ALERT! These Cars Will Snitch On You - The Carmudgeon Show Jason Cammisa & Derek Tam-Scott - Ep 143
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Your Honda, Acura, Hyundai or Kia is selling driving data to insurance companies as an excuse to hurt enthusiasts. And that is disgusting.
UPDATE: General Motors has cancelled its OnStar Smart Driver System, which means you can safely keep driving your Blackwing like it was meant to be driven.
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It has recently come to light that three major auto manufacturers have been selling consumer driving data to LexisNexis so that it can be sold to your insurance company and used against you to raise your rates or cancel your insurance.
Not only is this a gross violation of your expectation of privacy, but it's also a flawed reporting system.
This is especially difficult for Jason, since he so enthusiastically recommends many Honda and Hyundai products - and now has to backtrack. The Civic Type R is off his shopping list together with all Honda, Acura, Hyundai, and Kia products, until their manufacturers can ensure drivers that their data is not being shared.
*NOTE: This episode was recorded before Jason drove the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N.*
Of course, the Carmudgeons don't stop complaining just there, but then go onto a discussion of "corporate conscience" and ethics in engineering including Volkswagen's Dieselgate, the Challenger space ship, the Ford Pinto, and of course Boeing.
And United Airlines' Bingo.
![The Porsche Carrera GT is fine. Until it’s not. - Spotlight feat. Jason Cammisa - Ep. 7 [UHD 4K]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uf3SDCFRDe4/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Porsche Carrera GT is fine. Until it’s not. — Spotlight feat. Jason Cammisa — Ep. 7 [UHD 4K]](/img/tr.png)
GM anonymizing your data means nothing if it can be trivially de-anonymized by insurers - there aren’t many people driving back and forth between your house, your kid’s school, and your workplace, for instance.
The solution is actual consumer data protections, real transparency, and restrictions on what data is collected and how it is used.
What GM did now, isn't comparing to the ignition cylinder issues back in the mid 2000's with the Cobalt. However, I gave in by owning some.Camaro's - then all that has occurred it's explained now.
I won't he buying a new GM ever, even if they stopped reporting.
Technically all the data brokers must have a clause (and they do) in which you can make them stop the reporting. Either way, data without context is BS, so there is plenty of argument here. It's unethical
you mean, like GDPR?
Also who's phone is connected to the infortainment?
You don't even need to ever push that little blue onstar button either!!!
Part of the greatness of this show is standing in complete opposition to so many robotic UA-cam marketing reads of interior features and brochure literature as opposed to real fucking facts on cars. Thanks from San Bruno
don't need to use the f bomb, makes you sound like an idiot.
On the Challenger engineering ethics thing, it always reminds me of the quote from John Glenn: "As I hurtled through space, one thought kept crossing my mind - every part of this rocket was supplied by the lowest bidder"
The primary cause of the Challenger disaster wasn’t really an engineering problem; NASA was under enormous pressure to fly the shuttles as frequently as possible because of unrealistic promises made at the beginning of the shuttle program, all with a shrinking budget. The result was “go fever” and ignored warnings.
that shouldn't matter AT ALL assuming the engineers had done their job correctly and presented their requirements to the supplier, and the supplier was able to follow them.
Hi, my name is Andrew and I have a 2023 Civic Type R for sale. Never tracked, abused, seen rain, and definitely does not snitch on you.
Post a photos of ripped out gps/cell unit :)
@@drivingpsyche Instructions unclear and now I have a helicopter following me. (send help)
The Type R is not involved.
@@e36s54literally is lol
Pretty sure it was tracked, by Honda.
Thank you for this episode. People need to know about this fuckery. Also, a Hyundai salesman wanted to debate their $15,000 markup on the Ioniq 5 N (into glass-roofed Lucid Air Touring territory) and this episode was the single and final nail in that coffin.
Yeah with Hyundai reporting data (without context proper acknowledgement) I won't be buying one.
they only stop when it hits their P&L.
JASON: Guy from Canada here. I learned to drive in snow, in a open parking lot covered in snow, and did hard braking, hard steering, hard accelerating, to LEARN how the vehicle handles in the snow. To learn stopping distance and at what point traction gets lost, etc. So by doing this in a empty parking lot before driving on the streets with snow, I was being a safe driver, I was getting understanding and getting prepared to drive in snow with other traffic. So in doing this and being safer, but in these new times my data getting sold..... would mean my insurance would go up? That is Fing insane! Stealing a persons info and then using it out of context.... this needs to made illegal for corporations to do. Guilty until proven innocent?
Me too! Community college parking lot in winter and ski hill lot in spring to practice mud.
