My take on the question of this episode... before watching.. this is something I have been observing with great interest for many years now. At one point in my life I studied the religions of the world and noticed a certain trend that modernity has brought to the table when it comes to theism as a whole. I think as society advances and continues to develop scientifically and philosophically, we are slowly moving past the era of religion. Nowadays, a lot of what religion practices is in a lot of ways the upholding of old standards. Old ways of life, old principles, old teachings. Most theists can acknowledge this. Take the perspective of people thousands of years ago, and the perspectives were not old-- They were revolutionary. Groundbreaking new revelations were at various points in history coming from everyone and anyone who had the courage to speak on a busy street corner. Back then, religion was innovation-- it was the way forward. The people of 2000 years ago looked back on the greeks and scoffed. The people of those times had moved past the old ways and have gotten used to it and learned its faults. Now, 2000 years later, here we are, growing tired of the old ways, getting used to the teachings of todays mainstream religions, and being able to reject it because it is increasingly obvious how dated it is becoming. If society lives another 2000 years, they will look back on whatever is modern today and laugh as to how foolish we must have been to believe such concepts. Just as we laugh at those from the past. History will repeat itself. We are just watching the transition of the relationship between society and theism taking place before our eyes. I only wonder, what could be next, and what will we never know? LONG comment but this is a topic I have given much thought to over many years and this is my first time having the opportunity to share this. Thanks if anyone reads.
I wonder how much impact a Roman emperor making Christianity the official state religion had on its growth. Prior to that, pagan cults were still going strong.
How do you define religion? If you define it as I do as a paradigm that seeks to give purpose and meaning to life, then secularity is in and of itself a religion. It’s the religion of anti religion. I would argue that woke culture etc is its own form of religion. It’s the god shaped hole psychology, humans have a need for fulfillment purpose, etc so if they’re not going to get that from a traditional religion, they’ll get it from somewhere else.
I think you're right concerning a progressive maturing of our understanding of religion. Forms of religion become dated and out of touch with newer thinking. Periodically in history a Jesus, a Buddha, a Muhammed, etc. appears with a new way of understanding religion. They are opposed by the religious leaders who have a vested interest in maintaining the old religious form, but eventually the new religious perspective succeeds because it seems more believable and more beneficial. But no society or civilization has succeeded without a common spiritual perspective or religion. It's sort of like teachers in a school, where each teacher tailors lessons adapted to the developmental stage of his/her class. Try teaching 7th graders material appropriate for 2nd graders. They will feel insulted and will not benefit from it. That seems one of the reasons people have lost interest in traditional religions. With our advanced knowledge of science compared to previous ages, and with our awareness of other religions around the world, we have a much broader view of religion and reality. To be acceptable to modern people, a religion must not contradict scientific truths. It must also promote the best interests of humanity, such as promoting unity and understanding among all people. Past religions arose at a time when the goal was tribal unity, or later unity within a city-state, and later the nation. Again, it's like children progressing through the grades of a school with lessons appropriate for each grade.
This seems like a huge oversimplification. I think there’s also something to be said about how massively different being part of a community because you are paid to be vs because you want to be.
I think the old school belief is that church was the backbone of communities regardless of what faith tradition it is. Now people are fed up with with nonsense that is mainstream organized evangelical Christianity, and Mormonism is more conservative with a lot of strict rules that people are realizing they don’t have to follow to find a sense of belonging and community. The hard part is there those individuals who really struggle with finding a social group, but also don’t go to church, and out of all this, we’re finding more lonely people and we need a way to provide a broad sense of community without having to necessarily replace or mimics large gatherings like church at a regularly scheduled time every week.
As someone who just recently in the past 2 months started actively deconverting, I really resonate with the rationale of learning about problems with the Bible at the same time as learning about the truth claims of the LDS faith. I’ve been working through the truth claim videos with Mike and they very quickly convinced me that the truth claims were false so then I started thinking about joining my wife at church (she’s Methodist) but then I saw their series on problems with Adam and Eve maybe being a late addition, the flood and Tower of Babel being very likely based on Babylonian myths etc. And sure, you could make the argument that these aren’t fatal blows to Christianity because we can still draw lessons but that just doesn’t fit. If those stories were made up the entire time, why just not say it was a fable from the beginning? No one believes the Good Samaritan was real but it’s still an impactful and beautiful story. So it’s hard to believe in a belief system where there is a lot of evidence that a significant part of the text was just some guys riffing off the local myths, presenting it as truth but at the same time, it’s all inspired by God. That just feels like a bridge too far and very similar to the LDS early leader deceit, just 2.5 ish millennia earlier.
I will note that not all Christian denominations view inspiration the same way, and are completely comfortable with those stories being myths from which we draw lessons rather than literal true stories. But also, I entirely get where you're coming from, as a former Evangelical myself.
I would love to add my two bits in what's going on at Ensign College (more broadly BYU Pathway Programs). I actually don't think it's making degrees less qualifying to get rid of all electives. Some places in Europe have a similar set up. For example, I'm not really sure what an online creative writing class will do for someone going into business admin or accounting. When I went through BYU Pathway and graduated in 2021, I took a sh*t ton of institute credits at my local university and sent them in to BYUI. I basically did all of my electives in institute classes. I don't think that is what made me under qualified to work in my field. I think the bigger problem is leading questions in assignments for their marriage and family classes that do not help people reach neutrality and acceptance, an important part of working in mental health fields. Don't get me wrong, the education quality at church universities are questionable. I just don't think getting rid of electives is the reason why 🤔.
