commander?) I've picked up another ship!"_
Then she whompfs in and is all using her phaser turrets like CIWS (not letting torpedoes hit you? What a novel concept!)
The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
Basically they wanted what all modern writers seem to want. Unearned gravitas.
It’s Star Trek for people who hate Star Trek, it’s trash. Explosions and outbursts of emotion with little depth, it’s like a 9 year old coming home from school acting stressed out from a “long day at work” which they eat crayons, read 3 pages of a 40 page book and wrote 1 paragraph. They are merely mimicking mom and dad, they actually have no clue what a stressful-long day is, only a surface level explanation. That’s JJ Star Trek, a hack pretending to be deeper and more meaningful then it actually is, covering its plot holes and weak characters with explosions and cheap gimmicks.
@@clintmatthews3500 Not to mention the Idea of World Building appears to be foreign concept.
Do yourself a favor and keep away from STO. They've got a lot of ships reusing the same registry with an additional letter.
There's Excelsior-D (which is actually just another Excelsior-Class ship)
The Constellation-D (which is actually just another Constellation-Class ship)
The Intrepid-A (which is actually just another Intrepid-Class ship)
etc.
Also, let's not forget the USS Excalibur NCC-1664-M in Disco! It accomplished being lost with all hands by the M-5!
Or the Reliant, which was immediately recommissioned with the exact same number and class, operating well into the 25th century!
I could go on, but I think you get the idea.
When I was a really young kid in the early 80s and my parents asked me who my favorite Star Trek character was, I always said "the Enterprise." I didn't even realize the depth of what my naive young mind had stumbled upon.
The Bones impression was actually decent.
"IT'S TURNING THE FREAKIN' TRIBBLES GAY, JIM"
@@mriverlands9584 Too right. Dave's impressions are all really spot-on, especially Picard.
To be fair, Bones WAS sounding a bit like Alex Jones before the Classic Trek movies were done! 😆
@@mriverlands9584Maybe that episode will happen in Strange New Worlds? Oh wait, the showrunners wouldn't be that creative!
@@charlesws7825They'd probably have BonesJones continually tried at Star Fleet tribunals for galactic insubordination 😂
One reason that Khan’s revenge works is the backstory is known. In Space Seed we see his conflict with Kirk that ends with his exile. Krall’s backstory isn’t known, and they have to explain it with the overused plot twist.
I never considered that connection between the crashed sphere and the Excelsior drive system.
It makes so much sense and fits perfectly with the established continuity, and completely unintentional.
Not really. It was merely called trans warp, because it was significantly faster than old warp drives. After it has been significantly tested, the Excelsior's "trans warp" because just "warp".
yeah so the VOY Comment about TOS ships being "Half as Fast" makes sense, Enterprise could go Warp 5 in TNG Scale, Excelsior was about to go Warp 7 on TNG Scale, since Warp 6 TNG Scale would be about the TOS Era Warp 10 Limit they theorized.
@@schwarzerritter5724
@@schwarzerritter5724yeah man its dumb as shit. Not every minute plot point needs to have a connection to another plot point made 20 years apart that "coincidentally" have a connection
@@schwarzerritter5724 We also know that in TNG, the warp scale was entirely reworked and that was tied into that Transwarp project
@schwarzerritter5724 seeing the chart at the helmsman's console and his comment "all speeds available through trans warp drive", I took it as a faster gear shift rather than JUST a higher top speed. Maybe a bit like comparing automatic to manual transmission in cars.
I couldn't help but think of the ST Enterprise episode "Azati Prime". That final scenes of the NX-01 just being brutalized, lives lost, the whole sequence and the music - incomparably more heavy, emotional and deep than ST Beyond's Enterprise destruction. Especially given it was a culmination of a season-long battles and damage. And then that return to Earth in season 4 episode "Home" after everything the crew and the ship had gone through... Just incredible. Kelvin films cannot hold a candle to it.
Yesterday I ate a hamburger and I transformed into a giant hamburger. That is the logic of Star trek Beyond Bullshit.
