Це відео не доступне.
Перепрошуємо.
Overly Formal Bibles 🎩🔍📖
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 тра 2023
- Linguistic register is present in everyday language as well as in literature. For example, when we talk to our friends, we might use a more casual register, whereas when we write an academic paper, we typically use a more formal register.
In literature, authors often use different registers to convey the tone and style of their work. Ernest Hemingway, for instance, is known for his simple and direct language, which is characteristic of a more informal register. In contrast, Jane Austen's novels use a more formal register, which reflects the societal norms of the time in which she was writing.
In the context of the Bible, different parts of the text are written in different registers. The King James Version of the Bible was written in a more informal register in the 1600s, often utilizing the informal pronouns "thee" and "thou" over the formal pronouns of the day "ye" and "you". However, over time the language has become associated with a higher, more sophisticated register. This can sometimes give us the wrong impression of the text. By understanding linguistic register, we can appreciate the nuances of language and gain a deeper understanding of the Bible and other literature.
I’ve seen a few of your videos talking about the register discrepancies between the original texts and common translations - is there a translation (or multiple translations) that better matches the original for modern audiences?
Robert Alter's "The Hebrew Bible" was written with a sensitivity to the original register as well as other Hebrew literary effects (wordplay, syntax, sound-alike words...) along with an absolutely beautiful commentary on the bottom of each page explaining when there are features of the text that simply can't be translated adequately.
@@_magnify Thank you! I have added that to my list of “things to spend my disposable income on” 🤣
If you dont read it in Hebrew you are missing context English cannot provide
The Revised Standard Version is very literal, as opposed to stylistic.
@@nexusinc.4367 what did you gather from the Hebrew bible. Did you find differences that completely destroy Christianity. Just asking
"Ayo who TF told yo ass it was bare?"
And the thing is, the One asking already knew before he asked.
I want a translation like this. Does anyone know if such a translation exists?
@@MM-jf1me Heard a rumor one did but never come across an actual copy. It might just be one of those things Preachers share and embellish till it's entirely fictional.
"The Way" Bible is pretty cool. Very 70s. I liked the pictures.
Not what you would typically expect. Only Bible I know of that has a girl in go go boots with top fuel blown V-8 Dragster wheel barrel and VW bug.
@@MM-jf1meif it does it should be named King Deez's bible
@@brrrrrr DO IT
That'd be a very entertaining read.
Although I'm not sure if it could get you in trouble, as it's a sensitive topic for those who partake in its religion
And God asked Cain, “Where’s your bro, bro?” And Cain said “Bruh. Do I LOOK like his keeper?”
Iirc it was
"I'm a sheep herder, not a brother herder"
@@PrincessNinja007no, it was "am I my brother's guardian?"
Which, funny enough, relates to a firefighter mantra: "I am my brother's keeper". Each firefighter swears an oath that they hold themselves responsible for each other's lives. If someone dies, it's because you failed to keep them from danger.
My parents were both firefighters most of their lives. Nobody died on their watch.
“smh your bros blood is calling you sus”
@@jotomato😂 lol lmao 🤣
That's why "I thou thee, thou traitor" was an insult to Sir Walter Raleigh, who being a knight was normally entitled to being referred to as ye and you by the court
I live in an area of england that still uses it and when i first addressed my gfs dad with thee he said eith a straight face "has thou just called me thee?" .... "Good, i thought we weren't mates"
@@BUSHCRAPPINGthis made me laugh so hard
I had to google the difference between thou and thee.
Now the insult makes sense.
@@MistyShadowsXX_Valdemar there isnt really a difference its just a grammatical thing
@@MistyShadowsXX_Valdemar The difference between "thou" and "thee" is the same as in between "I" and "me", or "we" and "us"
"Who told you you were naked," Dumbledore asked calmly.
*running full speed* "WHO TOLD YOU YOU WERE NAKED"
"WHY ARE YOU NAKED, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS?!"
*sending 10 plagues, 2 floods, and a new red sea* "WHO TOLD YOU YOU WERE NAKED!"
*curses the land to be backbreakingly hard to tend and for childbirth to be painful and deadly* who said you naked?