Yep, same here! Learned how to control the car in a slide in the snow in an empty parking lot, and trained my muscle memory to NOT mash the brakes but rather turn into the slide and hit the accelerator (fwd). This made me a MUCH better driver in the snow. But I’m sure it would have been reported to my insurance company as aggressive driving or some BS. So glad I sold my 23 Elantra N for an older car without all this.
You have now been reported to the Mounties. Thank you for your self-incrimination.
They now made this illegal to do in Ontario technically. So now you can get screwed by your insurance and get a fine for doing it
I’ve watched nearly every episode and never felt compelled to comment before today. This is an outstanding episode and superb journalism. This is a worldwide problem with personal data being used against us and who we trust with our privacy. I buy a fast car to drive fast! I did a launch control maximum attack acceleration the day I took delivery with less than 40 miles on the odometer. I was convinced that the car was going to snitch on me at the first service and my prepared answer was “it’s my car and it was fun”.
Well done guys.
I completely agree with you, but the thing is that fast cars is a bit of a public secret: everyone knows what you do with a fast car, but this sort of driving can easily be considered reckless driving, even if the road is empty. Ask police officers, driving instructors, driving examiners. What we do with sporty cars is kind of a gray area simply because no one's really watching. But once you have Big Brother measuring every aspect of your driving, then it's not legally taking anything away -- it's just driving the way you're "supposed to".
It's like driving speeds on the freeway: everyone's going above the speed limit, and the law says that a speed limit is a target, not a guideline. Technically, everyone is breaking the law.
So that's to say that this whole Big Brother thing is revealing a VERY IMPORTANT THING: current laws and regulations are too restrictive, but no one was bothered by that because no one was being monitored 24/7. And it's not only about driving.
FYI car engines have a break-in period that you seem to have ignored for your new car. Hope it doesn't impact the reliability too badly
@@ITNoeticsome people think the breakin period is nonsense for modern engines and modern fluids (myself included).
@@ITNoeticthe car was perfectly fine. I knew it wasn’t recommended but it felt fun and it was out of my system for a bit. That was the first time I thought my car will rat me out to the dealer. The thought of telemetry being sent to my insurance company? Dynamic changes to a car in use aren’t an underwriting input. My clean license is a better reflection of good attentiveness,avoiding accidents, high performance used when it’s fun and not a death-with and finally IT IS MY CAR!
@@MiscNameengines go through some sort of break-in at the factory and if the buyer is beholden to complete the break-in process, know that factory break-in is gently idling the engine.
That being said, modern engines with roller lifters require very little break-in. Dealers know someone unfamiliar with a larger powerbands tend to crash shortly. A "break-in" is really time for the owner to undergo Operator Familiarization, preventing damage to themselves, brand image and most importantly sales.
I'm a Canadian tech and privacy lawyer. Jason mentions that the driving behavior data collection and sale would probably not be legal in Europe under the GDPR. It would not be legal under Canadian privacy laws unless car owners gave explicit informed consent - ie not buried in a manual or policy. In fact, the data broker industry as it exists in the US violates Canadian Privacy laws. My only car magazine claim to fame is a letter to the editor that was published in Feb 2018 Automobile Magazine where I questioned what auto manufacturers would do with our data. I said "I'm not eager to share my driving data with an insurer so an algorithm designed by a bureaucrat who buys cars based solely on colour will penalize me if I have an occasional harmless heavy foot on either pedal." And I asked the question about car companies "Will they avoid purpose creep and resist the temptation to use, sell, or share personal information for new things or to governments or insurers who want it for specious reasons?" I guess we now know the answer to that.
My favorite part is the fact that they're obligated by law to inform customers of all of this, yet people had to do a whole ass investigation just to figure out it was happening at all.
*Anything* a corporation can do that will result in profit, that is not *overtly* illegal, they *will* do.
so will you.
@@misternordberg3675I don’t lie to people in business. Mega corpos do.
@@misternordberg3675 I am not under obligation to make the highest possible return for the shareholder. I can decide that human kindness is worth something, unlike a Board of Directors. You presume too much.
This is not exactly true. If there is competition, then they are beholden to the consumer.
Capitalism 🎉🎉🎉
Anonymization is a myth. Cross reference with one other data set and you can line it up with no issue.
"The Hyundai Drive Score program has been discontinued" ... LMAO
Just checking in as the sole owner of the “base” Civic Hatchback Sport Manual
I also own a new, manual sport hatch.
They really are great cars. That chassis with that engine is one of the best slow car fast experiences one can get in a new car.
@@StephenDavidson5359 hey there, fellow sole owner!