The original explanation of the Excelsior's Transwarp Drive (at least according to books like "Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise") was based on science collected during the encounter with the USS Defiant slipping between different universes during the TOS Episode "The Tholian Web."
Somehow people forgot time travel doesn't exist in real life.
It's always great to find someone who shows appreciation for how great Search for Spock was.
I agree. Watched it with my kids recently, it was a lot better than I remember
I watched Star Trek in a wacky order, so my brain never picked up about the whole transwarp thing.
Your theory is now my head cannon.
And it just shows Dave has more creativity than most in Hollywood.
Warping beyond biological genders 🤣
Your Star Trek Enterprise theory would have made a great episode.
"Canon"
A "cannon" is an old style French machine that made frilly girls underwear.
@@projektkobra2247no, no. He's got something there...
Head-cannon is when you blast a human head out of a cannon.
And that's in my head canon.
Ahhh, reminiscing over the days when the Enterprise encountered Adonis, when the crew travelled back to 1930's New York, when Kirk was split in two by the transporter, when the villains were salt monsters and epically interesting characters like Trelane, or strange energy beings or... ahhhh, the good old days of Classic Star Trek!
"Those were the days, my friend, I thought they'd never end"
I was shocked when Trekkies embraced this movie out of the new trilogy. Yeah it was nice having more character moments but it still felt like subpar star wars just like the other two.
Totally - all of Bad Reboots Trek became sub par Star Wars. That is until Disney turned Star Wars into sub par Star Wars.
Lmao that’s what Star Trek always was
@@calebwood1663 are you smoking crack? For one thing the original star trek aired 1966-1969. When did star wars debut?
@@calebwood1663 Then you totally don't get it then - different beast all together.
Sub? Sure. But of the 3 it was the best of them and getting in the same state as star trek. (With any luck the next film might have been in the same zip code.)
2:00 Back in high school when we were excited about the then-new Star Trek movies (Kelvin timeline), I told a friend about this scene.
When I got to this moment, it went like
"What you had to do...what you always do..." and my friend finished it with "Blow something up."
That basically sums up how Star Trek's writing has changed since back then.
Insanity has become a cheap motivation because these days it's often used as an excuse to cover the villain's illogical actions. Take the first Abrams' Trek for instance: Nero survives the destruction of Romulus and is sent back in time. Since he has foreknowledge of Romulus' fate, why not travel to Romulus and forewarn them? Well, it's because he's been driven insane. Why does Nero single Old Spock out for punishment for Romulus' destruction, when Old Spock was the only person in the galaxy who apparently wanted to help? Because he's been driven insane. Why exactly does he want to destroy every Federation planet? Because he's bloody insane. It's a free "justify-any-action-your-plot-needs-to-happen" card for hack writers.
He emerged in new timeline and his ship was demaged. They left out the whole thing about how he was then captured by Klingons and planed his escape to catch Spock. The report Uhura intercepted is his escape. So he had some years on a very bad place to fuel his emotions which are in a part Vulcan. It’s not that unexpected for him to turn how he does.
But not enough characterisation is because that movie had to work on Enterprise crew as well, as they are now nothing like the one we know from OG. In all previous ST movies they had to focus only on new characters, we knew the crew and their arcs.
Not saying that the movie is a masterpiece, but I rather enjoyed it. The other two…not so much.
@@Jashtvorak You can't use the excuse of "well, they left this out" - NO, it didn't happen in the film. The film was stupid. They're just covering up their big stupid plot by saying "well, they left X out" - no they didn't. How would Nero be captured anyhow? He destroyed a freaking planet, and wiped out a ship with ease, from a mining ship, that was a couple of 100 years in the future.
Nero could have just saved his planet but talking to the Romulans. In fact, Romulus could have taken over the galaxy with their advanced technology from 100's of years in the future. That's what the plot should have been, stopping him. Nero shouldn't have destroyed USS Kelvin, Spock shouldn't have show up 30 years later, and as a mining ship it shouldn't have been so powerful as to take out the ENTIRE federation. The problem is just stupid lazy writers. Damon Lindelof was involved as well, the SECOND you see him involved, you know what you're going to get.
