MY CAYMAN 987 HAS BORE SCORE | What are the symptoms , sound and repair cost?
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- My Porsche Cayman 987 has Bore Score in this video i will cover what the signs, sound and symptoms of this engine failure is and the cost to go and fix it. I have owned my Porsche Cayman 987 S 3.4 for a year now and over the past 4 months things have not been good. Bore Score is one of the worst things that can happen to a Porsche, it affects 911 996 and 997, Cayman 987 and even the Boxster 986 and 987.
My Cayman S seems to be so popular on my channel, the comment section went a little crazy last time I did a video and I thought I needed to update you on what my plans are now I have read them and where I am going to take the channel.
Those of you who follow the channel regularly will know I have owned my Porsche Cayman 987 gen 1 for around a year and have had no issues with it so far but over the last few weeks if has developed some less than ideal symptoms that most Porsche owners would run for the hills upon hearing.
I have always said I wanted to bring these videos to youtube to document my ownership experience of my porsche cayman s and bring you along with me for any modifications, upgrades, repairs and anything that comes with owning a 987.1 Porsche. This could not be any more true today as I am sharing with you the first in a series of videos about this latest engine issue and what i am going to do to first, investigate it and second how I am going to overcome the problem. If you own a Porsche, a porsche cayman or looking to buy one then please be sure to hit that subscribe button and follow this new series of videos as I am sure you will find it helpfull in some way.
If you are a regular viewer of this channel, thank you so much for coming back time and time again and helping the channel grow at a rate I could never have imagined. If you are new here then welcome to my channel. If it is Porsche Cayman that you are interested in please see below some links that will take you to some videos I have done that you will find interesting.
For a full review on my Porsche Cayman 987 S click here www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJAMj...
For 5 things I love and 5 things I hate about my 987.1 click here www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4gzn...
For potential buyers click here to see my most popular video the Porsche Cayman 987.1 buyers guide. www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTcqK...
This channel is heavily centred around my Cayman S but I do have another car which I have featured please see below for links to videos on that.
For a review on my VW Golf GTI Mk6 click here www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YJvh...
For 5 things I love and 5 things I hate about my Golf GTI Mk6 click here www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkhaS...
As I have said this channel is heavily centred around my Porsche Cayman S 987.1 but I am always on the lookout for cars to test, review, race and modify so if you have any suggestions then please drop a comment in below.
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Thanks for watching
Joe 😊
Thanks for making this video in the honest format. I am looking at 987s as they were always my dream car and now that I can afford to pick up a weekend car this is my number one choice. I am trying to go into it as educated as possible so I can hopefully avoid as many issues as possible. I feel the same way about it as you do; when I do get one and it (hopefully does not) exhibits these issues I will get it repaired as I will want to keep the car forever as it is one of the most beautiful sports cars ever made.
Superb video mate thank you and keep up the good work!
Thank you! Should get better from now on as the build is starting soon!
i subscribed, i am very interested to follow this journey. good decision imo, you'll have a better car at the end of it.
I really will:) glad everyone is looking forward to the content! I have to say I am excited to share it(not pay for it tho) thanks for subscribing!
A great series Joe with lots of helpful tips 👌🏻
Thank you! Really appreciate that!
I know it's likely not much comfort, but I wanted to thank you for this video. It prompted me to concentrate on a 987.2 car in my search and I found a terrific one... without bore-scoring or IMS bearing issues to worry about... ever.
No its good to hear stuff like this. The channel was formed around this. Buying a Porsche more or less on a whim and seeing what happens. Saves people the hassle. Instead they can watch me make the mistake haha
@@JoeTalksCars You're a good man, Joe.
The 997 gen 2 can also suffer bore scoring...
2007 987 S 476,000 miles, flash the chip, headers, lightweight flywheel, gt3 manifold, Bilstein R9 shocks... Bought from Brumos in Jax... With 42k on the odo. 9:26 On quart oil always mobil one or other synthetic 5w40... It's awesome. Shop looked a cylinders.. Said they're ok. CHG oil every 5-6,000 miles... Best car ever. Also machined aluminum Short throw shifter w sport clutch... Every on ramp is like being at Sebring... IMS is only a 1% issue. Oil CHG is crucial... Will do a video at 500,000 miles... 😊
2 years later but i am sorry this happened to you and that you got it resolved!
great to see your attitude and not being defeated by it, I have one also and its a great car so I think your making the right choice. Would be good if you did something on the best things to avoid this happening
Thanks:) yeah it is for the best! It will be such a great car after it’s done :) I will do that’s a great idea! Will be having a chat in the garage about it and what they suggest and will share my findings. There must be some things to do to minimise the risk of it occurring.
Sorry to hear that your having this trouble, I had heard the 3.4 had this problem so I bought the 2.7, no issues in two years of ownership 🤞🏻
Yeah I think in hindsight I would have just gone for the 2.7. This car is a headache but once it is rebuild I am sure I will not regret it!
@@JoeTalksCars Don't be disheartened, it's just bad luck, it could happen to anyone. I have a 2006 Cayman S and it has 105k miles on it and it runs exceptionally with no problems. Once it is repaired it will repay you with many years of exciting driving.
@@bf5175 wow! That’s incredible! It shows that they can be ok from time to time 🤣 can’t wait for mine to be back
Sorry to hear the news. Looking forward to hearing about your rebuild. It IS an awesome car. Now you will have an engine that will last you 20+ years to enjoy.
That’s the plan! Got so much I want to do, hoping the bill isn’t so huge. Save some for an exhaust 😉
There is always a gundo to give you some sound at an inexpensive price. Then you have time to figure out exhaust which won't be cheap. Good luck!
@@JoeTalksCars I emailed Capristo last week to see how much a full exhaust system would be for my 2.7 987.1, just for a laugh: £4650! Errr I don’t think so.
Nah thats a joke, custom made route for me. Far cheaper under £1000.
