@gailpurcell1649, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
If double predestination was Paul’s major argument in Romans 9, wouldn’t his conclusion be, “What shall we say then? That God chooses some for heaven and others for hell, and no one can complain because that’s God sovereign choice.” And yet his conclusion is that Gentiles obtained righteousness by faith without pursuing it but Israel did not because they pursued it by works, not faith. Or is Paul concluding that Gentiles were effectually chosen for heaven and Israel was effectually chosen for hell?
Great Observation! It’s all in the context. The objection that Paul is answering from the interlocutor questions has nothing to do with double predestination. Instead, it is of course referring to Gentiles coming to God by faith, and Israel trying to do so by works, but failing because works don’t save. Of course, this does not mean that Israel was reprobated. We know from Paul’s later discourse that the acceptance of the Gospel by the Gentiles was meant to “make Israel jealous” so that they themselves would believe and be saved (Romans 11:11-14). Romans 9 is quite beautiful and hopeful for everyone when understood in the proper context.
@@GhostBearCommander Exactly! And the clay analogy is about Israel, as it is consistently in other scriptural contexts, and as Israel is the immediate context of Romans 9-11. And hardened unbelieving Israel is the immediate context of the vessels of wrath, but Paul says in Romans 11 that if they do not continue in their unbelief THEY too can be grafted back in. Vessels of wrath is not automatic reprobation to damnation. Even Paul once said that he, like the rest of humanity, was once an object of wrath prior to believing.
@soccerman1717 I said the* New Jerusalem that is in Revelation. Did he foreordain THE New Jerusalem BEFORE the foundation of the world? Meaning did God know everything there was to possibly know about the New Jerusalem BEFORE the foundation of the world?
Leighton. I am in vocational education and ministry so I’m telling you I understand your passion here. HOWEVER, Richard is also an expert. Give him some more time. I love you and your work and you frame up these awesome discussions but we need some more from Richard in this case. Grace and love from KY.
@jay1871, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved and predestined Esau to be damned...
Masterfully done. Glory to God! May he continue to use you both for his Kingdom! It is by his Spirit and giving discernment that you both are able to teach sound doctrine and even unteach false doctrine! I pray for those who the adversary is trying to deceive!
@gtaylor1009, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved and predestined Esau to be damned...
Hey Leighton, I'm loving this . . . more like a bible study, crucial to understand how Scripture is dependant upon Scripture, to explain & properly follow historical progression throughout. Richard is wonderful - excellent to not just discredit erroneous doctrine, but to follow it to proper conclusion. The more people available to help us learn this correctly, the better. Thank you!!!! BTW - I have heard Jack Hibbs properly explain Romans . . . but because it is indeed complicated & proper understanding of it is dependant upon knowing the history, it is refreshing to know "others" come to the same conclusion. Jack really doesn't target any specific "false religion" - he just purposely teaches what the Scripture says & proves it from supporting scripture - if you learn it RIGHT, there is no room for error.
@sydney.g.sloan, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned...
Calvinists claim that Calvinism comes from Paul’s apostolic interpretation of the Old Testament texts but they cannot show through any meaningful exegesis or by using a consistent hermeneutic that Paul is changing the meaning of the Old Testament texts he quotes from. This is why we must study and be good Bereans because if not we will continue to be led astray by bad theology and false doctrines.
This long form content is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but if you want this to get to a wider audience then *in addition to* this longer form content you might consider also releasing a hyper-streamlined version of this reasoning that's only a few minutes long. I'm talking about some serious fat-trimming. Someone might be able to restate the major bullet points of this 1 hour 27 long minute video on 2 or 3 minutes. With some fancy editing the same information would be packaged into a format that many, *many* times more people would find digestible.
Thank you, Brothers! Bottom line principle of understanding God's action is to realize He is absolute pure love! Nothing in His economy comes from a non-love state. John 3:16
Great teaching! I love your guest. The big fail of Calvinism is historical context. Also, salvation has always been by faith which is why Abraham is always held up by Paul. Paul's audience of "Jews" would have shredded him to pieces if he was giving a "new" or Pauline understanding of the text. The Jews knew their Scripture and it appears that Paul is moving carefully through the Scriptures to get to his grand point.
One thing I don't like about these philosophy guys, is that they try to intellectualise scripture. They almost always end up humanising God and deifying man. This is dangerous ground. Also, there is another option which I have never seen as being considered by these "philosophers" and that is that two things can be true at once. The Calvinists have predestination spot on and it most certainly harmonises with salvation by the fact that we are saved by grace and not by works lest we should boast. Free choice is "works" and therefore boasting in that choice, is glorifying man's intellect. "Oh, I made the right choice". That's humanising God and deifying man. At the same time we do have free choice to sin or not sin. Or, to drink Coke or Pepsi and I don't think Calvinists would disagree with that free will choice. So, the harmonising of those scriptures is yes, we do have free will, but it only exists outside of salvation. Two seemingly opposing things can be true at the same time and still harmonise. The third "group of scriptures" are made up of the "whosoever should believe" (will be saved) scriptures and "to save all mankind" scriptures. The "whosoever shall believe" scriptures are "all" the predestined elect or chosen ones who are called by Christ and submit to His call (not by responding by free will choice) to His call. God foreknew who the "whosoever will believes" would be. Submission is not a free will choice. Ask any UFC fighter. They submit because a power greater than them brings them to their knees so to speak. When Christ called me, a power greater than myself called the Holy Spirit, literally brought me to my knees in submission. That was not a free will human choice that I made. It was God's grace enacted by the Holy Spirit. A power great than I called the Holy Spirit made me submit. It was the best person I have ever submitted to. The "all of mankinds" group are the non-elect. And the "all of mankind" scripture is God's desire, not a literal absolute. The elect are saved. The non-elect according to Revelation will be judged on the day of Judgement according to their deeds. God desires that "all" of mankind will be saved, but also foreknew there would be those who reject Him. God foreknew the risk of "free will" and therefore made provision for that by having chosen ones (the elect) and then made provision for "all of mankind" by judging them on the Day of Judgement according to their deeds, as stated in Revelation. That harmonises free will, "saving grace" versus free will works based "choice salvation", salvation for "all" is "all" the elect and "all" the non-elect. Two things can be true at once and still harmonise.