@@fuzzywzhe Oh well, so the deleted scenes from Rura Penthe with Nero doesn’t exist because you haven’t seen them 🤷🏼♂️
Or you somehow missed that his ship was crippled in the beginning by the Kelvin.
Well, that’s more on you problem that this stupid movie.
@@Jashtvorak It doesn't exist in the final product of the film. So it doesn't matter.
The FILM sucked, it didn't have to, but it did.
@@fuzzywzhe that’s your opinion and you can have it.
I found it completely stupid that his biggest complaint was that Starfleet didn't turn out every ship in the fleet, as if there weren't anything else going on in the quadrant, to look for him in an inhospitable part of space (which happened to be in spitting distance from a space station) that shielded his location. Yet he was able to, a) not escape from there, b) not send a distress signal, but c) log into the Enterprise to get the log files undetected, as if a few decades later the security codes were never changed, in order to find they have a MacGuffin he wanted. Oh and the Enterprise, no other nonMacGuffin-carrying ship, happened to be the one to come rescue. When I watched this travesty to Roddenberry's vision the entire time I was just pissed. Oh, and the acid snot too that saves the day. Just ffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.......
he spent so many years on the planet when the Franklin was right there waiting? he never found it?
When I was a kid in the theater watching Star Trek III and the Enterprise blew up, I cried. I literally cried in the theater. It was horrifying. I'm tearing up as I write this now thinking of it. And the pain in Kirk's, Bones, Scotty's heart doing it. The risk of it, with no guarantee to get their friend back, I felt it. Bones explaining it to Kirk after he asks what he has done, it was beautiful.
Yes. That and the murder of David...the audience was so quiet in the theater.
That's how I felt in Generations when they crashed Enterprise-D.... Just a very somber ride home watching both Kirk and the D die
Same. It was gut wrenching. After that it became old hat. When they crashed the other enterprises, I felt nothing.
Wow you are soft. You are from the USA aren't you? It must be good to live an easy life where a movie scene is horrifying. The only thing I envy from the americans is how easy their life is.
Many have derided Shatner's 'ham' acting over the years but my goodness, his anguish at the destruction of his beloved Enterprise and the death of David really can't be beat. (And the Enterprise dry dock sequence in TMP... The way he looks out (at essentially a blank studio wall) at the refit Enterprise is someone undeniably looking at his one true love). That's what was missing from the the Kelvin movies: genuine, honest character moments and feelings.
Wow. Beyond was so memorable to me that I don't even remember the Enterprise being destroyed.
There wasn't even a moment where it was valiant. It was just smashed to bits....
The tacked on insane revenge motivation reminds me of Futurama:
"the big brain am winning again! I'm the greeetest! muahahaha! Nnow I am leaving earth for no rason!"
The Kelvin Enterprise is not a character. Simply being named the same as the original does not make it a character like the original, and Jar Jar invested no time in making it a character. We travelled on the original Enterprise when Capt. Pike met the Talosians, we where there when Kirk crossed the barrier, we travelled with her on her five year voyage, aboard when it helped defeat Vger, and suffered the wounds Khan wrought upon it. So when it came time for the Enterprise to be lost, we grieved, because it wasn't a ship being destroyed, it was the death of an old friend. That's impossible to do in three movies, so it should never have been done.
The Big-E gets only one decent moment in the first Lensflareverse movie.
She gets whomped at first, then comes in all 'Big Damn Gunship'.
_"Captain (although wouldn't a the 'Captain' of a Romulan mining ship be called 'Commander?) I've picked up another ship!"_
Then she whompfs in and is all using her phaser turrets like CIWS (not letting torpedoes hit you? What a novel concept!)
The successive movies proceed to liberally kick the crap out of her without giving her much of a redeeming point.
It wasn't even built at the same time as Prime Enterprise and doesn't even have the same specs. This ship is way larger.
Long story short, it's just some other ship with the same name.