Mormonism works really hard to find fault in all other religions. So when one finds out Morminism isn't true, that quickly ruins the idea of any other religion.
I myself have followed Joseph Smith's advice to search for truth wherever you can find it. I love Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism, and my mind was blown reading Upanishads, especially the part about the need for the divine to make sacrifice. I guess I love the truth a lot more than you is all.
Good point. Any stats on size of Unitarian Universalist congregations? Wondering how many folks “pass through” your congregation as a “rest stop” in their spiritual process?
If your belief is that your religion is the true one and that said religion then diverts from what you believe to be correct, like a religion becoming more right leaning when you lean left, to leave makes complete sense. You have a crisis of faith and the one true church leads you to question all religion.
Former catholic...they also say it is one true church. I have done research on other Christian religions and they all have corruption. That is what has kept me away from religion.
Some other factors (I was born in 1953 and went to Southern Baptist churches until I was grown): Interest in Eastern Religions, which came to some people from martial arts, or meditation, or yoga, and to others from their own curiosity and increasingly-available paperback texts related to (if not directly history and description) Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism. Curiosity, not "changing religions." But it also acted to show that huge cultures could be fine without Christianity. The anthropological type of comparative religion courses that were in universities in the 1970s helped neutralize people's fears (concerning "the only way" or hellfire or afterlife). As to the cold war, kids my age were impressed upon, in the early 1960s, that SCIENCE was what Americans needed to focus on and not much else would "win the war"-space race, technology, defense, medicine (cure cancer, all you gifted children). I think hippie-kids were resistant to being told what to do, and churches seemed increasingly to be telling people how to vote in elections, and what to vote for or against otherwise. That's irritating. And if EVERY church is doing that, and church attendees were bothered by it (those who were), changing churches didn't much help. Last month a local fairly new-age "church" near here (my daughter attends) spent a whole service telling people who to vote for, and the next week (after the election) talking about healing, and sorrow. It's not what she chose a spiritual community for. If you're both younger than I am and grew up in Utah, it's possible you weren't exposed to the things I was. I'm all the way away in New Mexico, but I know my experiences had commonalities in most of north America. Maybe not Utah so much, and less so in the Bible Belt, but please consider these other factors, too.
I learned about the religions of the world in my world history class as a freshman in college. It absolutely changed my thinking about religion. I found all the stories of how the religions began attractive, and I recognized that there was no way to know that one was the "true" religion. Kids just accept whatever religion they're born into. I later found a religion that did accept all the world's religions as equally valid, and inspired by the same Source. My mother grew up in the Southern Baptist Church in Arkansas. When we moved to California when I was 4, she never went back to church. Moving 2,000 miles away from her church was her avenue to disconnect. It's harder to leave if you stay in the town you grew up in. I think that she just didn't like being told by others how to live her life, that dancing is a sin, etc.
I brought this up at a church meeting last week. Our LDS converts leave the ward after several months at a rate of 50%. We don't retain new members well. However that is a problem that existed back in the 1990s. I also know how the church counts activity rates has changed. If a member attending sacrament meeting (and the other two hours) twice per month that counted them as an active member. However in 2024 the "active" member can be considered active if they attend once in 8 weeks.
There is a difference between absence of affiliation and an affiliation with absence. That is, there are folks that don't belong to a religion for any number of reasons including not ever being asked to join one or they can't think of one that they affiliate with at the moment. But, they seem to me to be different from folks that actively choose not to affiliate. The first is casual, the latter is active and I would love to see them counted separately and have the latter number increase the most. Thanks and cheers.
The question I was going to ask about religious affiliation was less related to happiness, but instead, related to social networks, as John brought up. You all do go into this a bit in the podcast, but it sounds like there isn't great data to fully explore this issue (that you know of). My guess is that Putnam's argument would be that society does not have well-formed ways of building these social networks outside of religion (ala bowling alone). So, I take your criticism of the methodology of the Putnam & Campbell study; but research does show that young people have fewer friends and are lonelier than in the past. Might that mean that if younger age cohorts are more likely to be religiously unaffiliated than generations past, and secular society does not have tons of social support, that the religiosity elements are (perhaps indirectly) contributing to the loneliness? Putnam was on an episode of Jon Favreau's Offline a few months ago, where he goes into these topics in a long-form discussion, which I highly recommend. Anyway, I am planning to read the book - thanks for the podcast!
You might be interested in "How Religion Evolved and Why it Endures" by Robin Dunbar. (He has lectures on youtube if you don't want to commit to a book.) It's an interesting angle, the point of view is more from biology than sociology.
I’m glad about it. Less Mormons preaching to me would be great, especially when I see the hypocrisy. I worked around them for 27 years and saw their dishonesty. There are exceptions. I have very good friends who are Mormon and don’t preach. They accept me as I am.
In Canada, many United Church of Canada and Anglican Church of Canada churches have had to close for lack of active members. Some are being used as condos or businesses. Sometimes the land under the church is used for a high rise building. Those churches would be packed on a Sunday back in the 1950s. However if you would be lucky to get 30 people at current churches. Other churches like Pentecostals are doing well. Some churches have 600 on a Sunday. Other mega churches attract even more (over 1000). However there is a trend towards secularism. Reg Bibby (sociologist) once said the "nones" were around 14% in Canada (around 1993). Today that number would be much higher. A figure of 30% nones would not surprise me. What we also see is a rise in other religions. Canada has many people new to the country, who follow Sikhism, Islam, Judaism, and others.
