Great podcast as always gentleman. I bought into a Cessna 182 club to help complete the remainder of my training. My flight school planes were not sufficiently equipped or available to help me get through my instrument (I have my check ride next Monday, Oct 2). I have recently gone part-time at work and am able to take the plane on my days off and just time build. I am running this 182 at an average of $113hr ($35 dry then burning around 10-13 gal per hour.) I have been extremely blessed in this club which is only 10 people who only fly here and there. Everything you are saying in this episode was things I thought through over the past year. Thank you guys for taking the time to make these and hopefully I will see you all at an FBO or in the same jet together soon
For comparison...In Canada (Toronto area) it cost $150 USD per hour to rent a c172 without an instructor, and $225 USD per hour to rent a c172 including the cost of an instructor. So $180 USD per hour is a good price.
I joined a 10 way ownership and it made it much more affordable to fly. With co-owner CFI, one can do a bulk of training at low cost and finish up at a nearby school, or checkride in your plane.
@@michaelbatshon122 I got lucky and saw a printed ad at the airport FBO. One of those message boards where people post local ads for planes for sale, services, etc. I joined a second club that I found by searching AOPA club finder. I've seen others on pilot forums from time to time. One was a great experience the other, not so much. Good luck!
This topic is exactly whats in my mind at the moment. I’m feeling the gravitational pull with each video. I’m ancient and have no real heirs and in any event they call sell an airplane they inherit. My buddy just got a 182 and his 150 he used training is available for not a lot of money.
I bought a Piper Archer III about halfway into my training. It wasn't about saving money. It was about not having to depend on the availability of rental aircraft, or the safety of them. I bought it just after I was signed off for solo flight. I logged like 100 hours in her before I even had my check ride. But the DPE said he had never been more comfortable signing someone off as he was with me. I flew daily, sometimes burning an entire load of AVgas in a single flight around my solo flight zone. Got signed off to land at every airport within. Went straight for my instrument rating after my PPL, and with the help of another pilot, got probably 50 hours under the hood during training. I spent 5 years flying that bird all over CA, over to DFW, all over DFW, and finally up to South Dakota where I sold her to a flight training outfit. (After racking up about 700hrs in her.) I'm sure I didn't save any money, but the freedom to just fly around and fiddle with my avionics, GPS, AP, etc, just couldn't have been done in rentals. I sold her to buy a house on an acre in the DFW metroplex, and I plan on someday joining a local flying club that has the exact same plane.
Great stuff guys and perfect timing for me. I've been considering this very thing but so far couldn't really make the numbers work on my own. I think the idea of fractional ownership is probably the best way to go. Less risk and expense all the way around. The trick is just finding the right people who are ready to do the same thing ;) Thanks so much for posting this and keep up the excellent content!
I bought a high performance airplane mostly for travel but its also been great doing my ifr in it and soon enough will be doing my commercial in it as well. Its definitely not cheap but well worth the price of admission
I'm 60+ with a private + instrument + high performance + complex, but I've been out of aviation for over 30 years. Now retired and able to afford it, I want to reboot my skills by flying under LSA rules for the next 200+ hours or so. This plan gets me back "in the system" (at least for VFR) and with an IFR-equipped plane would also allow me to start flying approaches and rebooting my IFR skillset. I'm thinking of something like the Pro2 model *Pipistrel Alpha Trainer.* It has Garmin WAAS GPS and is fully IFR equipped. It's even FAA certified for IFR instruction and check rides. I would much prefer to rent one of these, but the local FBO is wanting $180/hr and will not rent to an LSA pilot. Period. Seems their insurance requires a minimum of PPL with 3rd class or BasicMed. My last 3rd class was in 1991. So that means for me to fly I have no alternative but to purchase my own Alpha Trainer. At my age, I've got some 3rd class issues, though none that can't be overcome with a special issue. But that requires lots of time and also comes with its own set of risks. Sometimes it's not just a financial decision; sometimes it's buy your own or fly a drone.
I can attest to the partnership idea. It may not be easy to find your partner, but if you do, you can save big. Our operating cost is $70 per hour compared to $150 rental at the school. However, if our plane goes down for maintenance there is no flying unless you are able to still rent. You have to consider the possibility, if you’re on a tight training timeline, that you might be paying for your airplane payment, Maintenance, and still renting an aircraft if yours goes down for maintenance.