Let's not forget how they wanted to make Sulu gay because of his original actor... who explicitly thought was a stupid idea anyway, yet try telling that to the activist writers.
The ship is a person !!!
I remember you making that point & thinking about it, it's true.
The Enterprise is subtly the main character.
'Risk is our business. That's why we're aboard her!' - James T. Kirk
Revenge is a dish that is best served once. I did like the fact that the crew had more screen time, they worked well together and kept their heads (not crying like Discovery babies). I also appreciated that McCoy and Spock actually talked to each other and even had some of banter you've come to expect from them in the original series. It would have been more interesting to have the Franklin get caught in a time anomaly and thrown back in time a 1000 years or so to crash on that planet. They could have encountered the primitive inhabitants and worked together for survival while waiting for Starfleet to rescue them. Time would pass and they would eventually inter breed with each other and have families, the surviving crew would create a record of what happened to them. Since they didn't know they were sent back in time they began to resent Starfleet for not coming to look for them and feeling abandoned. As even more time passed, their defendants would view the record which would continue that hate for Starfleet until the day they could avenge their ancestors. Of course Kirk and crew would eventually convince them that the Franklin had traveled back in time which is why Starfleet couldn't find them, which stopped their attack and open things up for diplomacy...but what do I know.
This would have been a much more entertaining film with a much more believable motivation
Another option was stealing an idea from Babylon 5(Season 1 episode 4 "Infection"), the thing that made him alien is keeping him alive but it's influencing his mind to think more alien like and less human and their appeals to his humanity and contact with Starfleet after all this time are slowly causing him to change back in bits and bursts but the automatic drone system he set up won't respond to his human brain only the alien side of him. So he can actively try to help after being convinced he was wrong AND they get to have a JJ Abrams space battle.
A thing not mentioned. The villain should also have existed in the prime universe, as he crash landed before the Kelvin incident. Meaning the original Spock would have know about him, and warned the federation.
This may be head canon, but I felt like the Transwarp drive was just a whole new warp system they had been working on with new speeds (not related to future borg transwarp) and after the tests it became standard warp on all ships and that's what gave us our new warp scale in tng and such which was definitely different than TOS warp scales. Could just be head canon on my part though
That is my assumption as well
That's what I was thinking, and it's a lot simpler than coming up with a Wookiepedia-style Kessel Run explanation.
Exactly. They wouldn't abandon it just because the Excelsior crapped out.
They didn't stop the V-22 just because a few people died. They didn't stop the space-missions after that one Apollo accident.
And they'd probably figure out that the ship was tampered with and figure out the culperit. But because he was part of 'Saving Earth' they'd have written off any further courts martial and just capped Scotty at O6 for his career.
@@hellacoorinna9995, no, Star Fleet wouldn’t abandon the project. Instead, it would analyze what caused the failure and try to solve for it. Even if it would take years, Star Fleet would likely continue working on the drive if it saw great benefits from it in the long run.
Transwarp speeds are a thing referenced in the original series. The inclusion of the Transwarp drive on the Excelsior is one of the earliest examples of what we would call "fan service"
The scene in Star Trek III you mentioned where Kirk and McCoy are looking up into the heavens as the remnants of their beloved Enterprise burn up is just one of those many moments Star Trek was so good at. To me, this scene invoked such an emotional response with just a few words and the tone in the voices. It was understated and yet poetically powerful.
The problem with modern Trek, as well as so much other Hollywood writing, is that it's soulless.
With what passes for Trek today, we are dumbed down to a series of set pieces without much by way of emotional context. Classic Trek could create emotional connections with its characters ... even the old Enterprise herself.
Today's writers fail to understand the rich lore they have had the privilege to work with and haven't the skill or experience to give it the soul that Trek had in the past.
Star Trek is dead. Long live Star Trek.
You picked out my two favourite movies from the film. The Excelsior, larger than life, looming out from behind the Spacedock and McCoy's response to Kirk.
"What you had to. What you *always* do. Turn death into a fighting chance to live."
I'm hoping one day we'll see that kind of writing in Trek again!
