Current Who has become so far removed from what made the classic era or even early nu Who so beloved by fans. In current Who, great storytelling takes a backseat to special effects and injecting politics in mediocre stories. Then RTD attempts to gaslight the audience that what they're watching is the greatest Who ever. Now it's come to ret-conning classic Who with what has been done to "The War Games". My advice to fans is get all your fave stories on DVD. Also, keep up the great work Brendan. 👍
I agree with Physical media - Over the New Year for example I took stock of my BBC Soundtrack collection and realised I didn't have *all* the missing Sixties stories, going online I plugged the gaps, and I felt this was important as in these times there is too great a 'freedom' for the publishers to impose their own ideas and values on this material and 'improve' it for the next commercial release... you see it happening with the DVD Animation releases, some of it is minor, but an edit or alteration from the source material is still an alteration to that material. And I do now recognise the importance of having original Physical media, ideally unedited in content, and representing the material as originally broadcast - as The Celestial Toymaker and Crusades soundtracks.
Thank you Brendan & Cinnamon. Dr Who is not alone in having the source material tampered with. Moffat and Gatiss decided to give Sherlock Holmes a sister and have his parents alive. I am not aware that any of these individuals were ever refetenced by Arthur Conan Doyle in any of the short stories or four novels. What RTD has done, The War Chief being the most recent example, is nothing short of cultural vandalism.
It honestly wouldn’t bother me too much if they erased all of modern WHO. Liked Smith and Capaldi’s era for the most part but a good few of their episodes got a bit silly with the catch phrases and gimmicks .. Recently rewatched a lot of 9 and 10’s era from my DVD collection and they haven’t aged well. Hate the love stories between Doctor and Rose. Can’t stand love sick Martha. Tennant’s performance gets right on my nerves. Came across like a soap opera. It certainly isn’t real Doctor WHO in my head cannon. Real Who is from 1963 till 89.
I think it must be remembered that the Fitzroy Tavern group are also fans who lived through that era when being a fan was a matter of great social shame, it got you bullied and it was something you kept quiet, so that may explain their ambivalence, contradictory attitudes, snide comments about the classic series, hatred and condescension towards the fandom et cetera. You know when RTD was being interviewed by The Guardian about Queer As Folk before he became Dr Who showrunner he denied being a Doctor Who fan but said he had had to research it when he was writing a Doctor Who novel. Why would a non-fan be writing a Doctor Who novel? It was clearly a lie, but it is a lie motivated by shame associated with the fandom.
As an old song use to go "Its hard to get a screw! When you're a fan of Doctor Who" On a serious note its quite funny how attitudes are willing to change at the drop of a hat when a series as eclectic like Doctor Who goes from rags to riches after its supposed fall from grace. I think Christopher Eccleston once brought up that until the 2005 revival was considered a success the BBC were willing to pin the blame on Russell until it defied their expectations of being a relic of a bygone age and then they were all over it in association. And given some of RTD's comments about nerds running the world it can't help but feel disingenuous how he tries to play off his earlier remarks.
I count myself so lucky that I didn't really experience the level of abuse that others did simply for like a t.v. show. With Doctor Who, here in Canada, it was a very fringe show (relegated to public television)... and the bullies didn't know it even existed. So if I wore my 4th Doctor scarf (knitted by my sister) to High School, they'd just think I was weird. They couldn't make the connection to Doctor Who. Which was fine. And even then, most kids (the boys anyway)I grew up with and went through elementary and secondary school with all liked Star Trek and Star Wars... so I'm not sure I'd have caught much flack for liking a different Sci-Fi show. I took more heat for collecting comic books (something I still do - over 50,000 books in my collection now)... but I learned pretty quickly that if you take your passions seriously, 2 things can (and often will) happen: 1) Other people (not the bullies... because they're too cool and are trying to impress their friends or the girls) will ask a bunch of interesting questions. Like they want to understand why I do what I do. That's only gotten more true as I've aged. 2) It'll isolate you even more (people won't want to be seen with you because they don't want that same heat coming down on them) and make you a target for other groups of bullies (thankfully, this reduced quite dramatically once I got out of High School). Bullies are just bullies. They exist to make themselves look good or "cool" at the expense of others. They called me a "nerd" and a "geek" and questioned my manliness... which was very typical of bullying back then even though it lacked imagination. But they don't realize that from my perspective, their passion for sports really just made them a "sports nerd". Same with their obsessions for cars. They'd call themselves "jocks" or "sports fans" or "car enthusiasts" (which is very respectable)... but really, the thing that drives people to be passionate about a sport or sports team or cars, it's really not any different than a person who has a passion for comics or science fiction books/t.v./movies or anything. I guess it's just a shame that that if what you said about the Fitzroy Tavern crowd is true... that they've turned on the old show rather than look at the bullying they received and blaming their tormentors for their actions. The sad truth is... bullying is not something that ends just because you extricate yourself from the people doing it. It stays with you long after it has ended (and the worst part is... they probably don't even remember doing the bullying). Even now, talking about it stirs up bad memories and emotions (and I turn 60 years old in May). And in my view, that lends credence to your theory. Sorry for the rant. Your post just kind of stirred something up in me.