Myrons comparison of world in John 3:16 to 1 John 2:15 makes absolutely no sense. In the gospel of John it is obviously meaning mankind, in 1 John it means the material and physical world. The same Greek word can refer to the physical world and the inhabitants of the world, depending on context. Stop the nonsense, Calvinists.
@DavidWilliams, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Remember that Herod was an Edomite King through the line of Esau, and Jesus was the King through the line of David (through Jacob). Which Kingly lineage did God nurture to bring salvation? Not the house of the strong man.
1:33:00 another issue with his reasoning is he's essentially suggesting that by "world" in John 3:16 John is not referring to the people of the world but the physical world itself. If you try to follow the rest of the verse with this logic then the understanding of the verse falls into being nonsense. After all, that would mean that God sent his son to die not for sinners, but rather for the physical world. That would mean Jesus didn't die for the elect, but rather Jesus died for the locations Toronto, Austria, Africa, etc. Clearly the context of John 3:16 has "world" referring to the people of the world.
Not only do you not let your guest speak, but you interrupt your guest and derail hit point. Now I have to find your guest's website, look for the pdf to understand his point. Very frustrating, you do this often! For the record, I think you are great, I've purchased. your books, but this an ongoing issue.
By the Calvinist usage of "love/hate" in the Jacob vs Esau situation, Then Isaac is more loving than God in that setting. "Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his venison, but Rebekah loved Jacob." According to the Calvinist standard, Isaac loved Esau a reprobate that God did not love. Is Isaac's love greater than God's love Calvinists? And what of Paul's love for Israelites, if God reprobated them and does not love them?
Going back to where the verse was quoted, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Esau are long dead. Edom became a vassal state to David’s Israelites for generations. Edom helped Babylon sack Judah for vengeance and was called out by Obadiah for committing fratricide. By the time of Malachi, Edom no longer exists as a kingdom while the Jewish exile have long returned to Judah. By Maccabees, Edomites were forced to convert to Judaism and by Jesus’ time, notable Edomites like Herod the Great were already indistinguishable from Jews.
@@AlexanderosD In some cases yes a parents love is greater than God’s love for the person. For example if a Christian has a child that is gay and never repents. The parent would love the child more than God because God is going to send them to hell.
@@williamwagoner7857 That is a syllogism To the contrary, God still loves him/her as much as He did before. I don't know why you've chosen a gay person's soul to cast into hell..as if that sin is different to any other rebellion against God's Will. Setting aside the fact thar one can live formerly as gay, yet abstain from the lifestyle and receive Christ, though he may still struggle with urges that the Lord did not remove...yet.. But it is BECAUSE of Gods love for him that He will respect this adult child's decision to reject Christ's offer of eternal life.
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi It was just an example. We could use a drunkard as well. One can be formerly gay and be saved I specifically said that didn’t repent of it.
@@williamwagoner7857where is it written that anyone is send to hell bc God doesnt love them? People are not going to heaven bc they are unbelievers, not bc they are hated by God. It is so sad that you portray God in this way. If you believe this then you probably believe God rejoices when a sinner dies and is sent to hell? God hates His enemies, but instructs His followers to love theirs...sounds completely reasonable😳
The pharasees and saducees believed that prophetic scripture had already failed because it said that the scepter would not pass from Judah until messiah came. They had lost power to rule over themselves to the Romans during the time Jesus was growing up. It was said that they had a day of mourning in sackcloth and ashes because the prophecies had failed
That lady at the begining how sad. This is why sola scriptura is so important. And being willing to look at origional languages. The english is certainly not inerrent. In each passage. I know ill piss some off with that but its true. There are mistranslation And scribal error. Origional sin doctrine was built on that latin mistranslation. It is simply a fact. Only the origional manuscripts are 100 percent without human error. The message of salvation the general story those still are inerrent. Abd this is why you exegete not eisegete
It's important that Romans 9:3 alludes to a story about idolaters being put to the death. These idolaters had a blood connection to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just like the Jews Paul is arguing with. Before Paul goes into refuting Unconditional Election by lineage in Romans 9:6-13, he has front-loaded his argument with a story of condemnation of lineage-connected Hebrews who supplanted Jesus with an idol (Colossians 1:15). Also, in Romans 9:9, Paul is saying his kinsmen of the flesh are doubting God's promise like Sarah did (Genesis 18:10-15). Verses 3 and 9 should be given focus when talking with Calvinists.
