Tesla's New Stance On YOUR Charging Habits & Elon Responds To Us!
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
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Hi there! Thank you for the video. Is it ok to keep charging the battery even though my battery is only at 80-100miles? Will this shorten the battery life? Or do I need to wait until I reach 20-30% before charging? have the SR+ Rated @220miles.
Like Tesla So when you took your car to Tesla did they fix it? Or did you have to do all the recalibrating your self through charge techniques because my 240 mile model three only reads 221 and I just started charging it to 90% about two weeks ago from 80%
Marky Maarty You will not significantly impact the life of your battery if you charge up again at a lower SOC. At 5:08 of this video it explains the various SOC number of cycles. 75% to 65% and back is the best, 75% to 45% and back is next, and 75% to 25% and back is 3rd best. Even 85% to 25% would be just fine, and is still going to take 2,000 cycles to reach 10% degradation. 2000 times current SR+ 250 miles is close to 500k miles or 800k kilometres. The important thing is not to charge above 90% unless you are going to drive it down to below 90% right away.
Like Tesla Can you cover charging speed ata Tesla supercharger pls?
Had a battery replacement on my S at 140,000 miles. Charged to 100% daily, ran consistently down to 20%. What prompted the replacement was the car completely shut down with 34 miles of range left. Silver lining was that Tesla upgraded at no charge from 60 kWh to a 75 since they don’t make the 60 anymore.
Tesla Rocks. I was wondering if they gave you a new badge on the back Sean.
Chris Bates they sure did!
60 and 75 were always the same batt. Just a software unlock
Does it Matter not the early models. Was truly a 60.
Sean Mitchell I knew Sean would be here!!!!!
My 2015 Model S 70D is set to charge to 90% and I plug it in every time I pull into the driveway. (unless I plan to go right back out in a few minutes.)
The car has over 35-thousand miles on it and when I fully charge it, it still shows between 236 and 240 miles which is what it showed when new.
Tesla has recommended the 90% charge for as long as I can remember and since they designed and built the car it seems one should go with their recommendation.
:) Jeff S. and Elon M. know best. :)
Sounds like a opportunity for a in car app that recommends a charging and maintenance routine based on the cars driving and charging history.
Wonderful idea, though why not have it built into Tesla's own software?
@@mark-govers from what I can tell, Tesla tries not to build in complexity with their vehicle. I wish they would give us techie owners more access and information if we wanted it, but alas they want to keep it simple.
Great idea!!!
Thanks
Love the channel. I just bought my Model 3 Performance a week ago and I can confirm they told me to charge it up to 90%.
I always charged my P85 from 2014 to 90%. My rated km's dropped from 352 at 25.000km to 336km at 172.000km. So doing fine.
i would not follow your regimen, study up on lithium batteries
This was a fantastic episode! Thanks for covering this!!!!
When I first started having concerns was when I saw 217 miles displayed range at 70% slowly drop to 198 miles at the same 70%. After a few phone calls and follow-ups, I talked to a battery tech at the Gigafactory that looked at my stats from the car and explained that my shallow daily charges were not enough to get a proper result from the algorithm the car uses. He recommended to not charge every day unless I really need the range and to run the car down to about 100 miles of range before charging again. I started doing that and after about 3-4 charges, I was back to displaying 217 miles at 70%. I recently charged to 100% to take a trip to the Tesla Fremont factory tour and the displayed range showed 309-310 miles after charging the morning we left. I still plug in every day for the convenience of pre-heat/cooling of the car or if something comes up and I decide to add a few miles I can use the app to do so. That requires me to take the car off a timed start charge and stop it from charging when I plug in to let the range get down to 100 miles before charging but I can't argue with what works.
+JeffnReno -- Very interesting.
// We're probably all good to be varying the SOC, but occasionally maintain 80-90%.
Not sure if Tesla is like this but your range based on 70% could be due to your driving habits? For instance, your drain your battery energy and range faster driving 80 mph compared to those who spend hours in traffic and are slowly going 20 mph. Thus, Tesla is telling you how far you are going to go based on how you have driven the car over time.
@@ethanrichie7022 I thought that too since that is the way my Leaf works but I've been reassured that Teslas don't work that way and my driving habits are pretty consistent. My lifetime kWh has been 225 over the first 6000 miles and never changes. I stand by what I posted and it works for me.
To be clear, what Kim is talking about here is the *calculation* of battery capacity, which is not the actual battery capacity. The reason to charge to 100% occasionally is to reset the *calculation* , and also to balance the cells in the battery pack.
Charge to 70 or 80% daily and try to keep the charge centered around 50% during a daily trip. If you need to use 30% of charge in a day, charge to 65% and discharge to 35% before charging. That's a way to maximize the long term life of the battery pack.
Jeff Dahn suggested a daily maximum of 70%. Elon suggested 80%. Either should be ok. For long trips, start with 90% or more.
Tesla recommends charging every night. If your daily driving is a short distance, then set the maximum charge to 70% or less.
We have been driving EVs for more than 20 years and have studied battery technology informally.
Loanword Eggcorn good thing u cleared it up
You seem to be suggesting that we do not recharge if we only drive a little bit and the charge drops from say 70% to 60%, as an example. Is that what you intend? That seems to contradict Tesla's guidance to "always be charging." In other words, Tesla says to charge every night, even if you only used 2-3-5% that day. Given that they have published so little guidance on this, we should be cautious about violating what little guidance they have given.
Charge everynight is ridiculous especially for those that dont drive that much 10/ 20 miles a day and/or dont have a home plug
Very helpful comment! Thank you!
@@davidbryant2872 Charge every night, but keep the limit low, like 70% or even less, if the daily distances are short.
