I grew up in an LDS family in southeastern Idaho, but throughout my childhood, I resisted what I saw as its inherent absurdities. Despite my doubts, I chose to serve a mission in South Korea in the early 1980s, largely to avoid completely disappointing my parents. However, the daily scrutiny of LDS doctrine during that time marked the beginning of my departure from the faith. By the time I returned home, I had made the decision to leave Mormonism behind entirely. This choice cost me my family, but I accepted their rejection as a fair price for a life devoted to the sincere pursuit of truth. Now, as I sit on my farm in northeastern Thailand, reflecting on this fascinating conversation, Mormonism feels like a distant memory-yet it remains a pivotal chapter in my life’s journey. What a strange life this has been!
Damn I just lost my entire family yesterday because of the church just as you describe. I won’t sacrifice my character for truth, no matter how hard my family wanted me to. Thanks for your comment.
For heaven sake, what is wrong with family members getting rejected believing, by their own acceptance of what they think is factual and truth. This is a bad religious attitude to have. Shame on you whoever you are.
Thanks! Great 3+ hours of the history of the Book of Mormon. What a powerhouse crew. Brent thank you for all your sacrifices. I pray more people watch this episode
I think I'm only scratching the surface of understanding why the Mosiah priority is important in demonstrating JS as the writer of the BofM. I appreciate all of the scholarship that went into this episode.
Just finished this episode and really enjoyed it. The contribution and scholarly work that Brent Metcalfe has provided around the historicity of the Book of Mormon is invaluable. Him and the work of Dr. Thomas Murphy have drastically changed the way I view the Book of Mormon. I am by no means a believer in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, but I do find great value in it as 19th century scripture and preserving Christian theology from that time. However, I really wish I had watched this episode live, I would have loved to call in and get Brent’s view on the last remarks he gave around the gold plates. The remaining 10 minutes of the episode (2:36 - 2:44) right before the live calls Brent talks about how in Mormon chapter 1 after Ammaron hides up the records in the hill Shim in 320 AD he tells Mormon when he is 10 that when he (Mormon) is 24 years old he should go to the land of Antum to the hill Shim and he should take the plates of Nephi unto himself and the remainder he shall leave in the hill Shim. That is the end of Brent’s storyline of the plates, however, that is not the full storyline of the Book of Mormon. In 362 AD Mormon refuses to lead the Nephites in battle because of their wickedness in pursuing an offensive war. Then in around 375 AD “Mormon seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore he did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up into the Lord.” (Mormon 4:23). If the entire land is in danger, the sacred records are also in danger. Mormon takes them from the hill Shim to keep them in his personal protection. He now holds access to all the Nephite records. After he retrieves all the plates from the Hill Shim, he repents of his oath that he would no longer assist the Nephites and again becomes their commander and chief. In 384 AD Mormon says, “And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” (Mormon 6:6). Mormon had all the Nephite records and plates for approximately 9 years before burying them in the Hill Cumorah and giving Moroni the Gold Plates (Book of Mormon today). Now from the story line in Words of Mormon verse 1 “And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni…for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki speak, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands (all the records which he had retrieved from the Hill Shim from Mormon 4:23), and I found these plates (the small plates of Nephi), which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi…Wherefore, I choose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi.” (Words of Mormon 1:1-3). A similar case could be made for the book of Ether since King Mosiah translates the 24 gold plates found by the people of Limhi when they were trying to find their way back to the Land of Zarahemla. In Mosiah 28 Mosiah translates and causes to be written those records which were on the plates of gold (Jaredite record) which had been found by the people of Limhi and sends them forth unto his people…Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to morn exceedingly…and this account shall be written hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.” After he does that, he gives all the records to Alma the younger who subsequently becomes the first chief judge of the land and the high priest over the church and those records are handed down through his linage until Ammaron who buries all the plates and Mormon retrieves them from the hill. I would love to know Brent’s perspective on this. This fuller account would bridge the gap between Brent’s conclusion of Mormon never retrieving all the records from the Hill Shim, the book of Ether, and Mormon’s valedictory in the end of Mormon chapter 7.