That is so interesting! Thank you! As I often say, when Paul writes an epistle it's not like he thinks to himself, "I think I'll write to (insert Church) and give them some Apostolic advice. You know, something to: (as is often said by Christians today) 'help them through their day.'" No Mostly what he writes is addressing real life issues: responding to things messengers have brought to his attention. We simply MUST understand these contexts if we are going to understand to what exactly he is driving at. So thank you again! You've helped me greatly!👍
remember - don't do what the bible says about being deceived by your own heart - don't read romans 9 - be afraid of what it says - unless you can get someone to help you MAKE it mean what you want it to mean - that way you can prove that you can do good by your own free will - - the verse that everything good comes from God - is also one of those verses that you need them to help you understand that it doesn't really mean that - they will tell you that you can do a good work and believe God - even though the bible says that believing on Jesus and faith in God IS A WORK OF GOD - and not a work of man if you do what these guys say and trust your own heart - you can make up your own mind what you want to do and what romans 9 means don't be afraid of romans 9 - just don't read it and think that you can figure it out on your own - because if you don't have these guys to help you make sense - you might think that God decides who to have mercy upon - for His reasons and His reasons only - take jonah for example - he told God he is not going to go to nineveh - he has a free will and he knew that he can do whatever he wants to do and God will never try to make him do what is right - these guys tell you - don't worry about the bible being all about the gospel everywhere all the time - the story of jonah is just a fun story - it doesn't have anything to do with being saved - DOES IT ? - when you realize that the whole bible IS about the gospel and ALL the stories are about who God is and what God does - and the story of salvation and Jesus - then you will see that romans 9 is nothing to be afraid of because when you know what it says - that God makes ALL the choices for EVERYTHING good that ever happens then you can see the gospel in all the stories in the bible - the story of jonah - it is not just a fun story about a man from a long time ago - it is a story about every person who ever lived - - until God convicts us of our sins - by giving us faith and His Holy Spirit - we do not want to do what He tells us to do - we want to do things our way - we want to believe in a god that will let us do what we want to do - if you read romans 9 and if you get the wrong idea because you listened to all the fixing that these guys tell you do - so that you won't believe what it says - you will believe what you want it to say - then you cannot understand the story of jonah because you will not be able to understand it is about salvation - you won't be able to understand many stories that are about salvation - because you will continue to believe that the gospel is human centered and not God centered - as long as you think that salvation is up to you - you will be missing what the bible is telling you - - it is telling you that there are none who seek after God - no not one - we all have gone astray - ON PURPOSE by our own free will - just like jonah - - the reason is - that our spirit is dead in trespasses and sins - we have no way to understand ANYTHING spiritual until God gives us His Spirit . that is what romans 9 tells you PLAINLY in simple language - - you have to listen to a bunch of FIXERS to make you think it means something other than what it says
Calvinists misunderstand what God, "ordained." If God did not want humans to make certain choices, He would have created humans unable to make certain choices. But that IS NOT what God created. He created Adam and Eve with will and desire. Adam and Eve freely chose (will) to disobey His command, which they did because they DESIRED to be more powerful than God. God did NOT ordain their choice, He ordained their ability to choose the desire they would pursue.
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi Your important point is? Calvinism is not supported by scripture.....and this was just one belief (total depravity) that's in error. Human nature never changed.
you might be AFRAID to read romans 9 because without these guys help to make it mean what you / they want it to mean - you might get the idea that it means what it says
Well thats true for most of the bible provided that your knowledge is in the right place. You can definitely have a wrong fear of romans 9 if you are coming at it from a calvinist perspective. I used to not like reading it because I didn't understand it. I thought it didn't add up with the rest of scripture. Until I started watching Arminian-calvinist debates. Now it fits right in.
@@JG-id5vi, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
The sovereignity of God Overrules the whims of man Are we wiser than God Should he have saved any! God was in the heavens long Before man was created 6000 years ago!
Does God's Sovereignty override His own Soveriegnty? 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
@@angloaust1575of their own choosing, God isn’t condemning anyone to hell, a person condemns themselves, by saying that not all will be saved is true but it is the person that chooses to condemn themselves, God gives people a chance. He’s not sending them to hell on the basis of something he makes them do and then condemns them to hell for it. There is no logic in that and you can’t use” Well he’s God, he can do what he wants. “ You better have a better explanation than that.
why do you claim that it is a sin for God to hate ? why are you claiming that we are saying God can do that sin - when we told you it is not a sin for God to hate - you said it is a sin for God to hate and that is why you don't believe the bible when it plainly says that God hated . - the answer that paul gave you about your notions is - keep your mouth shut and don't you dare question what God does or try to claim it is evil - it is good for God to hate whomever He chooses to hate - - you start talking about innocent - there is none innocent - maybe you missed that part in the bible - or you made it work out the way you want it to work out because you think God needs you to protect Him from doing anything that YOU CLAIM is evil for Him to do .
I think that God is playing off of what’s foreseen by him. Easu was living a life of sin and though Jacob isn’t perfect, the life is different. God knew that no one would inherit the birth right due to the decision of his older bother. Gods statement seems to identify his knowledge later to come. As with Pharaoh, he is a god himself and has power and authority, why submit to anyone else he cannot see? God played off of his actions because of what he knew and God has a right to do so. It is by those of faith who are saved by Gods grace
@timothyhaugan, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
@@AnniEast, Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil). All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil. God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil.. Double predestination is biblical.. God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
Without an understanding of the whole letter to the Romans that is based on men and women who knew God in His omnipotent power and providence, but rejected God's Revelation and were ungrateful for God's goodness, therefore God gave them up to have reprobate minds they , rejecting and because the rejected the rejected the revelation of Creators greatness and glory, because they then made gods of creatures God gave them up to wallow in their on wickedness, and be worthy of God's wrath because of their wicked works. Paul therefore has already revealed in Romans chapter 1 that all men have rejected God before they rejected God and their wicked works deserved God Wrath, Without as serious study of Isaiah chapter 1 to chapter 6, a understanding of Romans chapter 9, is impossible
God created evil for his purposes. He is not evil, nor can he do evil, but he does control evil. When evil has served its purpose, God will destroy it. Before creation, God predetermined everything, from the tiny to the majestic. On our earthly plane, we may believe we have the freedom to make our own choices, but in reality, they always align with God's predetermined plan. Nothing can exist outside of God's plan, and our choices are inevitably part of it. Even though they do not deserve it based on their merit, God chooses whom he will save. The people whom God chose to save could not resist their salvation, and Jesus died only for them. Those whom God has chosen cannot resist his decision, and once selected, the chosen cannot become unchosen. Glory be to God!
