I have been attempting to FLO shafts for a set of irons. I built my own design laser device and it works fine. I am a firm believer that this procedure is something NOT needed for shafting. All I got was a bunch of lines on the wall that added to confusion. Great video. I am installing logo at the 12 o’clock position and be done.
First off, thank you for saying spining is useless. I work for a club fitter who does the club builds and people get really mad that we only do SST Pureing and not spining. It's a pain to explain that today's shafts are not measurable by spining and that it never really worked in the first place. So I will caveat your statement on if pureing is worth it or not. Since the device was created and made available to touring pro in full. There have been less than 10 winners on the PGA Tour by players who don't have pured shafts. There are also studies done with it that show that a pured shaft vs one that isn't created more clubhead speed, about 6-7 yards of carry distance, and roughly 2-3 yards closer dispersion. It has also shown to lengthen the life of the shaft for players with higher club head speeds. I believe the most comprehensive test on SST Pureing that I can recall was done by Plugged In Golf a few years ago and it's still worth checking out.
As a scientist who has taken a lot of physics in my life, I appreciated this video! Pretty good method and execution of your experiment! Good analysis and conclusions as well! I would say I found one flaw in your method though: you only tested half an oscillation, basically just how the shaft flexes in the backswing. In a full swing, a golf shaft goes through a full wavelength of motion, i.e., valley to peak to valley if we compare it to a sine wave. To test what a golf shaft does in a full swing, I believe you need to let the shaft flex back down to the bottom of our protractor projection: release from bottom - up to the top - then back down to the bottom. That would more accurately test what a shaft does from backswing flex to downswing flex. Thinking a bit more, when you pull down the shaft to start it’s motion, that is a forced/ controlled/guided flex. I don’t think it accurately represents what happens to a shaft in the backswing. You would also need to fix your release mechanism too eliminate that standard deviation you found. I'd love to see your high speed imagery from this kind of experiment.
Thank you for doing this in a scientific manner and hopefully get rid of the myth once and for all. I am really enjoying your video’s and learning a lot. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Amazing video AJ. The best review of this topic I've ever seen. Answers a LOT of questions. Now I can continue building clubs logo down without wondering..
@@Mac13587 High quality shafts will often have the logo aligned so the FLOing position is consistent from shaft to shaft in the same model. In other words, the shafts were checked at the factory before determining the placement of the logo.
@@bobpegram8042 That's true. I was responding to the pureing scam! I have always found that good shafts have logo aligned with spine. In any case after the technical deliberation in the video, it doesn't matter much
I'm going through all your videos ( watching marathon) the grip station build is next then I'm heading to fit your own driver...AWESOME content...hope you keep teaching the science behind the club making process..im tired of paying for it
Thanks for this. Finally, a comprehensive and accurate and sensible description of these parameters. I agree with almost everything you said, but, i do think that excluding the wobble factor which likely does not affect a single swing, there is a softer and firmer side of the shaft and this will affect the CPM in a frequency analyzer. If you think that frequency is at all important, there is a difference.
Great video. I remember about 20 years ago when I first picked up the game a golf fitting location showed me that exact oscillating graph and why I needed my driver pure’d. Well $100 later I didn’t see any benefit but I always thought it was because I wasn’t good enough. Now I still see places asking if people want this done at $30 a pop. I just had my irons restarted and they asked if I wanted it done. Glad I said no as that would have added up quickly.
Yeah. I did a few driver shafts 20 years back and saw no benefit. As I got more into club building, it all started to make sense why. Don't love how it seems to have come back in vogue recently with these high end fitters. Thanks for watching.
Thanks, AJ. I am now of the opinion that I will save the money spent on pureing and put it into maybe a better suited shaft for me or lessons to help me deliver the face squarely and consistently.
thank you AJ your way of looking at the topic is based on good sense of some one who knows what he is talking about I fore sure apreciate that way of thinking in any profession
Thank you for this in-depth detailed video which debunks many myths out there. Club Fitters continually upsell this and charge a fortune with no discernable benefit.
@@EFGMC SST is extremely expensive and very time consuming. A simple check with the laser light is free and does the same thing very quickly. The guy who invented the SST process is staying in business only because he has gotten the SST process to be used in the building industry.
Yep, this concept has been around for a long time (I even built one of the early ball bearing spine finders back in the day). Even though scientific studies have been proposed, I know of none that have been done independently that support the use of FLO. I've always found it kind of funny anyway since the shaft during a downswing rotates relative to the direction of travel quite a bit and is only in the "FLO" direction just at impact(if it's square to the path that is). Plus, nowadays the adjustable hosels basically rotate the shaft in the head when adjusted totally negating any stable plane if it were actually a thing. I enjoyed your laser demonstration. Keep up the good work!
A spine finder demostrates what actually happens during a swing : one bends the shaft in an unaligned axis and the shaft rotates and clicks into position at the NBP. So when you install the shaft in such a way that it clicks into position at impact when the clubhead is square it must help consistency. PS: Some players prefer to feel some resistance when releasing the club (rotating the shaft) and prefer the shaft to click in position at the top of the swing. Having this axis alligned the same way in all the clubs helps to develop a consistant swing whatever that allignement might be (NBP/Spine).
@@lvd9505 If that is the case why super pros don't do it? you can check Taylormade truck making golf clubs for the pros (driver for Scottie Scheffler por example), they pick the shaft, trim tip/butt, expoy with the logo down, and that's it. More than that, I believe no human will swing in a perfect plane. If you need to work a shot (face open or face closed, blocking one side, fast closure rate, etc etc), it wouldn't be a problem either! I tried pured clubs and none pured clubs (exactly the same shaft/head/grip), and no difference at all. Even pros and very low handicappers couldn't tell any difference. Feels the same, performs the same. Since then, I do not waste time in aligning a shaft. However, it may make some guys happy to know they have their clubs pured!
Great explanation of the techniques used to find the best position to install a golf shaft. Your single oscillation device is pretty dang cool. In the beginning of the video when you were pushing down on the shafts with the laser pointing to a plain white background I thought that the addition of two vertical dark lines would enhance the ability to see shaft movement. Even with the circular protractor in place I still think that would aid with the visualization you are trying to achieve. So far I've installed shafts in exactly three clubs to date. I've 7 pure'd shafts I'll be installing soon. What I've learned about installing shafts is from your videos so I'm grateful you've taken the time to do these and help out others who are new to club building. The amount of knowledge I have this topic is just barely above someone who has never installed a shaft. IMHO, finding a shaft orientation where the movement of the shaft is restricted as close as possible to a plane of movement is of benefit. Is it to me at my skill level? Nope. For a pro that hits club X exactly 100 yds or club Y 150 yds every time there is most likely a tangible benefit. Heck I learned about putting glass beads in epoxy to aid with centering my shafts in the hosel on your channel. Could there really be all that much difference in impact, flight and accuracy if I didn't use those glass beads? Probably not for the average golfer but it's these kinds of subjects that are fun to learn about and discuss! Thanks for the great videos!
Appreciate it. This video below is the continuation of this series, seeing if actual golfers could tell a difference. ua-cam.com/video/EoTf0d-Aiz4/v-deo.html
In the fishing world, we call it splining. A fishing rod is made the same way a driver shaft is made. Splining is really important for fishing rods because of where the rod loads or bends. They are much more flexible than a driver shaft. It is really important for a fishing rod but I can see how in golf, it’s a wash.
You know, I have a Cobra 7 wood in my bag; I was excited to start using it because I just couldn't hit my long irons consistently anymore. It came with a regular flex, too much flex, so I changed to a stiff; I gave up on it because it was fading more than I would have liked. My friend borrowed it while visiting me. He snapped it, I decided to have a friend of mine fix it. He does it on the side for extra money. When I watched him fix it, he put the Hzrdus smoke shaft that I bought on it. He flowed it the exact way you did; he then explained why he does it. I found the results to be incredible. He has since changed my 3 wood, & driver. I think it made a huge difference.
It works for you, so great. Assuming your friend didn't charge you for the FLO so I have no problem with it. Do you like the club now because of the FLO, or because of the shaft, or because of seeing the FLOing he did, that is hard to say.
@@EFGMC First off, I love the test you did, and I was only joking about the Santa Claus comment because people probably feel like they wasted money having this done. Let's just say that players who spend 3 and 4 hundred dollars on a shaft are probably wasting money. I have done that; I have a Tensi CK Orange and a Graphite Design Tour AD VR just sitting in my shop. I play the Hzrdus Smoke that came with my Epic Speed; this was not my original intention. The whip that I get with that shaft feels great. I'm a CAD engineer by trade, and I'm the kind of person that tries everything, and I'm always tinkering with clubs and testing them. I purchased everything for building clubs from Golfworks, shaft extractor, swing weight scale, digital loft & lie bending gauge, the whole ball of horrors, lol. So I like being able to FLO trace my shafts. With Irons, I can't see much difference, but graphite, I can. I have a simulator at my shop, so I'm able to test everything. And I can walk to my local course. One test I did was with my 9 & 8 irons. My average carry distance with my 9 iron was 132; after I FLO my shaft, I averaged 138 carry. I have a very relaxed grip when holding my grip, that's why I like having all my clubs FLO'ed.