Hi Kim! We have a Model X P100D that we purchased in June, 2018. Although we have a Tesla Charger at our warehouse, we primarily charge it every other night at the Tesla Super Charger down the street and we always charge it to 90% unless we're going on a long trip, then we charge it to 100%. After 6 months of doing this and 6,500 miles on the odometer our first FULL Charge in June resulted in 288 Miles now it's down to 287 Miles. And THANK YOU for the incredible videos we always look forward to watching!!!
Tesla S85 charged to 90% daily for 6 years, and 100% most weekends for long trips. 97% original capacity and no range loss in 4 years with this strategy. Ontario Canada.
What’s your maximum charge speed at a supercharger? Thanks
That great... We got a model 3 SR+ with only 41.9 kWh pretty much right after getting it... Warranty = up to -30% and I only am at -14% ... Not joking
I hope to get 400,000 miles from my 2019 Model 3 ! Should be easy based on this, cheers. 😀
Great video...I charge to 90% everyday and leave it plugged in. It's a new Model 3 Per+ with only 2800 miles but I am not worried in the least charging to 90% daily, especially with winter in full swing we can use that little bit extra!
I'd also like to add that if you drive a Tesla because you like how quick it is...the high state of charge does give you a bit more power. Brooks over at Dragtimes I believe it was showed no matter the SOC the instant torque is about the same however the sustained horse power as speed increases is affected...so lower SOC equals lower HP over the speed range and vice versa. Just a thought!
Damien Gambill I recall that Dyno video too, where an SOC over 80% did make more power. If I recall correctly, dropping under 60% really started to show a steep power falloff curve.
@@aussie2uGA Exactly...most people drive their Teslas and then some of us DRIVE out Teslas! I am definitely the latter so I like a higher SOC!
We charge our MX to 90% daily because my wife has a long commute. Never charged to 100% yet in our 6mos of ownership. I'll try it out to see if we have any degradation. Thanks for bringing up this topic!
BPRIME I have 10,000mi on the M3 now and have never charged to 100% either. The theory passed around was that the anode and cathodes physically expand/contract/change when fully charged or discharged. The going recommendation was keeping the battery between 85%-15% and it was happiest being stored around 50%.
If you don't need 100% it's better for the battery pack to charge to a lower level. Avoid extremes of both charge and discharge. Maximum battery life in the graph is all at 75% maximum.
2015 Model S P85D - ran Battery 5 years (53K) - working home last 2 years reduced mileage but used to drive ~ 60 miles a day - more on weekends trips anywho --- last 2 years saw degradation from 240 (88.89% or where the daily line is on the app) at times down to 230 or so --- all I did than (thanks inet) was a charge to 100% run it down as low as I could go (5 to 20 miles) for 2 or 3 cycles. boom back to 240 . Not sure of differences in model 3 (referenced in the video) but give it a try to recycle your life. Plugged in 100% at home, maybe supercharge for trips 10 times per year)
We have 5500 miles on our model 3 and we are glad that we got the long range battery. We have used a super charger 3 times on a long trip, we normally charge in our garage to 75% every 2 days or when needed. We have noticed that the cold weather really takes its toll on the battery range as we live near St Louis. Love the car.
The range in cold weather isn't really lost; it's just reduced due to cold temperatures. When the pack warms back up, it gets most of the range back.
@@LoanwordEggcorn , actually range is lost when you need to generate heat to keep the cabin comfortable and defrost the windows.
@@darrenfon Agreed, but the pack does not permanently lose capacity as a result, as long as the resulting discharge is not too extreme. What you're describing is a practical concern; some of the energy is used for heating the cabin (and the battery). I'm trying to say that the battery is not permanently damaged by cold temperatures. When it warms back up, its capacity largely returns to normal.
Live in STL as well, cold weather sucks and it has inconvenienced me a few times now. Afraid to take it on a short road trip in January due to the reduced range. Need a technological breakthrough or larger battery capacity to combat cold weather.
@@84corvan Tip: If you finish charging just before leaving on a road trip, the pack may be warmer and have more capacity.
Thanks for doing all the leg work Kim. 6 months, 22,000km, I’ve been charging 80-50% daily. 80% maxes out at 370km now. I’m going to do 90% nightly now and 100% every 3 months and will report any changes on a follow up vid. Good work.
Model 3 LR owner for 6 months. 5200 miles. Charge at home with mobile connector nearly always to 70%. Always shows 217 miles. After about 2-3 days or 100 miles, I recharge. So the battery is always 30-70% full. Only before 2 long trips did I charge to 100% and the range indicated was 312 and 307. I don’t perceive any degradation, yet. An occasional charge to 100% followed by a discharge to 10% might be a good idea. I don’t know.
David Nizel
Same here bro! 6 months, 5000 miles, 1 charge to 100% where it stopped at 97% with 307 rated. I charge to 80% daily but only use about 10%.
jujitsuboy730 So you normally charge to 80% and then recharge at 70%? I only have 705 miles on mine as it’s fairly new but I’m so confused as to what the best practices are given all these conflicting numbers lol.
@@2CommaClub Best practice is to charge every night to 70%. If you're only using 10% of charge every day, charging to 55% would actually be better. The goal is to be centered around 50% and not go either too high or too low.
@@LoanwordEggcorn That isn't what Tesla recommend, is it? They say at least 80%, and 90% is fine also. There is no information that it is good to center around 50%?
Yeah, see this is what I'm talking about I've heard just in the past day about 5-10 different opinions as to what the best practices are.. I've heard drive to 10% and charge to 90%, go from 80--30%, go from 70%-25%, go from 80-20% and then every now and then go from 5% to 100%... now keep it around 50%... I don't think there's any best practice at this point lol other than don't go to 0% to 100% to 0% every time. At least we know that much! :-p
We’re at about 9000 miles and have been charging to 85% basically since we got it. We do make trips of about 130 miles and back regularly and when we charge to 100% it says 310 miles still :)
redzombi2k lucky
If this is accurate, it would be nice if Tesla sent out some updated information on this topic. I happened to stumble on this video (thanks!) but I'd say the widespread mindset was with the original statements. I have been charging to 70% each weekend (free weekends) and discharging throughout the week. If I am causing mis-calibration issues based on what was recommended at the time....that would be nice to know.