You all can protest by selling the Hondas and never buying one again, or suing Honda/Acura
@@MaverickPhantom this episode made me disable any internet connectivity in my car and any car-phone connection on my car-related apps.
@casperLikesRamen that's great and too late. They already sold all the data from the moment DMV registered you.
It's unethical! That's how betrayal feels.
I can tell you that I have never sold a telematics policy - EVER. I told various carriers they could suck one because I thought their risk modeling is bad. I tell customers that if they drive at rush hour, late at night, speed, they can assume they will not benefit and I let them decide for themselves. Not one has opted for it. Additionally, telematics ignore people rolling stops, running reds, not signaling, following too closely, TEXTING, all kinds of things that much more likely to result in an accident. Speeding is weighted WAY too much and their hard braking/turning thresholds are WAY too low. The irony is that people who regularly exceed those thresholds are better able to deal with them when SHTF.
Any collection and selling of your data (driving, financial, credit, etc) without your permission should be very illegal. But we all know big profitable corporations make a lot of money doing precisely that. And since our government works for the corporations and not the people, we know that will always stay legal.
The defeatist attitude is what ruined America
That's the trick. You "agree" to it... when the dealer gets the car and hits accept on the initial start when then get it. LG is in a bit of trouble for having a arbitration clause that is only seen on the box or the owners manual. You don't see the box most of the time and you only see the owner manual after you've bought it
Not only should data collection be illegal. Opt in should be the norm and something you physically have to sign/check a box. None of this BS where it’s hidden or obscured. Also need to be plain language. This shit has gone way too far and unfortunately the average person doesn’t care because they feel like there’s nothing they can do about it.
"Since our government works for the corporations..."
Funny how your words blame the government and not the corporations!
It was the corporations who co-opted government regulation. It is pro-business efforts to undermine everything to do with regulations.
It's like when a plane crashes, the usual ignorant reply is to blame the FAA. As if they have the budget and resources to even do their jobs in the first place. Undermine an agency and then blame them for some corrupt, scheming company who causes a crash. Wow.
Amazing how twisted American thinking has been become thanks to pro-business propaganda.
Voting for anti-regulation platforms has consequences.
That On Star called the Sherrif 21 times while filming is just fkg OUTRAGEOUS! I'm insane with anger & I drive an older car....
Derek's ability to clearly articulate his thoughts with precision is a pleasure to hear.
Derek's inability to listen to a complete comment by Jason is so fucking annoying caused me to leave before five minutes into this potentially very interesting discussion.
Jason is a compelling narrator. Derek comes off as an arrogant dick
The cold-air space shuttle is not as clear-cut as it is commonly discussed. The seal did blow out but the design issue was more complex. There was flex in the connection which allowed the gas to blow out. Picture connecting a hose where there is play around the rubber washer, it might not leak but chances are good it will. There was a correlation to cold weather in some data, some people were saying there was a risk and they should cancel. But the cause was a bad design. The solution was not to only do warm weather launches, it was to redesign to eliminate the play in the connection.
However, the Columbia disaster is a real screwup. The foam issue was a known problem. They did testing on the damage foam would create and knew it could be catastrophic. They also knew the heat shield tiles were coming back damaged and it was just out of pure luck earlier reentries were successful. I learned about the RISK in engineering school months before the crash, terrible failure of leadership.
NASA was warned by several engineers that the Solid Rocket Booster (SRB) segment seals were not rated at the uncharacteristically cold temps at the cape that morning. They had to go way up the chain for someone to give the thumbs-up to to launch. The flight had been delayed previously, so there was a lot of pressure to go. Bad pressure can lead to bad decisions which can lead to very bad things happening. A friend of mine did QC at Morton Thiokol, and he said it was not uncommon for the inner seal to be breached on recovered SRB's.
You are 100% correct about Columbia. FAFO.
fake.
A shuttle astronaut on JRE said it wasn't years of nothing happening it was years of being lucky.
@@dougrobinson8602 Absolutely correct in the pressure to proceed leading to bad decisions, and this is where I disagree with Jason (although I may not know all the facts). Piech set unrealistic (some would say high) goals and was overly demanding of underlings. His lack of communication skills did not help him as a boss. Engineers working under these conditions will either quit and move on or slightly bend the rules making ethically questionable decisions to survive. Once rules are bent it becomes easier to follow more ethically flawed paths. Eventually any action needed to satisfy the boss is acceptable.