@@gtplumbing2004 I don't doubt it, but I would ask if you've ever blind tested them to remove any possible placebo effect. Though in some ways I guess that shouldn't even matter because hitting the clubs better simply because you think they are better is just as legitimate as any other reason you might hit certain clubs well. This gives me an idea for an upcoming video!!
@@EFGMC I started playing golf more seriously about five years ago; before that, I was your average 8 to 12 times a year player. I noticed the equipment was getting more advanced, and I took more of an interest. I didn't even know that FLOing was a thing. I knew that they did it for hunting bows. I have always hit my fairway woods and my hybrids well; it bothered me that I could not seem to hit the 7 wood straight. After my friend FLO'ed my shaft and I started hitting it straight, I was sure that this was the reason. That's when I started working on my own clubs. I've been testing clubs for a while now. I haven't read or watched a video that said it didn't make a difference till the other day; I was looking for other ideas for FLOing. That's how I found you're video. I was shocked to see that others say it doesn't make a difference or are not sure. In my head, I felt like it does, And in my head, that's what matters.
I was told that when a graphite shaft is made it is, heated and folded around a mold, it meets and is sealed. That sealed joint is the spine. I have seen the shaft aligned several different ways. But, one way I see is the easiest is to have a vice, put the shaft in it, put the club head on (without epoxy) and to pull the head to the right, let go and see if the head goes back and forth in a straight line. Keep adjusting until you get it there and that's where you epoxy the head. It amazes me that club manufacturers like Ping, Taylormade and others sell their clubs without aligning their shafts. I believe in spine aligning the shaft as I have experienced an unaligned shafted driver and the same shaft realigned. The difference was amazing.
To expand on your experiment, you should repeat the experiment multiple times with each shift orientation. If you find that any orientation is repeatable, it means that the spine truly is irrelevant. Because we as golfers will adjust to whatever slight deflection there is, as long as it is consistently happening. I think it would be very interesting to see if the non-aligned shafts return to the exact same spot on that initial deflection
have a set of project x lz blackout shafts and may buy those Tahomo 201 heads.. this video help me out in the sense of having to put together equipment to spine and flo … that was holding me back
yours is a correct analysis if the shaft was not also subjected to torsion during the swing, personally I believe that the hard part (spine) should be oriented around the 11 o'clock position so as to counteract the vertical flexion as much as possible during the downswing but at the same time time to bring the end pin of the shaft (tip) back to 12 o'clock at the moment of impact having a shaft loaded in 2 directions... obviously the greater the stresses and the more I move the pin slightly anti-clockwise (towards 10 o'clock) ... I "align" my shaft like this... I'm curious to know your opinion and congratulations for the videos of high technical value
I trust spining more than Flo or purring because they use spining in both. Spining a shaft gives you a hard and soft point in the shaft, hard for control and soft for a better kick point for distance.
Good video, however the shaft DOES flex back at forth throughout the swing: It flexes on the backswing, it flexes on the initial downswing, and it flexes in the opposite direction again before impact...(an all within a couple seconds FYI). Also, the golf shaft has an asymmetrical club head attached at the end of the shaft when you are actually playing golf, so your testing doesn't take into account the torque (which is very important). Ultimately, almost all clubmakers/fitters are missing the biggest issue: consistency throughout your golf bag. If you just randomly epoxy 13 clubheads to your shafts "without any plan"...all of the clubs will behave differently when they are loaded. If you build your clubs with your shafts all oriented in the SAME way, they will at least behave consistently throughout the set. Random shaft behavior due to poor club fitting (ignoring shaft alignment) is one of the most common causes of "golfer insanity". Even really good golfers who have poorly built clubs will wonder why they kept pulling their 7 iron and lost the club championship. It's due to inconsistent club building.
Thanks for watching. The shaft does however only flex one time during the swing, that being one load and one release. Any movement of the shaft during the backswing is inconsequential at best. The head lead at impact is due to the shaft release from the initial load or depending on the golfer, the "secondary" load as the club returns to impact. You also have centrifugal force pulling the cg of the club head inline with the hands.
@@EFGMC Yep. I’m just an advocate of consistent shaft behavior throughout the entire set. Might as well FLO and SPINE and PURE to reduce inconsistency. You have to put the clubs together somehow...so might as well eliminate random inconsistencies. This will eliminate 50% of golf psychologists. Ha!
Excellent expanation and demonstration of your club test jig. Perfect analysis so laymen can understand. I love it, thank you. Old school club builder's heads are exploding. I love that too. Get ready for some pushback. I am very glad I discovered your channel. Greetings from Canada.
Great Video! Got in to a Slight Disagreement recently with a Club Fitter about pureing a Driver Shaft. As the fitter gave the "sales pitch" I asked "What about when I turn the loft up or down from the perfect direction?" That's when the knee boots went to chest waders and I left without a Pured shaft. But did buy it there after the rest of the Fitting session.
The mention about automotive tires is interesting. I worked at a BMW dealership and we used a tire balancer that allowed a ‘Road Force Match’ to be made where based the correlation of wheel rim runout and how much outward force the tire would make while rolling against a roller a spot on the tire and a spot on the wheel where noted to mark. After dismounting the tire and remounting to align these marks the outward force of the tire would consistently be less. This resulted in a smoother ride during the test drive. Sometimes it would be night and day difference of NVH but most of the time just marginal.
@@EFGMC Essentially yes it is aligning a tire to a wheel, sometimes this step can make a huge difference. Good tire shops and car dealers have this equipment.
My co-worker got to spend a few hours on the TM Tour Van and asked the question. The technician looked around and said do you see a PUREing machine. The answer was no. This is a guy that builds clubs for PGA Tour players
ive learned sooo much from watching you channel. I would guess that all this stuff you talked about was probably more prevelant years ago than it is today with modern technology...
I would love to hear your take on club FITTING. ☝🏻 I’ve been fitted twice (once for a driver and once for irons). Neither worked for me. After playing an entire season with each, I donated them to my son. I have come to the conclusion that I can change my swing to fit the club; rather than fitting the club to my swing. Perhaps, like most of us, my swing is not consistent enough; or was not my normal swing on the day I got fitted; or I had a poor fitter who did not give me his best; or any of a number of other reasons. Your thoughts?
I have plans to cover this in a video however my short answer is, I have numerous issues with the modern take on club fitting. I have thought for a while now that club fitting is a result of golf retail moving online and especially the used club market moving online. It's not surprising that you're "fitted" clubs didn't work out. Fittings really only tell you how you are hitting certain equipment at a certain moment in time based strongly on what you had been using previously. I would argue that the same golfer coming into a fitting with different equipment, would end up with different fitted clubs.
Great video. I am impressed by the apparatus you created to demonstrate the flex of the shaft in a single oscillation. I also like (and will use!) your description of moving the variance vs removing it related to the processes you reviewed. I did a related video recently comparing Pure and FLO. My conclusion was that Puring is not worth it. Your argument here will make me think twice about continuing to use FLO. - Dave
Another great informative video on this topic. I will definitely approach the idea of Spin and FLO differently. When I check the FLO I use the weighted laser for checking raw shafts but usually I use a laser pen light attached to the shaft matching the head then rotating the head with the shaft to find the best results. Using this method definitely takes longer:-) Sometimes when using the weighted laser I find it can effects the results. How do you feel about shaft droop? Strongest plane be aligned on top or bottom and or towards the target? Always more to discuss thanks AJ!
I have a golf shaft spiner I've had it for years and it definitely makes a difference when you put it in a freak machine the oscillation is night and day
Agree…shaft moves back……unloads….stops….reloads ….down….once…all the Floing to the end are worthless. Graphites have improved over the past 25 years….when my TM driver heads bounced on my work bench…..wobbling so much. Today, the final products are much improved in consistency…more so as $ goes up. Most steels have logos laser etched. Except KBS steels…and others. I always check butt raw cpm…and with it FLO. My go to…align shaft logos in a consistent position. For irons….you want straighter ball flight….make sure your lie *s match your club length. Mizuno lie * design is same for all iron heads…so is Titleist. Their standard is different. TM and Callaway have different lengths, different lie* for different heads shafts. What a manufacturing nightmare. So…I agree…first back and down cycle is all that matters.