@@JoeTalksCars Yes I’m thinking the same, or maybe Milltek or Dansk. I’m worried about the exhaust header bolts, I’m sure they haven’t been removed for 14 years and they might shear. I give them a good spray with WD40 whenever I’m under there, don’t see as it can do any harm.
thanks for the info joe
Thanks:) just hope it helps a few avoid a similar fate.
Good honest video and great information, would you have any info on the IMS problem.
So the IMS problem only affects earlier cars I believe, certainly early boxsters. I had mine done when the rebuild was done. Made sense as the part isn’t that expensive.
@@JoeTalksCarsthanks for info 👍
Q&A rebuild. Are you sticking with OEM or jumping to larger displacement?
Nice honest approach. My Cayman S smokes like a chimney on cold start on a cold day ONLY and clears within minutes so not AOS. She doesn't burn any oil at all. So I think I have a "normal Porsche" :D I check the oil level every start, and the car is only driven once or twice a week. My plan is, if I ever have major engine trouble such as bore scoring or IMS, I'll make lemonade by way of a 911 Turbo engine swap ;)
I never see or hear of anyone doing a 911 turbo swap in these. Can it be done 🤔
👀👀
@@joek1302 I'm sure it can be done. But here I am a year later and still no bore scoring. But if/when it happens, my revised approach (after some research) would actually to be to have it bored out to a 3.8, re-cleaved, and possible hdd a turbo kit.
So pleased you are making this car right. I doubt you will have any regrets down the road. I would be curious if due to the car burning such an amount of oil for such a period how the catalytic are holding up or if they have become clogged and non functional.
Yeah I think you are right, It is going to be amazing to know its all as new, like it left the factory fresh. Yeah I am worried about the cats to be honest but it passed an MOT recently so it should be ok.
I would like to ask if you have more soot in one of the exhaust pipe, or nothing at all.
Do you think it is better to pay more to get base 987.2 with bore scoring problem is much less than 3.4 lit engine?
Fantastic review thx really interesting. I suspect its more widespread than we Porsche owners realise.
Thank you! Yeah for sure it will affect way more cars that previously thought.
Look forward to watching, thinking of selling mine and getting a 997.2 with no engine issues but also watching a 996 hartech 3.9 build to see what his end results are
3.9 😊 that sounds lovely!!
987.2 would be nice especially PDK
I realize this is a couple years after the video was posted, but i can certainly hear the tapping. I have a 3.4 that was just diagnosed with scoring by a scope (and reputable shop), but I've owned a couple Cayennes with severe scoring and they are much louder. I can hear yours at a lower amplitude
Just went out and started my Porsche and it does not have any odd noises or smoke at all, nothing so I am so happy mine is running perfect. I heard that this is a problem with people that live in the colder climates, since I am in Texas I should be good to go but is something I will have to keep an eye on.
I just wonder if there is a way to prevent it from happening in the first place? I change my oil every 3000 miles and use only the best synthetic oil for my cars, yah I may spend a lot in oil but I like to keep my motors in top shape. I also do not hot rod mine or at least very very very little, I have yet to ever hit red line, actually stay over 2k under it.
Hey Joe, loved the video. I'm really getting into this info about the Cayman in case I decide to pull the plunge on one down the road, and I have a question: once this "gets done", is it possible for it to happen again? Or is it a factory failure that once fixed it's ok? Just to know in case a full service history includes this, is it correct to assume that's a "safe car" regarding this issue? Or it's always going to happen every once in a while? Thanks a lot!
Hi, good luck with the hunt for yours, as far as I know once its fixed its fixed but then again who honestly knows. This car had a full Porsche service history and it never helped the poor thing, that doesn't seem to come into it. I am sure its a flaw from factory that it either has or doesn't. Some high milage cars may be the safer options.
Hi it can happen again but will take many many years - its just an unnecessary cylinder design, which is why it was scrapped so quickly. The key is to ensure the coolant is always topped up, make sure there are no coolant leaks and the water pump is in tidy condition. The coolant surrounds the cylinders in this design. Finally I would always use premium quality 0w-40 oil
Thank You big time. I am in the market for a Cayman or a 911. Never heard of this problem. I am new to the Porsche world. Just started doing my research on problems with Porsches. Purchased one used car without an inspection years ago. It came back and bit me in the butt. I will never ever purchase another car with the prepurchase inspection. You live and you learn. We all make mistakes.
Yeah they are problematic if you don’t get them checked out! I don’t regret the car but I do regret not having it checked out first. Would have been a better buy to get a newer one with warranty instead.
@@JoeTalksCars I almost purchased a used one with 10K miles on it right before Covid hit. The dealer was asking 56k for the Cayman S. And it was a CPO car. I was nervous about spending that type of money When I finally decided to purchase the Cayman someone beat me to it You live, and you learn. It was black on black just plain gorgeous. Now they have gone up in value due to Covid etc.
I was petrified of bore scoring when I bought my 996. Paid a Porsche shop to borescope the cylinders pre purchase. There is lots on information on bore score. You should have done the same. But, you’ll end up with a sweet cayman with a rebuilt engine. 👍
Yeah in hindsight I should have done more in depth look. Shame really. But we live and learn. The cars lives on and it’s running amazingly:)
Hi Joe Good luck with the rebuild, is the issue also on the boxster 3.4, any idea on mileage these issues start to appear, for your QA session
Thank you:) it all went well in the end but was quite expensive! Good question for the long overdue q&a. Thanks 🙏
Question for the q and a - what made you decide that ‘now’ was the time to get it fixed? How long can you reasonably run it for once the smoke starts? What’s the worst that can happen if you just keep running it? How many miles did you cover in the year leading up to this?
amazing questions! Thank you
I’d love to know the answers.
@@trevorgarrett7602 I need to get that video done
you cannot check it, you will just suddenly notice oil burn
it will increase
and increase
and at some point you'lll realize you add oil as much as fuel..