I did not have Derek "justifying" the use Hookers and Blow by Lamborghini on my bingo card for the day. Im dying. 😂
In California it’s illegal to use driver tracking to determine insurance premiums. I wonder if these OEMs have broken the law in CA
Likely. Find out
I remember having an app for insurance a while back that you could activate to track your driving and reduce payments. It keept thinking that you did a full stop when you drove into a tunnel, and then accelerating hard when you came back out of it. just thought I'd share because I remember finding this funny at first, but then seeing how it cost money it got considerably less funny. also depending on wich time of day you where driving you would automatically get some points deducted, wich pissed me off to no end. Used it maybe for 3 months. Good thing my car is (kinda) old!
Completely agree!!! Selling driving style data without "real" consent is violating driver's privacy.
My mechanic said to never put anything the ODB port , only scan tools. Never put an insurance or 3rd party device. Only device trusted is military approved Banks devices!!
Reminds me of how Verstappen got declined for purchasing a Mercedes because based on insurance he was under the age required to drive a sports car 😂
Also thanks for bringing this up! I’m totally pissed about this and someone should publish and maintain a list with cars and brands snitching on you.
Now all you need is a privacy company to sponsor this episode.
Hmmm… can someone build a portable, standalone hotspot with vpn and cell signal blocker? So the car would connect through controlled device in order to access Internet?
Living in Miami I wholeheartedly agree when it comes to driving on I95.
I was getting insurance for my miata that i just bought and the lady was REALLY trying to sell me on their "safe drivers program". You basically stick a Bluetooth box in your car and it transmits how you drive to state farm. She kept going on and on about how "even the worst driver saves at least one percent". The issue here is, if these insurance companies are buying data like this behind customers backs why the hell would I ever trust you on something like this.
I don't want to there to even be a possibility that state farm just saw the 3rd clutch dump that I did yesterday and that time I was doing doughnuts in the kroger parking lot.
Sadly Honda records everything!
My dissatisfaction with my co-owned 2022 Honda Civic sport rises from our warranty encounter. When my son brought it in for engine lights flashing, they promptly voided the engine warranty, citing a single instance where the computer logged 8900 RPMs for .3 of a second. Obviously 1 missed shift in 40,000 miles is possible! This decision appears unjust, especially considering that manual transmission vehicles can easily experience such spikes. When I asked why the engine allowed it to go so high the dealer stated internally the redline is 9200 RPM and the 6800 RPM displayed in the cabin is fake. This makes no sense. I will never recommend Honda again.
Shifting focus to the exterior, the paint quality is disappointing; it began chipping almost immediately. Honda's response was dismissive, stating that it's normal. It feels as though Honda didn't invest much effort into making the Civic paint last.
So not only speed, hard accelerations, but even any missed shifts and for how long.
Every manufacturer manages massive amounts of data. They only have to tap into the vehicle dynamics algorithms and data logs and “Voila!” Gotcha!
As for the engine rom is concerned, a misshift revs the engine much higher than the fuel cutoff would. It’s just physics.
Yea, my 1998 Fiero Formula, missed shifts were not recordes. 1994 Wrangler, same thing. 2001 Goldwing nada, 2014 Honda Valkyrie, nope. In today's world just for that reason I would not buy a manual car.
@@JeepAndThingsI just wouldn’t buy a car newer than 2017 or so. Model by model based on how much tracking the car has, and how many parts are digitally serialized to the car.
@@piedpiper1172 Yea, had no idea Honda did all that. I've always had Honda Motorcycles. My current is a beast. 2014 Valkyrie 1800cc, flat 6, 0-60 3.41 seconds. But, after this experience, never buying a Honda again. Extend 120,000 7 year warranty. Fu*k Honda.
Also, DoorDash started doing this to drivers last year around Oct. 2023. It is so unlawful, and I didn't sign up as an independent contractor for this. I 95 is horrible traffic and stop and go all the time. South Florida is the worst in the Nation for 4 years now!!
And the boys are baaaaaack! Great show. Super applicable discussion that I’m not hearing anywhere else. This is why you are the best. Thank you
I have one of those "safe driving" apps from my insurance company, and I've noticed a couple very distressing things. For starters, their definition of "harsh braking" is absurd. I used to train safety drivers for a living, and because of that experience I tend to drive like a grandpa (and I'm also a grandpa). If it's anything other than coasting to a stop, you get dinged. Then they changed the app so that it no longer identified the place on the map where the alleged "harsh braking" happened. As I explained when I complained, how am I supposed to improve my driving when you refuse to tell me what I did wrong? When I was training drivers, we'd go over specific incidents so that they could improve.
The goal isn’t safety it’s moving the goal posts to guarantee perpetual record profits for the beta males running the insurance racket
The purpose of the app isn't to improve your driving, it's to give them an excuse to raise your rates. Don't be fooled by the "reduction" up front, it results in higher rates over the long term.