For a writer, Davies' responses to they who dare challenge him on social media seems woefully lacking in nuance; vulgar not only in nature, but also in how little thought is applied, and reflective entirely, of course, of how scant attention he gives to writing even passable Doctor Who. Regardless of Gaiman's guilt or innocence, 'book burning' is never the answer. In exemplifying the wholly undemocratic excess of the 'nanny state' approach, it amounts to nothing but a gross insult to our ability to judge and discern. Davies is intent on distilling fandom into a population of 'modern thinkers', who believe in, and adhere to, the same debauched creed that he does; on such a basis, flooding his stories with agendas and messaging, thereby causing longstanding fans to abandon the current era, is entirely understandable. I genuinely believed Moffat to be pragmatic enough to separate himself from the errors of judgement evinced by Davies and Chibnall, feeling that his ego alone would drive him to take the opportunity to categorically be proven a better writer/showrunner. I can only assume that the virtue signalling to which they lend themselves so irredeemably is satisfying enough that it supersedes the need for them to be viewed positively by the fan majority; a truly sobering thought. Regarding the upcoming episode five of series two, were it not on the back of years of cynical racial overcorrection, I might welcome such an offering for the innovation it could represent. To my mind, said episode will epitomise the current trait of needlessly making certain factions of society prominent, to the detriment of majority representation. Neither should it be forgotten that, when Varada Sethu joins the show, both leads will be people of colour, and the less said about the fugitive Doctor... To quote from a show which, in any era, would never allow itself to be troubled by such considerations, "Down with this sort of thing; careful, now." WOULD that Jinx Monsoon's maestro even vaguely aspired to John de Lancie's 'Q', but I take Brendan's point. I actually liked Q's appearances, they being the better for their infrequency, but agree that in some cases, reliance on the godlike entity trope can be an easy (lazy) option; safe to say that this will prove far more to be the case in series two of today's Doctor Who than ever it did in Star trek: The Next Generation. The idea of Spearhead from Space, as pivotal and essential an episode in the salvation of our show as there can be, getting a big screen showing, to be attended by so many relevant people, is more than enough to offset the largely disgruntled sentiments to have prompted this comment, and I'm smiling uncontrollably at the mere thought. The Sensorites has always been among my least favourites. Hence, in my case, a colourisation may actually make it more endearing; it's the attendant blasphemy that I now believe will likely go with it, however, which is the source of my current aversion. Many thanks, Brendan and Cinnamon. This has been a great, comprehensive discussion, managing to address a large amount of relevant topics. All the best for now. Paul
@@noblerees1 I remain honoured to be asked, and it will definitely happen. I'm currently in the midst of getting the Boro house ready for sale, and just need to plough ahead with that. Late February or early March suggest themselves, but we can always meet up before then. Cheers.
The show is Doctor Who and previous producers promoted Doctor Who. Now the show has become RTD and Company and promotes the producers (apologies to K9 and company)
The creators of classic Dr Who had very little to work with, but by doing the best they could do they produced excellence, because they themselves were excellent individuals. Why are the creators of contemporary Dr. Who still in business if this is the best THEY can produce?
@noblerees1 😃 😀 😄 it's OK..I can talk I make mistakes on camera too 😃 😀 😄 ..perfectionism is a goal that thank heavens is never reached ..who wants to live in a sanitised perfect world 😀
I looked on AmazonUK to see where Doctor Who ranked. Season 1 of Disney Who is ranked 1,392, Season 7 Collection bluray with John Pertwee is ranked 9 and The colourised War Games bluray is ranked 420. Us Doctor Who collectors are loving proper Classic Who and buy loads of it. Far less of us are interested in Disney Who or ruined Classic Who. The sales figures don't lie.