Apparently from your conclusions God is not able to change his mind, Bible clearly shows that he does change his mind, he sits in heaven and does as he pleases, but if everything's predetermined he can't change his mind, and he's already done what pleases him. Him but that is not what the Bible indicates from his natural reading and conclusions
@@tonyschmidt1637 Plus, there's no such thing as sin if everyone and everything is running according to a predetermined program. Sin isn't sin if sin is God's Will. Sin is rebellion AGAINST His Will, which is impossible in OPs World. The plot thickens though, because in Thessalonians it says "..this is God Will...abstain fornication." His Will is to abstain fornication, but in OPs world the one fornicating is simultaneously violating AND abiding by it. This is the level of absurdity in Calvinism that quite frankly, I don't think Calvinists understand, because they haven't thought it theough. Take care
@@tonyschmidt1637 If God changes his mind, how does he correct a future that he has already established? Or, as he is all-knowing, did he know in advance that he would change his mind and, therefore, his predetermined plan included him changing his mind?
God hated Jacob because he was a sinner although he hadn't committed any sins. It was his nature. Jacob by nature was the same but God was going to be gracious to him. God let Esau to do his own thing. He never left Jacob to himself. I thank God he never left me to do my own sinful thing which is why over 40years I've been entering the kingdom. Grateful for my election.
The entire Bible stands against your Augustinian theology. Did you even watch the video? The astonishing pride in claiming you have stopped sinning is a result of this dangerous theology. Wake up brother.
In Calvinism, God never leaves anyone by themselves, because He decrees all things. Thus, every sin of Esau was just a decree, and Esau was just the victim of those decrees. Not real Christianity.
@@Richard_Rz HI Richard I did watch the video but I believe the main theme is about the two individuals in their mother's womb. It's showing salvation is of grace and that we've nothing to do with our salvation. God is Holy and God is Love. These two attributes are manifest in these two individuals. Perhaps you misunderstood me because I'm just sinner saved by grace. I'm a son while at the same time in my fleet there dwells no good thing. Like Noah I've found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Ex Arminian Calvinist. By the way I'm not a follower of Calvin or Augustine. I'm a follower of the Lamb who believes in the doctrines of grace CALLED Calvinism.
The girl misrepresented Calvinism. God does not make people do evil then punishes them for it. All people are naturally inclined to evil God just intervenes for some and changes them and leaves others as they are. That would be a hyper-Calvinistic interpretation and I would stand against whoever teaches that with you.
John Piper, James White, and even John Calvin himself all say God decrees for evil to occur. That’s a fancy word for predetermine. I’m a former Calvinist and Calvinism makes God the author of evil. God bless.
No that IS Calvinism…if you don’t believe God makes people do evil (which is included under “ordaining all things that come to pass”). “Hyper-Calvinism can also be called “honest Calvinism.” If you don’t believe that, I’m glad. I’m also here to tell you that you’re not a Calvinist.
@@chrisbastedo7390 I am a Calvinist and God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. That doesn’t mean he makes people do evil. That means God could intervene and keep something from happening but whatever has happened He didn’t stop so He ordained it.
I’m no Calvinist. But I listen to many of their famous pastors very often. I believe the Calvinist that repent and trust in Jesus are saved. But they just have this predestination doctrine wrong. The danger is that one may say, God picked me, but they never actually repent or ask for forgiveness. I look forward to us all being in heaven where we can poke fun at each other for doctrines we had wrong.
@@williamwagoner7857 Sorry William, no offense, but you're not thinking it through. Can there be any 'random' abortions which God has not ordained from before the foundation of the world? Isn't every single abortion a manifestation of God's perfect will on Earth? Could any abortionist perform an abortion against God's will? If everything has already been 'ordained' 'decreed', even God cannot stop what he already set in motion. There is no "intervening" and when scripture says God shows any 'patience', he's only going through the motions with his own decree. Unfortunately, for the Calvinist, if the "Whatsoever" of WCF chap.3 is true, it covers 'whatsoever'... all inclusive, period. If that's what they meant, they should have used a different word like "most stuff". Instead, they're stuck in the corner in which they have painted themselves and have spent centuries fruitlessly trying to figure an escape from it.
I have been learning so much by listening to Dr. Flowers. I wish we could find a church that taught as well.
Me 2
Me too!!!
I'm with you guys.
@gailpurcell1649,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
If double predestination was Paul’s major argument in Romans 9, wouldn’t his conclusion be, “What shall we say then? That God chooses some for heaven and others for hell, and no one can complain because that’s God sovereign choice.” And yet his conclusion is that Gentiles obtained righteousness by faith without pursuing it but Israel did not because they pursued it by works, not faith. Or is Paul concluding that Gentiles were effectually chosen for heaven and Israel was effectually chosen for hell?
Great Observation!
It’s all in the context.
The objection that Paul is answering from the interlocutor questions has nothing to do with double predestination.
Instead, it is of course referring to Gentiles coming to God by faith, and Israel trying to do so by works, but failing because works don’t save.
Of course, this does not mean that Israel was reprobated. We know from Paul’s later discourse that the acceptance of the Gospel by the Gentiles was meant to “make Israel jealous” so that they themselves would believe and be saved (Romans 11:11-14).
Romans 9 is quite beautiful and hopeful for everyone when understood in the proper context.
@@GhostBearCommander Exactly! And the clay analogy is about Israel, as it is consistently in other scriptural contexts, and as Israel is the immediate context of Romans 9-11. And hardened unbelieving Israel is the immediate context of the vessels of wrath, but Paul says in Romans 11 that if they do not continue in their unbelief THEY too can be grafted back in. Vessels of wrath is not automatic reprobation to damnation. Even Paul once said that he, like the rest of humanity, was once an object of wrath prior to believing.