I identify as a “Watcher”, not a “reader” or “listener” , enjoy the editing and pop ups. The Boeing bit, yup agree with both, avoiding 737 & 787, but if meant to be, so help me God. Enjoyed the bit on Pinto and Challenger, watched it live in grade school, recall it was so confusing at the time when it blew up in the air… ethics needs to be taught on all levels, not just in engineering practices especially when human life can be impacted. More reasons to keep old low tech cars usually for me 2013 or older is the camp I fall in to avoid being “watched”
I did use the obd2 plugin from the insurance company a while back to get lower insurance after getting some speeding tickets. It made me drive even more dangerously because I was way slower to pick up speed on the highway, creating massive gaps in traffic(larger then trucks) so I didn't have to slam on the breaks, and constantly running yellows since I didn't want to slam on the brakes at a red light. Took it off as soon as the 1 year evaluation period ended then tuned my Mk4 tdi the next day
The Civic Type R has a setting where you can disable uploading of any data online. When you turn it off, it complains with a little red notification each startup but that seems to stop any upload of your data.
How you do thatv
The data is still collected. They may not share it but how you drive is absolutely looked at if you develop, say, an engine issue.
Every time your tire spins while trying to accelerate on snow or ice, the traction control will step in and your insurance will go up. Same with abs intervention while stopping. Lane keep assist warnings. Blind spot warnings. Knowing all of this good luck enjoying your drive to work. Every trip is going to feel like a driving exam.
To be honest, I’m surprised it took this long and that cell phone companies have not worked with insurance companies in the same way that these car companies are doing. I’m sure the time will come though. Every time a company has had the opportunity to monetize data that was previously thought to be private, they have hidden or lied about it.
I lived in New York City in the 1990s, during the dawn of automatic toll collection (EZPass, FastTrak, etc). People noticed large radio antenna towers popping up around the New Jersey Turnpike. I believe Car & Driver or another magazine contacted state officials to ask what they were for, the officials said it was to track / collect data from these in-car toll devices. When the magazine asked whether the state would promise that the devices would not be used to issue automated speeding tickets, the state officials flat out replied “no.“
Did they end up issuing speeding tickets based on this afterall?
@@andycalifornia426no, but the data has been used in divorce cases.
I hope Subaru doesn't know how many times I stalled my 86 this weekend learning manual haha
😂
Congrats on the 86 and el Manuel.
@johnhannibalsmith5386 that's the only one to get, unless you live in a city with very thick traffic
no worries; I'll soon become second nature...shifting not stalling.
Subaru definitely sells your driving data. You have to go online and opt out.
This seriously has me contemplating selling my 2018 BRZ in order to get an older car... It's a shame since it drives so darn well!
I put in a request to Subaru to not have my data shared, but I'm not sure how much I trust that...
Wouldn’t it be easier to determine where the LTE/wireless module is and block/remove that? Even if it’s built into something, you could but some copper mesh off Amazon, wrap it that, and create a faraday cage around the module. Might be easier than selling the car.
U doubt gen1 cars have that feature already. Gen2 brz for sure and there are walkthroughs how to disconnect the module (which resides along the headunit).
Google is 100% keeping your driving data. We tested it. Get into a car.. put your destination in... look at that time then switch accounts to a slower driver. It added 10 min. Unless something happened on that road in the 2 min it took to switch..... As for onstar... remove the fuse and it stops tracking
And I just bought a Subaru ... It gives me more motivation to get the Duster up and running.
Don’t download any of the Subaru phone apps, FYI.
Plymouth Duster? My first car was a used 71 Duster I bought for $900 in 79. Just a slant6. My dad later bought mom a 74 with the 318. I traded mine in because i was facing expensive repairs. I don't remember what happened to mom's. Right now I'm sad that they probably got scrapped 😭
The pop ups would make some great carmudgen swag
Hey Jason and Derek, thank you for what you're doing, this is just a relief from the standard "checklist bloggers". What I want to mention is that VW has the same "feature" called DriveView calculation driver's behaviors, luckily with ability to opt out.
Having worked in the tech industry the last 24 years, this isn't even the worse that will happen with cars.
Would you mind sharing?
Will continue driving my FL5 like an FL5.
that'll show em'
Oddly enough, I participated in one of the OBD II plug-in programs. My rates went up for hard braking because I would stop at amber lights. My wife’s score was lower than mine because she would run amber and red lights. No offense to Hagerty, but insurance is a legal scam enforced on good American citizens. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been hit by drivers without insurance.