Great video, thank you so much for this insight. I'm planning to go for a driver fitting later this season, and have been trying to determine what really matters vs. the marketing noise (which there is a lot of). I was recently going down the rabbit hole around whether it's worth the extra $$$ to go to a place like Club Champion that focuses on exotic shafts, as well as PUREing, Spinging, etc. to optimize performance. This video (and your others) have helped me immensely to focus on what's really important. Thank you! PS: My favorite part of this video was the shot of your Yoda mug.
I appreciate it. The high end fitters are all about PUREing and unfortunately it makes me question all fitters because of it. I know there are good ones out there, but if you're trying to sell people on this sort of thing it calls the whole fitting into question.
That’s the challenge for so many of us…discerning what’s marketing vs. what’s really important to our game. Club sales are a booming business right now, and there’s a lot of $$$ to be made in “proper” club fittings (with all the bells and whistles they claim to bring). It has the vibe of the old “don’t mine the mine, mine the miners” approach. Anyway, all this to say thank you for the data-based insight and review. Enjoying your content.
@@EFGMC It is so quick to do that I don't charge an extra fee. I know it can't hurt. If it helps at all it is worth the minor amount of time involved. A separate issue is torque. That can make a lot of difference especially for somebody who squares up the face at the last split second. A shaft with a lot of torque won't come around to square instantly.
I've spined my shafts for a while now, whether it makes a difference or not I prefer that it is done anyway... Even if it doesn't do anything, it makes me feel better....😊
@@EFGMC Yeah I do it myself, I've made my own clubs up for quite a few years now as I can't afford to pay retail for custom fit clubs, so I went for a fitting which cost me £30 to find what specs I needed and then assembled clubs myself... 🤓 It's been fun and I love it, it gives a real sense of pride playing with clubs I've made myself... 👌🏻
Very good video just started watching have learned alot you take the the BS out and help us amateurs that love the game and love doing thing there self. Thank you
Tube structure vibration engineering¡! Well presented. A bad shaft can't be refined. Period. Frequency matching old shaft to new shaft replacement is desirable. Actually with complex nature of head and shaft characteristics, getting a right match is like hitting the lottery.
Thanks for the technical review. I totally agree if you want to spend the money no harm but not a big issue. Having said that then flex or frequency is the main issue that we should consider? How do confirm the correct flex of your driver graphite shafts at home?
hi, the best quality fly rods try to make the swing straighter and have the least side sway. It is something that is sought so that the line comes out as straight as possible. Isn't that an idea that can be applied to a driver's swing? Try to make it have the least oscillation up or down? Excellent video! Thank you
You'll see multiple additional small oscillations on super slow motion video through impact as the club moves through the turf and off centre hits, it will also flex at the start of the takeaway, watch the long drivers.
Admittedly, I've done this myself (never paid for the service). I no longer do it because I thought about it, and it makes no sense. What do club manufacturers offer in their drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids? That's right - adjustable shafts. Some of these adjustments can be up to +/- 2.5 degrees. That is a substantial shift, since material flex is exponential in nature. If it was crucial for performance, would recognize consistency errors when you increase/decrease loft on those clubs. The fact is you won't. Most of us "weekend warriors" are not going to experience any performance benefits because our swing mechanics are so inconsistent. I could agree that it could be beneficial for irons, but purely from a feel standpoint.
That's a rediculous statement on adjustable drivers. When you change the head, is you grip on your club moved? If it has, your not not using your club right. The head moves, not the shaft.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this hotly debated topic. Can I ask you about another one? How much of a difference, if any, is there between budget shaft (FST) vs expensive shafts (Nippon/KBS)? Would an average golfer even notice a difference?
Assuming you are talking similar weight and flex, most shafts are pretty consistent at this point especially steel. Most golfers would not notice. Thanks for watching!
This topic always seems to come down to if you feel like it helps, do it. If you don’t care don’t do it. I’m not sure if I could notice it or not. I do it because I have a raw shaft and why not. Even though I do it I’m not convinced it does much for me.
I think this video has sold me on doing FLO when building a club. My question is where can I find shaft vice like the one you are using in this video? I've searched most of the club building supply shops with no luck. Thanks in advance for your assistance.
That is part of my frequency meter setup. It's called the Club Scout. Not sure if the guy who does them, still makes them or not. Might try to search for it and see if you can contact them concerning the clamp section.
I appreciate the thought and experiment parameters. But I have a question. Could you potentially construct a larger scale test where the shaft is flexed along a larger path? I am curious what a larger travel path would do to compound the drift off center. I am also curious if eliminating the release variable might have reduced the effectiveness of the test. The reason I say this, is that, to a degree, the slight variability of the angle of the load at the top of the swing, may activate the variability in the unloading of the shaft. For instance, 5 * 0 = 0 AND 100 * 0 = 0 However; when increasing the variability by 1 (-1 to 1), the results are -5 to 5 and -100 to 100 respectively. I am by no means discounting the test results, but I am certainly curious what the test would look like with longer swing path and variable releases aggregated and averaged. Thanks for the video. I hope you are able to take this test further.
Great video! What about shaft droop? The thing that bothers me is: The shaft will bend / droop more on a full swing and so it will change its dynamic lie compared to a half swing. Also the club face is deeper which makes it harder to hit the sweet spot.
That is true. However if you look at golfers swinging, the harder and faster they swing, the more the hands raise at impact as they are pulled away from the body in line with the shaft. It's probably not an exact match against the droop, but it gets pretty close. The face is deeper, but the overall sweet spot is also much larger on that face than with any other club in the bag. Also I would argue that hitting above the equator on a driver is the optimal impact location, as it imparts greater launch angle thanks to the face roll, while at the same time dropping the back spin due to vertical gear effect.
AJ, I had a set of irons built by a master club builder 14 years ago. He’s no longer around, sadly. He FLO’d those irons and then we tested. The FLOing was for toe down effect and we used a golf ball that had been turned on a lathe and had a groove cut in it along with face tape. The ball was oriented in a 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock position to test strike consistency where you could clearly see the line in the ball imprint on the face tape. There was definitely a difference between FLO’d shafts and not, as far as consistency. That set of clubs was built in 2008 and I have purchased 8 sets of irons from top manufacturers since then ordering them with the exact same specifications and none of them are even close. It’s disappointing, I’m still playing with that 14 year old set of Adams Idea Pro Gold irons and can’t find anything to replace them. Not only was the strike pattern consistent as far as center contact but the groove axis was consistent also, no tilting like you would get with inconsistent toe down effect. It was never about “feel” for me, it was always about consistent center of the clubface strikes. I’m a believer!
Was the shaft aligned so the natural bend plane was in the 12 : 6 orientation (ie the soft side)? If it was that goes against how a pured shaft is installed. My point being you may have found that the softer side improved your swing sequencing and delivery as you initiate your downswing. The problem becomes not every golfer will have that same reaction, so unless every golfer can find a builder with the level of knowledge that your's possessed, they may get very different results if they just paid for the "benefits" of pured shafts for example.
@@EFGMC I’m not really sure how he oriented the shaft, there is a felt tip mark under the grip tape oriented in the 12 o’clock position but I don’t really know what that signifies. He didn’t explain to me what he had done, that was his “secret sauce” if you know what I mean. Sadly few people could see the value in what he offered and were willing to spend the money so he ended up selling all of his equipment and the buyer moved everything to another state. There’s nobody else here that has the kind of knowledge and training he had. He was a follower of Tom Wishon and had trained with him.
@@EFGMC I think you may be right, I remember a few years ago having someone check them for frequency to try to match them. They’re DGSL R300 shafts but when measured with a frequency machine they said they were softer than an R300 “should be”.
@@davidcosten4722 So they could be aligned with the soft side up which would show lower frequency although the difference in a DG shaft is usually only going to be 2 CPM at worst. Could also be soft stepped / trimmed to play a touch softer in general and that could also be a big part of the equation.
Have my shafts all individually 'pured' or have all the logos on my shafts face in the same direction? No question about it, give me a uniform looking set of clubs anytime!
Great video! Thank You. I actually did an experiment last summer with an iron shaft that went through puring. I did it in a Cobra AMP Pitching Wedge. In a steel regular flex shaft. I had my control pitching wedge and then in the head of a second Cobra AMP PW head I purchased the same shaft as my control PW and had it pured. Then installed. When I go to the range or to the course and hit both PW irons, I get the same dispersion and the same results. So I agree with you and your more definitive testing. Not worth the cost. Thanks again for this awareness!
Well done. Always like to see people not just buying the marketing and hype that comes with so much in golf. Plan on a video soon doing the same basic experiment you did. Thanks for the support!
Spining and floing make such an imperceivable difference in steel shafts it is not worth the trouble. Graphite shafts are another animal entirely and it varies depending on the shaft and the application.