That joke will forever be on the internet. We live in the best time for jokes. 😂
Actually, you even acknowledge that the translation fit did match the register, but language drift make it SEEM more formal - unless people use modern translations for modern English.
Yes, exactly! There is so much slang and texting speak that is normalized today!
I've read the KJV my whole life and I don't find it stuffy or hard to read, but I'm familiar with it. Also, I read other books that would have been written in a more formal way, so it is just normal. 🤷♀️
Why would god allow this
Yep! KJV seems more formal today than it would have seemed to the original readers- unless you grew up in a church that primarily used KJV in which case it probably sounds just like comfortable family language.
@@_magnify I did grow up in a church where the KJV was often used, but also the older gents would often pray in "King Jim" as we called it. We thought nothing of it, excepting a perception that these men were indeed attempting to add a little ritual formality by using something other than their own vernacular - so there is that (but again, "formal" in their mind only). As I said, we thought nothing of it, but I do remember as a teenager, another teenager in church for maybe their first time asked me afterwards "What the heck does "beseecheth" mean?"
Funny - you could pick the generation by the translation of their Bible. KJV, ASV, RSV, NIV. I used NIV for a long time, but have ESV and HCSB as hardcopies and all of the aforementioned and more electronically.
@@GigaBoost free will or something
"Bro who told you your snake is hanging"
This is what was actually said, all others are just mistranslated
The snake...
Mood
It was that hoe Eve
Adam eating apple🤪🤪😂😂😂
I prefer saying "to whom it will concern" in my emails. Seems just as formal, but with a very ominous undertone that makes the recipient more inclined to take every word into account rather than skimming through it
I'm going to keep that one in my back pocket for major issues that aren't my problem and also aren't going to fix themselves.
I bet no one notices. IMHO
@@crowe6961 "To whom it concerns" = not my problem, this email is the last fuck I give
When I get a note that says, "To whom it may concern," I usually decide that it doesn't concern me. So, unless directly addressed, I tend to skim through the note.
Unto whom it shall concern. 😎
Originally, the KJV was translated to be easy for the average person to understand and memorize. The average person being an English speaker from 1611
Great way to put it! Jesus needs to be our main focus. Stop arguing over things like this and preach the gospel! Pray and ask the Lord to show you the right translation to read!
@@Good_news_talkIsn't it important if different translations end up causing people to have different interpretations?
@@tily5939 ive read and compared different translations. And most of them have the same meaning and interpretation. Like I said, we need to pray and ask the Lord for wisdom and understanding. Also seek wise counsel. Wise men and women who have walked with the Lord for a while and can explain it.
@@tily5939 Obviously I'm not the one you were asking for an opinion from but just for the intent of hopefully sparking some positive thought:
Yes and no. Language drift not only shifts the register but also the message contained. Translating "old English" has created multiple versions of the Bible over the past 50 years alone (nevermind the massive numbers of translations between languages). There are many versions of modern depictions of Shakespeare, for example, yet people are still intensely encouraged to return to the original because somethings just don't "translate" since language drift often changes understood meanings as well as formality levels. (Hope this is making sense and not too wordy...trying to type this on a phone means I can't read what I've typed more than about a sentence at a time.)
My first Bible was a Living Bible, and it's paraphrased but helped a lot, it gave me a general picture. Then I got a Jack Hayford study Bible (New KJV), and an ESV after that.
I tended to get some bits of translation like in this video, from various places, including if course church, internet or private Bible study, etc.
I think no translation has the perfect meaning or footnotes, so I like a variety. Just living a prayerful life with the Holy Spirit and fasting helps, we just need enough for what He wants us to do. There's more than enough for us.
Honstly, I usually read the, "who told you, you where naked part" like a parent catching their child trying to hide something they did wrong.
Which it kinda was
I’m fairly certain that’s exactly what it was
From where did you gain an ego young man?
It was Eve! She said it!
Nuh-uh! It's not my fault, it was the snake! He told me to eat a magic apple!
WHAT DID I SAY ABOUT THOSE APPLES?!!!
Same
Jesus actually is a pretty witty guy in the Original text too. Peter's brief moment of walking on water before Christ pulling up on him like "Where'd that faith go buddy?" always get me. Sarai trying to lie to an angel of the Lord about laughing at them also cracks me up.