I feel like I’ve been fortunate in my flight training. The PA28-151 I fly is $140/hour and my instructor is only $40/hour. The avionics have been updated to the small Garmin setup, I believe it’s the G5? Plus the Garmin radios as well, so the aircraft is not as outdated as it could be.
In the process of buying one now. It’s been a roller coaster for sure trying to find the right one. Lot of time and money spent on pre buys/annuals. But it beats booking 2 hours of time and spending between 250-280 dollars only to get 1 hour of flying time because the first 30 minutes are spent doing pre flight checks and the last 30 are spent tying the plane back down and entering time in the log book etc.. it just seems to make a lot more sense to buy.
I fly out of an aero club in central CA and the rates are lower than most, they rent dry and with the cost of fuel I'm paying at least $160/hr. 172/piper archer might be 4 place but they don't really carry four normal sized people with full fuel. A decent ifr capable 172/Archer is going to be 100K these days. Hard to find a hangar around here and 300/month is probably the cheapest you can find.
This is a very timely episode for me, as I'm in a similar position as Karl, though I'm a bit older at 52 years old. I'm planning to start my training this spring, and I'm considering buying a Cherokee, Tomahawk, Mooney M20, or similar. I'd planned to do s because I thought the rental rates at the school I'd chosen were crazy high, at $180-190/hour for a C172; however, when you guys started talking about the cost of fuel/hour I got curious, so I called them to ask about the rates. It turns out that's a "wet" rate, including fuel and oil. So with that it seems like their rates are actually pretty good! I do still want to own a plane at some point, but I feel a lot better about the cost to rent now, so I think I can wait a bit longer.
That's for the plane. Flight Instruction is extra. Maybe $50 an hour. Now multiply that times 4 if you're flying once a week. 40yrs ago a 150/152 wet cost $14-28 per hour. My daughter decided she wants to be a pilot. I own a 182 but won't let her train in it until she gets her certificate.
I live in Phoenix, and Flight Instructors here might charge $150/hr for jets, but most schools report they charge $50-$75 / hr that I've seen on their websites. Also, pay for CFIs range from $22/hr to $30/hr and as high as $100k annually. Scottsdale and Sky Harbor are probably higher than Deer Valley, Glendale, and Falcon Field. I've got to say that, as a non-pilot, it has been quite amusing to drive by the Scottsdale airport during big events here, like the Super Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, certain concerts (Taylor Swift), and big auto auctions, where the NW side of the airport is lined with small jets and private aircraft. It's not a very big airport, but they do get a lot of jet traffic because ... hey ... it's Scottsdale. :) Maybe why their CFIs cost more. (You might not even be able to rent a C150/172 there. Cirrus has a flight training center there, and they only rent SR-22s, along with at least one other school, from what I've found so far.)
I was paying $135/hr or $150 between two airplanes before covid. Since then their prices went up. One had a prop strike recently and the owner said its not worth renting anymore with the cost of insurance. To me it made sense to get a plane, but since then I haven't been flying as much as I would want. I went to Oskosh this year and it's the 1st real long XC I've done since I got the plane. I started this business hoping that I could afford more time and pay the plane note easier but it's not the case. Winter is coming too in the North East so it's gonna be even tougher to fly. At the moment I need a transponder. Always something.
Are you guys talking about KMWO that has the airplanes you can be part of the flying club, and someone has a plane who rents to the flight club there? Because I'm planning to move down there for work soon and start training there early next year. Took a discovery flight there last year. So far it sounds like a nice club, but wondering if that is the one you're talking about and whether you know anything else about it?
Thoughts on buying a cessna 150 for around 30k-40k and doing a lease back deal. Would it pay itself off and would I be able to make money on her I plan on go into the navy so I personally wouldn't touch it for 4-5 years but definitely wanna get my private pilots license (I'm 33 and live in south Georgia)
I'm like that guy who asked that question except although the weather is bad here, I'm so glad I live in South Dakota. Costs here are low so ownership and storage is low. On the bad side finding good mechanics who are not all booked up is tough.. My brother is a mechanic in Dallas at Southwest. I hope when he retires he moves up here as he could do real well!!!
Do you need to get an annual every 100 hours? I've been looking to purchase an FAA-certified experimental, can not be used for education. However my utility will be to bust through the 500 hours to go Part 135 asap and then re-sell.