The idiots in charge have turned the show into a clunky messaging machine. They thought everyone would just go along with it. Most fans haven't. There's not enough new fans replacing the fall off in old fans. The show should have universal appeal by not being overtly political but RTD et al. cannot help themselves. It's a shameful destruction of a once great show/brand. Season 2 of Disney Who is going to be a disaster and I am not sure the show can recover from what they have done to it.
They did it with Iceman in the X-Men comics, with the third Robin Tim Drake in the Batman comics and with Superman’s son in the Superman comics. Previously straight characters who were suddenly changed to gay for diversity’s sake, not to mention Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn too.
Fascinating stuff guys. I can’t get through it all cos it’s too long but I thoroughly agree with your comments up to the 50 min point at least. Very balanced & thoughtful. Cinnamon really needs to stop saying “you know” all the damn time. Have a word 😂
Note how RTD uses the word 'fight' yet again. Fighting which leads to greater division. Fighting which is what war is. Fighting which never involves peaceful means. He needs to really take a good hard look at himself and hopefully come to see just how an aggressive and judgemental person he is. He is the ultimate hypocrite.
Current Who has become so far removed from what made the classic era or even early nu Who so beloved by fans. In current Who, great storytelling takes a backseat to special effects and injecting politics in mediocre stories. Then RTD attempts to gaslight the audience that what they're watching is the greatest Who ever. Now it's come to ret-conning classic Who with what has been done to "The War Games". My advice to fans is get all your fave stories on DVD. Also, keep up the great work Brendan. 👍
Thank you for that feedback and support
I agree with Physical media - Over the New Year for example I took stock of my BBC Soundtrack collection and realised I didn't have *all* the missing Sixties stories, going online I plugged the gaps, and I felt this was important as in these times there is too great a 'freedom' for the publishers to impose their own ideas and values on this material and 'improve' it for the next commercial release... you see it happening with the DVD Animation releases, some of it is minor, but an edit or alteration from the source material is still an alteration to that material. And I do now recognise the importance of having original Physical media, ideally unedited in content, and representing the material as originally broadcast - as The Celestial Toymaker and Crusades soundtracks.
“It won’t be like this forever”. Funny - that’s what I say about current Doctor Who.
Well bloody said. Love Laurel and Hardy.
Thank you Brendan & Cinnamon.
Dr Who is not alone in having the source material tampered with. Moffat and Gatiss decided to give Sherlock Holmes a sister and have his parents alive. I am not aware that any of these individuals were ever refetenced by Arthur Conan Doyle in any of the short stories or four novels.
What RTD has done, The War Chief being the most recent example, is nothing short of cultural vandalism.
Very good example - Sherlock
It honestly wouldn’t bother me too much if they erased all of modern WHO. Liked Smith and Capaldi’s era for the most part but a good few of their episodes got a bit silly with the catch phrases and gimmicks .. Recently rewatched a lot of 9 and 10’s era from my DVD collection and they haven’t aged well. Hate the love stories between Doctor and Rose. Can’t stand love sick Martha. Tennant’s performance gets right on my nerves. Came across like a soap opera. It certainly isn’t real Doctor WHO in my head cannon. Real Who is from 1963 till 89.
I think it must be remembered that the Fitzroy Tavern group are also fans who lived through that era when being a fan was a matter of great social shame, it got you bullied and it was something you kept quiet, so that may explain their ambivalence, contradictory attitudes, snide comments about the classic series, hatred and condescension towards the fandom et cetera. You know when RTD was being interviewed by The Guardian about Queer As Folk before he became Dr Who showrunner he denied being a Doctor Who fan but said he had had to research it when he was writing a Doctor Who novel. Why would a non-fan be writing a Doctor Who novel? It was clearly a lie, but it is a lie motivated by shame associated with the fandom.
That is a very fair point
As an old song use to go "Its hard to get a screw! When you're a fan of Doctor Who"
On a serious note its quite funny how attitudes are willing to change at the drop of a hat when a series as eclectic like Doctor Who goes from rags to riches after its supposed fall from grace.
I think Christopher Eccleston once brought up that until the 2005 revival was considered a success the BBC were willing to pin the blame on Russell until it defied their expectations of being a relic of a bygone age and then they were all over it in association.
And given some of RTD's comments about nerds running the world it can't help but feel disingenuous how he tries to play off his earlier remarks.
I count myself so lucky that I didn't really experience the level of abuse that others did simply for like a t.v. show.