I’m so glad you pointed this out. When I first saw Star Trek beyond destroying the Enterprise I was like “really”. You can’t come up with something new. And spot on pointing out how poignant the original was. The ship like a cherished friend had to be sacrificed to save others. To save the crew and Spock. Modern writers truly have no love for context or emotion or logic for that matter lol.
The beginning story he made up was anything better than Bad Robot did in its run
The JJ ships cant even keep the same shape & proportions from movie to movie even without the excuse of repairs & refits.
More reason why the return of the Enterprise D was so wonderful in Picard Season 3. They showed the Enterprise the love and respect she deserves
Picard ruined Star Trek beyond repair.
That was a pretty good impression mate
"The frogs are going to turn gay, Jim."
You know, the rejuvenater changing his genetic structure makes sense at least. Everytime he gets rejuvenated it replaces the damaged cells with the equivalent of the original species, turning him into some kind of hybrid.
Do something with that, it could be an interesting catalyst for a story
I absolutely agree this movie is screen diharea.
It's funny, as you were describing the Enterprise being destroyed and other things that happened in the movie, I realized that I remembered none of it!
It was that bad a movie that my brain seems to have blotted out any memories of it!
I certainly agree with your assessment of ST: Beyond, but in Insurrection that twist actually worked.
I always thought it would have been a better story if Krall had hijacked the Enterprise to infiltrate the starbase and then Kirk would have to fight to regain the ship and command he was giving up at the start of the film. Which would convince him it was his first best destiny to be a starship captain.
As a nerdy fan of real Star Trek, Dave, your Bones impression sounded pretty damn good to me, man. 🙂
I'm not sure what it is with some of you guys across the pond, but I've noticed a lot of UK and Irish folks can do great with U.S. accent impressions without realizing it.
Don't forget that J.J. Abrams gave us The Rise of Skywalker. 'Nuff said.
Your cannon idea for the transwarp drive is pretty clever and would second it to be cannon. I'm totally with you on the movie Dave. The photo of the prime cast was touching. I didn't shed a tear when this Enterprise was ripped apart and destroyed. It was an ugly design. The beauties of the TOS and the refit will always far surpass the kelvin and Discoprise.
That idea for transwarp is nice, it has a logic, but it would be better if it wasn't made canon. That's because it actually is very realistic that Starfleet simply needs so much time to research transwarp on its own. Transwarp technology is simply just another technology, that eventually anyone would start researching. Just like warp drive, steam engine or a wheel.
Just consider that we have managed to create a nuclear fusion of hydrogen already a 100 years ago! And today, we still don't have a usable fusion reactor. If we are lucky, we'll have it in next few decades. So, it feels very realistic that Starfleet is working on transwarp for so long.
That borg debris could have provided some tiny source of information, but more likely it was so damaged and beyond 21st. cent. tech to get anything useful on such complicated technology as a transwarp. People in 21st. cent. wouldn't even know a lot of science that is needed there, so their researchers might not even recognize what some pieces of that debris were for.
In the 80’s I was a huge fane of the Excelsior (and hated the changes they made to the model for ST:VI and especially ST:VII) - so being raised on Mr. Scott’s Guide to the Enterprise, the ‘87 edition includes the origin of transwarp: the TOS episode The Tholian Web. Spock’s analysis of the interphase phenomenon in conjunction with travel (how the Enterprise escapes) leads to the study of artificially generating interphasic-boosted warp - so that the actual warp speeds don’t change but the apparent effect is a massive increase in distance over time. When transwarp became associated with the Borg, the gist of the 80’s literary canon still makes sense.
Your theory sounds logical. Saw beyond once and never saw it again. I think someone called it "Fast & Furious in Space" due to the director.
I learned recently that the Enterprise model used for the ship's death in ST3 not only was not the refit model used in the movies, it was not even a quick copy. The model used for the Enterprise's death was actually the unfinished model of the Enterprise created for STAR TREK Phase 2; it was redressed to more closely match the movie's refit Enterprise.