I did it. If $ is no issue, think is no brainer. If is issue, making a big gamble that no major repairs or ADs will pop. It's a bet that will either pay off big or sink you deep. Mine paid off, 30 yr old Cherokee got me 80ish hours for easy, no-sweart checkride, by the time hit 135 mins had mostly XC, night, IMC, actual coast to coast trips, and things I would have never been able to do in rentals. When multi time was hiring requirement, know a guy that bought old apache with fresh engines, flew it till engines ran out then sold it. Loss in price offset by hundreds hours multi in the book.
Short answer, YES. Long answer, If you can afford it, and you aren't going to take years to get your license. I bought a Cherokee 180 for flight training, and could have easily sold it afterwords for the same price I paid. I ended up keeping it for 15 years, and sold it for 20k less than I paid. So I basically only paid 20K for it. I would have easily spent more than that renting one for 15 years.
For comparison...In Canada (Toronto area) it cost $150 USD per hour to rent a c172 without an instructor, and $225 USD per hour to rent a c172 including the cost of an instructor. So $180 USD per hour is a good price. I heard you need to log 300 hours per year to make owning an airplane make financial sense...else it makes more sense to rent an airplane.
So it seems you gentleman haven’t looked into flight school rental costs in a while. Locally in Ga, l have about 5 options for flight training. Diamond DA20’s are the cheapest nearby. $140/hr wet Cessna 172’s(steam). $175/hr dry. Fuel additional Cessna 172’(G1000). $265/hr dry. Fuel additional. Piper 140’s(basic steam GNS430). $165/hr dry. $180/hr wet for a 172 in SoCal seems crazy low to me. Instruction here is anywhere from $50-95/hr. These are all flight school prices. There are a handful of Mom/Pops type places that are sloghtly cheaper but NOT MUCH.
Respectfully the information in this video is terrible. “It’s maybe $40/hr or I think a CFI there is like $150/hr”. Come with facts and actual actionable numbers. I’m in the DFW area. To rent a 172 or a Piper Warrior is going to be $180/hr. An instructor is $60/hr. You are going to pay BARE MINIMUM 10K to go from 0 time to a Private Certificate and that is assuming you are quick learner, do ground school on your own through an online program like Sportys or King. And do it quickly so you are learning new information each flight and not taking a 2 month break then having to relearn past lessons due to regression. An annual might be $1200-$1500 for JUST THE LABOR but once they find something it goes up from there. That price is the starting point. Hangar rental local to me is $500/month. Nothing about flying is cheap. But the quicker you do it without regression the cheaper it is. I’m a low time pilot working on toward my Commercial that passed his Instrument just shy of 3 weeks ago.
Respectfully, you guys are not really in a position to speak on this and most of your advice is way off base for a follower in California. I love the rest of your stuff where you have expertise. You should have had an expert on.
Great podcast as always gentleman. I bought into a Cessna 182 club to help complete the remainder of my training. My flight school planes were not sufficiently equipped or available to help me get through my instrument (I have my check ride next Monday, Oct 2). I have recently gone part-time at work and am able to take the plane on my days off and just time build. I am running this 182 at an average of $113hr ($35 dry then burning around 10-13 gal per hour.) I have been extremely blessed in this club which is only 10 people who only fly here and there. Everything you are saying in this episode was things I thought through over the past year. Thank you guys for taking the time to make these and hopefully I will see you all at an FBO or in the same jet together soon
This came at a perfect time! I'm looking at getting a time builder type plane too, and this gave me some great input. Thanks guys
When he said that rental price was on the upper end, all I could do was shake my head. That price is a deal on the central coast of California.
I said the same thing. In Ga that’s a steal.
For comparison...In Canada (Toronto area) it cost $150 USD per hour to rent a c172 without an instructor, and $225 USD per hour to rent a c172 including the cost of an instructor.
So $180 USD per hour is a good price.
$230/hour plus $65/hour for cfi $55/hour in hahaii so about $350/hour for schooling here
I joined a 10 way ownership and it made it much more affordable to fly. With co-owner CFI, one can do a bulk of training at low cost and finish up at a nearby school, or checkride in your plane.
Where do you find a group of people to buy a plane or a share of a plane with? Is there a FB page or something?