@@BunnyWatson-k1w I don't doubt that some churches are thriving but that may be a optical illusion. In my area, for example, there used to be a operating church every other block, but now many of them are boarded up or just gone. Other churches could have benefited by getting additional members from the closures, but the number of churches I see has dropped significantly in the past 20 years.
Wish that was the case in the south. New churches keep showing up in shopping malls and school buildings.🤦♀️ They are on every street corner and seem busy on a Sunday. Not sure how well attended the Mormon wards are here. I haven’t stepped foot in one in years.
The LDS church in Canada has seen a sharp increase in membership since 2022. This is partly due to changes in Canada's immigration policy. To deal with shortfalls in the labor market, the government took in 600,000 immigrants a year. Most come from several countries in Africa and Mexico. Some are already LDS, but most of the increase are immigrant converts. We used to baptize 5 converts a year (around 2018) but now baptize 5 or more per month. This trend is happening across the country in most stakes. My ward has seen a doubling of active members since 2022. I was watching a news story yesterday about the sharp rise in Bible sales in the U.S. There could be several reasons for this. The form of religious worship may be changing, however there must still be quest to study Christianity.
21:09-20 “ That’s just a jump that doesn’t make a lot of sense to us” I think that’s because the way that he phrased it, the way that he frames it is oversimplified and downplaying. It’s not just one individual, it’s not just one pastor. That enough would give paws, but it’s the fact that we were taught to follow Christ in that Christ transforms his followers, but then we see that the leaders of the churches and the members of the churches follow Christ less than the rest of society so it makes it harder to take church and faith seriously when it’s very apparent that church leaders and members don’t take it seriously. If you can tell that a salesman doesn’t actually believe in the product that they are selling are you going to buy that product? Then there’s the fact that people are leaving religion for a plethora of reasons, and that is just one of them, adding onto the stack, the pile. Another one is that churches tell us that God cares for us, but for a lot of us out there it becomes harder and harder to see that, because it just doesn’t seem like God is intervening to help us, it seems like God is watching suffering and it seems like “God people” are pushing the suffering in society
There is a demographic explanation without doubt: uninformed peope stay, informed people leave. What mormonism, and any "modern prophet" religion needs, is the first type.
I'm surprised you didn't address the publicity of clergy sex abuse and how many Catholics left the church because of priest sexual abuse with children. That's got to play a role in the rise of the nones
That's What Happened here In The Philippines The Catholicism has history of Condemning native Filipinos Started in 1500 Has a series of Abusive rapist nature towards the woman's I'm talking about the priest's and Governor General I was once a Catholic now converted in Mormonism why because i feel so happy to be a member and felt that this is the church of god (true).
As far as more ex Mormons leaving religion and or belief entirely, I think a large number of these are the ex Mormons who lost their belief by way of the book of Mormon. I could be wrong, but except for Islam I can't think of any other religions that base such a huge part of their belief in a different book than the Bible. I think once you've taken apart the book of Mormon it is a logical next step to take apart the Bible. So I think it's a matter of people in other Christian faiths, losing belief in their particular denomination or high demand religion, etcetera but aren't necessarily taking apart the Bible as part of their deconstruction.
Another home run by John Dehlin 🏟️ Love Dehlin’s question about “me-search” and the authentic responses by the guests. Now imagine Oaks and Ballard responding to the same question. 🤣
I am *really* sorry to say this, because I hate to critique people expressing themselves, but... has anyone else noticed a significant uptick in men using the word "right?" a whole helluva lot? It's seriously to the point that they're becoming a more masculine version of a Valley Girl peppering their speech with "like" in every other sentence. Ever since I noticed, I now can't un-hear it! It has become nails on a chalkboard for me, haha.
Once you learn to deconstruct religion and use critical thinking skills you notice the same fallacies and man made patterns in all religion. I tried to dive into Christianity, after Mormonism, but found out it was just as man made.
I just tuned in so making this comment early, BUT, how to explain all the Christian nationalists and evangelicals who appear to have boosted Trump to the presidency again? And how to explain encroachment of religion into public schools with mandatory posting of 10 commandments and teaching the Bible? Anyway, just seems like too many people ignoring constitutional prohibition of state religion.
It doesn't take a majority to put pressure on politicians. Just a few loud and well-organized people can threaten and manipulate various states. The fundamentalist Christians who have been pushing for a theocratic government don't need millions of people to agree to the details, just not to oppose the (sometimes sneaky) changes.
Except that’s not what got Trump re-elected, it was gains at the margins in demographics that vote in large numbers typically for Democrats, and turn out in working class voters. The key demographics were working class vs laptop liberals. The idea it was Christian nationalists is Rachel Maddow looney tunes.
Plenty of the Mt West Nones are libertarians as the scholar said rather than ex-Mormons or ex-religious. So many people in the mountain west are only two or three generations or so away from some cowboy or soldier or rancher who wanted to be left alone by everyone.
Will listen while on the road. People have not lost their faith, they have lost their faith jn the institutions. People are knowing more and more who they are: part of the Divine. And we do NOT need a middle MAN between our Divine Self and our human self. That's all
I am Lutheran. Christianity, true Christianity will always be with us. Jesus said: "Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [ “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” Of course this doesn't apply to Mormonism as they believe in a different Jesus and a different gospel.
Keep in mind that the quote you are attributing to Jesus was written down after his death by several decades by someone who never met him or talked to anyone who did…
Jesus also said in Matthew 16:28 that people standing there at that moment would not taste death before the Son of Man comes for his kingdom. And then...2000 some odd years passed, so...
If you had taken apart the Bible the same way many Mormons looked deeply into the Book of Mormon hearing some truths about it, you might be more open about looking into the truth about the Bible, or even reading and truly understanding the entire thing.