The destruction of the JJ prize didn't bother me one bit i was glad to see that monstrosity go... but when the original refit was destroyed i shed a tear😢
As it is today, a real twist in the story is if there is no actual twist...
Long live the Star Wars Holiday Special
9:09 With regards to ST: Beyond as a "return to Star Treks roots".
I believe some fans feel this way because this was the first movie, in the Kelvin timeline, where the setting wasn't Earth, but in deep space.
I consider this to be a low standard.
I do enjoy ST: Beyond, but it is a standard, popcorn action movie.
"Star Trek: Beyond Reason"
That's the name of the new Star Trek season, is it? I can't say it grabs me.
The main problem with J.J.Abrams is that He never believed or even considered the Ship the Enterprise as a main character as part of the Crew thats why he didn't mind majorly damaging and destroying her in each of His films, And also we have to remember that He wasn't truly a big fan of Startrek in any way shape or form in the first place and tried to make it more like the Star Wars movies!.
I still liked this one way more than into darkness!
Revenge and insanity are the only motivations for the bad guys in ST movies.
Great Dr. McCoy impression, Dave! Like yourself, I didn't care for this film. In fact, I've only watched parts of it. When you were talking about the villain's plans, I immediately thought about Star Trek Into Darkness. Khan's motivations were practically the same in that film! Smh. Thanks for the analysis and review.
In defence of Beyond and the Enterprise destruction, I feel the massive difference is:
Main timeline: it is a crew member, it makes the ultimate sacrifice for its friends, its also a hard choice Kirk has to make. It has a lot of emotional weight because of the fact this ship grew with the crew, through adventures and refits etc also.
The symbolism I saw in Beyond is best seen with 3 scenes: Kirk's birthday when he talks about his dad's death, his consideration of taking a "safer" post as an admiral and the moment he watches his ship crash from his escape pod. This isn't the same Kirk as the original series. This Kirk never knew his dad, never gained the inspiration from him like Shatner's Kirk and so his 3 movie arc is all about finding himself as THE captain. Sure, it's not done with the same gravitas in parts as with the original run. But I think the whole point of this is Kirk finally having his Kobayashi Maru moment, hence the gratuitous nature of the destruction. Everything he tries gets thwarted and he's forced to get past survival instinct, unlike his dad who heard his son being born but made the ultimate sacrifice. I think that's why when I see his reflection in the pod as the Enterprise crashes, I'm like "now he realises" and he has to then go back to basics.
There are hints at the crew starting to gel in the ways that the different series crews did when they where at their best. In my mind what Beyond proves is that in order to do a movie franchise with a particular trek property they first need several years on a tv show to build the kind of chemistry needed to properly carry a trek film.
In ST 3 the destruction of Enterprise when I saw it as a teen brought me to tears. Now I see in the story it was the only way forward the only way to win given the situation. Ultimately any ship is expendable if it means saving the crew, even the crew is expendable if it means saving a world, a people, etc. But it's much harder when the ship itself is also a beloved character.
Have to agree with you about the picture of the TOS cast, that was about the only thing I liked. Also the Franklin as the 1st warp 4 starship seemed to contradict Enterprise, it should have been something that came after the NX class.
I’m 100 percent sure I saw this when it came out or soon after at home, but I remembered nothing of what you said.. so that shows how much of an impact it had on me. For TWOK I remember every scene and can recite a lot of dialog .
Destroyed a. Swarm by blasting rock music into the soundless vacuum of space 😂
Just dawned on me.... The classic show starship Enterprise and the Tardis from Doctor Who share their transference from A Ship The Characters Used For Travel into A Beloved Character because we spent years getting to love them. In Doctor Who, the Tardis even became 'a character' in canon because of this. (William Hartnell's Doctor didn't treat his ship as sentient like the later Doctor's did.)
Stealing the Enterprise also my most favourite scene from classic trek
The soundtrack of that scene alone is legendary
@@haisaid Oh yes - one of my favourite cinematic tracks - just so damn rousing. And just the pure emotion of the crew risking everything for a fallen comrade
I agree re the story but for me, it was its tone. It captured the tone of the original series and the relationships between the characters. I think that’s why it resonates with some fans.