There really is no way to check it when just checking a car out, unless you pull all the plugs and get a good scope in there.
Hi joe think you just been unlucky one of them things can happen to anyone still a pissa though but looking forward to rebuild as matter of interest since your getting rebuild renewing any other engine bits since engines out ? Looking forward seeing the rebuild 👍👍
Love that saying pissa! Use it all the time!
Not sure what else is getting done so will have to wait and see but anything that isn't good will be getting swapped. I have heard brake pipes are an engine out job so will have those done. I guess it is going to mount up quickly so need to be realistic with what I do.
987s are great cars, have owned one for about 3 years now. One reason to get the base over the S model though is that it can't get bore scoring. The scoring results from a spray-on coating inside the cylinders that was only done on a few models from this era, and the 987.1 Cayman S is one of them.
Yeah I suffered that fate. Mines been redone now tho. New liners and running great.
if one really wants to hear deep interior engine noises and doesn't want to crawl around under the car with a stethoscope around their neck to find them, just remove the oil filler cap and start 'er up. the amount of noise that comes out of that hole is remarkable! (...yours truly left the cap off accidentally)
i imagine a lot of information is held within those noises and an aficionado could diagnose a lot of engine problems using those noises alone.
and BTW, second guessing another's pre-purchase examination of car by suggesting that they have a professional examination is often not realistic. there are time and logistical constraints on the purchaser that might make such an examination impossible not to mention that most owners will not let their cars have an intrusive examination be done on it by an amateur or even a professional garage with which they are not familiar. i know i wouldn't.
i think once all is said and done, you'll have about as much in that car as recently i paid for my 30,000 mile 2007 base model. and i won't have the satisfaction of knowing i have a recently rebuilt engine.
Yeah I could look a little crazy 😂 it may be making noises but to me it sounds fine:) yeah that it, what garage is going to seriously let you take a car they have for sale to bits to check. Not gonna happen. It is one of those things, we live and learn and in the end pay for it. Can’t wait to get it fixed :)
Mine has the same smoke, oil consumption and when it’s warmed it makes a slightly odd noise on the drivers side 😄 I wouldn’t say tapping but it’s definitely not the same as when it’s cold
The tapping started on mine in the end! My god it was loud! Wish I caught it on film, genuinely sounded like somebody tapping with a hammer on metal!
Very sorry to hear your unfortunate and expensive news. Given that the 987.1 3.4 engines are well known to suffer BS with up to. 10% failure rate, did you not consider getting the bores scoped at purchase? Not sure who you asked about the smoking issue but fit, water cooled 911s don’t all smoke! Smoking exhausts, oil loss and eventually (at the end) are all classic symptoms. I have bought many used cars over the past 20 years and while I am reasonably proficient with used car buying, I paid for an independent Porsche specialist to give it a full pre purchase inspection. It was the best £350 I have ever spent.
The good news for you is that IF you can get it fixed properly with new liners for about £6k, you should get most of that money back come resale. Most scoring and IMS failures (on the M96 engines) usually result in a circa £10k bill!
Hi Joe, nice vid and I hope you’ve gotten your car fixed by now? Myself, I’m crazy about the 718, a really good car. Another thing is the song you’ve got playing here, such a great tune. Would you tell me the name of it please? Thank you and good luck wit your car. Greetings, Mike, KC!
So it was so long ago I honestly can’t remember the tune. However if you use Shazam it will pick it up and name it for you.
Oil consumption is usually measured in quarts or liters per 1000 miles. I am not sure how much guzzling is. When your first purchase a vehicle it is wise to check the oil frequently until you understand the consumption.
I did and the car used barely anything for the first 4 or 5 months then all of a sudden was guzzling. Didn’t know at the time it was scored but we all know what happened next 🤣
I would drive it... Keep an eye out for progressive problems, take oil samples when oil changed. Don't beat it, drive it knowing that you will be replacing cylinders in the future.
It has already come to that. I did carry on driving and to be fair it was fine for a good few miles. In the garage now for a rebuild.
Thats pretty much why i got myself a 987.2 2.9, sure i don't have the power of the 3.4. But the engine is bulletproof, goodluck mate. There are multiple mods that can reduce the chance on Bore scoring by alot. If you get it fixed take a look at those.
Yeah I’ve heard the different thermostat is one. Il have a look as to the mods. Can’t be having this again. Especially not after fixing it!
What are the mods that would help with this potential problem?
Ouch I feel for you, I think I’ll go for the 2nd generation engine now
Yeah probably worth the extra for peace of mind. The Gen1 looks prettier tho 👍
Sorry for your issues! Have you seen Jake Raby on UA-cam? He has a full series on Bore Scoring. What cylinder lining are you going to use as replacement? He repairs motors from around the world.
Thanks Bill
I have a 1997, 986 and 2006 997.1 C2S.
Hi Bill, I have watched them, fantastic videos. I am going for steel liners, Hartech and many others will shout at me for that but logically they can only be better than standard. Only time will tell. Strasse who are building it are well known for their expertise so I know it is in good hands. You have some lovely cars, have you had any bore score related issues?
@@JoeTalksCars No Bore scoring, 986 in early years don't have that problem. My 997.1 I won in a contest that the FLAT6CLUB had. Drove it from SanDiego to MN, no oil consumption, no carbon deposits in tail pipe, no engine noise. It has 73,600 miles, I had engine oil sent to Speediagnostic and results were all in the Green. My first oil change it had Mobile one in it, changed to Driven DT40, plan on changing oil according to Jake Rabys recommended 6 months or 5000 miles irregardless of mileage. Taking a long trip soon should be fun!
Jake Raby would fix your car better than original, never have to worry about it. As you know does not recommend steel liners.
Good luck
Bill
@@wildbillcarroll ah that’s good then! You won the 997🥳 that’s amazing! Yeah I know he doesn’t recommend as a lot don’t but it doesn’t make a lot of sense. They have to be an improvement over standard. You are right tho, oil changes at 5000 or 6 months is definitely something I want to do as I can’t have this happen again.