Indeed. When Jesus went to pray at Gethsemane and the guys fell asleep, he drew a penis on Peter's forehead with a sharpie before waking them.
That story didn't survive into _any_ of the later revisions.
... but it's still of course the etymological root for calling one's junk "my peter."
@@zedmelon They remove gold like this and wonder why the kids don’t want to go to church.
@@tonyhakston536 Precisely. Of course it might go a long way to bring back the stonings.
@@tonyhakston536 lo. and it was good.
@@zedmelonsource?
I actually did know this because i grew up Quaker.
Quakers used "plain speech" up until the eighteen hundreds or so, which was mainly a refusal to use formal language. So we get a LOT of thee's and thou's happening and are taught fairly young that it's because that speech used to be less formal.
It's a very cool fact tbh.
Amish here
Cool! Are quakers like amish or are they normal people who just have a different religion? I have never really heard of quakers IRL
The quakers are just normal people. They dont believe in organised services or mainstream doctrine. Their churches are usually not led by a priest. Anyone can talk and youre supposed to meditate on god and jesus not just pray and sing.
They are kinda like christian mystics. They believe the light of god is within everyone. @@t.n.1116
I am German and I just realised that "thou" comes from the German "du" which is basically an informal "you". I always thought that English just doesn't have a differentiation between formal and informal "you".
it comes from proto-west-germanic but yes thats cognate
It gives the accounts MUCH more context (and retention) to read them in a conversational tone. It isn’t “dumbing down.” It’s fun to teach the events as well, because those people were human too, with the same problems😂
When I teach kids about Bible storied but relay the things people said in conversational tone, they laugh uproariously but the lessons stick. Like you say, they suddenly become relatable, human characters that they can understand.
Thanks for clarifying that it wasn’t *really* the translator’s fault initially and more so something that happened with time
In every modern language class I’ve taken, (Spanish, French, German), someone always asks, “Why doesn’t English have a formal “You,” (or when did we get rid of it)? And I always immediately say, you mean, why does English *only* have formal “You.” Not many realize that the you-form we discarded, thou/thee/thy, was the informal, in favor of only using formal. Now that those are so antiquated, they have taken on a formal sound.
Yeah English You/Thee seems similar to French Vous/Tu and they only kept the plural part. Which made ME uncomfortable addressing a crowd of people, as I learned you as a singular pronoun, now we have y'all to fix that.
It’s giving, “HARRY DID YOU PUT YOUR NAME IN THE GOBLET OF FIRE!!!!?????!!!” Dombledore asked calmly
Or in the informal: Harry, didist thou put thy name in the goblet of fire?
My mother and I always started all school letters with "To whom it may concern." Because we never knew who would be reading it.
Ok but that makes that so much funnier. Like eve eats the apple and god is like "who the fuck told you you were naked??.... YOU DID WHAT?!"
I love your stuff! you make nerdy stuff about linguistics and the Bible and history- things I already love so much- even better. I learn something every episode!
@LeightonPearson I don't take him super seriously that way.. he is more like.. an obscure fun facts kind of thing... in an nerdy fun linguistics way.
You are searching for a Bible Scholar~of which there are many.
If I want Word...I go straight to the book itself!! And I have favorite preachers too. But that isn't what this is... at least for me
It’s always curious that the English formality of thou/ye, basically reversed, because “you” (the formal one) is the only one we kept. It’s also interesting, because there are parts of Brazil, where they kept “voce” but not “tu”, again, keeping only the formal one. But now that the formal is familiar, and mundane, the former informal sounds more arcane and thus more formal.
But just remember, when you’re at the ren-fair, that you would never address a superior with “thou“!
This is true. One would address family members using Thee and Thou. Mothers to children, husbands to wives. But somehow since King James, the familiar address became disused, so everyone is addressed in the formal voice.
Same with some Japanese pronouns; today's 君 "kimi" was once a noun used to address "a monarch, ruler, sovereign, (one's) master"; it now generally sounds informal (and a bit patronizing too lol)
Dutch also had that change. The most common 2nd person singular pronoun in Dutch is je. It replaced now obsolete du.