@@michaelbatshon122
I got lucky and saw a printed ad at the airport FBO. One of those message boards where people post local ads for planes for sale, services, etc. I joined a second club that I found by searching AOPA club finder. I've seen others on pilot forums from time to time. One was a great experience the other, not so much. Good luck!
This topic is exactly whats in my mind at the moment. I’m feeling the gravitational pull with each video. I’m ancient and have no real heirs and in any event they call sell an airplane they inherit. My buddy just got a 182 and his 150 he used training is available for not a lot of money.
I bought a Piper Archer III about halfway into my training. It wasn't about saving money. It was about not having to depend on the availability of rental aircraft, or the safety of them. I bought it just after I was signed off for solo flight. I logged like 100 hours in her before I even had my check ride. But the DPE said he had never been more comfortable signing someone off as he was with me. I flew daily, sometimes burning an entire load of AVgas in a single flight around my solo flight zone. Got signed off to land at every airport within. Went straight for my instrument rating after my PPL, and with the help of another pilot, got probably 50 hours under the hood during training. I spent 5 years flying that bird all over CA, over to DFW, all over DFW, and finally up to South Dakota where I sold her to a flight training outfit. (After racking up about 700hrs in her.) I'm sure I didn't save any money, but the freedom to just fly around and fiddle with my avionics, GPS, AP, etc, just couldn't have been done in rentals. I sold her to buy a house on an acre in the DFW metroplex, and I plan on someday joining a local flying club that has the exact same plane.
Thats a great idea to explore. Never thought of it. Another great episode! Please keep them coming.
Great stuff guys and perfect timing for me. I've been considering this very thing but so far couldn't really make the numbers work on my own. I think the idea of fractional ownership is probably the best way to go. Less risk and expense all the way around. The trick is just finding the right people who are ready to do the same thing ;) Thanks so much for posting this and keep up the excellent content!
Average basics ppl instructor fees in Oklahoma and texas are roughly 60-75 an hour now
I bought a high performance airplane mostly for travel but its also been great doing my ifr in it and soon enough will be doing my commercial in it as well. Its definitely not cheap but well worth the price of admission
A friend and I bought a 150 to get our commercial certs and build some time. We saved thousands of dollars.
I'm 60+ with a private + instrument + high performance + complex, but I've been out of aviation for over 30 years. Now retired and able to afford it, I want to reboot my skills by flying under LSA rules for the next 200+ hours or so. This plan gets me back "in the system" (at least for VFR) and with an IFR-equipped plane would also allow me to start flying approaches and rebooting my IFR skillset. I'm thinking of something like the Pro2 model *Pipistrel Alpha Trainer.* It has Garmin WAAS GPS and is fully IFR equipped. It's even FAA certified for IFR instruction and check rides. I would much prefer to rent one of these, but the local FBO is wanting $180/hr and will not rent to an LSA pilot. Period. Seems their insurance requires a minimum of PPL with 3rd class or BasicMed. My last 3rd class was in 1991.
So that means for me to fly I have no alternative but to purchase my own Alpha Trainer. At my age, I've got some 3rd class issues, though none that can't be overcome with a special issue. But that requires lots of time and also comes with its own set of risks. Sometimes it's not just a financial decision; sometimes it's buy your own or fly a drone.
I can attest to the partnership idea. It may not be easy to find your partner, but if you do, you can save big. Our operating cost is $70 per hour compared to $150 rental at the school. However, if our plane goes down for maintenance there is no flying unless you are able to still rent. You have to consider the possibility, if you’re on a tight training timeline, that you might be paying for your airplane payment, Maintenance, and still renting an aircraft if yours goes down for maintenance.
That’s a good point we should have mentioned that
My flight school in PoDunk TN is charging $165 wet for a C172N so $180 is not off. CFI is $60 per hour
I feel like I’ve been fortunate in my flight training. The PA28-151 I fly is $140/hour and my instructor is only $40/hour. The avionics have been updated to the small Garmin setup, I believe it’s the G5? Plus the Garmin radios as well, so the aircraft is not as outdated as it could be.
@@IGrockerThat’s a pretty darned good deal.
I'm in PoDunk, OK and I can get a 172N for $160 wet and about $75/hr for CFI, so those sound not horrible to me either.
where are you at?