I have such a problem with baptisms for the dead, and I've always deeply resented the fact that it'll happen to me against my wishes. Brent's gentleness has made me really reconsider and make more peace with it. Thank you, Brent. ❤
What a great episode! I wish I had come across Brent Metcalfe years ago!! One thing that I think should be added to Brent's publication of his incredible compilation is my brother's work on how the historical text itself contained in the BoM was not possible, given the time frame the BoM is purported to have been written in. Dr. John Lundwall has been in numerous podcasts & videos explaining why the BoM's text itself disproves the BoM. At an extremely high level, never mind the content, the historicity method of the writings contained in the BoM was not how cultures would even use 600BCE, let alone that there has NEVER been ANY text found on plates of ANY TYPE (gold, copper, silver, bronze, etc) would EVER contain historical accounts of ANYTHING. The writings ALWAYS contained rituals, prayers (and the like). The BoM is a PERFECT example of Abraham Lincoln holding an iPhone in a picture of the same. The beauty of deconstructing how the BoM came into being is that it doesn't matter where you look (the exhaustive work from Brent , etc.), the BoM is easily deconstructed. Using Joseph's own life experiences, the 19th century look and feel of the BoM, word analysis, and two dozen more methods of pulling the BoM apart by its seams, all point to the fact that the BoM was NOT a product of a translation of golden plates. I personally am playing "catch-up" as I just recently left the church, and am soaking up every podcast that I have time to look/listen to. I have however been listening to my brother's work in pre-text peoples (oral thinking and oral-centric methods of communications) for years and I hope it too becomes a source of the BoM deconstruction. Thank you to the Mormon Stories Podcast group for having Brent on!! John Dehlin, Bill Reel, RFM... what a rock of understanding you all give me!! I love your episodes! PS> I didn't give the church the satisfaction of excommunicating me 🙂. I left the church on my own accord and terms.
Excellant podcast.....also was blessed to find and purchase Brent's book,' New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology'.
There’s no part of me that can desire a portion of the church’s truth claims without them acknowledging the beauty of a truly thoughtful mormon faith. From the ground up. They owe their truth tellers THE TRUTH. Thank you all for this truthful intellect shared. And thank you for providing elements of truth. It’s a healing balm for intellectuals I’m sure.
I recently read "New Approaches" and I was so impressed. I would have never heard of it if I hadn't listened to Mormon Stories. I especially loved the essay about population science. It was so observant and clever. It was impossible for the "Book of Mormon peoples" to have grown in population as fast as suggested and to have had as many wars as were mentioned without those peoples having special (magical) biological characteristics. The more I consider my Mormon upbringing the more I realize I was living in a synthesized fairy tale!
Not sure if ita been covered or not, but, a 'salamander' is a fire spirit or elemental in folk magic...in this context. Not a slimy dark dwelling reptile.....
@nicholasburnett3776 ALL THE MORE SIGNIFICANT. OCCULT. IS. O C C U L T. "SECRET KNOWLEDGE" is not meant for self-indulgent power-hungry consumerism. "THE. SECRET. THINGS. BELONG. TO. GOD." Jesus said He had told us EVERYTHING the Father had SHOWN Him. And warned us against "treasure-digging" in its truest sense. He PROMISED, "NOTHING IS HIDDEN EXCEPT TO BE REVEALED." BY. ME.
John, you really should have Jacob Hansen on. See his latest video about you. I dont think you can leave this unaswered. Have him and Brent on together in a healthy debate.
I address this in my essay on pp. 400-401. What complicates placing Emma's story in 1828 is David Whitmer makes precisely the same claim, placing the event in June 1829.
I wish he would have pointed out where the specific anti-universalist caricature is in the BOM. Anyone in the comments section know where that would be?
Whatever book is given priority, still alot of problems with the lost 116 pages, the WAY joseph smith claimed to 'translate' via his 'seer stone' or 'urim & thummim', in a HAT, and the problem of whether the 'gold plates' were present or not during this 'processs' related to also how long it took to write/compose the whole BOM, with its various participants. Seems like a hot mess, no matter how scholarly its assessed.
RFM I love you but please show some respect to your superiors. When you put John Dehlin down and act like he’s a nobody it puts him in an awkward place. And while he takes it graciously it reflects poorly on you.
What RFM was doing was clearly joking and actually is a fun way of showing respect. It’s like saying to Michael Jordan “hey I heard you might know a thing or two about basketball”. Everyone knows MJ is the GOAT already so it’s a fun way of showing him respect.
My view is that Jesus is a construct from the Greek Orthodox/ Roman Catholic. He was neither Greek, Roman, nor English. His true name is Yeshua and translated correctly into English would be Joshua. Most everyone is talking about a fictional person.
i'm glad we're able to stretch the definitions of terms such as "scholar" and "historian" to include Metcalfe! it's a shame he's neither by any academic standards! those pesky Mormon historians and their masters degrees and phds are too much for us!