Krahnin I agree, I’m a new Tesla owner and I work from home mostly so I don’t drive much so I often go 3-5 days before I need to charge. And I’m still using a regular outlet so I’m only getting 4-5 miles of charge per hour so I’ve been going to the nearest Supercharger station to fill up to 70-83% most of the time. I’ve only plugged in overnight at home a few times (I’ve only had the car for 2.5 weeks). I’m really wondering what the best practices are. I’m definitely thinking I’ll need to get a Tesla charger installed but I was going to wait til my 6 months of free supercharging ran out in May.
I agree. Tesla has been so silent on this topic in their owner's manual that I have always doubted the various people who self-identified as experts and claimed that this practice or that would be good for the battery. I have always been very skeptical of people telling us to "re-balance the cells" and so on, because nowhere did Tesla ever say to do that or that there was any imbalance. So if there really is new guidance, or if the guidance is different for Model 3 than for Model S/X, Tesla really has an obligation to put out the clarification in some manner that everyone gets it -- not just via social media!
I agree 100%. They should put a video or infographic or even just some text on their website stating what the official best practices are. All we can do right now is run our own experiments but I'd rather just know what to do lol.
Tesla has been telling everyone to charge to 90% when the car is delivered. A least that is what have heard most people who have taken delivery has said recently. Everyone just thought it was better from what others have said in the past so they didn't listen to their recommendation, including me. I will charge to 85-90% from now on. At this point it seems to make more sense to not charge for a while and let it go down to 20-30% before charging as well. Then, like Kim said, charge it fully and discharge it down to around 10% every 3 months.
I picked mine up in late October and was told 70-80% for daily use; 100% only for when doing long road trips. That mimics the only high profile tweet I’ve seen from Elon on the topic until this video. It sounds like Kim has confirmed with them that this has a high probability of causing mis-calibration. I don’t have time to stalk Elon on twitter, so the possibility of missing a single tweet is high. I feel the responsible thing to do would be to send an official email to owners clarifying this matter since they have, on several occasions, released information contrary to what was detailed in this video and which will seemingly lead to battery issues.
Thanks, Kim, for your dogged follow up on best Tesla charging practice. I have personally gradually found that charging my new Model 3 to 90% seems to suit my car best for my driving style and needs. You have just confirmed that what I have been doing is not only not damaging my car, but is nowTesla recommended. I also look at it this way-- My 3 is now fully charged & ready to take on whatever the day offers me, emergencies included (fires, power outages, family emergencies). To be ready only makes sense. Additionally, with a 90% charge level, I can also have some spare power to have a little driving fun with my new Tesla friend! Thanks again.
Merry Christmas!🎄
Kim talking data and Tesla makes me 😀
Now kiss
Ben's and Kim's are the best! Finally decided to subscribe! Can't wait to get my Model 3 early next year!
Lol your wife reading this comment makes her🙃
The emoji you were looking for is 🍆
What a creeper..
I charge up to 80% each night and I come back with variable SoC, my car has 130 000 km and when I charge it at 100% I can drive 350km. I have a 85kWh battery in a 2013 signature model s.
I charge to 90% every night (rarely do I go below 50%) and my battery retention is great. I've had my model 3 since about March and it still has a rated (100%) range of OVER 310mi - it's like 314mi. Great video, btw. Loved the updated charge info from Elon, glad he replied.
I needed this video! Thanks for the research and clarifying.
do your own research on Lithium tech
Great video! Thanks for looking into this issue. i hope the video helps to prompt Tesla to formally publish some clarified guidance.
I have a 2015 Model S and a brand new 2018 Model X. The Model S has 108K miles on it with about 80% of the miles being supercharger miles. I travel a lot for business. I have only lost about 5% on the S. My charging habit is always to 90%. I can count on my fingers the number of times I charged to 100% I routinely discharge to 10% or less on road trips. When at home I don't charge every day. Maybe 2-3 times a week, because I work out of my home when not on the road.
Unless Tesla comes out with another Model S that I just "must have", I will continue to drive the S indefinitely. If they came out with an S with over 400 miles range, and or full self driving became a reality, then I would feel compelled to buy a new one.
Kim - I have to agree with you that the Model X is the perfect family car. We love it!
Ever since I got my Model 3 since september 19, I always charged my car up to 90%. I went to 100% once so far just before I traveled. So far the numbers are ok.
I always leave my car plugged too at home (I live in an appartment).
Good luck with your web effort. 30K miles on our Model X. Loving it! The 6 weeks of waiting for delivery were filled with TeslaForum and LikeTelsa, and Tesla Bjorn. Thanks!
Thanks Ross!
One UA-camr complains that his model X is falling apart after only 6 months of ownership, how are things going your side dear Tesla owners?
What's aTelsa?
Over 100k miles and NO DEGRADATION! 2015 Model S P85DL 103,082 miles at the moment. My vehicle is rated for 253 miles but this week after a trip (and the battery pack was all warmed up from the trip) I received 254 miles at 100% that night! This vehicle sees 90% charges most nights and not too many miles during each day but gets a workout twice a month that includes 100% charging and trips that take multiple supercharger visits. I couldn't be happier and can't wait to hit 200k miles to check the degradation at that point...
Very important subject. Great post and love you wouldn't accept their explanation at face value and kept on digging.
