The Detransitioner Panic
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- Опубліковано 4 гру 2023
- 99% of people who transition continue identifying as transgender for the rest of their lives. The very small amount of people who stop or reverse their transitions - known as “detransitioners” - have become the center of a moral panic about children, gender, and medicine. Lucy, a detransgender woman, joins us to unpack what’s real and what’s hysteria.
Lucy's TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@luckartikasar...
Lucy's Instagram: / luckartikasari
Lucy's Twitter/X/whatever: / luckartikasari
Regret rate studies and statistics!
The 1% trans regret statistic, from AP: apnews.com/article/transgende...
Tattoos: www.statista.com/statistics/4...
Knee replacements: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...
Corrective spinal surgeries: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34812...
Surgeries: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243...
Student loans: www.cnbc.com/2021/04/08/older...
More of A Bit Fruity: / abitfruitypod
More of Matt: / mattxiv
Produced by Samantha Land: / samalander
Edited by Justin Bretter: / fieldsobriety - Розваги
Love how conservatives are going "what happened to being a tomboy or being a feminine man?" when it comes to trans people as if they're not whining every other day that feminism makes women "too manlish" and that men like Harry Styles wearing dresses is the end to society.
Seriously they pick and choose so much ... and at the end of the day, no matter their stupid reasoning all comes back to transphobia and a rejection of how people can choose to present however they want (masculine, feminine) without necessarily being correlated to their gender identity.
(Also, sorry if this sounds obvious 😅 I'm trying to learn how to talk about how hypocritical their arguments are, and I really liked how you phrased the inconsistency of many conservative transphobes and homophobes)
they also regularly make fun of trans ppl they deem as "not trying hard enough"... if you don't want to quote unquote "pressure people into transitioning", shouldn't we tell people that they don't need to do anything to their bodies if they don't want to? LIKE TRANS ACTIVISTS HAVE BEEN SAYING????
And simultaneously call trans people tomboys and feminine men lol
I have the tomboys. They're all in my dreams. No, cons, you can't have any!
Exactly! They will never be satisfied or happy with GNC people. They’re just trying to present it in baby steps.
I never understood using detransitioners as a gotcha. I am pro trans because I want people to live their truth. If you are transitioning and it's not helping you, I don't want you to be forced to keep going.
Not only that, but RE-transitioners are a thing. People that "disagree" with trans people always seem to center only one type of detransitioners... Yet, they never have a response for those that have detransitioned, but RE-transition LATER.
Yeah, like, my "cohort" of online trans women in tech (as in, we transitioned around the same time and found each other through online tech channels) included one who eventually detransitioned, and we were all supportive of them, and they didn't have any bad feelings about their experience.
There is no such thing as someone’s personal truth. Only THE truth
Well said!
Ehh.. it's like those 1-2 emails that were sent to Dr. Laura in the 90's:
"I'm a former gay, but my life was empty... I saw the light, found Jesus, now live happily with two children and we go to Church every Sunday."
Assuming it's all true (big assume there)... and you're not in love with your wife because you're gay... are you really all that happy?
I think Abagail of Philosophy Tube hit the nail on the head when she said that detransitioners aren't in opposition to transitioners because they're both seeking gender-affirming care.
Good sentiment, but there's also something about that quote that makes me want to say "I don't need your moral blessing to be a valid detransitioner". Like should there ever have been any question that detransitioners were in opposition to transitioners?
@@davidgjam7600it needed to be said not because Philosophy Tube is queen or something, but because PragerU et al are putting out million-dollar campaigns to divide and conquer queer people.
That’s not always true. Many detransitioners still want to be the opposite sex. They just feel that transitioning is futile and often experience a change in worldview. Some of them also experience health issues.
@@davidgjam7600thats a fair point, but i don’t think pro-trans people and transitioned individuals saw it as a counter against them. It was anti-trans people first that said, hey there are people who detransitioned therefore being trans is wrong and not real. I dont think anyone that was pro-trans started off saying detransitioning is an opposition, but anti-trans people treated it like one.
@@roarinwaters33 Just a useful tool to divide for the right and the GC's in bed with them.
Oli london was not even trans.... he was literally a troll on kpop stan twitter. Its insane how he becomes face of detransitioners
I mean, I don't think he was a troll in the internet sense, he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to surgically turn himself into Jimin, then tried to physically stalk Jimin. Internet trolls don't go that far, boy was obsessed.
they do tho, look up Chris Chan
@@migoreng7789 To my knowledge she has not detransitioned, nor was she ever a troll. She was harassed endlessly by trolls.
Also to my knowledge none of her trolls have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for surgical intervention in an attempt to troll her.
Either way, it's a false equivalency.
Edit: Spelling
i don't typically like to doubt other people's identities but oli london went from calling himself a trans woman to "actually i'm detransitioning, please buy my upcoming book about how i, a grown adult in his 30s, have been groomed by the trans activists" in the span of literally like 4 months. even putting aside the fact that he underwent zero gender affirming care during that time, it's such a sudden pivot to an extreme ideological position that i have to wonder whether him identifying as a trans woman in the first place was genuine, or just the prelude to his next attention-seeking grift
@@scaldcrowe So Oli did identify as a trans woman then? I usually keep up to date on unique cases like him, so it was jarring that suddenly he was like "F trans people, I'm a detransitioner" I was like "No???"
Lucy's definition of "detransgender" reminds me of someone I once followed on tumblr talking about "retransitioning" rather than "detransitioning". Like framing your identity shift as not a reversal but a continuation of your ongoing gender experience.
!! i love this
Not anti-trans, but surely there is a limit to how many gender changes (surgical or not) doctors are willing to do on a person before their bodies can't handle any more drugs and/or surgeries.
@@elihutfles1146 well. It depends on the surgeries and other changes. What are you referring to specifically? Like hormones? If there are any negative effects to going on and off testosterone or estrogen repeatedly (besides subjective effects on mood), there isn't any scientific literature about it. Most of the changes from either T or E are reversible just like they reversed the original effects of puberty. And if you're referring to surgery, what kind? Anyone who gets bottom surgery goes in knowing it's irreversible. A breast augmentation can usually be undone though. There's so many things you could be referring to.
And aside from all that, the way I meant "retransition" doesn't necessarily mean medical detransition, plenty of people stay medically transitioned and happy with their post-op bodies even as their gender identity shifts and changes. Some people will decrease their HRT dose instead of getting off it entirely. A lot of instances of what I'm describing are less of a detransition than a nonbinarization.
that is why forced sterilisation to be able to change the sex marker is horrible... let people make their own decisions
this episode was truly healing as a detrans person who one million percent supports trans rights, and has been scared to speak bc i don’t want to hurt other trans voices. thank you for helping me realize i’m not a bad person and just a human 🫶
same!! hello & you are not alone.
❤
You're still loved and appreciated by us trans people. You're not a bad person, you're just yourself ❤
I'm a trans guy, which means I'm part of a community that represents 1% of the population. Being politicized as this tiny percentage really sucks. You are literally 1% of 1% and maybe even _more_ politicized. It sucks and I hope you are doing well. Trans or detrans, life is tough right now.
never be afraid to speak on your experience my friend, your voice matters as much as ours.
As a trans person I feel that people who detransition are still a part of our family. We should still support them and love them through their journey.
Edit: Just wanted to throw this in here for understanding. I tried transitioning when I was 19 and ended up detransitioning because of the lack of support. When I had support 9 years later I started again.