I could be mistaken, but I believe the letter we perceive as "y" in "ye olde English" is a hold over from an older runic alphabet known as thorn, and it carried the phonetics of "th" meaning it was still pronounced as "thee" and "thou."
You are slightly wrong in that "Ye" was "You", both beginning with Y, but Ye Olde Tavern is a mistranscription of "The Olde" because a form of the Old English thorn letter was stylised to look like a Y. So Ye is not Thee, but Ye *is* (wrongly) The
"Th" 2nd person pronouns are singular, while "y" 2nd person pronouns are plural. Both have significantly different words in the Scriptures' original languages of Hebrew, Syriac, and Koine Greek. Both forms of these 2nd person pronouns are still in daily use in Wales and other places throughout the realm. They are not "archaic" or "Old English" words! And technically speaking, The Authorized King James Bible Conformable To The Edition Of 1611 A.D. is a modern Bible translation.
@@PopeLando I'm not sure that thorn was stylized to look like "y." Thorn being runic, y being a Greek letter, and all the rest being latin..
if I'm being honest I don't remember this video, so I'd have to watch it again to even know why I was commenting.
@@TONY19021965 cool story, no one said the KJV was old English, though given the way modern English is spoken you'd be hard pressed to say it's not archaic..
@wpridgen4853
I never said anyone did. I just put it out there because of the statements about "Olde English." Maybe you ought to read all of the comments instead of being so quick to correct someone. Besides, what I stated is verifiable entomology, not a "cool story." But thanks for the....
Now I want Adam Sandler to play God. "AgOo! Who told you you're naked? WHO TOLD YOU, GUYS COME ON!?"
I could actually hear Adam Sandler’s voice while reading that. 😂
As a finn I've always wondered why the most popular bibles in america are written in such old english, over here they usually are written in standard contemporary finnish.
King James version: all formal-sounding
Actual modern translation: bruh who tf told you you were nakey?
Such an interesting reflection! It can also be done with Plato's dialogues in Ancient Greek, I have always found them so unnecessarily STIFF.
Yep! I remember teaching some kids the story of the storm on the Sea of Galilee. After we read the passage (in a more modern translation). I told them that the tone makes it sound like Jesus solemnly stood and declared "Peace! Be still!" but that it also says Jesus "rebuked" the waves, meaning it was more likely/just as likely Jesus being cranky after being rudely woken up from a very nice nap, standing up, and yelling "SHUT UUUUUUUP!"
I guarantee you those kids did not forget that lesson.
This is why I've been trying to learn enough Hebrew/Greek to interact with the interlinear properly. It's just not possible to perfectly convey everything across to English.
The bible is actually written in a different Hebrew then what is spoken today! The modern Hebrew is based on the bible, but you won't be able to read the bible just knowing modern Hebrew.
@@eitanromanoff730 oh yes I know that. It still helps a lot though
Just learn Hebrew. there is no greek in the bible?
Seek ye the truth and the truth shall set you free
@@wallerasNew Testament was written in Greek.
I once attended a Bible study led by a Jewish Christian who said that during Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman by the well, her tone changes from belittling to respectful, but this is lost in translation.
A Jewish Christian would have access to no better translations. The New Testament was not written in Hebrew.
And the stories are myths.
@@hjeffwallace I mean, the New Testament is certainly very embelished, but to call it all myth isn't accurate.
@@hjeffwallace First, Aramaic is closer to Hebrew than koine Greek, so a Jewish person could easily study it and learn how to read the conversation in its original language. And yes, Jesus spoke Aramaic as well as Hebrew.
It's so cute how you think that "stories are myths" thing matters to many of the faithful. You're clearly unaware how many atheists' beliefs and "facts" have been shaped by frauds. James Randi being a valid researcher of anything is a myth. He was a high school dropout with no training in how to design valid scientific tests. But since his grift conformed to their beliefs, a lot of atheists swallowed them whole instead of wondering why he would never do any tests involving actual scientific procedures. Or how so many people he tested reported he kept moving the goalposts until he found a way to make the test subjects fail and proclaimed he had demonstrated they were frauds. The fact they passed several of his badly constructed approaches never mattered. In short, clean your own house before you worry about anyone else's.