Thank you, Professor Kim, for the learned discourse. The short version, as I see it, is that the battery likes to be between half and two thirds full most of the time, but the sensors require charging to 90% fairly regularly to record correctly. When doing that though, charge it and drive it, don't charge it and leave it overnight. Equally, it's fine to run it down to 10% or lower, but charge it up again straight away, don't leave it that empty for any lengthy period.
Tesla model 3 AWD 9/27/18 delivery. Car was factory set to 90%. Also instructed by Tesla keep the car plugged in while parked and charging to 90% daily. Now if Tesla service can get us in to fix the many delivery issues, ;)
This is fantastic news for all of us that are trying to adhere to a “best practices” charging routine! But it begs the question why the screen inside the car still shows “daily” as a much lower range and 90-100% as “trip”. Think Tesla will revise the charging screens on a future OTA update?
They sure do need to update their screen and apps if this is true for model 3 BMS.
Thank you so much for the information Kim !!!!!!
Model 3 has one of the most sophisticated battery systems in the world. The most important way to preserve the Battery is to LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE PLUGGED IN when you are not using it. This is particularly important if you are not planning to drive Model 3 for several weeks. When plugged in, Model 3 wakes up when needed to automatically maintain a charge level that maximizes the lifetime of the Battery. Note: When left idle and unplugged, your vehicle periodically uses energy from the Battery for system tests and recharging the 12V battery when necessary. There is no advantage to waiting until the Battery’s level is low before charging. In fact, the Battery performs best when charged regularly.
Haha as an engineer kinda figured this despite what I had read online about going to only 70%, batteries like being just below completely full and just above completely empty. Been charging myself to 90% daily since I got my Model 3 in September. Great video as always!
I had always been led to believe that 50% was the ideal but it seems that consistently charging to 90% doesn't hurt anything!
I have a model s with 40k mikes. I have been charging to 90% everyday and occasionally to 100%. I only have a degradation of 1 mile in the range.
13,000 miles since May and I charge to 80% and drive it down to 40-50% 5 days a week. I use the Stats app and it is showing 309 miles at 100% SoC, same when I charged to 100% a few weeks ago. So .3% degradation.
Big thanks for this... I have a 2018 S75D (now at 5k miles) and I've been charging to 80%. Drive about 80mi/day .. I never got the 259 the book claims; max is 252, but I lose 2x mi within the first 20 min of driving. Still the case. I got the car to 2% then did a full charge and no change, but only did that once. I'll start charging to 90% more often, see what happens.
Mehmetcan Karahan charge to 100% and down to 10% a couple of times and then the algorithm calculation for SoC should then be accurate. Repeat every 3 months or so
The voltage curve in the middle is relative flat so the BMS can not use the voltage to calculate the state of charge.
in order for the BMS to learn what an empty and a full battery is, it has to occasionally be fully charged and fully discharge.
The owners manual for my EV recommends a full discharge/ charge every 3 months in order for the BMS to calibrate it self..
I've got 10k miles on my 3 and have been charging at 70%. Charged to almost full Monday - I stopped charging at 301 miles and hit the road so I don't think I've had the issue. Nonetheless I am changing my habits. Thanks for this info!
Holy cow, thank you for deep diving into this and getting that data like teslanomics' Ben Sullins
When we purchased a year ago (Dec '13) they instructed us to charge to 90% for daily use and to only charge to 100% before a long trip when you would want the extra 10%.
I had the same "issue" of range loss and contacted my tesla service center. They were helpful and after cycling the pack one time, we were back to the new car range +2 miles. They told us to cycle the battery at least once a month and charge to 80% or 90% nightly. We have a MS P85 with 65K miles on her and had been living in the safe zone of 50-70% daily charge because of "things read on the internet" and yeah, just bumped her to 90%.
Makes sense. I planned on charging every few months to 100%. I noticed this when I charged at 70% for a couple weeks and noticed reported less by as much as 10 miles. A couple charges later at 90% it came back to what I expected. It does vary even at the same percent a few miles. I originally thought of only charging to 70%. Even if the battery doesn't have memory issues like old battery tech, I can seen the same thing with cell phones over the years that frequent charging helps and not dropping below 30% often unless you need to.
I have been on the Tesla Forum for 5 years now. We covered this issue in my first year. The issue has little to do with to what percentage you charge. It has to do with how often you do small usage and recharge. The range number is not ever what is actually in the battery. If we where to look at the actual power at any given time you would see the number change every time you hit the accelerator. The act of accelerating and regen. cause huge swings in voltage and amperage. This would confuse to many people. So what is done is a measurement of power put in and power put out. The software then makes a algorithmic guess as to what is left there in the moment. The algorithms round up the numbers in this process. This leads to a continually growing inaccurate number. The inaccuracies really increase when the car is recharged after many small trips. Only by running down low and filling up close to 100% can make this number more accurate. As you have seen a SC reset can also recalibrate the count. There really is no damage to the battery in this inaccurate count. However it is good to know what is the accurate count so every once in a while go be low 10% and recharge to 100% to correct the count. This is a good practice for people who are always doing small trips and then recharging.
If I'm not using the car for days and days in a row, is there any logic in keeping it plugged in all the time.? Yes I understand there's a phantom drain to keep internal systems operating and yes I understand it will keep it topped up if it drains below a certain amount, but if I'm not really too worried about that... what's the advantage of just having it plugged in versus unplugged and then just continuing to run the charge down to 10% with use etc before you actually plug it in for a recharge?? Is there any logic with having it maintained at around a certain percentage with it being plugged in and how is that any different than the algorithm interpreting this as you doing short trips and then quick recharges
@@robstern6025 I do agree that the algorithm may get more inaccuracies by keeping it plugged in for may weeks of none use. However in cold weather the car does keep the batteries from getting to cold. You may be shocked how fast the car looses energy in the cold. For me it is not worth risking to low a charge when I suddenly need to go somewhere. Also I don't want to risk a bricked or frozen battery. This is much more serious than having to do a few full to empty cycles to recalibrate the count.