This is a shockingly refreshing stance. Most activists won't do this because then they'd have to acknowledge the role they played in contributing to detransitioners.
@@synchronium24 Mostly it's because detransitioners are used against them all the time. Of course they want to distance themselves from something that is used as a weapon by the uninformed. If that weren't the case people would be more supportive, speaking from experience detransitioners seemed to get a lot more support before Joe public became an 'expert' on the subject.
100% a lot of them only do so because of a lack of support. And for the few who actually weren’t trans they’ve still gone through trans experiences so they should always be welcome. Under some models I’d be considered de transitioned because I stopped taking hrt because i had some personal stuff I needed to work on and going through puberty again was making that more difficult.
Transition is rarely linear and I think most trans people recognize that. The problem isn't people who decide to change course in their transition, but those who want to blockade others from being able to others from accessing care
Okay thank you so much for sharing your experience, it provides great insight. It is so infuriating having opportunities for learning and having an open dialogue in society when conservatives force their way in and derail any and everything. They’re like a heard of buffalos that get spooked if the wind blows a certain way and have this giant meltdown that the media also amplifies. It’s infuriating.
I'm cis and never once had the thought of transitioning to be a woman. If I had taken a couple years to go, "Hmm, maybe... Wait, nah," so what? I would still be me, the cis guy, and some trans dude in Texas should be allowed to live his life with dignity like I should, without some politician being paternalistic and bigoted to control their life choices.
My existence doesn't disprove the existence of trans people any more than detransitioning people would do so. Regret is not justification for delegalization.
People have different life experiences and identities, they don't "cancel out" each other to make one or multiple immoral or invalid.
Thank you for being so rational about this issue. You are appreciated
I'm a cis woman who grew up in a very traditionalist christian environment in a tiny village. I've never identified with the way women were seen or behaved and I did have a period of seriously consideting whether I'm trans. Afterwards I decided I'm not, I am okay with being a woman, just not the woman *they* want me to be. After that even I for a time held a weird backwards belief that this meant transition is buckling to that societal pressure and that trans men are just tomboys etc. I've changed my mind by now, I saw a lot of trans people speak about their experience and it hit me that I do not fully understand trans people because I do not have that experience myself but it does not diminish their own.
What I'm trying to say it's ironic how it's that rigid attitude and expectation that pushed me into doubting my gender. I'm 27 now and more comfortable and not as scrutinized anymore, but I fought tooth and nail to not be questioned at every step, word and breath, to be just given space to not be a super feminine woman. This is what they mean when they say transphobia affects even cis people. I've had family members trying to "save" me from just being me. It's a horrid thing all around. I can see how someone who detransitioned might pull a 180 because for a time I kind of did, although I held that belief to myself and didn't try and dictate how others deal with their problems because I don't know them.
I don't know, maybe it really is just the grift. But those words from Chloe made me sad. I know that feeling in a way, where your environment puts such pressure on you you crawl in your own skin daily. But I find it difficult to believe she believes what she says wholeheartedly.
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@Viral9 the majority of transgender people that I have ever met oppose over-medicalization of gender dysphoria. Most of us would prefer that people not feel the need to medically transition.
Earlier in my reconciliation, I swore I'd never get FFS, but the more anti-trans backlash I encounter, the more I feel the need to get every possible procedure so I can live completely stealth. I also frequently consider "detransitioning" as a means of escaping growing animosity, but my version of detransition just means going back in the closet, and since I would rather die than have masculinizing levels of testosterone, I would still take estrogen and hate looking like a man.
If, however, someone starts cross-hormone therapy and dislikes the effects, I absolutely encourage such a person to stop. If someone's uncomfortable with *any* of the "side effects" of HRT, they shouldn't do it.
I very much consider myself a *radical* trans activist. I don't believe we should have to pass or fulfill every stereotype of our gender identity, and I also have no issue with detransitioners. I've also spoken with enough detransitioners to know that detransition ≠ transphobia. Many people detransition for health, legal, social, or financial reasons. Others for religious reasons. That's fine. But when they use their experience to make broadstroke attacks against the agency and autonomy of others is when I have a major problem.
It's also important to note that the majority of anti-trans detransitioners are white and at some point economically privileged or had someone else picking up the bill. The majority of us have to prove to multiple therapists and doctors that we have crippling dysphoria for insurance to cover anything. So, as far as safeguards, what we need is one standard model rather than one set of guidelines for impoverished people with persistent dysphoria and another for privileged people making sudden, rash decisions.
@@mxdahliabelle I would argue that someone who is comfortable with who they are would not find a reason to pursue medicalization or surgery, and the idea that medicalization is seen as any kind of solution is indeed the problem. If you feel you need to get FFS because of how you want other people to perceive you and not because it's how you wish to view yourself, then you should talk to someone about such feelings as that is not a healthy way to live your life, solely based on the expectations of others. I don't mean that in a facetious way, it is indicative of a personality disorder, and worth exploring further.
I love detransitioners. I've never met a detrans person in my real life who wasn't a staunch ally. And detrans people and trans people require a lot of the same legal, social and psychological support. We're in this together. Also, not for nothing, but plenty of detransitioners go on to retransition. Your relationship with your gender is yours and if it changes, or if you take steps that weren't right for you, thats okay. It's all part of a long winding journey that shouldn't need to end with a cis-appearing body. Much love.
If you peek into detrans communities, you may discover that a lot of detransitioners don't want to speak up in opposition because they are essentially afraid of getting cancelled. They are afraid of being disowned and shunned by a community that supported them solely because they decided to transition. If they stop being trans they fear losing that community. You may not believe that to be true, but there are at least as many examples of those who have been shunned than those are afraid to out themselves as detrans, many living a dual-life all over again as they pretend to live as their transitioned gender unsure of where to turn.
As for retransition rates, that's according to the 2015 USTS, which is a survey of trans people and not detransitioners. You need to survey the relevant group of people to get relevant results.
I love how Lucy has quite an Americanized accent and all the sudden hits us with the 'naurr' haha. Such an important conversation, love from The Netherlands
Love from Italy...
I adore your english accent!
@@micol7490Her accent is from Australia !
Disrupting gender-affirming care hurts detransitioners because transitioning is more or less the same process regardless of what you're transitioning to or from.
Let's clear up a misconception. Detransitioning isn't a "transition back to your former gender," it's realizing that your sex characteristics weren't the problem, and then dropping the treatment. Yes, hrt can be involved in trying to get yourself back to normal, but it's not a transition. You could even call it gender-affirming at times, but it's still not a transition. It's no more a transition than an older man taking trt in order to feel healthy again.
@Eragarev my point was it's still a need for empathy, potentially hormone therapy, and possibly surgery. The label isn't important, what's important is that we don't go out of our way to prevent people's needs from being met out of weird malice, regardless of what those needs are!
@@notoriouswhitemothI agree and I appreciate your empathy, but calling it a transition still isn't right. It needs to be fully understood for what it is, and it shouldn't be equated to transitioning like that. It really is detransition since it's all about returning to your natural state from the form you were in when you were on treatment. Many detransitioners relax about pronouns and kind of resign themselves to the ambiguity of their new form as the effects ease off, too. I'm not trying to chew you out, I swear, but this is important.
There is a lot in common between the two groups, though, and I'm glad that more trans people are starting to view detrans people with more empathy, and most detrans people I speak to seem to still be supportive of the trans community, so I'm glad not all hope is lost.