@@soccerman1717Was the New Jerusalem foreordained BEFORE the foundation of the world?
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg Did God foreordain a New Jerusalem? Sure!
@soccerman1717 I said the* New Jerusalem that is in Revelation.
Did he foreordain THE New Jerusalem BEFORE the foundation of the world? Meaning did God know everything there was to possibly know about the New Jerusalem BEFORE the foundation of the world?
Leighton. I am in vocational education and ministry so I’m telling you I understand your passion here. HOWEVER, Richard is also an expert. Give him some more time. I love you and your work and you frame up these awesome discussions but we need some more from Richard in this case. Grace and love from KY.
@jay1871,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved and predestined Esau to be damned...
Masterfully done. Glory to God! May he continue to use you both for his Kingdom! It is by his Spirit and giving discernment that you both are able to teach sound doctrine and even unteach false doctrine! I pray for those who the adversary is trying to deceive!
@gtaylor1009,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved and predestined Esau to be damned...
Hey Leighton, I'm loving this . . . more like a bible study, crucial to understand how Scripture is dependant upon Scripture, to explain & properly follow historical progression throughout.
Richard is wonderful - excellent to not just discredit erroneous doctrine, but to follow it to proper conclusion.
The more people available to help us learn this correctly, the better.
Thank you!!!!
BTW - I have heard Jack Hibbs properly explain Romans . . . but because it is indeed complicated & proper understanding of it is dependant upon knowing the history, it is refreshing to know "others" come to the same conclusion.
Jack really doesn't target any specific "false religion" - he just purposely teaches what the Scripture says & proves it from supporting scripture - if you learn it RIGHT, there is no room for error.
@sydney.g.sloan,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned...
Calvinists claim that Calvinism comes from Paul’s apostolic interpretation of the Old Testament texts but they cannot show through any meaningful exegesis or by using a consistent hermeneutic that Paul is changing the meaning of the Old Testament texts he quotes from. This is why we must study and be good Bereans because if not we will continue to be led astray by bad theology and false doctrines.
This long form content is fantastic, don't get me wrong, but if you want this to get to a wider audience then *in addition to* this longer form content you might consider also releasing a hyper-streamlined version of this reasoning that's only a few minutes long. I'm talking about some serious fat-trimming. Someone might be able to restate the major bullet points of this 1 hour 27 long minute video on 2 or 3 minutes. With some fancy editing the same information would be packaged into a format that many, *many* times more people would find digestible.
Appreciate Richard's teaching. Good stuff!
Thank you, Brothers! Bottom line principle of understanding God's action is to realize He is absolute pure love! Nothing in His economy comes from a non-love state. John 3:16
This is an amazing video!
Great teaching! I love your guest. The big fail of Calvinism is historical context. Also, salvation has always been by faith which is why Abraham is always held up by Paul. Paul's audience of "Jews" would have shredded him to pieces if he was giving a "new" or Pauline understanding of the text. The Jews knew their Scripture and it appears that Paul is moving carefully through the Scriptures to get to his grand point.
One thing I don't like about these philosophy guys, is that they try to intellectualise scripture. They almost always end up humanising God and deifying man. This is dangerous ground.
Also, there is another option which I have never seen as being considered by these "philosophers" and that is that two things can be true at once.
The Calvinists have predestination spot on and it most certainly harmonises with salvation by the fact that we are saved by grace and not by works lest we should boast. Free choice is "works" and therefore boasting in that choice, is glorifying man's intellect. "Oh, I made the right choice". That's humanising God and deifying man.
At the same time we do have free choice to sin or not sin. Or, to drink Coke or Pepsi and I don't think Calvinists would disagree with that free will choice.
So, the harmonising of those scriptures is yes, we do have free will, but it only exists outside of salvation. Two seemingly opposing things can be true at the same time and still harmonise.
The third "group of scriptures" are made up of the "whosoever should believe" (will be saved) scriptures and "to save all mankind" scriptures.
The "whosoever shall believe" scriptures are "all" the predestined elect or chosen ones who are called by Christ and submit to His call (not by responding by free will choice) to His call. God foreknew who the "whosoever will believes" would be.
Submission is not a free will choice. Ask any UFC fighter. They submit because a power greater than them brings them to their knees so to speak.
When Christ called me, a power greater than myself called the Holy Spirit, literally brought me to my knees in submission. That was not a free will human choice that I made. It was God's grace enacted by the Holy Spirit. A power great than I called the Holy Spirit made me submit. It was the best person I have ever submitted to.
The "all of mankinds" group are the non-elect. And the "all of mankind" scripture is God's desire, not a literal absolute.
The elect are saved. The non-elect according to Revelation will be judged on the day of Judgement according to their deeds. God desires that "all" of mankind will be saved, but also foreknew there would be those who reject Him.
God foreknew the risk of "free will" and therefore made provision for that by having chosen ones (the elect) and then made provision for "all of mankind" by judging them on the Day of Judgement according to their deeds, as stated in Revelation.
That harmonises free will, "saving grace" versus free will works based "choice salvation", salvation for "all" is "all" the elect and "all" the non-elect. Two things can be true at once and still harmonise.
Myrons comparison of world in John 3:16 to 1 John 2:15 makes absolutely no sense. In the gospel of John it is obviously meaning mankind, in 1 John it means the material and physical world. The same Greek word can refer to the physical world and the inhabitants of the world, depending on context. Stop the nonsense, Calvinists.
@DavidWilliams,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
What about his teaching law of attraction?
Do you have a link to the Megan phelps interview so I can watch it in full? Thanks
Remember that Herod was an Edomite King through the line of Esau, and Jesus was the King through the line of David (through Jacob). Which Kingly lineage did God nurture to bring salvation? Not the house of the strong man.