You guys are awesome! Most bad drivers are just not paying attention but they get rewarded for drivings slow. If I've driven for 20 years without accidents there's your proof I'm a good driver!
They’re selling that same data to your health insurer as well. And they continue to lobby to reinstate ‘conditions’.
I knew a bus driver who was driving a bus that had a narc box. He knew it was active when he didn't quite make the yellow coming off an off ramp - so instead of tripping it with hard braking, he just honked a bunch of times and ran the red...
Speaking of the car gathering your driving data, if you have gas buddy app on your phone and use your phone to drive in your car, the gas buddy app tracks your driving behavior as well, along with your route you have driven. So not only is your car tracking but your phone is as well.
Thank goodness both my cars are too old for these tracking shenanigans. Jake from State Farm does not need to know about my very cautious and careful enthusiastic driving ;). Cheers Carmudgeons on another outstanding episode.
There's also failure modes that can also help reduce this and make it more likely to fail in a safe way.
My 2018 BMW no longer has any mobile/remote connectivity options either because it was based on 3G tech. Most car manufacturers were using 3G tech until the signals were shut down. I also lost live traffic info from the built-in nav (but I use Waze), as well as news and weather info within the infotainment.
keep in mind it includes location data...... of every trip you take
I was watching another UA-camr today discussing news that FORD applied for a patent for a device that will allow your FORD to narc on other vehicles speeding. The question is, will it narc on your driving? We all know the answer - it's already happening.
In that vid the movie "Minority Report" came up.. This clicked in my head when you mentioned that none of this predicts accidents.. Good point. All these violations of our privacy are claimed to be for our protection. No, it's for corporations to make money off us.
My SF insurance agent has tried to get me to sign up for that safe driver monitoring. No.
Tesla does this as an option if you want it, they actually are their own insurer's in a lot of states, the difference is they're completely transparent about the collection of your driving data and will only use it for themselves for self driving training (data is actually anonymous like maps) or if you sign up to insure through them, not sell it to any 3rd parties
If your car has 'OnStar Smart Driver System' or another brand with more or less the same thing. What's to prevent you from pulling the fuse on the 'Driving Data System' there must be a fuse or a module one can pull to shut it off & continue to enjoy the car. Had the plug in module from the insurance company, but they asked for it back. Drive so little, it would shut down between trips & have to be re-set on every start. They couldn't get any meaningful data off of it.
The discussion at 12 minutes is spot on. The data has no context. Like you had to brake/swerve/accelerate to AVOID a collision and you get penalized for it.
Wirh Hyundai at least it was during bluelink set up that it showed up and need acknowlegement on or off. I opted out so we weren't receiving a "driver score". It looks like Hyundai has completely removed it now as it has a warning stating its no longer being used. I honestly doubt there were any car companies who weren't doing this which is completely disheartening. Also I highly recommend people get their lexisnexus at least once a year to dispute it
I’m only halfway through the podcast (and enjoying it so far), so you may touch on this later. But the main issue with this seems to be regulation. You could theoretically choose to buy a car from another brand that doesn’t sell your data, but shouldn’t some accountability also be directed towards the insurance companies who used data that was collected through questionable means?
In most states you can’t choose to not have insurance, so if they use data that was collected with limited/dubious consent, ideally wouldn’t they also hold some of the blame?
The main issue seems to be that regulators in the US either don’t know what they’re doing, or are spineless when it comes to ownership of data. Definitely an interesting conversation, and one that seems to be weaseling its way into every aspect of our lives unfortunately.
Lobbying politicians is ridiculously cheap. Seriously, they will sell out all of America for a couple grand. If you’re Alphabet or Meta or another wealthy data broker, it’s the highest ROI on money you can spend.
Data selling is unregulated for most part. It’s up to buyer to interpret that data on their own. So insurance companies are not buying list of risky clients, but rather a database of driving records of people who might be their clients (or future clients) and it’s up to ins comp to match those files with their clients. How well the data is interpreted determines how biased or fair the rates are.
Google the term "Regulatory Capture". There's a reason even 9 or 10 figure fines are just considered a cost of doing business.
When you connect your phone by WiFi they can get your info
My experience says that insurance companies will raise your rates whether they have a reason or not.
My wife sees brake lights from 50 yards away and screams brake ! That is where all my harsh braking comes from.
Same. Women 🙄
This sucks. I’m about to pick up an Acura Integra Type S, and I’ll definitely be driving it like the sports car that it is. Hopefully someone will find a defeat mechanism.