My car is a Porsche cayman s 2005 , when it’s stationery and just idling I have started noticing a whirring sound , similar to a fan sound knocking against something , a mild blowing sound ?
Tbf mine sounds a little lumpy sometimes, I am hyper aware of any random grumbling from the car now tho. Trust me if it was bore score knocking you would know. Sounds like someone trying to get out using a hammer.
I think I'll stick with my 986 2.7 as no smoke or oil consumption. I think more problems occured with the 3.4 in the 987?
Love that buying philosophy
😂 man maths
@@JoeTalksCars the best maths you can get
If you like the car the money on the engine dose not come in to pay mate great car and good video
Yeah that’s it. It’s a bargain when you think how much I enjoy this car.
Hello! Did you observe any unusual sooting around the exhaust due to the oil burning?
It was a little sooty but not any worse than others. It’s still sooty now.
Hi My car has a loud tapping sound during cold and even when its driven for a long time.... I was afraid that it is bore scoring. But some youtube suggest its the lifter ... what is your opinion?
I saw that a lot online about lifters but I think it was a lot of people trying to convince themselves it was so simple. The best way to find out is a bore scope. Just watch that oil consumption, mine uses nothing now but was burning 1 litre every 200 miles or less. Crazy amounts.
i get a puff of blue smoke on cold start. it ended up being the AOS. replaced that and now i get no smoke on startup.
I did the AOS most do that when they think they have bore score. Unfortunately for some like me, it doesn’t help as the problem is way way bigger.
How many miles or KM are on the engine? I own the same model (in Guards Red) but got PPI's done on multiple cars before finding this one at my local Porsche dealer. PPI's on any Porsche are expensive, about $350 each here in the states but the I saved thousands, or even tens of thousands, on the cars I passed on due to the PPI and what it revealed that the sellers were either unaware of or covering up. Best of luck.
This has 59,000 miles so not a lot before the problem appeared. Sometimes the higher mileage cars are the ones to have! I should have had mine more closely looked at:(
I hope the car is fixed and the situation is now behind you.
😊
In essence,should I presume that some mod has been done in order to avoid such an issue to come about again ? I mean,we can have a full engine rebuild done with the same problem likely to occur again due to the original engineering weakness from the factory or,possibly is there a way "to prevent" the issue from coming about again with proper mods while the rebuild is in progress ? Thanks for any thought about my question.
So the car has had steel liners with a top hat design meaning they can not move, it’s hard to say if it will or won’t happen again. There is so many theories on what causes it and none or proven. The garage that did this have built 1000s and never had an issue, they also have a small race team and all the cars have this rebuild. I got so much hate for not using Hartech but I can’t help but feel that they do so much scaremongering online they force people’s hand. I trust Strasse where mine was built and hope for many many more years of driving.
@@JoeTalksCars
Interesting infos...A noticeable point stands in these guys using the same specifications or technique on their racing engines. Thanks for your answer.
I had pretty aggressive tapping in my 996 once it warmed up. It was more of a "whack" lol
Did that turn out to be anything bad?
@@JoeTalksCars Oh yeah, it was pretty severe bore scoring. I was going through quite a lot of oil by the end of it. The car wasn't worth saving unfortunately.
I'm now in a 987.1 Cayman 2.7 with less than half the miles, so hoping for no bore scoring this time around.
The key is to scope from the sump where it starts not the plugs.
Yeah I feel that is exactly what happened when I bought it, took a year for it to travel up. I suppose once its going it goes quick.
Have you found out what caused your bore scoring? Which oil were you using? Change interval?
Nah I think a combination of 2 year intervals, short trips, lack of use, 0 grade oil but I am guessing. I guess il never know .
Hi joe, who are you taking your car too to get rebuilt? I’m looking into buying a cayman S gen 1 as the gen 2 difference is huge in price, and if it’s 5-6k for a rebuild it’s still worth taking the risk IMO
Hi Lee, The difference is huge isn't it. Gen 1 can be had for 12-15 and gen 2 is 25-30. I had this dilemma so decided to rebuild. It is heading to Strasse in Leeds and will be fitted with steel liners. The price quoted is between 5.5k and 6k so unless anything horrible pops up it seems good value. I will of course be sharing the full cost so that should help.
Good choice steel liners.
Would a 987. 2 / 981 3.4S engine fit? If so what about fitting a a secondhand MA1.21 non IMS engine ??
I did look into that. They are quite a lot. It found one for about 5k so not a lot in it. Plus I swapped an engine in my last car and it was such a headache. Good thought tho, I’m now on eBay looking 🤣
@@JoeTalksCars Research needed on would your gearbox would be ok with the tad more 320 bhp power and Direct Fuel Injection different high pressure fuel pump needed with the ECU to. So it would all really mount up. Guess not best option unless a project.
@@xplane7523 yeah it’s certainly an interesting thought. If the block is compatible with the box which I’m not sure it would be the Tiptronic box can take loads as it’s the same box in the Mercedes SLR. PDK conversion could be interesting and unique. But costly 😂
You mentioned the engine was consuming copious amounts of oil. Did you ever get a low oil level warning to alert you it was using a lot of oil?
No and I was told they do show a low oil warning! This one didn’t! I once put 2L of oil in to stop the bottom segment flashing! I was told they make a beep and show a warning.
The first puff of smoke seemed a bit blue but the rest looked white from the footage. It's hard to tell really. What mileage has your car done? I heard once they get 100 - 130k miles it would practically impossible to happen.
Yeah it is hard to tell. It goes white but even then it has a blue hue and an oily smell. You should see it when I drive off 😝 yeah I’ve heard that. It’s the low mileage stuff like this that go.
Full synthetic oil burns mostly white
Is it true that after a certain mileage it does not happen anymore? I am looking into a high mileage 987.1 s (115k), but can also go for a 987.2 base with 120k miles. Really interested in a response, thanks!