Where can I find that PDF file at I love it
Jesus is indeed an elected official. He is the chosen one.
1:33:00 another issue with his reasoning is he's essentially suggesting that by "world" in John 3:16 John is not referring to the people of the world but the physical world itself. If you try to follow the rest of the verse with this logic then the understanding of the verse falls into being nonsense. After all, that would mean that God sent his son to die not for sinners, but rather for the physical world. That would mean Jesus didn't die for the elect, but rather Jesus died for the locations Toronto, Austria, Africa, etc. Clearly the context of John 3:16 has "world" referring to the people of the world.
Not only do you not let your guest speak, but you interrupt your guest and derail hit point. Now I have to find your guest's website, look for the pdf to understand his point. Very frustrating, you do this often! For the record, I think you are great, I've purchased. your books, but this an ongoing issue.
I don’t if you watched my discussion with rogue Calvinist. I’d interested in your review.
The title should more aptly be put, the Provisionist understanding of Romans 9 rather than what Myron got wrong
I understand why it is, but Calvinist are quick to criticize
By the Calvinist usage of "love/hate" in the Jacob vs Esau situation,
Then Isaac is more loving than God in that setting.
"Isaac loved Esau because he ate of his venison, but Rebekah loved Jacob."
According to the Calvinist standard, Isaac loved Esau a reprobate that God did not love.
Is Isaac's love greater than God's love Calvinists?
And what of Paul's love for Israelites, if God reprobated them and does not love them?
Going back to where the verse was quoted, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Esau are long dead.
Edom became a vassal state to David’s Israelites for generations. Edom helped Babylon sack Judah for vengeance and was called out by Obadiah for committing fratricide.
By the time of Malachi, Edom no longer exists as a kingdom while the Jewish exile have long returned to Judah. By Maccabees, Edomites were forced to convert to Judaism and by Jesus’ time, notable Edomites like Herod the Great were already indistinguishable from Jews.
@@AlexanderosD In some cases yes a parents love is greater than God’s love for the person. For example if a Christian has a child that is gay and never repents. The parent would love the child more than God because God is going to send them to hell.
@@williamwagoner7857
That is a syllogism
To the contrary, God still loves him/her as much as He did before.
I don't know why you've chosen a gay person's soul to cast into hell..as if that sin is different to any other rebellion against God's Will.
Setting aside the fact thar one can live formerly as gay, yet abstain from the lifestyle and receive Christ, though he may still struggle with urges that the Lord did not remove...yet..
But it is BECAUSE of Gods love for him that He will respect this adult child's decision to reject Christ's offer of eternal life.
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi It was just an example. We could use a drunkard as well. One can be formerly gay and be saved I specifically said that didn’t repent of it.
@@williamwagoner7857where is it written that anyone is send to hell bc God doesnt love them? People are not going to heaven bc they are unbelievers, not bc they are hated by God. It is so sad that you portray God in this way. If you believe this then you probably believe God rejoices when a sinner dies and is sent to hell?
God hates His enemies, but instructs His followers to love theirs...sounds completely reasonable😳
Yes! A (relatively) long theology geek-out video by Soteriology 101! Whoohoo! 👏
Is there a way to get this pdf that Richard read from?
The pharasees and saducees believed that prophetic scripture had already failed because it said that the scepter would not pass from Judah until messiah came. They had lost power to rule over themselves to the Romans during the time Jesus was growing up. It was said that they had a day of mourning in sackcloth and ashes because the prophecies had failed
That lady at the begining how sad.
This is why sola scriptura is so important. And being willing to look at origional languages.
The english is certainly not inerrent. In each passage. I know ill piss some off with that but its true. There are mistranslation
And scribal error.
Origional sin doctrine was built on that latin mistranslation. It is simply a fact.
Only the origional manuscripts are 100 percent without human error.
The message of salvation the general story those still are inerrent.
Abd this is why you exegete not eisegete
It's important that Romans 9:3 alludes to a story about idolaters being put to the death. These idolaters had a blood connection to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob just like the Jews Paul is arguing with. Before Paul goes into refuting Unconditional Election by lineage in Romans 9:6-13, he has front-loaded his argument with a story of condemnation of lineage-connected Hebrews who supplanted Jesus with an idol (Colossians 1:15). Also, in Romans 9:9, Paul is saying his kinsmen of the flesh are doubting God's promise like Sarah did (Genesis 18:10-15). Verses 3 and 9 should be given focus when talking with Calvinists.
That is so interesting!
Thank you!
As I often say, when Paul writes an epistle it's not like he thinks to himself, "I think I'll write to (insert Church) and give them some Apostolic advice. You know, something to:
(as is often said by Christians today) 'help them through their day.'"
No
Mostly what he writes is addressing real life issues: responding to things messengers have brought to his attention.
We simply MUST understand these contexts if we are going to understand to what exactly he is driving at.
So thank you again!
You've helped me greatly!👍
Maybe some video editing, I'm unable to finish watching........😢
remember - don't do what the bible says about being deceived by your own heart - don't read romans 9 - be afraid of what it says - unless you can get someone to help you MAKE it mean what you want it to mean - that way you can prove that you can do good by your own free will -
- the verse that everything good comes from God - is also one of those verses that you need them to help you understand that it doesn't really mean that - they will tell you that you can do a good work and believe God - even though the bible says that believing on Jesus and faith in God IS A WORK OF GOD - and not a work of man
if you do what these guys say and trust your own heart - you can make up your own mind what you want to do and what romans 9 means
don't be afraid of romans 9 - just don't read it and think that you can figure it out on your own - because if you don't have these guys to help you make sense - you might think that God decides who to have mercy upon - for His reasons and His reasons only
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take jonah for example - he told God he is not going to go to nineveh - he has a free will and he knew that he can do whatever he wants to do and God will never try to make him do what is right
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these guys tell you - don't worry about the bible being all about the gospel everywhere all the time - the story of jonah is just a fun story - it doesn't have anything to do with being saved - DOES IT ?