Your parenthetical "clarification" is a jump. "Peter" means rock. Peter wasn't the son of God; he wasn't the messiah. In English, the Latin "petra" (rock, crag) shows in "petrified" (turned to stone, or scared stiff). It's in lots (maybe all) of the Indo-European languages, in one form or in several. Greek is in the same larger language family. Aramaic is not Indo-European, but in Aramaic (if that passage ever was), it was a word that meant "rock," according to anything I've ever heard or read in over 50 years of paying attention to such things (language and religion). Found this: "In the Bible, the name "Peter" originates from the Greek word "Petros," which is a translation of the Aramaic word "Kepha," meaning "rock" or "stone"; essentially, Jesus gave the apostle Simon this new name "Peter" which is the Greek equivalent of the Aramaic "Kepha."." Might be wrong or might be right, but the rock wasn't Jesus.
Much of this discussion is really about Christianity. There are other religions that are on the rise in America. Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism are on the rise due to immigration. You can go many mosques in America that have 2000 attendees for services. Similar with some other religions.
I am an agnostic, and I define this as a belief in something but a worship of nothing. I believe in a higher power and call them God, but they could also be Allah, Buddha, Confucious, Yahweh, etc. I also believe in a heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla that I will go to after death and see my family. I don't pray, but send good thoughts when people ask for prayers. I love being open to all religions because it allows me to listen to others' perspectives without being judgemental. My belief also lets me embrace the LGBTQIA population, as I dont have an affiliation that says this respect is wrong.--- Libertarian since 1991. Currently live in Arkansas, but I am a transplant originally from California, then Arizona.
Much as I respect you all, I have problems with the guests' interpretations of the data they present. I was alive before, during, and since the cold war eneded, and have always faced scrutiny when "admitting" my atheism to someone. Many people do indeed still ask me if I'm also a communist (I'm not), and most recoil somewhat at what appears to be surprise - tinged with at least a little disgust as well. And this is a blue state!
I am in my early 30’s(born shortly after Cold War)and have rarely gotten surprise/disgust, serious push back, or “side eyeing” etc for my lifelong atheism (when it rarely comes up) and I have mostly lived in red states and have never been asked if I was a communist based off that(from my memory). You are probably just talking to old people (or would be old now) or hang out in particularly religious crowds. Or maybe I just don’t talk about atheism enough to get these people
When an exmo says, "I'd stay if LDS wasn't so controlling"- and someone replies "Have you looked at Community of Christ?" - and the exmo says "Why would I join that loser church?" - It's clear that you don't leave LDS even when you leave LDS. The truth claims, the "one true church" mentality, the "we're number 1" attitude - when they have poisoned you with that stuff from birth, you're going to be in recovery for ages.
Interesting bout Brazil My old 'Branch' in Belize has 500 members approx. attendance between 25 - 50 only went up because they decided to bus them .. they wont do activities here due to finances .. Here in Belize they go to church then go to take of their coat and go home to their live in boyfriend while still married to a man who lives else where with his girlfriend so really they do not retain here..
Can they do a study on marraige and actual statistics on divorce, premarital living together, religious vs civil marraige, etc? All the studies I have found are conducted by the church and I dont think they are accurate.
I was in LDS country leadership in Eastern Europe and only 10% were active. Among the inactives, about 7% of total membership were age 85+, with many over 100. No one had seen these people over a decade The LDS will hold on to their membership numbers as long as they can, often long after you're dead 😂.
Paul thought Jesus would return in his time, that's why he told followers to not get married, aka, don't have kids. The latter days nonsense came from the 2nd great awakening. Mormons, Adventists, JW's, all end of days cults.
"Before the Lord returns, there will be a great falling away. Nothing new here." Nothing new about hearing that. Many people have dedicated their lives to being ready for some magical going-to-heaven moment where their enemies are smitten and suffer (deservedly). It hasn't made a better world. SO many lives have come and gone in fear and sorrow (and hope of smitings) without ascensions, assumptions or raptures.
My take on the question of this episode... before watching.. this is something I have been observing with great interest for many years now. At one point in my life I studied the religions of the world and noticed a certain trend that modernity has brought to the table when it comes to theism as a whole. I think as society advances and continues to develop scientifically and philosophically, we are slowly moving past the era of religion. Nowadays, a lot of what religion practices is in a lot of ways the upholding of old standards. Old ways of life, old principles, old teachings. Most theists can acknowledge this. Take the perspective of people thousands of years ago, and the perspectives were not old-- They were revolutionary. Groundbreaking new revelations were at various points in history coming from everyone and anyone who had the courage to speak on a busy street corner. Back then, religion was innovation-- it was the way forward. The people of 2000 years ago looked back on the greeks and scoffed. The people of those times had moved past the old ways and have gotten used to it and learned its faults. Now, 2000 years later, here we are, growing tired of the old ways, getting used to the teachings of todays mainstream religions, and being able to reject it because it is increasingly obvious how dated it is becoming. If society lives another 2000 years, they will look back on whatever is modern today and laugh as to how foolish we must have been to believe such concepts. Just as we laugh at those from the past. History will repeat itself. We are just watching the transition of the relationship between society and theism taking place before our eyes. I only wonder, what could be next, and what will we never know? LONG comment but this is a topic I have given much thought to over many years and this is my first time having the opportunity to share this. Thanks if anyone reads.
I wonder how much impact a Roman emperor making Christianity the official state religion had on its growth. Prior to that, pagan cults were still going strong.