@Eragarev Is there a term you would prefer I use to refer to care for trans people who genuinely want it and can afford it, for trans people who begin to go through the same procedures and then back out because they can't afford it either financially or socially, for gender-nonconforming cis people who receive those same medical procedures and then regret them (who are extremely rare but do exist), and for people from those last two categories who receive variants of those same medical procedures to mask (in the former case) or reaffirm (in the latter) their gender assigned at birth? Because all four of those, to me, seem like processes of change, which is what the word _transition_ usually means.
@@notoriouswhitemoth Don't waste time on this person, they're splitting hairs and acting as though every persons detransition experience is the same (if no one's transiton is the same, why would the detransition be...?) and I don't think they care about trans people so much as they care about being "right"
Thank you for respecting people who detransition while speaking honestly about this topic ❤ I detransitioned and I also believe that it's beneficial to understand detransitioning in order to better provide care to trans people. The communities are connected. It's just really fucked up in public discourse right now. These people speaking out are grieving and don't know how to handle it. I was there once. I'm glad I found healing.
I definitely hate the way that the conservative community often pits us against eachother. Detransitioning is valid! It's okay to decide that being trans wasn't for you and changing your mind. Changing your mind is human. Making that something that all trans people will do is idiotic and sadly becomes the voice of the detrans conservatives. We are connected.
I’m a trans guy, and you are 100% valid (not that you need to hear that from me). My opinion on it is that when detransitioners take the route of “oh it was my doctors fault, therefore I’m gonna try and get that doctor in trouble or take trans rights away” they’re having the opposite effect they want, if that makes sense.
You are right when you say taking into account detransitioners helps provide better care. Because it does. But if these detransitioners that I mentioned previously achieve what they’re saying, all they’re going to do is make it harder for people to detransition without an insane amount of judgement
Yeah i really hate how detransitoniners are being used as political pawns because detransitoniners have so much in common with us trans people. It's so beneficial for the two communities to help eachother out and i hate that this divide has been placed between us.
As a cis psychotherapist trying to also offer support if ppl want to come to my office and find help regarding their transition or just figure out more about their gender identity I would be so happy if there was more information out there how to help the few ones better who then will be the detransitioners. And the conservative propaganda is not helping there:(
Is there something someone /a therapist could have asked you so you could have figured out before that maybe you actually don't want to transition? Any input is appreciated 😊
(Sorry, English isn't my first language)
agree. many detrans people are tossed to the side and called invalid. they need to be spoken about! not to fuel anti-trans panic, but because they deserve to be heard!
It's pretty crystal clear to me that Lucy is EXACTLY whose she's supposed to be. Very stable, put together, reasonable, empathetic, pretty, smart, STRONG. She was a delight to listen to, absolutely.
TW: i also was harrassed and nearly a*sulted by older men as a young girl and soon after began binding my chest thinking it would protect me from further harm and resented how was perceived and my gender... so i really feel for Chloe but attempting to take rights away from other people is an awful and harmful response to her personal trauma. i still struggle with my gender and perception but those struggles have to be processed by professionals in therapy and supported by loved ones/community, not the national stage... anyways this was an amazing interview, Matt, and brought so much value to the conversation at large.
I had something similar happen to me but the other way around. I was a very feminine boy as a kid and so that made me a target, and to protect myself i felt like i needed to perform masculinity and it kept me in the closet for some years. It can happen in both directions so i do empathize with ppl who suffer through that. Hating other people is just postponing healing and harming others, , self acceptance and love is the key to solve these issues.
i relate to this. i started to cope with food. when i hit puberty in early 2000s (very specific body image trends iykyk) i both hated and welcomed the noticeable weight gain as i hoped it would help me become "ugly" to creeps. didn't have to do anything with gender identity, it's separate from whatever lead me to figure out i'm enby. i'm sending you good vibes btw 💜 take care
You are literally confirming what the likes of the LGB Alliance have been saying for years - that a significant number of people identifying as trans or nonbinary or who get later presenting dysphoria it is because of other reasons such as past trauma, homophobia or even internalised homophobia
Funnily enough these are not the first comments like this I've seen. So much for "born this way".
So Chloe is not trying to harm anyone. They see what is happening. What happened to her and others and want proper checks and balances put in place so those people aren't put on a pathway to lifelong medicalisation and mastectomies at 12 and 13.
I'm always fascinated by detransition stories like these, I'm ftm and honestly stories like yours and chloe's only make me feel more confident about my transition and the choice I made. I wasn't harassed or catcalled often as a young "girl", I never resented women or womanhood and I've been an outspoken feminist ever since I learned what that word meant. My transition doesn't feel like I'm running away from womanhood or misogyny it's more like I just settling into myself more comfortably
I definitely remember thinking that as a stud (masculine lesbian black woman). I remember thinking I would attract more women, men wouldn't want me and I wouldn't have to come out as much.
Yes, I was somewhat visibly queer. All genders were attracted to me and a lot of older men started to hit on me. Some heteroflexible men would hit on me too. I know that masculinity can only somewhat protect me. I know that hating femininity and women isn't what made me a trans person. It is what made me a misogynist.
It took time to separate my issues with patriarchy and internalized misogyny. I still came out non-binary trans on the other side. Some may not see themselves as trans afterwards. That is an understandable place to be in. Everyone isn't trans, but a few are. I just want people to explore gender in healthy ways cis, enby and/or trans.
Lucy's story about being able to view life through multiple lenses was beautiful. It's as if they really lived through 'Everything, Everywhere, All at Once'
As a trans man I really loved hearing from Lucy - her story, solidarity, and just general outlook on life
Detransitioned after 18 years. Knew before I did it that it would either not be accepted or it would be used against Trans folks. Therefore, I have never talked about it, either in public or private, except with my wife. I was proud when I transitioned, but when I detransitioned, I was merely resigned. Thanks for talking about it in an affirming way.
In general, im always annoyed by the idea that because some people detransition we shouldnt have gender affirming health care. Like, i regret getting lasik eye surgery, but i dont go around trying to ban people from getting it because i know pleanty of people who were very happy with their sight afterwards.
Why do you regret lasik eye surgery?
@whalium889 it didn't take and I basically went through a scary and painful experience that was quite expensive for nothing. But I had insurance for it and my brother also had lasik and he's never had any problems with his vision since.
Isn't it wild that the faction of MUH PERSONAL FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY are acting like the "nanny statist liberals" they despise, because they want to protect people from the consequences of their bad choices and limit options for consumers, eh?
@markgoble6725 well you clearly didn't read my reply to the person who actually asked a question in good faith. It didn't work, and my vision is terrible, all after going through the most painful experience of my life, which you have now trivialize for the sake of trying to hurt trans people. Thanks for that jerk.
@Marlena499 you don't get to use my experiences for your own agenda and if you actually cared you would understand why the thing you're saying are harmful to trans people.
I'm someone who detransitioned a few years ago and I want to say how much I despise the way the Right is using stories like my own as weapons to beat the LGBT community over the head with, as though our existence is some kind of 'gotcha' that disproves the validity of trans lives. It doesn't, and our stories aren't some bogeyman cautionary tale about what will happen to all trans people. Yes, we do exist and I think it is important to acknowledge us as we do have medical needs and still try to find a place for ourselves in the world, but this needs to stop being used as a weaponised wedge as all it is doing is pitting us against eachother when honestly, trans people and detransitioners have far more in common than not. Fully reversing a transition is in essence a transition in and of itself, and we have a shared experience with gender identity.