With Doctor Who, here in Canada, it was a very fringe show (relegated to public television)... and the bullies didn't know it even existed. So if I wore my 4th Doctor scarf (knitted by my sister) to High School, they'd just think I was weird. They couldn't make the connection to Doctor Who. Which was fine. And even then, most kids (the boys anyway)I grew up with and went through elementary and secondary school with all liked Star Trek and Star Wars... so I'm not sure I'd have caught much flack for liking a different Sci-Fi show.
I took more heat for collecting comic books (something I still do - over 50,000 books in my collection now)... but I learned pretty quickly that if you take your passions seriously, 2 things can (and often will) happen:
1) Other people (not the bullies... because they're too cool and are trying to impress their friends or the girls) will ask a bunch of interesting questions. Like they want to understand why I do what I do. That's only gotten more true as I've aged.
2) It'll isolate you even more (people won't want to be seen with you because they don't want that same heat coming down on them) and make you a target for other groups of bullies (thankfully, this reduced quite dramatically once I got out of High School).
Bullies are just bullies. They exist to make themselves look good or "cool" at the expense of others. They called me a "nerd" and a "geek" and questioned my manliness... which was very typical of bullying back then even though it lacked imagination. But they don't realize that from my perspective, their passion for sports really just made them a "sports nerd". Same with their obsessions for cars. They'd call themselves "jocks" or "sports fans" or "car enthusiasts" (which is very respectable)... but really, the thing that drives people to be passionate about a sport or sports team or cars, it's really not any different than a person who has a passion for comics or science fiction books/t.v./movies or anything.
I guess it's just a shame that that if what you said about the Fitzroy Tavern crowd is true... that they've turned on the old show rather than look at the bullying they received and blaming their tormentors for their actions. The sad truth is... bullying is not something that ends just because you extricate yourself from the people doing it. It stays with you long after it has ended (and the worst part is... they probably don't even remember doing the bullying). Even now, talking about it stirs up bad memories and emotions (and I turn 60 years old in May). And in my view, that lends credence to your theory.
Sorry for the rant. Your post just kind of stirred something up in me.
@@davidharding1299 Malice is full circle so it seems.
The Fitzroy Tavern group are derided by fans now for being talentless hacks who are ruining Doctor Who.
For a writer, Davies' responses to they who dare challenge him on social media seems woefully lacking in nuance; vulgar not only in nature, but also in how little thought is applied, and reflective entirely, of course, of how scant attention he gives to writing even passable Doctor Who.
Regardless of Gaiman's guilt or innocence, 'book burning' is never the answer. In exemplifying the wholly undemocratic excess of the 'nanny state' approach, it amounts to nothing but a gross insult to our ability to judge and discern.
Davies is intent on distilling fandom into a population of 'modern thinkers', who believe in, and adhere to, the same debauched creed that he does; on such a basis, flooding his stories with agendas and messaging, thereby causing longstanding fans to abandon the current era, is entirely understandable.
I genuinely believed Moffat to be pragmatic enough to separate himself from the errors of judgement evinced by Davies and Chibnall, feeling that his ego alone would drive him to take the opportunity to categorically be proven a better writer/showrunner. I can only assume that the virtue signalling to which they lend themselves so irredeemably is satisfying enough that it supersedes the need for them to be viewed positively by the fan majority; a truly sobering thought.
Regarding the upcoming episode five of series two, were it not on the back of years of cynical racial overcorrection, I might welcome such an offering for the innovation it could represent. To my mind, said episode will epitomise the current trait of needlessly making certain factions of society prominent, to the detriment of majority representation. Neither should it be forgotten that, when Varada Sethu joins the show, both leads will be people of colour, and the less said about the fugitive Doctor...
To quote from a show which, in any era, would never allow itself to be troubled by such considerations, "Down with this sort of thing; careful, now."
WOULD that Jinx Monsoon's maestro even vaguely aspired to John de Lancie's 'Q', but I take Brendan's point. I actually liked Q's appearances, they being the better for their infrequency, but agree that in some cases, reliance on the godlike entity trope can be an easy (lazy) option; safe to say that this will prove far more to be the case in series two of today's Doctor Who than ever it did in Star trek: The Next Generation.
The idea of Spearhead from Space, as pivotal and essential an episode in the salvation of our show as there can be, getting a big screen showing, to be attended by so many relevant people, is more than enough to offset the largely disgruntled sentiments to have prompted this comment, and I'm smiling uncontrollably at the mere thought.