Most scholars I know try to avoid gate keeping the term "scholar" or "historian" based on degrees but rather think about a person's *contribution* to a domain. People like Blake Ostler (JD but no degree in field of contribution), Matthew Roper (MA sociology), Michael Ash, and Brian Hales are all folks without the proper advanced degree for their field of research, but they have nonetheless made contributions and are sometimes called "scholars", etc. But yeah, if you think Brent hasn't made enough contribution (or lacking enough depth, etc), then go ahead and make that argument directly?
This episode is nothing but weak pseudoscience that can be explained many different ways and is not the smoking gun they act like it is. Why not explain something more substantial, like how the BoM contains so many chiasmus.
He's right. You can twist it and argue it until your blew in the face. The book itself is inspired no matter how you slice it. JS did not and could not have written it. It is a masterwork. No man could have written that book unless my divine provocation.@@Mariebar-p4z
what criteria do you hold to prove your statement? :) - no archeological evidence, neither any gold plates existing....so there is no way it can proven that way, or any other really, beyond a subjective interpretation of the STORY and its contents, which vary on many levels. Try again? :)
It wasn't completed in 70 days. Joseph had years and years to create it. His own mother said that he would tell stories for hours of lamanites and nephites.... way before anything in the book of mormon was officially written down. The 70 days or 90 days apologetic argument is just silly.
Joseph Smith is proven less than reliable about his activity. Include how much time he actually spent working on and creating the book of Mormon before mentioning the story he told the public.
Any man that would lie to his wife, repeatedly about his multiple extra marital affairs with young girls, and married women amongst others would certainly stoop to lie about the creation of the book he relied upon to give himself credibility
@@ryanwilson8293 ,...The truth is, EVERYTHING about the bom is not only silly, but flat out ignorant, and 100% antigod, antibible, and antichrist. It is a book that is only believed by the worlds most ignorant people.
Say whatever you want to say. Use all the so called wisdom inspired by the devil who is the father of lies and the chief of the anti christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is and will ever be and forever will be the only true and living Church upon the earth. It is the Kingdom of God on the earth as interpreted by Daniel of the dream of Nedbuchadnezzar.
J. Reuben Clark said “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” In that spirit, the church and its faithful followers should welcome all criticism and let the consequence follow. If it’s true, then no harm will be done. If not true, then let it be exposed as such. You seem very confident in your position so nothing for you to worry about 😊
The only true and living church upon the earth 😂 I used to believe this too. Aside from the many evidences against that bold claim, the math tells a story too… Around 4 million active members globally out of an 8 billion population - that’s a 0.05% success rate 😮 For an all knowing, all powerful God who commanded prophets through the centuries to engrave and lug around gold plates so they could be translated in the latter days for the salvation of His beloved children - it’s a massive fail don’t you think? 😅
I grew up in an LDS family in southeastern Idaho, but throughout my childhood, I resisted what I saw as its inherent absurdities. Despite my doubts, I chose to serve a mission in South Korea in the early 1980s, largely to avoid completely disappointing my parents. However, the daily scrutiny of LDS doctrine during that time marked the beginning of my departure from the faith. By the time I returned home, I had made the decision to leave Mormonism behind entirely. This choice cost me my family, but I accepted their rejection as a fair price for a life devoted to the sincere pursuit of truth. Now, as I sit on my farm in northeastern Thailand, reflecting on this fascinating conversation, Mormonism feels like a distant memory-yet it remains a pivotal chapter in my life’s journey. What a strange life this has been!
Damn I just lost my entire family yesterday because of the church just as you describe. I won’t sacrifice my character for truth, no matter how hard my family wanted me to. Thanks for your comment.
Inherent absurdities. Yep. That about sums it up.
For heaven sake, what is wrong with family members getting rejected believing, by their own acceptance of what they think is factual and truth. This is a bad religious attitude to have. Shame on you whoever you are.
@@horstbendzulla6425yes, it's sad that ones family shuns you, but that is how Mormons are and Jehovahs.
Dan, we need to meet. I live in Bangkok. How can I contact you?
Thanks! Great 3+ hours of the history of the Book of Mormon. What a powerhouse crew. Brent thank you for all your sacrifices. I pray more people watch this episode
I think I'm only scratching the surface of understanding why the Mosiah priority is important in demonstrating JS as the writer of the BofM. I appreciate all of the scholarship that went into this episode.