The only defeat mechanism I can think of is buy a CPO F87 m2 comp instead 🤣
Just don’t sign up for AcuraConnect or Hondalink. With both my Type S and my Type R the dealer informed me I had a free trial but it was up to me to download the app and sign up and connect it to the car, which I didn’t do
I have two Acuras. Thank god I didn’t sign up for the drivers score. That being said, I hope it’s still not sending data. I just sent in for my Lexus nexus data. Everyone should do the same and flood them with requests.
Thanks. Good advice from the above two.
It doesn’t have a TCU, so no worries it can’t track you.
I completely agree with what you are saying how they read score and its flaws. I'm dealing with this in my GPS tracker in my work vehicle. My old vehicle was automatic with cruise. My new truck is manual and doesn't have cruise. I am one of the best drivers in the company and since I started driving manual my hard breaking has tanked because it thinks I'm hard breaking when I down shift, hard acceleration took a dip just because the way you drive a manual. So now I'm barely passing my drivers score
If you’re downshifting PROPERLY (heel and toeing) there is NO apparent spikes in deceleration. None at all.
I wondered how long it would take the car journalists to pick up on this story. The NYT story was published 11 March. It seems to have gone under the radar for over a month. Having said that, the byline of the NYT journalist (Kashmir Hill) says her beat is tech and privacy, so I get it - probably not on an automotive journalist’s daily reading list. It took a week for the NYT “The Daily Podcast” to do an episode on the story and I recommend the March 18 episode, “Your Car May Be Spying on You”. That episode’s focus is on the Mercedes system, but it does talk about GM and Corvette owners.
1:42
I do not consent to this corruption
Okay cool, I was waiting for this since Jason’s comment at the end of last episode said something about not recommending CTRs. I was wondering what was up. Seems this was recorded a few weeks ago lol
Wait... So Toyota isn't doing this? Kinda shocked, honestly
Edit - Toyota does do this too, through the app. You have to turn off "Insure Connect" in the settings, if you had previously allowed it to collect data...
You can turn off the connected services pretty easily. They actually have their own branded insurance and probably use the information there unless you opt out. I just wonder though if they keep it in house or allow 3rd parties to purchase the data. They're doing good enough financially to not have to sell out for what mediocre pennies the data companies give like GM and Hyundai/Kia at least.
Mazda also has this, but so far as I can tell, it's opt in through the mazda connect app (which is how you remote start the car and schedule maintanance).
I wish they would have covered the dichotomy of car companies selling performance cars on the benefits of speed and power, then cancelling warranty coverage and now insurance if you actually use their cars in that way. I have heard unconfirmed stories of companies that invite you to a track day or include an SCCA membership or sponsor track events to get you to buy, but then deny warranty coverage because a driver's name was listed on a track night or autocross results page, or they posted a UA-cam video.
Back when i had my 2019 Veloster N i had taken the Cellphone/satellite wire out of the shark fin, couldn't get access to blue link but the only thing it was capable of doing is unlock the damn doors on an app lol
Brilliant
I got my Veloster N used, I’m hoping the bluelink isnt active. I got it from Carmax lol
My insurance offered me this option. To monitor your driving skills , like speed, stop signs etc….
This also means where you go is revealed also.
Like regular Walmart or red light district visits.
This private info could be sold.
A few thoughts about this, which does not surprise me but does make me unhappy.
Regarding hard acceleration and hard braking, the insurance company does not care about your driving ability, they only care about their risk. Even if you are not at fault and this is part of normal driving (i.e. how I have to drive in big cities like NYC, DC, etc), they will want to charge more. The real risk here is penalizing you based on data for how often you are on the road as that also increases your risk. Add in the driving behavior and many folks may be uninsirable or very expensive to insure even if they are not being irresponsible.
This would also kill most of these gig workers that drive and the Turo business model.
If some one cuts you off and you brake hard why should that be used against you avoiding a accident, which they cannot know without using front cameras.
That’s discrimination based on assumptions.
Another clang of the Alex j was right jar. Btw diesel gate was great, i got 60mpg and loads of power
There was this thing Alex Roy was on about that he thinks in a few years, they will be adjusting your insurance rate through your phone in real time tracking how you drive.
This also reminds me of him saying that if everything did go autonomous, the real cannonball will be held with old cars, driven by humans, roguelly, flying past all the boxes.
I do find the eco score on my parent's 2022 Yaris Hybrid completely condescending and sucks all the fun reviewers claimed it had when it's judging how "economically" you drove at the end of a run. I'd be giving my parents a huge hit everytime I drove it if that was the case and it was tracked 😁
But yeah. Drive old cars, can do. I enjoyed "disquieting" being defined as "the knocking sound your phantom makes in the engine bay" lmfao
One video I watched, someone was driving a new mustang. It could read the speed limit signs and knew if you were spending, and it would slow you down to the speed limit.