I had a 3.4 996 years ago, the bore scoring noise was only there once the engine had warmed up fully, oil pressure has dropped, and at idle. Any rev of the engine and the oil pressure would go up and noise stop. No loss of power, but it was more of a ‘clanking’ noise, quite a metallic ticking. Also it would start a bit rough, backfire or pop sometimes when starting.
Mine had all those symptoms just before the rebuild. Poor thing sounded like it was going to die.
Q&A: did you recoat the pistons during rebuild? did you replace the cylinders with iron, nikasils or alusil type of sleeve?
So they were all sleeved with new steel liners. Controversial I know but 2 years on it’s perfect still
Glad it’s now running mint joe , I live in castleford and I’m researching before purchasing a cayman / boxter will strasse be my go to specialists or are there others I should consider. Also is the 987.2 base less likely to score , or is oil management the key to any boxter engine.
@@user-xl1kw7qu3e oil management will definitely reduce the risk. Lower displacement engine 2.7l will also have a lower risk of borescoring due to lower piston weight, thus lower piston skirt to cylinder wall contact. The 987.2 has improved the coating of the piston skirts so it is less likely to develop it. MA9A1 engines have also closed deck design that reduce the risk of cylinder ovality that develops over time. Also I saw that M9A1 engine also has oil jets at the bottom of the cylinder that really improves lubrication.
When you see blue smoke coming out first change your AOS that will saved you lot of headaches
Yeah I did this, if only that was the problem and not bore score on all one bank. haah
You should see the blue smoke it's big brother 3.8 can put out on form number 4/6
Yeah turns out blue smoke is bad bad news
Great video chap, from your video I would say it's very early stages of BS... The worse it gets you do get the noise you mention.... On the cayman it should be heard from the passenger side as engine is reverse orientation to 911 which I know you will hear from driver side..... In your instance I would have dropped a lower temp stat and ensured my front rads were very clear or renew...... Overhaul is the best but no harm in delaying the spend if you can..
That’s :) the video is old but glad it’s still getting the views. Hoping it helps someone. The saga of mine went on 🤣
Put 5 - 6 grand into it and keep it long enough you’ll likely get it back anyway. Main thing though is to drive and enjoy and let others enjoy it as well 👍
I have a base 2007 Cayman with a TPC turbo/intercooler and it runs like the dickens! I get to spank every 997S I see and every M3, except the very newest models. My car is the best car in the world, because it’s right in in the sweet spot of very powerful, but not so powerful where you can’t enjoy it on the expressways.
Wow that’s mad! Must be pushing some serious power!! I don’t doubt the chassis can take more! Easily handle 400-450 without issue.
Tell us more
Joe, you didn't mention the carbon build up on your exhaust tips.
Repair cheaper than I thought it would be. Gives me hope if my 997.1 starts playing up.
How many miles yours done?
Andy Chester.
Yeah it’s got loads:( lots on the bumper too. Probably more on a 911. There is more than likely 911 Tax added 😂😂😂
What was the rationale for keeping the car, paying for the rebuild rather than selling and using the money to buy a gen 2?..fwiw, I have 2008 3.4S with just under 40k miles..
It all came down to cost and knowing the car. This car only has 52k on it and has had lots of work done, suspension, brakes and I know the car is rock solid other than the obviously knackered engine,. The cost of the build is £5.5-6k so adding the cost of the car to that I am only £20k in and for a rebuild car thats pretty good value. A gen 2 would be £25-30k at the current values.
@@JoeTalksCars makes total sense , its a nice looking car.
My dad's (lot's of miles). Smokes like a two stroke when it's cold. Mine on the hand...not so much. Definitely not clean burning when cold though.
P.S. don't feel duped. You got an good car for a good price. Millions of cars get sold and bought with known and unknown conditions. It's the chess game of buying and selling. So you're making a good car an awesome car. If you have the flow, then it's better than it ending up in salvage lot to be parted out or a garage left to die...
Yep I feel that I rescued this one from ultimately being scrapped. Not everyone would have done this. Glad I have, love the car to bits.
Was the bore scoring issue solved with the 987.2 cars, true/false?
True but having said that. One of the owners of Strasse Porsche Specialist commented saying they had a 997.2 which scored bores. So they are way less common to go but still a risk.
Video about resleeving to fix bore scoring?
Yup the car then had just that. 6 new pistons
go by the intake on the drivers side to listen
Yeah I heard it in the end! It was the day it went to the garage to be fixed 🤓
I'm surprised a total engine rebuild is only 4 to 5 grand in England. Im from Canada and a rebuild for a Cayman is around $25+ k.
Me too but then I got the bill, Video live soon of the actual cost!
Might be worth to drive to England
Just got a full rebuild on my 996 $25k. You know the old saying “got to pay to play”
£5,000 to £6,000 is quite cheap to fix bore scoring. Did they redo the bores with aluminium sleeves and a Nikasil rather than Lokasil bore coating or did they just re-sleeve with steel liners? If steel liners then you are possibly looking at another engine rebuild in 10k to 20k miles time. My 987.1 3.4S Boxster had previously suffered bore scoring and been rebuilt with steel liners before I bought it. It took less than 10k miles before the liners moved and let coolant into the cylinders. The engine was then rebuilt properly by Hartech in Bolton, UK with Nikasil liners. Cost was closer to £10k though.
So the car eventually cost around 10 due to more parts needed. Each of the cylinders has been done. They have been done with steel liners but have a top hat design so can’t slip. The garage assured me that race cars they rebuilt are going fine after 1000s of miles on track. I guess only time will tell.
Is there anything you can do to stop bore scoring either before or once rebuild done?
I am not entirely sure, I think it is a combination of things. Avoiding short trips, letting the oil warm before thrashing, servicing every year not every 2 like Porsche say, using thicker oil and probably loads of other things. I think I have been unlucky with this one. I am not sure how common this really is still.