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when you realize that the whole bible IS about the gospel and ALL the stories are about who God is and what God does - and the story of salvation and Jesus - then you will see that romans 9 is nothing to be afraid of because when you know what it says - that God makes ALL the choices for EVERYTHING good that ever happens then you can see the gospel in all the stories in the bible
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the story of jonah - it is not just a fun story about a man from a long time ago - it is a story about every person who ever lived -
- until God convicts us of our sins - by giving us faith and His Holy Spirit - we do not want to do what He tells us to do - we want to do things our way - we want to believe in a god that will let us do what we want to do
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if you read romans 9 and if you get the wrong idea because you listened to all the fixing that these guys tell you do - so that you won't believe what it says - you will believe what you want it to say - then you cannot understand the story of jonah because you will not be able to understand it is about salvation
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you won't be able to understand many stories that are about salvation - because you will continue to believe that the gospel is human centered and not God centered
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as long as you think that salvation is up to you - you will be missing what the bible is telling you -
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it is telling you that there are none who seek after God - no not one - we all have gone astray - ON PURPOSE by our own free will - just like jonah -
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the reason is - that our spirit is dead in trespasses and sins - we have no way to understand ANYTHING spiritual until God gives us His Spirit . that is what romans 9 tells you PLAINLY in simple language -
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you have to listen to a bunch of FIXERS to make you think it means something other than what it says
Calvinists misunderstand what God, "ordained."
If God did not want humans to make certain choices, He would have created humans unable to make certain choices. But that IS NOT what God created. He created Adam and Eve with will and desire. Adam and Eve freely chose (will) to disobey His command, which they did because they DESIRED to be more powerful than God.
God did NOT ordain their choice, He ordained their ability to choose the desire they would pursue.
Really?
I thought the offer was that they would "..be >like< God.."
Are you an ex-Calvinist? That's a Calvinistic presup.
@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi
Your important point is?
Calvinism is not supported by scripture.....and this was just one belief (total depravity) that's in error.
Human nature never changed.
you might be AFRAID to read romans 9 because without these guys help to make it mean what you / they want it to mean - you might get the idea that it means what it says
Psams 5:5 You hate all wrong do wrong
If you are afraid of Romans 9 that is a good thing
Well thats true for most of the bible provided that your knowledge is in the right place. You can definitely have a wrong fear of romans 9 if you are coming at it from a calvinist perspective. I used to not like reading it because I didn't understand it. I thought it didn't add up with the rest of scripture. Until I started watching Arminian-calvinist debates. Now it fits right in.
@@JG-id5vi,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
The sovereignity of God
Overrules the whims of man
Are we wiser than God
Should he have saved any!
God was in the heavens long
Before man was created
6000 years ago!
Does God's Sovereignty override His own Soveriegnty?
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
Matthew25v41 indicates not all will be saved!
The word all has limitations
Best translated as all races
Elect from every nation!
@@angloaust1575of their own choosing, God isn’t condemning anyone to hell, a person condemns themselves, by saying that not all will be saved is true but it is the person that chooses to condemn themselves, God gives people a chance. He’s not sending them to hell on the basis of something he makes them do and then condemns them to hell for it. There is no logic in that and you can’t use” Well he’s God, he can do what he wants. “ You better have a better explanation than that.
There are two seeds
Woman and serpent
Jesus redeems the womans seed!
why do you claim that it is a sin for God to hate ? why are you claiming that we are saying God can do that sin - when we told you it is not a sin for God to hate - you said it is a sin for God to hate and that is why you don't believe the bible when it plainly says that God hated .
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the answer that paul gave you about your notions is - keep your mouth shut and don't you dare question what God does or try to claim it is evil - it is good for God to hate whomever He chooses to hate -
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you start talking about innocent - there is none innocent - maybe you missed that part in the bible - or you made it work out the way you want it to work out because you think God needs you to protect Him from doing anything that YOU CLAIM is evil for Him to do .
I think that God is playing off of what’s foreseen by him. Easu was living a life of sin and though Jacob isn’t perfect, the life is different. God knew that no one would inherit the birth right due to the decision of his older bother. Gods statement seems to identify his knowledge later to come. As with Pharaoh, he is a god himself and has power and authority, why submit to anyone else he cannot see? God played off of his actions because of what he knew and God has a right to do so. It is by those of faith who are saved by Gods grace
Please Leighton. Let your guest speak. I am into minute 50 and he still hasn't got to Romans 9
He’s so passionate about the subject he can’t help himself. 😇
@timothyhaugan,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
I love God because HE first loved me! YES, Those who hate God first because God first hated those them. YES - Biblical.
Are you saying they will be rightly punished eternally for not loving a god that hated them? Sounds completely reasonable😳
@@AnniEast Romans Chapter 9
@@TotalPerfection-g1o your interpretation of Romans 9 is whack
@@AnniEast,
Why God hate the unborn baby Esau? Nobody can answer that unless God revealed to you that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world. The elect(children of God) and the reprobates(children of the devil).
All the elect are predestined to be saved even before they are born because they are children of God, and all the reprobates are predestined to be burned in fire because they are children of the devil.
God hate Esau even before he was born because God knows that Esau is a reprobate and a child of the devil..
Double predestination is biblical..
God predestined Jacob to be saved, and predestined Esau to be damned..