Just finished this episode and really enjoyed it. The contribution and scholarly work that Brent Metcalfe has provided around the historicity of the Book of Mormon is invaluable. Him and the work of Dr. Thomas Murphy have drastically changed the way I view the Book of Mormon. I am by no means a believer in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon, but I do find great value in it as 19th century scripture and preserving Christian theology from that time. However, I really wish I had watched this episode live, I would have loved to call in and get Brent’s view on the last remarks he gave around the gold plates. The remaining 10 minutes of the episode (2:36 - 2:44) right before the live calls Brent talks about how in Mormon chapter 1 after Ammaron hides up the records in the hill Shim in 320 AD he tells Mormon when he is 10 that when he (Mormon) is 24 years old he should go to the land of Antum to the hill Shim and he should take the plates of Nephi unto himself and the remainder he shall leave in the hill Shim. That is the end of Brent’s storyline of the plates, however, that is not the full storyline of the Book of Mormon. In 362 AD Mormon refuses to lead the Nephites in battle because of their wickedness in pursuing an offensive war. Then in around 375 AD “Mormon seeing that the Lamanites were about to overthrow the land, therefore he did go to the hill Shim, and did take up all the records which Ammaron had hid up into the Lord.” (Mormon 4:23). If the entire land is in danger, the sacred records are also in danger. Mormon takes them from the hill Shim to keep them in his personal protection. He now holds access to all the Nephite records. After he retrieves all the plates from the Hill Shim, he repents of his oath that he would no longer assist the Nephites and again becomes their commander and chief. In 384 AD Mormon says, “And it came to pass that when we had gathered in all our people in one to the land of Cumorah, behold I, Mormon, began to be old; and knowing it to be the last struggle of my people, and having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni.” (Mormon 6:6). Mormon had all the Nephite records and plates for approximately 9 years before burying them in the Hill Cumorah and giving Moroni the Gold Plates (Book of Mormon today). Now from the story line in Words of Mormon verse 1 “And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni…for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki speak, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands (all the records which he had retrieved from the Hill Shim from Mormon 4:23), and I found these plates (the small plates of Nephi), which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi…Wherefore, I choose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi.” (Words of Mormon 1:1-3). A similar case could be made for the book of Ether since King Mosiah translates the 24 gold plates found by the people of Limhi when they were trying to find their way back to the Land of Zarahemla. In Mosiah 28 Mosiah translates and causes to be written those records which were on the plates of gold (Jaredite record) which had been found by the people of Limhi and sends them forth unto his people…Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to morn exceedingly…and this account shall be written hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.” After he does that, he gives all the records to Alma the younger who subsequently becomes the first chief judge of the land and the high priest over the church and those records are handed down through his linage until Ammaron who buries all the plates and Mormon retrieves them from the hill. I would love to know Brent’s perspective on this. This fuller account would bridge the gap between Brent’s conclusion of Mormon never retrieving all the records from the Hill Shim, the book of Ether, and Mormon’s valedictory in the end of Mormon chapter 7.
I have such a problem with baptisms for the dead, and I've always deeply resented the fact that it'll happen to me against my wishes. Brent's gentleness has made me really reconsider and make more peace with it. Thank you, Brent. ❤
Brent Metcalf has such great stories, and knew many lds authorities personally.
What a great episode! I wish I had come across Brent Metcalfe years ago!! One thing that I think should be added to Brent's publication of his incredible compilation is my brother's work on how the historical text itself contained in the BoM was not possible, given the time frame the BoM is purported to have been written in. Dr. John Lundwall has been in numerous podcasts & videos explaining why the BoM's text itself disproves the BoM. At an extremely high level, never mind the content, the historicity method of the writings contained in the BoM was not how cultures would even use 600BCE, let alone that there has NEVER been ANY text found on plates of ANY TYPE (gold, copper, silver, bronze, etc) would EVER contain historical accounts of ANYTHING. The writings ALWAYS contained rituals, prayers (and the like). The BoM is a PERFECT example of Abraham Lincoln holding an iPhone in a picture of the same.
The beauty of deconstructing how the BoM came into being is that it doesn't matter where you look (the exhaustive work from Brent , etc.), the BoM is easily deconstructed. Using Joseph's own life experiences, the 19th century look and feel of the BoM, word analysis, and two dozen more methods of pulling the BoM apart by its seams, all point to the fact that the BoM was NOT a product of a translation of golden plates.
I personally am playing "catch-up" as I just recently left the church, and am soaking up every podcast that I have time to look/listen to. I have however been listening to my brother's work in pre-text peoples (oral thinking and oral-centric methods of communications) for years and I hope it too becomes a source of the BoM deconstruction.