@@JoeTalksCars yeah just interested to know as always wanted a porsche and said when I sell my skyline I'd like one but always thought they would be way out of budget then come across cayman and love the way they sound handling ect but do worry about issues like this
@@james87fry yeah it’s a huge worry. I’d go for 2.7 base manual or if you can a 2.9 gen 2. The 3.4 is crazy good and sounds insane but I feel a rebuild needs to be factored in to running one.
@@JoeTalksCars well I want the most power I can get as I'd certainly not want it to feel slower than my skyline lol and I'd definitely go manually as want to have it as something to go on a track with and manual would be my choice for that
@@james87fry the 3.4S does offer a lot more power and generally better specced cars. I wouldn’t put anyone off getting a 3.4S but I would have an expert look over it :)
So this scoring ting has been equally much out of proportions as the good, old IMS bearing failures were. Wonder what happened to all those liners which apparently used to literally be dropping out of the blocks ??
The garages are making a killing off these myths😅
I heard that Base level Boxsters and Caymans dont have bore scoring. I heard their pistons are made of a different metal... have u heard this?.
I have heard they are not affected but not sure why, the bigger the displacement the more common. As the 3.4 is a bored out 2.7 engine I would say it has something to do with that. Not sure tho
@@JoeTalksCars On the 3.4 the weight of the piston is greater then 2.7l and when the iron coating rubs off from the piston, the piston skirt starts rubbing against the bore and damaging it.
This is caused by bad fuel injectors. They don’t atomize the fuel properly and end up spraying petrol that washes the oil off the cylinders- and this create the scoring. Make SURE you check your injectors regularly and run an additive in the fuel to clean injectors every few tanks or so.
Interesting theory. Problem is there is so much online with causes, nobody actually really knows the cause 100%. Just seems like a manufacturing defect to me and a roll of the dice when buying.
I do have smoke on start up but does clear up very quickly and in the winter it’s a huge amount. Oil consumption is very low and regards to tapping, I’m half deaf so would not know. I think you have been very unlucky. Maybe you should find other cayman owners who have had bore scoring and record their story while your car is in the garage
The fact it’s huge in winter may be a mix of condensation. That would be an amazing idea!
@@JoeTalksCars the garage you take it for bore scoring may forward your contact details on to previous customers who are will to discuss their story on film. Would definitely make good content.
It's a bummer, but highlights the importance of getting Porsches of this age inspected before purchase, it only cost £300.
Also Joe have you considered getting an engineer's report that the bore scoring was present at purchase? Then you could ask the supplying dealer to pay for the repair using the Consumer Rights act 2015
I didn’t think I’d have a leg to stand on to be honest. I could ask the question tho, it really does show the importance of getting it checked for sure!
You'd have to have an engineer's report based on the images saying it was there when you bought the car, then small claims court.
Can imagine that would be a tough one to prove. I might message them and let them know what happened and see if any goodwill is doable. It was a very pleasant garage to deal with and can’t imagine they would be happy to know this has happened. The problem with bore score is I’ve heard it starts low down in the engine and works it’s way up.
How long have you had it, 12 months? How many miles have you done? A used car has to be 'fit for purpose' an engine rebuild after 1 year isn't acceptable.
I'd call them and have a chat, explain Strasse have diagnosed it as that and it costs £5k, see what they say.
If they don't want to know then get Strasse to write a report and then you submit a small claims. Worse case judge might say they are only partially in liable due to time/mileage.
Bore scoring takes a few years to build up.
@@richfixescars yeah 12 months. I will drop an email and see. Like you said it’s not really good enough after a short time! Il see what they say! Cheers! It is something I had not considered as it’s been a year
3m33 The KEY parameter, is not that you get puffs of smoke on startup
you must correlated to engine OIL consumption..
Mine uses 0ml oil per 5000 km
0w40 and its not measurable if it looses any.
It did occasional puffs of smoke, for 5 years
I replaced the AOS, it was considerably less but would still occasionally puff a little ibt (Valve Guides anyone)
but as there is NO measureable oil consumption : no bore score
I fill mine to the max
then drip feed (50ml at a time , it till it show the last block of verfill)
that then means i'm between 0 and 50mll overfilled
IF that last block suddenly drops, It means I burnt off 0 to 50mll
has never happened, hence, no bore score
That is the only sensible approach, for actual bore score, you would be filling up oil by considerable amounts ever every 1000 km!!!
Obviously all very valid points, thanks for taking your time to watch and comment:) Later on in my channel you will see the extent of the damage. It ended up costing nearly as much as the car cost haha
As far as I am aware it should be a bad result of a compression test and oil consumption only due to recognise a bore scoring.
Compression test showed normal compression but the oil consumption was high. The camera shows the scoring really clearly, they could also tell that it needed a couple of pistons too. Not sure why compression test doesn’t help:/
@@JoeTalksCars thank you for your channel. I was thinking to buy a similar car and, even came down to see one of them, After watching your channel, I am pretty sure that there is no any chance to replace my Audi with 3.2 engine with a Porsche at the same age. To work on the car? No, thanks...
Consider the 2.7 tho! No bore scoring with those and you still get the flat six howl!
Go for nikasil cylinder, with the rebuild
Too late 🤣🤣 but so far so good.
This only happens with the 3.4 not the 2.7, honestly I sacrifice that extra 50hp for a well spec 2.7 manual with better reliability
Yeah I always say that now. I’d have happily gone 2.7. For me it’s not about top trumps but feel and sound of the car. No chance the 2.7 sounds or handles differently.
Been lookin hard at 987 caymans . This bore score deal has kept me from buying
Yeah it’s a huge risk. Can be avoided but I think it’s always going to be in your mind.
I was told 3 weeks for my engine rebuild. 4 months later I still don't have it back yet 😂
Bloody hell! Was that at Hartech did you say before?