Great post Tony!! This mirrors my experience so far. I drive 80+ miles per day and charge to 70% each evening. So far after 2,800 miles of ownership rated range is consistent.
Tony Parisio thank you.
@Tony Parisio, My M3 driving habits currently are typically small,
What about the 2013 18650 cells? Still charge to 90%?
really informative episode. Thanks!
Is this true of Model S and X? Or is it just the 3?
@@bayoneman and @like Tesla. Same question. Does this apply to S and X too?
Hi Kim, I have been loving your channel since before I picked up my Tesla Model X. You and your hubby helped push us over the edge to buy it.
I've had my Model X 75D for a little over 16 months now and put about 22,000 miles on it. I've had TeslaFi capturing statistics on it from the get-go.
I live pretty much around the corner from you North of Atlanta so that's my typical climate (with occasional forays to Canada and South Florida).
My charging regimen is a mix of economic vs utility. I have free charging at work and I go into the office 3 days a week. So I use TeslaFi's scheduling to:
Charge the car to 90% when I'm at work and for weekends.
Charge the car to 60% all other times.
The net result is that I seldom charge the car during the week at home. I have 15 total charges to 60% for the past 16 months while I have 319 total charges to 90%
According to TeslaFi's statistics I'm showing:
1.86% degradation for my High Range vs. Low Range (238.21-233.85)
0.19% for High Range vs Current Range (238.21-237.76)
0.03% for Starting Range vs Current Range (237.83-237.76)
So... if I'm understanding your numbers correctly, your absolute degradation is 0.03% (range on Day 1 versus range now), but your range calculations have varied as much as +0.16% to -1.67% versus the range on Day 1.
@@bigdream_dreambig Yes, the criteria seem a bit arbitrary to me but it seems this is the best we can do.
It might be more accurate to average the numbers for each month or quarter to compare since that would soften the impact of a particularly negative (or positive) outlier kind of result. But the degradation appears to be slight enough that I'm not sure it makes any kind of difference anyway.
Also, all of this is predicated on Tesla's estimated range calculations being pretty accurate as well.
So I'm going to just go with the results TeslaFi has to offer and assume that will be good enough for my purposes. Basically it's telling me that I won't be stung the way I was with my early NiCd electric drill. :)
So what about the impact of supercharging vs L2? I've heard mixed opinions about how much this affects the health of the battery. Someone should set the record straight on that one as well.
There’s a difference between perceived/calculated degradation vs real degradation. Because you cycle the battery in the middle the algorithm has less chance to see where the Voltage tapers on the characteristic curve. Therefore it miscalculates. This shouldn’t be confused with real degradation when you actually lose capacity. Cycling in the middle will throw off the algorithm but it will for sure improve lifetime cycle count. It’s just the matter of how much. The only way to measure the capacity is to run it all the way down (buffer included). The amount of buffer Tesla places is also relative to the algorithm so the car can very well shut down with 15% left if the algorithm thinks it only has 5%.
Another interesting question would be in that graph you showed, did they use one cell per data point or one per curve. Because the latter will run into the same algorithm issue when you’re doing anything other than 100%-0%. Of course I don’t doubt the trend it illustrates.
Unequivocally super informative ! Thanks You KIM, your vids are still tops !
Kim, We have a model 3 with close to 10K mikes on it. We were charging to 90% every evening but recently have tapered that back to 80%. We’ve done this because at 90% charge we found the regenerative braking wasn’t at full capacity for the first few minutes of our drive each day. For me, once I got use to full regen, I prefer it every time I drive.
I was old told by Tesla employees that the range you see in the morning before your drive is calculated by the % of your charge as well as your driving habits. So if a person accelerates hard often, has many electrical features running (air conditioning, heating etc) at 100% charge they might not see the 310 miles on the display. The shown range # offers a more realistic range based on your driving habits.
My friends just took their Model S to Mammoth and still drove 15 miles when the car showed 0% battery left. And that was in sub zero weather. Definitely nothing you should do but it definitely got reserves.
4 kWh below 0% ...if you are lucky... but dont count on it.
Suggestion: this is a really important topic and I don’t think we know all we should about the graph you showed. If you want to crush this topic, could you do a video with Jeff Dahn on Skype and have him explain this? For example is one cycle considered to be a full 310 miles or is it the distance traveled in one of the ranges shown? For example, is a 100-25 SoC cycle more miles than a 100-40 cycle? If so, no wonder the 75-65 line is the best, it would be far fewer miles. Another issue here is that there are two variables, the max charge and the amount of discharge. The lines on the graph differed in both max charge and depth of discharge, so it isn’t clear how much each influence the results. Most people drive around 33 miles a day (12k/year), or about 10% of the range of a long range model 3. So we would like to know, is there any meaningful difference between going 90-80, 80-70, or 70-60? Or should we go 90-80-70-60 then recharge to 90?
I emailed him last week but nothing as of yet. Of course Elon got back to me before Jeff. I thought that was funny. 😆
I agree, Let's see whether we can have him on this channel. Just be persistent and let him know that there are thousands of ears waiting to hear from him
I think reply provides the best insight in this conversation. I'm more interested in battery degradation over a lifetime of miles, not a lifetime of cycles. The graph is saying what we all expect, in that the battery degrades faster as you put more miles on the car. I'd rather see the x-axis measuring number of miles (or kwh), while each data point representing the percentage charge/discharge (as it already is). That is a much more fair comparison, and comparing apples to apples. Additionally (contradictory to the video) this also implies that 1000 cycles doesn't mean 300k miles for each of the data lines.
Nice Information video
I lost 10% in 30 months with 50k miles
Charge to 90% mostly, drive to 50% daily
Tesla says is fine but I don't agree
Great information and I went ahead and took a couple of screenshots! Congrats on the website! I’ll be sure to check it out.