Thank you to the Mormon Stories Podcast group for having Brent on!! John Dehlin, Bill Reel, RFM... what a rock of understanding you all give me!! I love your episodes!
PS> I didn't give the church the satisfaction of excommunicating me 🙂. I left the church on my own accord and terms.
Of course the bom is all a con artist made fraud. No one who has any Biblical literacy is deceived by this Godless, fake, abomination.
Best of luck to you on your journey out of the Mormon church! I went through the same in 2007 and am so glad I’m no longer living the Lie. ❤😊
Excellant podcast.....also was blessed to find and purchase Brent's book,' New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology'.
This was so amazing, concepts I never considered and the revisiting of some previously covered. Thank you John.
An absolutely amazing discussion
Thanks!
Thank you All!
Fascinating podcast.
☮️
Our pleasure!
Brilliant, end to end. Brent is a treasure.
What a great episode!! It was John’s giggling for me 🤭🤭🤭
There’s no part of me that can desire a portion of the church’s truth claims without them acknowledging the beauty of a truly thoughtful mormon faith. From the ground up. They owe their truth tellers THE TRUTH. Thank you all for this truthful intellect shared. And thank you for providing elements of truth. It’s a healing balm for intellectuals I’m sure.
I recently read "New Approaches" and I was so impressed. I would have never heard of it if I hadn't listened to Mormon Stories.
I especially loved the essay about population science. It was so observant and clever. It was impossible for the "Book of Mormon peoples" to have grown in population as fast as suggested and to have had as many wars as were mentioned without those peoples having special (magical) biological characteristics. The more I consider my Mormon upbringing the more I realize I was living in a synthesized fairy tale!
Not sure if ita been covered or not, but, a 'salamander' is a fire spirit or elemental in folk magic...in this context. Not a slimy dark dwelling reptile.....
Important clarification
@nicholasburnett3776
ALL THE MORE
SIGNIFICANT.
OCCULT. IS. O C C U L T.
"SECRET KNOWLEDGE" is not meant for self-indulgent
power-hungry consumerism.
"THE. SECRET. THINGS. BELONG. TO. GOD."
Jesus said He had told us EVERYTHING the Father had SHOWN Him.
And warned us against "treasure-digging" in its truest sense.
He PROMISED, "NOTHING IS HIDDEN EXCEPT TO BE REVEALED."
BY. ME.
John, you really should have Jacob Hansen on. See his latest video about you. I dont think you can leave this unaswered. Have him and Brent on together in a healthy debate.
I wasn’t expecting this episode to get a little spicy.
Dear Audience....If you could ask Joseph Smith anything, what would you want to know?
Great episode! Very interesting.
Metcalfe is crushing.
God is the people❤
What do you think of Lars Nielson’s book How the Book of Mormon Came to Pass?
I think is well researched and expertly explained.
Could it be possible that Emma was recalling what she was a scribe for in the lost 116 pages? Trying to be fair, if that's a possibility?
I address this in my essay on pp. 400-401. What complicates placing Emma's story in 1828 is David Whitmer makes precisely the same claim, placing the event in June 1829.
I wish he would have pointed out where the specific anti-universalist caricature is in the BOM. Anyone in the comments section know where that would be?
Whatever book is given priority, still alot of problems with the lost 116 pages, the WAY joseph smith claimed to 'translate' via his 'seer stone' or 'urim & thummim', in a HAT, and the problem of whether the 'gold plates' were present or not during this 'processs' related to also how long it took to write/compose the whole BOM, with its various participants. Seems like a hot mess, no matter how scholarly its assessed.
I would pay to have one of those Beavis and Butthead volumes. How can you take something serious that uses such a petty tactic?
The best of the best
I like Brents taonga
"Flesh and blood" (Matthew 16:17).
Psalms 2:1, 4 & 9
RFM I love you but please show some respect to your superiors. When you put John Dehlin down and act like he’s a nobody it puts him in an awkward place. And while he takes it graciously it reflects poorly on you.
I think maybe you should simply do what’s best for you .
What RFM was doing was clearly joking and actually is a fun way of showing respect. It’s like saying to Michael Jordan “hey I heard you might know a thing or two about basketball”. Everyone knows MJ is the GOAT already so it’s a fun way of showing him respect.
@@chubbuck35some people have no sense of humor lol it's sad
Jesus is His name; Christ is a title.