How do you define religion? If you define it as I do as a paradigm that seeks to give purpose and meaning to life, then secularity is in and of itself a religion. It’s the religion of anti religion. I would argue that woke culture etc is its own form of religion. It’s the god shaped hole psychology, humans have a need for fulfillment purpose, etc so if they’re not going to get that from a traditional religion, they’ll get it from somewhere else.
I think you're right concerning a progressive maturing of our understanding of religion. Forms of religion become dated and out of touch with newer thinking. Periodically in history a Jesus, a Buddha, a Muhammed, etc. appears with a new way of understanding religion. They are opposed by the religious leaders who have a vested interest in maintaining the old religious form, but eventually the new religious perspective succeeds because it seems more believable and more beneficial. But no society or civilization has succeeded without a common spiritual perspective or religion. It's sort of like teachers in a school, where each teacher tailors lessons adapted to the developmental stage of his/her class. Try teaching 7th graders material appropriate for 2nd graders. They will feel insulted and will not benefit from it. That seems one of the reasons people have lost interest in traditional religions. With our advanced knowledge of science compared to previous ages, and with our awareness of other religions around the world, we have a much broader view of religion and reality. To be acceptable to modern people, a religion must not contradict scientific truths. It must also promote the best interests of humanity, such as promoting unity and understanding among all people. Past religions arose at a time when the goal was tribal unity, or later unity within a city-state, and later the nation. Again, it's like children progressing through the grades of a school with lessons appropriate for each grade.
Appreciate you taking the time to zoom out for a perspective I had not previously considered 👏
The Baha'i Faith deals with this issue through the idea of 'progressive revelation'.
As a woman who works, I found my community amongst my colleagues whereas as a stay home mom it was only church members.
This seems like a huge oversimplification. I think there’s also something to be said about how massively different being part of a community because you are paid to be vs because you want to be.
@@xunzi4327much of this depends on your immediate neighbors- proximity and also mobility ease.
I think the old school belief is that church was the backbone of communities regardless of what faith tradition it is. Now people are fed up with with nonsense that is mainstream organized evangelical Christianity, and Mormonism is more conservative with a lot of strict rules that people are realizing they don’t have to follow to find a sense of belonging and community. The hard part is there those individuals who really struggle with finding a social group, but also don’t go to church, and out of all this, we’re finding more lonely people and we need a way to provide a broad sense of community without having to necessarily replace or mimics large gatherings like church at a regularly scheduled time every week.
@@CheyenneTerry970 loneliness can be a big blessing in disguise
As someone who just recently in the past 2 months started actively deconverting, I really resonate with the rationale of learning about problems with the Bible at the same time as learning about the truth claims of the LDS faith. I’ve been working through the truth claim videos with Mike and they very quickly convinced me that the truth claims were false so then I started thinking about joining my wife at church (she’s Methodist) but then I saw their series on problems with Adam and Eve maybe being a late addition, the flood and Tower of Babel being very likely based on Babylonian myths etc. And sure, you could make the argument that these aren’t fatal blows to Christianity because we can still draw lessons but that just doesn’t fit. If those stories were made up the entire time, why just not say it was a fable from the beginning? No one believes the Good Samaritan was real but it’s still an impactful and beautiful story. So it’s hard to believe in a belief system where there is a lot of evidence that a significant part of the text was just some guys riffing off the local myths, presenting it as truth but at the same time, it’s all inspired by God. That just feels like a bridge too far and very similar to the LDS early leader deceit, just 2.5 ish millennia earlier.
I’d love to interview you @elliottjohnson9100
Please email me if interested. mormonstories@gmail.com
I will note that not all Christian denominations view inspiration the same way, and are completely comfortable with those stories being myths from which we draw lessons rather than literal true stories.
But also, I entirely get where you're coming from, as a former Evangelical myself.
I would love to add my two bits in what's going on at Ensign College (more broadly BYU Pathway Programs). I actually don't think it's making degrees less qualifying to get rid of all electives. Some places in Europe have a similar set up. For example, I'm not really sure what an online creative writing class will do for someone going into business admin or accounting. When I went through BYU Pathway and graduated in 2021, I took a sh*t ton of institute credits at my local university and sent them in to BYUI. I basically did all of my electives in institute classes. I don't think that is what made me under qualified to work in my field. I think the bigger problem is leading questions in assignments for their marriage and family classes that do not help people reach neutrality and acceptance, an important part of working in mental health fields. Don't get me wrong, the education quality at church universities are questionable. I just don't think getting rid of electives is the reason why 🤔.
Mormonism works really hard to find fault in all other religions. So when one finds out Morminism isn't true, that quickly ruins the idea of any other religion.
you wrote it wrong the LDS church ruins it because it is all lies then we realize all religions are lies to control human beings
Agree and ironically it’s easy to find fault in religions🤣
I myself have followed Joseph Smith's advice to search for truth wherever you can find it. I love Bhagavad Gita of Hinduism, and my mind was blown reading Upanishads, especially the part about the need for the divine to make sacrifice. I guess I love the truth a lot more than you is all.
@@getkraken8064 “I guess I love truth more than you.”🤮
As a long time Unitarian Universalist, II must say that more progressive religions can be small and more obscure. Many people may give up the search
Good point. Any stats on size of Unitarian Universalist congregations? Wondering how many folks “pass through” your congregation as a “rest stop” in their spiritual process?
If your belief is that your religion is the true one and that said religion then diverts from what you believe to be correct, like a religion becoming more right leaning when you lean left, to leave makes complete sense. You have a crisis of faith and the one true church leads you to question all religion.