HI AJ!!!!! Great video. if you don't mind me asking what is the mechanism you used to hold the tip end down to make sure the club realeases at the same distance every time?
oftentimes for aftermarket shafts the vendor already marks them, but the "optimal position" is always somewhat not inline with the logo. so I have been installing shaft based on logo position🤣 since look is always the priority. Now that I know it has no effect whatsoever, I can continue installing shaft like this with confidence.
that's really helpful info, I was guessing that they are measuring the shafts before decals are applied, they just never do a perfect job at it. I once received a kbs tgi that have so much residual bent it cannot roll on a flat surface at all, they pured that bent shaft as the markings are 90 and 180 degrees to the bent, not sure how it passed QC or heat damaged during shipping? I think that is the only time the puring would have mattered if I decide to use the shaft.
Hey AJ, I've been a follower since a few month and just recently built a whole set. It's a work of art, thanks to all the skills and techniques you have shared on your channel. Keep up the great work! THIS video almost busted all my expectations, doubts and myths about spining and floing. BUT would the results of the floing test be any different if there would be a clubhead (with a certain weight distribution to it) attached and not testing the vertical but the horizontal oscillation? If not, I would never think about spining and floing again. Hope you are having a wonderful day, cheers from Hamburg, Germany
Food for thought. Never thought of these processes as a means to make a poor quality shaft into a better quality shaft. Instead, I consider them as a means optimize consistency from one club to the next throughout, for exmple, an iron set. Personally, I find sensibility and rationale to them but in the end, if there truly is no benefit to said processes, then there is absolutely no down side to it anyway. Can't hurt anything and nothing to lose.
Sorry, but I hate this argument. If we can't prove any benefit, then we rely on the "can't hurt" argument. That said, if you are doing the alignment yourself or someone else is doing it for free, then I agree that it doesn't hurt. However if someone is charging you $30 per shaft for this, that is where I have a big problem.
An overly flexible shaft can see more forward deflection at impact so the head is in front of the shaft. This can cause the head to increase loft and close slightly, which can lead to a hook. A shaft that is too stiff does not offer any of this forward deflection so the golfer needs to square the face himself. They often don't which can lead to open face. However in many cases it's simply a matter of feel and how the loading or lack of loading of the shaft can cause the golfer to compensate in some way that results in a directional miss of some sort.
Thanks for doing this video. I have seen some very scientific tests but this helps to explain the real experience. Now I understand why the OEM’s don’t do these setups because it isn’t necessary. Especially Japan because they are so precise at times. I will not pay for these ideas.
Very interesting video. My initial challenge would be that if you google an image of a loaded golf shaft at transition or impact, the forces showing and the bend on the shaft are a lot more than in the very short journey the shaft travelled in your test. Under that level of increased load and stress, a shaft could show a lot more of the inconsistency/wobble/circular motion?
I agree and for the sake of not having a 40 minute video which I know people don't like, I tried to really pair down my argument. My 2nd big issue with shaft alignment is that it functions under the assumption that the shaft only bends in one plane in the swing. This is completely wrong however since the shaft is not only bending during the swing but also rotating 80-90 degrees at the same time. So what are you aligning the shaft to? That becomes the question since it flexes and rotates simultaneously. Really what people should strive for with golf shafts, is having ones with the greatest radial consistency so no matter which way the shaft bends, the "feel" will be constant. At least that's my take.
All great points. But for fixed hosel clubs, if this is something someone believes in so be it. But what about the adjustable clubs where the shaft gets spun around for different lofts and lies. The point of finding the up position at that point makes no difference at all correct?
If you wanted to do it, you’d have to decide on what hosel position to use, and then install the shaft with that setting. Like you said, you couldn’t change it after that without reshafting.
Read recently that a shaft was 98% symmetrical ( think it was a Diamana, but not sure). Don’t know of course, if that level of quality is universal, but I doubt that I could any abnormality in that shaft. But if a shaft was only 50% symmetrical, picking a number out of the air, I might want some alignment work done. On the other hand, when Tom Wishon was at Golfsmith, they sponsored Scott Verplank for a year. They assembled several sets of irons for him, but he wasn’t happy with any of them, until they Pured the shafts. Across a set, does it assure consistency or overcome some manufacturing quality defect? Dunno
High quality graphite will be 99% hard to soft side symmetrical. Anything under 98% these days isn't great and I wouldn't use it unless we are talking about $50 graphite driver shafts. If you want to see all about the consistency of shafts I would check out Russ Ryden's website golfshaftreviews.info Think its like $15 a year to subscribe but he measures most of the popular shafts on the market including EI curve, symmetry, weight, torque, etc. Lots of detail and helpful when trying to determine the differences between shafts.
Great experiment - would be interested to see the results if the load applied matched actual swing speeds i.e. greater load. Also, would shaft torque play a greater role? ... Lastly why do so many tour pros have pured shafts?
I would check out my other PUREd shaft video where I had actual golfers try and figure out the PURE aligned vs not shaft. The number of tour pros who actually are currently using PUREd shafts is smaller than they present. Those lists include everyone who may have ever used a PUREd shaft so the list looks longer. Most importantly, none of them are paying for it and since it has no effect either way, I think they can convince some of them to do it. Here's the other video, ua-cam.com/video/EoTf0d-Aiz4/v-deo.html
Just one question, do you have two swings? One for the outside golf course and the other for inside in front of the screen on the green driving rage mat? I have seen you in a few of your videos on the golf course taking big divots but no big bang sound on the indoor mat.
So does it matter then what orientation a not perfectly straight shaft is installed? I just bought new shafts for my woods and the middle lifts about 1/16th of an inch when I roll it in marble counter top. It’s polishes so I’m assuming it’s pretty flat.
It would only be aligned if you either never adjust it from where it was originally located or if you were using a Callaway club where the shaft does not rotate when adjusted.
I go in this order. Weight, balance (ie more tip heavy or counter balanced), flex, bend profile, torque. Price and color are influential, but I put them in a different category.
I love some honesty from the MCM. This is serious advice. When buying clubs thousands of people are being ripped off.
I have been attempting to FLO shafts for a set of irons. I built my own design laser device and it works fine. I am a firm believer that this procedure is something NOT needed for shafting. All I got was a bunch of lines on the wall that added to confusion.
Great video. I am installing logo at the 12 o’clock position and be done.
First off, thank you for saying spining is useless. I work for a club fitter who does the club builds and people get really mad that we only do SST Pureing and not spining. It's a pain to explain that today's shafts are not measurable by spining and that it never really worked in the first place.
So I will caveat your statement on if pureing is worth it or not. Since the device was created and made available to touring pro in full. There have been less than 10 winners on the PGA Tour by players who don't have pured shafts. There are also studies done with it that show that a pured shaft vs one that isn't created more clubhead speed, about 6-7 yards of carry distance, and roughly 2-3 yards closer dispersion. It has also shown to lengthen the life of the shaft for players with higher club head speeds. I believe the most comprehensive test on SST Pureing that I can recall was done by Plugged In Golf a few years ago and it's still worth checking out.
Sorry, but we are on completely different pages on this topic.
Now that I've watched it all, that is the most informative video I think I have ever seen relating to golf building on UA-cam.
Your teaching is very clear, straight-forward, and precise. Makes it easy for a beginning clubmaker (which I am not) to understand.
As a scientist who has taken a lot of physics in my life, I appreciated this video! Pretty good method and execution of your experiment! Good analysis and conclusions as well! I would say I found one flaw in your method though: you only tested half an oscillation, basically just how the shaft flexes in the backswing. In a full swing, a golf shaft goes through a full wavelength of motion, i.e., valley to peak to valley if we compare it to a sine wave. To test what a golf shaft does in a full swing, I believe you need to let the shaft flex back down to the bottom of our protractor projection: release from bottom - up to the top - then back down to the bottom. That would more accurately test what a shaft does from backswing flex to downswing flex. Thinking a bit more, when you pull down the shaft to start it’s motion, that is a forced/ controlled/guided flex. I don’t think it accurately represents what happens to a shaft in the backswing. You would also need to fix your release mechanism too eliminate that standard deviation you found. I'd love to see your high speed imagery from this kind of experiment.
Thank you for doing this in a scientific manner and hopefully get rid of the myth once and for all. I am really enjoying your video’s and learning a lot. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Will have another video on the subject upcoming. Thanks for the support!
Amazing video AJ. The best review of this topic I've ever seen. Answers a LOT of questions. Now I can continue building clubs logo down without wondering..
Oh yes! There's that! I have always ignored the spine line and went logo down.
@@Mac13587 High quality shafts will often have the logo aligned so the FLOing position is consistent from shaft to shaft in the same model. In other words, the shafts were checked at the factory before determining the placement of the logo.