My view is that Jesus is a construct from the Greek Orthodox/ Roman Catholic. He was neither Greek, Roman, nor English. His true name is Yeshua and translated correctly into English would be Joshua. Most everyone is talking about a fictional person.
Nope.....His true name is Yeshua.
4 grizzled atheists. Fascinating.
Okay?
Joseph Smit isn't the transistor neither the autor of the Book of Mormon. He is the interpreter by heavenly means.❤
I hear you. Have you ever read the gospel topics essays at the LDD church website?
@mxcalibur018
"TRANSISTOR" 👽 is about as high js could ever hope to be.
i'm glad we're able to stretch the definitions of terms such as "scholar" and "historian" to include Metcalfe! it's a shame he's neither by any academic standards! those pesky Mormon historians and their masters degrees and phds are too much for us!
Most scholars I know try to avoid gate keeping the term "scholar" or "historian" based on degrees but rather think about a person's *contribution* to a domain. People like Blake Ostler (JD but no degree in field of contribution), Matthew Roper (MA sociology), Michael Ash, and Brian Hales are all folks without the proper advanced degree for their field of research, but they have nonetheless made contributions and are sometimes called "scholars", etc.
But yeah, if you think Brent hasn't made enough contribution (or lacking enough depth, etc), then go ahead and make that argument directly?
@@johnprince5356 Here's the thing. sk7ecd cannot make a cogent argument, just an ad hominem attack.
You are unable to write a cogent English sentence, therefore, you have no right to criticize anyone's else's credentials.
If the Bible was created there is no need to waste time and energy here. Who wrote the Bible? Are you sure?
This episode is nothing but weak pseudoscience that can be explained many different ways and is not the smoking gun they act like it is. Why not explain something more substantial, like how the BoM contains so many chiasmus.
You latter day scribes make me laugh lol "But the one who rules in heaven laughs. The Lord scoffs at them" Psalms 2:4
Reject the church fine. There is no way to discount the book of mormon. It is a true record
lol 😂🤣
He's right. You can twist it and argue it until your blew in the face. The book itself is inspired no matter how you slice it. JS did not and could not have written it. It is a masterwork. No man could have written that book unless my divine provocation.@@Mariebar-p4z
what criteria do you hold to prove your statement? :) - no archeological evidence, neither any gold plates existing....so there is no way it can proven that way, or any other really, beyond a subjective interpretation of the STORY and its contents, which vary on many levels. Try again? :)
Use Google ai and ask for evidence whether it be literary or archeological...get back to me
@standardworks AI is not reliable; you expose your own ignorance when you appeal to it
When does he reveal who wrote the Book of Mormon in 70 days? lol
It wasn't completed in 70 days. Joseph had years and years to create it. His own mother said that he would tell stories for hours of lamanites and nephites.... way before anything in the book of mormon was officially written down. The 70 days or 90 days apologetic argument is just silly.
Joseph Smith is proven less than reliable about his activity. Include how much time he actually spent working on and creating the book of Mormon before mentioning the story he told the public.
Any man that would lie to his wife, repeatedly about his multiple extra marital affairs with young girls, and married women amongst others would certainly stoop to lie about the creation of the book he relied upon to give himself credibility
Haha, did you listen to the podcast?!?
@@ryanwilson8293 ,...The truth is, EVERYTHING about the bom is not only silly, but flat out ignorant, and 100% antigod, antibible, and antichrist. It is a book that is only believed by the worlds most ignorant people.
Say whatever you want to say. Use all the so called wisdom inspired by the devil who is the father of lies and the chief of the anti christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is and will ever be and forever will be the only true and living Church upon the earth. It is the Kingdom of God on the earth as interpreted by Daniel of the dream of Nedbuchadnezzar.
In your humble opinion 😂😂😂
J. Reuben Clark said “If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.”
In that spirit, the church and its faithful followers should welcome all criticism and let the consequence follow.
If it’s true, then no harm will be done. If not true, then let it be exposed as such.
You seem very confident in your position so nothing for you to worry about 😊
The only true and living church upon the earth 😂
I used to believe this too. Aside from the many evidences against that bold claim, the math tells a story too…
Around 4 million active members globally out of an 8 billion population - that’s a 0.05% success rate 😮
For an all knowing, all powerful God who commanded prophets through the centuries to engrave and lug around gold plates so they could be translated in the latter days for the salvation of His beloved children - it’s a massive fail don’t you think? 😅
You sound like a crazy person.
I wasn’t expecting this episode to get a little spicy.
At what min mark does it get spicy?