I transitioned in good faith and eventually found that it just wasn't right for me on a physical level- the things I thought would be positives on hormones turned out to be discomforting, and I discovered I was happy living as a feminine gay man, so after my name change and about 2 years presenting as a woman, I made the decision to go back. Do I wish the healthcare assistance in reversing my transition had been as good as pursuing it? 100%, but using detransitioners to inflict trans-negative healthcare policies only hurts our treatment, it doesn't help it so the people advocating for that are just shooting themselves in the foot. Do I suddenly hate trans people and blame them for my experience? No, that's ridiculous, its no trans person's fault my gender didn't turn out the way I thought it would, I regret some of the residual affects of hormones, but that isn't the trans communities fault.
This issue makes me really sad, and bad faith actors like Ollie London are exacerbating it just to make a buck, nothing but grifters and ghouls. In the LGBT community I usually just refer to myself as gender nonconforming now because of the massive politicisation of the word 'Detransitioner'. It feels tainted because of the right, like it carries with it a hatred for trans people and being a right wing tool.
I wish you luck and hope you didn't face unpleasant repercussions when you went back. I hope your story will do some good to others in similar situations in future.
fact is if you were seriously considering transitioning right now as you're younger self and were discouraged to do so as a result of the anti trans movement then you would have been dealt a great favour by them.
@@bepitan ... doesnt mean that everyone is just like them. what if someone wants to pursue transition, gets discouraged, and that wouldve been the right thing for them?
being LGBT is hard as it is. It's okay to pursue things that you strongly think will help you. It's not okay to tell other adult people what they can or cannot do with their own lives. Just because it might have benefited a small percentage, doesnt mean we should punish the vast majority of people who pursue transition and don't regret it.
@@bepitan That's not true at all, how would not pursuing something I thought was right for me out of the fear of right wing horror stories been good for me? It just would have meant I remained closeted for longer and that would not have been a good thing. You can't talk with authority on what would have been a 'great favour' for me, you don't know me and it is incredibly presumptive to declare that being discouraged by the anti-trans movement would have been a good thing. Fear is not a positive, I went through what I went through and it resulted in me now having a firm grasp on my identity.
Being frightened into never exploring who I am by horror stories would not have helped my life.
@@user-jn8rj3bs6j ..be honest, knowing what you know now would you willingly go through with it because that's what you seem to be implying ..we all can learn the hard way by putting our hand in the fire but isn't society supposed to take that bit out of the equation in order to save us from getting burnt?? ..just remember that people are getting their organs removed here, this is not some cosmetic exercise, its forever.
as a trans guy the question 'are you sure you're not gonna regret transitionning' is so absurd to me, because why would i ever regret something that's making me so happy and comfortable in my body right now, and that has prompted such a steady improvement in my mental health since two years. Even if someday i identify somewhat as a woman again i can't regret it, i can't disregard the positive impact transitionning has had on me, i will simply retransition in whatever way feels comfortable and move on with my life. there's no reason why my identity growing and changing over time would be scary
Yeah I think there is a problem with medical systems trying to fix illness rather than maximize health, right. So to them, being trans, deviating in any way, needing any sort of Healthcare, has to equate to an illness because that's the only way they can understand offering treatment, whereas for us it's really just that this makes us happier, rather than that we were ever I'll. But they expect you to do it once and be Done cause they don't think your happiness is worth spending public resources
Exactly! This is the my thoughts that I had before transitioning and committing to getting gender affirming care. It's like, I know this is going to make me immensely happy and it did. And even if I change my mind later on, I still know that in the end at least I gave it a solid try. Otherwise, I'd live with SO MUCH regret and it would be so much worse for me later on if I didn't. I already put it off for at least 5 years, wasn't about to wait any longer.
You don't hear people saying this kind of dumb shit after other medical procedures or therapeutic regimens. For some folks, this is literally helping them choose life or death!
"Are you sure you wanna go through all that physical therapy, John?"
"Hmm, now that I think about it, staying paraplegic after that bike accident sounds like a great change of pace!"
"Eh, I dunno, you really wanna consider transitioning? I don't want you rushing into something you'll regret."
"You're right, Frank, instead I thought I'd surprise you next month with my corpse in the bathroom. That'll be fun to clean up, right?"
@@Montesama314 That's a terrible example, especially bringing up the "trans son or dead daughter" trope. It's that kind of thinking - that it's this one cure-all treatment plan or death - that has created so many detransitioners with terribly tragic stories.
Here's a more apt detrans therapy experience:
"I hate who I am. Society is so unfair to my gender. My dad thinks so too. That must be why he abused me... to fix me, right? Because he still loves me... I've never been able to fit in because I'm so anxious all the time and I just can't figure out why I don't think and act like everyone else."
"Gender, eh? Let's explore that..."
@Viral9 whether you like it or not, when a Trans person is trying to medically transition it really is life or death for alot of us. AND even if a person regrets transition later (which is such a small number of people ESPECIALLY compared to the amount of people who's lives DRASTICALLY improved) they would still have benefitted from it because they're still alive to figure it out! That should be a good thing!
“there is joy in reinvention” wow. sobbing on the ground. it’s so meaningful to hear words of support from a detransitioner and to also get to share in her joy and experience. as a trans masc, we are so much more similar than we are different and it’s just nice to have a break in the scary noise :)
The thing that gets me the most about oli london is he wasnt ever really taken seriously by anyone on the left because he didnt come out as a trans woman he came out specifically as a trans korean woman so obviously the left didnt take him seriously.
But the right eat him up.
There isnt actually a single part of me that thinks he believes what he says his goal has always been to be famous and this is the best he has ever achieved that goal.
Also as a british trans guy, pretty much all the trans and detrans discourse is very america centeric, which since hes bloody british a lot of that doesnt even apply to his situation. Like legally in the UK you cant take HRT unless your 18, but he sure as shit will go on about kids taking HRT. Like the issues a detrans american person would have and a detrans british person would be different because our medical practices are different, we have different laws. But since the whole conversation is america centric thats all he parrot.
Frankly the dudes a wanker.
Oli London has always been what I can only describe as a professional lolcow. In, like, 2015 people in the alternative fashion community were already mocking him & somehow he's turned that into a career.
I was on Kpop Twitter around the time of his Jimin transition, and every fan I saw was regularly clowning him, because there is absolutely nothing about him to take seriously, even if you're not specifically knowledgable on the political side of things. It's so funny to me to see him on Fox News, being taken seriously.
My mutuals and I would use him as a meme when we were bored, and now he has a book published. I can't help but just laugh at the absurdity of it all.
Just here to show some love to Lucy! I watched the Zembla documentary, and then continued to Google for Lucy because the way she was edited didn't sit right with me. I really hope this reaches more Dutch people who might be influenced negatively by that documentary.
I don't really watch tv anymore (other than streaming) so I hadn't even heard of this documentary 🙈
I want to be aware of what's being said about the LGBTQIA+ community in my own country, but I'm also scared that the doc would really depress me.
Do you think I should still watch it, based on your own impression of it? Is Zembla very popular? I have to admit I am sooo out of the loop.
That’s so messed up!!!
@@ninawth I’ve seen the documentary and the framing is so obvious, which is a bit ironic for an organisation that claims to be about ‘independent investigative journalism’. The premise is that the Dutch transgender protocol is ‘controversial’ and they are pushing this controversy narrative by focusing on methodological issues in the early development of the protocol.