Excellent video. The 2170s are amazing batteries. The longevity is crazy!!
Thank you for the video (and your many others) and for the information. I'm glad to hear that Tesla was able to give you information and that there is a "built in" buffer to prevent any battery issues. Living and working here in North Dakota I keep my Model 3 (Jarvis) charged nightly to about 90%-93%. I've had the vehicle for 3 months, and I haven't seen any drop in the displayed range. Only during the cold weather (today it's about 10 Fahrenheit here) do I see a loss in range. , Only if I am not able to use the 120V outlet at work to mitigate the cold weather impact do I see any limits on range. This winter will be a interesting test to see how Jarvis will handle the very cold temps here.
I believe if you can set your charge timer so that the car finishes charging just before you need the car in the morning, you may get the best range. Reason being that the pack will be warmer due to the charging.
Also unless you actually need more range, charging to a lower maximum still may be better for the battery pack life.
I always charge to 90% daily and 100% when making long trips same day. At 70k miles now with about a 3% loss in range at 100%
Wow, 1 hour of editing to 1 minute of video. Husband is totally awesome and you make very interesting videos. Thank you
#SharingTesla
Thank you for posting this. I think it is helpful for new Tesla owners that will expect to see 310 miles of range when charging to 100%. My first time charging to 100% I only saw 299 miles of range. I think I need to do the battery balancing procedure as well.
Dtube31337 how do you do the balancing procedure ?
I charge to 80% everyday and have had zero problems. I drive it down to 100-130 miles and start with 250 daily. When I do charge to 100% I get between 310-320 miles. I have over 15K miles on the car.
We get the same thing on Zero motorcycles. The fix is an occasional run up to 100% assigns leave it plugged in for a couple of days (pick cool days). It's not needed very often, maybe every 3-6 months.
80% daily charging on my model 3, which displays anywhere between 248 and 251 miles. Good, informative video.
Damn my performance has 241mi on 90%.
All this technology in a car and we can’t figure out how to charge the battery the most efficient way on its own
Every driver, trip and the climate is different. Do what is best for you, not what is best for someone else !
I follow the 90% rule. I have the M3 LR and after the range increase firmware, I still have not seen the increase. In the process of driving all the way down to 10%, fully charge back to 100% and see what happens. Very informative and helpful. Thanks Kim.
There is no 90% rule ...
I'm still going to stick charging to 60% daily and charge to 90 or 100 on trips. Hell, if after 200k miles I have 1% less degradation, worth it.
hope those 3 extra miles your battery holds is worth the hassle.
@@xyeahtony1 You act like an expending additional effort to keep it at 60%, and based on the graph in the video I'll have up to 10 miles more which can make a difference and no one really knows how much 60% vs. 90% makes after 15+ years. We've hardly had Li-ion that long.
Rocco Speranza you honestly expect to keep the car 15 years to find out? By that time better battery packs will be much less expensive to replace and the newer electric cars will be more efficient.
It sounds like the specific requirements to charge up to or discharge below to avoid inaccurate readings will just increase range anxiety more.
My M3 is also 6 months old, and I have about 9k miles on it. I've been charging at 90% every night since day one. I work about 2 hours from home. I have not seen any issues with the SoC, and still when charged at 90% it shows 279 miles. I live north of Washington DC and currently is kind of chilly around here and the battery seem to be behaving well. Great video! Thanks Kim
This has been my biggest question since delivery a month ago. Living in PA winter has set in and I am trying to precondition the battery. I set my charge at 80% to start every morning at 5am but I don’t always finish the charge if I get out the door on time. I really wish there was a definitive answer from Tesla. When I saw Elon’s tweet I was happy that I was doing the right thing. Now after watching your video I have no idea again. When charging does finish, 80% is consistently getting me 249 of estimated range so it seems in line. Any-who thanks for the video keep up the good work. I will check out the website to find out why we never hear from your hubby. We want to hear bantering!
I think you have your math wrong when looking at the charge/discharge graph. Assuming a 300 mile range when new, the 1000 cycle point does *not* represent 300,000 miles *unless* you are going from 100% to 0% on the battery (after all, that's what the 300 mile range means). So, for example, the purple line (100-50%) only represents 50% of battery charge, or 150 miles of driving. So you will reach 1000 cycles in only 150,000 miles. The most extreme (75-65%) is only using 10% of battery on each cycle, so 1000 cycles represents only 30,000 miles of driving.
I’ve had my Model 3 for 2 weeks. I plug it in to 110v every night charging at around a 5mi/hr rate. That usually results in a full charge by the next morning unless I do more than a normal day of driving (less than 50 mi). I have been on 1 road trip where I did probably a total of 2 hours of supercharging but other than that have only used 110v at home.
I have not changed the “default” setting which has the max charge set to 90% (279mi/310mi). I haven’t spoken to anyone at Tesla about it so I hope I am doing the right things here.
Thanks for you work on looking into the best practices for charging to maximize battery life! I’m counting on 150,000 miles!
My Model 3 home charging is 5/mi per hour on standard outlet. Therefore I live with range anxiety and prefer to keep it charged to 90% (278 mi.). If after a long trip going from 90% to 10% battery means it takes days to get back to full charge unless I visit a supercharger and pay extra to fill the battery. None of the comments mentioned that they trickle charge their battery like me. A Tesla rep told me the best real life test for Tesla batteries is happening through a company who sells passenger rides to Las Vegas from Los Angeles. All their Teslas get supercharged and are over 350k miles with about 10% degradation. Maybe this is a new frontier and even Tesla engineers don't know for sure battery maintenance best practices. So I guess I'll keep trickle charging to 90% and hope for the best.