Cheers,
A polytheist who finds atheist-monotheist arguments adorably vapid
Being somewhat familiar with new modern English can be an interesting byproduct of being brought up exposed to old translations of religious texts. I was taught to read and speak both modern and new modern English asa child. For me, it made the jump to understanding the wordplay, context, and register of the works of Shakespeare much easier than for some of my classmates. At the same time, I struggle with understanding any degree of slang. It’s not the only reasons for either of those things, but it was a contributing factor.
That’s exactly why I love the HCSB version.
It reads like a modern day important text.
It’s not overly formal but it isn’t full of slang either
As a Hebrew speaker, one of the reasons I love learning Torah is how simple the language can be at times. Although Biblical Hebrew is still different from modern Hebrew, it doesn’t feel like I’m reading from a sentence written thousands of years ago
keep it up! there’s a really big need for commentary like this in the Christian community ❤
@Johnson Howard I think they want to feel relevant.
@Johnson Howard a lot of people are scared to “question the bible”, which can result in misunderstandings and mistranslations. but this isn’t really questioning the bible, just the people who translated it
@@BatTaz19 what does this mean lol
@@jadablack121 hey can you tell me is magnify a Christian. I just want to know. Im confused from all of this mistranslating in the old testament
@@jadablack121 Nothing wrong with questioning the bible either. I am a Christian... I question the meanings of it all the time. In many ways, I have "transcended" scripture... most will never achieve that.
And, of course, who can forget “Give me some soup, brother, for I am famished” instead of “Give me some of that good good red stuff”
I made this argument the other day between a friend of mine about the Bible! This is such an awesome example!
As a dyslexic the KJV, hymns, Chaucer, Shakespeare and the like including the letter sound usage made reading so much easier to manage. In third grade I also learned that my teacher had zero knowledge of English usage of that time period, I also learned that while I hated having to go to a tutor I did learn strategies for reading along with working with fractions mixing batches of cookie dough.
Thee and thou were actually the informal pronouns in archaic english; we just don't use them anymore so they seem more formal. "You" was essentially "usted" or "vous" and "thee" was "tu"
Actually, ye and you are the plural of thou and thee respectively. Each form changes according to their place in a sentence, either subject or object.
Both can be true: plural forms were more formal. For an example from the KJV, look at the translators' note to the king and then their note to the reader: they use the less formal "thee" when referring to the reader directly and the more formal "your" (majestie, highnesse, etc) when referring to the king directly.
At the time the KJV was written, common use had evolved to use "you" as a formal way of referring to a single person. However, the KJV itself _only_ uses "thou" and "you" to distinguish between the singular and the plural, respectively, to reflect similar distinctions in the pronouns of the underlying languages. It was, in a way, behind its time.
At the time of the KJV translation, thee and thou were informal means of address. It wasn’t artificially made stuffier; language just changed around it.
"I hope this email finds you well. Because I won't."
That’s actually a holdover from when English had a formal and informal tense like most other languages.
For example, in Spanish if I wanted to say “who told thee thou wast naked?” I could say “¿Quien te dijo que estabas desnudo?” As an informal question or “¿Quien le dijo que estaba desnudo?” As a formal question.
They mean that exact same thing except one is more formal and respectful than the other. In English the word “you” and it’s variants used to be the formal option but eventually completely replaced the less formal “thou”.
It’s my theory that this helped British and American ideals of social equality. Where most languages have some form of determining rank and status baked into the sentence structure of the language itself, English does not.
To the best of my knowledge, the loss of “thou” took place after the influx of people in English society towards early cities.
Rather than risk offend people who may be of a greater social position than yourself (since for most people, they had suddenly become surrounded by a comparatively massive amount of strangers in a very short amount of time), it became the safer option to just address to everyone with “ye.”
Not a tense
@@LEO_M1To "thou" someone was an insult
LMAO "the British ideal of social equality"...
Quite an interesting point. Discovered that while studying Hebrew philology. We had to do a translation of one of the books of Tora ourselves. One of the things that started making me think if I actually believed all of the stuff in that book.
Yep🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
I’m SO glad you brought up the thee/thy/thou thing. THEY’RE NOT FORMAL!!! That’s how you referred to your buds!!!