Only watchable film of these was the first one.
Alex Jones as Leonard McCoy. Dear god. _"The Klingons are turnin' the frogs gay, Jim!"_
It's not Star Trek Beyond, it's just beyond Star Trek.
As a long Star Trek Fan and writer, i talk about these kinds of things all the time with my Family and none trek friends. I really like STB but what they did to the Enterprise never settled right with me. If the ship is a character, its death in the original movies was framed as a noble sacrifice but in new "death" was a savage "Grape". Used as a narrative device for Kirks overall character growth. Captain Balthazar Edison was an ok character, seems like most of his flaws came from abandonment issues trying to survive and it drove them all insane. I felt sorry for them and wished they could've been saved as a thematic way to show the Federations moral victory and reason for existing, over his drive to destroy it.
I totally predicted them referring to The Beastie Boys as "Classical music". It was a cheap joke, and I didn't even laugh. I just rolled my eyes and said "of course they did"
Yeah, I'm a total metal head since the 1980s but I can still distinguish between the quality of Mozart and the 'Beastie Boys'. 🤣
Even today, I am still in shock that they used music to destroy the enemy, just like Mars Attacks.
Once again Dave you're 100% right. I totally agree with your comparisons between Star Trek III and Star Trek Beyond's Enterprise destruction scenes. The stealing of the Enterprise is also one of my all time favourite scenes and the music that goes with it... awesome. I find the new Trek films watchable at best but they pale in comparison to the original series classic Trek films.
The death of the true, original Starship Enterprise was a heartbreaking moment, but serves the story and let's is know how far Kirk is willing to go to save Spock.
The destruction of the Apple Store JJ Enterprise is very....meh. But what it really is, is torture porn CGI, and the gratuitous destruction of a starship written and created by people who actively hate Star Trek.
All your points about the film are valid.
The reason why I like this film better than the other two Jar Jar films, is that it give the ensemble cast more to do and actually takes time to develop them. Granted we don't get much of that. It also respects the canon that came before it without doing it for cheap member-berries.
I can agree with that. All three films could have been much stronger if it had let the cast interact more. Of the three this did it best but all three were weak in that regard.
i agree with this as well.
Starfleet ALWAYS had knowledge of Advanced Tech but could not use it properly at certain times like with the Great Transwarp/Excelsior Experiment... This has nothing to do with "Regeneration" as was correctly mentioned
Glad to see someone else to mention it. This is how science works. Some ideas need decades or centuries to be finally developed.
For example for the last 50 years we’re still trying to find the right way how to make an aerospike engine work. We've built prototypes, flown them, but we’re not using it, because it still doesn’t work right. Just like transwarp in ST.
@@Lukas-Trnka THIS!
It is also the same with Fusion Reactors.
We know since decades how they could be Made in theory and already built Prototypen, but none of these Work now how they should... But once we Figur it Out it will Work.
This film served the purpose of ending the Kelvin time line films😀
The music attack at the end was ripped off from Macross
Do You Remember Love? 🤪
I really enjoyed this movie seriously it's in my top 5 of Trek films with TWOK, Undiscovered Country, 1st Contact, and Voyage Home coming before it.
“Star Trek Beyond the Willing Suspension of Disbelief”
Totally agree that the destruction of the Enterprise in this movie had no emotional weight at all. However, I actually thought Star Trek Beyond was the best of the Kelvin Treks. I felt like I was watching an episode of TOS. Kirk behaved intelligently for once instead of being a one-note hot-head character. Spock and Bones actually had some nice bonding moments. Idris Elba was intimidating as the villain. Sofia Boutella was a really fun supporting actress, something I don't think you get very often in Trek movies. Overall, I thought the story was fun and action-packed in a good way. Slow, thoughtful, diplomatic Trek is REALLY hard to do in movie format. TOS was also fun and shlocky at times. It wasn't always a philosophical drama. What we got with this movie was fun TOS, and I was more than happy with that, especially considering that the first two movies were... sub-par to say the least.