What kind of fule consumption do you get? I found mine was much lower than it should be
@@JoeTalksCars yeah. But it's an independent specialist actually taking out the engine and putting it back in and Hartech are just working on the engine itself not the car. He doesn't seam the best but it's who the dealer took it to as they are paying for it.
My 3 month build turned into 10 months and exactly one year later 1700 miles motor has major problems on new rebuild. Beware of a certain eBay rebuilder
Porsche of America did s series on this. They talk in detail about how to prevent it and how to accommodate it if you already have some. Its not a death sentence - or doesnt have to be - if you catch it soon enough or perform the preventative steps they advise during the life of the car. Seems yours went too long without being diagnosed which is obviously unfortunate.
Yeah I’ve seen that. Really good information. Mine was way too far gone, oil burning was high from the off looking back. Shouldn’t have kept the car but we live and learn.
Let me ask you a simple question: if the engine wasn’t tapping and the car drove fine, why exactly did you rebuild the engine? Was it because it was consuming too much oil during one trip to Scotland? Did you consider changing the type of oil, viscosity etc. or did you rebuild a perfectly working engine because the internet told you ought to? Or did the internet tell you that if yo7 didn’t rebuild immediately catastrophic failure, not the clattering engine and billowing smoke, would befall your engine? My view Joe, is that there were a number of steps that you could have taken before the rebuild and saved yourself a heap of cash. But you are where you and it looks like you’re enjoying the car, which is no different in terms of performance than it was , but it allows you to sleep at night, albeit a lot poorer.
Hi, yeah so the oil use made me think something was badly wrong, it smelled really bad and not even that long after this video it was knocking and dropping cylinders :(
When the bore score problem has started it gets worse fast, and if you keep driving it will run fine until you get sudden catastrophic failure that totals the engine and you need an entire new engine, that is what they say at least...
@@a64738 which is rubbish I’m afraid. You can search the entire internet and will struggle to find a case of borescore leading to catastrophic engine failure. Other than increased oil consumption, piston slap is the end game of a bore scored engine which you are right, will get progressively worse, but it’ll take years to destroy the engine.
In the Porsche community folk spend £00000’s rebuilding engines at the mere sight of streaks in the bore, way before the onset of piston slap. Is it necessary? If the car is a keeper and you can afford it, fine. If not, just drive the car and keep an eye on the oil.
I had bore scoring on my 996 and you could hear the knocking on a cold start, once it was warm though it sounded fine. Incidentally, this can happen on other cars too, I had a VW Beetle (2012 model) that required an engine rebuild after bore scoring, it just wasn't as costly as a Porsche.
Yeah mine did actually start knocking in the end, It was the day i took it in for work! Typical. Guessing your 996 was a lot of £££ to put right. Did you do all 6 liners in steel?
@@JoeTalksCars Actually the knocking came about 2,000 miles after a £5k rebuild by Autostrasse in Essex for the IMS which was caught on it's last legs. When the engine was apart I mentioned the liners, they said they were fine, 2,000 miles later the knocking started, Autostrasse said it can happen at any time - BS, IMO, I think it overheated when they were testing it due to not bleeding the cooling system effectively. It wasn't too bad so I lived with it for a few months and eventually sold the car to an enthusiast (it was perfect otherwise) who wasn't concerned by it.
You used to have a Megane cab 225 didn’t you?
I did:) well remembered
@@JoeTalksCars I used to do testing for your car cleaning products you had auto exlier
Mate if you pay for a inspection you will never have a car you could pay for five inspection and still have no car I totally agree at some point you have to buy with you hart and get on with it
Yeah that is true. Just put you off most cars out there. At the end of the day they are old cars now so things are going to go wrong and cost £££.
Ppl saying you should have got it checked before u bought it are daft. The scope is quite invasive, if someone wanted to scope my car before buying it, I wouldn't let them, because an amateur can easily damage the engine doing so. The only safe place to take it would be Porsche, and why am I going to go to the inconvenience of getting my car to Porsche for a day so someone MIGHT buy it?! It's not a realistic suggestion. U pays ur money, u takes ur chances 👍
@@Model192 well yeah, if they're an idiot lol. But also to do a full exam you need to manually crank the engine (obviously, because the pistons aren't all up or all down at the same time) which can upset the timing. So yeah, I wouldn't be letting some random moron with a boroscope who "might" buy my car go messing about in there. Also I'm told it takes a real expert to even diagnose scoring this way. Apparently most cylinders have harmless scoring in them, whether or not this is problematic and likely to develop into full bore scoring is basically personal opinion. So you also run the risk of some idiot telling you you've got bore score when you don't. Cue money then wasted having to go to a proper specialist for reassurance. No thanks!
Incorrect. It's not hard to scope an engine. Any decent specialist can do it. If a seller refuses, walk away. It's no more invasive than changing the spark plugs. Incidentally, taking it to Porsche would not be a great idea. Better off with a good independent specialist. Most Porsche centres won't be terribly experienced regarding scoping these slightly older engines. Pre purchase inspections are very normal on cars like this. I've bought Porsche privately and had them inspected before purchase. If the seller said no, I'd walk away. It's a completely reasonable request provided the buyer pays for it and reflects very poorly on a seller who refuses.
@@flat6croc very well, don't buy a Porsche from me then. I'm sure there are plenty of specialists who are very capable, but if you want me to put faith in the fact that you (person I've never met who currently has zero financial responsibility for my vehicle) will a) find a capable person and b) pay enough for said competent person, AND you want me to use MY time for this to occur... No thanks mate. If you insist, that's cool, like I say, don't buy my Porsche lol
@@flat6croc PS Any inspection would be welcome, as long as it doesn't involve removing anything significant. Both specialists I go to have said they would never remove parts on an inspection, because they never know if the car's been poorly maintained and the bits don't go back on (corroded bolts etc), then they become liable, it all becomes a hassle and not worth the money for the risk. So a difference of opinion from specialists maybe. But I like mine, and trust mine. I don't know or trust yours. And that's kinda my point
Well it may be people would think it could damage it and with getting something in there you potentially could. I wouldn’t want somebody doing it that was a prospective buyer.