It definitely changed over the centuries-its pretty nuts. It went from informal use to “i don’t know you like that bro, dont you Thou me!” And then dropped entirely. Its kind of like Vosotros and Spanish, except today they still teach how those 2nd plural nouns are conjugated
Thanks for recognising that the King James Version was well translated. It remains by far the best English translation in spite of its faults.
Wouldn't Ye and You be pronounced Thee and Thou, because it actually wasn't a Y, but a letter we abandoned called Thorn?
Thorn is seen in þe ("the", looks like "ye" when handwritten), but the Y in the pronoun "ye" really is Y and is pronounced normally.
Common misconception. Thorn looks a lot like a y. Meaning The olde Shope looks like it's says Ye Olde Shope. But it also makes Ye and You look like Thee and Thou. Thee and Thou probably came to be from semi literate people seeing Ye and You and thinking the Y was a thorn like in The thus mispronouncing it and then it catching on in informal speak.
thou vs you is not due to a misreading of thorn. 'Thou' was the 2nd Person Nominative Singular (later, the Nom. Informal) whereas 'you' was the 2nd Person Dative Plural (later, Accusative Formal). The paradigm goes all the way back to Proto-Indo-European.
As for why they don't rhyme, they didn't have the same vowel in Old English.
PGmc þū > WGmc þū > OEng þū > MEng thou
izwiz > iwwi > ēow > you
@@girv98 thanks for that. From the different videos I had seen, I somehow just assumed that the þ -> y typographical change meant that thou and you were the same word, never thought to properly look at the etymological origin of you before now
no it isn't a variant. after all, you and ye are not formal versions of thou and thee respectively, but the reverse. you corresponds to thee and ye corresponds to thou.
New subscriber. I LOVE your channel so far ❤
I always felt that. It’s so formal that it’s inaccessible for average joes.
Jeremy R Average Joes can learn...after all, my Dad was an average Joe. He had no trouble with KJV at all. Our educational system is failing modern students with an inadequate education in the English language. (I was a teacher; don't get me started.) That said, having at least two different translations to compare will help.
Thee and thou are typically singular whereas you and ye are plural.
Exactly.
singular you started usage in the 17th century, being the formal version of thee
it eventually replaced it, and funnily enough now thee seems like the formal
Wow.
I actually learned a few things from one YT video.
From whence came your inspiration?
It was common to translate German into English the same way the KJV was written. Many languages have the plural and singular address, as well the formal or honorable authority and casual address. To translate ancient Latin or Greek (and others), the translator would use these forms.
I did know this! That's also why it can be good to read other translations of the Bible and other renderings. And to read the introductions which often have notes about the translations and some of the choices made.
I like the tue with the T-shirt. It is way of being informal and formal at the same time. They talked different in the 1600’s for sure.
My favorite is where Paul is translated as saying “refuse” when he’s talking about his own righteousness. No. He called it shit. Point blank.
“It was originally written in an informal language, but the informal language they translated it in at the time is stuffy.”
Nice video. Perfect example.
My first Bible was KJV but now I opened it again thanks to this channel and I just found myself stumped how something my child self could read easily feels so difficult now😂
Not just informal, thee and thou were singular, while you was plural.
That's why we need to always keep translating the Bible. Every 10 years or so is a good time for translating groups to release new translations. In Portuguese we have some good translations seeking to get as close of the reader as possible. But unfortunately, many people just stay with the old translations, thinking they are better or more spiritual.
One thing I also love in a good Bible translation are subnotes explaining the source of the word so that even if the way language changes, there will still be that subnote of the original Hebrew word and an explanation of what was intended with it.
It is a religious book after all, so it'd make sense if people prefer a version as close to the original as possible for symbolic or spiritual reasons, right? The main motivation behind reading it seems to be the deep religious meaning it has for a person, and not really everyday practical use. As such, I don't think constant retranslations (10 years seems a very very short time for this context) are needed to keep its symbolism.
That would make more sense for example if you produced a book called "complete guide on Python programming for Data Scientists", in which you would keep technical language matching current best practices, and you would polish, update, and add more content as the field evolved. Of course, in this case the main goal of such document would be practical and useful knowledge, and not fulfilling your personal religious, spiritual, or emotional needs.