@@IGrocker
In the process of buying one now. It’s been a roller coaster for sure trying to find the right one. Lot of time and money spent on pre buys/annuals.
But it beats booking 2 hours of time and spending between 250-280 dollars only to get 1 hour of flying time because the first 30 minutes are spent doing pre flight checks and the last 30 are spent tying the plane back down and entering time in the log book etc.. it just seems to make a lot more sense to buy.
Awesome video! And great info, thanks for the content guys 😁
I've been waiting for this one! Another great episode.
I fly out of an aero club in central CA and the rates are lower than most, they rent dry and with the cost of fuel I'm paying at least $160/hr. 172/piper archer might be 4 place but they don't really carry four normal sized people with full fuel. A decent ifr capable 172/Archer is going to be 100K these days. Hard to find a hangar around here and 300/month is probably the cheapest you can find.
Making my blue apron for dinner while gaining this knowledge.. 12 hours into my PPL! Thank you!
Couple things… at MGY City of Dayton T hangar rent is $175.00 and where is this place that will lease back our plane?
This is a very timely episode for me, as I'm in a similar position as Karl, though I'm a bit older at 52 years old. I'm planning to start my training this spring, and I'm considering buying a Cherokee, Tomahawk, Mooney M20, or similar. I'd planned to do s because I thought the rental rates at the school I'd chosen were crazy high, at $180-190/hour for a C172; however, when you guys started talking about the cost of fuel/hour I got curious, so I called them to ask about the rates. It turns out that's a "wet" rate, including fuel and oil. So with that it seems like their rates are actually pretty good! I do still want to own a plane at some point, but I feel a lot better about the cost to rent now, so I think I can wait a bit longer.
That's for the plane. Flight Instruction is extra. Maybe $50 an hour. Now multiply that times 4 if you're flying once a week.
40yrs ago a 150/152 wet cost $14-28 per hour.
My daughter decided she wants to be a pilot. I own a 182 but won't let her train in it until she gets her certificate.
I love the Cherokee 180 Sean. We have a ‘72 model G
I live in Phoenix, and Flight Instructors here might charge $150/hr for jets, but most schools report they charge $50-$75 / hr that I've seen on their websites. Also, pay for CFIs range from $22/hr to $30/hr and as high as $100k annually. Scottsdale and Sky Harbor are probably higher than Deer Valley, Glendale, and Falcon Field. I've got to say that, as a non-pilot, it has been quite amusing to drive by the Scottsdale airport during big events here, like the Super Bowl, Fiesta Bowl, certain concerts (Taylor Swift), and big auto auctions, where the NW side of the airport is lined with small jets and private aircraft. It's not a very big airport, but they do get a lot of jet traffic because ... hey ... it's Scottsdale. :) Maybe why their CFIs cost more. (You might not even be able to rent a C150/172 there. Cirrus has a flight training center there, and they only rent SR-22s, along with at least one other school, from what I've found so far.)
Good stuff. I'm training out of KHAO...which airport in cincy are you hangared?
I was paying $135/hr or $150 between two airplanes before covid. Since then their prices went up. One had a prop strike recently and the owner said its not worth renting anymore with the cost of insurance. To me it made sense to get a plane, but since then I haven't been flying as much as I would want. I went to Oskosh this year and it's the 1st real long XC I've done since I got the plane. I started this business hoping that I could afford more time and pay the plane note easier but it's not the case. Winter is coming too in the North East so it's gonna be even tougher to fly. At the moment I need a transponder. Always something.
Are you guys talking about KMWO that has the airplanes you can be part of the flying club, and someone has a plane who rents to the flight club there? Because I'm planning to move down there for work soon and start training there early next year. Took a discovery flight there last year. So far it sounds like a nice club, but wondering if that is the one you're talking about and whether you know anything else about it?
Thoughts on buying a cessna 150 for around 30k-40k and doing a lease back deal. Would it pay itself off and would I be able to make money on her I plan on go into the navy so I personally wouldn't touch it for 4-5 years but definitely wanna get my private pilots license (I'm 33 and live in south Georgia)
I'm like that guy who asked that question except although the weather is bad here, I'm so glad I live in South Dakota. Costs here are low so ownership and storage is low. On the bad side finding good mechanics who are not all booked up is tough.. My brother is a mechanic in Dallas at Southwest. I hope when he retires he moves up here as he could do real well!!!