Blah blah blah
Without an understanding of the whole letter to the Romans that is based on men and women who knew God in His omnipotent power and providence, but rejected God's Revelation and were ungrateful for God's goodness, therefore God gave them up to have reprobate minds they , rejecting and because the rejected the rejected the revelation of Creators greatness and glory, because they then made gods of creatures God gave them up to wallow in their on wickedness, and be worthy of God's wrath because of their wicked works.
Paul therefore has already revealed in Romans chapter 1 that all men have rejected God before they rejected God and their wicked works deserved God Wrath,
Without as serious study of Isaiah chapter 1 to chapter 6, a understanding of Romans chapter 9, is impossible
God created evil for his purposes. He is not evil, nor can he do evil, but he does control evil.
When evil has served its purpose, God will destroy it.
Before creation, God predetermined everything, from the tiny to the majestic.
On our earthly plane, we may believe we have the freedom to make our own choices, but in reality, they always align with God's predetermined plan.
Nothing can exist outside of God's plan, and our choices are inevitably part of it.
Even though they do not deserve it based on their merit, God chooses whom he will save.
The people whom God chose to save could not resist their salvation, and Jesus died only for them.
Those whom God has chosen cannot resist his decision, and once selected, the chosen cannot become unchosen.
Glory be to God!
“God created evil.” This is a heresy and blasphemy. You’ve already lost the argument.
Apparently from your conclusions God is not able to change his mind, Bible clearly shows that he does change his mind, he sits in heaven and does as he pleases, but if everything's predetermined he can't change his mind, and he's already done what pleases him. Him but that is not what the Bible indicates from his natural reading and conclusions
@@tonyschmidt1637
Plus, there's no such thing as sin if everyone and everything is running according to a predetermined program.
Sin isn't sin if sin is God's Will.
Sin is rebellion AGAINST His Will, which is impossible in OPs World.
The plot thickens though, because in Thessalonians it says "..this is God Will...abstain fornication."
His Will is to abstain fornication, but in OPs world the one fornicating is simultaneously violating AND abiding by it.
This is the level of absurdity in Calvinism that quite frankly, I don't think Calvinists understand, because they haven't thought it theough.
Take care
@@tonyschmidt1637
If God changes his mind, how does he correct a future that he has already established?
Or, as he is all-knowing, did he know in advance that he would change his mind and, therefore, his predetermined plan included him changing his mind?
@@calebcrawford2520
If not God, then who created evil?
An entity that is greater than God?
God hated Jacob because he was a sinner although he hadn't committed any sins. It was his nature. Jacob by nature was the same but God was going to be gracious to him. God let Esau to do his own thing. He never left Jacob to himself. I thank God he never left me to do my own sinful thing which is why over 40years I've been entering the kingdom. Grateful for my election.
The entire Bible stands against your Augustinian theology. Did you even watch the video?
The astonishing pride in claiming you have stopped sinning is a result of this dangerous theology. Wake up brother.
@@Richard_Rz No one says you stop sinning. But there will be progressive sanctification and sinning less and less or you aren’t saved merely deceived.
In Calvinism, God never leaves anyone by themselves, because He decrees all things. Thus, every sin of Esau was just a decree, and Esau was just the victim of those decrees.
Not real Christianity.
@@Richard_Rz HI Richard I did watch the video but I believe the main theme is about the two individuals in their mother's womb. It's showing salvation is of grace and that we've nothing to do with our salvation. God is Holy and God is Love. These two attributes are manifest in these two individuals. Perhaps you misunderstood me because I'm just sinner saved by grace. I'm a son while at the same time in my fleet there dwells no good thing. Like Noah I've found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Ex Arminian Calvinist. By the way I'm not a follower of Calvin or Augustine. I'm a follower of the Lamb who believes in the doctrines of grace CALLED Calvinism.
@@GhostBearCommander So you believe things happen that God doesn’t decree?
The girl misrepresented Calvinism. God does not make people do evil then punishes them for it. All people are naturally inclined to evil God just intervenes for some and changes them and leaves others as they are. That would be a hyper-Calvinistic interpretation and I would stand against whoever teaches that with you.
John Piper, James White, and even John Calvin himself all say God decrees for evil to occur. That’s a fancy word for predetermine. I’m a former Calvinist and Calvinism makes God the author of evil. God bless.
No that IS Calvinism…if you don’t believe God makes people do evil (which is included under “ordaining all things that come to pass”).
“Hyper-Calvinism can also be called “honest Calvinism.”
If you don’t believe that, I’m glad. I’m also here to tell you that you’re not a Calvinist.
@@chrisbastedo7390 I am a Calvinist and God has ordained whatsoever comes to pass. That doesn’t mean he makes people do evil. That means God could intervene and keep something from happening but whatever has happened He didn’t stop so He ordained it.
I’m no Calvinist. But I listen to many of their famous pastors very often. I believe the Calvinist that repent and trust in Jesus are saved. But they just have this predestination doctrine wrong. The danger is that one may say, God picked me, but they never actually repent or ask for forgiveness. I look forward to us all being in heaven where we can poke fun at each other for doctrines we had wrong.
@@williamwagoner7857 Sorry William, no offense, but you're not thinking it through. Can there be any 'random' abortions which God has not ordained from before the foundation of the world? Isn't every single abortion a manifestation of God's perfect will on Earth? Could any abortionist perform an abortion against God's will?
If everything has already been 'ordained' 'decreed', even God cannot stop what he already set in motion. There is no "intervening" and when scripture says God shows any 'patience', he's only going through the motions with his own decree.
Unfortunately, for the Calvinist, if the "Whatsoever" of WCF chap.3 is true, it covers 'whatsoever'... all inclusive, period. If that's what they meant, they should have used a different word like "most stuff". Instead, they're stuck in the corner in which they have painted themselves and have spent centuries fruitlessly trying to figure an escape from it.