@@bobpegram8042 That's true. I was responding to the pureing scam! I have always found that good shafts have logo aligned with spine. In any case after the technical deliberation in the video, it doesn't matter much
@@Mac13587 My experience is that maybe 1 out of 5 or 6 shafts (or fewer) will have the shaft label aligned with the flex characteristics of the shaft.
@@bobpegram8042 Very true! Only Top of the Line wood shaft models will have the FLO/spine and label aligned.
This guy knows his stuff. Great video.
Great job in making your case. I've paid for SST Purring in my last three fits but based on this I won't do that again!! Thanks.
Thanks. If it was a free process I'd say whatever, but with people charging from $20 to $60 per club, it's just not right in my opinion.
Buy better quality shafts instead
@@Mac13587 absolutely! Took the words out of my mouth. All the scratch players and me in our click laugh behind the back of people who pure their set.
I'm going through all your videos ( watching marathon) the grip station build is next then I'm heading to fit your own driver...AWESOME content...hope you keep teaching the science behind the club making process..im tired of paying for it
Fantastic. That was my goal, to get more people into club building. Welcome to the club.
Thanks for this. Finally, a comprehensive and accurate and sensible description of these parameters. I agree with almost everything you said, but, i do think that excluding the wobble factor which likely does not affect a single swing, there is a softer and firmer side of the shaft and this will affect the CPM in a frequency analyzer. If you think that frequency is at all important, there is a difference.
Great video. I remember about 20 years ago when I first picked up the game a golf fitting location showed me that exact oscillating graph and why I needed my driver pure’d. Well $100 later I didn’t see any benefit but I always thought it was because I wasn’t good enough. Now I still see places asking if people want this done at $30 a pop. I just had my irons restarted and they asked if I wanted it done. Glad I said no as that would have added up quickly.
Yeah. I did a few driver shafts 20 years back and saw no benefit. As I got more into club building, it all started to make sense why. Don't love how it seems to have come back in vogue recently with these high end fitters. Thanks for watching.
Thanks, AJ. I am now of the opinion that I will save the money spent on pureing and put it into maybe a better suited shaft for me or lessons to help me deliver the face squarely and consistently.
Unfortunately lessons aren't fun or sexy like a new shiny driver, but the results are often better.
thank you AJ
your way of looking at the topic is based on good sense of some one who knows what he is talking about
I fore sure apreciate that way of thinking in any profession
Thank you for this in-depth detailed video which debunks many myths out there. Club Fitters continually upsell this and charge a fortune with no discernable benefit.
Only one it benefits is the fitter, and SST Pure who gets a cut.
@@EFGMC SST is extremely expensive and very time consuming. A simple check with the laser light is free and does the same thing very quickly. The guy who invented the SST process is staying in business only because he has gotten the SST process to be used in the building industry.
Yep, this concept has been around for a long time (I even built one of the early ball bearing spine finders back in the day). Even though scientific studies have been proposed, I know of none that have been done independently that support the use of FLO. I've always found it kind of funny anyway since the shaft during a downswing rotates relative to the direction of travel quite a bit and is only in the "FLO" direction just at impact(if it's square to the path that is). Plus, nowadays the adjustable hosels basically rotate the shaft in the head when adjusted totally negating any stable plane if it were actually a thing. I enjoyed your laser demonstration. Keep up the good work!
You get it. Your description is exactly what I tell people who ask about shaft alignment.
A spine finder demostrates what actually happens during a swing : one bends the shaft in an unaligned axis and the shaft rotates and clicks into position at the NBP. So when you install the shaft in such a way that it clicks into position at impact when the clubhead is square it must help consistency.
PS: Some players prefer to feel some resistance when releasing the club (rotating the shaft) and prefer the shaft to click in position at the top of the swing. Having this axis alligned the same way in all the clubs helps to develop a consistant swing whatever that allignement might be (NBP/Spine).
@@lvd9505 If that is the case why super pros don't do it? you can check Taylormade truck making golf clubs for the pros (driver for Scottie Scheffler por example), they pick the shaft, trim tip/butt, expoy with the logo down, and that's it. More than that, I believe no human will swing in a perfect plane. If you need to work a shot (face open or face closed, blocking one side, fast closure rate, etc etc), it wouldn't be a problem either!
I tried pured clubs and none pured clubs (exactly the same shaft/head/grip), and no difference at all. Even pros and very low handicappers couldn't tell any difference. Feels the same, performs the same. Since then, I do not waste time in aligning a shaft. However, it may make some guys happy to know they have their clubs pured!
Excellent video. I am highly critical of videos but you hit it out of the park with this one my friend. Thank you
Great video and nice work! Debunked the myth of spining / flo/ pure!!!!
Great explanation of the techniques used to find the best position to install a golf shaft. Your single oscillation device is pretty dang cool. In the beginning of the video when you were pushing down on the shafts with the laser pointing to a plain white background I thought that the addition of two vertical dark lines would enhance the ability to see shaft movement. Even with the circular protractor in place I still think that would aid with the visualization you are trying to achieve.
So far I've installed shafts in exactly three clubs to date. I've 7 pure'd shafts I'll be installing soon. What I've learned about installing shafts is from your videos so I'm grateful you've taken the time to do these and help out others who are new to club building. The amount of knowledge I have this topic is just barely above someone who has never installed a shaft.
IMHO, finding a shaft orientation where the movement of the shaft is restricted as close as possible to a plane of movement is of benefit. Is it to me at my skill level? Nope. For a pro that hits club X exactly 100 yds or club Y 150 yds every time there is most likely a tangible benefit.
Heck I learned about putting glass beads in epoxy to aid with centering my shafts in the hosel on your channel. Could there really be all that much difference in impact, flight and accuracy if I didn't use those glass beads? Probably not for the average golfer but it's these kinds of subjects that are fun to learn about and discuss!
Thanks for the great videos!
Thanks for watching. Glad the videos have been useful.
Love your channel
mate, very good content that's helping me do my own work. My mate trusted me to regrip all of his clubs after see mine.
Excellent video you have have cleared all by doubts regarding shaft alignment and myths. Very well covered in a layman's language.
Appreciate it. This video below is the continuation of this series, seeing if actual golfers could tell a difference.
ua-cam.com/video/EoTf0d-Aiz4/v-deo.html
Thank u AJ. Very enlightening. I have wasted too much money on this. The car tyres analogy brilliant!
In the fishing world, we call it splining. A fishing rod is made the same way a driver shaft is made. Splining is really important for fishing rods because of where the rod loads or bends. They are much more flexible than a driver shaft. It is really important for a fishing rod but I can see how in golf, it’s a wash.
You know, I have a Cobra 7 wood in my bag; I was excited to start using it because I just couldn't hit my long irons consistently anymore. It came with a regular flex, too much flex, so I changed to a stiff; I gave up on it because it was fading more than I would have liked. My friend borrowed it while visiting me. He snapped it, I decided to have a friend of mine fix it.
He does it on the side for extra money. When I watched him fix it, he put the Hzrdus smoke shaft that I bought on it.
He flowed it the exact way you did; he then explained why he does it. I found the results to be incredible. He has since changed my 3 wood, & driver. I think it made a huge difference.
It works for you, so great. Assuming your friend didn't charge you for the FLO so I have no problem with it. Do you like the club now because of the FLO, or because of the shaft, or because of seeing the FLOing he did, that is hard to say.
@@EFGMC First off, I love the test you did, and I was only joking about the Santa Claus comment because people probably feel like they wasted money having this done. Let's just say that players who spend 3 and 4 hundred dollars on a shaft are probably wasting money. I have done that; I have a Tensi CK Orange and a Graphite Design Tour AD VR just sitting in my shop. I play the Hzrdus Smoke that came with my Epic Speed; this was not my original intention. The whip that I get with that shaft feels great.
I'm a CAD engineer by trade, and I'm the kind of person that tries everything, and I'm always tinkering with clubs and testing them. I purchased everything for building clubs from Golfworks, shaft extractor, swing weight scale, digital loft & lie bending gauge, the whole ball of horrors, lol. So I like being able to FLO trace my shafts. With Irons, I can't see much difference, but graphite, I can. I have a simulator at my shop, so I'm able to test everything. And I can walk to my local course.
One test I did was with my 9 & 8 irons. My average carry distance with my 9 iron was 132; after I FLO my shaft, I averaged 138 carry.
I have a very relaxed grip when holding my grip, that's why I like having all my clubs FLO'ed.
@@gtplumbing2004 I don't doubt it, but I would ask if you've ever blind tested them to remove any possible placebo effect.
Though in some ways I guess that shouldn't even matter because hitting the clubs better simply because you think they are better is just as legitimate as any other reason you might hit certain clubs well.
This gives me an idea for an upcoming video!!