Do you need to get an annual every 100 hours? I've been looking to purchase an FAA-certified experimental, can not be used for education. However my utility will be to bust through the 500 hours to go Part 135 asap and then re-sell.
In Southern California a Cessna 172S is being rented roughly between $165-$190 an hour
I did it. If $ is no issue, think is no brainer. If is issue, making a big gamble that no major repairs or ADs will pop. It's a bet that will either pay off big or sink you deep. Mine paid off, 30 yr old Cherokee got me 80ish hours for easy, no-sweart checkride, by the time hit 135 mins had mostly XC, night, IMC, actual coast to coast trips, and things I would have never been able to do in rentals. When multi time was hiring requirement, know a guy that bought old apache with fresh engines, flew it till engines ran out then sold it. Loss in price offset by hundreds hours multi in the book.
I’m paying $90 in CA out in the boondocks. Great stuff
QUESTION: What is the best sequence to take the flight written exams to ensure passing the 1rst time?--How soon would you take the ATP written exam?
I took 7 exams using Sheppard Air. I missed 1 question. In this order...IRA, FII, IGI, FIA, AGI, FOI, and CAX. It took 11 weeks.
Short answer, YES. Long answer, If you can afford it, and you aren't going to take years to get your license. I bought a Cherokee 180 for flight training, and could have easily sold it afterwords for the same price I paid. I ended up keeping it for 15 years, and sold it for 20k less than I paid. So I basically only paid 20K for it. I would have easily spent more than that renting one for 15 years.
For comparison...In Canada (Toronto area) it cost $150 USD per hour to rent a c172 without an instructor, and $225 USD per hour to rent a c172 including the cost of an instructor.
So $180 USD per hour is a good price. I heard you need to log 300 hours per year to make owning an airplane make financial sense...else it makes more sense to rent an airplane.
Thanks for the info
Im so upset at myself for not flying pre COVID. Prices are crazy now. A 70's Cherokee was under 50k. Now? Prices are all over the place.
Thank you, guys!
Insightful. Thank you!
Good details.
So it seems you gentleman haven’t looked into flight school rental costs in a while. Locally in Ga, l have about 5 options for flight training.
Diamond DA20’s are the cheapest nearby. $140/hr wet
Cessna 172’s(steam). $175/hr dry. Fuel additional
Cessna 172’(G1000). $265/hr dry. Fuel additional.
Piper 140’s(basic steam GNS430). $165/hr dry.
$180/hr wet for a 172 in SoCal seems crazy low to me.
Instruction here is anywhere from $50-95/hr.
These are all flight school prices. There are a handful of Mom/Pops type places that are sloghtly cheaper but NOT MUCH.
You don’t “buy” an airplane.
You buy an engine and avionics. The plane comes free
3:39 yeah the atp interview is good. But 110k is a rip off
Bruh my basic T hangar at MGY is $175.00
Respectfully the information in this video is terrible. “It’s maybe $40/hr or I think a CFI there is like $150/hr”. Come with facts and actual actionable numbers. I’m in the DFW area. To rent a 172 or a Piper Warrior is going to be $180/hr. An instructor is $60/hr. You are going to pay BARE MINIMUM 10K to go from 0 time to a Private Certificate and that is assuming you are quick learner, do ground school on your own through an online program like Sportys or King. And do it quickly so you are learning new information each flight and not taking a 2 month break then having to relearn past lessons due to regression. An annual might be $1200-$1500 for JUST THE LABOR but once they find something it goes up from there. That price is the starting point. Hangar rental local to me is $500/month. Nothing about flying is cheap. But the quicker you do it without regression the cheaper it is. I’m a low time pilot working on toward my Commercial that passed his Instrument just shy of 3 weeks ago.
Depending on where your located these numbers vary vastly.
Is 35yrs old to late to from 0 to airline
No way! Check out the video am I too old to be a pilot?
Get a 182 and make it a final bird. It’s a great bird too.
That’s exactly what I’m going to do
DA40 NG
Make sure you can pass your 3rd Class Medical!
Financial advisors aee we? smh
Respectfully, you guys are not really in a position to speak on this and most of your advice is way off base for a follower in California. I love the rest of your stuff where you have expertise. You should have had an expert on.