You can upgrade your electrical for about $400 but you don't need the special Tesla Charger just call and electrician and tell them you want to purchase and install a NEMA 14-50 (a 220 Dryer plug) The difference is with the Tesla charger you'll get about 50/55 miles per charge hour and with the NEMA 14-50 you'll get 25/30 miles per charge hour. It's the in-between way to go. Save the stress.
@@Scottish-yg8yc It' s easy to put in a 220V line 50A. Home Depot has everything you need, just make sure to get the breaker model that fits your electrical box. Depending on where your breaker box is located, run the line from the box through the attick and down to where you install the outlet with box. Cable is 4 conductor and plug is marked with white and ground with center contacts hot and run to the breaker. I have charged with both 110 and 220 but prefer the later.
Question. Is it better to charge Low and Slow ? I charge at 28 amp for 8 hours nightly on a 35 amp double breaker with a Tesla wall charger. Is this better on the battery than if it was a 50 or 100 amp double breaker ?
Its called trickle charging on a 12v car battery
Not sure why Tesla even allows users to set a maximum amount of charge. The vehicle should know better than any of us what to do! It knows driving habits, the battery’s condition, charging history etc. If my model 3 can drive itself then it should know how to charge itself. Tesla how about a auto charge setting in the next version so that we don’t have to think about this?
Are you saying the testa is supposed to read your mind and know if you are going on a long road trip the next day, or you’re only planning on driving to the office?
Now that I think about it more, I suppose Tesla could allow your car to log in read your google calendar and predict your future driving. I don’t know, I drive Chevy EV products which are pretty “dumb” compared to Tesla
Very good point Costa. We should not be concern about charging, maybe just a bit of software upgrade could address this.
@@ericcindycrowder7482 It could actually be a much simpler algorithm to begin with, without mind reading, calendar reading, or analysis of driving patterns. It could just ask for some inputs from you (like your normal number of miles driven per day) and make calculations based on that. For uncommon long trips, you could enter a kind of override, telling it what day/time you expect to begin your long drive.
I like this auto charging idea. People like Apple products because you can just use them. In the same way. It’d be nice if you could just use a tesla without having to go out of your way to improve it with different charging.
When I go to the gas station I just stick it in and wait till it’s full... Tesla should be the same way.
Schedule it so it is fully charged just prior to leaving. If you are able to, Charge it to 80% at night, and have it start up in the morning as you are getting ready to leave. Ebike users have done this for a long time. 32,000 miles on my 50Ah pack on my ebike I built. And 4 years still have 85% capacity.
We took delivery of a M3 DM on 11/17 and have been charging to 80% every night. M-F it's my wife's daily driver and she puts about 30 miles on it daily. There have been no range discrepancies as yet, although I realize the car is essentially brand new. I'm going to follow the 90% advice based on the graphs that you shared, but I'm definitely paranoid about aging/stressing my battery prematurely. Thanks for sharing, and I'm going to scour the internet for confirmation. Keep the content coming!
Kim, I really like your new web site, you bring a lot of authenticity to the Tesla story and it's obvious that your husband is a professional the way he brings it to us, thanks to both of you. PS, love the background music!
I’ve had my model 3 for about two months now. When I got it I was told that the prevailing wisdom was to charge it to 90% and that matches what the app says as well. They placed the line between daily and trip charges at 90% on the app too.
I hear in addition to daily charge to 90% we should do occasionally drain to 10%. When is the 10% drain supposed to be done?
Hi Kim I posted this on your FB page a week or so ago when you posted this issue, I think this confirms the 90% charge theory. My Experience is 90% in the morning down to 55 to 50% or 180 to 160 miles remaining at night. I do this daily and my numbers seem pretty consistent. Actual miles driven is about 98 miles depending on traffic, temp and driving style (some times I just wanna go fast :)) Here is my original FB post. "I've been charging to 90% every day from day 1 ( 6/29/18) I drive 90+ per day in Atlanta traffic across the top end ( for you ATL folks) . About 2. 25 hrs charge time daily. So far 90% =279 on the money every morning or 310 100% if you do the math. I've taken 2 long trips totaling about 2400 miles. The first trip was 1800 the second week I had the car. The second was about 600 miles and supercharged about 9 times total for both trips. Charged to 100% for each super change session during those trips. I've driven 8996 miles total to date and still hit 279 at 90 % daily. So 5 months and almost 9000 miles in and so far I have lost 0 mi miles in charge capacity. NOTE: I use a Tesla HPWC with a 60 amp circuit and get 45 miles per hr charge rate at home. RWD LR. So, so far the my battery seems to be working a as advertised."
I feel so validated. I have been charging to 90% at home pretty much whenever I get below 200 miles of range. The lowest I have gone is about 50 miles. I set the charge to start at 2am so that there's less phantom drain when I leave for work. I have had my M3 AWD since the end of August and have only charged to 100% on 3 occasions. I have used a super charger once. I think the idea of getting the car to charge from a variety of SoCs is good advice. I think Tesla should modify the grid lines on the main screen and the app to reflect the 90% recommendation for daily charging. Now that I think about it, why would you need anything other than the two settings - 90% and 100%? You can always stop charging if you need to leave with the car before it's done.
Great video Kim. I have a 2013 MS 85 that I purchased 9 Months ago with 114k miles and now have 125K miles. I was charging each night to 70% but will now change to 90%. Over all I have about 8-9% degradation but am going to run the recalculation test mentioned and see if it improves. Either way I am still very pleased with this car. Thanks-
Fantastic round-up, Kim. Well done on the research, summary and details.
Thank you for making these videos they’re amazing
2014 Tesla S 85, 90,000 miles. Never done a reset or calibration. Daily charge to 90% and mostly going down to 55% ish, occasionally to 15% and once a months supercharge to 90% I would say minimal degradation (new 269mile, now about 235miles) a reset might be useful.