Former catholic...they also say it is one true church. I have done research on other Christian religions and they all have corruption. That is what has kept me away from religion.
Some other factors (I was born in 1953 and went to Southern Baptist churches until I was grown):
Interest in Eastern Religions, which came to some people from martial arts, or meditation, or yoga, and to others from their own curiosity and increasingly-available paperback texts related to (if not directly history and description) Confucianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism. Curiosity, not "changing religions." But it also acted to show that huge cultures could be fine without Christianity.
The anthropological type of comparative religion courses that were in universities in the 1970s helped neutralize people's fears (concerning "the only way" or hellfire or afterlife).
As to the cold war, kids my age were impressed upon, in the early 1960s, that SCIENCE was what Americans needed to focus on and not much else would "win the war"-space race, technology, defense, medicine (cure cancer, all you gifted children).
I think hippie-kids were resistant to being told what to do, and churches seemed increasingly to be telling people how to vote in elections, and what to vote for or against otherwise. That's irritating. And if EVERY church is doing that, and church attendees were bothered by it (those who were), changing churches didn't much help.
Last month a local fairly new-age "church" near here (my daughter attends) spent a whole service telling people who to vote for, and the next week (after the election) talking about healing, and sorrow. It's not what she chose a spiritual community for.
If you're both younger than I am and grew up in Utah, it's possible you weren't exposed to the things I was. I'm all the way away in New Mexico, but I know my experiences had commonalities in most of north America. Maybe not Utah so much, and less so in the Bible Belt, but please consider these other factors, too.
I learned about the religions of the world in my world history class as a freshman in college. It absolutely changed my thinking about religion. I found all the stories of how the religions began attractive, and I recognized that there was no way to know that one was the "true" religion. Kids just accept whatever religion they're born into. I later found a religion that did accept all the world's religions as equally valid, and inspired by the same Source.
My mother grew up in the Southern Baptist Church in Arkansas. When we moved to California when I was 4, she never went back to church. Moving 2,000 miles away from her church was her avenue to disconnect. It's harder to leave if you stay in the town you grew up in. I think that she just didn't like being told by others how to live her life, that dancing is a sin, etc.
I brought this up at a church meeting last week. Our LDS converts leave the ward after several months at a rate of 50%. We don't retain new members well. However that is a problem that existed back in the 1990s. I also know how the church counts activity rates has changed. If a member attending sacrament meeting (and the other two hours) twice per month that counted them as an active member. However in 2024 the "active" member can be considered active if they attend once in 8 weeks.
There is a difference between absence of affiliation and an affiliation with absence. That is, there are folks that don't belong to a religion for any number of reasons including not ever being asked to join one or they can't think of one that they affiliate with at the moment. But, they seem to me to be different from folks that actively choose not to affiliate. The first is casual, the latter is active and I would love to see them counted separately and have the latter number increase the most. Thanks and cheers.
The book covers this. FYI.
The question I was going to ask about religious affiliation was less related to happiness, but instead, related to social networks, as John brought up. You all do go into this a bit in the podcast, but it sounds like there isn't great data to fully explore this issue (that you know of). My guess is that Putnam's argument would be that society does not have well-formed ways of building these social networks outside of religion (ala bowling alone). So, I take your criticism of the methodology of the Putnam & Campbell study; but research does show that young people have fewer friends and are lonelier than in the past. Might that mean that if younger age cohorts are more likely to be religiously unaffiliated than generations past, and secular society does not have tons of social support, that the religiosity elements are (perhaps indirectly) contributing to the loneliness? Putnam was on an episode of Jon Favreau's Offline a few months ago, where he goes into these topics in a long-form discussion, which I highly recommend. Anyway, I am planning to read the book - thanks for the podcast!
Great feedback and questions @nazcraz11 !!!
You might be interested in "How Religion Evolved and Why it Endures" by Robin Dunbar. (He has lectures on youtube if you don't want to commit to a book.) It's an interesting angle, the point of view is more from biology than sociology.
I’m glad about it. Less Mormons preaching to me would be great, especially when I see the hypocrisy. I worked around them for 27 years and saw their dishonesty. There are exceptions. I have very good friends who are Mormon and don’t preach. They accept me as I am.
You can look at the number of churches closing or being repurposed to see this isnt affecting just one area of the country.
In Canada, many United Church of Canada and Anglican Church of Canada churches have had to close for lack of active members. Some are being used as condos or businesses. Sometimes the land under the church is used for a high rise building. Those churches would be packed on a Sunday back in the 1950s. However if you would be lucky to get 30 people at current churches.
Other churches like Pentecostals are doing well. Some churches have 600 on a Sunday. Other mega churches attract even more (over 1000).
However there is a trend towards secularism. Reg Bibby (sociologist) once said the "nones" were around 14% in Canada (around 1993). Today that number would be much higher. A figure of 30% nones would not surprise me.
What we also see is a rise in other religions. Canada has many people new to the country, who follow Sikhism, Islam, Judaism, and others.
@@BunnyWatson-k1w I don't doubt that some churches are thriving but that may be a optical illusion. In my area, for example, there used to be a operating church every other block, but now many of them are boarded up or just gone. Other churches could have benefited by getting additional members from the closures, but the number of churches I see has dropped significantly in the past 20 years.
Wish that was the case in the south. New churches keep showing up in shopping malls and school buildings.🤦♀️
They are on every street corner and seem busy on a Sunday.
Not sure how well attended the Mormon wards are here.
I haven’t stepped foot in one in years.
I'm just here to add that in the UK, Australia, South Africa, India, and Europe, a 3 year bachelor's degree is the norm.