Repair cost sounds low. You may be getting a rebuilt engine still susceptible to bore scoring. LN Engineering website has extensive resources on bore scoring, including, I think, a 4 part video from Porsche Club of America that takes you through from start to repair. The cost for a proper rebuild that will not be susceptible to a repeat is 20-25USD.
yes 5000 sounds like they have only done 2 cylinders, when you fix bore score you do all six if you do not want bore score on the next cylinders in a year or 2...
Maybe it has already been asked but why don’t just take the risk to live with bore scoring and not fixing it?
I tried but in the end it was taking over 2L of oil every 100 miles. It was struggling to start too.
They say if you keep driving with bore score it gets worse fast and you risk totaling the engine and need replacing the entire engine when it blows (or whatever happens that totals it).
Oil burn
go to slightly heavier weight oil
still oil burn ?
you have bore score, get a scope in there cause yer engine is done.
Tried the heavy oil. No change, won’t help hide borescore like some would have you believe
@@JoeTalksCars no heavy oil won't help a damn for bore score, thats just to rule other things out like slightly worn rhings or valve guides
I think you were being paranoid. That smoke is very minimal 😂 and typical for that engine. I think your mechanic took advantage of you. 😢
If only that were true. The car made clanging metal noises when it went it. Ran on 5 cylinders and was drinking litres of oil a day. Certainly not paranoia.
Sorry man, I was mostly distracted by all of the bird crap on your car.
🤣🤣🤣
I cant stand forums. Porsches dont just "burn oil" and send out blue puffs of smoke lol good condition motors never do.
Yeah forums offer vast wealth of knowledge but not always accurate. The blue smoke could be hiding something much much worse
2m42 "as you can see"
well i cannot see, t here is no way to call that blue smoke in this video
looks white, perhaps its the video or its just white smoke on a cold day from water vapour in the exhaust, I cannot tell
It really was blue. Trust me I wish it wasn’t.
@@JoeTalksCars yeah must camera then
Tapping will only happen when car is hot and has been running for a while and idling for a bit. if you start the engine as you did in the video, even if the engine is still hot, it may take a while for the tapping to start. It's only light, typically, and will almost always be on the left bank.
Anyway, people tend to get very upset when it's pointed out the bore scoring on the M97 3.4-3.8 is rife and make accusations of scare mongering. But here we go again. Yet another car with scoring. Bore scoring on these larger M97 engines is far, far more widespread than IMS ever was on the earlier M96 engines.
Yeah it doesn’t do it when warm. May just start tho, not using the car until it goes in now. Yeah you see it daily on forums and Facebook. The problem is widespread, the initial 3% of cars affected was when it was first found. As the cars get older more will come out. Should have bought the 2.7 but here I am. Never mind, it’s going to be great when finished.
@@JoeTalksCars I don't know where you're getting 'the initial 3 percent' figure, but it's entirely made up. At this point, if you took a random sample of existing gen one 3.4 cars, you'd find at minimum a third had at least the beginnings of scoring - and quite possibly 50 percent or more. I would also think carefully about the repair. £5-6k must mean you're not doing the whole engine. I assume just one cylinder, probably number six. Other cylinders will eventually fail. At absolute minimum you should do all three on bank two. You also want to do the crank shells while you have the engine out and apart.
Thats the figure batted around on pistonheads ect, totally agree it is wrong. It was probably that when the cars came out but as the years and miles pile on I fear they will all end up with scoring of some sort. The rebuild is all 6 cylinders and 1 piston at least. The cost is lower that somewhere like Hartech as we have opted for the steel liners, the special liners Hartech use are near 1k each i think. I need to clarify what else they are doing but I am 99% sure they mentioned crack shells, belts, chains, pumps ect. Will clear it up on the next video. Thanks for the comment:)
Smoke is not normal
Well sometimes it is depending on the situation. Mine still does have a little cough of smoke if I start it, turn it off and start not long after. But a sustained amount is not normal.
Every time i think about buying a porsche am remides how much of a pos they are, bore scoring really?? Cant even put an engine together reliably geez..
I am with you on that. It does not make sense how this can happen when they are regarded as the best in the business at building engines.
@@JoeTalksCars yea man that sucks
@@JoeTalksCars did u say it had 48k miles?
Your steering wheel's on the wrong side m8
🤣 or is it on the right side?
How to pronounce Porsche ua-cam.com/video/Im2eYuGdmfY/v-deo.html
I’m British so say it like I do…should I start saying BMV?
@@JoeTalksCars You should use the correct pronunciation in both cases. Of course if you're ignorant to the correct pronunciations then you could be forgiven, but never choose to purposely pronounce words wrong. I feel like this is common sense. It feels natural to me that If I am corrected on a pronunciation, then I would be confident in myself, in my ego as a logical, rational person who is open to changing myself upon discovery of new knowledge to use the correct pronunciation. And then there's others who have the rebel attitude. I mean seriously what kind of rebel is the type who dares to pronounce words incorrectly and then have the bravery to continue to mispronounce once he's corrected ? Ahh its all part of the 'dumbing down of society' Joe and you shouldn't be taking any part in advancing that cause. Choose to be better Joe. You have a car based YT channel, you need to step up your game from sounding like an armature backyard mechanic to sounding like an educated man on the subject that your channel is based on. I'd say that 90% of all the people on YT who pronounce Porsche wrong are British. We gotta change that Joe, me and you together, one corrected British car UA-camr at a time, we'll do our part to make this a better world.
@@RustyCyler 😅
@@JoeTalksCars LOL ⛪🦤 So did I convince you ?
Dump the slush box auto and get a manual!
Nah I love the slushmatic
3D number plates = bore score
are they that bad? They are only slightly raised
Your car is punishing you for putting those horrid raised font number plates on it.
Maybe so. I quite like them.