2021 Tesla Y standard range : Range is about 110miles :(; I calculated only about 44kWh capacity when it should be closer to 65kWh on a 75kWh battery). I will do the below 5% to 100% and then drive it right away and see if that does the trick. The Tesla SC has not been helpful - they are saying it will recalibrate over 6-8 weeks and to NOT wake the car but let is sit so its starts rebalancing. Confused me
Just got my model 3 mid range delivered Monday night here in Atlanta from the Roswell SC and this is fantastic news for me to hear now!! My plan was to charge every five or so days to 70-80 but now I will got sure do 90% every night !
+TheAr287 -- You're probably fine. It's all good.
// My suggestion is occasionally charge full, and then drive it down some (to 90%).
I have just over 10k mi on my m3 and have always charged to 90% with exception of road trips and my car starts off at about 278 which is pretty much in line of where it should be at 90% so maybe it is true. And thank you for this video because I was thinking of reducing it and now I won’t. With living in Dallas Fort Worth area it is easy to use a good chunk of the battery so it is nice being able to charge to 90% every night.
I've had my model 3 SR+ for only 4 months. I have over 14,000 miles on it. My daily commute is 100 miles round trip. I charge to 90% daily to have enough miles to get to work and back, plus enough miles to go places after work. Sometimes I'm an still limited as to where I can go. A long range would have been better for me, but the SR+. Was a stretch on my budget as is. My 240 Mile range has been dropping pretty fast. I'm down to 222 Mile when charging to 100% . I have tried the charge to 100% , drive it down too under 5% them charge to 100% . It's still showing 222 miles of range. That's a 7% loss in 4 months. I haven't called Tesla's yet, but I think I will.
Call Tesla and they will check your battery health
Great info. Question: Why is a headquarter approval needed for hard reset? I don’t get it!
Congrats on launching your web site! Great episode regarding best practices on charging the car. I've researched this and found so many different opinions and I'm glad you were able to pull the pertinent info together and even back it up with recorded historical data and recommendation from Elon! So 90% it is charging every night.
Thanks for this. As someone who knows this science well you had mentioned variables I never considered.i used to preach a range of 30-70% keeping your source electricity 40 amps and below for maximum life and for model s and x I stand true on this and Tesla recommendation to avoid any risk of battery replacement guaranteed out need to be keep your state of charge between 20%-80% and have most of your charges not exceeding 60 amps on the s and x and I assume it was a standard that model 3 was also held too. Oddly enough my habits have been 50-80 this meaning i should full cycle more frequently but with this from Elon I will try to get my batteries barely below 20and set limit to 85 lol
Tesla has a different electrolyte from other car manufacturers, there is a great Video on this, but its about a year old. Thanks for this data :) it's nice that you went to the source.
Tesla probably has a different everything, but Shhh...don't tell anyone.
Hi Kim, great video with a lot of useful information. So much so that I had to pause multiple times to read through everything (a good thing). I wonder if the guidance you got from Tesla and the research you provided on charge degradation applies broadly across S, X & 3 or due to newer battery chemistry of the 3 we should think of that model a bit differently? I wish Tesla would provide that level of clarity as far as best practices. Keep up the good work!
Kevin Chan
Same 😆 I had to watch it twice. Really cool.
Exactly me 3 (hehe)
I'd think this new guidance applies to the 3's only because Kim asked Tesla specifically about her M3 and got answers for it. I think the S and X still have the older cells and chemistry. However, Elon's refute of Jeff Dahn's comment is interesting because that comment was made well before the M3 came out (about 2 years ago), but without further clarifications I'd err on the side of caution and treat the S and X with the old guidance.
@@martintran602 Hey Martin, I tend to agree with you. I have both an S and a 3 so the guidance is important. I need to think about how I might handle each car differently.
I agree....but one fact that is likely to be the same for both types of cells used by Tesla is avoiding high temps and storage at high SOCs. It would be safe NOT to charge to 90% daily, if you don't need to.
Doesn’t the BMS calculate the range based on outside temperature and average consumption? Then it would be more accurate. But when recalculated to 20 degrees it’s easier to see battery degradation.
Lithium batteries are some of the most well understood devices in history, there are billions in use. The safest charge is to 40% capacity. Anything above 40% kills more capacity, permanently. NEVER EVER discharge below 20%. Below 3.0V per cell permanently destroys the battery. Realize that time is more harmful than cycles. Charge state dramatically impacts time bound losses. Stored at 100%, the minimum capacity loss is 6% annually at 32F, up to 15% annual losses stored above 80F.
I know this video is about 4 years old, but I’ve just discovered this through another website. I have a M3 with LFP battery, and it’s brand new (have picked up on 28th February), and according to the Tessie app, the battery have been degraded by 1,7 %, whilst there are several articles on the net that even the Li-ion ones are degraded by 2-3% after years, not months. 🤷♂️ I charge it 99 % type 2, SC only when on a long route, and the ranged have decreased from 440 km to 415-430 km. Any ideas?
I have had my TM3 since July 2018. I almost always charge to 80 or 85% and I have charged to 100% about 4 times. I have only used SC about a dozen times for trips between NJ, VT and Canada. I have about 8000 miles now and the last time I charged to 100% the display did show 310 miles still. When I charge to 80% my display shows 251 so I have seen no degradation yet. I will switch to 90% to see what that reveals.
Hmm. OK, so here's a question: I'm about to PCS from Virginia to Hawaii and I am heading to a (slightly longer than) 3-month-long school in-between. (I'm planning to purchase a Tesla Model 3 prior to the end of the year and I PCS in March). For long-term transport for an electric vehicle that is not being driven, what state of charge should I set the car to prior to turning it into the transport company? It will be minimally driven from March until as late as July. I have been watching tons of Tesla videos lately (yours and others). Keep up the great work.