@@EFGMC You hit the nail on the head.
@@EFGMC I started playing golf more seriously about five years ago; before that, I was your average 8 to 12 times a year player. I noticed the equipment was getting more advanced, and I took more of an interest. I didn't even know that FLOing was a thing. I knew that they did it for hunting bows. I have always hit my fairway woods and my hybrids well; it bothered me that I could not seem to hit the 7 wood straight.
After my friend FLO'ed my shaft and I started hitting it straight, I was sure that this was the reason.
That's when I started working on my own clubs. I've been testing clubs for a while now. I haven't read or watched a video that said it didn't make a difference till the other day; I was looking for other ideas for FLOing. That's how I found you're video. I was shocked to see that others say it doesn't make a difference or are not sure. In my head, I felt like it does, And in my head, that's what matters.
I was told that when a graphite shaft is made it is, heated and folded around a mold, it meets and is sealed. That sealed joint is the spine. I have seen the shaft aligned several different ways. But, one way I see is the easiest is to have a vice, put the shaft in it, put the club head on (without epoxy) and to pull the head to the right, let go and see if the head goes back and forth in a straight line. Keep adjusting until you get it there and that's where you epoxy the head. It amazes me that club manufacturers like Ping, Taylormade and others sell their clubs without aligning their shafts. I believe in spine aligning the shaft as I have experienced an unaligned shafted driver and the same shaft realigned. The difference was amazing.
You are a genius 👍 bringing simplicity to mere mortal golfers
I know some people who would argue that, but I appreciate the complement all the same.
To expand on your experiment, you should repeat the experiment multiple times with each shift orientation. If you find that any orientation is repeatable, it means that the spine truly is irrelevant. Because we as golfers will adjust to whatever slight deflection there is, as long as it is consistently happening. I think it would be very interesting to see if the non-aligned shafts return to the exact same spot on that initial deflection
Wow. Fantastic video. Totally blown away. Great info
have a set of project x lz blackout shafts and may buy those Tahomo 201 heads.. this video help me out in the sense of having to put together equipment to spine and flo … that was holding me back
yours is a correct analysis if the shaft was not also subjected to torsion during the swing, personally I believe that the hard part (spine) should be oriented around the 11 o'clock position so as to counteract the vertical flexion as much as possible during the downswing but at the same time time to bring the end pin of the shaft (tip) back to 12 o'clock at the moment of impact having a shaft loaded in 2 directions... obviously the greater the stresses and the more I move the pin slightly anti-clockwise (towards 10 o'clock) ... I "align" my shaft like this... I'm curious to know your opinion and congratulations for the videos of high technical value
I trust spining more than Flo or purring because they use spining in both. Spining a shaft gives you a hard and soft point in the shaft, hard for control and soft for a better kick point for distance.
Good video, however the shaft DOES flex back at forth throughout the swing: It flexes on the backswing, it flexes on the initial downswing, and it flexes in the opposite direction again before impact...(an all within a couple seconds FYI). Also, the golf shaft has an asymmetrical club head attached at the end of the shaft when you are actually playing golf, so your testing doesn't take into account the torque (which is very important). Ultimately, almost all clubmakers/fitters are missing the biggest issue: consistency throughout your golf bag. If you just randomly epoxy 13 clubheads to your shafts "without any plan"...all of the clubs will behave differently when they are loaded. If you build your clubs with your shafts all oriented in the SAME way, they will at least behave consistently throughout the set.
Random shaft behavior due to poor club fitting (ignoring shaft alignment) is one of the most common causes of "golfer insanity".
Even really good golfers who have poorly built clubs will wonder why they kept pulling their 7 iron and lost the club championship. It's due to inconsistent club building.
Thanks for watching. The shaft does however only flex one time during the swing, that being one load and one release. Any movement of the shaft during the backswing is inconsequential at best. The head lead at impact is due to the shaft release from the initial load or depending on the golfer, the "secondary" load as the club returns to impact. You also have centrifugal force pulling the cg of the club head inline with the hands.
@@EFGMC Yep. I’m just an advocate of consistent shaft behavior throughout the entire set. Might as well FLO and SPINE and PURE to reduce inconsistency. You have to put the clubs together somehow...so might as well eliminate random inconsistencies. This will eliminate 50% of golf psychologists. Ha!
@@OrthodontistDenver True. Placebo effect is very real in golf.
Excellent expanation and demonstration of your club test jig. Perfect analysis so laymen can understand. I love it, thank you. Old school club builder's heads are exploding. I love that too. Get ready for some pushback. I am very glad I discovered your channel. Greetings from Canada.
Great Video! Got in to a Slight Disagreement recently with a Club Fitter about pureing a Driver Shaft. As the fitter gave the "sales pitch" I asked "What about when I turn the loft up or down from the perfect direction?" That's when the knee boots went to chest waders and I left without a Pured shaft. But did buy it there after the rest of the Fitting session.
The sales pitch can sound good until you start asking a couple questions, then it quickly falls apart.
I have a view that spining steel in iron shafts has a knock on effect, by helping the droop be more consistent from club to club.
Makes loads of sense, sst is just a mental blanket.. but also, with adjusting drivers, u can end up changing out of the sst.
This is such a great video. Very helpful and just plain honest and smart!
Appreciate it!
The mention about automotive tires is interesting. I worked at a BMW dealership and we used a tire balancer that allowed a ‘Road Force Match’ to be made where based the correlation of wheel rim runout and how much outward force the tire would make while rolling against a roller a spot on the tire and a spot on the wheel where noted to mark. After dismounting the tire and remounting to align these marks the outward force of the tire would consistently be less. This resulted in a smoother ride during the test drive. Sometimes it would be night and day difference of NVH but most of the time just marginal.
So you were aligning the tire to the wheel?
@@EFGMC Essentially yes it is aligning a tire to a wheel, sometimes this step can make a huge difference. Good tire shops and car dealers have this equipment.
Go to spine aligning a fishing rod for installing the eyes for the fishing line . Eye opener
My co-worker got to spend a few hours on the TM Tour Van and asked the question. The technician looked around and said do you see a PUREing machine. The answer was no. This is a guy that builds clubs for PGA Tour players
ive learned sooo much from watching you channel. I would guess that all this stuff you talked about was probably more prevelant years ago than it is today with modern technology...
Thank you very much for clarifying that myth. Great video!
Thanks for the support!
This is great! 👍🏻
Answers a LOT of questions I’ve had for a long time.
Thanks 🙏🏻 keep up the good work.
Awesome explanations and easy to understand terms. Very well done!👍🏻
Thanks for watching and the support!
I would love to hear your take on club FITTING. ☝🏻
I’ve been fitted twice (once for a driver and once for irons). Neither worked for me. After playing an entire season with each, I donated them to my son.
I have come to the conclusion that I can change my swing to fit the club; rather than fitting the club to my swing.
Perhaps, like most of us, my swing is not consistent enough; or was not my normal swing on the day I got fitted; or I had a poor fitter who did not give me his best; or any of a number of other reasons.
Your thoughts?
I have plans to cover this in a video however my short answer is, I have numerous issues with the modern take on club fitting. I have thought for a while now that club fitting is a result of golf retail moving online and especially the used club market moving online.
It's not surprising that you're "fitted" clubs didn't work out. Fittings really only tell you how you are hitting certain equipment at a certain moment in time based strongly on what you had been using previously. I would argue that the same golfer coming into a fitting with different equipment, would end up with different fitted clubs.
Great video. I am impressed by the apparatus you created to demonstrate the flex of the shaft in a single oscillation. I also like (and will use!) your description of moving the variance vs removing it related to the processes you reviewed.
I did a related video recently comparing Pure and FLO. My conclusion was that Puring is not worth it. Your argument here will make me think twice about continuing to use FLO. - Dave
Well done! Great info & explanations!
Another great informative video on this topic. I will definitely approach the idea of Spin and FLO differently. When I check the FLO I use the weighted laser for checking raw shafts but usually I use a laser pen light attached to the shaft matching the head then rotating the head with the shaft to find the best results. Using this method definitely takes longer:-) Sometimes when using the weighted laser I find it can effects the results. How do you feel about shaft droop? Strongest plane be aligned on top or bottom and or towards the target? Always more to discuss thanks AJ!
I have a golf shaft spiner I've had it for years and it definitely makes a difference when you put it in a freak machine the oscillation is night and day
Agree…shaft moves back……unloads….stops….reloads ….down….once…all the Floing to the end are worthless. Graphites have improved over the past 25 years….when my TM driver heads bounced on my work bench…..wobbling so much. Today, the final products are much improved in consistency…more so as $ goes up. Most steels have logos laser etched. Except KBS steels…and others. I always check butt raw cpm…and with it FLO. My go to…align shaft logos in a consistent position. For irons….you want straighter ball flight….make sure your lie *s match your club length. Mizuno lie * design is same for all iron heads…so is Titleist. Their standard is different. TM and Callaway have different lengths, different lie* for different heads shafts. What a manufacturing nightmare. So…I agree…first back and down cycle is all that matters.