However, the protocol in question stems from 2006 and was very much a pioneering exercise. This was and is admitted by the researchers involved, because transgender care in this form was pretty much nonexistent up until then. The positive findings of the creators of the protocol are basically set aside because of a lack of control groups and data on long-term outcomes. The latter is quite ridiculous imo because you can’t ask for long-term outcomes with regards to a treatment that has only been around for a couple of years. Someone has to start somewhere, and it’s pretty strange to disregard all early work because there isn’t enough long-term data on its effectiveness. With regards to the control groups thing, they say that groups that only get psychological treatment or only medical treatment haven’t been compared to the protocol, which combines the two. They then use this as an argument to claim that the protocol is therefore not ‘proven’ to be effective, which is not really what’s happening here. The protocol very much has had good outcomes, but due to the nature of gender dysphoria and the novelty of transgender care in general, studies don’t adhere to the same standards of medical research - yet.
Like this video says; these gaps are not an argument to stop using the protocol - they are an argument to keep doing research and keep developing the protocol. Zembla is framing the issue as if Dutch children are treated conform a protocol that isn’t effective or has adverse effects such as detransitioning, but that’s really not at all the case.
In my opinion, Dutch journalism sucks in general, so I’m not very surprised. Luckily nobody really watches these documentaries lol.
From a medical perspective, detrans people are going to tell us a lot of what the long term side effects and reversibility/irreversibility issues are in ways that a trans person who stays so will not.
Lucy is the first person that I have heard speak up like this, I hope that others in that position may feel inspired to do the same. Thanks for uplifting such an important voice.
I love the term "detransgender"! That fits so well!
Or trans 2, electric boogaloo lmao
im not sure its applicable, a lot of detransitioners still identify as trans and have simply found that their measures of transitioning werent fitting anymore
@@bananafishbaitsI think that still qualifies as trans. It's an identity, not just what you look like.
@@bananafishbaitsthere’s also retransitioners. usually those folks make the transition from one binary to another. then detransition to something still trans, just less binary
@@dolson27 exactly, which is why im saying that. "detransgender" sounds like ur detransing ur gender, even though the gender, in fact, remains transed
i feel like something i keep noticing is people who later end up identifying as nonbinary after identifying as trans usually only ever mention learning about the swap between "man" and "women" instead of learning that gender isnt a set thing and that you can feel like neither or even both and it could be fluid and i wonder if theyd been taught a wider range of gender ideas and identities that they wouldve transitioned the way they did at all
edit: like getting a major breast reduction instead of a double mastectomy, something you could easily tape/bind to be flat but enough to create a lil bit of cleavage if wanted the same way
edit 2: or even prosthetic breasts if thatd be a better option for swapping out when wanted and get the mastectomy anyway cuz so many cis women do it anyway cuz breast cancer risk or just not wanting the weight on their shoulders and backs
This is something I often wonder. Usually detransitioned people are in or from very conservative areas where being woman or man is limited to set of things. So when they don't fit it, as most don't naturally do, they think they belong to the other gender. So this issue is being caused by harmful beliefs about gender in first place
@@anesidora3084 EXACTLY!
@@anesidora3084 I feel like something, especially for trans men, should also be said about the desirability politics, and feelings of low self-worth as a man getting mixed up in "am I really trans if I'm not okay with this?".
The same question often comes up as imposter syndrome when trying to make sense of the senseless violence and hatred visibly trans people face. In your head you're like "it's not a price I feel anyone should pay. I suppose that means my desires to be are not strong enough" about normal, universally human reactions to transphobic violence, and also to other interpersonal violence, lack of warmth, isolation and feelings of lacking romantic or sexual prospects as well.
It's not a coincidence that internalised misandry, misogyny, transphobia and homophobia and so many other forms of hate complicate our identities in these similar ways - we all seek a way out. But it seems like all others are regularly weaponized in rhetoric against trans people. Internalised transphobia or fear of transphobic violence are not represented proportionally as reasons for trans people to deny THEIR OWN identities to themselves, though.
You can't have it both ways. Either we have to admit that these escape-mechanisms include trans people being coerced out of their identities, and talk about how this is done by TERFs and right wing media - OR there are no such instances at all, and the former don't even have the most basic of their frequently used "gotchas" etiher.
I grew up thinking I must want to be a boy since I didn't feel right as a girl. But being trans still didn't feel right either.
When the language for nonbinary hit the scene it changed my life. I'm grateful for that information as I know that transitioning into a man would have been full of regrets.
@@stellastarfield1111 Yeah, I thought I was a binary trans woman when I first started transitioning. Turns out I wasn't. Like, at all. My dysphoria had The first couple of months were fine, I liked the effects enough, but it was only until the more drastic changes started occurring that made me go 'oh, I don't like this.' It was corrected quickly, thank Tyr, lowered dose at my next checkup appointment.
as someone who felt went through basically the same timeline as her, coming out at 12 and beginning to medically transition at 16, her experience is so comforting. My transition is saving my life, but if it stops, so can i. There is a life after transition, even if it doesn’t turn out to be the one i want, i can keep my options open.
Wow. I didn't know detransition could remain a trans affirming life path. Thank you Lucy for sharing your story and changing my mind.
That’s because Lucy only cares about her community and not what the trans movement does to it
@@ryanthomas9306 ok I'll bite, what's your soapbox?
@@CaptainLeif161you didn’t respond to my comment so you didn’t bite
You asked a question to change the conversation, it’s a basic fallacy
take your meds@@ryanthomas9306
@@CaptainLeif161what meds are those ?
This is the first detrans story I've been able to listen to because I knew it wouldn't be transphobic. Thank you for helping me to see that their stories really do need more coverage from our side, you're doing so much just by putting this out there. I feel pretty in touch with trans/LGBTQA+/queer topics and this is the first I've really heard this perspective. 💜💜💜
The increase in gender affirming care from 2016 onward in the US also happens to coincide with the implementation of section 1557 of the Affordable Care Act, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of gender identity for coverage of treatments that are covered for other reasons/diagnoses. The increase in access to care increased the number of people accessing that care. Including for those of us who waited literal decades to access care because we simply couldn't afford it without insurance coverage for it.
They'll argue that trans people shouldn't have legal protections because we're such a tiny minority... while also using detransitioners who regret ever having transitioned (a tiny minorty of a tiny minority of all trans people) to say we shouldn't have health care or legal protections.
Also: Detrans folks are part of the trans community--if they want to be.
@@tyghe_bright They generally aren't allowed to be. More often they are shunned by that community for detransitioning. Whether the community does that due to insecurity or the apparent sacrilege is hard to say, but it's typically not the detransitioner's choice. They get abandoned.
@@Viral9 Speaking from personal experience? Do you have statistics or a study of how many are rejected and are not?
Or just anecdotes that come from people with an anti-trans agenda?
@@tyghe_brightDo you have a study that proves otherwise? Your anecdotes aren't more valid than mine. If personal experience matters to you then listen to those who have it instead of discounting people conspiratorially who have professed that experience.
No we say you can get your surgeries, we are saying pay for them yourself as an adult
Don’t utilize the government to push your ideology
this is such a breath of fresh air in comparison to all the transphobia in the world. hearing stories like this really help solidify my own trans identity. i started t 8 months ago and they’ve been the greatest 8 months of my life. i feel like i can finally show up in the world as myself.
but i’m about to turn 19 so i guess it’s downhill from here /j
That got a chuckle outta me 👏🏽
(Edit) chuckle, not chicken
I think what a lot of people don’t realize is that identity *is* mutable. You *can* change your mind later. What feels right *right now* may be different from what you feel tomorrow or next week or next year. It’s not just a one-way street. Like Lucy said, his transition was a core part of their story, and even to this day, she still identifies with genderqueerness. Everybody goes through this to a certain degree, bc we’re growing and changing as people. I used to think I’d have short hair forever, but these days I’m more and more realizing that my view of masculinity is evolving and that evolving view includes long hair, painted nails, and other “feminine” things. But those, to me, affirm my masculinity now, while a few years ago, I would’ve been afraid or even dysphoria to even consider the idea. Trans people don’t always end up in the same place. There’s not one single path for us to take. I hope Lucy continues to thrive, and only wish the best for them.