Urban and Quinto are carrying quite a lot of the film in that regard. They had the most connective feeling to The original show for me.
VERY cool Dave!! As all your reviews are!
Agree with this, especially the enterprise comments.
ALL the Jar Jar Abrams movies were a waste of time.
I know I've watched it because I bought it. Can't remember anything about it.
I gave all my Bad Trek to my mother. She seems to enjoy it.
I never got past why the Federation would build their newest and biggest starbase next to a nebula they hadn't explored, lol. Who knows what would have been hiding in there?
And given that space exploration is pretty much the primary mission statement for Star Fleet.
I'd like to know how many Enterprise crew members died under the command of JJ's version of Kirk.
It must be well into four figures.
Well he did apologize. 🤣
I saw this movie with my late wife when it first came out and we both had a similar reaction. Generic Hollywood action movie set in the Kelvin Star Trek universe. It didn't really feel like a Star Trek movie or TV show, so I really never understood why some people were drawing that conclusion. And, of course, I remember all of the brouhaha about Sulu being gay, supposedly as a tribute to George Takei, but George said he didn't want them to do that because he didn't want them changing an established character just to make a point.
George Takei wanted Sulu to remain true to the source material not changed for him. Granted they did it very gently in the movie but it adds nothing to the story. This movie wasn't written or directed by JJ Abrams so it's not as good in terms of story or directing. The action scenes were too choppy.
The link between the Borg remains being gathered in the 22nd century (i.e. quite possible that Starflet would have done that) and the Transwarp Drive experiment in Star Trek III: The Search for Spock - quite a good explanation 👍🏾👍🏾 For the Balthasar Edison / Krall thing - I can see how a commander may lose his mind a bit when you watch you crew all die around you, as you're all marooned on a distant planet. Maybe that's what turned his head to vengeance against Starfleet as he took on the alien Krall form...
A very honest critique -yet, I have more problems with elements of "Into Darkness" use of KAHN! -That Beyond is more rewatchable to me. I appreciate the links to Enterprise, even in alternative universe (as other modern streaming shows had not done that acknowledgement, yet.) The Cast of this crew have said in part, that as they have been waiting years to do a 4th film, after many cancels, since they started out as young, if they get a 4th, they will be a more mature cast (like TOS into movies). I would like to see that maturity. The Direction, design, creative ideas, concepts, cast. I all appreciate. That they filmed in Canada, and U.A.E., due to funding, also made this Trek more visually different. This sought for originality, and for the 50th of Trek some calls to the past. "Beyond" is higher on my list of Trek films than "into Darkness" with it's misuse of Kahn (while parts of that film have good merit, others are 'bonkers')
"Goddammit Jim, I'm sick of them putting chemicals in the water..."
"You'll never get away with this, Nero -- I mean Khan -- I mean -- Krall?"
I had a lot of hope for this version...
Aside from your mention of the picture of the original cast, I could think of a few scenes and lines of dialogue (such as the ones between McCoy and Spock) which felt more genuinely Star Trek. Those are the only reason I even give this movie the time of day.
Star Trek 3 was my entry point to this franchise as a kid. I had no clue what was going on, nor did I care. I remember seeing the Enterprise come on screen after seeing the credits, and thinking that’s cool.
It’s probably not the best, but as my entry point and, I firmly believe, a solid flick, I’ll defend it to my dying breath.
I forgot about that photo scene. It was nicely done.
"A big hollywood action movie placed in the Star Trek universe" is a great summation of this movie. I had a sliver of hope after the first JJ movie but it went downhill really fast with Into Darkness and then this one. I hope they let this die, which I assume is the case since there's been no talk of any future films. We'll always have the OG movies (2, 3 and 6 being my favs) and I did like a couple of the TNG movies as well (First contact and Generations). Wrath of Khan will always be in my top movies list-great plot and sub-plot that all tie together, great character arcs, great action without being overdone with all the CGI we have now and a bittersweet ending.