The LDS church in Canada has seen a sharp increase in membership since 2022. This is partly due to changes in Canada's immigration policy. To deal with shortfalls in the labor market, the government took in 600,000 immigrants a year. Most come from several countries in Africa and Mexico. Some are already LDS, but most of the increase are immigrant converts. We used to baptize 5 converts a year (around 2018) but now baptize 5 or more per month. This trend is happening across the country in most stakes. My ward has seen a doubling of active members since 2022.
I was watching a news story yesterday about the sharp rise in Bible sales in the U.S. There could be several reasons for this. The form of religious worship may be changing, however there must still be quest to study Christianity.
Fascinating!!!
Almost my title for Tuesdays with Tim 🎉😊❤
21:09-20 “ That’s just a jump that doesn’t make a lot of sense to us” I think that’s because the way that he phrased it, the way that he frames it is oversimplified and downplaying. It’s not just one individual, it’s not just one pastor. That enough would give paws, but it’s the fact that we were taught to follow Christ in that Christ transforms his followers, but then we see that the leaders of the churches and the members of the churches follow Christ less than the rest of society so it makes it harder to take church and faith seriously when it’s very apparent that church leaders and members don’t take it seriously. If you can tell that a salesman doesn’t actually believe in the product that they are selling are you going to buy that product?
Then there’s the fact that people are leaving religion for a plethora of reasons, and that is just one of them, adding onto the stack, the pile. Another one is that churches tell us that God cares for us, but for a lot of us out there it becomes harder and harder to see that, because it just doesn’t seem like God is intervening to help us, it seems like God is watching suffering and it seems like “God people” are pushing the suffering in society
There is a demographic explanation without doubt: uninformed peope stay, informed people leave. What mormonism, and any "modern prophet" religion needs, is the first type.
I'm surprised you didn't address the publicity of clergy sex abuse and how many Catholics left the church because of priest sexual abuse with children. That's got to play a role in the rise of the nones
That's What Happened here In The Philippines The Catholicism has history of Condemning native Filipinos Started in 1500 Has a series of Abusive rapist nature towards the woman's I'm talking about the priest's and Governor General I was once a Catholic now converted in Mormonism why because i feel so happy to be a member and felt that this is the church of god (true).
As far as more ex Mormons leaving religion and or belief entirely, I think a large number of these are the ex Mormons who lost their belief by way of the book of Mormon.
I could be wrong, but except for Islam I can't think of any other religions that base such a huge part of their belief in a different book than the Bible. I think once you've taken apart the book of Mormon it is a logical next step to take apart the Bible.
So I think it's a matter of people in other Christian faiths, losing belief in their particular denomination or high demand religion, etcetera but aren't necessarily taking apart the Bible as part of their deconstruction.
Another home run by John Dehlin 🏟️ Love Dehlin’s question about “me-search” and the authentic responses by the guests. Now imagine Oaks and Ballard responding to the same question. 🤣
I am *really* sorry to say this, because I hate to critique people expressing themselves, but... has anyone else noticed a significant uptick in men using the word "right?" a whole helluva lot? It's seriously to the point that they're becoming a more masculine version of a Valley Girl peppering their speech with "like" in every other sentence. Ever since I noticed, I now can't un-hear it! It has become nails on a chalkboard for me, haha.
Love this comment! Brings whole new meaning to “Mr. Right.” 🧐
Once you learn to deconstruct religion and use critical thinking skills you notice the same fallacies and man made patterns in all religion. I tried to dive into Christianity, after Mormonism, but found out it was just as man made.
I just tuned in so making this comment early, BUT, how to explain all the Christian nationalists and evangelicals who appear to have boosted Trump to the presidency again? And how to explain encroachment of religion into public schools with mandatory posting of 10 commandments and teaching the Bible? Anyway, just seems like too many people ignoring constitutional prohibition of state religion.
I came to ask the same thing.
It doesn't take a majority to put pressure on politicians. Just a few loud and well-organized people can threaten and manipulate various states.
The fundamentalist Christians who have been pushing for a theocratic government don't need millions of people to agree to the details, just not to oppose the (sometimes sneaky) changes.
I have the same questions
Except that’s not what got Trump re-elected, it was gains at the margins in demographics that vote in large numbers typically for Democrats, and turn out in working class voters. The key demographics were working class vs laptop liberals. The idea it was Christian nationalists is Rachel Maddow looney tunes.
One can only hope. 🤞🏼 Although, not fast enough!
Plenty of the Mt West Nones are libertarians as the scholar said rather than ex-Mormons or ex-religious. So many people in the mountain west are only two or three generations or so away from some cowboy or soldier or rancher who wanted to be left alone by everyone.
The sooner, the better. Nobody needs a weekly book club to be a decent person who contributes to human flourishing.
How do you contribute?
Only organized religions are loosing. Control!
Will listen while on the road. People have not lost their faith, they have lost their faith jn the institutions. People are knowing more and more who they are: part of the Divine. And we do NOT need a middle MAN between our Divine Self and our human self. That's all
It's so weird, I've never been surveyed about my religion, nor anyone in my family, how do they come up with these stats?
I am Lutheran. Christianity, true Christianity will always be with us. Jesus said: "Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [ “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”
Of course this doesn't apply to Mormonism as they believe in a different Jesus and a different gospel.
Keep in mind that the quote you are attributing to Jesus was written down after his death by several decades by someone who never met him or talked to anyone who did…
Jesus also said in Matthew 16:28 that people standing there at that moment would not taste death before the Son of Man comes for his kingdom. And then...2000 some odd years passed, so...