(Also before anyone comes for me, Lucy says in the video that she uses she/they/he pronouns, so I am using those pronouns interchangeably for them)
It’s pretty problematic you’re assuming Lucy is allowing you to use those pronouns interchangeably
@syv2319 how else are you supposed to use multiple types of pronouns for someone who likes multiple types of pronouns, except interchangeably?
"Oli London can meet me in the pit" - absolute perfection, no notes.
We're definitely using "there is joy in reinvention"
Personal growth and evolution is nothing to be looked down on ❤
Maybe the worst thing about the weaponization of those who detransition against the trans community is that the people who detransition and don't want to be used that way get their stories erased. Thank you for speaking your truth with love in your heart, Lucy.
Agreed being 19 is the worst thing. I remember being 19...*shudders*
Before this I had literally only seen Chloe and Oli as public "detransitioners" lol. Nice to see a different perspective. I also think there are certainly people who regret their medical transitions much more than Lucy, but are still able to view their personal experience as one of the multitudes of trans experiences. I hate that nuance is so often removed from this conversation when presented in the media. You can fully regret something while still recognizing that it is the right thing for others. I hope detrans people don't end up feeling pressure to NEVER acknowledge personal regret.
Thank you all for this honest conversation. This made me realize that, regardless of where our gender journey takes us, it’s not only important to avoid carrying regrets, but also carrying resentment.
What I took away from it was that queer spaces are will be there to process in a safe and healthy way any regret or fear or confusion in general. Meanwhile conservative spaces will not only not care and literally pray your existence away, they’ll also take the extra step of stripping you of your humanity by turning you into their own sideshow to take rights away from everyone.
Lucy, "Love wins." So true.
Lucy sharing about progressing instead of undoing, related to the term post-transition was extremely deep and inspiring. Thank you for this!
I was a little wary to watch this, because I’m so used to seeing conservatives weaponize people who detransitioned against the trans community, especially to deny us healthcare and strip us of basic humanity. But I’m glad I watched, because hearing how thoughtful Lucy is, listening to her journey, and learning that no, people who detransitioned AREN’T largely against trans healthcare, was such a breath of fresh air. Gender is a funny thing, refusing to stay static or solid, and viewing people who detransitioned as still part of our community and still on their gender journey is a phenomenal suggestion. Thank you, Lucy and Matt, for this great discussion.
Its heartbreaking to realize that the right has demonized detransitioning folks all over again. I had the same initial fear that a de- or retransitioned person would invalidate the transcommunity. The rightwingers really pander to all kind of fears and try to make enemies out of allies. Really heartbreaking. But good to see that we are not having it.
Thanks to both of you, Matt and Lucy, for letting us have acces to such an important discussion ! It was very interesting, and as Lucy said, it doesn't happen much to hear nuanced yet honest accounts from people who have detransitioned. It was really nice to witness your exchange, much love to you both !
TY so much to Lucy for putting herself out there this way. 😭❤ I love the description of "detransgender" as being "of transgender", gives me goosebumps to know someone is out there proudly identifying this way. ❤❤❤
It makes it sound French and sophisticated 🇫🇷🧑🎨🥖🏳️⚧️
I watched a lot of detrans videos when I was figuring stuff out for myself and my gender. One thing I hear from a lot of detransitioners (though not all) is that transition was what they needed at the time and for some of them, it also saved their life. I think trans healthcare that is tailored to the individual, that really explores avenues other than the traditional 'hormones then surgery pipeline' (but is inclusive of them as well) is the best approach. I'm NB and I would've gotten top surgery and hormones a couple years back until I really sat down and considered all the possibilities. I'm still thinking things over but I'm pretty sure I don't want top surgery and I am happy binding when I need to. Still on the fence about hormones but exploring other avenues first (e.g. voice training)
❤❤❤
what helps reduce detransitioning is open conversations about identity and sexuality and open access to mental health care and informed access to gender affirming care. but no, just ban it all THAT will surely help.
Misdiagnosis happens and has happened across the entire medical professional field. I have been misdiagnosed 2 times for my vision impairment. I got told that my vision impairment was psychological when it wasn't. This led me to actually have psychological issues. Using my experience to discredit the entire field that treats eye conditions would be wrong.
Exactly!
Also, I would wager that other conditions are misdiagnosed much more often, and that the consequences of that misdiagnosis are much more damaging, but I don't see transphobes fighting on behalf of, say, autistic people who were incorrectly diagnosed with bipolar disorder or Borderline Personality, or the countless women whose serious and sometimes, life-threatening ailments have been dismissed as "hysteria."
It should go without saying that none of the transphobes' stated concerns are their real concerns.
It's not a matter of misdiagnosis, it's that a diagnosis is no longer required. When gender dysphoria was diagnosed by professionals in prepubescent children and that diagnosis persisted into adulthood, and they did not desist as well over 80% of their peers did, there was an easy case to make for transition. But today you don't even need dysphoria to be trans. There are definitely overzealous and overly-affirming therapists sending people down the wrong path, but trans is just an identity now.
It would be more akin to you taking a pill because your vision was impaired without ever having seen a doctor. You could describe your experience to someone else and they might think they have the same condition and could be dead wrong. So this isn't so much a matter of misdiagnosis as it people getting offended at the notion that they need one.
Rates of detransition for trans people pre-2010 are very low, but that's because we used to work with people to resolve their dysphoria with therapy and only the staunch remainder transitioned. But now that those diagnosis are purportedly meaningless and psychotherapy has been banned in some cases as "conversion therapy" we're inevitably going to see detransition rise dramatically.
@@Viral9 You don't need a diagnosis to be trans. This point is specifically about gender dysphoria though. Gender dysphoria is sometimes a misdiagnosis for other issues. In that way my experience is comparable.
@@extremepostyo5242 Yes and my point is that all of our studies that prove low regret rates are based off of people who transitioned with a gender dysphoria diagnosis after persisting from prepubescence and did not transition until adulthood. Those are very specific conditions wherein we can be confident of low detransition rates. But outside of those conditions we can't be so confident that rates of detransition will remain low. That's why misdiagnosis is a separate thing; when trans doesn't require dysphoria then there's no longer a diagnosis to compare against. Misdiagnosis is almost irrelevant then. Anyone can choose to transition, and do so for bad reasons. Rising rates of detransition, which are present with more recent transitioners, are the result.
Eye conditions don’t require a psychologists for diagnosis
Matt described exactly how I felt about the way conservatives portray Oli London. Oli is a lolcow creepy stalker who wants to look exactly like specific idols in kpop. He wasn't really trans. It was just cosmetic surgery to look like a very specific person. There were other people out there who had surgeries to look like celebrities they idolized, and his "transitioning" was much more similar to that one guy who had cosmetic surgery to look like a ken doll. But conservatives treat him as if he were a regular trans person who detransitioned.
"I was born in australia, moved to the netherlands..."
Oh thank god I had no idea how much I needed an explanation for the accent.
The slightly uncanny accent that sounds american (but like no american you've ever heard) throwin' Aussie vowels.