I was so impressed when I found out years ago that thee and though we're more intimate forms of you. Made so much sense.
As a Hebrew speaker, the Bible is indeed written quite formally.. in Hebrew standards. When you try to translate, it has a tendency to loose some register..
this guy is the king of loops
Lol, when it gets to the end/beginning, that's about what I think too. 😂 It's his life's goal, that transition.
This isn't about formal or informal. Ye and you are plural, thee and thou are singular.
I have never heard this. I thought they were like tu and vous in French or tu and usted in Spanish.
Both can be true: plural forms were more formal. For an example from the KJV, look at the translators' note to the king and then their note to the reader: they use the less formal "thee" when referring to the reader directly and the more formal "your" (majestie, highnesse, etc) when referring to the king directly.
Regardless of the tone or how the words were used in English in James' time, both Hebrew and Greek have an explicit and clear distinction between the second person plural and second person singular. That distinction has been lost in modern English, but it is preserved in the usage of these words in KJV English. The comparison to Spanish would be the difference between usted and ustedes.
Plural pronouns are often considered more formal, at least in Germanic languages. German has informal du (singular you) and formal Sie (plural they) or archaic formal Ihr (plural you). Dutch has singular jij/gij (singular (technically plural) you, it replaced more informal du, just like English) and formal u (from dative/accusative of jij). Danish has informal du (singular you) and formal De (plural they, rare) and so on.
A big part of the reason I renounced Christianity is because I believe the modern church has run with so many misunderstandings of register, or just misunderstandings of what or whom a passage is referring to, and i feel like they've perpetuated and exacerbated these misunderstandings to the point that i dont know if it can be fixed within a lot of church communities. I loved the church i grew up in, but asking questions or challenging interpretations were neither encouraged nor taken seriously so it was impossible to come to my own understanding of my beliefs in that environment.
This whole time I thought I was reading the abridged version of how formal it sounded when they actually talked like that 😂.
The reason the King James translators used the informal words "Thee, Thou" is because they wanted to make the connection to God more personal.
The KJV translators were very brilliant craftsmen in many ways. However, they have their blind spots and definitely seemed to be swayed by the ruling political agenda of the day, as does any translator.
And it wound up being the wronf register
The [ Y ] in ye is actually pronounced with a (th) 'thorn' sound. That is a real Y in your side.
The "ye" he talks about in the video is the plural/formal singular second person pronoun "ye". In printing, oftentimes they were not able to use the middle english letter "þ" which made the th sound, and so replaced it with "y" turning the definite article "þe" (modern "the") into "ye" but the pronoun "ye" was never "þe" and was never pronounced with a th sound. They were spelled the same in printing, but they weren't pronounced the same.
With this knowledge, I’m gonna reread everything and give God the most conversational paraphrases I can think of.
To whom it may concern is now officially my new way of saying "Hi"
Did you not at the beginning claim that the register was off and that the KJV was too "stuffy" because it's attempt to sound "Offical" then proceeds to claim that not only KJV used improper or "slang" therefore not making it "stuffy" or "official"? Who hurt you?
To readers in the 1600s the KJV did some amazing things to match the Hebrew register, but over time, register drifts and now KJV language is associated with highbrow speech.
That's teach me to read the comments before making almost exactly the same comment.
I think he is trying to make people think about the translation - but keeps doing so by attacking or maligning the translation.
Did you hear what he said?
- In the modern day we read it in an overly formal way
- When the king james bible was written ( IN THE PAST ) thou was the everyday way to say “you” ( That doesn’t mean it was vulgar or slang )
- Now ( PRESENT ) since it has fallen out of use we read it in a way that’s would sound overly formal when compared to when the kjv was written or when compared to the hebrew text
@@hlaweardlaighonaghidau6543 It's like Spanish has "tu," which is "you" for intimates, such as family and close friends, and "usted," which is "you" for strangers. English used to be like that.
@@hlaweardlaighonaghidau6543 That sounds like what you would inject into the text as opposed to what the text is. exegesis vs eisegesis. So if it's not formal what is it?
Interesting channel bro. Just stumbled upon you
The Y in Ye is the letter called 'thorn'.
It is a lost letter of English due to printing press era. Those who did not have the 'thorn' TH symbol Y, they used the Y symbol character.