Great video, thank you so much for this insight. I'm planning to go for a driver fitting later this season, and have been trying to determine what really matters vs. the marketing noise (which there is a lot of). I was recently going down the rabbit hole around whether it's worth the extra $$$ to go to a place like Club Champion that focuses on exotic shafts, as well as PUREing, Spinging, etc. to optimize performance. This video (and your others) have helped me immensely to focus on what's really important. Thank you! PS: My favorite part of this video was the shot of your Yoda mug.
I appreciate it. The high end fitters are all about PUREing and unfortunately it makes me question all fitters because of it. I know there are good ones out there, but if you're trying to sell people on this sort of thing it calls the whole fitting into question.
That’s the challenge for so many of us…discerning what’s marketing vs. what’s really important to our game. Club sales are a booming business right now, and there’s a lot of $$$ to be made in “proper” club fittings (with all the bells and whistles they claim to bring). It has the vibe of the old “don’t mine the mine, mine the miners” approach. Anyway, all this to say thank you for the data-based insight and review. Enjoying your content.
@@EFGMC It is so quick to do that I don't charge an extra fee. I know it can't hurt. If it helps at all it is worth the minor amount of time involved. A separate issue is torque. That can make a lot of difference especially for somebody who squares up the face at the last split second. A shaft with a lot of torque won't come around to square instantly.
I've spined my shafts for a while now, whether it makes a difference or not I prefer that it is done anyway... Even if it doesn't do anything, it makes me feel better....😊
If you do it yourself and are happy with the results then why not. My main issue is with people paying for these processes, $20 per club or more.
@@EFGMC Yeah I do it myself, I've made my own clubs up for quite a few years now as I can't afford to pay retail for custom fit clubs, so I went for a fitting which cost me £30 to find what specs I needed and then assembled clubs myself... 🤓 It's been fun and I love it, it gives a real sense of pride playing with clubs I've made myself... 👌🏻
Very good video just started watching have learned alot you take the the BS out and help us amateurs that love the game and love doing thing there self. Thank you
Tube structure vibration engineering¡! Well presented. A bad shaft can't be refined. Period. Frequency matching old shaft to new shaft replacement is desirable. Actually with complex nature of head and shaft characteristics, getting a right match is like hitting the lottery.
I buy all my clubs from Value Golf. They 'plane align' each of my shafts to the 9 o'clock position from the driver to lob wedge. 😺
Interesting point. Never thought about way swing is only one oscillation and testing/Floing is not
I've got more arguments for this topic but didn't want a Ben Hur length video. Will save them for another time. Thanks as always for watching!
Thanks for the technical review. I totally agree if you want to spend the money no harm but not a big issue. Having said that then flex or frequency is the main issue that we should consider? How do confirm the correct flex of your driver graphite shafts at home?
hi, the best quality fly rods try to make the swing straighter and have the least side sway. It is something that is sought so that the line comes out as straight as possible.
Isn't that an idea that can be applied to a driver's swing? Try to make it have the least oscillation up or down?
Excellent video! Thank you
You'll see multiple additional small oscillations on super slow motion video through impact as the club moves through the turf and off centre hits, it will also flex at the start of the takeaway, watch the long drivers.
Admittedly, I've done this myself (never paid for the service). I no longer do it because I thought about it, and it makes no sense. What do club manufacturers offer in their drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids? That's right - adjustable shafts. Some of these adjustments can be up to +/- 2.5 degrees. That is a substantial shift, since material flex is exponential in nature. If it was crucial for performance, would recognize consistency errors when you increase/decrease loft on those clubs. The fact is you won't. Most of us "weekend warriors" are not going to experience any performance benefits because our swing mechanics are so inconsistent.
I could agree that it could be beneficial for irons, but purely from a feel standpoint.
I agreed with you. I’m not sure some other companies. Honma Co they done all SST before install all club.
That's a rediculous statement on adjustable drivers. When you change the head, is you grip on your club moved? If it has, your not not using your club right. The head moves, not the shaft.
The "removing" vs "moving" inconsistency really stuck with me. I used to be a believer in SST PUREing, but not so sure that I am now.
Very clear and insightful.
Thank you for taking the time to explain this hotly debated topic. Can I ask you about another one? How much of a difference, if any, is there between budget shaft (FST) vs expensive shafts (Nippon/KBS)? Would an average golfer even notice a difference?
Assuming you are talking similar weight and flex, most shafts are pretty consistent at this point especially steel. Most golfers would not notice.
Thanks for watching!
Thank you.
This seems counter-intuitive when most driver/hybrid clubs have a adjustable sleeve 😳
Which make me agree with your findings.
This topic always seems to come down to if you feel like it helps, do it. If you don’t care don’t do it. I’m not sure if I could notice it or not. I do it because I have a raw shaft and why not. Even though I do it I’m not convinced it does much for me.
Great video and great concept!
I think this video has sold me on doing FLO when building a club. My question is where can I find shaft vice like the one you are using in this video? I've searched most of the club building supply shops with no luck. Thanks in advance for your assistance.
That is part of my frequency meter setup. It's called the Club Scout. Not sure if the guy who does them, still makes them or not. Might try to search for it and see if you can contact them concerning the clamp section.
Great vid. huge thanks for this one.
I appreciate the thought and experiment parameters. But I have a question. Could you potentially construct a larger scale test where the shaft is flexed along a larger path? I am curious what a larger travel path would do to compound the drift off center. I am also curious if eliminating the release variable might have reduced the effectiveness of the test. The reason I say this, is that, to a degree, the slight variability of the angle of the load at the top of the swing, may activate the variability in the unloading of the shaft.
For instance, 5 * 0 = 0 AND 100 * 0 = 0
However; when increasing the variability by 1 (-1 to 1), the results are -5 to 5 and -100 to 100 respectively.
I am by no means discounting the test results, but I am certainly curious what the test would look like with longer swing path and variable releases aggregated and averaged.
Thanks for the video. I hope you are able to take this test further.
Your information is very helpful, thanks for sharing 👍👍👍
Thanks for watching!
Great video! What about shaft droop? The thing that bothers me is: The shaft will bend / droop more on a full swing and so it will change its dynamic lie compared to a half swing. Also the club face is deeper which makes it harder to hit the sweet spot.
That is true. However if you look at golfers swinging, the harder and faster they swing, the more the hands raise at impact as they are pulled away from the body in line with the shaft. It's probably not an exact match against the droop, but it gets pretty close.
The face is deeper, but the overall sweet spot is also much larger on that face than with any other club in the bag. Also I would argue that hitting above the equator on a driver is the optimal impact location, as it imparts greater launch angle thanks to the face roll, while at the same time dropping the back spin due to vertical gear effect.
AJ, I had a set of irons built by a master club builder 14 years ago. He’s no longer around, sadly. He FLO’d those irons and then we tested. The FLOing was for toe down effect and we used a golf ball that had been turned on a lathe and had a groove cut in it along with face tape. The ball was oriented in a 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock position to test strike consistency where you could clearly see the line in the ball imprint on the face tape. There was definitely a difference between FLO’d shafts and not, as far as consistency. That set of clubs was built in 2008 and I have purchased 8 sets of irons from top manufacturers since then ordering them with the exact same specifications and none of them are even close. It’s disappointing, I’m still playing with that 14 year old set of Adams Idea Pro Gold irons and can’t find anything to replace them. Not only was the strike pattern consistent as far as center contact but the groove axis was consistent also, no tilting like you would get with inconsistent toe down effect. It was never about “feel” for me, it was always about consistent center of the clubface strikes. I’m a believer!
Was the shaft aligned so the natural bend plane was in the 12 : 6 orientation (ie the soft side)? If it was that goes against how a pured shaft is installed.
My point being you may have found that the softer side improved your swing sequencing and delivery as you initiate your downswing. The problem becomes not every golfer will have that same reaction, so unless every golfer can find a builder with the level of knowledge that your's possessed, they may get very different results if they just paid for the "benefits" of pured shafts for example.
@@EFGMC I’m not really sure how he oriented the shaft, there is a felt tip mark under the grip tape oriented in the 12 o’clock position but I don’t really know what that signifies. He didn’t explain to me what he had done, that was his “secret sauce” if you know what I mean. Sadly few people could see the value in what he offered and were willing to spend the money so he ended up selling all of his equipment and the buyer moved everything to another state. There’s nobody else here that has the kind of knowledge and training he had. He was a follower of Tom Wishon and had trained with him.