I'm not really a podcast person, but I always look forward to this one.
I was a bit nervous to watch this one, as a person early in transition myself, and I am both elated and pleased with it. What a lovely episode ❤
I was really wary starting this video, and I'm very glad I pushed through it. Lucy, I am so grateful you are sharing your story. Your experience is so important for people generally to understand and care for everyone at all stages of transition.
i feel so so bad for daisy. i started watching her videos years and years before her detransition. it’s really sad to see her become a spearhead in the fight against us. the fact that she still experiences dysphoria is heartbreaking. i hope she’s okay someday.
Regarding European detransitioners: there's a detransitioned lesbian couple who got interviewed by the BBC a year or so ago, for a documentary called She2He2She (yes, really), who were from Belgium and Germany. They transitioned quite young, became a couple, started getting into radical feminism, and then decided to detransition when they experienced transition-related health problems; they're really sanguine about the whole thing, but the article absolutely used them as "proof" that no one under the age of 25 should be allowed to transition. They run a website for detransitioners, and they're like "We don't censor people! We're neutral on the subject of whether transition should be allowed or not! :) " which means that they keep platforming detransitioners who DO want transition-related healthcare to be entirely banned...like Keira Bell.
Keira Bell is the face of UK detransitioners, who regretted her transition and decided to take the London Tavistock Clinic to court over it. Bell v Tavistock caused the NHS to ban all puberty blockers for under-16s, before campaigners were able to highlight how much of a disaster that would be for trans youth. She absolutely laid the groundwork for the horrific Cass Report to decimate trans healthcare for children and teens, and they're going to use it as a springboard to come for transition care for adults as well.
Voices like Lucy's are needed more than ever, because there are absolutely detransitioned TERFs in the UK and Europe who are making the lives of trans people worse.
Feeling like the people advocating for intensified medical gatekeeping did not watch this video at all…
This was a great conversation, thank you Matt and Lucy :)
Thank you so much! I'm Dutch, so it's extra valuable to have heard what Lucy really has to say, instead of the Zembla misrepresentation. I haven't seen it, but people in my network are bound to have seen that one. So thank you both!
Matt has the best choice in topics 👏🏽
I wanted to transition for 5 years…. Eventually took hormones for a while, and loved looking prettier, feeling and getting perceived more feminine- But hated the ED, weak orgasms, not having tiny shoulders, being tall, and having a voice that didn’t match. There is a price. Dysphoria isn’t some magical thing only trans people suddenly feel- it’s something anyone can feel: ‘I’m meant to be a girl, but these things don’t match. People think I’m weird. I hate these things’ - when I stopped the hormones and had a little therapy on understanding what I truly wanted (to be wanted), obviously the dysphoria went away because I was no longer mentally focused on what I lacked as a woman (and there will always be something). I shifted my focus onto why I feel so unwanted, and what I could do about it that doesn’t give me all these major disadvantages
"Dysphoria isn’t some magical thing only trans people suddenly feel- it’s something anyone can feel" Absolutely untrue, look I know appropriating trans language is the hot new thing online but feeling icky gender fee fees is not the same thing as gender dysphoria and the fact that you can't seem to tell the difference between the two tells me you actually have no clue what you're talking about.
This is literally like comparing clinical depression to feeling down and saying because both involve being sad they're both the same thing.
@@aflockofconnivingmagpies3490 I definitely agree it isn't just something "anyone can feel whenever", but don't these things also exist on a spectrum? Ie, you can have no depression, mild depression, severe depression etc? I imagine it's similar with gender dysphoria. Or is gender dysphoria different than depression in that it is much more binary?
@@aflockofconnivingmagpies3490 The no true Scotsman fallacy at work. This is why detransitioners feel rejected by their community and invalidated... because this is what the community does to anyone who rejects their personal savior.
@@commandershepard9920 Notice how I compared feeling sad to clinical depression and not mild depression to severe like *very* explicitly? That's because I compared two different things that can have similarities and still not be the same thing, not the same thing but at a different severity.
Comparing feelings of inadequacy related to your own gender and gender dysphoria is as much of a leap as comparing feeling sad to clinical depression, not "mild depression to severe depression". It's completely disingenuous to reframe it as though I compared two parts of a spectrum and said the lesser severity doesn't exist.
Just because you can feel sad doesn't mean you have clinical depression, just because you can have trouble focusing doesn't mean you have ADHD and in this same vein just because you can have bad gender fee fees does not mean you have gender dysphoria.
Like stop, seriously, read the actual definition of what gender dysphoria is, go to the DSM-5 and read what it actually means and stop trying to appropriate language that was never meant to be used like you all are using it ftlog.
@@aflockofconnivingmagpies3490 You know what? You can fly a kite and eat grass for all I care. I asked you a sincere question, my tone was respectful, and I was simply curious as to what you thought.
But if you're going to be like that, then I'll remind you that I can use whatever language I feel like, and you can't do a damn thing about it.
Dysphoria exists on a spectrum. You are not simply either dysphoric or not; you can suffer from mild to severe dysphoria and anything in between. Just like depression. And if you want to call that "appropriation", then feel free to scream that word at the top of your lungs, spittle and all, into the ether. I could not care less.
And while we're at it, who the heck are you to deny whether someone else has gender dysphoria? Although the statement, "anyone can feel dysphoria," is not true; the larger point being made by the OP (and the entire context of which you completely ignored) is that gender dysphoria is not always best treated by transitioning. It is very possible that the OP genuinely experienced gender dysphoria, and had found the best way to treat it did not involve transitioning and/or surgeries.
And even IF the OP did not actually ever truly suffer from gender dysphoria, it makes their testimony on the matter no less relevant or valuable.
And lastly, some advice: Being maximally insufferable will not help your cause. I'm not someone you have to persuade, but if this is how you talk to people who are moderately against gender affirming care/skeptical of it/simply unsure on the matter, then I ask you to please, just *please* , stop. You're making things harder.
As a non binary person who transitioned from a man to a person, the whole process has been very liberating, but also very scary... I think the most scary thing also has been to be scared of "walking back" some aspects of my transition, where i used to use certain pronouns, didnt like certain terms being used, changing my name, my cloths, basically everything about the way I present, but now im just basically indifferent to how other people refer to me (where i see myself as "total" non binary, or agender now). But the scary part has been telling people that it doesnt matter now and some of them (especially my friends) are litterally angry at me for "rolling back" my non binaryness.
But people change, try things, realise what is good about themselves and what they want to change. I needed (and still do need) to feel as a person before a man or woman, but thats enough for me! But if you need to medically transition, good for you! And if that medical and/or social transition has been an experience you feel hasnt been the right one for you thats okay too! The whole philosophy of transition is my body my choice, and choices can change! Everyone has the right to question their gender, change their gender, be who they feel is the best version of themselves! Detransition is valid, trans people are not a monolith, everyone has their own story and has different experiences, and as long as you live and let live, then try that identity and see if its for you, if not thats okay also!
Anyways, love your content Matt! Thank you for being such a positive and instructive person!
How does one transition from a man to a person ?