It was never said Ye (yee)... it was Y = Th = 'Th'e.
The Thorn letter is still used in Icelandic. :)
Facts!
Different "ye"
My favorite example of this is the hebrew term "משתין בקיר" which is a derogatory term for a man and is translated quite boringly into simply "male" but in hebrew means "someone who pisses onto a wall"
I love thy work!! 😉
I recall you talking about another example of the soup "me eat good good stuff" thing
I'm fascinated by the KJV because of the register! Growing up Jewish (I'm a JAtheist) everything is really conversational generally so seeking that level of formality is always weird to me
JAtheist sounds so fun to say idk why
I like the extra effort you put in to make the looping of the video go smoothly. Every time, that's commitment.
my english teacher told me that thou, thee, thine, etc. could also be used to indicate personal relationships in addition to informality
Thanks for highlighting the difference in the Authorized Version! It and Shakespeare are the last surviving instances of declined English which died during the Great Vowel Shift. So while it sounds stuffy to those of us speaking Late Modern English, it’s pretty cool to recognize even the different usage between shall/will in that translation
I can't take my eyes off the t-shirt and tie combination...
I didn't notice it until you pointed it out, but now that I see it, it is all that I see.
I'm glad I knew a couple old Yorkshire folks who said "thee" spontaneously and with closeness.
I learned something new today , thank you
Greatly appreciate your clarification on the interpretation of what really happened in the forms of the Bible.🥰
👍 Reading the Holy Bible is extremely beautiful. Thank you.
Hermeneutical exegesis is a fascinating rabbit hole to explore.
Now I'm gonna start all my emails with "to whom it may concern"
Reminds me of the Romeo and Juliet movie. Where everyone speaks in Shakespearean prose.
Somewhere out there in another universe are a world where english us extremely rudimentary and what we speak now would be too 'formal' for them too.
"a little learning is a dangerous thing"
You imbody this
The same thing happened with Shakespeare.
Most of it was written in conversational speech of the common tongue.
That's so true. People translate (sometimes) the bible and hymns so formally. Just because the original language distinguishes features, doesn't mean that we should go back and use those antiquated english equivalents. In practice this means it's not "Cast thou thy stone" but "Cast your stone". Or not "Thee adore we", but "We adore you".
The tie was a nice touch; especially when talking about register!
Very good. 👍 As someone who has exhausted the text on the word baptism & for years, I told a Greek scholar that I befriended that the KJV was written with a bias concerning baptism. I told him the text should have read "repent and be baptized INTO the name of Jesus Christ not IN the name". A watery ritual has nothing to do with salvation. Ironically he stated yes you are correct. INTO not IN would have been the correct word but stated that way it doesn't make any sense 🤕 I pointed out that is exactly why they changed it, to match their preconceived & spoon fed beliefs. Originally there was no difference between that and the verse that states there is no other name to believe in for salvation Acts 4:12. Acts 19 shows that the disciples that Paul met were disciples of John the Baptist. They had not received the holy Spirit because they were not baptized INTO the name of Jesus yet.
You guys are doing a great work keep it rolling 🙏👍
Man what I'm not registering is the Tshirt and tie combo
Your videos are super interesting, I always enjoy them. Thanks.
Awesome video! Evolution of language is always fascinating.
Many, if not most, other languages has and use words for singular 'you'.
When you're speaking with God, it's thee and thou cuz God is intimate with you. Your friends, spouse, children, servants are all thee and thou. Your boss, parents, royalty, and strangers are all you. Combination of hierarchy and intimacy.
It's so interesting that what once was considered informal is now formal because of its age
Man didnt think we'd notice the guy on the right has a foot on his right hand 💀
Since thou and all of its conjugations were the Informal way of addressing someone, or the second person singular way of addressing someone that means that the way God spoke to Adam and Eve would be a perfectly normal speaking register for the time, reflecting the original Hebrew text quite nicely
I remember a teacher back in my country (israel) when we learned about the tanach, she explained the "who told you that you're naked?" Was like if a guy woke up from being hungover, saw he was naked, and when trying to hide in the bathroom, his friend asked him "who told you that you're naked?"
This is what I love about Eugene Petersen's translation, The Message.