@@EFGMC I think you may be right, I remember a few years ago having someone check them for frequency to try to match them. They’re DGSL R300 shafts but when measured with a frequency machine they said they were softer than an R300 “should be”.
@@EFGMC Where are you located?
@@davidcosten4722 So they could be aligned with the soft side up which would show lower frequency although the difference in a DG shaft is usually only going to be 2 CPM at worst. Could also be soft stepped / trimmed to play a touch softer in general and that could also be a big part of the equation.
Thank you for pointing out the snake oil👍👍👍🙏
Have my shafts all individually 'pured' or have all the logos on my shafts face in the same direction? No question about it, give me a uniform looking set of clubs anytime!
Great video! Thank You.
I actually did an experiment last summer with an iron shaft that went through puring. I did it in a Cobra AMP Pitching Wedge. In a steel regular flex shaft. I had my control pitching wedge and then in the head of a second Cobra AMP PW head I purchased the same shaft as my control PW and had it pured. Then installed. When I go to the range or to the course and hit both PW irons, I get the same dispersion and the same results. So I agree with you and your more definitive testing. Not worth the cost. Thanks again for this awareness!
Well done. Always like to see people not just buying the marketing and hype that comes with so much in golf. Plan on a video soon doing the same basic experiment you did.
Thanks for the support!
Spining and floing make such an imperceivable difference in steel shafts it is not worth the trouble. Graphite shafts are another animal entirely and it varies depending on the shaft and the application.
HI AJ!!!!! Great video. if you don't mind me asking what is the mechanism you used to hold the tip end down to make sure the club realeases at the same distance every time?
It's a gate latch I mounted to a steel plate.
oftentimes for aftermarket shafts the vendor already marks them, but the "optimal position" is always somewhat not inline with the logo. so I have been installing shaft based on logo position🤣 since look is always the priority. Now that I know it has no effect whatsoever, I can continue installing shaft like this with confidence.
True. Some companies check and mark the stiffest plane right out of the oven, then line the paint job off that point (or close to it).
that's really helpful info, I was guessing that they are measuring the shafts before decals are applied, they just never do a perfect job at it. I once received a kbs tgi that have so much residual bent it cannot roll on a flat surface at all, they pured that bent shaft as the markings are 90 and 180 degrees to the bent, not sure how it passed QC or heat damaged during shipping? I think that is the only time the puring would have mattered if I decide to use the shaft.
Hey AJ, I've been a follower since a few month and just recently built a whole set. It's a work of art, thanks to all the skills and techniques you have shared on your channel. Keep up the great work!
THIS video almost busted all my expectations, doubts and myths about spining and floing. BUT would the results of the floing test be any different if there would be a clubhead (with a certain weight distribution to it) attached and not testing the vertical but the horizontal oscillation? If not, I would never think about spining and floing again.
Hope you are having a wonderful day, cheers from Hamburg, Germany
That is great. Exactly why I started the channel. Thank you for your support!
Interesting video. How about doing one about MOI-matching?
Thanks for watching. Will add it to the list of video ideas.
Just what I needed to know
Thank you
Food for thought. Never thought of these processes as a means to make a poor quality shaft into a better quality shaft. Instead, I consider them as a means optimize consistency from one club to the next throughout, for exmple, an iron set. Personally, I find sensibility and rationale to them but in the end, if there truly is no benefit to said processes, then there is absolutely no down side to it anyway. Can't hurt anything and nothing to lose.
Sorry, but I hate this argument. If we can't prove any benefit, then we rely on the "can't hurt" argument.
That said, if you are doing the alignment yourself or someone else is doing it for free, then I agree that it doesn't hurt. However if someone is charging you $30 per shaft for this, that is where I have a big problem.
Thanks for the insight. It's exactly what I suspected. Question however, why does an overly flexible or stiff shaft regularly cause hooks or slices?
An overly flexible shaft can see more forward deflection at impact so the head is in front of the shaft. This can cause the head to increase loft and close slightly, which can lead to a hook.
A shaft that is too stiff does not offer any of this forward deflection so the golfer needs to square the face himself. They often don't which can lead to open face. However in many cases it's simply a matter of feel and how the loading or lack of loading of the shaft can cause the golfer to compensate in some way that results in a directional miss of some sort.
@@EFGMC
Thanks!
Thanks for doing this video. I have seen some very scientific tests but this helps to explain the real experience. Now I understand why the OEM’s don’t do these setups because it isn’t necessary. Especially Japan because they are so precise at times. I will not pay for these ideas.
Great video Ajay.
Great clarity.
Awesome video! Thanks for sharing
Appreciate it!
Very interesting video. My initial challenge would be that if you google an image of a loaded golf shaft at transition or impact, the forces showing and the bend on the shaft are a lot more than in the very short journey the shaft travelled in your test. Under that level of increased load and stress, a shaft could show a lot more of the inconsistency/wobble/circular motion?
I agree and for the sake of not having a 40 minute video which I know people don't like, I tried to really pair down my argument. My 2nd big issue with shaft alignment is that it functions under the assumption that the shaft only bends in one plane in the swing. This is completely wrong however since the shaft is not only bending during the swing but also rotating 80-90 degrees at the same time.
So what are you aligning the shaft to? That becomes the question since it flexes and rotates simultaneously.
Really what people should strive for with golf shafts, is having ones with the greatest radial consistency so no matter which way the shaft bends, the "feel" will be constant.
At least that's my take.
All great points. But for fixed hosel clubs, if this is something someone believes in so be it. But what about the adjustable clubs where the shaft gets spun around for different lofts and lies. The point of finding the up position at that point makes no difference at all correct?
If you wanted to do it, you’d have to decide on what hosel position to use, and then install the shaft with that setting. Like you said, you couldn’t change it after that without reshafting.
Read recently that a shaft was 98% symmetrical ( think it was a Diamana, but not sure). Don’t know of course, if that level of quality is universal, but I doubt that I could any abnormality in that shaft. But if a shaft was only 50% symmetrical, picking a number out of the air, I might want some alignment work done.
On the other hand, when Tom Wishon was at Golfsmith, they sponsored Scott Verplank for a year. They assembled several sets of irons for him, but he wasn’t happy with any of them, until they Pured the shafts. Across a set, does it assure consistency or overcome some manufacturing quality defect? Dunno
High quality graphite will be 99% hard to soft side symmetrical. Anything under 98% these days isn't great and I wouldn't use it unless we are talking about $50 graphite driver shafts.
If you want to see all about the consistency of shafts I would check out Russ Ryden's website
golfshaftreviews.info
Think its like $15 a year to subscribe but he measures most of the popular shafts on the market including EI curve, symmetry, weight, torque, etc. Lots of detail and helpful when trying to determine the differences between shafts.
Wish I could have seen this video before I bought new shafts last night and paid $23 a shaft to have them pured. I've been duped!!
Great experiment - would be interested to see the results if the load applied matched actual swing speeds i.e. greater load. Also, would shaft torque play a greater role? ... Lastly why do so many tour pros have pured shafts?
I would check out my other PUREd shaft video where I had actual golfers try and figure out the PURE aligned vs not shaft.
The number of tour pros who actually are currently using PUREd shafts is smaller than they present. Those lists include everyone who may have ever used a PUREd shaft so the list looks longer. Most importantly, none of them are paying for it and since it has no effect either way, I think they can convince some of them to do it.
Here's the other video,
ua-cam.com/video/EoTf0d-Aiz4/v-deo.html
@@EFGMC thanks for the follow up, looks like people are paying for a placebo/ false confidence … any gain is a gain 😊.
@@tomvaughan9846 A cheap placebo I am okay with. At $30 per shaft, we have a problem.
Just one question, do you have two swings? One for the outside golf course and the other for inside in front of the screen on the green driving rage mat? I have seen you in a few of your videos on the golf course taking big divots but no big bang sound on the indoor mat.
Excellent info
So does it matter then what orientation a not perfectly straight shaft is installed? I just bought new shafts for my woods and the middle lifts about 1/16th of an inch when I roll it in marble counter top. It’s polishes so I’m assuming it’s pretty flat.
Great video!
Yeah I've always wondered whats the point of aligning a shaft with an adjustable head.
It would only be aligned if you either never adjust it from where it was originally located or if you were using a Callaway club where the shaft does not rotate when adjusted.
thanks for this info saves me even more wasted time 👍
Could you show me the tools you are using for the Floing. Where could I find the weight & laser at? Thanks
The laser is from Golfworks.
So, what are the important specs to consider when you have a choice as to what shaft to buy. Obviously, weight and flex, but anything else?
I go in this order. Weight, balance (ie more tip heavy or counter balanced), flex, bend profile, torque. Price and color are influential, but I put them in a different category.