If you had taken apart the Bible the same way many Mormons looked deeply into the Book of Mormon hearing some truths about it, you might be more open about looking into the truth about the Bible, or even reading and truly understanding the entire thing.
Your parenthetical "clarification" is a jump. "Peter" means rock. Peter wasn't the son of God; he wasn't the messiah.
In English, the Latin "petra" (rock, crag) shows in "petrified" (turned to stone, or scared stiff). It's in lots (maybe all) of the Indo-European languages, in one form or in several. Greek is in the same larger language family.
Aramaic is not Indo-European, but in Aramaic (if that passage ever was), it was a word that meant "rock," according to anything I've ever heard or read in over 50 years of paying attention to such things (language and religion).
Found this: "In the Bible, the name "Peter" originates from the Greek word "Petros," which is a translation of the Aramaic word "Kepha," meaning "rock" or "stone"; essentially, Jesus gave the apostle Simon this new name "Peter" which is the Greek equivalent of the Aramaic "Kepha."."
Might be wrong or might be right, but the rock wasn't Jesus.
"Lutheran" is a broad category. There are some literalist high-demand denominations, and some that are almost universalist.
I could not find on "audible"....... Will it be coming to audible?
Yes
Much of this discussion is really about Christianity. There are other religions that are on the rise in America. Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism are on the rise due to immigration. You can go many mosques in America that have 2000 attendees for services. Similar with some other religions.
I am an agnostic, and I define this as a belief in something but a worship of nothing. I believe in a higher power and call them God, but they could also be Allah, Buddha, Confucious, Yahweh, etc. I also believe in a heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla that I will go to after death and see my family. I don't pray, but send good thoughts when people ask for prayers. I love being open to all religions because it allows me to listen to others' perspectives without being judgemental. My belief also lets me embrace the LGBTQIA population, as I dont have an affiliation that says this respect is wrong.--- Libertarian since 1991. Currently live in Arkansas, but I am a transplant originally from California, then Arizona.
I'm Catholic and we're seeing the same
"When death approaches any of them, they cry, “My Lord! Let me go back, (100) so I may do good in what I left behind." Quran
Thanks ya’ll
The rise of "new atheism" and its "4 horsemen" (Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens, Harris) after 9/11 seems to have been a contributor, as well.
Religion will never die.
Sad story.
Maybe religion is now is in the morning of its own resurrection🤣
This year, two wards in my TN stake were consolidated.
Good.
Ryan Cragun works at the University of Tampa? But he’s wearing fingerless gloves during this discussion?😁
That is a surprising stat! I too thought more men were leaving
Well Sorry this was happening Only In Western 😂
Much as I respect you all, I have problems with the guests' interpretations of the data they present. I was alive before, during, and since the cold war eneded, and have always faced scrutiny when "admitting" my atheism to someone. Many people do indeed still ask me if I'm also a communist (I'm not), and most recoil somewhat at what appears to be surprise - tinged with at least a little disgust as well. And this is a blue state!
Anecdotes aren’t the same as data.
I am in my early 30’s(born shortly after Cold War)and have rarely gotten surprise/disgust, serious push back, or “side eyeing” etc for my lifelong atheism (when it rarely comes up) and I have mostly lived in red states and have never been asked if I was a communist based off that(from my memory). You are probably just talking to old people (or would be old now) or hang out in particularly religious crowds. Or maybe I just don’t talk about atheism enough to get these people
It's an outdated concept
When an exmo says, "I'd stay if LDS wasn't so controlling"- and someone replies "Have you looked at Community of Christ?" - and the exmo says "Why would I join that loser church?" - It's clear that you don't leave LDS even when you leave LDS. The truth claims, the "one true church" mentality, the "we're number 1" attitude - when they have poisoned you with that stuff from birth, you're going to be in recovery for ages.
Interesting bout Brazil My old 'Branch' in Belize has 500 members approx. attendance between 25 - 50 only went up because they decided to bus them .. they wont do activities here due to finances .. Here in Belize they go to church then go to take of their coat and go home to their live in boyfriend while still married to a man who lives else where with his girlfriend so really they do not retain here..
Can they do a study on marraige and actual statistics on divorce, premarital living together, religious vs civil marraige, etc? All the studies I have found are conducted by the church and I dont think they are accurate.
who will buy his book?
Wow, getting ads almost every 5-6 minutes in this episode... that's a bit too much
I was in LDS country leadership in Eastern Europe and only 10% were active. Among the inactives, about 7% of total membership were age 85+, with many over 100. No one had seen these people over a decade The LDS will hold on to their membership numbers as long as they can, often long after you're dead 😂.
See also "The Return of Christendom" by Dr. Steve Turley. 😊😊😊
You are playing with fire saying New York University Press is better than Oxford 😂😂😂
How to take something very interesting and make it boringly academic.
😮
Before the Lord returns, there will be a great falling away. Nothing new here.
The power brokers around the world have been telling us this for over 2,000 years. Nothing new there. Keep paying the Corps.
Paul thought Jesus would return in his time, that's why he told followers to not get married, aka, don't have kids. The latter days nonsense came from the 2nd great awakening. Mormons, Adventists, JW's, all end of days cults.
"Before the Lord returns, there will be a great falling away. Nothing new here."
Nothing new about hearing that.
Many people have dedicated their lives to being ready for some magical going-to-heaven moment where their enemies are smitten and suffer (deservedly). It hasn't made a better world. SO many lives have come and gone in fear and sorrow (and hope of smitings) without ascensions, assumptions or raptures.
@@ericreed4535💯💯
When is the falling away going to begin?