The Sensorites has always been among my least favourites. Hence, in my case, a colourisation may actually make it more endearing; it's the attendant blasphemy that I now believe will likely go with it, however, which is the source of my current aversion.
Many thanks, Brendan and Cinnamon. This has been a great, comprehensive discussion, managing to address a large amount of relevant topics. All the best for now.
Paul
It is surely time for you to appear on sense sphere
@@noblerees1 I remain honoured to be asked, and it will definitely happen.
I'm currently in the midst of getting the Boro house ready for sale, and just need to plough ahead with that. Late February or early March suggest themselves, but we can always meet up before then. Cheers.
Maybe he's too busy fretting over whether to use 'and' or 'but' in response to his social media criticism.
Excellent episode
Thank you
The show is Doctor Who and previous producers promoted Doctor Who. Now the show has become RTD and Company and promotes the producers (apologies to K9 and company)
The creators of classic Dr Who had very little to work with, but by doing the best they could do they produced excellence, because they themselves were excellent individuals.
Why are the creators of contemporary Dr. Who still in business if this is the best THEY can produce?
That colourised pic at beginning of show wernt tomb of the cybermen man it wert wheel int space 😅😂😊❤😂😅😊😊😊
I talk too much. Yes of course
@noblerees1 😃 😀 😄 it's OK..I can talk I make mistakes on camera too 😃 😀 😄 ..perfectionism is a goal that thank heavens is never reached ..who wants to live in a sanitised perfect world 😀
I looked on AmazonUK to see where Doctor Who ranked. Season 1 of Disney Who is ranked 1,392, Season 7 Collection bluray with John Pertwee is ranked 9 and The colourised War Games bluray is ranked 420. Us Doctor Who collectors are loving proper Classic Who and buy loads of it. Far less of us are interested in Disney Who or ruined Classic Who. The sales figures don't lie.
The idiots in charge have turned the show into a clunky messaging machine. They thought everyone would just go along with it. Most fans haven't. There's not enough new fans replacing the fall off in old fans. The show should have universal appeal by not being overtly political but RTD et al. cannot help themselves. It's a shameful destruction of a once great show/brand. Season 2 of Disney Who is going to be a disaster and I am not sure the show can recover from what they have done to it.
Season “2” is going to be more excessive than the prior season. Much more queer-centric and more human Doctor.
In what other profession could you commit sexual assault and still get money and a free pass? You couldn’t as a teacher, why should you as an actor?
We just don’t want to discuss details as serious issues and crimes should be the exclusive domain of the justice system
@@noblerees1 And yet now we have trial by Twitter, everything gets aired out in public sadly.
I didn't know this was happening - so I missed it.
I am addicted currently
The problem is someone continuing to get royalties for their work after their abusing behaviour.
I agree the royalties issue is a problem
That needs addressing
Have you read Patrick Troughton's biography...? He was no Saint either. So what would be your threshold here given your Puritanical streak?
I’m not going to join the Leopards eating people’s faces party. That’s just taking a shit on your own doorstep.
Do join me for a chat - just me and you
Five miles deep is a worrying title where Ncunti’s involved.
There are a lot of fans who have been driven away from social media because of the alphabet brigade spreading hate. So much for inclusion.
They did it with Iceman in the X-Men comics, with the third Robin Tim Drake in the Batman comics and with Superman’s son in the Superman comics. Previously straight characters who were suddenly changed to gay for diversity’s sake, not to mention Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn too.
Fascinating stuff guys. I can’t get through it all cos it’s too long but I thoroughly agree with your comments up to the 50 min point at least. Very balanced & thoughtful. Cinnamon really needs to stop saying “you know” all the damn time. Have a word 😂
Yes the show was planned to be about an hour but it livened up and the thread was very engaged so it went on
He's not a professional presenter settle down.
It’s like Doctors sprouting out of other Doctor’s groins - it ruins it. 😅
Just make The Timeless Child a lie by the Master and have her be the Rani.
And new blood has to not be Turdy Davies yes men!
Note how RTD uses the word 'fight' yet again. Fighting which leads to greater division. Fighting which is what war is. Fighting which never involves peaceful means. He needs to really take a good hard look at himself and hopefully come to see just how an aggressive and judgemental person he is. He is the ultimate hypocrite.
Nobody cares who Mrs Flood is apart from Brian May.
Just ban modern Who.