Cocaine and brothels - how is this different from other episodes? 😄
Lexis nexis has an opt out page. Every American should visit it. This only scratches the surface of the information they have access to.
Wow, this is critical information. Makes me kinda glad I sold my Elantra N now. Definitely going to pull the cell modem fuse on my Mach 1 in case Ford gets any funny ideas.
Don’t be surprised if other systems are affected. W/ a lot of GM vehicles if you disable OnStar you lose Bluetooth connectivity.
@@Bob_Smith19 according to forum posts, it sounds like the cell modem on the S550 mustang has its own exclusive fuse
If your car has the sensors and is desiged to do this level of trackin, and you connect your phone via Bluetooth, that's all the connectivity the car needs to send the data out. Simply having a disabled or obsoleted cell modem in the vehicle isn't a guarantee that the data isn't going to be transmited out. That and many cars also have a WiFi modem. It could also be downloaded by the dealership.
When the LexxisNexxis stuff first broke a few months back, I looked into whether Mazda was selling my MX-5's data. Turns out the answer is yes, but it's opt-in only, and the option only even matters for cars that have Mazda Connected Services enabled. The MX-5 manual version as of 2023 does not. The automatic version seems like it does, as of 2024. Not sure if the manual version does as well in that year.
Insurance companies do the same thing through Apps. Offer a discount for “safe driving”. I tried it and quit because it made me do things i never had thought of doing before to avoid hard braking and quick acceleration.
Running “red lights” that were yellow but i aint risking a demerit due to “hard braking”. Is the best example, swerving into oncoming traffic lane to avoid slamming breaks of the idiot in front of me who was texting instead of braking hard.
So how far back to go to avoid this kind of intrusive monitoring? 2010? 2000?
Anything w/ OnStar has the capability.
Anonymized data is what insurance companies should be using. That why they should be compensating actuaries for doing the statistical analysis. When insurance companies get personalized data, it is no longer insurance. It is a user cost.
If insurance is mandatory by law, the law should make it so that insurance companies are not for profit.
The top insurance companies make 5 cents per $1 they bring in. Insurance would be fine if the government didn't devalue your money through inflation and make everything cost more every year.
At 54:40, I was really hoping Jake was going to put in a screenshot of TH James - I mean Margot Robbie - in the pool
I have an FL5 but I don’t and won’t sign up for “Honda Link” which is where your data is sold from. I will continue to drive my car with confidence.
Škoda, brothel and Prague. Great to hear about my city :D
Been battling with my new insurance company (Progressive) ever since my amazing prior insurance company (California Casualty) dropped all policies where I live in NJ. California Casualty never used b.s. lexis nexis data on my policy, and their information was also wrong with their reporting because I was in a literal zero percent at fault accident on October 1st and lexis nexis had me at fault. it's been a slog, they need to rectify this. I also feel like im gonna need dash cams in both my cars asap.
If anyone has every "tuned" a car and used systems such as ECUtek you can get a very good peak of the numerous sensors within a vehicle. IE ECUtek on say a VR30 obd has well over 60+ reporting sensors you can then visualize to a dashboard ie a cellphone or tablet or laptop etc. This reporting to a manufacturer is well, easy to understand.
I have a base 2016 Honda Civic with the 1.5L turbocharged engine and CVT transmission.
I’m under no illusions that the car (ALL CARS) are collecting data as they use the data such as pitch, yaw, engine load, engine speed, wheel speed, throttle position, steering wheel position, gear selected, etc., etc., to maintain vehicle control.
The ford dealership was super pushy about installing the stupid phone app when buying our new truck 2yrs ago. Now I know why…
2023 civic Si owner here! Insurance company has not dropped me yet and I definitely have never done top speed runs or any type of pull on the highway 😃 I did opt out from lexisnexis as soon as I saw this though. Thankfully that make that process very easy.
The DTS dictionary pop-up killed me haha. This show is awesome.
Could you share the “Jason recommends” shopping list with the world please! Now I’m second guessing wether my next car choice is on that list.
I like to test my brakes out from time to time, when I find safe places to do it. So I know if they are working they way they should. Hope insurance doesn't smack me. How will new drivers learn threshold braking? Just hope they know how when an emergency happens.
what most people don't know, you can go and unplug the control unit that does the reporting
If you drive well, “hard manoeuvres” are the symptom of emergency reactions and hard maneuvers cause hard braking, G forces and acceleration due to the briskness of the forces applied to mitigate the imminent danger ‼️
The 2nd owner NEVER even gets the option!!!
Also... you can't even set your parking brake if you disable the onstar system.