@@ryanthomas9306 more socially than physically, but in my case i stopped identifying as a man and holding on to masculinity, changing my name, my hair, having no facial hair, asking to be referred to as they and so on! But basically having to come out as non binary to my friends and loved ones and asking them to act accordingly to my identity! Like stop saying sir and so on
@@unostidecave385changing my name, hair and acting more feminine doesn’t change gender
@@ryanthomas9306 ah should have known you were not asking in good faith, is that what i said? They're is a whole social change that includes those two things, yet the whole changing my name, my whole perception of myself, the way i talk, act, people around me interact with me, etc... Have you ever heard that gender is a social construct? Also i said i was agender or non binary, so yeah i changed gender as in i dont adhere to having a set gender anymore. I didnt mean to remove or reduce the experience of "full trans" folks, but yeah your comment is pretty enby phobic, did you even watch the video?
@@unostidecave385”the way you talk” doesn’t describe gender
Very cool conversation between two smart, self-confident persons! Thanks, Lucy and Matt.
According to latest research, most parents in my country regret having children. I think we should therefore ban procreation, simply because I'm an antinatalist and it fits my agenda. It's the same freaking logic, just as crazy and tyrannical.
Lucy seems like such a nice and beautiful person. i wish them all the best❤
boob jobs are arguably gender-affirming care, and have a 65% regret rate. insane how people only care about regret rates when it fits their status quo..
No they’re cosmetic surgery’s, and are performed because of self image and esteem, not identity.
@@cosmo588 if it had nothing to do with gender, then i would see cis men with boob jobs lol. cis people of course also experience gender euphoria through cosmetic reasons
@@kaypoh2589no very true, you’re right. But the emphasis is more on self esteem and attractiveness, not affirmation of one’s gender.
@@cosmo588 everyone has different reasons, and a lot of them overlap. if a cis guy works out to feel 'more like a man', then that would be something thats both cosmetic and gender affirming. our cosmetics tie very strongly into how we identify
They have 65 percentvfoundational regret probably
But you’re conflating foundational regret and clear regret
Clear regret means you learned from the experience
Please do not conflate the two
From one Matt to another, you have an absolutely gorgeous voice and I highly value the work you're doing with A Bit Fruity. You're giving space to people and topics I otherwise would never be exposed to and for that, I thank you.
great discussion. blown away by Lucy's bravery and energy to put herself forward and become a face in the detrans debate. so eloquent and considerate, empethetic, just incredible. thank you so much. also great to hear that "naur" aussie accent.
such a fascinating discussion! you have such a gentle speaking voice, lol. very nice to listen to even-keeled people discuss something like this in a non-sensationalized way
I think that’s so beautiful that the film Everything Everywhere All at Once was the catalyst. Imagine a universe in which X is such a powerful prompt.
Imagine a universe where we were allowed to play with gender, imagine a universe where being trans or de-transitioning wasn’t stigmatised, imagine a universe where boxes aren’t as suffocating as they are here, imagine a universe where it’s not a crime to change your mind. ❤
I detransitioned mtf with grs then back. (Did not request any revisions). People are horribly mean. It's always about what they want and their comfort. Life is now more tolerable but the dsyphoria persists.
Maybe my favourite episode you’ve had thus far. This was super enlightening, to hear from a detransgender person about their experience, thank you for this!!!
I have only started watching you recently, but again you have produced another great video, thank you for your support
This is an incredibly important video. I've shared it with my friends to use in countering transphobia. Matt, I think you're one of the best youtubers out there today, your show is so considered, fun and intelligent.
This is such a good and important conversation, thank you.
"Ollie london can meet me in the pit" she's hilarious
I hope everyone saw his interview debate thing with Ethan Klein. He smacked that empty vessel London into the dirt. Only rhetorically, of course.
Thanks Matt, your generosity and calm presence always allow for a good discussion.
this was so good. your kindness, composure, and compassion are incredible
Much excite!!! ^_^
I stumbled across your channel a few months ago, loved the content, and then was bummed to realize your most recent video was like 2 years old. And then....right on cue, you uploaded your interview with Natalie Wynn. And then another...and another...and then I realized you're back with a legit podcast! Instant fan right here. I love your entire vibe, your voice, and how you communicate with your guests. You're naturally very talented at this. I'm telling all my weirdo friends about you....I know they'll become fans as well. :)
I never medically transitioned but I guess I socially detransitoned, I'm just agender now but I really understand how big the social pressure is
Thank you so much to both of you for talking about this. This conversation is a seed that will grow and spread love to trans, detrans, and cis people alike
Lucy & Matt, what great minds. Fantastic conversation thanks for the great content x
I ❤ Lucy! She’s so cool. I see her on TikTok a lot and she’s super chill. Thank you for the work you’re doing gorgeous!
this is so timely...chloe cole just recently spoke on my college campus. learned a lot from this convo from you and lucy!
We do not the ACTUAL regret rate among minors who go to gender clinics in US, but any *collective* gatekeeping to deal with it is fucked
This is exactly why society’s need to assign strict labels to people is harmful. It’s makes it so hard to evolve or change your mind. I like this guest’s approach: it’s not a there and back again, it’s a there and then there and then there and that’s ok.
I'm trans masc, I've been on T for ten years and have had too surgery. I am very happy with my choices and the thought of ever having to be seen or live as a woman makes me sick to my stomach.
But, i hace also thought about, how would I handle it if one day I did feel like I was a woman?
First, I don't think I would view it as "going back" to being a woman, I never was one. The experience of being a woman would be new, and my experience would probably align more with a trans woman who didn't come close to realizing until after 30.
I wouldn't feel like a cisgender woman. I wouldn't be a trans woman of course but I wouldn't be feel in the way that cis women are, and I think that's kinda cool honestly. I would mean I had to become a man first before becoming a woman.
I like how Lucy phrased it, as being detransgender, as in coming from being trans, and not just detrans. If I ever became a woman it would just be another part of my journey and I don't see ever regretting my choices.
Definitely an interesting and necessary conversation.
The only podcast i listen to with interest all throughout. It is so important
Wow! I didn’t think this video would be that interesting considering how long it is, but I’m glad I decided to watch! I’ve been an instagram follower for a while, and honestly Matt’s eloquence and skill for relaying the information in a well organised way, are the exact same in video format, as what I’m used to seeing on instagram! Also Lucy is awesome too! :)
Thank you for your podcast ♥️ I’m so grateful to be recommended your channel xx
Hi Matt, maybe this is an early release kind of thing, but if not I believe you uploaded the episode in advance without programming a later release
Been loving the pod so so much ❤️
Fantastic interview, Lucy is so thoughtful and well spoken. Thank you to you both!
Thank you for sharing Lucy! And thank you Matt for giving them a platform to share on
What a great topic Matt! Politics constantly overstep. And much like religion, have overstayed their welcome. It’s incredible, the insane mental gymnastics that some people have to do to justify their hate for something they don’t even understand. If only they’d redirect that energy into enjoying and enriching their own lives.
Lovely conversation as always. As a trans woman I'm really happy that Lucy is putting out her voice in this conversation, she definitely has a place in our community!
Your content on IG is the best, so excited to listen in to your podcast as well!
"There is joy in reinvention" is such a beautiful expression of growth! We need to give ourselves space to change and develop, and if we can find happiness in that process it is incredibly freeing.
This is a very necessary pov about de transition thank you for giving this perspective a platform
thank you Lucy for sharing your brilliant insight! "there is joy in reinvention" is so beautiful and true.
Thank you for your compassion Matt. I’m a non binary person and I fully support anyone’s personal gender journey. I know for a fact healthcare needs to be more inclusive and comprehensive, not less. Sending love to everyone out there. I support your journey even if it doesn’t fit in a perfect box.
great video, thanks for putting something out that offers perspective and balanced viewpoints on this issue.
Loved this! Thank you for the work you do and the amazing guests you bring on the show :)